The new person behind the person!

For this Pride month we thought we'd celebrate by giving you a very special one-off episode!!  In this episode we speak to a previous guest from way back in Season 1 and speak to Che Stephenson-Hunter, Sarah's wife who has recently come out as non-binary.  In this episode Che talks openly about some of the challenges they've faced coming out later on in life and why they believe this time is the right time for them to embrace their authentic self.  It may only be a short episode but there's a lot packed into it so grab a cup of your favourite liquid and listen on!

Links to items referred to in the episode are as follows:

Previous episode featuring Che :
Buzzsprout

Che's Substack: https://open.substack.com/pub/chestephensonhunter?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=38n7pk

 
Che's top surgery fund https://gofund.me/44c2ed02

Laura Scarrone Bonhomme 

Consultant Clinical Psychologist

Gender, Sexual, and Relationship Diversity Specialist

Co-Founder & Director at Affirm 

https://affirm.lgbt

Skunk Anansie

https://open.spotify.com/track/1gQqkCXLsxsSSNUz6Cx02N?si=gUuV6rdLRfKgWXweO1e18A

Che's photo website Home (dorizmedia.com) 

 

Transcript

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 0:20

And welcome to another episode of The simply Equality podcast, a podcast that seeks to foreground the lived experiences of disabled and LGBTQ plus people. Those of you that have been following this podcast for a while will be aware there's been quite a gap between Episodes. That is something we're going to rectify, but for now, this is a Pride Month special, and we've got a special episode in store for you. Again, if you've been following the podcast for a while, you know that when I started this podcast, I spoke to a range of people who came on and talked about their their experiences, their life, their journey, and their disabled and LGBTQ plus identities. One of the people I spoke to was my wife, yes, keeping it in the family, and I thought that being as its pride, I would do a bit of an update. So I'm going to welcome on to the podcast my wife, Chai please. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Unknown: 1:42

Hello. My name is che Stephenson Hunter, and yeah, I'm back a bunch of different guys.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 1:49

Yeah, for those of you that have listened to this podcast for a while, you may be aware that the previous episode was called the woman behind the woman. And in the episode, I spoke to che about their identity as a lesbian, as somebody who was neurodivergent and who had a range of health conditions. But as you'll have gathered from the intro to this podcast, a few things have changed since then. Che tell us a bit more about the journey you've been on,

Unknown: 2:21

the journey that I've been on. Well, firstly, my name has changed. I'm not going to share my name if you want to know my name. And my previous name is, go back to, I think it's series six. Episode Six. Episode Six. Series one, and you will hear the woman behind a woman we're now going to call this episode. I think the person behind the person I love that, I love that. And the reason we're we're calling it that, is I have recently come out as non binary, and it's been a lot of soul searching, a lot of exploration and a lot of acceptance on my part to get to this point. However, after working with some fabulous people, I've actually understood that I felt this way since the age of eight.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 3:11

I mean, wow, what a what a little chunk of audio there with so much to unpack. I mean, you say you felt this way since you were eight, but obviously here you are 51 I can reveal your age. I've done it now. Yeah. Thanks very much for that. Please don't slap me. Why? Why now,

Unknown: 3:36

as a very good person, said to me during therapy, said to me, the time was not then, but it is now. I wasn't right then, and I am in the right place mentally, physically, emotionally, to address that journey now, if I'd have had all the obstacles to overcome then, as I'd had a lot of obstacles to overcome, which were unpacking as we go on my on my journey, myself and Sarah, um, I wouldn't have been able to have got to this point because I did not have the support around me.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 4:13

And again, if you want to hear more about Chase past journey and the issues, then do listen to the past episode, just just for those of you that that haven't listened, and just as a bit of a recap, I mean, chair, you won't mind me saying you had a pretty rough childhood, lots of issues with parents, mental ill health, and your 20s, all sorts of barriers and obstacles. And again, we don't want to rehash all of that, but has has coming out as non binary changed the way you've seen any of those past experiences with your your family and first coming out as a lesbian in your 20s?

Unknown: 4:54

I think when, when I'm reflecting and going back to how I was, I I. I know that I never fitted as a woman. I know that I never fitted as a lesbian, but a lesbian was as close as I knew to understanding where I fitted at that point in time, if I go back to when I was the age of eight, I asked my mother why? I mean, I'm a twin and I have a twin brother. I asked why I couldn't be born the boy and he the girl. And was told I was stupid. Is that what you were told you were stupid? I was told I was stupid on numerous occasions beyond belief. I also was I wanted when, when I started to develop breasts, and he started to develop his Adam's apple and voice change, I wanted that. I didn't want his penis, but I wanted the the Adam's apple and get rid of my breasts. But I was also, again, told I was stupid. You're a girl. Get on with it. So there was no understanding at that point. There was no and there was nothing. There was no social media. There was no, you know, internet. There was nothing to explore. And obviously, at the age of eight, I wouldn't want a a child of my own to be exploring, but I would like them to be listened to. And I think when people say, How do you know, when a young person comes up to you, how do you know? Bloody hell you know. And actually, from me sitting down and reflecting on my life, if only somebody would have listened to me, then my life would have been different. However, the path that I've taken, I believe, has been laid out for me. And I'm not saying about God and stuff. Like, if anybody knows me, I really do not believe in God. But I think, I think there are certain avenues are we are supposed to meet certain individuals. We are supposed to, you know, go down a certain path. And I think if I hadn't got to the path that I'm at now, then I couldn't be my authentic self. I

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 6:57

mean, amazing. I think that that point you said about because people say that now, how, how can a child of eight know these things? You know? How can they know anything? But I think you make that important point. It's about listening to the child you may not understand it.

Unknown: 7:14

And do you know when? I mean, let's just, let's just think back to when any of us were children, and whether you're gay, straight, or you know, whatever, you know. You knew if you fancy a boy you fancy a girl, you knew if you had an attraction somewhere. So let's take about you know, identity, about but let's talk about you know sexuality. You knew if you're attracted to somebody at that a very, very young age, but you because you're not allowed to put a name on it. You're not allowed to say because how do you know now, through the work that I do, I know that young people are experimenting from a very, very young age, and it frightens the hell out of me, but we need to listen to the young people of today like the young people of yesterday, weren't listened to.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 8:04

And again, just for those listeners that have never met you before, What? What? What do you do? I'm a children's social worker. And massive round of applause. I'm not just saying that because I'm married to a children's social worker, but gosh, do they do an amazing job, and they're under a lot of pressure, so you're probably, well, I know you are acutely aware the discussions around children and gender identity and sexuality, and we've got to be careful what would teach them and expose them to because you know you're going to tell them gay and trans. What do you say to that?

Unknown: 8:35

Well, all of those, the education lessons in school, didn't turn me straight, and they didn't turn me into a female. That's all I can say.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 8:45

I mean, there you are.

Unknown: 8:48

Because we never learnt about gay relationships. We never learnt about alternative identities. When I was at school, we learned about heterosexual and that was it. It didn't turn me heterosexual.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 9:00

No, indeed. I mean, we'll touch on the sexuality bit in a minute. So here you are, you've, you've, you've come out as non binary. And again, just for listeners, What? What? What does non binary mean to you?

Unknown: 9:14

To me, I mean, and they can it can be mean a different facet of things for lots of different people. So for me, I don't fit either male or female stereotypical areas. I fit somewhere in between. I think I lean towards the more masculine side rather than the feminine, but I still fit in between. I never want a penis. That's, that's, you know, that's, that's, you know, that's just, I don't, I don't Boyd. Would I want one of them crying out loud? But you know, that's I know that deep in my head, right? That I really don't, but the one thing that I really need gone are my breasts. I have not wanted my breasts since the age of eight, when I started to develop and I desperately want them gone now.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 9:57

And I think again for some people listening. Who are allies or just not quite understanding that might be hard to hear. You know, we know about people that have breast removals for cancer and other medical issues, but voluntarily want rid of your breasts, and

Unknown: 10:17

that's because what I see is not how I identify. So I don't want to look like a man, but I need the silhouette to be different. I don't like looking down on what I've got there. And think if you're not, nobody's ever going to get me that. Sarah, you don't understand why the hell I want to get rid of my breath. Come

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 10:40

on. I mean, look, I Yeah, all right, I'm a lesbian. I love boobs

Unknown: 10:44

Exactly. So you you don't understand why I want to get rid of a breast, but you understand that actually, for me to be my authentic self and be my whole self, that is something that is really, really important to me. And you know how, how important this is to me, I can't describe them words. I need the buggers gone.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 11:04

And again, I do understand, because again, for those of you that know me, I am a trans woman. I did have gender confirmation surgery, so I've had similar surgery. And some people, why? Why do trans women have to go through surgery? And why do you want you really appear this and all that? Because it's just not part of the body that I want to have

Unknown: 11:29

you want. It's actually you need to have. It's not about a want and a I want to go to the supermarket and buy some clothes. It's not a want like that. It's actually a desperate, innate need to have that to be you. And it's not. It's far, far wider than what.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 11:50

And again, not, not wishing to trivialise this, but don't you just wish there was like a trans body Swap Shop where we could just swap body parts, yeah, but

Unknown: 11:59

you've got big anyway.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 12:04

Okay, that's me put in my place. I mean, sticking on the subject of boobs. Sorry, I can't help it. You've talked about growing up, you've talked about childhood How. How did you feel about all that? Then, particularly, as you started puberty and body started to change.

Unknown: 12:22

I've actually started doing lots of writing, so if anyone's interested, they can have a look at my sub stack.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 12:27

We will put the links in the show description. Very much, and that explains

Unknown: 12:31

quite a lot. I was mortified when my breast started to develop, and when I got to 12, I started my period, and I cried, and my brother laughed hysterically. And my brother, my mother, told me to get on with it. Is what it is. Deal with it. So I did deal with it. And I dealt with it by going into a lot of sport and getting really, really into sports. So I was into, you know, every team that I could be into, to just and I fit in a, in a, in a way that felt right. I don't know what it felt better than. Probably felt better than wearing a skirt in class and, you know, doing all the mundane stuff, and I could wear leash, I could wear my shorts and T shirt.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 13:18

I mean, again, we have had a discussion before. Che has agreed to answer these questions. Some people might hear that and think, Well, why? Why couldn't you just be a more mask, but lesbian? Why do you have to say you're non binary? I

Unknown: 13:36

was always classed as a tomboy at when I was younger tomboy. Why didn't they identify that? You know, I may not have fitted the non binder binaries that you know have always existed. I am not a butch lesbian. That's not me.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 13:51

I can agree they are not I.

Unknown: 13:57

I am me. I'm non binary, and it's not taken away. You know, there are some people that are in the lesbian community, like trans people are turning people, turning lesbians away from being, you know, being lesbians and making them non binary or trans. You can't make anybody anything they don't bloody want to be or desire to be. Um, this is about, actually, we are talking about it far, far more. And if we'd have talked about it when I was eight, and there have been the understanding when I was eight, I would have transitioned, then there's no, there's no doubt in my mind, that's what would have happened.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 14:36

I mean, what? What would you say somebody listened to this, who's perhaps a lot younger than we are, and or what? Let me rephrase that question. What would you say now, at the age of 51 to your 12 year old self,

Unknown: 14:52

I would say to myself, the time was not right then, but it is now. And the reason I say that is because the there were not the. Support Services around. There were not the support networks around within like family. However, if I was to say this to a 12 year old living in the day and age now, I would say, seek support. There is support out there, and although there are the nasty turf bigots out there, the government, the complete and utter and I am going to rant the F out, because there is no need for them to be spouting the trans hate that they are so adamant on trying to get bloody votes off. You know, let us live. And for those young people out there, I would say, seek that support. There is support, and there are people that understand and will listen. And if I was heard, then that would have made the huge difference.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 15:50

And again, for those that are listening, think wider. Why do LGBT Q plus people have to be political? Well, our existence is political. Again, we won't, we won't get, I won't get too

Unknown: 16:02

political. I may get too political because the government is making our existence political, and that is why it's political, and we need to make a stand.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 16:10

Yeah, in the words of we love music to China, in the words of skunk and Nancy, everything's political. Indeed, we

Unknown: 16:18

might edit that out. We might not. No, we won't. Skunk and Nancy, listen in Oh, you're

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 16:22

on this new part of your journey. You're exploring things as you are now. You've mentioned that you've had some therapy. How, how has this been for you coming out and coming to this realisation? So,

Unknown: 16:41

so I would like to make it clear that, you know, I reached out to my GP, and my GP actually said to me, he said, che, he called me my previous name because I hadn't changed my name by then, but I will use my name che. He said, che, to be perfectly honest with you, the support out there is not going to be in your in the time frame that you will want, you will be, probably be 60 by the time you get any intervention. And I'm suggesting that you seek private intervention. So Subsequently, I reached out to somebody to give me an assessment. I have got a diagnosis of gender incongruence. That's the more better, that's the that's the overall term of dysphoria incongruence fits into. There's, there's lots of there's lots of reasons why it's incongruent. Have a look on Google. They'll help you. And then I thought, Okay, now I've got that assessment. I can, you know, look into consultants for top surgery. I have been looking into consultants, but they want a second assessment. So in a couple of weeks, I've got a second assessment, which, again, I've got to pay for to have the same confirmation that I have gender incongruence, and I'm able to go for top surgery. Following that July the first, I've actually got an appointment to have, which I have to pay for, to have a consultation with a surgeon to say whether they'll agree or not to operate. And then that'll probably cost me around 10 grand, which I've got to find. So the journey there, sorry, from a financial perspective, is not one. I can just pocket 10 grand out from flick 10 grand out of my pocket. So if anyone wants to donate, I have got a GoFundMe page

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 18:32

again. We'll, we'll, we will put details just, I'm not

Unknown: 18:36

actually going on to this podcast for for this, I'm actually just trying to show people that it's not just a journey that you have to go through, mentally, physically, but also financially. And if I wasn't in the position I was to actually be able to get a loan to pay for this, then I would have to wait until I was 60,

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 19:02

which it's just a horrible thought for anybody.

Unknown: 19:06

I actually don't know if I could, to be honest, I'm not, really not sure, and I don't mean that dramatically, but I don't know how my mental health would fare up in the in the next nine years, if I could not have something done.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 19:17

I mean, you've touched on mental health, obviously, you've had issues with mental ill health in the past. How have you found this process of coming out again, if you like, now, as non binary in terms of your mental health, and these

Unknown: 19:30

are coming out again, you're quite right. I think if I could bottle the euphoric feeling I felt when I told Sarah I would be rich, yes, I cried, yes, I got emotional, yes, but for about a week afterwards, I was on cloud nine, because for the first time in my life, I have felt the person who I am and need to. D I have got ADHD crying out loud? So a week, for me, feels like a month. Six months. It's just I want things done here and now. So me waiting for top surgery is like, it might be only a few months, but I need it's like waiting a few years. I think when somebody with ADHD makes up their mind and has that focus, that we have to try and make sure we don't become hyper focused. And so, yeah, it's been an up and down journey. I have had to have some time off work to to readjust, to get things right, and to have that additional bit of therapy to talk things through about where I am and how I'm feeling, and I started writing. So I think I've got a long way to go with regards to processing stuff and making sure my mental health is okay. But do you know what my mental health feels the best it's felt in a long, long time

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 21:06

and again, because I have the benefit of obviously being married to chair and live with them, I can attest to all that I have seen the before. Yeah, it's not all suddenly sweets and roses and fabulous. You know you've had your moments, haven't you, and you know that you know the challenge that's ahead. I think we're still as a couple working through this, but we've both been through enough in life to know that we're strong together. Just very briefly, you've touched on work and being off work. I mean, on a practical level, how have you found dealing with this and name change and everything else in a work perspective to begin

Unknown: 21:56

with? I felt like the name change was somewhat forced upon me by something somebody said, and somebody assumed, however, I have been thinking about a name change for a while, and whether that's the right, right thing for me. And yes, in hindsight, it was, but it was, it moved along a bit quicker than than I potentially anticipated. Um, I'm I'm not saying that they were wrong, but what they said was rather insensitive at that time, and maybe that's because I'm rather hyper focused and more sensitive to things, and I don't think they meant things intentionally harmful, but it was just it hit me in the stomach. So then, from then, I thought, actually, I need to actually have some time off to find out where I am. So I spoke with some, you know, managers, senior manage, managers in particular, because battling HR and the IBC systems. What's IBC? Oh, that's the payroll systems that we have to use within, you know the agency that I work for, um, they're atrocious. I'm sorry, but you know, HR, and you know those bodies of people should understand how to work with people. Only this week, I was dead, named four times in a phone call when I told that person from the off my name, and then their manager had the audacity to phone me a day later and say, Oh, it was a mistake. And I said, Listen, you know, a mistake is once, maybe twice in a one phone call, but four times, and to sign me off using my dead name. I said it wasn't insult, and actually that was not a mistake that was deliberate.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 23:43

And again,

Unknown: 23:45

I think so, it's not been easy. And I think departments need to look at how they address people. We've, we've, they change a name, if they change gender, if whatever the reason they've changed the name, they need to address it and actually just accept this person's changed their name. It's like, you changing your name from Smith to Jones. That's quite easy to do, isn't it, but people just don't do it. So when it comes to first names, people like, get over excited and over like, oh, just, just use my name. I

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 24:25

think the most interesting thing was this call you had. This was actually somebody ringing you about your change of name. It wasn't just a random HR person from about it was a

Unknown: 24:38

call, Hello, can I speak to dead name? Yeah. And I said, No, you could speak to che. And they were like, Oh, well, I'm phoning to talk about your change of name. And I said, I need to speak to my dead name. And I said, No, you're speaking to che. I have changed my name and it's legal. I have a deed poll stated we haven't had your depot. I. Sent my depot weeks ago. They have got my depot. So it was just a, you know, but for to continue to dead name me, even though this person was told on numerous occasions, was really, it flattened me for a bit,

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 25:19

actually, and again, just just to say, I think for those of you that don't live this, you don't realise the impact that has,

Unknown: 25:28

and I've lived with Sarah, who's a trans woman, for how many

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 25:32

years? 2015, so, nine years, nine years. Okay?

Unknown: 25:36

And I didn't realise the impact of people dead, naming or misgendering Sarah until I was going through this myself, and it hurts. It hurts like hell, and it's like somebody has really kicked you in your stomach, and it actually makes you feel quite sick. And I'm not over dramatising things here. That is, actually, that's my physio. You know, physically, that's how I felt when that person kept dead naming

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 26:04

me. And the thing is, this isn't just signalling out chai's employer because, yes, because my direct employers have been great well, and I know from other work I do, through simply quality, that lots of employers, even those that have like policies and procedures, and your employer has a trans policy, people a, don't necessarily know the policy exists. B, they don't know what it says and C, that don't know how to follow it. So I think that, for me, just says this whole need for education and the training and raising awareness just, I mean, there's just a perfect example.

Unknown: 26:42

I think if I hadn't have had the support from the senior management team, I don't know what I would have done to a perfect owners. And actually like to thank them, you know, for the support that they have they have given me. Yeah, so that's a

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 26:59

bit of the negatives on the positive front, though you've mentioned, again, therapy, I know you've had a really positive experience because, again, trans people in particular were a bit nervous about seeking out therapists and oh God, are they going to be gender critical or conversion therapy? Come on, let's, let's name the positives here. Okay,

Unknown: 27:21

so, I mean, when you're looking at top surgery, you get, actually a list. You can find lists of therapists, and I have found Lara, who just gets it, is non judgmental, is just listens, and it's like she understands, and it's just she really hears what you have to say. And I think being listened to and heard heard that is most, most important thing being heard is it just validates where you are and make sure after, after coming off call with her, I've been able to reflect, I've been able to sit down and process things in a different manner than I may have done before.

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 28:17

And again, to sort of give the phrase, we'll put the name in the show notes, but Laura can't remember surname, but she's very much working on working with therapists and clinicians and trying to put together a list of people who are trans affirming therapists. And

Unknown: 28:36

she does. She also owns the company affirm blah blah note,

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 28:45

um, we will. So gosh, so much. There's so much more we could say. But honestly, I know this is, this is this is tough talking about it. So I mean this genuinely. Thank you. Here we are, you've, you've, you've been out a few months as non binary, you've changed your name, you're, you're progressing towards top surgery. How, how are you feeling about about the future as che

Unknown: 29:14

i can, i can envisage how I'm going to look, which is huge to me. I think what people have said to me is, since I've come out, I'm more confident, and I think that confidence is going to grow, especially after top surgery. A question that may be asked is, am I going to transition fully to male? You know the answer to that. I think you know the answer to that. But you know who knows? Who knows what the future may bring? We do not know. I know I don't want a penis saying that. I think we've got

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 29:47

that message. But

Unknown: 29:52

there are that you don't have to, yeah, go down that avenue. Look, where do I see myself if I. Say, Where do I see myself in 10 years time? Well, retired, non binary, no chest, quite happy by the coast. Thank you very much. But I know that it's going to be a long journey, but one that I'm willing to embrace to be my authentic self,

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 30:18

amazing. And just one final question. This is a special pride month episode. What is? What does pride mean to you?

Unknown: 30:28

This is my first pride as che um. And to celebrate my first pride as che, I am taking photos for Oxfordshire, actually, Oxford pride, um, under Doris media, that's a huge, huge thing for me. I picked up a camera when I had covid A couple of years ago, and do this as a bit of a sideline. So so being selected by Oxford pride, thank you very much, has been huge for me, and is really going to cement my 2024 pride as che,

Sarah Stephenson-Hunter: 31:06

well che, honestly, thank you so much. I want to get I don't want to get smushy, but you're an amazing person. I love you lots. And go, go out there and be proud of who you are, people, music,