Welcome to The Parenting couch with Rachel Chappell and Sarah Levett. Honest conversations about what parenting is really like. Because let's be real, it can be hard, proudly brought to you by North Shore Mums.
Rachel Chappell 0:20
Hi, and welcome to The Parenting Couch. I'm Rachel Chappell, Founder of North Shore Mums.
Sarah Levett 0:25
Hi, I'm Sarah Levett, former Brekky radio co host and comedian. Rachel just took us a bit by surprise, didn't it? And so there's actually no formal introduction. So that's what we're doing now. But yeah, because you went about getting this interview because we wanted to talk about single sex education versus co-ed. And so you thought to get our next guest on because he is the head of Barker College where they went from single sex to being co ed.
Rachel Chappell 1:07
Quite recently. Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Levett 1:09
And so we thought that's what the whole interview would be about.
Rachel Chappell 1:12
Yeah. We were went on a different tangent, but a really important tangent and something that neither of us knew about, that Barker was involved with. So we're really thrilled to talk to Mr. Phillip Heath, about his support of the indigenous community.
Sarah Levett 1:29
Yes. And so this is how the interview began.
Phillip Heath 1:32
So we've got 25 children in a little school up there. And they're awesome.
Sarah Levett
What do you mean by you've got 25 children in a school up there?
Phillip Heath 1:43
We've started a little school up there in partnership with the off end foundation and Comarch community of the Yolo people up in the Gove Peninsula. So we took over a little kind of annex school, and there weren't many kids coming and now there's 25, and they're attending, attending, you know, 80 90% of the time, which is unheard of, in remote Australia. Yeah. And this one here, this is by one of my kids from... gosh, goes back a bit now. But he finished it back the year before last. And he's got Western Desert family and Torres Strait Islander families. The kind of link in the colours is represents the coast. And the little circle at the top there. This one here represents the confluence of coastal desert people and the colors of the school written blue.
Rachel Chappell 2:46
That's amazing. What is special piece of art...
Phillip Heath 2:48
It's digitized. So actually, this is a rendering of a piece that's 20 meters by 10 meters in a sports building. So
Unknown Speaker 3:01
well, uh, wow. Thanks for asking those questions.
Phillip Heath 3:04
No, no, well given that obviously very dear to my heart. Yeah, well, I want to talk more about that but I just want to say because obviously this is not visual. You know, a lot of people will just be listening to this so what I'd love to do at some point if it's okay by you is actually be able to put it into our show notes the photograph and so people can actually see the the incredible it's behind you. I look a lot better on on radio.
Sarah Levett 3:37
Is that an indigenous tie that you're wearing as well?
Phillip Heath 3:41
Yeah, I didn't mean to sort of overdo the theming but just Just what was in wardrobe this morning and the kids like when I wear it they always nice tie so it is obvious if you get a haircut that Oh, nice haircuts are the kind of public in that way.
Sarah Levett 4:01
Yeah, guys unsane talking about that a bit more. Because you said it's it's got a special place in your heart this project that that? You know, obviously this is not what we had you want to talk about, but I'm really, really interested in I love that this is something that you've done. So why is special to you, and how did it come about that you started that project?
Phillip Heath 4:20
Well, I've been working on this kind of theming since the mid noughties. So I was Principal of St Andrew's Cathedral School in the city and in 2005 without being you know, too detailed. I got to go to South Africa to a conference and met lots of amazing people and Principles. But I kept thinking we have a significant question still unanswered in our country about our identity and purpose and how we come to be who we are and what's our future. And my sector, the independent sector, is typically just offered boarding places. And so therefore, the majority of the heavy lifting is done by the government sector. And I thought that was not something that I could sit back and watch happen. And nor should I just say that reconciliation belongs to government and government policy. In fact, I think that belongs to all of us. So I'm an educator, that's what I do. My bit, therefore to contribute to the nation is, is maybe in education. So we started a little school. That's where Ethan who designed that joined us in kindergarten in 2007, and graduated in 2019, from Barker, so started when placed finished another with me. And then since then, after a stint in Canberra, I couldn't quite move the wheel. Up here, we've started three little schools, and a very long suffering community that Barker has been prepared to support. We have three little community schools, two in New South Wales, and one up in northeast Arnhem Land. So it's about 100 Plus Aboriginal kids, primary school aged kids going to school today. And I'm seriously proud of that. Actually, if you add the Guerrero kids, it's it's closer to 140. And they're getting basically access into well resourced school education. Because we've reached out and worked with the community. So it's about reconciliation at the individual and personal level, rather than at the policy and political level.
Rachel Chappell 6:39
That's such an amazing thing to do. I had no idea that that you did that. So it's just wonderful. I mean, education is the key to everything, isn't it?
Phillip Heath 6:49
You want to create the future of the country? That's where you start.
Sarah Levett 6:52
Yeah. And everyone's entitled to it, though, as well, I think that's a really tricky part, isn't it? Because we have such a great divide. And obviously, you are at a very privileged, private school in Sydney, and there are plenty of them. And we, you know, there's so much disparity between the underprivileged versus the privileged and so that you are using your position that you're in to do good. What's very moving, it's actually having me very touched. Because, again, I wasn't expecting that to come up in this conversation today. And, you know, I think everybody's entitled to a good education. That's our right, you know, it should be our right, obviously, it's not necessarily, you know, so.
Phillip Heath 7:32
And I firmly believe what Nelson Mandela said that "education is the best weapon we have against poverty", it's the best one we know. And we weren't born to be in poverty or in hunger, despite the fact that the world is struggling with resources, there is capacity for wealth to be distributed. And access and opportunity to be provided. And in my view, the next 10 years will be about schools like this one being challenged to demonstrate the contribution to the public good, not just to those who can afford to be inside the gates. So we we wanted to do something about that. And not because we're obliged to, but because we should, there is a little bit of NIMBY sentiment. So I've had to be very careful to make sure that we sort of firewall the accounts, so that the funds that parents pay for fees for children here are not being distributed to the children of strangers. But if you can get that right, you can do some good things. That's probably not what we're here to talk about.
Sarah Levett
But it's kind of but it kind of is because, look, we're talking about education. So this is vital. And imagine what you just said, Imagine if all of the private schools in this country were doing what you were doing, the difference in that could actually make is quite phenomenal. Yeah. And out of that attitude, like from you, as the head of the school down to all of your students and modeling that and seeing that is huge to the shaping of who they are moving forward as well, and how they go into the world.
Phillip Heath 9:27
Completely. If you flatter yourself to think you've got any influence at all, then you'd hope that they learn that they can do something good and beautiful, unkind in the world. And they learn it from a young age to use their agency to make the lives of others good, not just their own, and in the process that they'll they'll be thriving to it. It's not rocket science, but it's harder than it should be. But I agree with you and one of the little tasks in the years that remain for me is to encourage this kind of thing to be to be leveraged up. So I've been trying to talk to the Commonwealth Government about that. And how do we develop a narrative that will enable that will address the obstacles to people taking risk, by stepping outside their narrow remit to drive their school forward, and see see that their work could be done.
You know, what about disadvantaged people in in other parts of the city?
What about refugee populations?
Are we active, we just keep letting these things be the task of government schools?
I am a great admirer of what the government schools do. And they do things that the independent sector would not and could not attempt. So I'm in awe of that. And you won't hear no word spoken by me about that. But where are we? Where are people like, schools like these are largely missing?
Rachel Chappell 11:01
So I mean, I guess, obviously, one of the main reasons that we wanted to get you on the show today, Phillip was to talk about Co-education, because obviously, choosing a school for your child is pretty much I would say the biggest decision that we make as parents, and there are so many factors to consider. But I think one of the biggest ones is do you choose coed? Or do you choose single sex? And I think what's interesting in the independent school space, I think there was an article written in 2017, only 4% of independent schools are actually co-ed. So the vast majority of single sex. So I'm really interested to hear about Barker and the journey that the decisions you made to turn into a co ed school. Obviously, you've been you've had been welcoming girls from year 10, for quite some time. But you know, to go, Okay, well, let's do this from kindy. It's a big story, but like, what, what was the kind of driving force behind that?
Phillip Heath 12:02
Oh, thank you. And I begin by acknowledging that the choice of school is an incredibly important one. And it's reasonable for people to be very careful and considered about that. Excuse me, it's also reasonable for people to move into absolutes. The best preliminary comment is to say that to know your child, and what suits your child and their interests and skill and to know your family and your own cultural circumstances. They're slightly different questions to the one that you've posed about why we did what we did, maybe can unpack that.
So Barker began in 1890. And there were four girls, right from the start. The Bowman sisters. The local clergyman started the school and his parlor, as often happened in those days up, encouraged him and move down to this location in the mid 1890s. So we've been on this site, and the oldest building on this site is 1895. And but the the Bowman girls didn't come. So from 1895, through the 1975. It was a boys school. And so much of its history and formation was as a boys only school. And that was in keeping with, I think the taste and societal needs and interests of the time.
If you cast your eyes across the North Shore, many of the schools are single sex, not just independent schools. And I think that reflects their origins and the social mores that were at work. Gender was often a critical requirement to define what you do in career and in your social contribution, the constructs of gender, then were, were much more about defining who you were and what you do, and what your role is in the mid 70s, that I think underwent a shift across the world, especially the western world. So in the UK, for instance, numbers of schools established senior COVID experience for senior colleges. The ACT reformed its education system and established senior colleges separating them from middle schools. So that down there, there's the high schools and then the senior colleges as they have. So Barker entered that story in the mid 70s.
And unsurprisingly, we discovered that it was really successful, it enlivened, enabled, diversified and made a lot more texture and colour in the in the, in the kind of character of School investigating in the role of gender in the, in the latter part of the 20th century and into this century has been incredibly contested. And we're all living through that now.
And our sense was your cast right across Sydney? And are there sufficient independent schools that offer choice? Is co-ed a good idea? Does it have positive social, and educational benefits? And the answer to all of those things was? No, there's not enough choice. Yes, it's working well, for us. It's a happy culture. And it's actually enhanced by the addition of girls from year 10.
That happened in the year 2000. Girls came into year 10. And it was only a few years ago that we decided all the way because we felt that that was the time was right, the disruption to students who were asked to move from one school to another was going to be less profound on their families on the cost of providing an education of ensuring the social connections can be sustained. And then we grow up together. So the kind of celebrity of males and females coming together in this challenging time in Year 10, is eased by the fact that we just kind of growing up together and changing such such a big deal. Such a big drama. So that was the story. In the research base, we were unable to identify coherent and definitive research that said, absolutely one model is better than another. And that does make sense. The highest performing school in New South Wales is co-ed.
Sarah Levett 17:02
Is that James Ruse? For as long as I was in high school, it's just so long ago. A while ago, but I just I just say, okay, so you don't have definitive answers and enough research to but what's your view then on single sex, because there is so much emphasis and talk about and we have daughters, both Rachel and I, on single sex for girls, though? I mean, is there not research on that and evidence base, that it is potentially a better option?
Phillip Heath 17:39
I've read that research that suggests that co-ed is good for boys. And single sex is good for girls. Logically, I'm not sure how that works. And I think a lot of it depends on your sampling. And it's very hard to get a proper read in Sydney, where the sampling is so entrenched. If you look at Melbourne, for instance, many schools have gone for CO ed, and you get a much more diverse range of views on that. The girls do as well as the boys in every subject here. It's very difficult than in the lived experience, to say in an absolute sense that girls do better in single sex. I think a lot depends on the family and the nature of the child themselves, rather than on their gender. And a lot of girls resent being just referred to in a definitional way by the gender, which they feel they wanted to move away from that. And I get that and respect that.
I would add, though, this and it's, it may sound a bit surprising. If all of the single six schools became co-ed, it would be necessary to open single six schools. And the reason is because parents should have the ability to choose. There may be significant attitudinal or cultural reasons that are going on. The evidence that suggests that there is absolutely only one way to educate a girl I think, just can't be supported in World Literature just can't be. It can't be in logic, either. Yeah. But if you want that, then there needs to be excellent schools that offer a range of choice to families. And we are aspiring to be that. And in the co-ed space. We want to try to do that well, and we want to try to make it inclusive and respectful.
So when we're talking about really complex questions about gender and identity about power and agency respect, and the cultural questions that are facing the next generation, which I think are becoming more and more problematic for them, and more and more provoking of anxiety, if we can set that in the framework of relationships that are warm and personal and respected and not in the kind of abstraction of ideology to say, well, a boy is always and a girl is always and therefore you must. That's been really liberating for us, and especially watching these marvellous young women who joined us three years ago in Year seven, and now and hitting Year nine. And the boys response to that I was talking to some of the teachers in the cultural space (drama, visual arts music) who were expecting a little bit of a collision, when they got into Year nine, as is some of the stereotypes of boys and girls became more more apparent. That is not the lived experience here. They're saying now, it's just added so much more. And if you will, the relative risk taking of boys is in is empowered the girls and the sensitivity of girls and the gentleness that sometimes I'm overstating this, but sometimes associates with group work is putting a shape and, and, and a kind of breadth in the boy experience that is a gift to them. It's a gift to both.
So yeah, but the summative comment would be, we shouldn't all be the same. I say frequently to visiting families that about 80% of what schools do is exactly the same... from school to school to school. We have a centralised curriculum, we have year based academic program, we all have our science classes, we sit the HSC. The question for parents, and that, that I think is is is very empowering as to work out well, what's the 20% that fits my family, my interests, my child, and my aspirations? If we're all the same, we'd be robbed of that 20%, which is, I think, a richness in the Australian education system that perhaps does not exist as richly elsewhere.
Rachel Chappell 21:59
Do you find in the playground? Did the girls seem to sit with each other? And the like? Is there a division? Or is everyone just friends with each other from you know, it's just, that's just the way it is boys and girls hanging out together? Or to girls during that break time, you know, do they sort of gravitate towards the same sex?
Phillip Heath 22:17
Yeah, they sit in their groups doing their thing, and they're interested in their things. I saw a whole group of us sevens out playing football and kicking the ball around and the guys were in one section, and the girls are in another section or basketball, occasionally it makes but usually. I think what we've learned is to not worry too much about that to make sure that there is equity and choice. So kids can do what they want, but they can pursue their own interests.
And a few years ago, when in another school, we did establish a sort of twinning model. And so we had years seven, eight, and nine, single six classes within a co Ed environment. And when I talked to the kids after about half a year of this, I said, What do you think of it? Isn't it safer for you to just be with other girls and talking about literature or the things that interest you in class and or if there's any awkward subject matter? Isn't it safer for you? They just didn't know this is weird. When when the bill goes and we go off to class, the guys go one way and the boys go another. So we don't want to hang out with them. But we want to hear what they have to say. I thought Yeah. Okay. And that's why when we thought about what will we do here in middle years? Is "twinning" going to answer the best of both worlds? Does it provide any objections to the single six? Is it satisfactorily deal with them by saying well, that we've got single sex classes in the core. But drilling down a little bit further, we felt that we want to normalise the experience of the genders being together. Less sensation, and more about who you are not not what your gender is, and or how you look, just be who you are, and be fully who you are.
Sarah Levett 24:14
But that's an interesting one that I have to say I went to non uniform schools my whole education was in an independent alternative system right for I never wore a uniform until I had a job at the age of 19. So I find that interesting though, because those interesting ones that are at these like schools like yours, very conservative and very old fashioned, they haven't been changed very long or they can be but generally, that's interesting because has that been questioned that you will, like
Phillip Heath 24:47
Uniform is the third rail of of any hits life you know, if you want to have a short career, just just start asking questions about school uniform and trying to modernize the school uniform. Australia is It has to be said, unusually conservative. It's viewed as an instrument of discipline and orderliness and, and, you know, if we have a little email thing called concerns at Barker, and it was originally designed as a, as a kind of safe whistleblower place, if somebody wanted to tell us something that that they didn't particularly want the world to know. But they wanted us to know, well, they could send us this confidential email, and I reckon 90% come for the the uniform on the trains. We don't get help people are wearing the uniforms or a lot of a lot of the general public, don't love young people in groups and find them troubling. I think they're amazing. I love the life of seeing seeing young people together. It's just so so enlivening. But uniforms are an interesting social tool. And I am aware that the conscience requires us to have a uniform, what we've tried to do here is have break some of those boundaries. So slacks can be worn. We were less about the kind of girls must wear a particular narrow band of of uniform, but it's an issue. But curiously, you go to other countries, and many of the significant schools including some I taught in the UK did not have uniform, so it did not in the senior years.
Unknown Speaker 26:47
Well, America is the same as are most of us. Think they were uniformed? I privates,
Unknown Speaker 26:53
Germany, France. Yeah, some do. But when I talk to the kids about what do they think about uniform, particularly if you have a student come over here and on exchange for a while, and they get used to it? They think it's strange at first, but then they say it solves the problem every morning of "what am I going to wear?".
Unknown Speaker 27:10
I'm sure one less decision to make.
Unknown Speaker 27:12
Oh, yeah. I mean, I had an expensive wardrobe when I was wearing like Air Jordans, $250 sneakers? I mean, my mom had to lay out for me to be honest. It was. Yeah, it was fine. I mean, but it came in and said have problems there, right.
Unknown Speaker 27:35
Now, the trick is just No, no, your child, you know, know your own cultural and personal needs and interests. And the less we, we use this as a binary thing, the better for us. Because, seriously, if all the single sex were to go co-ed. And there's a there's an argument in favour of co-ed. But you should open single six schools. The moment you do that,
Unknown Speaker 28:02
yeah, give the choice.
Unknown Speaker 28:03
You've bought. Philip, honestly, and so grateful for your time. I mean, we could sit and talk for hours, quite frankly, because I mean,
Unknown Speaker 28:12
well, I talked for a living, you know, so that's, that's a big danger to every interview.
Sarah Levett 28:18
I mean, I'd love to be able to plug you, I feel like you need your own website rather than just, you know, where I can say go and check out Phillips work, you know, but obviously, if possible, we'd love to get that that artwork into the show notes so that people can enjoy that, obviously, and congratulations on all the work that you're doing and how progressive you are in taking that progressiveness into the school that you're in now, but also what you're doing out into these communities as well, and how you use your position.
Phillip Heath 28:50
As a nation, we we are fully formed. And we walk with a limp. And we're wrestling is no future. In the past, there's no purpose in regret, and guilt. But nor is there any joy to be found in not facing our own story. And we should do that. And we can do that together. The indigenous community is staggeringly generous, considering their experience. And this nation will be enriched by understanding it more fully. And embracing it. There's a there's a missing part of our soul as a nation. So our little bit on that is in the education space.
Phillip Heath 29:50
And congratulations too on this initiative. It really does meet a lot of need in our community just for having an open and discursive yarn about these very difficult. Yeah, well done. Yeah.
Rachel 30:07
We'll bring it bring us all the local mums and beyond and beyond
Sarah 30:12
parenting, you know, toughest gig around.
Unknown Speaker 30:15
Well, yeah. I mean, all of our parents, they're awesome. They're amazing. But we're in orange. Time. Great to talk. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 30:25
Thanks so much for
Sarah 30:28
such a great chat, Rachel. Totally unexpected, the course took there with Philip. Now, we did discuss at the beginning of that interview about the beautiful artwork, the indigenous artwork that was behind Philip. And we said we put it in the show notes but not possible. So what we've done is we put it up on all of the socials. So you can go and have a look at it there because it really is quite extraordinary. So please do go and have a look at that.
Rachel Chappell
Yep. So we've got it on Instagram, Facebook, just search The Parenting Couch podcast. Be sure to like our pages and also follow us subscribe to this podcast. Your support is amazing. And we'd also love to hear any reviews that you have, so be sure to share them on your podcast platform of choice. So thanks for tuning in and we will be back in two weeks time.
