Where do you Want to Live? innovation, Data and Building the Cities of the Future

Dr. Amy Mueller and her team are measuring the vital signs of cities, gathering data that will inform future additions and improvements to our urban areas. How do we build cities in a sensible, sustainable way? Key to this work is getting communities involved and arming them with the information they need to make strategic decisions about the future.  Dr Mueller is an associate professor of marine and environmental science and civil and environmental engineering at Northeastern University in Boston.  She spoke at a "Town Talk" sponsored by Telluride Science and the session was moderated by veteran broadcast journalists Judy Muller and George Lewis.

Transcript

Science Straight Up

Season 4, Episode 5

Dr. Amy Mueller, Northeastern University

GEORGE:  From Telluride Science…this is Science Straight Up….

AMY: We're constantly changing our cities. So let's make each of those changes strategic.

GEORGE:  Where do you want to live?  Innovation, data and building the cities of the future.  I’m George Lewis…

JUDY: And I’m Judy Muller.  Dr. Amy Mueller (pron: miller) is an associate professor of marine and environmental science and civil and environmental engineering at Northeastern University in Boston.  She came to Telluride, Colorado to join in a series of workshops put on by Telluride Science.  And she shared her ideas with the community in a town talk at the Mountain Village Conference Center.

GEORGE:  Dr. Mueller says she believes in taking the vital signs of our cities..doing detailed measurements of things like air and water quality, temperature, wind and so on, even setting up networks of sensing devices to guide the way cities are modernized.

JUDY: One experiment she’s involved with…replacing old storm drains with new ones that are equipped with giant water filters.

AMY: So the history of stormwater sewers is that we didn't used to have them. We just had one set of sewers, and all of our municipal waste, and all of our rainwater was going into the same sewers. And what happened was, we were in every rainstorm, overflowing a whole bunch of poop out into our water. And then we decided that was probably a bad idea. So we try to separate out our sewers so that during rainstorms, the rain goes in one pipe and the poop stays safely in the other pipe and never the twain shall meet. But what it did then was accelerate the storm water just going straight out into the river and now we're getting these algal blooms. So now we're in the position of okay, directly rainwater pipe to the river is not also a great idea, and we need to continue innovating. 

NAT SOUND: (Charles River…guy on bullhorn and water splashing)

GEORGE: Which brings us to Boston’s historic Charles River, where the rowing team from Dr. Mueller’s school, Northeastern, regularly trains and competes.

AMY: The city of Boston has very little space left, and quite a lot of pressure to clean up our stormwater before it gets to the Charles River. So one idea that the city has had is in these big junction areas, instead of just putting a pipe, can we put what's the equivalent of a gigantic Brita filter in there. So we take essentially, they're like potato sack bags size full of activated carbon, they fill up the whole box, and then the storm water runs through there. And the idea is things we don't want in the river will hopefully get stuck to that activated carbon. So at the end of, you know, a year, two years, you take those out, you've taken out all the contaminants with them, you replace them, same like you would do with a Brita filter. So my job on this project is to ask, does it actually work? We need to know about the city would love to scale this up into lots of the sewers, if it works. So this is one of the projects my students are working on right now is how do we measure that. And so how we measure that means we go out in the field, every time it's raining, this is great field work, advertise it to all the students, you know, and we measure the water before this filter. And after this filter, we take those data back to the lab and we do a bunch of calculations to figure out are we actually removing the things that we want out. So this is one way that we can actually change the way that our city is affecting surface waters without using any more space.

GEORGE: Using available spaces in new and innovative ways raises some interesting questions for Dr. Mueller.  For instance, why not put gardens and green spaces on top of buildings?

AMY:  Why does our building need to have a roof on the top and not a park? Why can't it be an outside space that we also enjoy. And then if we have this extra green space, that is also affecting all other kinds of environmental aspects of that city, right, this green space is changing the heat balance of the city might make it cooler, in addition to being a place that we can enjoy, this has different implications for how people interact with the space for potentially what the air quality is like, and certainly for how that community looks and feels.// Can we measure what it means for a building to change its outside environment? So we have a few prototype areas where we've partnered with a city that has new construction happening, and we're measuring before, and then after these buildings get put in place? To see how is this actually changing the neighborhood, you know, not just for the business purpose of these buildings, but also for all of the residences in the neighborhood surrounding it. //Okay, so this is what I'm trying to pitch. The more we understand quantitatively, the more that we can make connections between changes that we have within our power now to make better cities, one step at a time. Right? We're constantly changing our cities. So let's make each of those changes strategic.

JUDY:  She’s also trying to pitch the idea that collaboration with communities is essential because unless they buy into the changes the experts are proposing, nothing gets done.

AMY: It takes somebody thinking about this from every different perspective from the perspective of the communities of the environment of the atmosphere of the architecture of the buildings. of the way that people move around in space and time all to be here thinking about how we leverage technology to make changes for the better. //So these are the people who are bringing a reality check to everything that we're thinking about in academia, right? //And it's been very humbling to work with communities to actually find out what is the important question for them. And so I think a lot about air quality, and water quality. You know, that's my personal bias. But when we have conversations with communities, what they often say, big intersections is, I'm worried that this crosswalk time isn't long enough for my grandmother, you know, or there's not enough parking for local businesses. And those worries are not something that I can personally fix. So it's an opening to a conversation of, okay, so then what what is the community concern in this area? And where is the space that we can work together? And is it a question around maybe redevelopment of this area, and we want to make sure that as buildings change, or as the road changes, the things you care about, aren't changing? And then so how do we measure that, you know, I have learned to not come to the table saying, This is what I already know how to measure. But instead ask what what do you want us to measure? And then how can we frame that question?

JUDY FROM TALK TAPE: Because if you take New York, for example, it's really not one city. It's all those neighborhoods that are different city. I see people nodding, obviously, it's been in New York. And so you have to take that into account. Right? It's not just one big massive solution, right? 

AMY: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think anybody who's lived in any city, you can imagine that one road, you know, that always floods even when it barely rained. And the people who live on that block, that's what they care about. And the people who live one block over, they might care about something completely different, like their neighbor who's always playing music too loud, or some bus that goes by really early in the morning. And so what we've tried to focus on right now is thinking about neighborhood by neighborhood, but even within neighborhoods, really what are people experiencing in the place that they live? And how do we help them get information that characterizes that if that's what they need to lobby to the city to? To change the infrastructure in a certain way, or that there's an issue that they they want to bring to the forefront, but as a society now we only bring issues to the forefront when there's a number, you know? And so how do we get those numbers for people so that they really understand? What are the conditions and are things dangerous or not?

GEORGE FROM TALK: I've read that Helsinki is trying to get rid of cars by 2025. That's something that would obviously have an impact on air quality. They're trying to do it through incentives for people to use public transportation, bicycles, other forms of transportation, they're trying to make it very easy, where you can just rent a bike or, or a scooter on your smartphone. How do you see that? Is banning cars from the center of cities, a viable option for reducing noise, traffic pollution, etc.

AMY: Viable, that people won't revolt? (LAUGHTER)

GEORGE: In London, people have been grumbling about the congestion pricing scheme that they’ve got going there.

AMY: Yeah, you know, I will say that the collaborators I have in the city of Boston are trying to think of a different name for congestion pricing, so they can try to get it through kind of a four letter word around here. I think that's, I'll take I'll take a line from one of my colleagues who, who specializes in pedestrian crossings and bike lanes. He's in the transportation sector. And his attitude is who decided that cars are the default? You know, at what point? Did we decide cars are the default? And and can we change that attitude? So I think that they're for sure, in terms of safety and noise. There is, for sure, you would see a change here. Although I guess if we go all electric cars, the noise issue turns into that angel humming issue. But when it comes to air quality, it's a little bit more complicated, because we also have all of these delivery trucks and other vehicles that still kind of have to go into the cities. So we were actually having that conversation today in our in our workshop. It's an interesting question.

JUDY FROM TAPE:  So a key component, back to the sensor. //So do you also plan to involve human sensors, as it were, in planning that what folks want in their neighborhood? I mean, how are you going to get this information? What they want? And how do you get? What are the sensors? How do you put them in?

AMY: Yeah, that's actually exactly what we do. So we usually the first year to year and a half of these projects is talking to people and asking, you know, what's happening in this area? What are you interested in? What are the challenges? What do you want this to look like? We have had the very interesting challenge of putting in proposals to funding agencies saying we will put in sensors, we don't know what kind yet, we're going to ask the community, you know, it's a little bit hard to write that science proposal. But we were lucky enough to have some of these projects funded. And that is exactly what it looks like is is having these community meetings and asking, you know, what's, what's going on? What are you interested in? And then using people as our initial data collection? So saying, Where have you made observations of these struggles? Were like, let's put a map together of where are the areas you're most concerned about? And then we use that as a guide.

JUDY FROM TAPE: I'm thinking of some neighborhoods where people wouldn't be so eager to volunteer to have their personal information, put out their personal calibration. I mean, how do you how do you convince people? Do you run into that kind of obstacle?

AMY: We absolutely do. I'll say that the one of the projects I'm working on right now, the the development of our one page flyer was the very first question that we worked on with our community partners was how do we explain what will and will not be measured? Because taking video and taking audio in lots of communities is extremely unwelcome, especially with the potential that it it might be asked for by law enforcement, it might be improperly used by law enforcement. So you really have to build trust with the community that you're there to help them measure what they care about. And that might be noise. It might be your pollution. It might be speeding cars, it might be, you know, littering, whatever it is that they're interested in, but that what you're measuring is not the people.

JUDY: Is that a hard sell?

AMY: Building trust is always a tough, slow process. assess, I will say I don't think that getting information about the environment is a tough sell. It's just making sure that you're on the same page about what that means.

GEORGE: Let me ask you about wastewater treatment for a

moment…

AMY: I would love to talk about wastewater… 

GEORGE: Okay. Some communities have proposed the idea of recycling wastewater back to the tap, so called toilet to tap, which is probably an awful slogan for a PR campaign. How feasible is that? 

AMY: Extremely. So that's how all of the water in Singapore is generated for drinking. And also, we have operating facilities in this country doing that. In fact, the first one that opened is in Texas, fun, fun factoid here. It is, I think, a more compact way of doing what we're already doing. You know, we have wastewater treatment facilities, and we have drinking water treatment facilities all over the place. And oftentimes, there's only you know, a few 100 feet or a half of a mile of dirt in between the two. And we're relying on that dirt to do some work for us. But we know how to do the work ourselves, also.

GEORGE: So when you're gathering all these numbers together, how important is survey research, getting the pulse of the community about..

AMY: Toilet to tap? 

GEORGE: Well, not only toilet to tap but about any of these schemes to modernize cities.

AMY: I would say extremely important, but that is not quite the space that I work in. So I'm lucky enough to be at the kind of information gathering phase where we're studying prototypes, and we're trying to understand if these things can work. And then usually the ideas get handed off to consulting companies or the cities and they're responsible for deciding will we make these things work?

JUDY: In addition to the toilet to tap, by the way, I did a story on one of those places in Orange County, California. And it was an osmosis, or is it reverse osmosis osmosis plant, and I saw the sewage plant, I saw the, the reverse osmosis plant, and they handed me a glass of water. And I will tell you, I mean, I knew in my brain that it was pure water. But I knew where it came from. And it's it's a big obstacle, I think, psychologically. First of all, get rid of toilets tap. That's a terrible phrase. But, you know, that's it's going to be a real education. Process, isn't it for for Americans to think about that.

AMY: So the engineering name for this is direct, potable reuse, direct, quotable, potable, horrible. Yeah. It doesn't really ring off the tongue quite the same way as toilet to tap.

GEORGE: So yeah.  There's evidence that global warming is accelerating, how worried are you that there may not be enough time to implement some of these changes?

AMY: He's really putting me on the spot there.

JUDY: What are you doing about that?

AMY: You know, I have to say, I think technology wise, we have an ability to reverse course, on climate change. Maybe it's just the it's the space that I'm in that I see the engineering solutions are, are there. I think we were at the policy stage where we're that's sort of where our roadblocks are. It's the way it's the way that I've, I feel about it. And so I think it's about us coming together. And having conversations and collaborating as a society to decide this is where we want to put our money.

JUDY: I've heard a lot of people say what the cities need are more trees. You know, we trees would really help cool the temperature. They make us happier to look at our streets…

GEORGE: And recycle CO2…

JUDY:  There you go. They're great. Is that an answer?

AMY: I can't be down on trees. But you're going there. All of those things that you just said are true, right? I think we have to remember that trees are living things. So they are doing a lot of other things as well, right? There are other folks in this audience who could speak to this question better than I can. But trees are wildly they tap into our water lines to get water because they're smart that way. They change the airflow in cities, right? We like trees in a forest because they're dampening in the wind. But in a city, you might not want the winds dampened because the wind is actually flushing the air out from between buildings. Trees also breathe in a certain way. That's not just inhaling and exhaling, oxygen and co2. There's other chemicals that they have in their metabolism the same way that we have other chemicals on our metabolism. So I still love trees. I'm still pro trees. But I think it's a more complicated question than just put trees everywhere.

JUDY: Do you want to put sensors out around the places where trees are being planted, to see more of what they're doing?

AMY: I think there are people working on that question. Yeah. Our sensors don't measure all of the important things that are part of the tree story. So we won't be able to answer that question with our studies. But it is something that I think is really important in understanding how we think about green space in cities.

GEORGE: I think we want to open it up to the audience for questions.

JUDY: Yes, we do.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'd be very interested in your thoughts about recommendations for mountain village or Telluride in general. And in particular, some of our transportation issues. This community is wonderful. And they have a dial a ride that anybody can access. And yet at the same time, every new house coming in here, over 5000 Square Feet has three or four different garages. So I guess part of my question is, how do you balance the community need versus the individuals need for? I want four cars, I want my boat, I want everything. Thank you very much.

AMY: That is a really tough question. And I think it's one that we grapple with at cities of every size. You know, even in big cities where we have public transit, if you have all of these buses, you have to have a bus depot somewhere. So that means that there's some community that has all of these diesel buses going in and out of their community constantly. And even though the public transit is good for everybody else, it's really bad for that one community. Right. I wish I had an answer to this question. I think I'm gonna fall back on we have to talk to each other. And we have to have a baseline of what we all agree is is is the goal. And maybe electric cars helps alleviate some of these stresses. But I think it's a really important question that's in front of all of us in designing cities is how do we balance those two things?

QUESTION FROM AUDIENCE: With the rise of remote working that we've seen since COVID began. There are several theories about how many office buildings cities will ultimately need. Are is your group, or are other groups of which you're aware, exploring these questions in terms of repurposing buildings as compared to just removing?

AMY: That is a great question that I unfortunately do not have an answer to. But what I can tell you is, at least in Boston, we are absolutely still seeing that there are fewer people coming into the offices. So my colleagues who work in public transit, said that the ridership on public transit and and on the roads actually is still down quite a lot from pre COVID. And this is mostly attributed to enabling remote work and a lot of offices now going to two days a week or something like that. But if you only go to two days a week, you're not giving up that office space. Right. So I That's a great question.

QUESTION FROM AUDIENCE: Are you aware of any work actually being done for noise canceling technologies to make cities more palatable to live in? 

AMY: That's an interesting idea. The only work I know of in that space is more about managing noise sources. So can we electrify systems instead of having them be combustion engines? And can we provide more noise barriers around streets and things like that? I haven't heard of anybody doing trying to actually cancel out the noise. It's a really interesting idea. Airports could use that for sure.

QUESTION FROM AUDIENCE: And I wonder whether there is a scope for a model city that implements all what we know and what we think is best to demonstrate that this is really better, and that modern cities can develop towards to, and that will accelerate the whole process, because the speed seems to be crucial in making transformations.

AMY: So is there space for something like that, I think, for sure, that could be a contribution to figuring things out. //And we still need to fix and live in all the cities we already have. So I think we need bridges that will get us there, even if we know Okay, in 50 years, when this system runs out. Now we know the better thing to put in, we're not going to do it now, because we don't have infinite money to replace our infrastructure early on its lifetime. So I for sure think it has a role in helping us figure out where to go.

JUDY: t would be great to see a model city that could incorporate all the things you're talking about as an example, Disneyland for scientists, you know, and we can all go and see how it could work, right? Disneyland used to have Tomorrowland, where they showed dishwashers, you know that was, but it's a thought.

GEORGE:  Anyway, I think that's about all the time we have, I'm afraid Dr. Amy Mueller, thank you so much for giving us some hopeful news about the cities of the future.

JUDY: How about a big hand (APPLAUSE)

GEORGE:  That’s it for this edition of Science Straight Up, and as we close, we raise a glass of recycled water to those cities of the future. We’d like to thank the Telluride Mountain Village Homeowners’ Association for providing our venue at the conference center, where our session was recorded live.  Dean Rolley of Dragonfire productions is our excellent audio engineer,

JUDY: Alpine Bank is a keynote sponsor of Telluride Science.  Mark Kozak is Executive Director, Cindy Fusting is executive manager. Annie Carlson runs donor relations and Sara Friedberg is lodging and operations manager. For more information, to hear all our podcasts, and if you want to donate to the cause, go to telluride science-dot-o.r.g.

I’m Judy Muller.

GEORGE: And I’m George Lewis, inviting you to join us next time on SCIENCE STRAIGHT UP.