BE Sustainable Episode 2: Are We Crossing The Line? - with Marc Fleming and Fred Mills

In a world of endless possibilities, Marc Fleming and Fred Mills shift the conversation from what we could achieve to what we should. The Line in Saudi Arabia is one of the most interesting, polarising and ambitious urban projects of our time. It promises to revolutionise urban living whilst raising a multitude of questions and concerns for both construction and architecture enthusiasts.  

Our guests discuss the feasibility, sustainability, and ethical implications of this groundbreaking project. They delve into the historical roots of linear cities, examine the technological challenges, and explore the potential for such a project in the UK. 

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Guests 

Marc Fleming

Marc Fleming is programme leader for the BSc Architectural Design Technology at UCEM and a Chartered Architectural Technologist. He has extensive experience in industry, secondary, further and higher education teaching and management as well as running his own consultancy practice.

Additionally, Marc is a member of the Institute of Innovation and Knowledge exchange. Marc is actively involved in a range of working groups and networks that support the transformation of industry and skills/training opportunities.

Fred Mills

Fred Mills is an award-winning entrepreneur and YouTuber. He is a founder of The B1M, the world's largest and the most subscribed-to video channel for construction with over 3 million subscribers, and recently launched Tomorrows Build which is focused on shaping the future of construction. 

Fred has also been awarded an Honorary master’s degree by UCEM for his outstanding and inspiring contribution to the built environment sector.

Transcript

[00:00] Fred Mills: I don't mind saying being totally frank, I do personally struggle to get my head around this when I think about one World Trade center extending sideways for 170. Struggle to fathom that. But then, as I said earlier, I think people before us would have struggled to fathom some of the things we see and do today. So hopefully it's a case of that.

[00:26] Mike Speight: Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Be Sustainable, UCM's podcast today, focusing on digital transformation in the built environment. We have two guests with us today, Mark Fleming. He's a programme leader for the BSC architectural design technology at UCM and a chartered architectural technologist. He has extensive experience in industry, secondary, further and higher education, teaching and management, as well as running his own consultancy practice. Additionally, Mark is a member of the Institute of Innovation and Knowledge Exchange. He's actively involved in a range of working groups and networks that support the transformation of industry and skills and training opportunities. 

Also with us today we have Fred Mills. Fred is an award winning entrepreneur and youtuber. He's a founder of B one M, the world's largest and most subscribed to video channel for construction, with over 3 million subscribers. He recently launched tomorrow's Build, which is focused on shaping the future of construction. Fred has also been awarded an honorary master's degree by UCM for his outstanding and inspiring contribution to the built environment sector. Fred, Mark, welcome both of you today. Thank you for joining us. Today we're going to discuss the line in Neom in Saudi Arabia from an architectural and an engineering point of view, and we're going to discuss to a certain extent the ethical, social and sustainable implications of building something like this. I'll start with Fred. Fred, you've spoken publicly about the line before, but to people who aren't familiar with it, what do you think of the linear city concept?

[02:04] Fred Mills: Well, thanks for having us on, Mike. I really appreciate being here. It's great to be on a great podcast with yourself and mark, and also to be talking about such a fantastically exciting and daringly ambitious project. So it's exciting to be here. I think the line is one of those things that it almost defies logic in a way, when you first see it. And as a linear city, obviously the concept of linear cities has been around for some time, but this somewhat raises the bar and turns the volume up to 100. 

It's a very, very impressive project proposition for those of you listening that aren't familiar with the line. It is a 500 meters tall, 200 meters wide linear city that will stretch for 170 km across the desert. Now just saying those numbers, describing those words, it's extraordinary. It's an extraordinary project idea. The whole thing's mirrored, so it will go across the desert as an enormous mirror. And it's quite hard, I think, when you look at the renders and we look at the design renders to try and sort of fathom what this is and what it looks like, and imagine what it would be like against something, you know, because it's sitting out in the middle of the desert, but 500 meters tall, is about the same height as one World Trade center in New York. 

So that's the tallest building in New York City, the tallest building in the USA. What we're talking about is that building, but 200 meters wide and then extending sideways for 170 km, is an extraordinarily bold and ambitious project. And like I said, it challenges, I think, most conventional thinking around urban planning, and forces the architecture and construction and engineering sectors to step up to the plates and explore how we could build something like this.

[03:46] Mike Speight: Yeah, I still can't get used to those numbers. 170 km long and 500 meters. I just. Yeah, I really struggle with it. Mark, from your point of view, where's the idea of linear cities come from? From a design and an architectural perspective?

[04:03] Marc Flemming: So linear cities themselves are not a new phenomenon. They're typically perceived to be the epitome of good urban planning in terms of allowing growth to manifest itself around transportation networks. However, we look in the past examples of cities like Volgograd and Russia, and more recently, Brasilia, which was heralded as a modernist utopia, whereby a blank canvas, and it was a symbol of Brazil, saying to the world, they're a much more modern country than what the perception was. And part of the drive was to free Brazil of colonial legacy with its previous capital city, Rio de Janeiro. So by creating Brasilia, what, you know, the brazilian government wanted to, was to put Brazil on the map, you know, as an economic powerhouse. 

But, you know, that, you know, their colonial legacy had, you know, was behind them. However, initially, you know, the pilot plan area in Brasilia was, you know, was a fantastic concept. Again, going back to the principles of linear cities, transportation, transportation networks. However, over time, you know, linear cities led to a lot of issues with regards to mobility, you know, social cohesion, an urban sprawl. So the patterns that we learn over time are that cities, cultures, habits, all change. And the line is obviously, as Fred alluded, it's a concept times 100 in terms of getting the infrastructure right at the first time of asking, because the linear city concept, and obviously the line in itself, you know, as predicated on there being no urban sprawl, being good social cohesion. So learning the lessons from the past is an opportunity to embed both in design and the building phase and indeed the operational phase of the line itself.

[05:58] Mike Speight: Interesting stuff. And so, Fred, given the history of this and the sort of thing that Mark's just been talking about, why now? Why all of a sudden is the line appearing as a very high profile concept?

[06:12] Fred Mills: It's a good question. I think there's a few different reasons for it. There's a few converging factors that I think have brought the line into fruition right now. One, I think the main one is Saudi Arabia's desire to diversify its economy. It's created this public investment fund, the PIF, which is a state investment fund. It's designed to invest in projects that will help diversify the country's economy away from oil, which is a large chunk of the country's economy, to other industries, other sectors. So partly tourism, but also a lot of the investment that comes through tourism as well. And the investment that comes with being a more attractive hub, basically in the middle of the world. 

Dubai did a very similar thing. We might remember the tranche of mega projects that came out of Dubai. We had the world's tallest building, we had the Palm Islands, we had the world map. We had the world's deepest pool, world's tallest cantilever, world's biggest, tallest, longest. You name it, they built it. And that felt a bit. Lot of inertia around Dubai at the time. But what they've done there is really diversify their economy away from just oil to tourism. And they've driven a lot more investment in that area. That's very much what Saudi Arabia are doing here now. You don't do that by creating a very mediocre, straightforward city. What you do is get yourself in the headlines to draw attention, attract investments and get people talking about you. And that's very much what they've done with the line. I think that's why the line is the shape it is and why it's as dramatic as it is to catch the headlines and to get people talking, but also to set a bar for the construction industry to help stretch people about what good cities could look like. I think the other reason it's come to fruition right now, or reason it's been proposed right now, is around sustainability. 

There is a real challenge facing this industry right now about how we build and operate our built environment in a more sustainable way. It accounts for 40% of all greenhouse gas emissions worldwide. So understanding what we can do to improve our cities to urban plan in a better way and build in a more sustainable way is incredibly important. I'm sure Mark will touch on this, but at the core of the line's philosophy is this concept of the 15 minutes city. So the idea that you can come out of your front door and everything you need is within a five to 15 minutes walk or bike ride from your house. So that's your doctor's, your school, your grocery store, the place where you work, your friends and family, your local recreation ground. All of that is within walking distance or five to 15 minutes walk or bike ride from where you live. 

Now, what we're saying at the line is it's the similar philosophy. It's a similar philosophy of a series of 50 minutes cities connected across this huge linear stretch of construction. We're not saying that you have to go from one end of the line, 170 other end to buy a loaf of bread. You wouldn't do that in London, you wouldn't do that in New York. You wouldn't decide to go to the other side of Tokyo just to buy a pint of milk. You do it locally, and that's very much the same thing here. So I think on the surface, it's easy to look at the line and see it as a very dramatic, bold, unsustainable, goodness me, what on earth were they thinking? Type proposal. But actually, when you dig into it, there is a lot of science, there's a lot of sustainability credentials and thinking that's gone into that, making it happen. I think it's going to be a fantastic, exciting time to see how the industry gets stretched and how it responds to the challenge and the gauntlet that's been laid down by Saudi Arabia.

[09:37] Mike Speight: And that opens the next question. They've got the headlines. The timing might be right for this, but is it even possible?

[09:47] Fred Mills: I think it is possible. And I can hear people being triggered as I say that because I know there are a lot of people out there who think this isn't possible. And many people have said many things online about why it isn't possible and why it won't ever work. I think it's easy to look at these things when they first get proposed and think they're not possible. But I think people thought the same about the Empire State Building. You know, when before the Empire State Building, when skyscrapers were being built 10, 20, 30 stories high, because we didn't have elevator engineering systems, we didn't have the advancements in steel material manufacturing to enable taller buildings, people thought 100 stories skyscraper would never be possible. 

Now 100 storey skyscrapers are the norm. You see them in many cities around the world. I mean, outside of construction, same thing. You look at aviation. If you describe people in the victorian era accelerating people through the sky in a pressurized tube, 37,000ft above the surface of the earth with their luggage and serve them drinks on the way, people would have laughed at you. It's just out of question. But I think it's a similar thing here. Now, obviously, this is a very, very bold proposal. It goes way beyond anything mankind has built before. But what I'm always struck by in construction is that we make the impossible happened know, we've done that with all kinds of projects all around the world for centuries. Things that you think, how on earth do they build that? This is the industry that makes it happen. So, yes, it feels very bold, it feels very ambitious, and I think it's deliberately been set at a level that is above what mankind can achieve today. But that's kind of the idea. The idea is to stretch ourselves, to innovate, to develop new technologies and to, as it were, raise the line and find a way to make this happen.

[11:35] Mike Speight: I guess that's one major advantage of this project. If and when is the innovation that it will drive out of necessity. Mark, what's your view around the innovation in the field of design and architecture that this could bring?

[11:50] Marc Flemming: Yeah, I mean, it's a terrific opportunity for the sector to collaborate with other sectors, to look at and learn lessons in terms of how we can produce a building and produce a city. More importantly, that can achieve the needs of now, but of the future as well. And the pursuit of innovative practice is something that is widely recognized that the sector needs in order to modernize generative design. Going to the design concept, even generative design, for the listeners who don't have know what generative design is, it's effectively an automated design process that's predicated on goals and outputs. So the design process is effectively automated through a series of inputs and objectives. That could be the distance from the average distance from home to the supermarket to buy a loaf of bread. It could be to restrict movement between a particular property and a particular district. 

So there's a range of factors that can be influenced, and what generative design does is it gives you a range of options and the most optimized solution. And again, going back to the objectives, the most optimum solution could be based on cost, it could be based on socio economic factors, that can improve social cohesion. So generative design as a process is actually ripping up the rulebook of urban planning by traditionally planning in two dimensions. But the line gives us an opportunity to do urban planning on a three dimensional scale. And that's something on this scale has not been done before. We could talk about three dimensional planning from the point of view of a building. But to plan a whole entire city in three dimensions based on multi objective optimization is a fantastic opportunity for the sector to actually demonstrate how innovative practices at the design stage can lead to improvements, both in the construction and during the asset's lifetime. 

So I think for the sector itself, it's a great opportunity to embrace innovation and innovative practices. But that's before we even start putting the spade in the ground. And I think this is the next challenge for us as a sector, is actually understanding the complexities of what we're proposing at the design stage and how that correlates with good design practice, good, strong, cohesive building practices that are going to make the structure and the city last a long time, free from errors, free from continual faults and failings. So it's important that the sector understands the opportunity that lies in front of itself to actually embrace the technology, embrace the opportunities to integrate design, construction and use of buildings. And that's something that happens at a very localized level in buildings in the UK, for example. But that's something that needs to be more mainstream from a building by building perspective, let alone on a city wide scale. So that's a really exciting opportunity for the sector to really embrace that.

[14:45] Mike Speight: Great, thank you. Mark and Fred, how do you see that innovation beyond the design phase? How do you see it feeding into the actual construction of this city?

[14:56] Fred Mills: Well, again, I think it's going to drive a lot of innovation from the industry. I think when you look at this, and I know people listening that might have googled it right now, might be looking at the images, or are familiar with the project. We'll be sitting there with a lot of questions because we've had some construction progress video released. It should be say that is by Nim's promotional team. It's come from them directly, but that shows construction work starting. It shows groundwork starting. It shows hive of activity across the construction site from basically groundworks clearing, the foundation site, loads of piling machines, piling rigs going in, and the piling work starting, and the construction site extending off into the distance. 

Now, we don't know how far that goes at the moment. We don't know if they're building it in phases, or if they're going to build the whole thing in one go. I would imagine it's a phased build approach. But you just got to remember that. Take away the fact you're building 170 tall building across the desert. You're building in a desert, the temperatures are incredibly inhospitable. The working hours are tough. I know for a lot of these potentially very hot middle east countries, they will build in the evening sometimes. So they're not just working in the middle of the day, but it's still 30, 35 degrees at night. Sometimes there's a challenge of getting water resources, transporting labor to the middle of the desert. There are lots of challenges here to make this happen. But then we built the Burj Khalifa, we built the Golden Gate bridge, we built the Empire State Building, we built the Channel Tunnel. 

These are things that people at the time thought were extraordinary challenges that just couldn't be possible. So it's an immense challenge, as I keep saying, but I think it will drive innovation. The construction industry is going to surprise us. I don't mind saying being entirely frank, I do personally struggle to get my head around this when I think about one World Trade center extending sideways for 170. Struggle to fathom that. But then, as I said earlier, I think people before us would have struggled to fathom some of the things we see and do today. So hopefully it's a case of that.

[17:03] Mike Speight: Yeah, absolutely. Mark, could we build something like this in the UK? I mean, the working temperatures would make it a bit easier to deal with, if nothing else. But clearly there are a lot of other factors involved.

[17:16] Marc Flemming: Yeah, I mean, I think obviously, first and foremost, the UK is very much governed by a lot of legislation and a lot of demands, particularly national planning policy, for example. So we are a much more conservative country in relation to the design and planning process of buildings, cities and indeed infrastructure. You've only just got to look at, you know, the challenges we've got trying to build HS two at the moment in terms of the planning side of things and indeed the construction of that. But what we've got to look at, though, is the opportunities that this building can bring, or the city, sorry, can bring, and the lessons we can learn from that. 

Again, going back to the design stage, are there lessons that we can implement into our design, our design philosophy in the UK, at a city scale, but even at a localized level and a building scale, the challenge for us in the UK is we're very deep in regulatory compliance. You know, you look at the Building Safety act, the post Grenfell challenges that the sector faces in terms of ensuring that the workforce has a level of competency, including buildings being up to standards with regards to building regulations. So there's a whole myriad of challenges that have impacted and probably held the UK back over the years in terms of architectural creativity in its buildings. You know, you look at Spain, for example, as a country where architectural freedom is something that is quite valued in the architectural fraternity there. And the city planners are obviously very keen to ensure that their cities resemble the past, but showcase opportunities to innovate. And I think in the UK, there's a lot of lessons that we can learn from anywhere in the world, let alone building a linear city.

[18:59] Mike Speight: Okay, thanks, Mark. Fred, is there a future where you can see we could produce a more scaled back version of this in the future? Would it be more viable?

[19:10] Fred Mills: Raoul? Definitely. I think looking at some of the lessons learned that are going to come out of the line around how do we build our cities in a sustainable way? How do we connect people with sustainable mass transit systems? How do we design 15 minutes low carbon cities that don't rely on cars but revolve around people? There's some fantastic lessons we can learn there. I think some of the innovations that construction the line will inevitably drive, pulling out that learning and bringing it into how we build future cities, whether they are linear cities or more conventional cities, I think is going to be incredibly important and powerful. I think going back to the point where Mark was just talking about then, whether it's viable in the UK or could we see scaled back versions of this in the future, I think it all comes back to the need, the why? Why would we do that? What do we need to be doing? What's the top priority for our society? 

As I said earlier in Saudi Arabia, there is this drive at the minute to really diversify their economy and drive investment and a project. The line does that perfectly. It completely fits the bill. It gets you international attention, drives investment, shows your ambitions very clearly and really sets a bar for the rest of the world to follow. It puts a landmark down on planet earth that is very much associated with your country. Other countries aren't so much in that place, but what they are looking at doing is trying to build more low carbon societies. They're trying to cut their carbon emissions. They're trying to build in a way that creates affordable, sustainable housing for people longer term. Many cities around the world are currently grappling with the affordable housing crisis. 

So I think it's a question mark about where it's the right horse for the right course. Basically what I'm trying to say, you need to think about the current challenges that each individual country is facing and then look at what is right for them in terms of urban planning and development. I think. I struggle to think of any city in the UK that has perfect urban planning, is incredibly low carbon, has affordable housing, no pollution, no congestion. I think we've got a lot to learn from this. Do we need a linear city? Probably not right now, but I think if there's learning to come out of this, then it should be welcomed again. Mark said just a moment ago there about the UK's building track record recently. Look at things like Crossrail hs two and you think, goodness me, if we're struggling with those, Elinia City might be a bit of a stretch, but yeah, we'll see.

[21:36] Mike Speight: Okay, so I think we've established that this is a project that has the wow factor. The numbers are challenging to digest. If nothing else, I think we've established that with innovation, it's possible. Let's move on to the. Should we. If we can build this, should we build it? Fred, do you want to talk a little bit about the major sustainability implications of the line?

[22:02] Fred Mills: Yeah, definitely. I think there are many that jump out to you because they are talking about building a low carbon city. They're talking about a place where there is sustainable mass transit. There are, I think, zero emissions, no cars anywhere. It sounds very utopian, to be quite honest. But then you look at the. Going back to what we spoke about a moment ago, the construction challenges, the volume of concrete and steel that would be needed to construct something like that. Now, we don't know the construction materials yet, but one would assume to build something like that, of that scale, of that height, in that location, steel and concrete are going to play a role at some point. There could be sustainably sourced mass timber in there. I would hope there would be. There could be other material innovations as well.

But just from a raw materials perspective, there are sustainability questions. When you then come onto the operations side, you've got to think about distribution of fresh water across a 9 million person society in the middle of the desert. The infrastructure that goes into making that happen would be enormous. It's a similar thing with power generation, power grids. It's a similar thing again with air conditioning is going to be a naturally ventilated building. There are some very good natural ventilation techniques that have been used in many cities around the world, not least Barcelona. And in some of the. Going right back to roman empire designs. It's interesting looking at some of the cities at the minute, they're grappling with climate change and incredibly hot weather scenarios like Phoenix and Arizona, which are doing some really interesting things to try and cool their urban environments. What we're talking about here is an enormous structure in the middle of the desert, which is an incredibly hot environment to start with. So just off the top of my head there, I've come up with several questions around the sustainability implications of this. 

On the more positive side, what we are talking about here is an incredibly reduced amount of urban sprawl. So you've got a 9 million person city, but taking up a much, much smaller footprint on planet Earth than somewhere like London, which has also got around 9 million people altogether in the greater London area. So it's sort of arguments both ways, I think. Yes, there's the opportunity here to build a low carbon society that does have a pretty minimal impact on the environment. But I think getting there, the construction process, unless there is some kind of secret sauce they haven't told us about yet, or there's some very clever tactic, there's a lot of carbon going in here and a lot of environmental impact to make this thing a reality.

[24:27] Mike Speight: Yeah, absolutely. Mark, any view on how long it might take to offset all of the carbon that goes into the construction phase?

[24:37] Marc Flemming: Yes, I've read that 1.8 billion tons of carbon embodied carbon will be produced during the design and construction phase of this. Now, offsetting that. But if you compare it to the UK, whose annual carbon output is 300 million, you can see the differences in the challenges that we face. We're dealing with an unprecedented level of materials, unprecedented conditions, building something that scale, as Fred alluded to, a hospitable environment. The sanitation required, even for the construction phase of that, is going to be a challenge. The building itself is fraught with a number of challenges. But as we've kept referring back to where there's a challenge, there's an opportunity. And I think for this building of this, sorry, a city on this scale, there has to be an element of innovation, there has to be a speculate to accumulate in respect of carbon emissions. However, let's not lose sight of sustainability being just about carbon. Sustainability is about cohesive communities. And that's something that, you know, urban sprawl has been shown over time to really begin segregating people where typical. 

Again, I'll refer back to Brasilia, where you've got favelas, which are effectively your kind of suburban districts that are effectively where the poorer people who work in Brasilia live so having a city on this scale, I think one of the biggest challenges that we have is that, first of all, we're dealing with each module being 800 meters long in length. And I think the biggest fear of that is that we start compartmentalizing people into a particular district, in particular job roles and particular functions. So what you might actually find is that lesser paid jobs may be in district one and then you go to district two. You're in the financial district. That may attract a different type of person who wants to live and work in that particular district. So it's very. It's getting very orwellian in terms of where, you know, what, what possibilities there are here. 

But as I go and go back to the design phase and the design, you know, we should be effectively designing that so that, you know, that, you know, the algorithmic outputs, you know, replicate good, sustainable practices, you know, in terms of how communities integrate with one another. And I think cross fertilization of cities is what makes your big cities great, where you've got a cross fertilization of people with different cultural backgrounds, different economic backgrounds as well. I think it's so important that this is not just about creating a city. And I think cities themselves and building very large buildings and very large projects, they are symbols of economic prosperity. I think this is an opportunity for Saudi Arabia to illustrate, yes, you know, their economic prowess, but also an opportunity to give the wider world an opportunity to look at what the future of Saudi Arabia looks like as a progressive, modern country. And that's something that should go hand in hand with the line and how the line is designed, how it's built and obviously all the ethical considerations that come into that.

[27:56] Fred Mills: Yeah, no, I think it kind of goes to a question for me about. And I'll be interested in your thoughts on this. Mark. Can you really custom build a city from scratch and have it be as successful as a city that's grown up over centuries, like New York, London, Barcelona, Madrid, other places like that. I think of there's the big, famous custom built capitals. There's Canberra, Brasilia, Washington DC. There are smaller custom built cities in the UK. Milt McKeans, Wellingarden City, Letchworth, Garden City. These might be names that, if you listen to the US, you never heard of before, but they are cities in the UK, I can promise you, outside of Washington DC, which I found really compelling. I've never really found custom built cities that were built in one go as appealing as somewhere that is more culturally diverse. Am I right in saying that, or is that one of the big inherent challenges here, do you think, for the line?

[28:53] Marc Flemming: Yes. Even close to me in Scotland, there's two modern cities in particular, or towns rather than cities, but even at the scale, they were built to support the manufacturing industries. So these modern towns were built to support local manufacturing. In Fife, they had glenrothes, so there was coal was the local export in Fife. But you obviously had a lot of shipping and engineering works down by the harbours there. So Glen Rothes, a new town, was built in that locality. Similarly, in other parts in the west of Scotland, you've got Cumbernauld, again, to support the local engineering and manufacturing towns. Now we know what's happened to manufacturing in the UK. So a lot of these towns were predicated on there being an economic driver. And that economic driver, over the years, has gradually subsided to the point where these cities are obviously not as attractive as they once were, because people are having to then travel out with that city to work. Again, Milton Keynes was probably attractive because it was quite close to London. 

So, again, the commuting routes into London make it a commutable distance, but that's probably not what was initially designed for. So I think the challenges we've got to look at here are, are we designing for the now, or are we designing for the future in mind? And at this moment in time, I don't think any of us know what the next 50 years are going to look like, you know, in any city. But I think the point. The point I'm trying to make, and going back to your original question, Fred, is that communities are built up over time. And I think your progressive cities that will embrace immigration, they will embrace. Look at cities like New York and London. 

The cultural diversity there leads to, over time, stronger community cohesion. And I think that's something that's really, really important with this project of this type, is that you're building something in the middle of the desert, legacy of anything. Again, Brasilia tried to adopt that with Brasilia, but Brasilia was at the hands of time. It was at the hands of attitudes changing. It was at the hands of trends changing. It was at the height of transport becoming people owning their own cars. Yet Brasilia wasn't designed for people having their own cars. Fads will change. And I think adaptability and versatility is so, so important, and that will ensure that it's much more sustainable development than something that is built, as you said, to demonstrate their economic strength, rather than a place that people want to come work and live for future generations.

[31:32] Mike Speight: William, I suppose that's part of the opportunity here because the scale is the factor. All of the examples that both of you have quoted around planned, in the UK at least planned towns and cities, and you could go back to salt air or Bourneville, you can look at Poundbury as the current example. I dont know how many poundburys would fit into the line, but its a hell of a lot. The scale of being able to develop something like the line, I suppose, means that you do have the investment and the opportunity to do the mass transits, to do the city level air cooling. 

These kind of initiatives, they're doable at scale, but maybe they are just one offs for something of that scale because you can't necessarily scale that down. I think one of the interesting things for me from what Mark was saying was around how cities and buildings are being designed and how they could be designed in the future. Because this whole concept of designing communities is just not there in that way at the moment. Does this mean that the whole lifecycle of a project has to start with a broader range of stakeholders upfront? To think of the line, is there a 9 million strong client out there waiting to occupy the line or where are these people going to come from and how have we factored in their needs if we don't know who they are? Sorry, that's a really long, rambly question. But Fred, do you want to have a stab at pulling something out of it?

[33:17] Fred Mills: Yeah, I know what you mean, Mike. I think it's one of those products that does kind of make you sort of mince your words. I've done it as well, where you just try and fathom how this thing could work because it is enormous and you're right, you've got 9 million stakeholders and I think there's a, theres an element of build it and they will come to this. I think there was that with Dubai as well. I think weve seen it a bit in chinese construction development in recent years and many projects across Asia as well. And I think that build it and they will come. Strategy is okay, but youve got to make a place that is appealing to 9 million people of a diverse range of ethnic social backgrounds and doing that is extremely difficult. 

I think thats the advantage these cultural centers have, the iconic cities of the world have, and that a custom built city perhaps doesn't have to start with. I think what the line would have when it first opens is that immense appeal of saying I live in the line, we're in the line, we're based in the line and the investment that will drive from those who can afford it will be impressive. I think. You'll see billionaires, you'll see big companies, there'll be an Apple store, I'm sure there'll be a Starbucks, the stuff that goes with any major city these days. But do you have the diversity of backgrounds, do you have the diversity of wealth, of labor, of cultural backgrounds to make a city truly successful? That's the question. Are they going to be affordable houses? Who's going to live in them? Where are they going to move from to get there? The list of questions goes on and on and on. Im not saying its a reason that it shouldnt be done. I think it underlines the challenges of what were trying to do here. Its an immense challenge for the industry.

[35:05] Mike Speight: William, Mark, you and I have talked before about what happened in the run up to the Qatar World cup and the construction effort there, and the need to bring in a workforce to build eight stadia, nine stadia, whatever it was. Where's the workforce going to come from for this? And where are they going to go afterwards?

[35:29] Marc Flemming: Yeah, and that's one of the biggest challenges that our industry is facing, is a skill shortage and a whole host of design, construction, management, professions and roles. So I think the biggest challenge is about recruiting the workforce that has the capabilities, first and foremost, and we can talk about low skilled labour. And low skilled labour is low skilled labour. It tends to be exploited and it tends to get that negative connotation attached to it, for it's an opportunity to bring in labour at a low cost. And the malpractice that we can look at in terms of how migrant workers in particular were treated during the Qatar World cup, the danger is we're replicating that on a city scale, as opposed to, obviously, a series of stadiums and infrastructure. 

So I think the biggest challenge we have is, again, we could look at. I remember in the 1990s, my dad and my dad's friends and so forth were attracted to build Dubai. They were attracting electricians, they were attracting people with the requisite qualifications from the UK to go out and build Dubai. And this will be no different. But there comes a point where do you have the requisite level of qualifications and experience to deliver on this? And if we look at some of the items that we're facing in the UK, for instance, post Grenfell, there is a big push on competency, ensuring people have the requisite levels of qualifications to do a particular operation on site or off site. And my fear is that we lose that because the demand is on about building and just getting this built, get this city built, as opposed to let's build it right first time. Let's have good quality, let's have a good ethos in terms of how our workers are recruited, how they're treated, and indeed what happens to them at the end of a project or a phase of the project. 

I think that's the biggest challenge and that's the biggest uncertainty for me is that where will these people come from? Now we can look at an opportunity to automate construction processes, we can look at an opportunity to reduce the amount of site labor, but we're struggling to build buildings with automation in mind, let alone a whole entire city. So there's big challenges and big questions and big reservations I think that I have in terms of having the requisite levels of skills and the suitable skill sets to deliver this project. And that goes right back to the planning stage as opposed to think about things from a buildability perspective. So a lot of questions remain unanswered about that. But going back to the points we've been making about taking this compartment by compartment as opposed to thinking about this as a 127 kilometer city, actually break it down into its first module, how do we build that? 1st 800 meters. And that for me is the sequential process, because time will change, processes will evolve, people will evolve, materials will evolve. 

And we may even get to a point where each module is representative of a particular period, you know, a ten year period. We have the, you know, the 2020s module one, we have the 2030s module two. And that chronology may actually be a success that illustrates, you know, for generations how our construction and engineering processes have evolved from module one to module, you know, 100 or whatnot, you know, so I think that's a, that's an exciting thing for me. If I was a kid and if I was a younger person, looking back at that, I'd see this as a great way to basically show how the industry has evolved over the stretch of 127 miles.

[39:15] Fred Mills: That sounds amazing. As an architecture and construction geek, to walk through the line and get that kind of history of evolution from one end to the other would be absolutely incredible. I was listening to your talk, Mark, and I wonder if the labor, the skilled labour challenge is actually going to be more pronounced outside of Saudi Arabia because of the, the amount of resources that Saudi Arabia basically is going to draw in. We've seen already there's money to be made. There are big name architects, Adas Zaha Dean, architects Foster and partners Acom. Some of the big consultancy practices are already heavily engaged in Saudi Arabia and the Neom projects, they are spending the money, they're attracting the biggest and best talent out there. 

I think the line, I have to say, as a side point, is a really good thing for encouraging more people to take a look at this industry, particularly in the context of a skills crisis, to get young people excited about what's possible, about what we can build, about how to shape the world. It's done a fantastic job of putting construction and architecture on the front page of newspapers worldwide and getting people talking about this industry. It is going to draw in more talent. I would hope it draws in more talent as the construction works progress. But I wonder if it's going to be more of an issue, as I said, outside of Saudi Arabia, because of the amount of people, talent, resources that are going to be drawn in to this immense project that is being prioritized, that is being invested in to an extent that you wouldn't see these kind of construction fees or consultancy fees paid elsewhere in the world.

[40:43] Marc Flemming: Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I think one opportunity that we have is, I remember being on a course down in London a few years back and there were graduate apprentices who worked for one of the large consultants that you mentioned, Fred. But part of their apprenticeship was a global apprenticeship where they got to go to the Middle east, they got to go to Australasia, they got to go to the United States. And I think your large organizations will be able to attract a talent pool and retain them just by virtue of giving them exposure to the global marketplace. I think there's a lesson to be learned there in terms of what are we doing to support our young people post qualification. I think thats one of the biggest challenges any business has is once you have an apprentice, lets say through their qualification, theyre looking for that next step, they may be looking for that next financial increment on their salary, that they may get a practice across the road.

 So the retention of staff post apprenticeship across trades and construction professions is a challenge. Its a major challenge. And as you said, Fred, the opportunity is to be drawn to this development for the financial, let alone the weather. There's an opportunity there for us in the UK as businesses to actually think about how can we get on the supply chain of this project so that we can retain our staff, but actually give them the opportunity and the experiences they want? Because younger people in particular these days are very much, their approach to life is completely different from when, you know, even going back. You know, when I graduated in 2002, it was very much about getting to employment and get on the ladder. I think there's a different approach now where people are much more concerned about things like work life balance and about, you know, their general happiness.

 And I think the opportunity to, you know, perhaps engage in a skills and training system that gives people the opportunities to travel, but to learn while, you know, instead of learning while, you know, earn a. Actually earn value travel. So I think there's opportunities there that obviously it's much easier for a larger tier one to engage with that. But the alternative to that is, as you said, Fred, we lose skills from the UK in particular. As a country, we have a very respected education system globally. And with that there comes an element of credibility if you have a UK degree qualification, for example. So that makes our graduates very, very attractive. But that leaves us in a predicament if we've already got a skills shortage without contributing to that through the financial, and the lucrative financial rewards of potentially being based on a project in the Middle east for however long, you know.

[43:45] Mike Speight: Thank you, Mark. In the interest of time, I'm going to have to draw this fascinating conversation to a close. We're running out of time for today, but I think it's one we may choose to revisit in the future. I think certainly there's follow up on the line specifically, but a lot of the topics that we've covered today just remains for me to thank you both for what certainly for me has been a fascinating conversation today. Fred Mills, Mark Fleming, thank you both so much for your time today. Really enjoyed the conversation. Really interested to hear what you've had to say. That's it for this episode of be sustainable. I think it's likely that we'll come back to this topic and hopefully Fred and Mark will be available to join us again in the future. Gentlemen, thank you both.

[44:33] Marc Flemming: Thanks, Mike. And thank you, Fred. Thank you.