Curious Neuron

A parent's guide to understanding their child's emotional development with Dr. Amanda Sheffield Morris

December 11, 2023 • Cindy Hovington, Ph.D. • Season 5 • Episode 37

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Ever wondered why your toddler's tantrums seem uncontrollable or why your teenager is always sulking? Is it a sign of underlying distress, or a normal part of growing up? These questions and more are answered in this episode where we welcome developmental psychologist, Dr. Amanda Sheffield Morris. She helps us unlock the mysteries of emotional regulation in children, emphasizing the crucial role it plays in their overall health and well-being. We also delve into the intricacies of the parent-child relationship, discussing how it changes as your child progresses through different stages of life. And to top it all off, Dr. Morris shares some practical nuggets from her new book, "Raising a Resilient Child."

But it's not just about the kids. Parents, we're in this too! Our inner world affects our outer reactions, especially when it comes to managing our child's emotions. How we regulate our own emotions can significantly impact our children's emotional development. We're not perfect – and we're not expected to be – but understanding our emotional triggers can help us respond more effectively to our children's needs. In this episode, we also navigate the tumultuous waters of emotions like anger, sadness, worry, and anxiety. We provide tips on how parents can set routines and rituals that support emotional regulation and offer insights into the importance of patience and understanding, especially during the early stages of your child's life.

Towards the end of our discussion, we dive deeper into the world of emotional well-being in parenting. Dr. Morris introduces the concept of "shark music" – the scripts and patterns we have in our minds when it comes to parenting – and how this affects our interactions with our children.

Amanda's Book is out now! Raising a Resilient Child in a World of Adversity: Effective Parenting for Every Family
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Parents’ adverse childhood experiences and current relationships with th

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Speaker 1:

So we really see the ability to regulate emotions and manage emotions as a precursor to later adjustment in health in children.

Speaker 2:

Hello, my dear friend, welcome back to another episode of the curious neuron podcast. My name is Cindy Huffington and I am your host. Today we are speaking with a researcher that I found a little while back now and just fell in love with her research. It is everything we need to know as parents when it comes to our emotions and our child. She's going to cover the styles of responding to her child's emotions, and you don't want to miss it. But first I'd like to thank the Tannenbaum Open Science Institute here at the Neuro in Montreal for supporting the curious neuron podcast. Without them, this podcast would not be possible without you. So please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast and rate it or review it, either on Apple or on Spotify. Send me an email to let me know if you did it at info at curiousneuroncom and I will send you a free PDF from curious neuron academy which helps your child regulate their emotions. If you're not following us yet on social media, you can at curious underscore neuron on Instagram. We are also on Facebook and you can visit our website at curiousneuroncom. If you'd like to read some articles, visit our academy or search for an old podcast episode, and if you're looking for some support in terms of your parenting or your child's emotions or your emotions. Please visit the show notes of this podcast. You will see links to my app called Wonder Grade, which helps kids learn how to regulate their emotions while also supporting the parent regulate their emotions. I am also an affiliate for better help. Better help is online care for you, online therapy, so you don't have to leave, and I'm telling you, it is warming my heart to get these emails from parents who have joined Better Help and are finally seeing a difference in their child's behavior because they have done something for their own emotions and are supporting their mental health and it is impacting their child. You will also find a link to the app called Puck Puck. It was the first app that I ever downloaded on my phone and my iPad for my kids. It is open-ended, it is easy to play, the sounds are not annoying, so you don't want to miss that. It is in the show notes as well, and a new partner of curiousneuron is Holsty. I have had the pleasure of testing out their greater good tool kit, which are science-based practices for a meaningful life, and they even have these reflection cards. So if you're somebody that wants to start the work, but you don't know how Holsty has these cards. They have an app now. They have an online membership that you could join to help you with your well-being and your health and your happiness, and all of that. So the link to Holsty is also in my show notes. All right, I don't want to make you wait anymore. This episode is so good. Like I said, I've been waiting so long to speak to this researcher and was so excited that she was opened to having this conversation. Her work is important and she has a book that is out as well that I didn't know. I reached out to her, so I was so happy to hear that she has a new book out called Raising a Resilient Child.

Speaker 2:

My guest today is Dr Amanda Morris, who works at the University of Oklahoma. She is a developmental scientist with research interests in parenting, emotion regulation and developmental psychopathology. Her research focuses on the role of emotion regulation in child and adolescent adjustment and the ways in which children learn successful emotion regulation skills. But, my friends, this is everything we do here at Curious Neuron. You can't even imagine how long I spent just going through her studies. I've summarized some of it on Instagram, but it is such good research and today she shares quite a bit of it with you and everything you need to know about supporting your child's emotions. So I will see you on the other side. Please enjoy my conversation with Dr Amanda Sheffield Morris.

Speaker 2:

Hi, everyone, welcome back. I'm here now with Amanda Morris. Hi, welcome, hi, thank you, it's great to be here. It is such a pleasure to speak with you, and you know I had come across your research a couple of months ago and just fell in love with everything that you're doing, because it's so important for parents to know what you're doing, and I do think that you know part of the work we do here at Curious Neuron is to try to find that kind of research that parents need to know about, and you are exactly what we look for, and I'm so excited that you have a book coming out. So congratulations, thank you.

Speaker 1:

It's great to be able to share what we do and, as a parent and a researcher, I'm always happy to talk about the things that we're finding out, what we're doing, especially if it can help parents.

Speaker 2:

Right, of course, and that's what we need. We need more help, and I think it's not the advice that we need. You know, we need the why. Why do we need to do this way? What is? And that's exactly what you offer us. So I'm excited to dive into this conversation. Can you give us a little bit of a background in terms of overall your research and what you do, and then we'll get into the specific topic for our talk today? Sure.

Speaker 1:

I'm a developmental psychologist and I'm at Oklahoma State University and I've been studying parenting and children's social and emotional development for about 20 years now and I have a number of different studies and I've looked at parenting in a variety of ways, from infancy all the way through adolescence, and I think what my work keeps coming back to is the importance of the relationship and the importance of the parent-child relationship and how to foster that, and I know you're really interested in the emotion side of things, and so one of the things that I've studied in a variety of different studies is the way that children learn how to regulate emotions and what parents can do to support their children regulating emotions and how that looks different at different ages. So parenting is really different with infants versus adolescents, and so that's something that I really enjoy thinking about specifically what's going on in the child's life and what can a parent do to be supportive.

Speaker 2:

And I think, when it comes to emotions, a lot of parents really, there are misunderstandings, there's a lot of there's a gap in knowledge because we weren't raised in an environment where our parents were thinking of emotion regulation skills.

Speaker 2:

And it was you know, they just didn't know about that yet, and now we do, but there's still a lot of learning on our end as parents. So how about we begin a conversation with understanding the basics? What do we mean when we say emotion regulation skills, and maybe walk us through not every single age, but sort of the stages that we should be expecting from our kids when it comes to regulating their emotions?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, sure. So really, what we're talking about here is helping children learn how to manage either anger or sadness, worry, anxiety in the moment, and giving them those skills so that, when they're not with their parents, they can handle the emotions and understand what's going on. And something that we all need, and a big part of helping our kids regulate emotions or manage their emotions is managing them and ourselves, and that's the hard part.

Speaker 1:

That's a really hard part of it, and so one of the things that we talk about and that our research shows is that children who do have abilities to regulate and handle their emotions keep themselves calm in the moment. Who can, you know, understand? Okay, I'm feeling angry, but I'm not going to lash out and hit, I'm just going to talk about it. Kids who can do those types of things do better in school. They have less behavior problems. Children who are able to kind of understand and cope with their anxieties and worry and sadness are better able to deal with relationships. They're less likely to have anxiety and depression. So we really see the ability to regulate emotions and manage emotions as a precursor to later adjustment in health in children, and so we started finding this in the 90s and early 2000s, like that emotion regulation was a really strong predictor of child outcomes, and so, along with other researchers, we thought, okay, well, we know this is really important.

Speaker 1:

What can parents do to help facilitate emotion regulation? And so, especially if you think about it developmentally, when children are young, a lot of regulation takes place in the parent-child dyad, so the mom or the dad or whoever the caregiver maybe is actually helping the child to regulate their emotions. So when they're a little bitty, that's rocking, that's soothing them, that's picking them up, that's comforting them. As they get older, we start to help them regulate on their own. And so we scaffold conversations about well, how are you feeling, what can you do to make yourself feel better? Let's take a deep breath. And then, as children get older, it's more about sort of walking alongside of them and helping them to understand and to kind of recruit those skills that they've learned along the way, hopefully so that you're just there, kind of as a supporter, to talk them through, helping them manage their emotions when you're not around. And so there's that transition that naturally happens as our kids get older.

Speaker 2:

I think the period when a child isn't fully verbal or isn't using their, aren't using their words yet is really difficult for a lot of parents. That's when I get the most questions from parents saying you know, my toddler, my two year old, just hits and screams and throws toys when they're mad. Is there something wrong with my child? Why are they acting this way? And I think the other email that I get very often is you know, I'm applying everything you're saying, I'm staying calm with my two year old and it's usually that stage where it's like why is my child still acting out? I gave them exactly what they wanted and they threw the cup back at me right Like what's going on? Have I done something wrong? So those early years seem to be very difficult for parents. But from what you're saying, should we still be working on the scaffolding, even if they're not able to kind of talk back to us and explain what they're feeling?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think it's really important. So when kids are little, they understand a lot more than they can say. And so starting early like helping them to well, first of all, just recognizing when children are regulating their emotions, when you may not even notice it so they may look away. So a young child may look away and divert their attention from something. That's overstimulating and that's a form of emotion regulation. When children are really little, they regulate through sucking behavior.

Speaker 1:

So the pacifiers or the bottles, have our breastfeeding, but that is one of the ways that they help regulate themselves and calm themselves. The other thing that children do is regulate through routines and rituals, and so when we have a routine or ritual, you may not think, okay, I'm helping my toddler to regulate their emotions. But you are, because they know what to expect at bedtime, that I read a story, that I have bath time, that I lay on my bed my mom reads the story to me, or you know, this is my ritual, this is my routine and that's really calming for children. And so when they're little, before they're super verbal, parents can help their children understand what happens in a typical day or what the day is going to look like and sort of that predictability of the routine. The body kind of gets adapted to. You know that regular rhythmic situation which can be very comforting to a child.

Speaker 1:

So I think, noticing when kids are regulating their emotions, I think it's still okay to talk about it. Kids are going to understand more than they can tell you, but you just have to stay patient because it's normal, I mean, before kids have language. It's really frustrating for them. So you know, maybe some type. There are lots of ways that we can communicate with our kids, but certainly having those rituals and routines is really important at that age.

Speaker 2:

I think you've just kind of confirmed for a lot of parents why we saw such huge behavioral changes at the beginning of the pandemic, when I was getting so many emails from parents saying that even themselves, though.

Speaker 2:

What's interesting is that parents are saying they were stressed and that they had noticed their child. You know their behavior change, and it's like those days where you're tired or you have a deadline and you don't have time to parent, but you need to parent and then you notice that your child's behavior changes. I'm assuming there's a connection there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So they definitely are looking at you and watching you and observing you and so a lot of emotion regulation is learned by well what is my parent doing? And children are really in tune with their parents' emotions and even at a biological level they're in tune. We see synchrony and heart rate synchrony in facial expressions and in tones of voice. So I think one of the things to realize is you know, that idea of you got to fake it till you make it in a way you know if you can at least try to stay calm, kids can really pick up on how you're doing, and then that's going to sort of affect them as well. So you're right, during the pandemic we were all stressed and our schedules were crazy, so it was really challenging.

Speaker 2:

And they do really pick up. I remember I've said the story once or twice on the podcast now, but by the time I had my third child, I had three kids under the age of four and when I would have these moments of feeling overwhelmed I would sing their little songs, like their kids' songs that we were singing. But it was just my way of trying to regulate myself, but I guess the way I was singing it sounded different than I usually did and my then three year old said to me mommy, are you mad? And I was like no, I'm singing a song, like why would I be mad? But she caught on. So they really do pick up on those little differences that we think they don't.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and then other things like, just you know, being physically active. That helps our bodies to calm down, especially with our little kids getting enough sleep. All of those regular rhythmic things are so important in helping children regulate their emotions.

Speaker 2:

You've touched a little bit upon the importance of the parent, or actually we've talked about it quite a bit now because it is important. The other email that's very common and even when I put up polls on Instagram, we get such a high percentage of 70 or 80% of parents saying that they feel very triggered sometimes and they feel like they automatically go into the rage feeling and that they yell more often than they would like and that they have guilt after around this right. So we're talking about regulating our emotions and the importance of that and how we're modeling this to our kids and trying to co-regulate what happens with that when that parent really struggles with that Like what might we see in the home if we don't work on it and what can we do as a parent to start the work on that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, I think the first thing to recognize is that's completely normal, that it's hard to be a parent.

Speaker 1:

It's hard when you're tired and we're managing all these different things, and so we all occasionally will lose our temper and then we feel bad about it later.

Speaker 1:

But and I think it's good to talk to kids about that I'm so sorry that I lost my temper and I didn't mean to talk to you that way, but I think that one of the things that parents can do you know that idea of caring for yourself, making sure that you know you have the supports in your life that you need but also something that we we talk about in our book is this idea of really understanding and reflecting on your own childhood and your own experiences, because that comes out and so oftentimes, when you hear a baby crying or your child is upset, instead of just saying, oh, my child wants a cookie, or my child is upset or my child, I can't calm my baby down.

Speaker 1:

But they're just tired, our bodies kind of go in that fight or flight mode and we get really triggered or nervous, and then that causes us to lose our our emotions and so we might lash out or get upset, and so I think, really reflecting on what happened potentially in your own childhood that makes you worry or panic, when your child is simply just being a kid, having that recognition and being able to kind of sit with that and think, okay, I would, I don't want to be like this person in my past, but I do want to be like maybe this teacher or somebody who who stayed calm and really trying to channel that and understand that we have these patterns of behavior that we develop as children around emotions that come out when we're stressed, and so kind of recognizing those and recognizing what's working and what isn't working, but really being intentional about it.

Speaker 1:

It's not all you think it's all about my kids, but really a lot of it is about you and dealing with where you are as a person and where you've been and sort of how that is affecting your relationship with your child and how you interact with your child.

Speaker 2:

This is something that I wish all these prenatal courses had right. I remember mine were. I took it eight years ago now. But I speak to some parents and it's starting, I think, in some places. I'm in Canada, but having you know your first child and then the child cries and for some reason it's triggering you and you don't understand it. I wish that there was some part of these courses that spoke about what you just said, that give us the time and the opportunity to revisit our past in a way that we can understand ourselves and how we might react, because we've done it through autopilot. You know, in a relationship we might see some problems in the relationship, but we're able to function. And then it's when we have to function properly for that child and you're not. That's the hardest part, so difficult.

Speaker 1:

Right. And so there's a program called Circle of Security and they talk about shark music in this program and it's they show this video of a beautiful beach and they play this really peaceful music, and then they show the same video with the music from Jaws. So this same exact video in the shark music. How do you interpret the scene? And it's based on? You know what is that music going on in your head? You know so. It's my baby just simply crying because they're tired, or, oh my gosh, I'm a bad mother, I can't do this. You know my child is going to be, you know, have problems their whole life. I mean so those scripts that we have in our heads. Sometimes we have to interrupt and say like no, no, no, this is okay, and but recognizing where maybe that came from is. I completely agree with you. It's a huge part of a lot of the information that is missing in these prenatal courses that are just so focused on like physical health and yes.

Speaker 2:

Which is important, but we know from research now I think it's clear enough, I think there's enough research out there that there should be a lot more emphasis on the emotional well being. Part of that emotional aspect we speak about, like these scripts that we have in our mind, are these patterns, and I think sometimes these patterns kind of lead to. I'm thinking of the differences sometimes between moms and dads as well, and some of the studies that I've read about hiding or masking emotions. Or sometimes a parent will email me and ask is it, should I be hiding these negative and I'm saying it in quotes because they're still informing us, they're still important and I know in research we still say negative, but I try to tell parents not to put a label on it, right? It's some sort of some form of communication. So how do we, I guess, as parents, we might be somebody who's getting triggered, but we might also be somebody who's who lacks in that emotional awareness or that masks emotions very often. How do we kind of navigate that as a parent?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So I think that's a really good question. I think what is the function of the emotion? It's telling us something, right, and so really being able to think about what it's signaling to us. And we feel that emotion. We may feel it really strongly, but how are we expressing that, how are we handling that? And so some emotions are telling us something, but in the moment we've got to try to stay calm because if we don't, then that's gonna send a message to those around us. Then maybe we don't wanna send or get everyone up for that.

Speaker 1:

So one of the things keeping yourself calm, taking care of yourself but also one of your questions you were asking about in the email was different types of emotional styles and sort of how parents can respond to their child, and so one of the things. So in our work we talk about three different ways that children learn about emotions. They call that emotion socialization, and one is through observation, so simply like what is going on around me when other people feel emotions and how do I respond, and they're learning by what they're seeing. The second way is through what we call emotional security or the emotional climate of the family, and so that really has to do with what I was talking about Like is this do I feel safe, do I feel comfort or my needs being met? Is there a pattern of routines and rituals? So I know what to expect instead of living in a life where things are really chaotic. But the third way is that, specifically when a child is experiencing an emotion or feeling something, what is the child doing and what does the parent do in that moment? So this is really comes from the work of John Gottman, who does a lot of research on marital and couple relationships. But there are several different styles and that parents can think about, and the research is quite clear which ones result in better outcomes.

Speaker 1:

So one is being an emotion coach and so it's just what it sounds like. Okay, I'm gonna help my child get through this situation by talking it through, by labeling the emotion, by showing empathy toward my child and helping my child problem solve. They have to be a little bit older, but really you're helping them to problem solve and cope with that emotion. So you're coaching them through that and I think what helps is to understand what is the opposite of that or what is contradictory to that, and one is emotion dismissing. So I'm just gonna ignore that emotion. That's not a big deal, I'm not gonna acknowledge it.

Speaker 1:

And you don't wanna overly acknowledge emotions, especially to make kids even more fearful or more upset. But just dismissing the emotion is not helpful either, because then they're not learning how to manage it on their own right. And then the other way is punishing a child for emotions. So you think, oh well, boys, don't cry or don't stop acting like a baby, really putting kids down for feeling an emotion. So you're not accepting it, you're not helping them, but you're really punishing them for feeling that. And then another thing that we sometimes do is what we call emotion magnification, and so that's one that it is really hard. So when kids get upset, then we get upset and we kind of have this spiral and so we're affecting each other. So rather than dismissing or punishing or magnifying the emotion, you wanna stay calm, you wanna be the coach you wanna respond in that way to help your child be able to learn those skills to regulate their emotions and really talk that through.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for painting that picture. I think it really helps us and for parents listening, kind of see where they might stand in between, like with all these styles. I think one thing that comes to mind is very often a parent will reach out to me talking about their child's behavior and I'm not, that's not what I know as well as the emotional part, but it's usually the emotional part, right. So they come with that behavior and then I asked them about underlying emotions, like what might be and I think Mona Delahook talks about that like the sort of iceberg and what's beneath the iceberg for the behavior.

Speaker 2:

So we're hearing a lot about this, a lot more, but when I will speak to these parents, they don't understand. Some of them don't understand or don't know what that underlying emotion might be. They just see the behavior at the surface and then don't realize that there might be some fear underneath that, or anxiety around something or sadness, right. So how do we if we didn't grow up in this environment where we learned about emotions and now we're learning it at the same time that we have to teach it to our child? It's so hard. So where do we begin in terms of the learning and how do we sort of see the behavior differently Because we are sometimes disciplining or punishing that child for behavior, but it's actually an emotion that they need support with in that regulation part.

Speaker 1:

Right, right, right. So that's a good question, and I think you have to understand that in different cultures and different settings, emotions may be adaptive or not adaptive, and so we've done some research in different environments where it was all about anger, people were not really in touch with feeling sad or lost. It was expressed as anger even though there was a lot of loss in that community, and so I think that loss was seen as like a, and sadness was seen as a weakness. And so I do think you're right, like realizing okay, maybe I thought I was always angry, but maybe I was really understanding or experiencing a sense of loss which would be related to sadness. So I think you know, part of it is just going back to like okay, how am I feeling and what am I frustrated? I mean, is a goal being blocked? That would be anger. Am I feeling lost? That would be sadness. You know that I'm missing something. Am I feeling and maybe it's a combination, it's not always, you know this clear Am I feeling fearful? Is that worry, that anxiety? Am I afraid of something? You know so, really, you know stepping back and thinking about what is making me feel this sensation or this emotion, and I will say that you know we talk about positive emotions too and sometimes, you know, people and kids can be overly positive too.

Speaker 1:

Where they're, you know, that might be look like hyperactive active, where I can't control myself when I'm shouldn't be laughing but I can't help myself. I mean it's not all about negative, but I do think the negative and sometimes it's a lack of positive emotions that will lead to depression and internalizing problems. But I think that understanding those negative emotions because many of them are gonna lead to more psychopathology and problems later on. So there's not an easy answer except to say sometimes you just have to really think about it, talk it through. You know, can't hurt to talk to somebody who has, you know, expertise in this if you're really struggling. But you know what is the root going on here, because there are some things that are innate to humans that these emotions are signaling to us and so kind of getting in touch with, maybe, why I called it something else or why I'm not okay with being sad or why I'm not okay with, you know, my anxiety. I don't know.

Speaker 2:

It's not an easy answer but no, I get that, but it at least allows parents to start that sort of work. That because, like I said, it truly is a lot of work and I think parents feel overwhelmed because they just have never been given these tools and now they have to teach these tools. And that's what I keep hearing from parents. They just don't know what to do. But already that awareness piece and trying to get a label, I guess putting a name to it, if they can.

Speaker 2:

We have also very limited vocabulary around emotions, right, like I feel that that's if you search emotions online or like a chart, I don't know, even with Mark Brackett's work, the ruler approach, I think anything to just expand that vocabulary allows you to understand certain moments that you're not just mad. Maybe you're frustrated, right, you're not just sad, perhaps you're disappointed in that. And if we can start saying that out loud that's what I've learned with my own kids They'll use the word disappointed in a situation. Or, like this morning, one of my kids, my six year old, we were doing something together and he got upset and I missed the beginning part of that, but it led to feeling frustrated, but he was confused as to what I was saying but I kept pushing like what do you mean by that? And I was just trying to get it out of him and he just became really angry. And I just saw the anger part and I missed the part where he felt confused and overwhelmed by what we were doing. So I think having more words is a good start, maybe sometimes.

Speaker 1:

I think it's a great start, and so there are positive and positive affect and negative affects, because I don't know if you're familiar with the panacea, but there are like lists of emotions that we use in research Am I feeling joyful, am I feeling happy, am I feeling, like you said, disappointed or sad? And really thinking about all those different words and how those different emotions differ is really important.

Speaker 2:

So, hopefully, that's a good start for parents, and even journaling has had a huge impact on me and just kind of talking about what's on my mind not talking about it, but writing about it and then picking out the emotions that are coming from that and questioning why you mentioned, asking why I think that's a really good place for us to start, especially when we don't understand what's going on with us.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, for sure, you know, I think for parents. You mentioned the home environment and I want to make sure that we take time to go back to that, because I do know from some parents that reach out to talk about that environment. That isn't what it should be. So you were talking about, you know, emotion, socialization and that sort of safe environment, and sometimes it can be chaotic and unfortunately there are still many homes that might be in that chaotic aspect and parents are not modeling the right way to regulate. They might be very anxious because of certain situations in their home and then that home doesn't feel safe to that child. How do we support that child if we? That's what they have right now, you know, like, how can we try to help them, knowing that that's the situation they're in right now?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, I think that of course, I would always say like, go to the parent first and really try to help the parent and figure out what's going on and making sure their basic needs are met Right, and I think that we could maybe think about some sort of routine.

Speaker 1:

I think just implementing a routine can be really helpful for a lot of families, but also quality childcare programs outside of the home. So when kids are having experiences, maybe at home, it's really stressful, but if they can go to an early childhood program where it's very nurturing and supportive and they have a routine, that can play a huge role in their development and the research is really clear on that and in particular, kids who are in foster care, if they can also be, at the same time, a consistent early childcare environment, that's the thing we can do. So really promoting that through like different policies and really helping parents okay, what can you do when your child is not with you? That is really gonna help them, because you can't be with your child all the time, especially if you're working or doing other things, and so thinking about not just the home but outside of the home how can I make sure that they feel safe and supported?

Speaker 2:

Thank you. I think that's really good advice. I think for parents who do worry and worry about that environment at home, that to think about the outside environment and how that could kind of complement not or contribute to that child's development is so important. Going back, I guess, to that parent that is struggling and I'm wondering you know you mentioned policies and to help support I'm thinking of that parent that's struggling, I'm thinking of the child who maybe isn't learning those emotion regulation skills that they need. What I'm just curious to know, with the research that you've done, what sort of policies or what sort of changes would you hope are made in our society? Yeah, it's a big question, sorry.

Speaker 2:

I just as you were talking, I thought about it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it's really important, I think, sometimes to get away from some of the basic things that we need as human beings. And so the sense of community, of support we you think about how, even just today, like how isolated families are, you know, not having their extended family near them or with them. You kind of have to create your own little families if your family is far away. So really building and facilitating and understanding the importance of community, the importance of support outside of the home, so whether that's we talk about protective and compensatory experiences in our work, which are is PACEs, which is we call that the antidote to adverse childhood experience I'm sure you've learned about that and talked about that on your podcast. But PACEs really have to do with, you know, providing those relationships and resources throughout the lifespan.

Speaker 1:

So, you know, making sure that our kids have friends, that our kids are going to these activities, that things like sports, organized activities, like you know, scouting, or faith-based institutions, like different things where, if you think about in the past, growing up, we had these groups or we had the support system and we've kind of gotten away from a lot of that and there's a cost. There's a cost to society when we're not promoting belongingness and when we're not promoting togetherness and support outside of the home. So you know, providing those resources through learning. But also, just you know, the after-school activities and the you know often our kids who are involved in sports. It's so expensive or something that not everybody can access, and those kinds of activities are wonderful for kids to regulate their bodies and to feel a part of a group, and so any kind of policies and programming that facilitates, you know, health and wellness. But being part of a group and not in isolation, I think is something that is really important.

Speaker 2:

It's interesting that you're mentioning that community aspect, because that's something I've been hearing about from parents as well, in terms of feeling so lonely and feeling like they are alone in this journey. And I remember eight years ago when I had my first child, I was part of these like new mom groups and we'd go for walks and we'd go for coffee and it just felt so nice. They were strangers, but it just felt nice knowing that every Tuesday morning at 10 o'clock in the morning you know we would meet for that coffee. But now, especially after the pandemic or like a lot of that changed. I wonder how we can get back to that right, Because a lot of it's come the norm now, where there aren't these groups anymore or everything's online and it's not the same as that in-person contact.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think you're right, like it's not the same to check in with people on Instagram you know it's or on Facebook. It's. Having those friends are very different than taking time to be with our friends or a group or, like you said, a mom, a mommy's group or whatever it might be. We really, I think we're realizing how lonely we are as a society After the pandemic because those things that we took for granted and we thought maybe they weren't making a huge difference. I think they really were. We need that connection. That's part of being humans. We need the connection Outside of the home as well, especially since we're not all living with our extended family right around us, right?

Speaker 2:

Well, a lot of people aren't anymore like before. You know it was. It's different from, I don't say, even my mom. She was close to so many people in her family so there were always events and even my grandmother they had. Here in, in in the parts where we live here in Quebec, my grandmother had like 16 brothers and sisters like they Would live on a farm and they were always together. What a difference now, like there's no activities that we go to. You know it's. It's just so different and I get that. I'd love to give you time to talk about your book as well. Raising a resilient child. What are some things? Now that somebody has listened to our conversation, I'm sure they're very curious to know what they would learn from your book and and, and, yeah, what you've covered.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so our book really talks about the idea of balanced parenting and so that Need to have a really strong relationship with your child, to be nurturing and supporting, but also to provide that discipline and that Structure. So it's sort of this mix of we call it authoritative parenting, but we've got it taken it a little further to focus a lot on the relationship and also on making sure that the parent is caring for themselves. And so you know, it's always this push-pull how protective do I need to be? How much do I need to do this for my child versus how, how do I need to let my child go on their own? How much support do I provide? And so we talk about balanced parenting in the book and we talk about what that looks like at each stage of development, from infancy all the way to late adolescence and young adulthood.

Speaker 2:

Wow, I'm sure parents are gonna love that because you know we always even myself like wonder and worry. You know how will I parent my child? I think I'm starting to understand my kids now, but they're older and we're approaching those teenage years and that's hard.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it really is, and so some things are the same, but a lot of the struggles that teens are dealing with compared to your toddlers are different. We talk about sort of what are the issues that children are dealing with at these different stages Developmentally and what can we do as parents to help build resilience. And so and I think, as and my, my kids are young adults, you know 19 and 20, and so I Realized there's not a whole lot of research and support out there once I mean they're still, you're still a parent, but thinking about you know late adolescence and early adulthood and how to let your kids go but still stay involved in their life. So I the book is with my colleague, jennifer Hayes Grudeau, and we tell a lot of stories about our own kids and our own families, but then we tie it back to the research On social emotional development and really what, what are the strategies that parents can do at each stage to promote resilience?

Speaker 2:

I love that and the fact that you both share part of your own experiences is wonderful too, because you know from my experience. You know you talk about certain things online and then people think like we've got it all under control.

Speaker 2:

And it's not the case at all. They think, because I talk about emotions, that my emotions are always calm and it's not. It's not the fact, you know it's. However, we have the tools that and I've seen that with my kids like trying to teach them the tools that they need and Scaffolding, as you said at the beginning, that importance of having that conversation, especially after something happens. Like you know, conversation I had with my kids a couple days ago when they were arguing and I was trying to teach them after it all happened and they said what they said to each other, but perspective taking right, like not just thinking about like well, you did that and you said this, but how would you feel if you would have been in their shoes and you would have said what you said? So I think that those are the tools that we need as parents to really help ourselves and our relationships, but also with our kids.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you know, I just want to touch on something. We spoke about these parenting styles. You just mentioned authoritative parenting and it's something that keeps coming into the picture, where parents feel that there's a lot of talk around positive parenting or responsive power. There are so many different. Oh yeah, and I think there's a misunderstanding sometimes that this positive parenting, or whatever you want to call it, has to do with nurturing the emotions no boundaries kind of you know baby in your child. There's a lot of these terms that come out from parents and I don't feel that it is that and I think that it's ignoring the fact that we need we do need to support our children's emotions and we can't ignore that. Have you Heard all these terms and and what are your thoughts around that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think, um, number one, the relationship is the most important thing and that unconditional for your child. But, number two, you have to be the parent, um, and the plan is about teaching, it's about providing boundaries, it's about providing structure, and so, especially, even as kids get older, they really their brains are developing into their late 20s. You need to be their prefrontal cortex, you need to have yes, um, you need to have conversations with them and, um, so kids really do better when there are clear rules and limits and boundaries. Now they need to have a say, and, and they may not get their way, but they get their say.

Speaker 1:

That's, um, the active parenting curriculum that I teach in my class, um, is is important that you let kids have a voice, but ultimately you're the parent, you know, and so, um, you want to be supportive. But that's where it gets at that idea of balance, and if you think about bombons original work on authoritative parenting, there are two sides, you know, you cannot be overly indulgent, and that is almost more harmful than if you're overly strict, right, and so, um, it's really, um, you know, you want to be supportive, but you have to be the parent. Yeah, and I mentioned circle of security earlier. But, um, they talk about in their program that the parents are always bigger, wiser and stronger. You know that's your role and and sometimes, um, when we're thinking about emotions or like and it's really hard to not when my kids are upset, for me not to get upset too, um, but you know I have to be the parent here.

Speaker 2:

You know, um, and so that's something to remember and you know these kind of parenting styles and and this, I understand that these boundaries are very important, but I think there are still many homes where there's one parent and that is more strict, um isn't warm towards a child's emotions, doesn't respond Um or connect with the child, and and then parents will write to me saying is this damaging my child? And you know I'm trying to this. Is the parents saying I'm trying to be more of that positive parent, I'm acknowledging their emotions, I'm trying to do the best I can. But then, on the other end, there's a parent in the home who is dismissing their emotions or punishing them for being sad, or Dismissing their worry, and and the anxiety is getting worse. So how do we, as a parent, help the? We may, perhaps our partner, understand the importance of these emotions, um and and that we can't be more of those negative styles of responding to our children?

Speaker 1:

That's a really important question and I think one of the things that we talk about in the first chapter of our book is having those conversations. What are your values as a parent? Because sometimes they differ. And so if you really value obedience and your partner really values autonomy and being an individual, you need to talk about that and realize, kind of, where they're coming from. And so having conversations but also realizing that not everybody's going to parent the same way.

Speaker 1:

And so when my husband it's really funny to hear him talk about being married to someone who's an experienced and he will say her advice was excellent and that really really helped me, but I let him do things his way. So I tried really hard not to be like, oh, you should be doing it this way or that way, because in general I'd be like, well, you might want to try this, but not every parent is going to parent the same way. And it's good for kids to have different experiences, as long as your overall approach is supporting the child and kids. Again, kids are pretty resilient and so having one parent who's doing all these things is still really helpful. But I think just having those conversations and thinking about your values and goals.

Speaker 2:

I really like that as a starting point I think for a couple, because there must be a lot of disputes now, especially since we hear about the importance of positive parenting or whatever it is, and I think parents want to be on the right page and want to parent their child in the right way. But there isn't really a recipe or this blueprint. It's really having some sort of compass, sure, but not an exact method to get to that end goal.

Speaker 1:

And you know this because you have multiple children. When you get it right with one, you have the other one and it's totally different. So yeah, it's not one size fits all, for sure.

Speaker 2:

Definitely I would speak to you for another three hours. I absolutely love everything that you're teaching us. Perhaps you'll have to come back. If everybody, whenever we have an episode that does really well, and people start asking for the return of that researcher, I'm sure you're going to get that email. But I do want to end this conversation by perhaps if you can give our audience two to three really important steps, something that they can start tomorrow in terms of creating that emotionally aware home or whatever we want to call that. But where can they start the work?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, I think the first step is really thinking about where you are as a parent, and so you were mentioning journaling earlier. So it's taking some time for yourself in the morning, before the kids get up, to journal or to go on a walk or to have mindfulness meditations, just breathing, just really having some time to get yourself in the right mindset, and that, I think, is something that I would set aside that time. I mean, that is a priority, so that you are taking care of yourself. I think that would be the first thing, and then the second thing I think would be if you don't have a routine and it doesn't have to be the same thing every day, like at three o'clock I do this, at five o'clock I do this, but in general, here's what my day looks like, and it might be different.

Speaker 1:

My kids were little. We talked about school days and family days, and family days were the weekends and so. But what does your routine look like? And getting enough rest like for parents, especially when your kids are little? If you can get your, the kids are going to need 10, 12 hours of sleep. You can get in the bed at eight and then you have from eight to 10 and your kids are asleep what a gift, you know, and really thinking about routines and how to how to get those routines and rituals enforced.

Speaker 1:

And then I think the third thing would be to approach a plan and maybe have a conversation with your partner about okay, when things are not going well, what do we do? What are our discipline? Go to strategies and so, when they're little, maybe distracting them or setting up a safe space for my kids so that I'm not always telling them no, and maybe that I use some sort of strategy like time out or time in, you know, or a logical consequences or natural consequences, but that you have kind of a plan, because when you get upset or when your kids are having issues or struggles, if you don't know what to do, that's when we resort to okay, you know I'm going to yell or I'm going to spank you, but if you kind of know ahead of time, here's what I'm going to do, that really is helpful in the moment.

Speaker 2:

Such an important point about that game plan because you're right, in the moments when we are triggered or our children do something and we just let our emotions take over, we might do something that we weren't thinking about. You know, and we regret immediately. So I think it's important for parents to hear that. You know, just very quickly, I touch on spanking quite often on my platform and that's usually when there's a lot of pushback and I'm okay with that because it's important that we talk about the research. It's important for me, for curious neuron.

Speaker 2:

I always approach everything through curiosity and compassion. I believe it's important to understand why a parent resorts to that. But once I had made I had written a post about perhaps you're spanking because you need to regulate your emotions and we need to work on that, I put it, I think, a bit more gently, but I think that we do need to bring that up, that it's not a method of discipline, but it's us kind of struggling in that moment to know what to do. And the parents that I have spoken to often talk about regretting it immediately and not knowing what happened in that moment. Right, like you ended up in that red state, like that, just enraged and resorted to that. So I think what you said is such an important piece of advice for parents having that game plan, and at least you know when this happens. We do that Together as a couple, we have that plan together and that's what we believe in and that's what our values are.

Speaker 1:

Right, and I can say we talk about spanking in the book, and the research is really clear that it is a form of punishment that does not give us what we want in the short or the long. Maybe in the short term, but in the long term it is not helpful. And so I think having other tools and we recognize now with our research the long term effects of spanking, and so I'm definitely on the same page with you and I think the science is too. But I understand that that's sometimes the go to for parents. You know that's how they were parented and so you know it's not out of it. It's just we know more now and so we want to give parents tools.

Speaker 2:

Right, thank you for everything that you shared with us. In my show notes, I will put the link to your book and to some of your articles as well, because parents here in our community love to read articles and learn more. Thank you for everything that you do and for the book congratulations. I can't wait to read it and I can't wait to speak to you again.

Speaker 1:

Okay, well, thank you, it was really a pleasure.

Speaker 2:

Bye, bye that is all for today, friends. Thank you for joining the Curious no Unpodcast. Do not forget to rate it and review it wherever you listen to the podcast. I will see you next week. Please have a beautiful and wonderful week, bye you.