The BLOC Podcast

61: Moving from ID to Senior ID with McKenzie Day

• Episode 61

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In this episode, I chat with my friend McKenzie Day about her journey from instructional designer to senior instructional designer and how she upskilled and leveraged her network to find a new role and a promotion!

McKenzie Day is a Senior Technical Instructional Designer who creates digital learning experiences with purpose. With a background in education, McKenzie started off as an ID in the financial services sector before making the move to tech and joining a software company. Her career has led her to diverse communities of learners all over the planet- from Antigua to Quito to Hong Kong to Atlanta to Indianapolis.

She is an active advocate for DEI initiatives in the workplace, and lives those values by instilling authenticity, inclusivity, and autonomy into her work. Outside of L&D, McKenzie is a voracious bookworm and the member of a feminist community choir.

You can connect with McKenzie on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/mckenzieday123/) or check out her website at www.mckenzieAday.com.

McKenzie's suggestion for anyone looking for a promotion:

Thanks for listening to the BLOC! To learn more and get more great resources:

[heidi_kirby]:

hey mackenzie how are you

[mckenzie]:

i am good how are you

[heidi_kirby]:

i'm doing well thank you for joining me let's jump right in why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself where you started where you are today and anything fun you want to share

[mckenzie]:

yeah so i am an instructional designer in the financial services sector and i just got my first promotion so starting

[heidi_kirby]:

yea

[mckenzie]:

in two weeks i will be a senior technical instructional designer at a remote softer company my background was actually

[heidi_kirby]:

i actually

[mckenzie]:

an education so i taught in international schools all over the

[heidi_kirby]:

a

[mckenzie]:

world and in twenty seventeen i moved to atlanta and became a head of department so i was managing a team of fifteen educators

[heidi_kirby]:

wow

[mckenzie]:

and in march of twenty twenty when we went virtual i really joyed the digital learning experiences i liked you know up skilling my team

[heidi_kirby]:

no

[mckenzie]:

setting up all of the

[heidi_kirby]:

look

[mckenzie]:

courses online working remotely really worked for me and so that was

[heidi_kirby]:

a

[mckenzie]:

kind of the spark for me to transition to id and i recently um when in a job hunt because my current organization

[heidi_kirby]:

organization

[mckenzie]:

announced that we would be returning to office in january

[heidi_kirby]:

m

[mckenzie]:

i was so happy there

[heidi_kirby]:

happy there

[mckenzie]:

and really loved the work had no plans on leaving but

[heidi_kirby]:

sure

[mckenzie]:

it kind of lit a fire in my belly that oh i don't think i want

[heidi_kirby]:

do

[mckenzie]:

to go into an office

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

i'm going to use this as an opportunity so knowing that

[heidi_kirby]:

owing

[mckenzie]:

i was

[heidi_kirby]:

that

[mckenzie]:

gonna

[heidi_kirby]:

i was

[mckenzie]:

job hunt i decided if i am going to leave

[heidi_kirby]:

gonna leave

[mckenzie]:

and look for remote work

[heidi_kirby]:

no more

[mckenzie]:

i want not only to find

[heidi_kirby]:

only

[mckenzie]:

a new position that's remote but i want a promotion i want more responsibility

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

like ideally more

[heidi_kirby]:

more

[mckenzie]:

higher salary would be great

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

but i found you know it doesn't come naturally like people

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

aren't just going to hand you more responsibility so i had to really research how do i do this set myself

[heidi_kirby]:

my

[mckenzie]:

up for success

[heidi_kirby]:

success

[mckenzie]:

advocate for myself and that's what i'm here to talk about with you today

[heidi_kirby]:

that's great i love that and i think that your experience is one a lot of people are encountering right now with the return to office narrative and i've heard some

[mckenzie]:

yes

[heidi_kirby]:

really like your sounds like a very nice transition i've heard some real horror stories of people who move to more remote areas because of cost of living that are now being asked over the office and it's just like

[mckenzie]:

at

[heidi_kirby]:

up ending families and in things like that it seems it seems pretty dire

[mckenzie]:

oh

[heidi_kirby]:

but it seems like your situation was a lot less dire than that yes

[mckenzie]:

i'll say my current organization was completely understanding like they get

[heidi_kirby]:

nice

[mckenzie]:

it that if i if i want to work remote

[heidi_kirby]:

we promote

[mckenzie]:

then that you know that company can't offer it to me that

[heidi_kirby]:

sure

[mckenzie]:

they understood that i was going to look for unities elsewhere

[heidi_kirby]:

that's really good yeah so tell me about kind of how you decided you were ready for this promotion because i think a lot of times we we kind of do that self reflection

[mckenzie]:

ah

[heidi_kirby]:

and we kind of are like am i ready for more responsibility do i think i can achieve this higher title you know we kind of go through that narrative so tell me what that kind of was like for you and how you determine that you did want to go for a higher role

[mckenzie]:

yeah so i think it's a lot of confidence like just kind of believing in yourself and

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

um i put my name

[heidi_kirby]:

my name

[mckenzie]:

forward

[heidi_kirby]:

we

[mckenzie]:

for new challenges and

[heidi_kirby]:

m

[mckenzie]:

explicitly told manager i wanted

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

more

[heidi_kirby]:

wanted

[mckenzie]:

responsibility

[heidi_kirby]:

rsponsility

[mckenzie]:

so i really

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

thought

[heidi_kirby]:

really

[mckenzie]:

about you know what do

[heidi_kirby]:

what

[mckenzie]:

i want to do next

[heidi_kirby]:

to

[mckenzie]:

and i know i wanted not only more responsibility but to kind of lean into the technical side and

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

so knowing

[heidi_kirby]:

owing

[mckenzie]:

that

[heidi_kirby]:

that

[mckenzie]:

um you know i put myself

[heidi_kirby]:

my

[mckenzie]:

forward for projects that were going to be a lot of software simulations and just kind of

[heidi_kirby]:

no

[mckenzie]:

dove into learning captivate and took an advanced course

[heidi_kirby]:

course

[mckenzie]:

on camtasia to

[heidi_kirby]:

nice

[mckenzie]:

build you videotatorials i started volunteering

[heidi_kirby]:

on

[mckenzie]:

for those things

[heidi_kirby]:

those things

[mckenzie]:

just basically by looking at what senior instructional designers do and

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

you know start doing those things i actually

[heidi_kirby]:

i actually

[mckenzie]:

asked some of the senior ideas

[heidi_kirby]:

rides

[mckenzie]:

in my role like how did you get there

[heidi_kirby]:

oh

[mckenzie]:

research

[heidi_kirby]:

perfect

[mckenzie]:

like what's different what are you doing that i don't and a lot of

[heidi_kirby]:

lot

[mckenzie]:

it is the business side that there they were a lot more knowledgeable about the business and building relationships with those stay holders with business partners and senior leaders and so i started to

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

get placed on some of those projects because i asked for it and i proved myself

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

i think i probably

[heidi_kirby]:

probably

[mckenzie]:

could have

[heidi_kirby]:

could

[mckenzie]:

just kept coasting doing the

[heidi_kirby]:

doing

[mckenzie]:

same

[heidi_kirby]:

the

[mckenzie]:

thing

[heidi_kirby]:

same thing

[mckenzie]:

you know

[heidi_kirby]:

sure

[mckenzie]:

for a while but that i'm quite

[heidi_kirby]:

i'm

[mckenzie]:

ambitious so for me i knew i wanted a new challenge

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

and i will admit at first when i was in the room with senior leaders i felt way out of my league

[heidi_kirby]:

m

[mckenzie]:

but i was very organized

[heidi_kirby]:

organ

[mckenzie]:

and i always acted professionally

[heidi_kirby]:

essionally

[mckenzie]:

you know acted like i belonged

[heidi_kirby]:

i belonged

[mckenzie]:

in the room

[heidi_kirby]:

in the room

[mckenzie]:

and i pulled it off and then you know after

[heidi_kirby]:

later

[mckenzie]:

you kind of settle into

[heidi_kirby]:

all

[mckenzie]:

these new projects with more responsibility you start believing in yourself

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah yeah and i think it's also really important to remember it as something that i always forgot when i was like walking into a room with senior leaders is that they're like at the core there people too right like and

[mckenzie]:

yeah

[heidi_kirby]:

it's so easy to forget that when you're at work and you're in that professional setting and there's that like organizational structure like bing over your head and some work places are really formal about their senior leadership to so it can be even hard to get access to those people but the other thing to remember too that go what kind of the confidence piece that you said is that there they don't know as much about instructional design as you do in most cases unless you're working with like a senior director of l n d like you know people in sales and marketing or you know i t whoever you're working with they're not going to have as much knowledge about the day to day instructional design issue are

[mckenzie]:

yeah it's a great iesymbiotic relationship you know

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

they they are experts on the business and i bring to

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

the

[heidi_kirby]:

think

[mckenzie]:

table the learning theory and so keeping that in mind it's more of a partnership

[heidi_kirby]:

yes exactly yeah that's great and i love what you said that the collaboration in the business acumen is really the differentiator because my p h d research is on instructional design leadership competencies that people need to successfully lead design projects and that was the number

[mckenzie]:

yeah

[heidi_kirby]:

one thing that i found was maker break for design projects

[mckenzie]:

m

[heidi_kirby]:

was being able

[mckenzie]:

m

[heidi_kirby]:

to collaborate successfully and have a consistent and constant review process with your subject matter experts and state holders i love that that's what you found too in your experience because that matches my research that's always good but yeah i mean tell me a little bit about how you kind of started um you net worked internally right so you talked to the people who had the roles that you were going for within your organization did you do networking outside of your organization as you kind of started the job searches wow

[mckenzie]:

i did um you know whenever

[heidi_kirby]:

what

[mckenzie]:

i saw a job opening i liked i looked for connections with the organization

[heidi_kirby]:

nice

[mckenzie]:

and i think i used to be a part of t p l d is one of the mentors and that

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

was great way to meet a ton of people and instructional design

[heidi_kirby]:

absolutely

[mckenzie]:

um so i reached out to you know any connections i had even anyone

[heidi_kirby]:

he was

[mckenzie]:

in tech that i knew if you hear of anything

[heidi_kirby]:

here's

[mckenzie]:

let me know any recruiters who i came into contact with like during this job hunt i added them on linked in and started to

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

build

[heidi_kirby]:

love

[mckenzie]:

relationships

[heidi_kirby]:

it

[mckenzie]:

there and then actually

[heidi_kirby]:

actually

[mckenzie]:

what panned out funnily enough

[heidi_kirby]:

a

[mckenzie]:

was a linked in connection

[heidi_kirby]:

in connect

[mckenzie]:

um someone i knew

[heidi_kirby]:

i knew

[mckenzie]:

worked in an organization

[heidi_kirby]:

organizin

[mckenzie]:

that had this role as senior technical instructional designer that i had my eyes on and

[heidi_kirby]:

m

[mckenzie]:

so i

[heidi_kirby]:

so

[mckenzie]:

reached

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

out

[heidi_kirby]:

reached

[mckenzie]:

to

[heidi_kirby]:

out

[mckenzie]:

them and we've

[heidi_kirby]:

and

[mckenzie]:

never

[heidi_kirby]:

we

[mckenzie]:

even

[heidi_kirby]:

never

[mckenzie]:

met

[heidi_kirby]:

even met

[mckenzie]:

person we've only spoken on linked in before

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

um and i had

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

answered

[heidi_kirby]:

had a

[mckenzie]:

some questions about my company for her previously

[heidi_kirby]:

oh yeah

[mckenzie]:

and so this time i was able to reach out to her and she or some questions about her company

[heidi_kirby]:

thing

[mckenzie]:

um and

[heidi_kirby]:

and

[mckenzie]:

she was

[heidi_kirby]:

she

[mckenzie]:

able

[heidi_kirby]:

was

[mckenzie]:

to

[heidi_kirby]:

able

[mckenzie]:

put

[heidi_kirby]:

to

[mckenzie]:

in a good word with her manager and that's the role i ended up getting

[heidi_kirby]:

i love

[mckenzie]:

oh

[heidi_kirby]:

it i love it and that is that's what i really try to tell like new and inspiring instructional

[mckenzie]:

yes

[heidi_kirby]:

designers is that it's not about reaching out to every random recruiter who's associated with a job add like yes of course you can do that and of course it's great to like you know send them a little note and let them know that you're interested but it's really

[mckenzie]:

yes

[heidi_kirby]:

the relationships that you foster and grow and like the connections that you make that really make that network it's not about cold calling people or cold messaging recruiters or you know you really have to kind of intentionally start meeting people like you said t p l d which is teaching a path for learning and development is a really great group on linked in where just a lot of aspiring instructional designers and other land folks go to hang out and there's a lot of people who've been in the field for a long time who hang out there to help and there's a lot of new people who then end up getting jobs and getting roles and not forgetting where

[mckenzie]:

ah

[heidi_kirby]:

they came from and going back and offering that same help so i think that's really great and i think i think that happens a lot right like i and there's something to be said in this more modern work environment right where you mentioned you never met that person in real life i have so many like people who i would call real life friends that i've only ever met on linked in um and it's just really it's different right we're in a more remote world so you can make friends you can make connections you can build relationships on these platforms and network with people

[mckenzie]:

yeah and i think too it's not just trying to interact with people who are maybe higher up the food chain than you but like you

[heidi_kirby]:

like

[mckenzie]:

said like paying it forward

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

so one thing i try to do on linked in is always within t p l d a lot of

[heidi_kirby]:

lot

[mckenzie]:

teachers that are currently trying to transition to instructional design will ask for advice so

[heidi_kirby]:

yea

[mckenzie]:

i try a couple of times a week i go in there and just try to answer questions i'll give feedback if people are asking for that and just make sure that

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

i'm paying it forward as well

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah i've seen like the net working formula there's always like some form of it right where it says like um connect with people who are where you want to be in five years connect with people who are where you are today and then connect with people

[mckenzie]:

m

[heidi_kirby]:

who are where you were five years

[mckenzie]:

and

[heidi_kirby]:

ago so that you

[mckenzie]:

yet

[heidi_kirby]:

can kind of keep that that um like pay it forward but also look forward to your own future

[mckenzie]:

yeah i like that

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah and i think too like i've seen people post like who wants to be my boss right and it will be like someone who landed a role who like now there's a manager position open where they work you never know when that opportunity can arise to where if you connect with somebody who you've mentor right like if their bosses position opens up they can put in a good word for you like oh this person taught me thing i know right and then you could land a job there as in a higher role you know

[mckenzie]:

yeah i do

[heidi_kirby]:

you

[mckenzie]:

actually that reminds me i want to add that i have a mentor and it's someone

[heidi_kirby]:

nice

[mckenzie]:

at my current organization she is amazing we meet every other week and i will say that was a big part of this having

[heidi_kirby]:

having

[mckenzie]:

someone

[heidi_kirby]:

one

[mckenzie]:

that i could ask

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

like dumb questions

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

and maybe you know i'm too embarrassed to ask them publicly but with a mentor we have a solid relationship we've been chatting for here now

[heidi_kirby]:

here

[mckenzie]:

i can ask her anything

[heidi_kirby]:

thank

[mckenzie]:

so that

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

that was super helpful just having someone

[heidi_kirby]:

one

[mckenzie]:

to bounce ideas off of and support me like talk through

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

all these different opportunities and options also just

[heidi_kirby]:

so

[mckenzie]:

her knowledge you know being further

[heidi_kirby]:

m

[mckenzie]:

along in her career was

[heidi_kirby]:

m

[mckenzie]:

super helpful so having a mentor relationship played a big part i would say in my career advancement

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah i love that and so what i what i'm hearing a lot of is that you really kind of took the reins here you took a lot of steps like you were like okay i need to

[mckenzie]:

oh

[heidi_kirby]:

talk to people who are in the role i want to be in i need to learn the tools better i need to network with more people i need to talk to my mentor like you really kind of created this plan for yourself how did you decide that these were all the different things that you needed to do

[mckenzie]:

that's a good question

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

m gosh i think the amount of information is overwhelming so yeah

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

you do have to make a choice like where am i going to focus um so for me

[heidi_kirby]:

for me

[mckenzie]:

i knew

[heidi_kirby]:

knew

[mckenzie]:

i wanted

[heidi_kirby]:

that i

[mckenzie]:

to

[heidi_kirby]:

wanted

[mckenzie]:

up

[heidi_kirby]:

to

[mckenzie]:

skill but i was not going to waste time up skilling on just anything in

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

l n d

[heidi_kirby]:

sure

[mckenzie]:

um i knew i wanted to go into teck when i was making this move i want either technical instructional design role or an instructional design role in

[heidi_kirby]:

oh

[mckenzie]:

tech um

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

and so that's that's really where i

[heidi_kirby]:

we

[mckenzie]:

focused i signed up for code academy so i learned the basics of htmlcssand job script

[heidi_kirby]:

m

[mckenzie]:

um i did advanced courses on both storyline and camtesia and i have been regularly entering the learning hero's challenges all year

[heidi_kirby]:

love it

[mckenzie]:

um i

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

re did a lot

[heidi_kirby]:

did

[mckenzie]:

of them portfolio pieces my work samples that i was presenting to the world

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

so i created like newer technical pieces that showed off these new skills and the

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

write

[heidi_kirby]:

love it

[mckenzie]:

ups as while i added a lot of detail and that i will say paid off because in interviews

[heidi_kirby]:

uh

[mckenzie]:

with two different companies i was asked to walk them through a portfolio piece um

[heidi_kirby]:

m

[mckenzie]:

and they wanted

[heidi_kirby]:

they

[mckenzie]:

to

[heidi_kirby]:

wanted

[mckenzie]:

see

[heidi_kirby]:

to

[mckenzie]:

a portfolio

[heidi_kirby]:

see

[mckenzie]:

piece that's going to reflect the work i would do for them so i

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

was able to say like oh yeah here's a product training video i created

[heidi_kirby]:

create

[mckenzie]:

for a customer education program

[heidi_kirby]:

perfect

[mckenzie]:

um and that was not on my portfolio six weeks ago so that that i knew

[heidi_kirby]:

i knew

[mckenzie]:

that i needed to present strong application materials that showed

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

off all these new skills yeah basically since august i have been trying to learn as much as possible about

[heidi_kirby]:

about

[mckenzie]:

like the land field career paths so i listened

[heidi_kirby]:

m

[mckenzie]:

to a lot of podcast years included

[heidi_kirby]:

m

[mckenzie]:

i read books

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

on agile project management

[heidi_kirby]:

nice

[mckenzie]:

and i think kind of the last step was just re doing

[heidi_kirby]:

doing

[mckenzie]:

all of

[heidi_kirby]:

all

[mckenzie]:

my application materials to reflect

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

this

[heidi_kirby]:

no i think that's important because i don't know if you're like me you look back even couple years like it's been a few years since i've applied for an instructional designer practitioner role so like my stuff is all like a few years old at this time and even now still i look back at it and i'm like gosh if i ever need

[mckenzie]:

uh

[heidi_kirby]:

to like show somebody my portfolio

[mckenzie]:

h

[heidi_kirby]:

i need to do some work

[mckenzie]:

yeah

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

i'm constantly like tinkering pulling stuff off of their like

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

i think when it started i probably had like fifteen work samples and now i'm down to

[heidi_kirby]:

okay

[mckenzie]:

here's three really good ones

[heidi_kirby]:

love it

[mckenzie]:

yeah

[heidi_kirby]:

i love

[mckenzie]:

yah

[heidi_kirby]:

it and i think that's

[mckenzie]:

h

[heidi_kirby]:

so important to from my hiring manager perspective because i just don't

[mckenzie]:

m

[heidi_kirby]:

have time to go through fifteen portfolio projects as much i would love to like we i think this last time i just hired for an instructional design role we had like two hundred applicants and you kind of do that initial initial pass through there were like fifteen to twenty solid people i was like i could interview any of these but i had to narrow it down even further to like it was six or seven and so like you really have to like that's so much time spent in just looking at people's portfolio samples right so to your point

[mckenzie]:

yeah

[heidi_kirby]:

get a few really strong samples that you can two as well but also that showcase what you've been doing not just like where you were at the beginning um if i had my first ever story line project on my portfolio i would be like laughed out of field for sure

[mckenzie]:

yeah

[heidi_kirby]:

but

[mckenzie]:

my

[heidi_kirby]:

you

[mckenzie]:

initial

[heidi_kirby]:

know

[mckenzie]:

flagship projects i've taken those all down

[heidi_kirby]:

yes see

[mckenzie]:

yeah

[heidi_kirby]:

see you learn and you get better and you're like okay this isn't good enough any more and that's okay like it got your foot in the door but it's important to show that you've you've kept growing so yeah i think that's great and i want to talk i definitely want to make sure we have time to talk about like the actual application interview process itself so tell me

[mckenzie]:

hm

[heidi_kirby]:

bit about that

[mckenzie]:

so at first i was applying

[heidi_kirby]:

oh

[mckenzie]:

to anything that i saw

[heidi_kirby]:

i saw

[mckenzie]:

as a step up which included

[heidi_kirby]:

m

[mckenzie]:

senior idea roles but then also land manager roles

[heidi_kirby]:

h

[mckenzie]:

and after about a week of that i'll say this i was very choosy so my thing the whole

[heidi_kirby]:

that's

[mckenzie]:

process

[heidi_kirby]:

good

[mckenzie]:

took about six weeks i applied to one

[heidi_kirby]:

okay

[mckenzie]:

job a day and

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

i would pick out one that looked really good to me and i realized ter a week

[heidi_kirby]:

we

[mckenzie]:

for manager

[heidi_kirby]:

a

[mckenzie]:

roles i've been ahead of department like i have people management skills

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

i have run criculum and teaching and learning programs but i just

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

realize

[heidi_kirby]:

just

[mckenzie]:

that's not not what i want to do right now like right

[heidi_kirby]:

sure

[mckenzie]:

i really believe in serving your time in the trenches so to speak

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

i want to be doing the work i want to be really good at these tools and

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

then maybe in a couple of years think about moving up to a manager role so

[heidi_kirby]:

sure

[mckenzie]:

the first thing was just deciding like i am only going

[heidi_kirby]:

only

[mckenzie]:

to go for senior

[heidi_kirby]:

no

[mckenzie]:

or lead instructional design roles

[heidi_kirby]:

love it

[mckenzie]:

um or maybe even

[heidi_kirby]:

a

[mckenzie]:

an i d role that includes project management project

[heidi_kirby]:

sure

[mckenzie]:

product ownership something like that yeah so i narrowed it down

[heidi_kirby]:

it it down

[mckenzie]:

and was really i think in the end i applied to around twenty five maybe thirty max positions

[heidi_kirby]:

okay

[mckenzie]:

over the course of those six weeks and

[heidi_kirby]:

and

[mckenzie]:

ended up hearing back from five companies

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

i had

[heidi_kirby]:

nice

[mckenzie]:

a couple offers and i found the

[heidi_kirby]:

on

[mckenzie]:

interviews

[heidi_kirby]:

the view

[mckenzie]:

they

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

i don't know that they were more challenging than when i was applying for my first instructional design role maybe they were a little less terrifying actually because now i have a year of experience in the field

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

i feel like my examples are a lot more

[heidi_kirby]:

lor

[mckenzie]:

relevant but you do have to know

[heidi_kirby]:

have

[mckenzie]:

your stuff you can't really fake

[heidi_kirby]:

real

[mckenzie]:

it with the interview you know being asked to walk through portfolio items

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

fact that i did put my heart and soul into these and built them from scratch based on skills that i had worked

[heidi_kirby]:

it's

[mckenzie]:

on

[heidi_kirby]:

fun

[mckenzie]:

um

[heidi_kirby]:

oh

[mckenzie]:

i could speak to them you know they wanted

[heidi_kirby]:

they

[mckenzie]:

to

[heidi_kirby]:

wanted

[mckenzie]:

know in

[heidi_kirby]:

to know

[mckenzie]:

a senior idea role what or some current industry industry trends that you're interested in

[heidi_kirby]:

love it

[mckenzie]:

the questions were more challenging and

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

yeah i found

[heidi_kirby]:

no

[mckenzie]:

i had to really prepare

[heidi_kirby]:

are

[mckenzie]:

strong anecdotes for that senior instructional design role so the types of stories that i

[heidi_kirby]:

reason

[mckenzie]:

was bringing up in interviews were a little bit different i really talked about

[heidi_kirby]:

talked about

[mckenzie]:

times that i oversaw a whole project not just contributed to it but i was

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

like running things um times that i was interacting with senior leaders really bringing in you know practices and learning theory and contributing to teams like how did i

[heidi_kirby]:

how

[mckenzie]:

elevate

[heidi_kirby]:

did

[mckenzie]:

the

[heidi_kirby]:

ee

[mckenzie]:

whole team not just my work but what did i contribute to a whole project team so yeah the

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

types anecdotes that i was practicing were quite different from a year ago

[heidi_kirby]:

i do

[mckenzie]:

but i just i

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

had

[heidi_kirby]:

just

[mckenzie]:

a couple

[heidi_kirby]:

had

[mckenzie]:

o

[heidi_kirby]:

a

[mckenzie]:

stories

[heidi_kirby]:

couple

[mckenzie]:

in my pocket i rehearsed them

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

over and over again and the interviews happened like i feel like i could

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

speak quite naturally to my experiences

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah that's a really great point and i often tell people to do that regardless of the level that they're interviewing for just to write down some bullet points of like things that they're proud of that they've done on the job right like just different situations that they've been in or projects or just like start to think about those and collect those because it's really easy to forget when you're in the moment yeah and if you just have like that list of like here are all my stories here are all my proud accomplishments that i can just glance over at during an interview if i'm asked about like a difficult conversation or something that i'm of or um you know some kind of leadership thing that i've done i can then look at that list and be like oh yeah this scenario that happened to me you know because you know it's even just the last two years since covid time is such like a weird thing and it's so hard to remember all the details and you know i can't tell you ever thing i worked on in a job that i had three years ago so i think that planning is really critical and it really shows intent and it shows that you're always looking to kind of move up and i think that that's another thing that i'm getting from how you've shared about the interviews and the process and the quest and you were asked was that they were really looking for somebody who's going to continue to up skill and to continue to pursue that professional development and not just be like right i'm a senior now i'm coasting you know

[mckenzie]:

yeah yeah for every interview

[heidi_kirby]:

every

[mckenzie]:

i'll say this i rocked up with notes like i have a note book and i referred

[heidi_kirby]:

love it

[mckenzie]:

to my notes and i think that's okay yeah

[heidi_kirby]:

yes yeah i was just chatting with a friend recently who was like well if i take notes like how can i hide them or like where should i put them and i was like just have them in front of you like you know what are what's the person going to do are they're going to yell at you for having a notebook to refer to during an interview like it shows that you've prepared it shows that you're trying to

[mckenzie]:

ah

[heidi_kirby]:

like you really care about this and that you've put thought and time into it you know

[mckenzie]:

yep

[heidi_kirby]:

i love that so in terms of you said you had two offers how did you make a decision

[mckenzie]:

uh uh so they yeah i guess the offers

[heidi_kirby]:

the

[mckenzie]:

were quite similar in that they were both remote tech companies

[heidi_kirby]:

hm

[mckenzie]:

with a lot of

[heidi_kirby]:

oh

[mckenzie]:

technical instructional design both of them the work sounded great the team sounded great it did

[heidi_kirby]:

it

[mckenzie]:

come

[heidi_kirby]:

did

[mckenzie]:

down to well at first it was the package and honestly the offer

[heidi_kirby]:

sure

[mckenzie]:

was quite similar for both i that was another thing i had to really research was how to negotiate and talk compensation and benefits and

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

um not playing them against each other but how do

[heidi_kirby]:

sure

[mckenzie]:

i work with two different offers now like

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

how yeah even if

[heidi_kirby]:

and

[mckenzie]:

base

[heidi_kirby]:

it

[mckenzie]:

salary is different you know you also want to look at the

[heidi_kirby]:

oh

[mckenzie]:

whole package

[heidi_kirby]:

right

[mckenzie]:

um it really came down to feeling like the best fit with the company

[heidi_kirby]:

i like

[mckenzie]:

both

[heidi_kirby]:

that

[mckenzie]:

teams i interviewed with were great the role we're great the package was great and the organization

[heidi_kirby]:

organition

[mckenzie]:

that i'm going to be starting with on october thirty first

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

it just had stellar reviews on glass store

[heidi_kirby]:

m m

[mckenzie]:

um m i've had experiences in the past not where i am now but previously as a teacher working

[heidi_kirby]:

sure

[mckenzie]:

in super toxic environments and

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

that's not something i could ever repeat again so i'm quite

[heidi_kirby]:

i'm

[mckenzie]:

weary

[heidi_kirby]:

quite

[mckenzie]:

like reading reviews get any sense of you know that there's any sort of

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

taxi city within a workplace that's a huge

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

red flag for me so yeah the organization

[heidi_kirby]:

organ

[mckenzie]:

i went with just had stella reviews like through and through on glass door knowing someone who already worked there only had good things to say um that was key also like one

[heidi_kirby]:

like

[mckenzie]:

of the

[heidi_kirby]:

one

[mckenzie]:

things i asked in the final interview which was a panel interview with the whole team

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

how are you all managed like how is

[heidi_kirby]:

oh

[mckenzie]:

what commonitored how is your work load distributed what's work life balance like what's the management style of your leader

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

so asking the right questions helped me set out what was going to be a good fit or me like i probably would not work well with a micro manager

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

i really value flexibility autonomy trust and so yeah i

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

use those panel interviews with current employees to really figure out what's going to be the right fit for me

[heidi_kirby]:

yea

[mckenzie]:

um also lots of practicing like saying out loud what i want salary wise and just kind of

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

sticking

[heidi_kirby]:

love

[mckenzie]:

to

[heidi_kirby]:

that

[mckenzie]:

it like i actually wrote down a script and just practice saying it over and over again so by time

[heidi_kirby]:

the

[mckenzie]:

i got on the phone with the recruiter

[heidi_kirby]:

with

[mckenzie]:

to talk like no i'm

[heidi_kirby]:

no

[mckenzie]:

for me to feel comfortable taking this role i would really

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

need

[heidi_kirby]:

really

[mckenzie]:

this number um

[heidi_kirby]:

i

[mckenzie]:

and

[heidi_kirby]:

love

[mckenzie]:

here's

[heidi_kirby]:

that

[mckenzie]:

why i think i deserve it that was something i just had to practice and drill over and over again

[heidi_kirby]:

again

[mckenzie]:

because that does not come naturally

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah i think that that doesn't come naturally to a lot of people and especially women and you know there's a lot of statistics out there that women are much less likely to negotiate at and to self

[mckenzie]:

ah

[heidi_kirby]:

advocate

[mckenzie]:

i

[heidi_kirby]:

and to really ask for what they feel they're really worth and so i'm so glad that you did that and i would encourage everyone who's listening to do the same thing and i think it's so great

[mckenzie]:

i

[heidi_kirby]:

that two things

[mckenzie]:

i

[heidi_kirby]:

that you turned the panel interview

[mckenzie]:

ah

[heidi_kirby]:

into a mutually beneficial thing because the panel

[mckenzie]:

the

[heidi_kirby]:

interview a lot of times is that they're trying to see if you're going to be a good fit on the team that you're going to be a good fit at the company but it's also opportunity to do the same thing is this company is this team a good fit for me and so i think finding out like you said the culture is really important to you the you know some well it's not as important right so you really do have to figure out what's the most important thing for you in a role is it upward mobility opportunity is it just the cash money like some i just want to sign in do the work get paid and go and that's perfectly fine some people need that culture to

[mckenzie]:

i

[heidi_kirby]:

be supportive and non toxic and to really have like a good good val you system so it's important that i identify what those things are for you and then find out what the questions are that you can ask in those interviews to figure out if it's a good fit and i just love that when everything else was considered what it came down to for you was company culture and i think that in the fields of land and in the in just the professional workplace in general we're starting to see that more and more that people do care about the company culture people do care about more than just the salary um and that we want something that's going to be more than oh well we give pizza parties you know

[mckenzie]:

it's really important to me that employees are treated well and like i have been involved in d and i task forces at my last three organizations so

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

that's something that's really important to me um

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

you know company culture like is it inclusive it's not enouh to

[heidi_kirby]:

m

[mckenzie]:

just be diverse like

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

you can have a super diverse work place but if you don't know how to handle that that

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

could turn out really bad

[heidi_kirby]:

oh

[mckenzie]:

so i think having a

[heidi_kirby]:

having

[mckenzie]:

chance to talk with current employees and try to figure out like do you feel valued do they treat you well it's fair to ask those questions before making a decision

[heidi_kirby]:

absolutely a hundred per cent and you should ask those questions not only is it fair to but you definitely should because the worst thing is to start and be like two weeks in and realize that like yeah well this is really not the kind of environment i want to be working in but now you're stuck right

[mckenzie]:

yeah

[heidi_kirby]:

or you

[mckenzie]:

and

[heidi_kirby]:

have

[mckenzie]:

it's

[heidi_kirby]:

to

[mckenzie]:

hard

[heidi_kirby]:

start

[mckenzie]:

to

[heidi_kirby]:

all over

[mckenzie]:

yeah my current organization is so great like it is really a

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

positive uplifting workplace i am leaving only because of the remote opportunities that are out there like

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

me not wanting

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

to work in a cubicle that's really it like i i love my current team my managers

[heidi_kirby]:

man

[mckenzie]:

are amazing i've grown so much like they are so generous

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

with professional development and for me to leave it had to be a really positive workplace that draws me away

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah and i also think that's a really important commentary on a lot of companies who are are making that decision to bring people back into the office is to consider what you would lose you do that right consider the talent because obviously

[mckenzie]:

yeah

[heidi_kirby]:

you did have a really good relationship and you were taking on a lot more responsibility because you did want that promotion like and whether it was at the company that you were at or at a new company you were working towards that either way and so you know we call that in in the business world in h r a regrettable loss right when somebody leaves is it a regrettable loss like is that somebody who we would have liked to keep and i think that companies who are pushing this back to the first thing are going to find themselves having a lot of regrettable loss so i think that's a really great point

[mckenzie]:

yeah i'm sure you know by making the decision to bring people back in the office there's going to be quite a few of those

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah absolutely all right so my last question for you is if you could pick only one resource for everyone who's looking to up skill and get to that senior i d role what would it be and why

[mckenzie]:

okay so this is not really

[heidi_kirby]:

oh

[mckenzie]:

about idea

[heidi_kirby]:

okay sure

[mckenzie]:

but for me for this particular job transition i knew i was trying to level up to the next step on this career path her money podcast was super

[heidi_kirby]:

nice

[mckenzie]:

helpful so her money it's

[heidi_kirby]:

money

[mckenzie]:

with genchatski and yes

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

she covers the basics of personal finance

[heidi_kirby]:

so i

[mckenzie]:

like saving and investing through this feminist lens but she also gets a lot into careers talking about good management the gender pay gap how to negotiate um you know

[heidi_kirby]:

yeah

[mckenzie]:

that a recent episode i just listened to is ambition not a dirty word

[heidi_kirby]:

yes

[mckenzie]:

that really spoke to me so yeah the her money podcast is great for cultivating that belief in yourself that you can advance your career

[heidi_kirby]:

i love to hear it well thank you so much mackenzie good luck on your first day at your new role and thanks for being on the podcast today

[mckenzie]:

thanks for having me