Chewing the Gristle with Greg Koch
Rick Vito RETURNS!
What if you could blend traditional blues with inventive hooks to create a sound that captivates audiences? Join us on "Chewing the Gristle" as we welcome back the legendary slide guitar virtuoso Rick Vito to explore this very question. Rick takes us inside his creative haven in Tennessee, where he crafts his latest masterpiece "Cadillac Man" surrounded by iconic instruments, including Peter Green's Armstrong archtop and a nearly century-old National Triolian.
Our conversation with Rick Vito also dives deep into influences that have shaped his illustrious career. Hear about his collaborations with the soulful Ronnie Barron, the intricate techniques of sacred steel and Indian musicians, and the journey of blending diverse sounds to forge a unique musical identity.
We'll also talk about encounters and performances that have left an indelible mark on our musical journey. From the electrifying Peter Green tribute concert featuring legends like David Gilmour and Pete Townsend to the enduring influence of Otis Rush, Chuck Berry, and BB King, this episode celebrates the soulful expression that defines great guitar playing. We also discuss the excitement of new guitar models and upcoming tours, all while emphasizing the importance of a family vibe within guitar companies. Don't miss this episode filled with passion, reverence, and the timeless spirit of the blues.
Dedicated to helping musicians achieve the truest sound possible whenever they plug-in.
Wildwood Guitars
One of the world’s premier retailers of exceptional electric and acoustic guitars.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
What if you could blend traditional blues with inventive hooks to create a sound that captivates audiences? Join us on "Chewing the Gristle" as we welcome back the legendary slide guitar virtuoso Rick Vito to explore this very question. Rick takes us inside his creative haven in Tennessee, where he crafts his latest masterpiece "Cadillac Man" surrounded by iconic instruments, including Peter Green's Armstrong archtop and a nearly century-old National Triolian.
Our conversation with Rick Vito also dives deep into influences that have shaped his illustrious career. Hear about his collaborations with the soulful Ronnie Barron, the intricate techniques of sacred steel and Indian musicians, and the journey of blending diverse sounds to forge a unique musical identity.
We'll also talk about encounters and performances that have left an indelible mark on our musical journey. From the electrifying Peter Green tribute concert featuring legends like David Gilmour and Pete Townsend to the enduring influence of Otis Rush, Chuck Berry, and BB King, this episode celebrates the soulful expression that defines great guitar playing. We also discuss the excitement of new guitar models and upcoming tours, all while emphasizing the importance of a family vibe within guitar companies. Don't miss this episode filled with passion, reverence, and the timeless spirit of the blues.
Dedicated to helping musicians achieve the truest sound possible whenever they plug-in.
Wildwood Guitars
One of the world’s premier retailers of exceptional electric and acoustic guitars.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
At long last. Ladies and gentlemen, season five of Chewing the Gristle is indeed upon us, a convivial conversation fest between myself, gregory S Caulk, esquire and a variety of musical potentates from hither and yon, brought to you by our friends at Wildwood Guitars and our friends at Fishman Transducers, of course, both of which I've had long-standing and continuing relationships with, and I'm very grateful for their continued support in this endeavor to bring you Chewing the Dog on Gristle. We've got a bunch of fun guests, some you have heard of, some maybe not so much. It'll be a little bit of discovery and a little bit of chaos all rolled into one. Thanks for tuning in folks. Now, without any further ado, let's chew some gristle.
Speaker 1:This week, ladies and gentlemen, the return of the mighty Rick Vito, one of my favorite people, favorite Sly guitar players of all time. He's got a brand new record out which I love, and we also wanted to chew the gristle a little bit about his participation in the big Peter Green tribute concert in London a year ago or so. So let's get to it, let's chew that gristle with Rick Vito. Doggone it, or so. So let's get to it, let's chew that gristle with Rick Vito, doggone it. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, we have gathered once again around the gristle fire, if you will, for another installment of Chewing the Gristle. We've brought back the mighty Rick Vito. He's got a brand new record out and since last we have conversed with him. He's done some exciting things and we thought it'd be a good opportunity to get together and catch up again. Rick, how the heck are you?
Speaker 2:I'm doing just great, fantastic Gristle great, excellent.
Speaker 1:Now you're down in. Tennessee as we speak. I'm sorry You're down in tennessee as we speak yeah, I'm in tennessee.
Speaker 2:I'm in my dining room where I have the wall of some of my greats behind me, um and I. This is where I come to to practice my guitar and to write songs. For some reason, works great.
Speaker 1:I like it. And I see that old national behind you. Now people won't be able to see it, but it looks to me like an old Duolion from back in the day. What's the story behind that rascal?
Speaker 2:That is a Triolion and I was looking around for the most beat up but good sounding old National I could find, and this came across and I was able to secure it for a very reasonable price. And it is almost a hundred years old. It's from the twenties and it sits on the wall next to a mandolin that my mother found at a garage sale out. You know, sitting out in the sun is one of the earliest Gibsons ever made, in 1906 or 7. And next to that is Peter Green's Armstrong archtop guitar, which I was able to get at the auction that took place in London last year, nice. My latest, great, proudest possession is. I've had this Gretsch guitar for 40 years, but recently I got real friendly with our just recently departed friend Dwayne Eddy. Oh yes, and he was kind enough to sign it for me, and so it will always remain on display in the dining room.
Speaker 1:That is awesome indeed, you know. Speaking of guitars, I was going to ask him. We've never talked about that wild-shaped circle slash, half-circle pink guitar-ish thing that you play when you were in Fleetwood Mac. What is the story with that, Rascal?
Speaker 2:I designed that when I was out on tour with the bob seger doing that like a rock tour ah, this was 86. So, um, I designed it on paper. When I got home off the tour I made a full scale model of it paper again, you know, using sort of shapes that you know fender scale, neck and etc. And I had a luthier in uh in los angeles make it for me. And the idea was I wanted to find, I wanted to have a guitar that was very, very demonstrably art deco right from start to finish. And because you know national and and you know that company, they did some very interesting art Deco lap steels and a couple of guitars had appointments on them, sort of like a pick guard with a Deco shape or whatever. But I wanted something that was fully and totally Art Deco that nobody else had and that was it, and I've had it now since 1987.
Speaker 1:Awesome, and you use that quite well. What kind of pickups are on that beast?
Speaker 2:There is a cheap, no-name Japanese pickup in the neck which came on a Telecaster that I yanked it out of and I honestly don't know what's in the bridge now. I think it's a Demarcio, Okay. In the bridge now I think it's a DiMarzio, Okay, and the coils are split on both so I can get a you know the single coil sound and the full flitched high octane sound and a pan switch and then a volume and a tone.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Well, let's talk a little bit about that new record. I love it.
Speaker 1:Cadillac man, Thank you brother, I love the tunes. Singing is great, the playing, of course, is fabulous and I love how you know you'll take, just, you know, a lot of times they're just blues progressions but a few minor variations, but you always have like a great instrumental hook. It's either play with slide and your inimitable style, and I just I just find it a joy to listen to and it's and and this is no denigration on on uh, on other performers per se, but I have a hard time listening to, uh, new releases from quote unquote blues artists because, uh, a lot of times it just it's just so formulaic one way or another that within two tunes I'm done. But this it's, it's true to roots, but it also has a fresh feel to it and and it's, it's believable. You know what I mean. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 2:I know exactly what you mean, because I I do the same thing as you. I can. I can know within less than a minute whether I'm going to like a whole record. I'll just skip. You know, if that first song doesn't grab me, I'll skip to the second. If that doesn't grab me, I'll stick to the third and usually from there it's going downhill. So that's it, it goes in the trash and I don't listen to it because, yeah, it's the subtleties, Because, yeah, it's the subtleties. And I think I think, 40 years or 50 years of producing oneself, you start to you start to know when something is has something a little special to it or not, Right? And I took four years to to assemble 12 songs that I thought not only went together well, but each had had a character and and stood on its own merit and, you know, held up. So thank you very much for for pointing that out and you know you sort of are you're giving me the best feedback I could get.
Speaker 1:Well, my pleasure because I enjoy it. I was just listening to it yesterday, as a matter of fact, and I? Well, my pleasure because I enjoy it. I was just listening to it yesterday, as a matter of fact, and I love your slide play. I mean, slide is such an interesting thing, especially nowadays as it's become, and there's a lot of great young purveyors of slide who have been able to kind of stand on the shoulders of, who have been and take it to this next pinnacle of of technical excellence, and I don't want to downplay that in any straight shape or form, but I find that myself, anytime something gets too indoctrinated in a in more of a technical mastery versus what it really came from, which was a wire attached to a corrugated shack with a Coke bottle. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:And so.
Speaker 1:I find that there needs to be a certain vulnerability and rawness to it in order for me to find it again believable. And again, this is just my own dysfunction, but one of the things I love about your playing is that there is a technical mastery and and a uh and a going beyond coloring outside the box, but yet it's always got that connection to the original shit and that's what I love so much about it well, thank you.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I, you know it's. It's playing slide is like speaking another language to me. You know, and it's also a very vocal human and you know whatever animal sings. I think it has a kinship with that, because you're not going from fret to fret to fret, you're going above the fret, so you're sailing from one note to the next, which you can do to some extent with normal playing, which is great. But you know, if a singer like, just say, a scat singer or whatever, can you hear me okay?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Okay, a scat singer is singing a zillion notes, or a jazz singer. Well, you know, it's fine for a song and it's technically brilliant and stuff, but really what really soothes the soul are the. Are the, are the drawn out phrases? It's the purity of the sound, it's the expression, it's the emotion and that I feel like you know, after having played this for you know my whole adult life I feel like I'm probably have somewhat of a voice on the doing slide. So no doubt that's what. And again I thank you very much, greg. You hit all the nails on the head for me, thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, one of the things that I like quite a bit is, in addition to just, you know, vibrato and phrasing and all that kind of stuff. But there's just enough of that connection to the, to that vocally, um, sacred steel playing, but not too much. You know what I mean. It's kind of like there's a lot of people now who have really zoned in on that thing and it's like every phrase that they do is that and that's, and again, this is just my personal preference thing, but I like how you'll just throw those things in every now and again and they have maximum impact when you you do. And I'm curious as to at what point did that kind of phrasing enter into your playing? Was it prior to even hearing about or knowing about the sacred steel stuff and you've picked it up just intuitively? Or at what point did that enter your, your phraseology, as it were?
Speaker 2:it definitely came about before the before hearing Aubrey Gent, which was the first guy I heard Right.
Speaker 1:Exactly yeah.
Speaker 2:But I used to be friends with a singer named Ronnie Barron. He was with Paul Butterfield for a short while and he was from new Orleans and he was a very black sounding white singer, but what he did with his voice was he was a very black sounding white singer, but what he did with his voice was he was. He had that ability to to produce a melisma of notes in his phrasing and I always tried to copy that on on the guitar or on the slide, and to varying degrees of success. Because what you have to do to achieve that is, you don't go across the neck, you go up and down the neck.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and getting precise on your phrasing and your notes is a very, very difficult thing, very difficult. And so when I heard the Sacred Steel of Aubrey Jen, I noticed that, well, he's doing this in spades. You know he's really. Steel of Aubrey Jen. I noticed that, well, he's doing this in spades. You know he's really. He's got on the on the lap.
Speaker 2:So I did listen to him for a while, but then I realized, okay, and I started hearing these other guys and they all sounded like Aubrey Jen and they all did even this other sacred steel players, right, and I, then I his father and he sounded like his father. So I went okay, there's a danger here of too much into this. It's good to pick up a thing or two from these guys, just as it is great to pick up a thing or two from the like the Mohan Bhatt and Dibashish Bhattacharya Indian players who play the Venus and this type of instrument, who play the Venus and this type of instrument. So you know, I think it's good to get as many influences as you can and then put them all in a melting pot and see what you can come up with. That sounds unique and that's always the challenge, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It is indeed. You know. I found an older record of yours on YouTube that's not on iTunes and I'm spacing on the name of it, but it's probably from mid-90s and you do an instrumental tune that's your own, but it's very Freddie King-esque and it's all standard playing and it is so awesome because it's got to be your dumbbell on there, because it definitely sounds like that dumbbell-y tone. I could be wrong, but what's cool about?
Speaker 1:it again with your slide playing. With your playing on this, it's like there's nods to Freddie and there's some straight blues phrasing, but then you'll throw in a line that's a little Western swingy or just a just a little, you know, jazzy or phrasing, and then right back to the other side and it's just it was. It was spelled by me. I had to sit down and learn as much as I could of it.
Speaker 2:Thanks for that. You know, again, I got to find the name of that. I'm not a school player at all. I don't know how to read music and I was never.
Speaker 2:I never had a teacher. So my teachers are, you know, keith Richards and BB King and anybody else who I could grab a little or steal a little bit from the swing players who are influenced by Django and Les Paul and and those guys. I was able to cop a little bit of that stuff and sort of just you know, it was my plan. I just try to get the what. What does it sound like? What? What can I produce that sounds like that, without actually stealing note for note?
Speaker 1:That is right, exactly, the record's called pink and black, by the way oh, pink and black.
Speaker 2:What was on pink and black?
Speaker 1:uh, I'm gonna take a look here. I'm gonna pink and black, I'm gonna open up that thing here pardon me, listener as we do a little recon. Uh, uh, streamliner, I think it's called. Is that the one?
Speaker 2:No, maybe Streamliner. Yeah, streamliner, that's it. Yeah, that's a blazing Exactly. Yeah, that's it. My son, when he was in grade school, came home, he said daddy, I've got an idea for a blues song. And I said you're kidding. And he said da-da-da-da-da-da, da-da-da-da-da-da-da, so that's the start of the tune and then I added it, so we're co-writers on that my son and. I that's awesome.
Speaker 1:And he was on the band at the time. That's crazy, yeah, well. Well, when did you decide you know because I, in the last time we we spoke, we talked more about your you know when you moved out to la, kind of at the behest of you know the connection with delaney and bonnie and so on and so forth when did you realize that you know the, the blues thing was really your home and that that was where you were going to dwell? You add all these other elements to it, but it's definitely you know you're a blues guy, am I right?
Speaker 2:I am a blues guy. Yeah, I again tried to teach myself to play outside the box and turn this on or turn it off, you know so I did teach myself to play outside the box and turn this on or turn it off. And you know so, I did teach myself to play some country and a little bit wing, as you say, and of course the slide goes in a lot of those different areas. But and I would, you know, be doing a fair amount of session work that you had to play outside of the blues idiom. Sure, you had to play a little more pop or rock and roll and I was able to do that.
Speaker 2:But I think it's having that strong blues bass is what enabled me to sound more like myself and not like the other typical session players who were popular in LA at the time. Not that I rose to that level of A-list guys, but I did a fair amount of session work out there. But at the same time I was going on the road with John Mayall and had a band in LA called the Juke Rhythm Band and then the Rick Vito Band, et cetera, and we would always play the clubs and blues and R&B songs. Those kind of things were what we did Excellent Roots, rock and roll.
Speaker 1:You know, I got to tell you that when we were together down in Toledo a couple of weeks ago and you did that minor blues slide thing and I thought I just started messing around with the tuning I think it's the tuning you were doing, but I I basically I started an open E and then I tuned the E string or the G string back down to G natural and I took the A string from a B to a C sharp. Is that? Is that the tuning you're doing or is that something different? So it's kind of like an E minor sixth, that's it. That's an awesome tune. And then, of course, if you just sharp the G and then you got that E six tuning and it's just a wonderfully haunting with the minor one, it just is so awesome.
Speaker 1:There's that version online of you with Mick Fleetwood doing that old Petereter green song uh, the low mom yeah, I love that burns exactly. And boy, that just. Is that just something you intuitively, you know, uh sort of messing with, because it's kind of it sounded like a, uh, lap steel tuning or how did that kind of come about?
Speaker 2:I think it came about by accident one time trying to figure out Albert Collins tuning, and then I just applied it there. Another thing that's really interesting that you can do is on that G string is it the G or the B? On that G string is it the G or the B? You can create all of these different tunings by going up or down on your G string and you can double the B or you can double the G string, or then you can play dad gad, you can. You can play dad gad right when you can minor, or you can play you know this all kinds of just by messing with that G string. That's something that I talked about. I did one of those slide guitar tutorials with true fire. Oh yeah, there's all the tunings you could come up with by changing your G string. That's wild.
Speaker 1:Now are you? I mean, obviously, as you play those tunings you learn more and more areas that make sense, but it's kind of fun not knowing them all that well. Am I right that you're kind of just intuitively going about it instead of like mapping it out?
Speaker 2:in some kind of scientific way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2:And also, if you come up with something that sounds cool, you can write a tune.
Speaker 1:You can write your own tune around that right, so then totally something it sounds like you know what you're doing, right, exactly, just feeling your way along, which is the first thing I did when I was messing around with that tune. I came up with a little thing and I posted something. I go. This is what happens when you hang out with Rick Vito you come up.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, to a man with a vocabulary such as yours, my friend, that's high praise indeed.
Speaker 1:Oh, bless you. We sure had fun playing together. I hope we get to do that again, because I think that's just a glorious matchup. It's just a fun musical thing.
Speaker 2:Fun musical thing, and so much of it is the fact that you have just one of the greatest bands I can even think of. Your son, Dylan and Toby Marshall are not only two of the sweetest guys you'd ever want to meet, but they are just awesome, ridiculous players that can play anything well and just you know. All I did was send them a tape of some songs and they came back playing it, like they'd been playing it for months. You know, and here we are. We're able to get on stage and not even run through some of those songs, and we were playing them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was awesome to hear I'll tell you that I loved it.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll make sure to tell them that I'm sure they'll get a kick out of it. You joined in on that one tune. Can't Stop the Guitar from Playing the Blues. Yeah, yeah, it was the perfect song for you to sit in on. You know my little six-song set there, but yeah, I haven't heard any of that yet, but I'm really anxious to hear it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they do a good job there at the old Circle R Ranch they make it sound good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm sure they do. I can't wait.
Speaker 1:Let's talk a little bit about the Peter Green. Um, that was kind of uh after we had talked the first time, and of course now it's a couple years ago. Peter was still alive then, actually, but he didn't actually go to the show, right right.
Speaker 2:He didn't go to the show, which is uh Kind of what Nick expected. You know they had. They had the limousine waiting for him in the private booth to sit in and the guarantee that nobody would bug him, or you know all that. But in the end he was true to himself and he just said that he would have felt uncomfortable going to it Right.
Speaker 2:I did hear that he that he saw it on video afterwards going to it. I did hear that he saw it on a video afterwards. But they're very close. His family is very tight-lipped about that whole thing.
Speaker 1:Well, it was kind of weird because years ago I did a Fender thing at Abbey Road and Peter Green was there with his family and I was a huge fan, but I just couldn't engage.
Speaker 1:I just thought this is, you know, I didn't feel comfortable talking or it was kind of like they were in their own little world and I just didn't want to mess with it but certainly a huge fan of everything he did, and so I enjoyed that show immensely. But when I remember I watched it, I really found this is not just blowing smoke up, your patootie, but I really thought you were the guy that that held that thing together, because it's, you know, and those things, those types of things you know you'll have people who, uh, come on, that you know certainly were influenced by him and so on and so forth, but really didn't know his material like you knew it. So you were kind of the anchor that could you know, speak to how that stuff was done and also trying to keep those arrangements together. I really thought that, you know, if there was a most valuable player award not that it's a contest, but you should have got- Well, thank you, should have gone well.
Speaker 2:Thank you, um, that all the guys in the, in those who produced that show, kind of acknowledged that fact, and the reason that's true is because I had just spent 10 years with mccleetwood in the what we called the rickwood Blues Band, featuring Rick Vito Right.
Speaker 2:So, we were doing not only my songs that were in a similar style, but we were doing the original Peter Green era of Fleetwood Mac songs. So we were quite well versed in it and probably had played them hundreds and hundreds of times. So Mick and I had kind of gone our separate ways after that, and he was. He put the show together and I think they soon realized that although everybody that they assembled were great players and stuff, none of them were versed in Peter. And he called me on Christmas day, which would have been about six weeks before the show was to take place, and asked if I would be a part of it. And so we sort of talked through what we needed to talk through and a week later I was out on Maui rehearsing the band and then we went to London to rehearse for another week with some of the all-star players who all showed up, you know David Gilmour and Billy Gibbons and Pete Townsend, bill Wyman and all those guys, and so it finally came together in the end, right at the last minute.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did think it was funny, even though I love that tune Station man. But that was not a Peter Green song.
Speaker 2:No, but in all fairness, the concert was built a tribute to Peter Green and the early music.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there you go. Perfect, I love that song. I mean, did you ever play that one back in the day with the guys? Never, no, yeah it's an interesting tune.
Speaker 1:I really hadn't heard it up until maybe five years ago. I remember when I'd go out to Wildwood and one of the guys out there was a big early Fleetwood Mac fan, and of course I had heard all the Peter Green stuff fan, and of course I had heard all the Peter Green stuff and and and then at some point I realized that, um, uh, danny Kerwin actually played a lot of the parts that I really liked, um, and then I realized, oh well, he was on for a while after, and so then I then I got those records and I really liked those records, I liked his. His songwriting was also very melancholy and you know, had that he was prone to the dark arts, it seemed.
Speaker 2:You know, I think he was having a little bit of trouble.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but, and so I enjoyed. When I heard Station I was like man, that song is awesome. And then it was kind of like one of those unknown gems. So when Pete did it I was like cool. But you know, I just thought, well, that's not quite a, but again it's, it's, it's close enough as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 2:One of those songs that he, he sort of. He really liked it when it came out and he subconsciously wrote a who song based on it. And I think the reason he wanted to come was to acknowledge to the world that, yes, I did, as a matter of fact, based on it. And I think the reason he wanted to come was to acknowledge to the world that, yes, I did as a matter of fact, I was influenced by this song more than I actually realized at the time.
Speaker 1:Interesting Now, danny Kerwin was already passed away by then, too, that you did the benefit. He was another one, that was, you couldn't find him and he didn't want anything to do with his past, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he became. He lived on the street, I understand, and in shelters and didn't want any help from Mick or anything. He just didn't. And I met his sister after the show and she was just thrilled that he was mentioned and we did a couple of songs that he had done and, yeah, I agree, he really. You know, like on the song oh Well, right, the lead is actually played by Danny. Danny, exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, and the lead's in the raucous part, peter's pretty much playing the figure line and then the rhythm, but it's, but it's danny he's playing, uh, and that, that amazing vibrato, very unique yes, very unique vibrato he had and I don't know many people that, um, although I thought johnny came, came fairly close on on a couple songs that he did.
Speaker 1:But anyway, he was very unique player and and, yeah, it's, it's, uh, it was nice that he was represented yeah, I think jigsaw puzzle blues was the one that I always, you know, just figured it was peter, but then when I dug in it was like no, no, that was Danny. On that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And there was this of Danny sort of lifting that whole melody from Eddie Lang and Joe Venuti. Exactly, exactly, really wasn't his song, but he put his stamp on it and yeah, it was a great, great version.
Speaker 1:Now I remember you telling a story where you saw the original Fleetwood Mac in Philadelphia at a club right.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, oh man, I was so thankful for that. Saw him two nights in a row, that's right. And it was literally about three days before they went to Chicago to record Blues Jam, chicago, right, with all the blues greats, you know. So they were playing all those songs and um, so the first night I saw him I was just absolutely, you know, it was like a sponge. I loved it so much I I just suck it in it was.
Speaker 2:It tickled every musical bone of my, of my entire body and brain, and I was just blown away by, first of all, peter, uh, because he's who I knew about, right, but he was so much better than what I'd heard on record, so much better as a singer, so much better as a player, as a dynamic uh interpreter, as a band leader and as a songwriter.
Speaker 2:And and then the rhythm section of fleetwood and mcvee kerwan was was it was the first I knew about him, right. And uh, and of course, um, jeremy spencer doing the omar j. And to hear them they came out and both Kerwan and Peter turned their E string down to D and they came out playing the Elmore James song in the key of D with Jeremy, and so their rhythm was played real low together. It was massive, just so impressive. It just got more impressive as the set went on and I hadn't seen anything as impressive since I saw Hendrix in the same club about a year before. So, as out there and genius as Hendrix was, peter did the same thing, but with restraint and taste and tone Right and songwriting.
Speaker 1:We interrupt this regularly scheduled gristle-infested conversation to give a special shout-out to our friends at Fishman Transducers, makers of the Greg Koch Signature Fluence Gristle Tone Pickup Set Can you dig that? And our friends at Wildwood Guitars of Louisville, colorado, bringing the heat in the shadow of the Rocky Mountains. Let me ask you something that you know I'm not into and I'm sure you're not either the whole. You know this guy was better and this guy was better and you know it's just. I think I mean I understand where people are coming from in that regard, always needing to have a superlative, and certainly there are times when you go see something like you're just describing where it had such a visceral effect on you that it stands out.
Speaker 1:But you know, when you hear people you know talk about the likes of Clapton and Peter Green and saying well, peter was the real guy and I just want to go listen, they were both great, what's wrong with saying they were both great? But you know, especially when you figure that you know Clapton was the you know the first guy to take a Les Paul and plug it into a Marshall and get that sound, and you know, as we were talking about earlier, someone who was cognizant of the fact of yeah, you're influenced by all these different folks, but you come up with your own take on it and it's unique.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can hear the Freddie King and the BB King when you're hearing Clapton but he had his own thing and his own vibrato and so on and so forth, and you got Peter, who was a great vocalist and obviously a brilliant guitar player, but arguably, you know, when he plays straight blues, I mean, it's pretty much BB King on the nose, you know what I mean. And there are some other things that he adds to it, but his songwriting and the whole package was unique, and so they both have their own different things. But this, this madness about you know well, Peter was the real guy and Clapton was just like some kind of charlatan always just kind of hits me in the wrong place.
Speaker 2:No, no, you're absolutely right. You know, and really, as as a player, um, you know, no one's a hundred percent original, there's no one.
Speaker 1:No doubt, absolutely.
Speaker 2:You know he listened to certain things that he took some of his style from, but you know, I think, where the genius is is. You could definitely say that Clapton was the best at being Clapton.
Speaker 2:Yeah totally His experience, his melding together the different style, and Peter was the best at being Peter, exactly, and Beasley was the best at being it's just, you know, know, even Stevie Ray Vaughan. I didn't get it first. I really didn't get it because at first all I heard was the three guys whom, in my estimation, he was sounding like, which was Albert King, right Hendrix, bonnie Mac, and I just well, he just put he's putting us together. And then when I saw him live, I saw how he fused that all together and put his own energy in it right, and he was the best at being steve raymond.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly correct, that's the best way of putting it, but I just I get so. You know, every time you open up social media it's another top 10 list or who's underrated and who's done. It's like just listen to the music or, better yet, practice and play music.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Get something of your own going. That's like the slightest bit original. See and see if you can even do that.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly, correct, but, uh, I still like listening to all that old stuff. You know, I, I, you know, a lot of times I'm going to bed at night I'll just find an old bootleg, you know, cause YouTube, of course, is, you know, just a playground for that kind of stuff. Now, where you find all these old bootlegs and listen, you're you always hear something new, cause that, as as you said, when you see someone live, uh, there are things going on. There might've been things happening in a club in Philadelphia that never happened again, you know. Or they played in Toledo someplace, and that night was particularly off the hook and it would have been lost to history forever, except that now people had a reel to reel, you know, recording of it, that they did bootleg and I've put it on YouTube and now you can hear that stuff. So there's like this whole treasure trove of heretofore unknown things that are just awesome to listen to.
Speaker 2:That is true, and and and it is true that probably some of the best music that you and I have ever made uh, was done in a in a club somewhere, a small audience, and you were just on that night and nobody had a tape recorder going was done in a club somewhere, a small audience, and you were just on that night, nobody had a tape recorder going. So it's just, it's no one will ever know that or hear it, so it isn't really interesting. When someone does happen to capture that, yeah, it's an interesting phenomenon.
Speaker 1:Indeed. So what kind of stuff do you like to listen to these days? Are you still a fan of music to the point where you like to listen to it a lot, or do you find that you're just mostly playing and doing your own thing at this point? Or is it kind of going phases?
Speaker 2:It goes in phases. I think you know I don't think I'll ever get tired of going back and listening to. You know I don't think I'll ever get tired of going back and listening to. You know somebody who's really brilliant, who's been an influence on me. You know like, for instance, last week I was looking for something in my car and I for, I guess a couple of years ago I put Rolling Stones CD called Aftermath. Oh yeah, came out when I was in high school and I put it on and I was just blown away, just partly because it was nostalgic and it touched me and it was. You know they were doing some things on there that hadn't been done here before, but some great songs.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you know, otis Rush comes to mind, you know, to hear what he did with his voice and the vibrato in his playing.
Speaker 1:That's so great.
Speaker 2:For Chuck Berry. He's a great example. I've always gone back to Chuck because I always hear something more in his playing, or his tone, or you know. What he did on the steel was incredible. Did you get to that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:I mean just ridiculously great and cool. And it just always cracks me up when I see these people playing what they think is Chuck very terribly, and it's just, you know, they don't get the rhythm right, they don't get the sound or they don't play the notes right. And the guy was brilliant, really genius.
Speaker 1:No, doubt no doubt about it.
Speaker 2:I like to go back. I don't listen much to. I don't listen much to current players. I'll. I'll that Partly because if they're too good, I won't like them, and if they're too bad, I won't like them either.
Speaker 1:You know, what I listened to the other day was a record that I just loved and when I first started playing guitar I learned so much from was the Stones'. Get your Ya-Ya's Out. They're the live thing. The first thing with, really the first. Well, I guess Let it Bleed would have been the first thing with Mick Taylor, but I think I remember telling you the last time we got together, the first slide thing I ever learned was Mick Taylor's solo on Love in Vain on that record. But now they've kind of got that whole concert because they toured with BB King and with Ike and Tina Turner on that tour and they've got the open set.
Speaker 1:Did you see that tour? Yeah, oh man, I'll tell you what. Because BB still had that. You know that blues is king tone and kind of approach, kind of live at the Regalal, blues is king. He was still in that zone and was. His playing was awesome and that recording is great. And then, of course, ike and tina turner were just off the chain and her voice back then was even more, I mean, just rock and roll incarnate. I'm just trying to imagine his kid going to that concert saying, oh, I'm here to see the stones, and then seeing the two opening action going. What just happened?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean the energy that the that she and I gets put out is just just ridiculous. And BB BB was so impressive because he um, I saw him a couple times live where he really did stretch out a bit, yes, and like if the song had a diminished chord change, yeah, he would. He nailed that, he was schooled in that, so he knew how to get a lot out of those changes and stretched out a little bit and I would go, yeah, I can't play that, he just did something I can't do. And wow, he held, he, he just kept that in his hip pocket, you know absolutely, I had a similar experience.
Speaker 1:I I saw. I can't remember how many times I saw bb king. Every time he was in town I saw him. We saw him on one particular occasion and you could tell he had a cold or something, so his voice wasn't 100%, so he played more and it was just like you were talking about. It's like he outcame all the Charlie Christian jangoisms. It was like what? As you said, he just had it in his hip pocket the whole time, just ready yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:It makes you wonder why he didn't do more of that. Um, but you know I'm not going to second second guess, the great bb king. But right you, you have to listen and go through a lot of records before you can find those little bits you know, yeah, but when they happen they are awesome, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're right. I don't know if we talked about this last time, but I remember I've spoken about this with a lot of folks. I don't think that there's, you know, most of the licks of the original rock and roll blues generation of white guys from the 60s, whether it be certainly Clapton, peter Green, bloomfield, johnny Winter, etc. Bb King played all of those things and a lot of people just think he stayed in that box and did his usual and then hit the octave thing and then occasionally would throw in a couple of bebop licks. But when you listen to the wide range of his material, you realize that a lot of the just you know regular position blues runs and B string bends and little you know twirly bits that we might affiliate with somebody else, he actually did all that shit and that all of it really came from bb yeah, true, and not only with the white players.
Speaker 2:But if you listen to the buddy guy and otis rush, oh yeah, you know, freddie, I mean that you can tell right, all listen to him, they all got it from him. And you know, of course bb got a little bit from both Fulton and a little bit from T-Bone Walker too, right, because of course Charlie Christian and Django, and he told you in interviews he said this is where I got my style. But they all you know, because BB was the king of the blues, the modern blues, I think all the younger players, black and white, second generation or one and a half generation, they certainly took a lot of the thing from BB King for sure. That's what makes him truly great.
Speaker 1:Right. And then you got Albert King, who was like an alien, because I've tried to figure out. Where did he learn that? It's just like he just decided one day. I'm going to this.
Speaker 2:And that's really. This is some of his early recordings. He wasn't very good at it yet, right. And then all of a sudden, I think the light bulb went off. Hey, I'm left handed. It's OK if I do it this way, right, and I can do something. That's more, just not a lot of notes, but sure. And he did the same thing over and over and developed his vocabulary and mastered it. And boy, I'm with you there.
Speaker 1:He's the guy and you never get tired of listening to it. It's like you know what's going to happen, but it's always a little different every time. You're just like, yeah, I could listen to that all day, every day.
Speaker 2:And you know what's so cool about those three King guys? They all could really sing, that's true, oh my gosh. And the Three O'Clock Blues by BB King. Listen to the gospel phrasing and talk about melisma in notes and stuff. There you go. Yeah, I have a gospel, a really poor quality gospel record that he made where he's mostly singing, and his gospel singing is just off the charts. And Freddie King same way. Man, just ridiculous.
Speaker 1:Just an explosion. What he would say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just amazing.
Speaker 1:You know, the other day I was just sitting in my hotel room in Colorado after a day of shooting videos and man, it's just fun putting on that instrumental Freddie King shit and just playing along. It just does that ever get old.
Speaker 2:Right. And has anybody ever gotten that exact tone no Like from the original Les Paul that he played on all those early records?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That tone is and it's almost it's like it came from outer space. It's so difficult to dial that up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I think a lot of it too is that his finger picks had so much to do with the sound. That metal against those strings just gave it that weird quality to it, but awesome quality.
Speaker 2:I thought that the early records where he played the Les Paul really had the sound, as opposed to the 335 thing that he went to later.
Speaker 1:Right, I would agree, guitar nerd talking, guitar nerds talking just kind of speaks to that fact that you know so many people are obsessed with, especially now with the advent of and again I don't want to sound like you know, get off of my lawn kid, but you know cause I'm very active on social media. It's it's, it's something that is part of how I make my living and and I enjoy. I mean, usually I just get up in the morning and kind of play something off the top of my head and more times than not it's the very first thing I played and I post it and I leave because it's just kind of my little. You know, hey, how are you thing to the people that like to follow what I do and so on and so forth, and it's just an honest thing. But so much of what happens online with the people that have like millions of followers is that everyone's. And just for my own thing, if I post something that I think is just tasty, it'll be moderately appreciated. But if I do something that's flashier, then people are oh, you know what I mean, not all the time.
Speaker 1:You know a lot of people. You know there might be something tone-wise if I play something that's slower and more taste-oriented, that might get a lot of legs to it, but for the most part, more taste oriented that, that might get a lot of legs to it, but for for the most part, it's like people are fascinated by, by technique, and and I think it's probably always been that way to an extent, but I think really with the advent of the internet now, uh, it's become an obsession, uh, as as like, well, who is the greatest Meaning? And when they say that, it's like who is the most technical player of all time? And to me of course that's a pointless conversation, because you have people who are really good at this thing over here, but take them out of that and put them in this pool and they won't know what to do, and vice versa. And then there's people that kind of can dip their toe in all the different things but not to the level of other people and that doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:It's like, whatever you're doing for how you view your artistry, let the good times roll. But I always go back to the argument of what do I want to listen to? And nine times out of 10, the stuff I want to listen to is not very technically advanced from a technical point of view as far as notes, quantity of notes or even sophistication of harmony. That's not to say that I don't enjoy things that are more sophisticated, but I tend to lead towards, like we'd mentioned, albert King. It's like if I had my choice of you know, who do I appreciate more, yngwie Malmsteen or Albert King? I'm going to say Albert King without even thinking about it, and there's no way that Albert King could have played anywhere near what Yngwie Malmsteen could play, or vice versa. But there just seems to be this technical obsession. But really, the stuff I just bear it down to, what would I rather listen to? And the bottom line is it's more soulful, fucking tasty shit. And I don't think I'm the only one.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, you said about everything that I could say with regards to that. I I often hear players either tele telecaster country Nashville style pickers, right, or heavy metal shredders or blues shredders and all that stuff, and I'm trying to think what is going on in this person's mind that he has to express himself that way. And if I was sitting down to talk to the person who just was a motor mouth and just kept rambling on and on and on and on and on and on, I'd want to get up and leave Right, right away. So I'm with you there. But at the same time, you're right, there's a market for that and I think a lot of people are impressed by speed and technicality over, say, the Peter Green or BB King or Albert King approach. I think the numbers are greater for that, but it could be a youth thing, I'm not sure I call it comic book music.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, the one thing I've realized is that, you know, ever since I was a kid, you know, and the reason why this is came into my mind recently is I'm putting out a compilation record and someone said well, you know, you've got 20 some records. Why don't you narrow it down to 10, 10 tunes? And you know, of my 20 some records, the stuff is all over the map, man. I mean there's, you know, I'm into a lot of different things. I mean there's a blues element that runs through all of it, but sometimes I'll go more over into a crazier kind of, you know, jazzy twist to it. Or sometimes it's more rock, or there's that chicken picking aspect to it. It's got all these different flavors to it. But typically, you know, when I'm at the merch table at the end of the gig, you know, it's not unusual for someone to come up and say, well, what is the bluesiest record? You have right. So I thought, well, why don't I do a blues compilation, pick tunes from my many records and just pick out tunes that are bluesy? And then I thought, well, as much as I can get to an actual three-chord blues as possible, those are the tunes I'm going to put on the thing and I started listening to some of the older stuff and there's a version of.
Speaker 1:I always would do a version of Hendrix's Red House, Because, even though it's a song that's been done into the ground, I always felt that I had something different to say with it and because I was such a Hendrix fanatic, I could kind of weave into giving Jimmy homage, but not doing that thing we were talking about earlier, where it's like you're doing the exact same thing, Um, and and I remember back in the day a lot of the blues guys in the area would be like, oh, you play too many notes, and I'd be like Jesus really, I mean. And then I'd listen back to this. I'm like it is so restrained in comparison to what passes for blues. Now, you know what I mean it's like and so I think it's a. There's a generational thing where it's like. You know there was some people like, well, you play anything more than a certain amount of notes, then you're too many notes. But I would say, well, what's too many notes nowadays is really too many.
Speaker 2:This was a conversation that I wanted to have with you when I saw you in Toledo, because I have three players in mind that I wanted to ask you and we won't do it now because this is personal, but I wanted to have your take on. There's a few players who who are popular now that I don't particularly get, but you know I'd love to have your take and that's that's a subject, subject for another conversation. But uh, yeah, I mean, you know I I think one of the things that you do very well is is you you're able to take your vast knowledge of the guitar and you you do have a incredible knowledge and you go, you're capable of going a lot of different directions, but you have been able to um with the particular songs that you write, channel that into a great listening experience, and I don't think you go too far out there, like some of the players.
Speaker 1:Oh well, thank you, I appreciate that Sure.
Speaker 2:That's the truth.
Speaker 1:Because you know I like to. As I said, you know I listen to stuff. I want it to be something I want to listen to, and I find myself, if I listen to back recordings of me, like a live recording and I go off on something I'm like, well, I don't want to hear that as much. So I'm always kind of in the point where you're always self-editing but I think we all do that, am I right? You listen back and-edit, always self-editing and trying to figure out what we should keep in and what we should take out.
Speaker 2:Right, I mean that takes place in all art really. I mean writing, creative writing, art. Yeah, that's why there are editors, right, because it's very often that very very thing that makes, uh, good work great right, exactly.
Speaker 1:Well. What do you have planned for the foreseeable future here? What's coming up?
Speaker 2:you're just kind of taking it easy for a little bit I'm not well and if you're talking about I'm not really going to travel over the next few months, and there's various reasons for that. But I am concentrating on I have a backlog of material and so you know, my record's been out about two and a half months now. So you know the life of these, these things. You never know after the three month period whether it's going to be continue to be listened to or whether it's going to start, you know, diminishing. So one has to think about okay, what am I going to do next?
Speaker 2:Not easy if you have something that and I was so fortunate with this record that really just great reviews, great reviews. So I have to take into consideration that, ok, what did I do that deserved to get great reviews? And can I do that again? Right, right, you know, with the same record again. So I do have a backlog of material and right now I just I reset up my studio in my house because we had a lot of storms here recently and my studio took on water and so we pulled everything out of there and I have to do some major redesigning of the studio before I can go back in there again, but I'm able to work in the house. So that's what I plan to be doing over the next couple of months.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:Reporting new stuff and and looking at what I've got in the can Editing, editing, editing.
Speaker 1:I look forward to hearing it dog on it and I also. If you ever wanted to do another gig even if we were down in Nashville and did something down there we'd love to do it, because that was just so fun.
Speaker 2:Count me in. Count me in.
Speaker 1:That'd be good. Clean, that would be good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Before we go talk to us.
Speaker 1:Talk to us a little bit about what's going on with your new Reverend guitar. You got a new one, right, I do.
Speaker 2:It is the, what they call, or what we've decided on, the soul agent. And this one here is I have this is my fourth guitar with them and the others were sort of leaning more into my artistic Art Deco influences and so, and then Joe Neller would add his reverend thing and his you know, sonic thing. So this time they asked me what I wanted to do and I said, well, I'd like to do something that is a little more traditionally reverend and still retain some of my ideas and still retain some of my ideas. And so we came up with the P90 in the neck humbucker and the bridge combo, the double agent kind of format. And then we have the black and white check binding which is hold over from this soul shaker, the last version, and went back to a toggle switch and kept the vigs v and uh. We've got push, pull knobs on this one which give you the single coil sound with still being in humbucking mode and out of phase sound gotta have that out of phase sound.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love the out of phase thing. It's, it's.
Speaker 2:I know you do. You've got that on your model. Yeah, it sounds great. It makes the guitar real versatile. So yeah, so far they're doing pretty good and I think yours are doing very well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're doing pretty good. We've got a new one coming soon. As soon as there's enough in stock, they're going to announce it, which I think will be later on this this year. I just I've got a couple here and I can't wait to start, but ken's like, don't play them, because if you play them people are going to be bugging us. I'm like yeah, but I just want to play it I've seen it.
Speaker 2:I won't let the cat out of the bag. I've seen it and I and I know about it. Yes, I haven't played one yet or heard one yet, but as soon as they become available, I've already asked Ken to send me one.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Well, let me know what you think when you get it. Oh yeah, yeah, I'm looking forward to getting it out there.
Speaker 2:I have a model in mind for a possible future Reverend too, that I don't think has been done yet, which we'll see. We'll see what happens, but I think that, you know, having the artist's input is really a very good thing. They come up with something that's unique, like yours. Your ideas are then.
Speaker 1:Well, I tell you what I really enjoyed your soul, shakeraker, and I had the darker one.
Speaker 2:That Mick Fleetwood actually owns now.
Speaker 1:Yeah that Mick Fleetwood buys. It's like I didn't want to sell it, but when you said Mick Fleetwood wanted it, I was like I almost felt compelled to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's okay, he loves it. You know he has it on display Awesome, that's okay, he loves it. You know he has it on display Awesome, it's very cool, awesome.
Speaker 1:That's pretty wild. Yeah, it was pretty wild when they were good guitars.
Speaker 2:They were really good guitars. I love the Soul Shaker.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's cool.
Speaker 2:Very Les Paul-like.
Speaker 1:Les Paul-esque Exactly. Well, you know what, and it was a very, it was very, like all the Reverend guitars. I mean there are a lot of bang for the buck, if we're honest. I mean it's you know, to get a guitar as you made me think of it with the Les Paul thing, because I mean really good Les Pauls these days, man, that's a lot of money.
Speaker 2:And to get a guitar like the Soul Shaker with everything it brought to the table, for, uh, for less than two thousand dollars is pretty amazing yeah, I think that's that's one of the strong points of reverend guitars is they're able to make quality instruments that give you, you know, the best of all those worlds, all the sonic worlds, and keep the price down to what you know, the average player or collector can easily get together.
Speaker 1:Plus, it's a family vibe with that company. Having done the, I did the Fender thing for so many years and I don't regret it. It was a great experience. I was never an official employee of offender but it was a big part of my income for a good you know 15 years where I would go all over the place kind of flying their flag and doing clinics and whatnot.
Speaker 1:But you know, when you, those corporations are not companies you can grow old with, let's put it that way it's. It's one of those things where as soon as there's a, as soon as there's a change in the guard, next thing you know it's like, okay, who's the youngest and best that we can get in here to champion the brand, where it's like, well, you know you can find the new young person, but also pay homage and keep the people around that are still valid, that are doing stuff for you and you know and that's not to say that they don't per se, but it's like with my affiliation with Fishman, it's like when you're dealing with the people that own the company on a regular basis and it's more of a family thing. It's just a better vibe overall. As far as the-. Yeah, it's a pleasant experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, I mean they mean what they say. It's a family thing. It's more about music than that. I mean it's with with every business that comes down to, to money, of course. But uh, as I like to say, it's not all about the money, but it is a little bit, but there's.
Speaker 1:There's more of a you know doing the right thing and treating people right, as opposed to more of that corporate kind of bottom line thing which would not you agree right, it would, yeah, absolutely and that's good by god, because there's already there's enough of that corporate skullduggery going on everywhere. But um hey, what are you going to do? It's the nature of the?
Speaker 2:how much are you? Are you? Are you guys continuing to hit that mighty highway and that magnificent uh gristle?
Speaker 1:yes, well, we are going to go out again July 11th, I believe we go out and we're doing it's kind of a action-packed two and a half week West Coast run. So we're going to start here and then go St Louis, kansas City, denver, albuquerque, phoenix, LA, san Diego, and then we go up to the Kansas City, denver, albuquerque, phoenix, la, san Diego, and then we go up to the Bay Area, do Santa Cruz, berkeley, and then we go up to Portland and then Seattle and then go home.
Speaker 1:so it's a lot of driving but it's a lot of fun yeah, exactly, we stay with this really nice couple and we have this beautiful house in Venice Beach. Yeah, exactly, we stay with this really nice couple in. They have this beautiful house in Venice beach and so every time we're in Southern California we stay there for several days and we usually do like a house concert for them on their roof, and all their neighbors come over and and we're, you know, a few blocks away from the beach. So we stay. It's just an awesome experience. Tom and Mandy, if you're listening, thank you. We always, we always have a good time.
Speaker 1:So we're going to stay with them for a couple of couple of three, four days, and so that'll be a nice little thing. That breaks it up so that the end is kind of helter, skelter, where we got to kind of make some long drives. But you know, I don't mind it, I don't mind the driving, you know, and it's just Dylan and I and Toby, so there's no drama. You know we enjoy working. So you know, when we get there, you know we're hauling our own gear, we're setting up our own merge, we're taking care of business, but the reward is is like, you know, people are only coming there to hear us play our music. They're not there like, oh look, there's a band here and you know it's some kind of a sports bar or something. They're coming there specifically to see us, do hear us do our thing.
Speaker 1:Shows are usually early, you know. We start at eight. We'll do, like you know, a two hour set all in and then I'll sell the merch, hang out with a bunch of the folks and then we pack up and off to the next destination. So it's. It keeps us on our toes and it's a lot of fun, and we end up making dough, which everyone's like. I always enjoy hearing the comments. Greg's wife must have a really good day job. Like, hey pal, I'm doing just fine. Not that there would be anything wrong with that other scenario, but we have managed to do it in such a way where you know we're making money, which is good which is good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know, nobody thinks about the 20 years of you know experience that went into developing that work plan, getting it to where you have it now, so that it's a science Exactly. You've worked it out for you and you've made it work. So not everybody can do that, that's for sure. There's certain elements that restrict me from wanting to do it that you have figured out. You have a great man, you've got a great vehicle, you've got, you know, there's a lot of elements that have to come together to make it make sense.
Speaker 1:And if those aren't there, then it can very easily not make sense for you to do that exactly, I think, when it, when it first dawned on us because I was always of the mind that it was it was not viable financially. I mean, everyone I talked is like listen, most and most of the gigs that you know got us in the door to most of the kind of really cool clubs. They're all door deals. So if you're, you're going out with no guaranteed income and uh and that's of course someone who's been doing it for a long time You're like I'm not leaving the house for not a guaranteed income. But my, my um agent at the time was like listen, we can get you some guarantees. He goes, but the guarantees are going to be low and then the backend money is going to be the deal's going to be shit. So all you'll make is that guarantee, whereas if you go in and you take a little bit of risk and you get all the back end, then you could make some serious dough and that has worked.
Speaker 1:And so the first time we went out, I remember I just had my Honda Odyssey and we took out one of the seats. So we had three seats in the Honda minivan and back then Toby would just take his digital B3, but with the actual 145, leslie. But we would pack. I packed two Vibraluxes, dylan's little drum kit, toby's rig, all of our luggage and merch into a Honda Odyssey and we drove around and that first tour that we did was right before COVID. And when we got back from that tour I realized, holy shit, we made money. I mean, this actually works. So then I figured it was possible. But then of course COVID happened and no one did anything for for years.
Speaker 1:And then after that we you know Toby had his, um, his Tahoe, that he got uh with a trailer, and then we had the vehicle thing sussed out. And then because of that we took, we just said yes to everything and we started going out and we realized, holy shit, we're able to make dough, uh. But then of course we got too many miles on Toby's vehicle and we had to figure out the next vehicle situation. And that was, that was a conundrum. You know, do I get another vehicle like a Tahoe and then get a trailer? And then there's that whole thing of trailers are a hassle and yada, yada, yada.
Speaker 1:And then I worked out getting this, that, that Ford Transit, and that was not without its drama. But yeah, to your point, there's a lot of moving parts that have to work and then, of course, just having the band that's ready to go at a drop of a hat. You know I've got, you know, my son and I got Toby, who have a situation where, uh, it's just known that I just say yes to everything and they'll just make room for it, and that's that in and of itself is almost is a, is a walking miracle.
Speaker 1:Exactly correct. So, yes, I'm very, very fortunate that all of those things are the case. And then, of course, the other thing is that we've got a lot of merch too, and the merch, the kind of merch that we have, and the people's desire to buy it, or can really make a mediocre night a good night. So all of those moving parts together make it work. So, yes, it's, it's, uh, it is, it's definitely a science.
Speaker 2:It's the only science apparently I understand well, I congratulate on your when you figuring out the uh, you know that equation and and making it work for you.
Speaker 1:Well, we're having a good time. So we're going to on doing it and hopefully this new relationship we've got going with I'm doing this thing with Devin Allman and Devin's got this his label and had some really good experiences with him and that whole Allman Betts, you know organization has been very, very helpful and awesome. So I think with that affiliation, you know just, and again I I just want to wrap things up just a little bit you know I don't have any delusions of grandeur because I understand the bigger you get, the more people you have to hire, the more overhead you have, the more risks you got to take. And if we're pulling it off now, it just ratchet it up just 15% and I'm good. I hear you.
Speaker 2:I hear you yeah, a lot of people don't understand that that you know that bird in the hand is, uh is very valuable and you know a lot of times you go outside the box there, you enter into a whole nother world of problems and maybe, maybe you were happier back the way it was originally.
Speaker 1:Well, my wife said something interesting today. We were over having coffee this morning and she goes hey, did you hear the Black Keys canceled their tour. I was like what she goes? Yeah, apparently ticket sales were too low and I'm like, holy shit, can you imagine that A band that's that well-known? But of course all it takes is, well, let's try for the next bigger room and book all the bigger rooms and then not selling it then having to cancel the tour. I'd rather just, hey, let's book an okay sized room that we know will fill. What's wrong with that?
Speaker 2:that's right. That's right. You and you know you've got your hand on every, on all the aspects of you know you, you're, you've pretty much got it under your control and not somebody else's.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly, which is key, Because the more people you have involved, the more the expectations are, and then the less you lose control and then you're just yeah, but we know.
Speaker 2:We know the story.
Speaker 1:Well, listen, my friend so great talking with you. Thanks for taking some time to wrap today. It was glorious as always, my pleasure Always, and let's try to work on something where we get together again sooner than later.
Speaker 2:All right. Anytime you're down in this area, count me in if you're up for it. All right Sounds good, my friend.
Speaker 1:Well, you take care of yourself.
Speaker 2:We'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 1:You got it.
Speaker 2:Have a good one, rick, you too. Bye-bye, bye.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, folks, for tuning in. Special thank you to Wildwood Guitars of Louisville, colorado, and the mighty Fishman Transducers for making this podcast possible. If you enjoyed yourself, ladies and gentlemen, please subscribe and review so that people can get the word out that this is worth experiencing. Can you dig it? Thanks again. We'll see you soon or you'll hear me soon.
