The Simply Equality podcast
An open, honest and on occasions humourous exploration of the lived realities of disabled and LGBT+ people. In each episode I will talk to someone who is both disabled and LGBT+ and discuss the challenges they face and how they seek to live their best life.
The Simply Equality podcast
We're back in time for Pride with Pk Kulasegram
Hello dear listeners! Apologies for the long and unintended break, but we're back. And in time for Pride month. This is the first episode of the season and a very special episode in the life of Simply Equality. I'm joined by my business partner, Pk Kulasegram and while we briefly touch being a limited company, mostly this episode is a discussion of what it means to be queer and disabled and what Pride means to us.
The handle for the tiktok account we discuss is:
@madeline_pendleton
Do feel free to check out simplyequality.com
Hi, and welcome to another episode of The simply equality Podcast, the podcast that seeks to foreground the lived experiences of disabled and LGBTQ plus people. And first thing I want to say is welcome back. I'm well aware, it's taken much longer than I would have hoped for us to get back on to the schedule of podcasts. We are here, we're clear, and it's all good. This podcast is the first of what we're aiming to be a monthly release of podcasts carry on the format, all the good stuff you're used to. But actually, it's not just the first podcast for a while, that's actually a really special podcast because this is a real special time in the life of simply equality. I've got a wonderful guest with me today. That's a brilliant human in the form of PK could receive them, who will introduce you to in a minute, and we'll we'll ask them a bit more about them and their identity and how they fit into this healthy theme that simply quality is about, but they're also one of my co directors of simply equality. Yes, that's why we are now a legally Limited Company. We'll talk to you more about that in another occasion. But it's very much an idea that PK and I have heard about, let's let's formalise this and we're going to make it into a social enterprise and everything else. So what's this space multicom but that's enough for me. Welcome to the podcast PK Do you want to just introduce yourself, tell us a bit more about what's gonna go sell up like the side that's showing my age listeners. But PK if you want to just in your own words, and whatever, whatever you want to start, just tell us more about yourself.
Unknown:thing that they feel like it's always the awkward thing of knowing where to start with things like this, because it's what do you foreground first? You foreground you're sort of queerness and yeah, I'm of the generation where I feel fairly comfortable with that word. And then not everyone is. But like when I grew up, gay was much more of a slur. And that's what was kind of used to bully you get on that line? Or do you feel grounded sort of disabled pneus or in my case, sort of mixed race pneus and it's really hard to unpick all of those identities. So I guess in a nutshell, I mixed race. My dad's Malaysian my mum's British, my dad is also mixed race. So his mom was Chinese. His dad was through Lankan, I grew up in Malaysia, and in sort of very typical ADHD fashion. The reason I ended up in the UK is I met my current partner who, in true lesbian fashion, even though we're both non binary, came out to New Zealand where I was living at the time for our fifth date, essentially. And then we were there for like, a few months ago, I decided, okay, well, they're going back to the UK. So I might as well move back to the UK with them and bring my dog
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:fifth date. They went all the way to New Zealand. That's Wow, that's that's, that's keen. That's commitment. Yeah,
Unknown:no, I we had been sort of long distance dating by that point for about six months. Because we met when I was on holiday in the UK, visiting my gran, who is a difficult woman probably is the best way to fix it. And I just wanted to talk to preferably someone who wasn't racist. And yeah, sort of thought nothing of it. And then my partner is autistic and dyspraxia. And I very similarly hadn't brought a jacket with me because I was being tough. And so they lent me their coat. And I put my hand in the pocket. And there were these very smooth, very good textured pebbles. And I was like, oh, no, this person. And yet, we've just been together ever since
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:I have so peeker you do love are good people. They're so good. They just snap my shiny rocks.
Unknown:They're just my love language, good, shiny rock. Nothing is satisfying.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Sounds like another episode in itself, doesn't it? Gosh, there's so many angles. Okay, so how long have you been in the UK,
Unknown:I say got to the UK in 2018. And the first year was really tough. I had really bad problems with my back and mental health and hadn't got a diagnosis of ADHD or any of my other diagnoses. And was dealing with moving to a foreign country and really, really struggling to get a job. The only job I ended up getting was an Oxford and were based in Cheltenham at the time. So all of my salary was actually going on my commute. And then my partner was really struggling in their job. And I was like, Okay, we're both struggling. We hate the house that we're living in. I also like quite a rough year, like a lot of people sort of die by suicide or just died over the course of that year in my life. And anyway, we were just okay, well, I'm working in Oxford, you could apply for a job in Oxford and we'll just move to Oxford because like that seems like a better decision. We can afford to actually live in Oxford.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Who can who can afford to live in Oxford. I
Unknown:know every time I meet someone who's like, oh, I live in Oxford. I'm like, what? How usually I think it's roommates. Many roommates?
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah, absolutely. How are my case? bereavement? Gosh, there we are. That's what it takes to get to live in Oxford. Do you live in Oxford? You currently work at the University of Oxford? Full disclosure. For those who don't know, as do I? Yeah, how perhaps we got to be careful here. But you know, how do you find the world of work as somebody who's disabled and queer? I think
Unknown:when you are queer, and also disabled, or any other kind of marginalisation, you really, I mean, everyone understands the importance of a good manager, and having a manager who gets it. But I think it's really, really felt when you're marginalised in any particular way, because managers tend to be actually really good about a lot of the disability stuff. And I've started sort of approaching managing our relationship as being like, okay, like, we're just very clear about what we need. And I know that she does her best to like, get it right. And having a manager who does really wants to get it right most of the time, and does do her best to get it right makes it a lot easier for me to actually have those conversations and say, hey, look, I am Loki suicidal this week, or actually, my shoulder has fallen out of its socket. So I will be a bit slower this week than usual, I think some elements can be frustrating. But that's often less down to sort of individuals so much as the nature of an institution that's devolved with lots of processes. And some things that people think of processes that are actually just the way things are done. When you look into it. It's a bit like there's no paperwork to indicate that this is the policy. So don't understand why we're doing it this way. And I think to be honest, especially with a lot of disability stuff, and clearness, it's just fear of getting it wrong. And so it was trying to kind of say, to be honest, it's much better to do something and get it wrong than to do absolutely nothing at all for fear of getting it wrong. Because often like that's when the bigger problems happen. You just pass the buck and you let people down, and they slip through the cracks, because we're just terrified of doing the wrong thing. And we need people to hold our hands. And some things are just common sense when he comes up to you. And it's like, my medication is making me incredibly sleepy until about 11 o'clock in the morning, please can have a later start and a later finish. We shouldn't have to go to occupational health for them. So yes, that would be beneficial. It should just be if you can do it, and it's operationally feasible, we should just do it.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Gosh, I mean, look, this is simply equality equality made simple. You know, the bottom line of equality is a lot of it is just common sense and being decent people. And that obviously applies to managers. I think many of you listen to this, our line manager, oh, my gosh, it's not easy as it I fully realise there's a lot of pressure on managers, they've been asked to do a lot. And when it comes to things like disability and LGBTQ plus identities, I can understand why people are worried about getting things wrong. But really, if you take it back to its sort of essentials, as you've said, PK, it's just about a bit of common sense. It's like, okay, what is the individual need? can we accommodate this given the company we are the service we run? If so, yes, if not, what's an alternative? It sounds so simple,
Unknown:because it isn't, I think that's kind of the beauty of simply equality is it's literally stripping away the noise. And it's just saying, this is actually incredibly simple. In 90% of cases. Of course, there are always going to be some things that are complicated, but often like I think where complexity comes in is people feeling unable to be creative and curious in the approach that they take to dealing with disability or any kind of sort of systemic inequality at work, people sort of get bogged down into the bullet must be like this, and must be like this, and very prescriptive, because they as much as neurotypical have to pretend that they're very flexible and very good and adaptive that like most people just really want like a good, solid sort of this is what you do. And this is because we like clarity, which is you know, if you actually start getting disability right at work, and inclusion, right at work in everyone's lives is so much easier, like how many emails have we also we like, this literally could have been one email, or it could have been a team's message, let alone like 72 emails. And it's just like, we all waste so much time because everyone's like being unclear or communicating in a way that they haven't really factored in the scope of human difference. And it's just when we are inclusive, actually, everyone is just getting the best out of people. And we're just we spend so much time at work, it should be a place that you enjoy being not saying it'd be friends with all of your work people because like you can't like everyone. Now we're going to be some people who won't be there on why that's fine. But like, fundamentally, you should get some level of satisfaction in your job and you should have you should know that you're going to get your needs met and none of those seem like a big ask and yet often as disabled people especially it's treated like a huge ask,
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:absolutely. God always such a nuisance disabled people buy and it's just
Unknown:like, No, we're no, we're not a nuisance. You know, it is a nuisance, like having someone who, who refuses to understand that actually, you are just as capable as anyone else. It's just that you have additional barriers and if they addressed it, often the actual addressing of the issue would take five minutes for someone who didn't have that condition or impairment or disability and it would set up the person who does have this ability to do their job better. And that's kind of I think what people miss is it's a collaborative process. You're working with each other, and you're playing to each other's strengths, so there's a great TED Talk account that I follow. With the handle, well, we'll put that over the show notes. That's very clever. But yeah, she runs her business, like everyone has the same money. How it works is they hire for redundancy, which we don't really do anymore as a matter of practice following the 2008 crash, but they work in such a way that they they invest in people. So if and if someone's not good at something, they want to work on it, then they'll say it and help them work on it. If someone's like, I just really struggle with this. And it's awful. And they have enough people who are so cross trained that they can just step in and be like, okay, cool, you're really bad. At this side of things. This person is really good. This person is also good at this, maybe do something else.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Sounds amazing, right? Yeah. Sounds amazing. It's like, gosh, that sounds simple, which is the
Unknown:thing, it's just you know, that just has so on difficult to do. And also you think about it from like a career progression stage or leadership, right? If you're a big business and looking to scale this, then what you're kind of looking at is I've actually created many people who could fill in, if anything, went tits up, and someone in had got sick, or the deputy got to stick out and you don't have to worry about sourcing cover, I can just as the director be unwell, and there is someone who has my back. And I'm not worrying about the company being driven into the ground, because no one knows what to do. And I think you know, people get so scared of, you know, that tall poppy syndrome, and oh, but if they do too good, and they'll show how, like, I'm bad. And it's like, if you view it as you're all working together, and not everyone wants to climb a career ladder, or too many of us, but if like everyone has the skills to be able to help out, then you're just going to have a team who can take care of themselves and each other. And you know, you'll have incredibly low retention rate a low, low turnover is high, you know, which is what you want, right? Because like that's the easiest way to maximise profits, like recruitment and retention costs businesses so much money. And you know, lots of business will say, Oh, well, you know, salary isn't the biggest thing. It's also benefits. But realistically, you need both you need a good salary, and you need good benefits. And the benefits need to actually be good, not just you saying, We give you the literally statutory amount of leave a year. Like yes, you are legally required to give that to me. Yeah. You're just saying it in a way that isn't that?
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Absolutely. I mean, this podcast isn't not just to plug for simply equality. But but to be fair, come on. It's our podcast, we can talk about it. I think that's what that's our aim isn't pico is simply equality to try and model that best practice drawing, show how these things work. Okay, we might be probably at well, actually, no, Mike, we will get things wrong. But it's just trying to show people that inclusion matters inclusion works. It's simple to understand, yes, it may not be straightforward to implement some of it, but it is simple to understand. And I think that's a key thing when it comes to this realm of disability, LGBTQ plus equality, and obviously something that I wouldn't dare to speak about. But you can that whole racialization aspect as well. And we get so we get so bogged down, don't we?
Unknown:Yeah, I think that's the other thing is, to me, I think that often gets missed is actually all of this can be really fun. Oh, you said the F word. I know her at work. Because people are like, ah, is going to be all of this change in one of these challenges. And it's like, this is exciting. This is a great opportunity to actually have fun with it and make stuff that like people think of as just going through the motions. It's cool, it's exciting, you can do so many really cool things, when you're getting inclusion and embedding that just translate to the rest of your business. You know, it's a great space to be creative, and to just actually bring some joy into your work life. Like, you know, if I'm over having a life outside of work, I believe very strongly that this is important. But like, I also know that because of who I am, I have to enjoy what I'm doing. I can't work a job that I hate, or I will physically break. You know, and that sounds very entitled, I guess to some people, but also it's just like, we spend so much time at work. I don't want to spend most of my life miserable, and then get to 60 and think well, the planets on fire. I've spent 30 years absolutely miserable. life well lived, I guess
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:life well lived. And now I'm just going to die in a horrible fireball. That is the way the world is going. Oh, anyway, on joy. So that's obviously the side of things in work. But what about a little bit more about you individually? Um, so you've touched on the intro that you're you're non binary, you've mentioned that you have a diagnosis of ADHD. You've mentioned your intersectionality in terms of your racialized background, how does that all feel for you on a day to day basis? And and I was asked that question, you'll be like, Well, where do I start? But perhaps that's the key here that it shows us not a linear thing. But how is that all for you on a day to day basis?
Unknown:So I think it like really depends on the day, I guess. So like, I was having an interesting conversation with my sibling in Australia, because obviously, obviously, we're both disabled. My siblings always been called like the fat sibling. And like, if anyone is Asian listening to this, you will understand what Asian families are like about weight and weight gain. I was always like, incredibly skinny. And you know, so I would go to like my grandparents and I was also like, one of the favourite grandchildren, but like, would go to my grandparents and they'd be like, Oh, eat all of the things and then why are you so fat to like both of my sisters who were not like fat, they were just a normal healthy weight for children and it's not even like fat as a bad thing to be but that's a whole other thing. You know, like it's not really my place to speak on as like a very A skinny person still, but I was talking about how actually there was a really interesting thing of for so long, I felt like it couldn't come out about my sexuality to my family and about my gender. And weirdly enough, like I am actually out now to my Asian family as trans and non binary, they don't always like get it, right. But they are really trying. And it's just really lovely. Like, they're very Catholic as well, which is was part of the mix, love it, but like I was talking to my arm Roseland about kind of my feelings about it. And I was just like, you know, I don't want to tell you guys, because I thought that you wouldn't love me anymore. And like, we've only just sort of reconnected and, you know, I just want my message from the churches that like, you know, they don't like people like me, and my mom was just like, obviously, that's ridiculous, like, God, like, everyone's going to create it in God's image. So like, obviously, he would love you. And you're a good person that only people who are not welcome at church are bad people. Just like, you know, that's the kind of important I think message because I think lots of people have a spirituality and then like, when you kind of go through that understanding your sexuality, or gender or any kind of thing, the real there can be a disconnect. And like, I'm not necessarily like into mainstream religion, but I am a spiritual person. And like, just because I think it would be weird to me for like, there not to be something bigger in the world, you know, whatever shape that takes, and like it changes on the day for me. But yeah, the point of the story was an interesting thing is, I think it's almost difficult, more difficult for me to talk about, like sort of being physically disabled and needing a walking stick with my Malaysian family than it was for me to come out as trans or gay, and that my sibling was having the same because she was just like, well, and I'm fat, it's a huge amount of weight. And like, in most of their lives, she's really happy with it. But when you go home, it's difficult. And also, you know, they're very autistic. And they're in the process of unmasking, which is a lovely process to see as like an older sibling to watch my like, middle, small, sort of unpick who they are, and they're more physically disabled than me, you know, sometimes they might need a wheelchair, sometimes it's a rotator and the thought of having to navigate all of that with our family, who sort of just in the very basic terms of food intolerance is trying to be like, no, like, my aunt can't eat beef. So like she kind of gets if you're like, I can't eat beef, it makes my stomach really sad. I can't really digest fruit and I go straight through me to not paint an overly visceral picture. Not a good time. And my art is thankfully very, like they I think they want to do right, they just don't always get it. But yeah, it's this interesting sort of thing of depending on the circumstance, something's way higher. So obviously, at the moment being trans in the UK kind of hits the front because I am not trans feminine. I'm trans masculine and non binary. And most of the time I seem to pass for at least a teenage boy.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:I have to say, I obviously have my pico interview occasions. What quite an interesting combo for those of you that haven't met me in person. I am tall. I'm six foot three white cane, and pica is different to that, aren't you?
Unknown:I am by foot for a fairly reasonable moustache at this point.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Yeah. It was so good for the facial hair like yeah, it's
Unknown:starting to come in there. But I also you know, likely have EDS even though I haven't noticed there's
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:a whole thing but yeah, this was Ehlers Danlos Syndrome. Yes,
Unknown:thank you. So my face is incredibly useful, but I'm also like half Asian, so I was always going to age incredibly slowly anyway, like I'm about nine months older than my partner. One everyone thinks my partner is taller than me and they are an inch shorter than me. And to yet Everyone just assumes that order and it's just like, No, I am like, I got a deed to pick up a game for my sister for Christmas. It was the 12 and up
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:no one should never realise but I do know you are significantly older than 12 Well,
Unknown:you know, I'm very I'm proud of being in my 30s Like, partly because I enjoy the look of despair when you tell people that you're in your 30s Oh my face but like, you know, I like getting older my 20s is like 30 has not necessarily been a picnic but for the most part I think this sort of comes back to the initial question getting an ADHD diagnosis was really life changing because I got meds and even pre that I had borderline personality disorder disorder diagnosis which people have a lot of feelings about as a diagnosis and personally like it's not particularly helpful to have feelings about the diagnosis at least for me like it gave me a framework they gave me access to complex needs, which is like group therapy specifically for personality disorders on well as an institution I think that Loki ablest and yelled at them quite a lot for being a plus it was really transformative in conjunction with other therapies I was doing at the time. Also group therapies, which worked really well for me prior to that this option I've been given was to Tyler pram which made me stop sleeping for like, because it was an SSRI, and then I respond to what hasn't been, which yes, I gained weight works much better. And that's because it targets norepinephrine, which is the dopamine stuff, which is what you don't have, if you've got ADHD, for those of you who don't know, similar to the chemical bits of ADHD, there's some background for you, but sort of having that meant that I wasn't having to fight my brain. And so I always like I'm a big advocate of at least try medication if it is right for you, because I think we get so much rubbish about medication and there's so much sort of taboo at all. If I'm taking medication, I won't be myself. I should really be strong enough to get through this without and say, Okay, well, if you were diabetic and you needed insulin, absolutely, that's not some kind of moral failing. But I think that's so much tied in ableism of like, if you need something to help you be autonomous or independent, then that's some kind of feeling. And it's like, no, it's just giving people the tools to actually live life and be valued. And so yeah, for me, finding the right medication, and then getting on ADHD meds for the first time in my life, I could like relax and stop and disengage. And rather than looking for a fight all the time and being angry, I could just be like, Nah, I'd like that. I can stop. That's okay. And then yeah, like for my 30th birthday, we did a GoFundMe so I could have gender affirming surgery. And once I had that, and it was just my favourite pun to make there's just a weight off my chest. Oh, right. And yeah, it's been great and life changing. And like, my mom was really concerned about me before I went to have surgery, and was worried about grief. And like, my mom is supportive. She tries her best, but she says And so like trying to kind of explain that it wasn't a loss. I think it's a running joke where you can have kind of conversations with trans people about this. And even if it's not like even if you're talking to say, like a trans woman, I can sort of sit and explain this in a way that I couldn't see someone who was cisgender because you would just get it and be like, Oh no, I get like what that is, you know, there's like all the funny kind of offhand comments like how you explain gender to sis people and it's kind of like paint by numbers and then I'm eating the teats.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Honestly, I think there should be a trans swapped shot. It's like you went with your boobs? Can I have them right? Just say what my name is. Okay, there
Unknown:you are. It'll be so good. It just be like, hey, like you know if this is the bit that you want, and this I don't want like go for it have my weird lump of yellow sack who? I am not going to but like yeah, what they don't tell you about and this is like a weird sort of intersection race is like nipple pigmentation and like going back because it doesn't come back. It does. It takes a long time. And it can be patchy and it might not always get to like the level so it's like very odd to be like my nipples are the wrong colour for about a long time. Wow. And also just like how long it takes sensation to come back. Your upper body
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:goes to a whole other podcast series, isn't it? Yeah. And and and probably also as disabled people and medication and surgeries that you need. But how that messes around? I have a you have to go off set and Medicaid Gus, that that's how I love the podcast. We could do some time isn't that big guy? Yeah, we should definitely did. Oh, gosh. And just just as that sneak preview part of this going forward with simply equality, we probably aren't going to do a few more topic based podcasts that that's our thinking, isn't that?
Unknown:Yeah, I think so just kind of discuss specific topics. So if you have suggestions, feel free to absolutely. And give us a topic, and we will talk about it on future episodes.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Absolutely. So obviously, it's no coincidence that we are relaunching the simply a quality podcast and redoing the simply quality.com website June because obviously, it is pride month here in the UK, and actually quite globally. So we've talked about you as an individual, we've touched a bit upon, you know, being disabled and queer work and what the challenges and issues are there. What about pride? He has a nice big eye opener PK, what does pride mean to you?
Unknown:I mean, like, it always sounds very pithy, but like pride started out as a riot. And to me, that's still what price should be, especially at this point in history. You know, I think there's discussions that come up every year around pride within the community that quite frankly, I'm so bored of having what are they does kink belong at Pride. And I'm just like, obviously, it does like this. These were the people who were there in the beginning fighting for our rights, who have always been a, the more we gate, keep people out of pride, the more pointless it becomes, as far as I'm concerned. I mean, I think there are some people who should possibly not be at right, and maybe that's the police. But like, that makes sense. Okay, so good posts, which was just like, if you're a policeman marching at Pride, you should be willing to go for back for the queer people who were there and to enforce, you know, and that means if your fellow police officers start, you know, hurting any of the people that then you should be pushing back against them. And if you're not willing to do that, then you shouldn't be there. And I think that's fair. I and also so many people, you know, as a community, we've got not a great relationship, especially if you add disability on to that or any kind of racialization. But yeah, in general, pride for me is needed. It's necessary, sadly, still 2023 it should absolutely be a celebration of queerness and LGBTQ i plus identities and the full spectrum of like, what that looks like. And we should also acknowledge that there are intersecting identities that often don't get welcomed at Pride. So so much of pride isn't accessible for disabled people. Totally, though, there was a year where pride was just to had an all white line up on the main stage. And I just think, come on, like we can't move forward without intersectionality we can't have pride if not everyone is welcome. And you know, we're never going to be able to necessarily create a space that is but we should at least have things in place that make it so that people can come in and out as an easy fit, and it's safe for them to do so. You know Have a quiet area so that if you need a break or you're triggered or whatever, make sure that people are aware of don't touch someone else's service style. He is working what like this is he is he's got a job when he is on his break, and the owner has said you can touch him or her by all means, then go make a fuss of the door. But until then leave it alone. He's basically not a thing. He's just got, you know, like, if you see someone who's in a wheelchair, don't just grab the wheelchair and push them. Oh, well,
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:I've heard people say that
Unknown:in the same way that you would I mean, in fairness, I say in the same way that you wouldn't just grab someone and like physically move them having been grabbed and just like put him somewhere, like in the past because I am very small, but will be like, Ah, yes. And it's just like, Um, excuse me, you could have just said excuse me like, this was this was also an option, sir.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:salutely. I think it's really interesting. I think certainly seen over the past few years, that emphasis on trying to make private events more accessible is slowly gaining traction, I think there's still a long way to go. Actually just just a quick plug for another organisation to show it's not just about simply equality, but I've also done some work with power PRI, and they have a great charity at the do a lot of work around the actual accessibility of queer spaces, great to see them getting involved with various pride organisations, that they're not involved. But I know it's great to see our pride here in Oxford, there's been things like, yes, we are having that quiet space. I believe that having BSL on some of the main stages and things like that, that one hand is fantastic. And the other hand is like it's 2023 Come on people.
Unknown:Ha ha. Yeah, I think the
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:queer people have existed for a long, long time, and we ain't going anywhere.
Unknown:And honestly to be I guess it makes sense that like lots of people who are disabled or otherwise marginalised would also be queer in some way, shape, or form, because you are so different from what is expected to be normal, quote, unquote, which, you know, is a rubbish concept anyway, but like the standard, the society sets, that of course, you're going to sit and then interrogate and actually kind of be retrospective about what you are, and be open to the fact that Oh, actually, you know, for me, it took me ages to sort of accept Oh, no, like, I'm not straight, because I'm very good at being straight by and performing being a girl, even though neither of those were who I was, but like a part of that is, yeah, you just you have a sort of thing of, you know, and there's that toxic sort of, I'm not like other girls thing. People love to do, and I was very much that kind of person. And then you know, I've grown up and been like, oh, wow, that's garbage. And you know, work. And the more you learn, the more you can kind of like unlearn and be like, Oh, actually, like, yeah, a lot of stuff that I thought was ablest because we live in an ableist society, and I need to unpack that internalised ableism, you know, and be like, Oh, I'm not lazy, or useless or whatever, which are my bad days, I will still be like, Wow, you're just such a useless crap. It's just like, oh, wait, no, it's just I don't have dopamine and executive function is difficult. And you know, there's probably autism in there somewhere. Like we'd now joke that it's my latent autism that comes up, that my partner and I have a running thing that people often make when you meet us, like, no one was expected that I am the one who has a very strict categorization of my books, and they're in like a very specific order, and I've taken a lot of care whereas Charlie organises by vibes, oh, by vibes, I like that. Okay, you and Charlie can organise it
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:is that you have a vibratory
Unknown:that is excellent. They basically do have a library. I have to be like, No, I just No cannot be doing it. But we worked out the other weekend. I said, No, I just need plans. Preferably I need to be in charge of the plan. Yep. And then that's fine. Whereas Chinese, like I've left the house, what will happen will happen. But if you know, when people meet us, they're always like, oh, PK is clearly the chaotic person. It's just gonna be like, like to do anything random. He's gonna be the very, like, rigid and set in their ways.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Wow, gosh, this podcast could be so long. However, listeners probably don't want to listen to this forever. If you do tell us and we'll do more, we are gonna do more. But see, you know, pride disabled queer. I normally ask all my guests about perhaps the what's the one or two things that you think the disability and LGBTQI plus community could learn from each other? And it gets it for focusing on the whole thing of pride as a protest as a via, you know, what, what do you think we could do and learn from each other to push things forward?
Unknown:So I think to be honest, like, there's a lot to be learned from, like, disability community and like that first, like kind of thing is that stuff is complicated, you know? And also, actually, if we plan for access actively, we're making sure that pretty much everyone can attend pride. And you know, so if you think about disability kind of organisation, like most disabled people are very, very good at mobilising in online spaces. And I think it's really important, but the LGBTQ plus community as well, and some people are quite good at this to recognise that actually, like online mobilisation is a vital part of modern day protesting and keeping people safe during the kind of BLM protests in 2020. While there were people physical On the streets, what was also happening where there were a lot of and sometimes disabled people, you know, working how they could to keep people safe. And that was looking at police cameras because they're publicly accessible, and coordinating people on the ground to say, hey, look, this is coming like, and that's the kind of thing is it? I think unlearning ableism and looking for that helps you kind of then better participate in society in general, and actually work out how we fight for trans liberation, lesbian, ERATION, gay, bisexual, etc. Because so much of how ableism functions is by broadening what is a disability. So, you know, gender dysphoria as a diagnosis was a mental health condition. And that gets weaponized. Usually, having an early version condition when you're trying to get any kind of surgery gets weaponized, because all of a sudden, you can't consent to this, but you can definitely consent to joining the army or getting married. This this procedure Oh,
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:no, this is different than your your
Unknown:to, to easily, you know, influence. So thing, that's kind of the big lesson. And I think in the disability community, it's kind of and I think both communities have this to learn is that moving necessarily away from assimilation and embracing, like the difference and diversity in us. And I think not necessarily being like, Oh, if you're disabled, you must only talk about disabled stuff. If you're LGBT, you can only talk about this stuff. And it's like, okay, but there are so many people who are both. And I think remembering that there are so many people who are both is probably the most important lesson to learn. Because it just means that you can go to a disability space and feel really unwelcome because everyone is talking as if you're straight, or says, we can go to a queer space. And the first thing you do is you can't get there because I don't know take take Oxford, the only gay club in Oxford is now a flight of stairs with no lift, you know, and students had a huge uproar when it happened. But that was the kind of thing of you then keep people out of your community who have been there from the get go? Like we we should always be in each other's corners? Because a lot of us sit in both those spaces.
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:Absolutely. Yeah, at least those two elements, and there's probably a lot more. Yeah. And I think, you know, for those of you if you're new to the assembly equality podcast, if you go back and listen to some stuff, for the first few episodes, I talk about why I formed simply equality because of my own experience of living with disability, in my case, visual impairment, then tell the blindness, some of the physical issues and then coming out as trans. It's like, Oh, I thought I'd understand what it was like being both but actually, I found ableism in the LGBTQ plus community, and vice versa. And I think things are slowly changing. It is being recognised on what we want to do with simple equality, but there are others doing it as well. And I just think, you know, the more we can include that this is where we're going to sound naive, but we believe that what became, the more he can include everybody, just the better it is for everybody. Yes, there's gonna be some complexities for that. But in essence, if you just start from a premise that people are complex, and wonderful and beautiful and different, and probably not like you from similarities, but that may be different in other ways, and think about, okay, how is this thing going to work for somebody who is neurodivergent? Or has mobility issues? Or was trans was gay? Or was being me? You know, how's how's that going to work? I think it's just getting outside that comfort zone and think that everyone's like us.
Unknown:Yeah. And like the last thing you want to be honest as everyone to be like us, right? It just, you need that difference, because then you can grow. And that doesn't mean we should tolerate intolerance, or bigotry. Because that's, I think, the fundamental difference there, right, between, you know, we talk about inclusion, and people are like, Oh, well, if you're saying that everyone should be welcome at work, then then obviously, we can just be Nazis at work. And I say, No, when you say everyone should be able to be themselves at work, we're talking about the stuff you cannot control, you can't opt into opt out of. So that might be the way you'd love that might be who you are as a person that might be the colour of your skin. That might be how your brain works. You absolutely can control being a bigot, being a bigot isn't choice, and you can just choose not to be a bigot. It's as easy as that. What a revelation. You know, and yeah, and that's the whole point of kind of simply equality and equality in general is it should be accessible, which is partly I think, why you and I both use equality rather than equity. Also,
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:well as another podcast, right? Page.
Unknown:Yeah, just if we actually have an environment where everyone can thrive, it's so much better and it's a more interesting world. Like, you know, I don't want to hang out with just me all the time of God and
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:drive myself crazy, right?
Unknown:I like different it's, it's fun. It's exciting. It's novel. And yeah, the more we embrace it, the more of an interesting and exciting world we have that works for everyone instead of a very select few people
Sarah Stephenson-Hunter:to know I think that is a perfect place to end it's almost like we planned this, which dear listeners, we don't script this where you can probably tell in some ways, I think that's a great place to end. I think PK been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast. Watch our listeners. You're going to hear for more from from both of us going forward. I really hope you've enjoyed this episode. If Give her Don't forget to share and like and do all those things that people tell you on podcasts. Also, if you haven't checked it out yet, you can check out www dot simply equality.com There have been some changes there. There will be more to come. But yeah, just thanks, everybody for listening and have a great day wherever you are. Thanks bye