The Good Listening To Show: Stories of Distinction & Genius

World Renowned Mime Artist, Clown & Director Nola Rae, on her Journey to Silence! From Ballet to Mime to Founding the London International Mime Festival - and then on to Directing & Teaching before finally arriving in 'The Clearing'!

• Chris Grimes - Facilitator. Coach. Motivational Comedian

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What if you could reinvent yourself through the art of silence? Tune in to hear from the extraordinary Nola Rae, a world-renowned mime artist whose journey took her from the ballet stages of Sydney, Australia to the silent artistry of mime in the UK. Discover how a life-changing encounter with the legendary Marcel Marceau in Sweden turned her from an aspiring ballerina into an iconic mime artist. Nola shares the pivotal moments and rigorous training that shaped her unique approach to mime, blending her ballet discipline with a captivating clown persona.

In this episode, Nola Rae opens up about her transition from a performer to a mentor, sharing humorous and heartfelt anecdotes about retirement, teaching, and directing. You'll get a peek into her creative space in Kent and her favorite people-watching spot in Venice, revealing the whimsical yet rigorous world behind her art. She also delves into her personal connections, including her admiration for Oliver Hardy and the significant influence of her partner, Matthew Rideout, who has been instrumental in her creative journey.

Be prepared for an engaging exploration into the world of mime and clowning, as Nola discusses her creative process behind shows based on historical figures and the traits of dictators. Listen to her reflections on the joys of mentoring the next generation, the importance of silence in expression, and the simple yet powerful advice of "Persevere" that has guided her career. Concluding with personal musings on overcoming timidity and her love for chocolate cake, this episode promises to be an inspiring and insightful conversation with a true legend in the world of mime.

Tune in next week for more stories of 'Distinction & Genius' from The Good Listening To Show 'Clearing'. If you would like to be my Guest too then you can find out HOW via the different 'series strands' at 'The Good Listening To Show' website.

Don't forget to SUBSCRIBE & REVIEW wherever you get your Podcasts :)

Thanks for listening!

Speaker 1:

Welcome to another episode of the Good Listening To Show your life and times with me, chris Grimes, the storytelling show that features the Clearing, where all good questions come to get asked and all good stories come to be told, and where all my guests have two things in common they're all creative individuals and all with an interesting story to tell. There are some lovely storytelling metaphors a clearing, a tree, a juicy storytelling exercise called 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, some alchemy, some gold, a cheeky bit of Shakespeare and a cake. So it's all to play for. So, yes, welcome to the Good Listening To Show your life and times with me, chris Grimes, are you sitting comfortably? Then we shall begin. And there we have it a gorgeous and sumptuous day in the Good Listening To Show clearing.

Speaker 1:

I'm absolutely thrilled and delighted to welcome a world-renowned mime artist called nola ray to the clearing. Nola, it's a delight to meet you. Um, circa 1982 to 86. Um, I had a poster of your london international mime festival in my room while I was at the central school of screech and trauma doing my teaching degree and because you've been iconic in my life ever since. And then I saw the wonderful production of Elizabeth's Last Stand. When we connected on Facebook recently. I was just delighted and thrilled that you immediately said yes when I asked you if I could possibly interview you. So, nola Ray, you are extremely welcome to the Good Listening 2 show Clearing. Thank you very much. Wonderful, and how's morale? What's your story of the day, nola Ray? The?

Speaker 2:

day, this day.

Speaker 1:

Yes, this very day in history.

Speaker 2:

My day. Well, I got up, had breakfast, had a shower, got dressed and here I am.

Speaker 1:

Wonderful, and yes, I Wikipedia'd you before we started. I knew who you were anyway. Um, it's quite confusing. It says you were born in 1949 and then, and then it goes back a year and says sorry. Then it goes forward a year and says 1950. So just to clear that up 49 but and you were born in Sydney, australia, and, of course, you moved to the UK. And, yes, how long were you living in Australia for before you moved to England?

Speaker 2:

I left Australia when I was 13.

Speaker 1:

And then 16, you were at the Royal Ballet School, first of all training to be a dancer. I know you all know this, but I'm just contextualising this for those of us that are just tuning in, contextualizing this, for those of us that are just tuning in and um, the fact that you studied as a ballerina makes such sense because of the beautiful dance mime that you've subsequently done. I mean, it just makes complete sense that you started out and subsequently training with marcel marceau. So, yes, um, just talk me through the sort of why you decided. What was that journey about? Ballerina to mime artist? How did that happen?

Speaker 2:

well, uh, my father in sydney, when I was four, plonked me down in front of swan lake and that was it. Ever since then, uh, I wanted to be a ballerina, and probably umargo fontaine at that. Not just any ballerina, but a great ballerina. So, uh, we came over to London so that I could study at the Royal Ballet School, uh, which I was one of the best auditions. I'm really poor at auditions, but I did a very good one to get into the Royal Ballet School. So I was really proud of that. Uh, and that was it. Uh, proud of that, uh, and that was it. Uh, that was it until I I got a job in Sweden. I was.

Speaker 2:

I was never going to be good enough to get into the company that Margot Fontaine was in, oh, unfortunately. So I ended up in Sweden and eventually I decided that I didn't want to do ballet anymore because it was like being the army. So you're in the horde of corps de ballet, and in sweden it seemed to be I'm talking about malmo stard siata, by the way. Yes, you had to. You had to be there for quite a few years before you got anything interesting to do, and I decided that wasn't what I was going to do also. Of course, ballet dancers get injured all the time, and so I got injured not all the time but some of the time. And it just so happened that the wonderful Marcel Marceau was passing through my theatre for one night and I summed up the courage to actually ask him if I could go to his school, which I knew about because my mother had sent me a cutting about opening his school in Paris. Uh, in about that was about six months time and he, uh, he just said yes gosh.

Speaker 1:

So you just in him, passing through your life for one night only you're speaking to him, was the equivalent of your audition and he just said yes it was the first time I've ever I've ever spoken to him.

Speaker 2:

I had seen him on stage in London before and was amazed.

Speaker 1:

I was really, really impressed, but never thought I'd do anything like that yes, and your vocabulary of mime at that time, and obviously dance is a very similar discipline, but was it him that that taught you your own sort of clown persona? I know you, you form your own clown persona, but, um, did you know much about mine before actually making that transformation?

Speaker 2:

I knew a bit about mine because that there is dance mine, which is a gesture from your ballets. There are mimes that we used to do at the Royal Ballet School. So I knew a bit. I'd seen him in particular, which was a wonderful demonstration what mine is or could be. So I did know a bit about it. The other thing is, as a dancer, the most difficult thing. Ballet is really really difficult physically it's really hard.

Speaker 1:

As is mime. Actually, it's an incredible discipline of physical acumen.

Speaker 2:

Not. If you're a dancer, not so much.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

Because dance technique is more difficult than mime technique. So I managed to pick up technique reasonably well, but there are still people miles better than me technically. But what was hard to do was to actually find something to do with all this technique?

Speaker 1:

Yes, and then your mime is so balletic. I've just loved rummaging around and looking at various bits you've done on YouTube. If anyone wants to Google Nolure, there are just wonderful clips of your wonderful, I suppose, ballet approach to mime for two hands, and also your midsummer night's dream fairies that were puppet salad vegetables I. I just have to ask if I can come for lunch someday, because that's such a lovely idea or you can't eat the puppets because they're all disintegrated now.

Speaker 1:

So and then what? The most iconic thing I remember seeing was elizabeth's last stand, which is about um, obviously an old lady with delusions of grandeur who recreates the court of elizabeth's last stand, which is about um, obviously an old lady with delusions of grandeur who recreates the court of elizabeth the first in her own room. And um, in fact, when I first said I was going to be interviewing you I don't know if you know chris pirry from green ginger here in bristol he said he, he was immediately onto the. He commented saying that it's, it's scorched it indelibly onto his brain as the most wonderful piece of theatre magic when you disappear at the end of the show into the back of the armchair that the whole play has been sat in yes, uh, I just this is a very big step.

Speaker 2:

Uh, from the work I did pre uh, elizabeth Sartre, which was mainly sketches, so I thought, oh, I'm sick of doing sketches because a lot of the if you could see me from the side of the stage, the fights that go on changing costume were interesting sometimes, and what was going on on stage. So I thought I don't want to change costume all the time. So I thought I'm going to change costume all the time. So.

Speaker 1:

So I'm going to, I'm going to do something where that doesn't happen much and I saw your Neil Innes sketch as well, about the hot air bluenist as well, which I've just seen literally 10 minutes ago before speaking to you. And then, of course, that you are the founder of the London International Mime Festival, uh, which is an incredible accolade, and of course, you received an MBE for sort of total theatre. In I think it was 2008, you had your MBE, yes for drama and mine.

Speaker 2:

What the drama is, I don't know.

Speaker 1:

But mine as well, and I have to ask you, before we properly get going, we did. You did say you've retired when I first got in touch with you a few weeks ago. Is that actually the case, or are you still teaching and obviously being a mentor? Yeah, I'm teaching and I can direct as well, but I'm not on the stage anymore and of course my sort of slightly comedy lens questions is is it very quiet for a mime artist when they retire?

Speaker 2:

um quiet.

Speaker 1:

Well, in the country it's not particularly quiet and you're speaking to us today from ashford, near ashford in kent, aren't you?

Speaker 2:

that's right. That's where we have our barn, which is our rehearsal place as well.

Speaker 1:

We live here and rehearse it, and I'm behind you. For those of you that are seeing this on facebook, you've got the wonderful, wonderful, velvety red curtain set up, which is obviously giving you the sort of sound boo thing that you might need in your studio.

Speaker 2:

It looks wonderful yeah, it's also for this kind of work, because the light comes in from the barn and it's too too much. Sure we know it's about lighting yes.

Speaker 1:

So it's my great, great pleasure and privilege, nola ray, to curate you through the story scape of the good, listening to show we're going to be introducing a clearing shortly. Then there'll be a tree, there'll be five, four, three, two, one, there'll be some alchemy, some gold, a couple of random squirrels, a cheeky bit of shakespeare and a cake hurrah. So let's get you on the open road of that, if I may. So where is what is a clearing? Where is your serious happy place, nola? Where do you go to get cuttifury, inspirational and able to think?

Speaker 2:

Well, I think my most happy place is sitting in a cafe outside drinking a nice cold beer watching people go by.

Speaker 1:

So people watching banking characters just observing the world, yeah that's.

Speaker 2:

That's really nice, but I'm going to have a beer as well I like the two.

Speaker 1:

And um, were you watching the football? Because of course, in the time in history, this is very much the time when people sort of spray each other with beer when england score a goal.

Speaker 2:

I don't like football, oh, dear sorry no, no, that's completely fine.

Speaker 1:

Not at all. Um, interestingly, my daughter isn't a particular uh football fan, but she was in a bar when she got sort of baptized in beer, which she wasn't expecting, because there is this weird habit of people throwing their beer in the air used to live in wembley so I I know all about football and football crowds and lots to observe, much from where we were living.

Speaker 1:

So yes, and you mentioning people watching. That's very reminiscent of what I know about Laurel and Hardy and the fact that Oliver Hardy used to. He grew up in a Texas hotel and used to people watch and observe just to bank characters and your comedy persona is very Stan Laurel-esque in what I've observed and I really, really admire that in you.

Speaker 2:

But I actually really prefer Oliver. Ah yes, and I don't like Laurel, but I really prefer Oliver. Don't know why. He reminds me of my father a bit.

Speaker 1:

Oh lovely. So Oliver Hardy reminds you of your dad.

Speaker 2:

Dad was somewhat like him, but not as sure so, okay, we're.

Speaker 1:

We're outside in a cafe. In order for me to arrive with a tree, you've got a glass of beer. That's yours as well. So would you like to pinpoint where the cafe is, or are we just talking about any cafe where you can sit and observe?

Speaker 2:

it. It's not any cafe. It's probably the best. I think the best time I remember was sitting in Venice in a square and with all these entrances and exits, with Matthew with a cup of beers and just watching entrances and exits. It was so funny. People didn't know where they were Japanese who were following umbrellas. I mean it was just. It was just hilarious. It's been a long time watching that. That was. That was the bit, one of the best ones that's a perfect setting.

Speaker 1:

You're the first first mime artist to be on the show, thank you. And you're the first first person to identify a Venetian square as their clearing. So I'm thrilled and delighted with both of those things. And you just mentioned Matthew there. That's Matthew Rideout, who designed the London Mime Festival poster that I remembered having on my wall, and I found that again today. Actually, I googled it to say what is that poster? And there it was. It was the London International Mime Festival one is it the one with the big face?

Speaker 1:

the big face and then almost a sort of sprond of different colours coming out. It's the. That's our own one. Yes.

Speaker 2:

At the Mind Festival. They have other designs for that. Matthew did design one, one of them early one.

Speaker 1:

And that's the one that's at the V&A, I believe, Is it? Oh right, I Googled that for you, If you wondered where it's gone. The original.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the original poster, because we have the original painting here.

Speaker 1:

Oh, could you take a photograph of the original painting and send it to me? That would be really exciting.

Speaker 2:

It's on the wall up here. Yes, that was one of the first painting posters, but before that, matthew painted a poster for Friends Roadshow, which I could probably take a photograph of and send you as well. But that was his very first color.

Speaker 1:

uh, painted a poster wonderful and also it was the beginning of a wonderful life together, because the poster design and then he's been part of you, the fabric of the design of your life ever since yes, we've been together over 50 years now, so 52, I think congratulations, that's lovely.

Speaker 1:

So here we are, then, in your venetian square and, if I may, a bit waiting for god, oh, esk and existential. I'm going to arrive with a tree in your clearing now and I'm going to shake your tree to see which storytelling apples fall out. How do you like these apples? And this is where you've had five minutes, nola ray, wonderful international, world-renowned mime artist, to have thought about four things that have shaped you, three things that inspire you, two things that never fail to grab your attention and borrow from the film up. That's where the oh squirrels come in. You know, what never felt is grab your attention, irrespective of anything else that's going on for you. And, by the way, this isn't a memory test. I'll back up in a second. And then the one is a quirky, unusual fact about you. We couldn't possibly know about you until you tell us. So let's go back to four things that have shaped you well, obviously, being a trade-in ballet has shaped me greatly.

Speaker 2:

Four things uh, coming to london and uh, and performing before english audiences, which is a really good test. If English audiences like your work, then most people are going to like it, because they're quite what's the word connoisseurs? I think of drama and art and theatre. That's two, obviously, working with Marcel Marceau was a wonderful thing to do, and also working with the clown Marcel Marceau was a wonderful thing to do, and also working with the clown, uh, django Edwards. Uh, we formed a company together called Friends Roadshow and that's really where I learned how to clown.

Speaker 1:

Those are four things and, of course, saying that the British audiences are most discerning. That's so lovely that you lovely that you've founded the London Mime Festival right in the centre of where you're going to get the toughest crowd.

Speaker 2:

Well, not necessarily, because when we did our first Mime Festival because it's Mime we got international audience.

Speaker 1:

Oh, yes, yes, of course, but based in London.

Speaker 2:

Mime Festival, which went from strength to strength. We started at a cockpit theatre which is tiny.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

We got through that and finally we're at the South Bank Centre and Covent Garden and Barbican big theatres, big shows with international audiences. And that's what's good about mine we don't speak yes we get, we get, uh, we get all guesses from everywhere and your association with Marcel Marceau.

Speaker 1:

Obviously you'd studied with him and under him anything you should like to tell us about what that was like, what you know to be well to work with the great before you become a great yourself took a while.

Speaker 2:

I mean, no, I'm very different to marcel marcel. Uh, I'll call him marcel because everybody calls him. He calls himself marcel. He called himself marcel.

Speaker 2:

It was wonderful because he was. It was one of the first times he had a school, a proper school, otherwise he was just giving on the odd course. So he had a school and he was very nice to his students. He was really caring about them and encouraging. So he would take us for improvisation, for instance, and he said, right, give me an idea. And and everybody shrank away and he came up with one himself and I wish I'd taken notes because I would be doing it. And we'd improvise, usually badly, and he'd get up and he'd say I like the way you did that and that was very nice. But then he'd do it himself and, oh dear, we're in awe. He was just wonderful, but also a teacher that didn't say to us you are mere students and I am the great man and you shall worship at my. No, he was very, very human, a humane man and a human man and just exciting to work with Every year.

Speaker 1:

Students really adored him, were not frightened of him, but adored him and in the way that Lecoq is done entirely in French, was it all in French and you had learned French to do this?

Speaker 2:

I did, of course, learn, tried to learn French at school and I had a course when I went as a Sweden. I was still trying to learn French. Eventually, I got to Paris and you had to know French because the Parisians in those days did not speak English. So it came from experience. Yes, he was a great linguist. He would speak about five languages, so sometimes he'd start in English, go into French and finish in German.

Speaker 1:

And then finish in Mime, ultimately, which is the ultimate language?

Speaker 2:

But he was a great speaker. Funnily enough, he spoke a a lot off stage. He couldn't shut him up, he and he was a very, very good uh yeah, very good talker in english. He spoke wonderful english, very poetic. Yes, french can speak this kind of poetic language, so he did that. He was.

Speaker 1:

He was very, very good at that and of course mime too, of itself is a very poetic language. You know it's renowned for being the world's most successful comedy export ever is probably Mr Bean, because of Rowan Atkinson and that character and again, it's because it just crosses and transcends all language barriers. It's just the universality of the human condition through the dance of mime. And of course you've done both your ballet trained and mime trained.

Speaker 2:

Right. Funny enough, when I got to Maso, I looked around and said where are the other dancers? And they weren't any. I was the only one. So it's not something that dancers naturally go to, which I'm surprised. The other thing about mime is that dancers are followers. They do choreography. Sometimes, of course, they choreograph for themselves, but usually they are following choreography. So when you get to a mime school, there's no choreography. There's a technique, yes, but the ideas are yours.

Speaker 1:

They have to come from you personally, and that I found at first quite difficult, quite difficult to actually think of what I'm going to do with this technique that I've learned yes, and yet your own vocabulary is so ingrained in dance and as, going back a bit, when you said you were plonked down at the age of four in front of Swan Lake in, in just researching you before today I noticed how balletic your mime style is and of course it makes complete sense that that's been your journey and your path through it yes, yes, I wouldn't be doing mime in the same way if I hadn't studied ballet.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I don't regret a moment of ballet training and I love dance, I love watching dance. I love even dancing when nobody's watching.

Speaker 1:

But and you've got a rug just behind you, so I'm assuming you can cut the rug as well. Throw some shapes and cut the rug. It is so exciting to have a mime artist in the clearing, and the fact that you're a balletic mime artist as well is really exciting. Okay, so thank you for the four shapeages. Now, three things that inspire you or have inspired you Nola-Rae.

Speaker 2:

I'm not sure I haven't told them already.

Speaker 1:

If there's any overlap, that's completely fine. Sorry, I was interrupting you.

Speaker 2:

Royal Ballet School was an interesting time, malmo. I went to Tivoli as well and worked in the pantomime theatre there, which was great. I went to Tivoli as well and worked in the pantomime theatre there, which was great, before I studied with Marcel Django. Of course, django was a great American clown. He was a natural mime. Some people are natural mimes. They can do mime not balletically, but naturally, and he was one of those.

Speaker 1:

And we both mentioned Tweedy, who we have in common, Tweedy the clown who I have seen at Gifford Circus. He similarly has a wonderful gift of mime.

Speaker 2:

He's asked me if I could teach him mime and I said what are you talking about? Yes, anybody who's a physical performer, like that has got to have a certain mime sense. The also the also thing, an awesome thing about mime, uh, is the intellectual process such as it is, and that is to create your own stuff. Nobody writes mimes. You have to be the one to write the mime, and the same with clowning. I would say you have to develop your. Nobody teaches, or there's no. There are more clown books than there are mime books with sketches written down in them, but generally an artist does not want to do other people's sketches.

Speaker 1:

And in terms of devising in physical theatre, there's obviously a crossover there between pantomime, between mime, physical theatre, dance. It's all there. It's an incredible melee of all the right and the best qualities in order to create your own stuff, I think.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the other thing is a dancer. Music is so important. Obviously, you dance all the time to music, so for me to have a show without music would be not possible.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

I've got to have music somewhere in it, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And anything else, just whilst we're on inspirations that you'd like to say.

Speaker 2:

Inspiration? Oh well, of course, I'm inspired by the great comedians, the great silent comedians, obviously. Anybody who's a clown of mine has to be inspired by them, including Laurel and Hardy, who are my favourite duo.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I'm so happy you said that, because me too, obviously, and I love the fact that you're more drawn. I'm really drawn to both of them for the beautiful dynamic, but Stan Laurel is my all-time comic hero and that's why I love Tweedy so much. But I noticed in your well, now you've mentioned you love Oliver Hardy as well. I see Stan Laurel in what I was observing as well, but but there's both but hardly anybody as a clown really say oh, that's, that's Oliver Hardy.

Speaker 2:

Then do they never? Yes, he's such a unique performer. The way he's twiddling things, the way he uses his fingers, yes To camera, and the fact he it's just, it's just very wonderful. He's got a very good voice as well.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and Breaking the Fourth Wall was of course the first thing done on silent film with Oliver Hardy. Oh, maybe not you hardy.

Speaker 2:

Oh, maybe not you're going, maybe not he does when it for something. Yeah, that's one of his sounds yes uh, I like uh also. I was very fond of jack tatty. Yes, silent clown. Uh, I'm also a mime. Jacques Tati was a very good mime in his youth when he wasn't even a mime, he played rugby and win or lose. In the cafe afterwards everybody asked him to retell the rugby playing in mime.

Speaker 1:

So he did wonderful rugby playing in mime, so he did Wonderful.

Speaker 2:

Again, a natural mime. I'm not sure he studied mime with anybody, not to my knowledge and because of your love of the silent comedy era.

Speaker 1:

do you ever feel a woman born out of your time because of the fact you could have so belonged in that domain as well?

Speaker 2:

Not really, because generally the women were chosen for their. They were funny, but they weren't as funny as Chapman or Hockey. They were sort of foils. And the only lady that I think in the early days is Lucille Bourne, who was the real clown. I admire her because she was so glamorous, she was very pretty, she didn't put a red nose on it was the circumstances, it was what she got herself into, which she wrote herself, by the way, and the fact she kept this character. She's very unlike any other clown woman. There are not many of us around.

Speaker 1:

And talking about other inspirations, which this is what I was inspired by in researching you as well, I know that you've worked with another world-renowned divisor of physical theatre, simon Burney, who obviously directed your Elizabeth First, elizabeth's Last Stand.

Speaker 2:

He took me, I told him my idea and he said yes, yes, and he said what you have to do is base your character on someone you know. I said, right, that's going to be my grandmother, fine, anyway. And then you've got 20 minutes to reel the audience in. If you can't do that within 20 minutes, you're finished. And yes, I took that in, but before that I'd shown him work that was sketches again, and he sat there going and he said very rich. And then he tore the whole thing up. This was two weeks before the premiere and I said you can't, you can't do it as the way you were doing it, simon, in only two weeks. And he said loads bags of time, he said. And so Matthew and I went back on the train to where we were. We said, my god, yeah, shall we do it? He said yes, let's, yes, let's try it. And he was absolutely right. We're in a total different direction. And took his commentary and his advice in big time and made it very, very different to what it was maybe going to be.

Speaker 1:

Did your grandmother stay as the epicentre of it. So the nugget of the idea, the kernel of the idea, was still the epicentre. Is that right?

Speaker 2:

So Betty though we call that character Betty who comes in and is haunted by Queen Elizabeth I for no real reason. We see Queen Elizabeth I, go into her armchair and then, from then on, she's haunted by her and bit by bit she becomes more like her. But as she's still grandmother because it's ridiculous that my grandmother could ever think about being Elizabeth I and I'm thinking that within most women and lots of women, there is an Elizabeth I trying to get out, I love that, that.

Speaker 2:

Yes, there is Somewhere deep down, there is an Elizabeth I in them and I'd studied Elizabeth at school, so you know the Tudor period and I just I knew her quite well, I knew what she did quite well, and so it was a really good structure to build a clown show on and it worked very well.

Speaker 1:

You've got more and more imperious, more and more ridiculous more and more you know, and ever since have you been in the habit of making sure, or making a point of ripping up your script two weeks before you go live. Is that the technique he's given you?

Speaker 2:

Not usually. The next technique is to actually think about an idea and research it thoroughly. Uh, before and then. What comes out of the research is the structure of the show. For instance, I've done dictators. I thought oh good idea to do a sort of a dictator. What makes a dictator? So I read about them a lot and it's reading that makes your jaw drop on the ground as to how they got that way and why people let them do it. Those are the things, but in the end I found a structure that was steps that dictators take. There are about eight steps they all do. It Starts with a defeat, starts with a defeat, then they step into an empty sort of what's worse, an emptiness. They decide their lucky star tells them that they are the one to fix it and as Napoleon, I took Napoleon quite seriously and they transform themselves, et cetera, et cetera. They get control, then they lose control, then they fall apart, then they get paranoia and finally either die or are exiled.

Speaker 1:

It's an inverted hero's journey, isn't it? Because there's a sort of definite story scape to that. Have you written a book of the eight steps to dictatorship?

Speaker 2:

Not yet, but it's strange, most of the dictators I read about, they're all outsiders.

Speaker 1:

Outliers, yes, outliers. Swimming to the centre to take over the world.

Speaker 2:

And they have problems. They have difficult childhoods. They're often very small people like Napoleon, Though Napoleon apparently wasn't that small. They all say he was small, but he was five foot two. That's small, but it wasn't in those days.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

Stalin was extremely short. You know Putin was short, so you name it, it's generally short. The only person who wasn't short was Mao. Franco was short. Mussolini was short. Yeah, and I've read about most of them and they all go the same way. It's really really quite striking how they and I've read about most of them and they all go the same way. It's really really quite striking how they.

Speaker 1:

So maybe it should be called Eight Short Steps to Dictatorship, the book.

Speaker 2:

It's called Exit Napoleon Pursued by Rabbits. Yes, that's a story about Napoleon who one of his marshals said I would like to, as a reward from a great victory somewhere. He said I'd like to give you a reward. What do you want to? I'd like to take you hunting. Napoleon liked hunting, but he was a terrible shot, apparently. And he said what do you Corsicans hunt? And Napoleon said rabbits. So they went to a. This marshal had bought abouta thousand rabbits.

Speaker 1:

To give them a chance.

Speaker 2:

All in cages anyway, napoleon with his gun is caught beside him. They opened the cages and the rabbits ran out for about five metres, turned around and came back. Everybody jumped in. I think about three jumped in Napoleon's arms because the rabbits he bought were domestic rabbits and they were actually Looking for a cuddle.

Speaker 1:

By people.

Speaker 2:

They weren't wild rabbits. Looking for a cuddle by people they weren't wild rabbits. So anyway, napoleon threw his gun down, got in his coach, went back to Paris with rabbits chasing him which links to that wonderful Shakespearean thing of ex-aunt pursued by a bear but ex-aunt Napoleon pursued by rabbits yeah, that's, that's why I put rabbits in there. People say, what's to do with rabbits? But I in the show I do find rabbits everywhere.

Speaker 1:

Oh I've got. I've got squirrels, but I haven't got rabbits. And in fact, talking of squirrels, that's where we're going next. Now we're going to talk about two things that never fail to grab your attention, irrespective of anything else, and this is borrowed from the film Up, where the dog goes oh, squirrels. So by all means, interpret them as rabbits if you like, but what are your monsters of distraction? What are your rabbits or squirrels of distraction? Squirrels?

Speaker 1:

I'm just genuinely distracted by people who are weird that's a lovely answer, and when's the when did you like?

Speaker 2:

no, uh, sorry, I didn't mean that?

Speaker 1:

no, I didn't hear that. Sorry, was that what were you saying? Sorry, I said like you, weird.

Speaker 2:

I'll take that as a compliment I don't think you're weird, are you?

Speaker 1:

but anyway I'm as weird as the next person. So yes, I probably am quite weird.

Speaker 2:

That's quite a good observation uh, yes, that's generally what I'm.

Speaker 1:

Just because I'm, I think every clown in mind seems to be a people watcher yes, rudy shelly, who you may or may not remember from the bristol old vic theatre school. Did you ever meet him? Because I know you were part of the bristol old vic company? Uh, in the 70s as well.

Speaker 1:

I did dick whittington, I was a cat yeah, rudy shelly, you should say actors should never be bored. There's always people to be watching, so people watching. And I I love that because I knew about laurel sorry stan lord, sorry oliver hardy growing up in a texas hotel and people watching. As I've said already, a second squirrel, nolaola.

Speaker 2:

A second squirrel. Gosh Music is another squirrel. I love listening to music. Particularly, I'm a great sort of classical music fan. I like jazz as well. I like yeah, I like some rock music, but I'm a bit old-fashioned. I think my liking of rock music stopped with the Beatles.

Speaker 1:

As you say, music has to be in all of your shows. A show without music is missing the third dimension, I suppose.

Speaker 2:

At our place here we've got Radio 3, classic classical music on all day, and sometimes that stops when I hear something really nice and I've got to know who's singing it and who wrote it and whatever. So that's, that's a great stopper. Um, so that's music. What else? I don't know what else stops me in my tracks?

Speaker 1:

music you've said people and music. We've had two squirrels, so that's all we need, unless there's another one occurring. I think of anything that stops me in my tracks too much people and music.

Speaker 2:

We've had two squirrels, so that's all we need, unless there's another one occurring. I can't think of anything that stops me in my tracks. Too much People and music are the main thing. It's quite boring really.

Speaker 1:

And then the one now is a quirky or unusual fact about you, Nola, that we couldn't possibly know about you until you tell us.

Speaker 2:

Well seeing, I've stopped working on stage. I've taken to doing. I've stopped working on stage. I've taken to doing mime in the kitchen late at night.

Speaker 1:

I love that I invited myself for lunch to try and do your Midsummer Night's Fairies puppet salad vegetables.

Speaker 2:

but it'd be quite intriguing to be a fly on the wall late at night when you're doing mime in the kitchen. Do my stretching and my mime and pick up plates m mime like and you know, make it more interesting because washing up is really totally boring. So that's what I do late at night and click my back and hips and things are now stiff uh, and is that something that matthew enjoys walking into the kitchen to to watch you?

Speaker 1:

do you have an audience, or is it always without an audience?

Speaker 2:

never sees me doing this. It's a secret.

Speaker 1:

Ah, hence a quirky fact. We couldn't know until you tell us we have shaken your tree, nola, which is still in the Venetian square. So here we are, back in the Venetian square with your tree. We've shaken your tree, and now we're going to talk about alchemy and gold. When you're absolutely at purpose in inflow, what are you absolutely happiest doing in what you're here to reveal to the world?

Speaker 2:

I'm happiest doing well at the moment. I'm quite happy where I'm teaching and I and I have good students. And where are you teaching? I teach all over the place actually. My next teaching is going to be in Germany and then in Spain, and I've taught in London as well. Those are the general I've taught in, also last year in Czech Republic, and so I teach a lot of the time overseas. And as I'm a female mind teacher, I get a lot of ladies, which is nice. So I do like a mixed class. My preference is for half men and half women, because the dynamic then is really really stronger. So it's nice when I can see the students are watching me carefully and over a period of time they're actually improving. That gives me most pleasure these days, but of course it's being on stage, yes so do you miss that?

Speaker 1:

not so much. Now have you done with that and you're happy to sort of put the I'm always going to miss being on stage.

Speaker 2:

That's when you you have the audience, you in the part, hopefully in the palm of your hand, and really watching what you're doing yes, with you and being complicit with you. That's amazing thing. When you're a performer, that's what you aim for. Yes, always going to aim for that. So that's's something I really miss. I get it out of my students now.

Speaker 1:

But you're absolutely happiest when you're going into an empty space to teach people the craft of mime. I love that and lovely that you're still going all over the world to do that. So when are you next off?

Speaker 2:

At the end of the month I go to Konstanz in Germany.

Speaker 1:

And do you tend to do residencies of a couple of weeks, or how long are they?

Speaker 2:

A week, usually four days, something like that, just a week or so. After a couple of weeks I'd probably be dead because it's quite tiring. Teaching is really very tiring. It's longer than a show. I teach something, mostly six hours or something. Oh gosh, like that. You know a day, it's a day's class, so it is quite tiring, but um, but it's, it's worth it, it's good is it normally about a sharing at the end of each week-long course?

Speaker 2:

we at the end of the course, I will, we'll sit around and I'll ask the students, ask me questions, which they do when I answer, I say I get a silence. You know, generally, Ask me something, just like Marceau and ask.

Speaker 1:

You know, ask me something I'll say, and there's a silence and I say, oh, okay, goodbye saying there's a silence, and I say, oh, okay, goodbye, and then, uh, then it comes out um, you must quite enjoy sitting in that silent mind space, in the killer silence waiting for the question silence.

Speaker 2:

We don't like it. We don't like silence. We're not silent people. We may be silent, uh, on stage. Uh, because words uh, what's what's nice about words? Uh, not words. Silence is that it comes through your eyes into the most. It has no filters. You you have. The mind is truth. You can also confuse with mind. If you're not good at it, it'd be very, but it's truth. Everything is truthful and there are no words with double meanings. So that's what's nice about mime? But offstage, we mimes quite like speaking.

Speaker 1:

As you say, Marcel Marceau couldn't stop talking once he was offstage almost.

Speaker 2:

He was a really good talker, so I don't talk as much as him.

Speaker 1:

I'm a bit shyer than he is, but I can imagine those being the most magical moments at the end of the course when you do ask that question. And then there is silence, because of course silence is the domain of a mime artist ultimately, I'm teaching clowning, so it's not necessarily silent.

Speaker 2:

With my teaching of clowning, my workshop's called the Clown Speaks Without Words. That doesn't mean to say it's silent yes, it's often not, but it's not wordy.

Speaker 1:

And now, nola, I'm going to award you with a cake. So, first of all, you said you didn't like football later on, which is wonderful and completely understandable, but do you like cake? Nola?

Speaker 1:

at times I like cake I'm a great cake eater though and what type of cake would you like? Sorry, it's a metaphorical cake and if I ever get to meet you I'll bring you a cake. But, um, what would you like? Sorry, chocolate. Yes, your sound is cutting out slightly suddenly, but can you just say chocolate cake again. Check, your sound's still working.

Speaker 2:

Chocolate cake is what I personally would go for if I was to eat cake, which.

Speaker 1:

I did now and again, which shall be yours. And now you get to put a cherry on the cake with the final suffused with storytelling metaphor. What's a favourite quote that's always given you sucker and pulled you towards your future?

Speaker 2:

Persevere.

Speaker 1:

That's so wonderfully concise Persevere, lovely. What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given? Persevere.

Speaker 2:

Piece of advice. Rosso said to me you're a very good, you've got the mind technique. You've got a very good technique, but you're too timid. Lose that. And I try, though I am naturally shy, but I'm not as shy as I was.

Speaker 1:

And I wonder if timidity, in terms of the clown persona in your case is actually your superpower, almost because there's always a vulnerability and a timidity which I would say was a compliment um, my plan is quite pushy.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes, people who are timid take the opposite in their in their work, don't they? Going back to dictators again I'm not a timid clown really it's opposite to what I are. I really am, but sometimes performers are that good observation, indeed Lovely.

Speaker 1:

And then, with the gift of hindsight, if you could, with the beautiful gift of hindsight, what notes, help or advice might you proffer to a younger version of Nola Ray?

Speaker 2:

Persevere.

Speaker 1:

Love that it's the same thing. Keep on keeping on, persevere. We're ramping up to Shakespeare shortly to talk about legacy. This is the actual complete. Well, it's not a first folio, but this is the piece of. This is the book I bought for myself when I went to the bristol olivic theater school 1986 to 88. So I'll get on to that in a moment. But just before we get there, this is the pass the golden baton moment, please. Now you've experienced this from within. Is there anyone else in your network that you might like to pass the golden baton to, to keep the golden thread of the storytelling going?

Speaker 2:

I'd like to pass it on to a very funny man who is actually running the london clown festival, called dan lees dan lees. He deserves he'd be worth that. He'd be worth interviewing he's he's extremely exceptionally funny man and a student of mine both wonderful, perfect segues in.

Speaker 1:

If you'd be kind enough to furnish me with a warm introduction. The golden baton pass is in the bag. Thank you so much. And now, inspired by shakespeare, all the worlds are staged and all the men and women merely players, borrowing from the seven ages of man stroke, woman, stroke, clown, stroke, mime. How, when all is said and done, nola Ray, internationally renowned mime artist and founder of the London Mime Festival, how would you most like to be remembered?

Speaker 2:

As a mime and a clown. I always put those two together because that's what I think. I am A mime and a clown who persevered.

Speaker 1:

And luckily that's already in the bag, because on Wikipedia it says Nola Rae MBE is a mime artist and a clown, so I think you're there. Nola Ray MBE is a mime artist and a clown, so I think you're there. So, nola Ray, it's been absolutely wonderful interviewing you. Where can we find out all about you and your classes that you're running your clown workshops? Where can we find out all about you on the internet? I've got to put them up yet haven't?

Speaker 2:

I Probably.

Speaker 1:

Facebook. If I do that, yes, yes, facebook. So find you on facebook. And obviously, if we google nola ray, you'll find out one. You'll see loads and loads of wonderful clips and also your iconic posters. Uh, thank you, as this has been your moment in the sunshine, in the good, listening to show. Is there anything else you'd like to say, nola ray?

Speaker 2:

um, I'd like to say, please, please, please, everybody, support culture, support us, support everybody who's who's in culture. Don't put it at the bottom of the heap, because it's so important to everybody's well-being, and its creativity is something that we must not lose.

Speaker 1:

Thank you. So, ladies and gentlemen, you've been listening to Nola Ray international. Wonderful, my martyred clown and a gorgeous human being. Thank you so much for saying yes, Nola Ray. It's been lovely having you here. Anything else you'd like to say? You flatter me.

Speaker 2:

Well, it's, it's about bathing you in sunlight, in an oasis of kindness. So this is what this is about? No, I don't think. I think that's.

Speaker 1:

That's all wrong shots we, we and au revoir. Tune in next week for more stories from the Clearing. Check out thegoodlistening2showcom. This has been Noel LeRae. Thank you very much indeed. Good night.

Speaker 1:

You've been listening to the Good Listening 2 Show with me, chris Grimes. If you'd like to be in the show too, or indeed gift an episode to capture the story of someone else with me as your host, then you can find out how care of the series strands at the good listening to showcom website. If you'd like to connect with me on linkedin, please do so, and if you'd like to have some coaching with me care of my personal impact game changer program then you can contact me. And also about the show at chris at second curveuk on x and instagram. It's at that, chris grimes. Tune in next week for more stories from the clearing and don't forget to subscribe and review wherever you get your podcasts. Nola, you've just been gracing us with your presence and thank you so much. In the Good Listening To Show Stories of Distinction and Genius. Could I get your immediate feedback on what that was like for you being curated through this process and could I?

Speaker 2:

get your immediate feedback on what that was like for you being curated through this process. Um, it was a. It was okay. You stopped me at some point because I wasn't.

Speaker 1:

I had to think so was I interrupting you when I shouldn't have done you mean?

Speaker 2:

no, not really. You tell me these questions like uh, you've got five, four things and I'd already sent them.

Speaker 1:

It's very interesting. People interpret it where they sometimes go into much greater depth. Sometimes it's like you did, which was wonderfully economical.

Speaker 2:

Probably we didn't need them because you know, I've already said it and I don't like repeating myself.

Speaker 1:

Sure, but thank you so much, it's been an absolute delight.