#11. The Magic of Self-Acceptance & Healing Depression with Mushrooms.

Sometimes, no matter what you try, there are times when your mind drowns you into a loop of negative bias. With an increase in isolation & alienation from nature a disconnection from the experience of being part of the living creation in this materialistic era has swept in.   

With like of some of the biggest names in personal growth , medical field and VC  running make it mainstream, there has been a renaissance of the psychedelics touted as a revolutionary way to treat depression, PTSD, anxiety and as well as be a catalyst for perception shifting  for seekers towards understanding deeper areas of human existence.

We invite the most down-to-earth, kind, warm Michelle Janikian, an award winning psilocybin educator, journalist, author & influencer to dispel myths, fears on it and share her tips on how one can set intension, get creative, and expand your mind to many possibilities. 



Michelle Janikian is a journalist and the author of Your Psilocybin Mushroom Companion, the down-to-earth guide that details everything you need to know about taking magic mushrooms safely and mindfully, published by Ulysses Press. Michelle actively covers psychedelic and cannabis education, harm reduction, and research in her work. She writes a column for Playboy about psychedelics and cannabis, and has also contributed to Rolling Stone, High Times, Psychedelics Today, Herb, and others. She’s passionate about the healing potential of psychedelic plants and substances, and the legalization and destigmatization of all drugs. Born in New York City and raised in New Jersey, Michelle studied writing and psychology at Sarah Lawrence College before traveling extensively in Latin America and eventually settling down in Southern Mexico. Michelle was recently awarded the Cosmic Sister Emerging Voices Award for her work covering the psychedelic renaissance.

Transcript

0:12

Welcome to this powerful container of infinite possibilities to a highest state of awareness. Join me. Should we shut that tie as we uncover the pathways to the world's most illuminated leaders, Seacoast creators. And perhaps even some saints

Sri: 0:33

Today's guest is Michelle Jenny Kim, who is a journalist and author of your psilocybin mushroom companion. Down to earth guy that details everything you need to know about taking magic mushrooms. Safely and mindfully. Michelle actively covers psychedelic and cannabis education, harm reduction research and her work. And she's been featured in Playboy magazine. Rolling stones, double-blind magazine and psychedelics today apart from many of us. I've always been so curious about learning about psychedelics in terms of therapy and treating people. P T S D anxiety and depression. Many of my circle in the last four years have been talking about it. And I thought what better than to reach out to someone who educates people? So Michelle came into my space. And she very kindly in the most sweet way explained patiently about all my myths Fios around psychedelics

1:37

We speak about how she used it to get out of her depression. Using an as a tool for introspection and allowing it to reveal and expanding your mind. And even how it helped to land a book deal. Listen, if you want to know more. And Tiffany. Honestly, feel free to reach out. I'm a DM. Oh, we at hello Nirvana. World on Instagram. Do check out her guide on Amazon, the links have been low. And please remember to get help and speak to a professional before you self-diagnose or embark on any internal journey. Thank you and hello nirvana

Michelle: 2:18

Thank you so much for having me.

Sri: 2:20

I'm extremely excited because you're probably the first educator that I'm able to connect with. You've written a book about psilocybin education. Your whole mission is to spread out information and reduce harm that happens and also debunk all the misconceptions out there. Can you first start with the basics? What is Solice Simon

Michelle: 2:45

Yeah. I wrote this book, your psilocybin mushroom companion, and it does exactly that. It tries to debunk a lot of the myths and one of them is, what is suicide minivan? So basically it's the main, psychedelic compound in magic mushrooms. And, it's what gets. Turned into Silicon in your body. And that's what produces the signature psychedelic trip that happens when you eat magic mushrooms.

Sri: 3:11

So when the psychedelic trip happens, can you explain what is this? I could like trip.

Michelle: 3:20

there's a lot of different psychedelic experiences and mushrooms are just one of them, but, you know, it's, um, I can't even begin to explain it. That's a really good question, but it's like a lot of people start by explaining it as like an expanding of your consciousness. Right. It opens your mind a little. And that's definitely what I find with mushrooms. It's like a four to six hours where. I am really seeing things in a new way. So like literally, sometimes things look a little different, they breathe and sway and move around a little, but not that's what the psychedelic part is like when you stop. Yeah. the word psychedelic actually, Means mind revealing. And so I also find the psychedelic. That is also what I experienced in my mind, because I think differently. You know, sometimes I have like less of a chattery mind. I'm planning less, I'm thinking less about the future and the past. And I'm like very much more in the present, similar to meditation. You are still thinking I'm at moderate doses, low doses, and it gives me this great sense of a new perspective on things. So sometimes that's like my own life and my emotions and how I react to things. Sometimes it's bigger. It's like life in general, big questions. You just see things from this like slightly new point of view. Sometimes it's like a bird's eye view. I'm like seeing my life. Like from above in a way. It's going to be really helpful, really healing, I can help you solve problems. It can help a lot of different things.

Sri: 4:56

Uh, that sounds really scary to a lot of people. When people take psychedelic their whole point of view of their reality shifts so drastically. I'm curious, but if I take this, what if, what I think is true is not true anymore? I think that's what happens a lot of times, and I've spoken to a lot of people and that's scares them. What do you have to speak to that?

Michelle: 5:19

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And that's something people should know before embarking on such a deep journey in their own minds. Right. Because that is something that's possible. I think that a kind of common thing that happens on your first big mushroom journey is that some of your deeply held beliefs can be flipped up on their head. Yeah. Like sometimes these things that you live your life every day, believing you can see on machines that maybe they're not as true as you thought. Maybe they're not as big of a deal, but that can be scary and people should know that going in because yeah, like sometimes things about yourself that you're pushing down. You don't want to face. We say in the psychedelic community, that, that's the most likely to bubble up when you're on a psychedelic. So if you're running away from a lot of stuff in your life or in your past, you can't go into a psychedelic experience looking to keep pushing that stuff down. It's likely going to come up, but we also talk a lot about. harm reduction in the community. And you can prepare yourself for this experience. You can prepare your set and setting, which is the thing we love to talk about, which is your mindset and your environment. And if you're in a comfortable environment and you set intentions and you set your mind. To be open to any experience that can come. Instead of that whole experience, being really scary and terrible, it can be really positive and enlightening. It can be trends in dental, it could be Nirvana, but yet it could also be traumatic and, or traumas coming up. But maybe you can learn to deal with them or forgive yourself for things that happen. There's a lot of different stuff, right?

Sri: 6:59

I wanted us to expand upon the reason why they were banned around the world, somewhere around the Nixon era where they were against two things, more political issue was against the far leftist and the blacks. And hence they decided to do things that these two communities loved. They went against, psychedelics. And that's when United nations put out, a treaty to ban no substances, How do we make sense with why they're so much a fear? Is it another way of control? What do you like to speak on someone who's still trying to understand what is this drugs and why is it kept as such a bad guy?

Michelle: 7:39

Right. Yeah, I think you make a really good point that a lot of these substances, especially psychedelics, like mushrooms, LSD, they were made illegal in the late sixties, early seventies with the controlled substances act and you're right. It wasn't really based on science. Cause there was a lot of science at the time that was showing LSD could be used in a therapeutic setting, just like. Seeing these studies. Now it's a little assignment and MGMA and it was a, it was more a form of control. It was more form of a political act against like, yeah, the hippies and the far left and yeah. Black culture as well. And Mexican culture, like any kind of minority culture, really that. They want it to suppress at the time. And then now here we are 50 years later trying to legalize this stuff for medicine when there's still people going to jail. and there's still right. Indigenous groups that their medicine has been illegal for like 200 years. And now we're like, actually we're going to charge$10,000 for white people to receive this in a therapeutic setting. So, yeah, there's a lot to wrap our heads around. And I think that right now, if you're trying to look at this from a way to understand, That if we want to legalize psychedelics for therapeutic use or anything like that, then we also, at the same time need to be, giving reparations back to indigenous cultures or making sure that marginalized voices have a really big say in how these become legal and who gets to profit off them. Because if it's only pharmaceutical companies while there's. I still like black and Latino people in jail, or, these kinds of things for cannabis and LSC. We have a lot to reckon with as a culture before we can. Take this to the next level, but there are a lot of activist bringing attention to this stuff. And so

Sri: 9:30

do you have any recommendation of activists that we should follow that sort of do some work in America?

Michelle: 9:37

Yeah. So there's a bunch of decriminalization efforts happening right now in the U S and I think that's a really important thing for people to learn about that. Before we legalized the mushrooms for therapy, I think we need to decriminalize personally. I think we need to decriminalize all drugs, but let's start with psychedelics. It might be easier for people to swallow and with decriminalization, it's not legalization, but it means that, the possession of these substances is the lowest. Priority for police. And so if you're caught with a personal amount of mushrooms on you, you're not going to be sent to jail with these mandatory minimums, this kind of stuff. And it doesn't give the police the right to search people as well. You can also join initiatives, decriminalize nature.org. There's a, it's like they're starting initiatives in a hundred cities. And so likely in your city, there is a group forming, or you can form one yourself and, uh, help to decriminalize mushrooms. And yeah, there's. Are there activists looking into the step as well? I do a lot of work with double-blind mag. They like to, bring this issue to light. So

Sri: 10:47

And so all this information that's out there, they're more and more people awakening to the benefits. So suicide, but of psychedelics. In a way, people call it a conspiracy periods, a way to suppress people so that they don't have access to their own inner minds and a channel in which you could explore your creativity or your connection And there are people like you who are on forefront who heard her talking about the real things that need to be set, but now it's been said by someone in group, So now it seems cool and mainstream to do this, but what's happening in these layers of our. Pop culture. Can you tell us over here, listening. How do you use psychedelic as a way to expand or connect with yourself while all this is happening on the outside world?

Michelle: 11:39

Yeah, no, that's such a good question. So, the first thing you do want to do is do a little research, do your homework, right? So you want to find out like, What's maybe the best substance for you, like keeping in mind that, all this is illegal. So we are talking about like, when, you know, maybe purchasing drugs and breaking the law. But, uh, if you're like, wow, I really can't do that. There's also some legal options outside of the U S so if you decide, okay. I think mushrooms is my medicine or Iowasca is my medicine. Maybe your, then your second step is maybe applying to a retreat center cause these exist, in places like. Peru for Iowasca and Jamaica and the Netherlands for mushrooms. you can go somewhere and do this legally. But then, I don't think that's necessarily, a lot of folks are just using the stuff at home and getting a lot of benefit. And I think if that's the route you want to go down, then yeah. Doing your homework and deciding what's the best. substance for you, is it maybe mushrooms, something else and then doing your homework on how to prepare? Because if you just take mushrooms spontaneously at a party or something, it could be kind of overwhelming. it would be harder to learn from and go deep in your subconscious if you're in like a really stressful environment. So. I wrote this whole book on like ways prepare yourself and then things to consider when you're preparing. So then I have all these things I recommend in the book, but you want to think about who you want to do this experience with. Maybe it's by yourself. Maybe you want to trip center, which is a sober person. You enlist to just keep your physical body safe while your mind wanders the psychedelic plane for a few hours. So there's a lot of preparation step you want to do Prepping your set and setting. Like I talked about maybe getting a trip setter, choosing your medicine setting some time aside. and then in the actual experience, you just want to be accepting of whatever comes up, even if it is a little difficult, even if it is a little, it brings up some shame or men or whatever kind of negative emotion the trick is to just. Accepted read through it. Let go to it, see what's on the other side. And then another crucial aspect of this whole process, for really using psychedelics to tap deeper into your mind or to reconnect with yourself is how you incorporate your psychedelic experience into your life. After the fact, we call this psychedelic integration in the community. But it's this process of you can have a crazy trip and just be like, I never wanted to think about that again and sweep it under the rug. And that's probably not going to change you or help you connect to your inner power. But if you keep pondering your experience and you keep reflecting on it and there's different techniques for this, whether you're just walking in, in the woods and thinking about it, or you journal about it, or, you meditate on it. Then you can start to find out ways to use your realizations with the insights, from your experience to better your life. And I think that's like the new component that we've added in this new, like 21st century psychedelic movement is like you trip, but then you also have to reflect. And for me that has really changed things. Versus using mushrooms as a teenager for fun. And now in my thirties for growth, sometimes if I have an experience on mushrooms where I see something I'm really ashamed of some of them behavior on man, why do I always do that? Like, why am I so demanding with my partner?

Sri: 15:15

identifying your little patterns and loops where in the world. That is bringing you suffering or pain to your life.

Michelle: 15:22

Yeah. And when you see that on psychedelics, then when you come back to the world, You can make a change. And I think that's where that's where the growth happens then you can stop getting stuck in that cycle. You can stop always reacting to stress that way, or, whatever it is when that like then causes pain to someone else. And I think that's the really beautiful thing about. This whole process is that you really can use this to become a nicer or a more authentic or a more fulfilled person. But it's a lot of work.

Sri: 15:54

it's also doing your life review and seeing where the nooks and the corners of your mind that are still stuck in limiting beliefs. And psychedelics has this It gives you into the drama that's playing in your yeah. Psyche and it's bringing it in front and helping you review it. And the best you could do is just watch it. And once you're done you write it down and then you ponder over it. And I think that is the most important part that now we're having so many clinics. We've got like the first clinic in New York. That's a siliciden clinically, assisted. Therapy space. When you're going into this particular experience do you have a technique If you're someone who wants to look into your life and make changes, is there a methodology that they could do that makes it easy to go into those difficult places to objectively look at them?

Michelle: 16:47

Yeah, that's a good question. as far as like a methodology, what you can do is if you think you have a lot of stuff that you want to work on and you think it, it might be a little too difficult to do on your own, or, things in your past that are heavy, trauma, then you might want some kind of facilitator. It could be like a guide or a therapist of some kind and they exist. Like you mentioned, in the underground with psilocybin right now, also in the U S in clinical trials. So like NYU is doing clinical trials in New York, Johns Hopkins, in Baltimore. and these kinds of facilitators will not only like sit with you during your experience and making sure you're not really scared and that you can, just sit with it and experience it. They'll also help you afterwards. To integrate it and to figure it out and to maybe, turn that kind of challenging experience that you had, seeing your shame or your fears in front of you. turn that into lessons, turn that into change. Turn that into actionable steps you can take to not repeat that cycle. and it is very much cognitive behavioral therapy because it is very much about mindfulness. And, another thing I wanted to say is aside from doing. Facilitated siliciden experiences. You can talk about your siliciden experiences with trained therapist, actually give you any drugs, but they will be open to hearing about it, healthy diet, digest it or figure it out. If it's kind of like metaphorical, which can happen for a lot of folks in my book, I do have some chapters on how to actually. Go through the experience, right? And if you are doing this for change, one of the things you want to do bright before is set an intention for your experience. So if you're, if you're going in this to do some deep subconscious work, that would be your intention. Like, I wanna. See my own mind or something like that, just some kind of intention that shows the mushrooms or your subconscious that you're here and you're open to whatever they have to show you. And then when you're actually in it, and that's a good question. We do have some techniques for the actual tripping experience, when it does get really. Weird or dark and scary. What do you do? And honestly, the first thing you do is kind of like meditation, it's breathe, it's breathe deeply and mindfully. And even those sound healing tools that you use at the beginning of the show could help for something like that. Redirect your attention, you know, just direct it onto your own breath, your own body, um, that can really help folks.

Sri: 19:22

Orange juice is that, does that work?

Michelle: 19:26

Potentiate the trip. if you drink orange juice at the same time you eat your mushrooms. The citric acid can begin to break down the mushrooms and make it come on a little stronger and faster.

Sri: 19:36

Okay. I got wrong information clearly,

Michelle: 19:41

if you're actually in it and you want it. Stop. Yeah, that's a little less, uh, are there things you can take? Maybe I don't really, but I don't really recommend people do that. I think it's best to try to go through it, breathe through it, try to accept it, you know, try to let, go to it. I think a lot of how mushrooms can work for things like. Addiction and eating disorders is that in the moment when you're overwhelmed by the trip, you are learning how to let go to things. And then when you're back in your everyday life, you can kind of be a little less, maybe little less controlling about your eating or a little more controlling over your drinking or things like that, because you've practiced this letting go mechanism, you know, you've, experienced this profound new. Place in your mind where those thoughts aren't as, loud and, you can find this like new peaceful place inside of you. It works differently for everyone, but yeah, you, it is very much when you're in the experience, just accepting it. I know it sounds really hard.

Sri: 20:43

the word acceptance is now become so difficult. It's like self-acceptance. What does it mean? I know it's like, I love and accept yourself as yeah, I do. I think, but how, you know, and I think it's also like an evolution. maybe it takes time, maybe it's wisdom for you to finally come to keep asking these questions that helped you to go to the next stage of your life or your own thinking of who you are with that. I also wanted to know you took psychedelics as a kid, I remember, my experience it was all us friends who sat together and had a first acid trip I did it as a way to have full spectrum of an experience of who I am when I'm young. And this is part of to see how my mind expands. I was lucky it was a good, safe space. Got to see all these interesting parts of your brain. Spoke to a painting. And it was quite comical, but it was beautiful I was able to tap into an intellectual aspect of me that I wasn't getting in the real world. I would love for you to talk about your experience was it profound when did you decided this to be a path and career, and your mission to help this education

Michelle: 21:59

That's such a good question. For me, even though I have had really profound experiences, it was more about how I had some less than positive experiences as a young person, my late teens. And I didn't know that there was all this harm reduction info that there's all this. Psychedelic use info. And I was just doing things a little bit, crazy and spontaneous and I got myself into some dangerous situations and it wasn't all mind expansion and butterflies, right. It was like, what are you? I need a ride home. I'm with all these strangers, and so when I learned about all the harm reduction stuff, I really wanted to share it because I felt like I had often. Yeah, done stupid things. And I wanted to show people that there was like a smart adult way to do this. That could be really beneficial instead of dangerous. And when I did start and I changed my mindset and I started using psychedelics with intention I started learning a lot about myself. I'm someone that's. Um, struggled with some depression and anxiety since I was a teen and although mushrooms haven't totally cured, it they've really showed me new ways to deal with it. And, new ways to find inner confidence that I didn't have before inner strength, because another thing mushrooms can do, even though I talk a lot about how they can bring up. Scary and shameful stuff. They can also give you this incredible feeling of self acceptance and self love and forgiveness. So like even when sort of negative things come up, you can be in this like place of, just really forgiving place where you can forgive your parents for that stupid thing they did when you were a kid, but you can also forgive yourself for, for so much. And so. When I was spending a lot of my depressed days, like beating myself up for things I wasn't doing, or wasn't doing enough of, or wasn't doing well, enough mushrooms helped me see that that was all me and my choice. And I can change the way I think I don't have to drag myself down every day like that. Me and now I spend a lot more of the day just looking forward and being present and dealing with things without the dread and the, Oh, am I doing this right? Oh, is there a better way to do this? Like, yeah. Those are healthy thoughts to have sometimes to make yourself the best version of yourself that you can be, but sometimes they get in the way and sometimes they bring you down and sometimes they're a little paranoid because. You're actually taking things a little too far. Maybe that person isn't reacting that way, stuff like that. And so, my mushroom journey I feel like I'm still in the beginning of my path and still learning how, everything works and how they're helping me, but they do Help me get to this place where I've had this experience on a pretty high dose of mushrooms, where I just realized that I can do literally anything I want to do. The only thing that holds me back is me and my own anxiety and my own depression. And if I can get over that stuff, then. Then I can do anything. And I am, I wrote a book I'm starting all this, writing all these articles, doing all these podcasts,

Sri: 25:12

Is it true that the mushrooms told you to write a book on mushrooms? Okay. It was really cute

Michelle: 25:19

so, yeah, I mean, it wasn't like a direct download like that, but I actually got the offer to a publisher, reached out to me and they were like, do you want to write a book on mushrooms? And I was like, I'm not sure. Let me ask the mushrooms. And they were like, Hell. Yeah, we, we told them to go talk to you and yes, this is your path. So maybe, I don't know, a little bit, sometimes, you know, we talk about entities in the psychedelic community and we, we, other things where like the mushroom said to do it,

Sri: 25:52

that like the metaphysical world Is psychedelic like this. Beautiful mother nature. This entity that comes and takes you through this beautiful journey What are these entities

Michelle: 26:03

yeah. So yeah, for some plant medicines, especially mushrooms, and I you can feel a presence when you were on a high enough dose. Now not everyone feels this and some people interpret a different way. So I don't think there is like a hard, fast rule. However, I had felt the mushrooms and a lot of folks in the community do believe, that all plants have an intelligence of some kind, just not, might be the type that we can understand with our human brains. And I think that the actual, the mother, I relate them more to the mother Iowasca and for mushers, for me are actually a different presence. They're kind of like little tricksters and, Yeah, they like to laugh and they like to laugh at you and they like to play games. And I feel like what they like to show me is that I am taking things a little too seriously sometimes, and I should make more time for play. That plays really important. And I always go in asking all these serious questions. I'm like, what should I do? What should my next book be? Am I on the right path? And they always just kind of laugh. For me. And they're like, you're doing it. You're already doing it. Just keep doing what you're doing and you'll be fine. but it's different for everyone. I think some folks in the community might say that we're just like othering our own consciousness and that might be true. It's very human thing to do. And I don't think there's anything right or wrong. It's only comes down to is this helping you? Does this. Serve you, and it won't serve everyone. If it doesn't, you don't have to take mushrooms again. You don't have to listen. Right. But if it does, you don't have to force it on anyone else. it's just a message for you. And it can be helpful. It can be confusing. The messages from the entities, you can be like, wait, what? But, um, I think that, that it helps people kind of. Psychedelics can also give you this sense that we're part of something bigger than ourselves, which also helps people, you can get out of your daily grind and like, Oh, if I don't finish this on time, I'm dead like that. Shit's not actually as important as you think it is, even though, jobs are important in everything, but mushrooms can really give you this big picture sense of. Your life and the world, then that can be helpful for folks. you know, just realizing that you have actually a little bit more time and space to do things and you usually give yourself and, Yeah. And that, that it's important to be present and playful in your life as well

Sri: 28:36

with that. I mean, what is a big question? I think a big fear this judgment that. Once you find this part from the plant medicine or, you know, the higher entity that tells you, everybody's scared that they're going to leave their jobs and go and become a slacker somewhere, and when it's like, Oh, we don't need this capitalism. I don't need this big, fancy home. I can live with less. Is there a good balance? I know you dabble in psychedelics and you have a pretty great career. How do you merge these two worlds?

Michelle: 29:07

It's a balance. And I think that's something that's like, Alex also teach me, is that everything is a balance, right? Yeah. Okay. I'm maybe I'm getting a little too deep on the town. I think it shows like maybe it's in my integration, but that, there is no light without dark. For instance, there's no happy without sad. Right. There's no success without slacker ism perhaps. Especially mushrooms help you see that you need both. For me, I mean, it's a good question, right? Because. If you see that things like money, aren't really as important as you used to think. I don't think that has to, that doesn't typically translate for people to like dropping out of their lives. And that was a thing in the sixties though. So it's the stigma that's held over because back then, we were in this much more traditional culture in the us. And people weren't happy, but you also think back then, women weren't considered equals not to mention people that weren't white, like any person of color. It was like a second class citizen. It wasn't really hard time to be a non white man and psychedelics were showing people that was a whole. Social constructions. And that was bullshit and that we should change the world, but like now we have changed the world, right? there's still a lot of work to be done, but the culture has evolved a lot since 1967 and the summer of love. And I think that people, one of the lessons that you can also get on psychedelics is that. Like the most important thing is connection. Like human connection and staying connected and helping each other. So I don't think that you're gonna. drop out of your life and your family and stuff like that from psychedelics, you'll probably see that you want to become a more active part in your community, if anything, and some things you can see are a little less important, but that's probably a good thing. you probably see that, like for me, for instance, Yeah, I can see that. money's just a construct, but I need it but you can have a balance. Like I can do something I'm super passionate about and share this information with people. I don't make a lot of money. But it's just enough to live a lifestyle that I'm comfortable in And I'm really happy doing the work I do, and I feel really fulfilled. And so I think that it doesn't. It doesn't have to translate into like some kind of slackers and dropping out. I think instead it often translates into being more engaged in your life and your community. I think that's like an old hippie stigma that's survived

Sri: 31:35

but tell me what's happening now in a political, such a macro level. There's still another awakening happening. A lot of people have been exploring Psychedelics. What do you. think the trend in how it's going to be using and how it's going to shape people's psyches. What is that a trend that you're hoping for that's going to happen in the future?

Michelle: 31:59

I do hope that decriminalization continues but as far as how are, how is mushroom and psychedelic use during this very pivotal time in our culture? Like Canada affect our culture? Like I think so. I hope so. I think that people, can become more open-minded. I think one of the things I love about what the psychedelic experience can do is that it can make you a little bit more empathetic and a little bit more. Self-reflective and so you can see like how you're more mindful and you can see how your actions reflect others. And you can also get a little bit of insight into the perspective of other people. What we need in this, toxic time is just like more understanding, listening, not just pretending to listen, like really being present with another person, hearing where they're coming from and meeting them halfway. I think that's something that our culture, Struggling with meeting each other halfway. We're all in our own worlds. We all think we're so busy, so much more busy than everyone else. no one else could really matter, but really that's the farthest thing from the truth the only thing that really matters is other people and like, how can you serve them better? And how can you be the best version of yourself that is helping other people out. And I do think that psychedelics. Offer a little insight into that. For some you have to kind of go in looking for it, though. If you just go in looking for, you're going to go in looking for what you want, essentially, and that's what, how we work. But I do believe that it is possible to just become more mindful and reflective people and that can make us nicer to each other. And if we're nicer to each other, That could create a better culture, but it's a lot of steps.

Sri: 33:45

it almost feels like an, a topian idea that we all can understand each other, but I believe it's happening more and more corporates are getting into, using psychedelics as a way to self reflection using it in vision quest. And part of so many entrepreneurial groups are like really high end retreats so that you can take this in a trip to recognize what's coming up, work on your psyche, upgrade yourself, and then come up with your next Q2 business plan, and it's quite fascinating how people have come up with interesting businesses. What has been your favorite exploration of someone who's used drugs to come up with something?

Michelle: 34:29

Oh, that's such a good one. I do feel like there has been a lot of like, great art and music created under the influence of psychedelics. I don't have any specific examples. I mean, there was that boring. One of Steve jobs took acid and came up with Apple, right? I'll probably think of something later. I can email you.

Sri: 34:49

Yeah, done. I'll put it in the show notes have you had anything that you've created apart from this book or any realization that you've had, that is your favorite memory that you could leave as well?

Michelle: 35:01

Yeah. You know, I don't often. Well, that's a good one. Yeah, I guess I wanted to say that I don't often like go into psychedelics looking to create like a new piece of R or Bension. It is usually very like an introspective journey. And I look to just get to know myself, do like a kind of spiritual check-in, but I have been creating besides the book, I'm using more personal experience in my writing and journalism on psychedelics and when I do do that, I will go into the trip being like, okay, today I'm going to take acid and MDM at the same time for research and see what it is. Like for journalism. And that I actually did that. I wrote an article on candy flipping. You can read it on double-blind Mag's website and Ella's a really cool experience. Cause I went in thinking like, Oh, this is just going to be a fun and crazy time and I'll write about it. But it actually was like a super deep and like heart opening journey that I'm like still integrating, but, you know, but it was very personally, it was very much like that. That I am like a strong, smart person that can do anything I want and that I can write this article and I can make it the best that I want it to be. But it's always so much more than that. Maybe someday I'll invent. Some crazy thing while on my shoes, but I usually am just like forgiving myself for being too hard on myself. It's usually much more of an internal process.

Sri: 36:36

Then self is such a big task Hercules. Tosic really reinventing yourself, putting yourself back together. What you said was really interesting that you can create beautiful pieces. You fight, you went into these, trips to write something fun and something much more deeper and marched. Is there a technique if someone's listening and they're already right. A lot of things, is there a technique to bring in coherence? To what you experienced

Michelle: 37:04

yeah, it is hard because it can be very, ineffable we like to say that it's hard to put it into words, just like their like, experience, but I mean, a trick would be to bring a notebook and a pen on your journey. Right. And to take a couple notes, even if it was a little weird insight. So little things, I do feel like those details really help, especially if you're trying to write about the psychedelic experience, but if you're trying to write anything like creative writing or something, you know, make it part of your whole process, like set an intention, like, Oh, I want to use this trip to be a more creative writer and yeah. Bring your journal with you. Maybe you're journaling beforehand. If you can't journal so much during don't be so hard, but when it wears off, definitely do as much free writing as you can. And, and just think about it and just be in like an open place and read other triplet too, I imagine. But, you know, setting your intention really. Does help guide your trip. And so if you're going in with a creative intention, just make sure you set it out there to the universe first. And that, that really helps.

Sri: 38:14

No, that's really helpful. do you have any kind of ritual that you could lead us through someone who's curious about exploring this particular path?

Michelle: 38:24

So I do think that your own little ritual or ceremony is a really good way to, to like, create your container for your psychedelic experience to be meaningful. I personally like to make my mushrooms into a tea and while I'm doing so, it's like, Focusing my mind on the task ahead and I'll set my intentions and I'll just think about my expectations. And I do also often make an altar in my home. So, it's like my little spiritual signature. I'll put some items of significance and offerings and candles, things like that. And coming back to my altar when I'm joining the journey and sitting there and praying, and just trying to commune with the mushrooms can be a really deep and spiritual experience. yeah, that's really helped. I didn't always use mushrooms like that. It's kind of developed this way, but it has taken my. Journeys to a deeper level that I'm really grateful for. So any kind of ritual though, that speaks to you, like go more into depth in the book, different things, different people do, but it just helps set your mind. Right. And I think that really helps set the whole journey on like a good course.

Sri: 39:35

I wanted to do a last, question, which would be, what is your path to Nirvana?

Michelle: 39:42

I mean, that's such a big question, but I do have to say that. psilocybin mushrooms absolutely helped me on my path to Nirvana, whether or not they're the only path. I'm not sure, but they are definitely.

Sri: 39:56

Well, that's really wonderful. And thank you so much. I've learned quite a bit not to drink orange juice how to set really good intentions. And that self-acceptance is the key. And no matter what you do.

Michelle: 40:12

Yeah, totally. I agree. Oh no, thank you so much for having me. This has been super fun. I love talking to you about this stuff.

Sri: 40:18

Thank you so much for all the work that you do.

40:20

And with that, we come to an end. Please follow us on Instagram at hello Nirvana world. Like share, subscribe and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for your valuable presence. Goodwill goodbye and vishing you hello nirvana