Is the state of my relationship damaging my attachment with my child?

Ever wonder how your earliest experiences of love and connection with caregivers are playing out in your adult relationships? Join me, along with couples therapist Vanessa Morgan, as we uncover how attachment styles developed in infancy can have a far-reaching influence on our interaction patterns with romantic partners and even our children. Vanessa guides us through understanding different attachment styles, the importance of self-reflection, and the powerful effect of establishing secure connections that can rewrite our relationship narratives for the better.

We learn that expressing personal needs and understanding the physical sensations linked to emotions are essential skills for healthier interactions. Vanessa and I also tackle the delicacy of parental conflict, the necessity of a post-argument narrative for children's emotional security, and how these moments of repair can strengthen our bonds.

Lastly, we highlight the importance of addressing personal traumas, the principles of secure functioning in partnerships, and how these steps can prevent negative cycles from repeating in future generations. 

Follow Vanessa:
https://www.instagram.com/vanessamorgantherapy/

https://vanessamorgantherapy.com/


Listen to Similar Episodes:
Dr. Tracy Dalgleish: How to maintain a healthy relationship after having kids

Protecting yourself and healing from a narcissistic person with best selling author Dr. Ramani Durvasula

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Yeah, I really hope the mentality around couples therapy becomes more preventative and mainstream culture right. The people just kind of go and do checkups like people go to their annual physical.

Speaker 2: 0:23

Hello, my dear friend, welcome back to another episode of the curious neuron podcast. My name is Cindy Huffington and I am your host. Today I want to talk about couples and specifically how your attachment style impacts your relationship, how it impacts the relationship that you know, your marriage or the couple that you're in, as well as the relationship with your child. And I'm saying impacts, but it might not necessarily impact it. I think it's important for us to talk about that because sometimes parents feel that if they didn't have a secure attachment with their own parent, that there's a chance that they might mess things up with their child when it comes to secure attachment, and I think it's important for us to talk about that. So I invited a couples therapist, vanessa Morgan, to the podcast and I'm super excited to share that interview with you. So before we do that, as always, I do want to ask you to take a moment to rate the podcast and to leave a review. It's just so important and it helps me continue the podcast if you want to get some more episodes. Every single episode that has an interview is sponsored by the Tannenbaum Open Science Institute at the Neuro here in Montreal, as well as the McConnell Foundation, and this sponsorship allows me to get somebody to edit the podcast so the video that goes up on the YouTube channel and to edit the audio that you're listening to now. So if this podcast is important to you, make sure that you're subscribed and then take a moment to rate it. Just just rate it on five stars. That's the least amount of work. That would really help me. But also, if you have a little bit more time, to leave a review and let me know, send me an email at info at kiersnarrncom if you'd like to leave a review. If you left a review, send me a screenshot and I'll send you a little surprise, a little gift, to thank you.

Speaker 2: 2:06

In the show notes of this episode you will find a link to my new workbook called the Reflective Parent Workbook. Basically, for the past year I've been journaling a lot and thinking about which reflections truly support our emotional health, and I think that it's more than just you know, thinking about how we're feeling. I think it's truly about thinking about the relationships that we have and our role in these relationships or how we manage stress in our lives, and these are the kinds of reflection prompts that I have in the new workbook. So the link is in the show notes. It's called the Reflective Parent Workbook and, as always, you know that I am the co-founder of the WonderGrade app and this app helps your child cope with emotions or learn how to cope with emotions and, most importantly, it's a support for you. So if you'd like to test it out free for a year, the link is also in the show notes, and I am sponsored as well by some companies and three of them Poc Poc, which is an app for kids, the first app that my kids ever got. It's an open-ended app that isn't noisy for them, it's not noisy for parents, it's not fast for kids, it's not annoying. It is truly still my favorite game app for kids. So if you're looking for something that's guilt-free, you can click the link in the show notes and get 50% off.

Speaker 2: 3:23

And when it comes to therapy, that's something I believe is very important. We don't all need it, but sometimes some of us need a little extra support, and better help allows you to have therapy at home, in the comfort of your home, without leaving, and I know that's important for parents. And Holstey is what you'll see. If you watch the YouTube videos, you'll see their products behind me, because I use them all the time and I just want easy access to them. If you are looking for a community to support you through your wellness journey, they have an amazing online community and they have these reflection cards. So if you want to do it slowly and pull out a card every day or every week and use that as your reflection prompt, I think that their kids, their cards for kids or for adults are brilliant and I'm so happy that they are also part of this community.

Speaker 2: 4:08

In the show notes I'm also going to post some other podcast episodes If you'd like to listen to more. This particular podcast that is about couples, I think is very aligned with the conversation I had with Dr Tracy Daglish, as well as the relationship, the conversation that I had with Dr Ramani, which was a recent one around narcissism. So if you haven't heard those, I'll post the link in the show notes so that you don't miss it. And that's all I have for the ads. They're not ads, they're just me thanking everybody for being part of this community.

Speaker 2: 4:42

But I would like to introduce you to our very special guest today, vanessa Morgan. She's an experienced couples therapist, having spent 10 years in private practice specializing in relationship counseling. Her qualifications include certification in PACT-PACT, which is a Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy, and Training in DARE, an attachment-based trauma therapy. She holds a master's in counseling and a bachelor's in psychology and social behavior, with a wealth of expertise gained from over 10,000 clinical hours working with couples of all ages and backgrounds. Her specialties include couples therapy, relational trauma and helping couples successfully transition into parenthood. So I came across her work on Instagram and I thought that she had a really interesting approach to bringing in attachment theory and information into couples and talking about things such as one that I loved was how we get what we need from friendships sometimes, and we're going to talk about all of that in the conversation.

Speaker 2: 5:47

It's another important episode because I know lots of parents are struggling right now in their relationships. I know because of the emails I'm receiving, so I'm hoping that you can see, or you can pull out, lots of reflection prompts from this episode that will support you through your journey. Let's not wait any longer. Thank you for being here and I hope that you enjoy my episode with Vanessa Morgan. Hello, everyone, welcome back. As I said before, today we are talking with Vanessa Morgan. Welcome, vanessa, to the podcast.

Speaker 1: 6:18

Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2: 6:20

I'm really excited about this topic because I think that and I've done this too here at the Curious Nron podcast, where we talk about attachment, but between parents and kids but I want to really focus on the attachment within a couple, because sometimes parents wonder the way that they are within their couple and how they are communicating together, conflicts together. Is that having an impact on their child? So we're going to have a look at that from an attachment perspective, as well as emotional development for our kids. So first I'd love to know what is attachment, so that we're all on the same page in terms of the definition.

Speaker 1: 6:56

Yeah. So attachment really started with the study of infants and how the infants attached to their caregivers, and this study evolved to include those behaviors that were observed with the infants and how they apply to adult relationships, and what the researchers found is that there's very kind of accurate behavior markers that are carried throughout the lifespan in terms of attachment. So attachment is basically a set of behaviors and responses learned in relationship for how to navigate them, both in seeking proximity so closeness and togetherness and in getting some autonomy space that kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 7:37

I think it's so important for us to kind of understand ourselves and I think attachment is a big part of that. Right, Like it might help us understand why we are, you know, behave in certain ways or expect certain things in relationships. Do you also agree, like, is this something that we should know about? Because I feel a lot of people are talking about it, but when I speak with friends they're not entirely sure of what it is and they kind of diagnose themselves with certain things and it becomes a little complicated. So are you seeing the same thing?

Speaker 1: 8:03

You know, I think we should know these things responsibly, meaning we always have to have a dose of curiosity and humility when trying to fit humans into boxes, Right, Like? The purpose of having these categories are really to kind of help inform treatment or help us think about the behavioral patterns that are common among people. But humans are so infinitely complex that it's really hard to say one thing. That's true even when it's about a group of people that have similar behavior pattern. Right, so it's like we. I want to be open to it. I think this information I mean it certainly changed my life and my relationship. So I think it's very powerful information. But I think we have to be responsible with how we consume it and how we also kind of think about our own attachment styles.

Speaker 2: 8:49

Right and not also label the person that we're with?

Speaker 1: 8:51

Yes, I think it goes both ways right. Yes, focus on our own or own attachment styles?

Speaker 2: 8:57

Yes, so, now that we have a little bit of an understanding of what it is, are you, can you break down a little bit about what the different attachment styles are? And, going back to what we just said, now, I don't want people to start labeling themselves and their partners, but I just really want them to have an understanding of, perhaps, why they're doing certain things within a relationship.

Speaker 1: 9:15

Yeah, so attachment categories are basically adaptations for the infant learns for their own kind of survival or how to kind of regulate their relationship with their caregiver. So it starts out as kind of like a signal response dynamic that conditions the infant how to respond. So if the infant signals distress and the caregiver responds sensitively, they develop what's called a secure attachment, so they trust that the person that there's you know, in relationship with, is going to show up for them, is going to be responsive, is going to accurately respond. People with insecure attachment styles, so people with anxious attachment styles, those that are very preoccupied with maintaining proximity and closeness and not getting abandoned, or avoidant individuals who kind of champion more autonomy and distance in the relationship.

Speaker 1: 10:07

These people had caregivers that were either inconsistent so they have a lot of feelings and a lot of, you know, fawning over the child at moments and then would be kind of abandoning and others or they were just kind of consistently distancing emotions weren't valued in the family. And then there is a fourth category which is called disorganized, which is kind of like hard to find any predictable set of behavior patterns, and this one is the one that's most associated with developmental trauma, although honestly I think that the more that we start learning about the brain and trauma and how to navigate it in therapy and psychotherapy, we're going to start seeing that all the kind of attachment adaptations do result from some kind of developmental trauma. But I mean, besides secure, Right.

Speaker 2: 10:49

So you mentioned that word regulate and I think it's really important for us to kind of talk about that just a moment, because you know we talk a lot about regulation here at Cure-Snearon and and how important that is and how we need to help and co-regulate with our child. So what's interesting to me is we're talking about this in childhood and now saying that it could trigger not trigger, but trickle into our adulthood, right. So are we, as adults, still looking towards the partner that we're with to regulate us or to help us regulate?

Speaker 1: 11:18

Yeah, so what's called co-regulation both regulating self and partner, adult, partner is part of what's called secure functioning or secure, healthy, secure attachment. So absolutely, I kind of think, as the parents in the household, as, like the master nervous system, right, the children are going to borrow from how regulated those those are, how well those nervous systems are doing, and learn from how their parents, you know, cope with feelings and emotions and help each other with those feelings and emotions. So absolutely, you know there's a correlation there.

Speaker 2: 11:51

So I'm thinking of parents listening to this now saying well, you know, I wonder what percentage of people actually have a secure attachment. And many parents that have spoken with me don't think that they do and feel that they struggle in their relationships, they struggle in regulating their emotions, they struggle in conflict resolution and and also, you know, trying to stay calm when their child isn't, and these, these are the the kind of topics that come up. So if a parent is listening to this and says, well, I am sure I don't have a secure attachment, am I, you know? Is this going to have a negative impact on my child? Do I have chances of developing a secure attachment with my child, or am I? Am I, is it doomed? You know, like we always go to the extreme.

Speaker 1: 12:34

Yeah, so I mean I, they're correlated, right? The parents attachment style and the child's attachment style? There is correlation. However, with awareness, conscious intervention, it's absolutely not determined that the child will have, you know, x attachment right. So it's, something that's very, with intention, shiftable, but it does impact. It really does impact how the quality of the bond, the quality of the bond between the parents, impacts the quality of the bond between the parent and child as well.

Speaker 2: 13:08

Right, that connection piece. Right, that's the and you mentioned sensitivity. I think it's so important for us to just highlight that for a second, because I think, as parents, we also think that you know, we need this sort of playbook and we need to follow so many different rules, but truly that sensitivity part, that connection part, is really important for our child.

Speaker 1: 13:26

Absolutely, and there's a term called like the window of engagement, right, it's like where you can be in your nervous system to be available to connect and you can't be, you know, too dysregulated, too upset to really be in a state of connection. And so that's why this learning of how to co-regulate and behave in a secure way with the partner is really helpful for these developing attachment systems within the children.

Speaker 2: 13:50

Right. That's why I think it's so important for us to kind of place more focus on parents, especially new parents. I think that we have such a reactive sort of healthcare system, and especially with mental health, and we wait right, like we. I remember my parent, my parenting classes here in Montreal, and it was just like how to hold a baby and what to do when they wake up and how to feed them which is important, obviously, but in retrospect I really wish that even myself, as a neuroscientist, I had studied emotions but never really applied it to myself. I'm not a therapist of any kind, I just studied in the lab and only after I had a child I realized, wow, I knew what to do for her, but I didn't know what to do for me, and nobody had really taught me that. I wish that there was some sort of conversation around that.

Speaker 1: 14:33

Yeah, I really hope kind of the mentality around couples therapy becomes more preventative and mainstream culture right, the people just kind of go and do checkups like people go to their annual physicals, hopefully right and they're doing the same kind of thing of how are we? Doing around conflict management? How's our communication? Just these skills that we don't necessarily learn in school and if we don't learn them growing up, in our families, growing up?

Speaker 1: 14:55

or even if we had great childhoods but like the fit between our parents' personality and our personality was off of it, like it doesn't have to be some huge trauma. It can be these little things that we just need to learn in adulthood how to be relational with ourselves and our children and ourselves.

Speaker 2: 15:11

Right, I agree, it's so important. So now I'd love to know we understand the attachment styles. What would that look like in terms of conflict with our partner, because I know that sometimes, even with myself? People who listen to this podcast know my father left when I was a kid. He left when I was very young. He was the kind of person that just left and didn't turn back and that, to me, caused a lot of trauma. And there was a lot more to that. He would drink a lot and it led to me.

Speaker 2: 15:38

I remember at the beginning of my marriage I struggled a lot with arguments because to me, an argument meant it was over and I had to really do a lot of work around that and I'm sharing this because I know many people might relate to that and it's not just how we're arguing, but it's what we're thinking and being able to take perspective and emotional perspective, and there's so much that happens when we're arguing with our partner. You have advice for some parents that are listening that really are struggling because they're having a lot of arguments with their partner and they don't feel like they're healthy arguments on both ends, both from both partners.

Speaker 1: 16:11

Yeah, there's so much you can do. So I think where you kind of started and the question is is talking about how our past informs our present kind of expectations and relationships, and I'm sure someone like you thinks a lot about neural patterning, right?

Speaker 1: 16:24

so if the neurons that fire together, the wire together. So if you had a lot of experiences and childhood that taught us it's not really safe to depend that someone's going to be there. Our attachment system is going to form to want to ensure a lot of proximity, so there's going to be a preoccupation.

Speaker 1: 16:38

So, of course, when you start to get dysregulated or in a fight or conflict with your husband, you start to feel threatened. You're going to go to that Automatic strategy. It's not going to be a conscious thought like, oh, I'm going to think that he's going to leave on purpose, you know it's like yeah an implicit thing that happens.

Speaker 1: 16:54

So how you can begin to disrupt this is by developing more mindful awareness around some of that Patterning and some of those beliefs and relationships. That's kind of the first step is. A lot of times people over focus on their partner and what their partner is doing, and that's because they're longing for a corrective experience, right?

Speaker 2: 17:11

that inner kiddo.

Speaker 1: 17:13

Once to have that stable attachment figure that doesn't leave so badly, right. But unless their wise adult self can come and kind of articulate that and help them calm down and say in a way that it's relational to their partner, it's just going to scare the partner off because they're like what is this unconscious stuff about?

Speaker 2: 17:29

right, like this is just about Socks or about this you know, and so they don't get what it means to their partner.

Speaker 1: 17:37

Necessarily they just become reactive back and forth. So I would say stop the reactive cycle, try to become more conscious of the patterns. Patterns don't lie right. Patterns are predictable. And so when you can kind of start noticing, okay, when I do this, then they do that, then you can really start to see where you may have some Some change to do or some places you can intervene and behave differently, rather than just falling in the same cycles over and over.

Speaker 2: 18:02

I Would say even a cycle that we have to think of is when I think this, I say this or I act this way, right, like for me was more of that my thoughts, you know, and we we. I like to think about it with your thoughts, you are, your feelings and your thoughts and your behavior, how they're connected, and when we kind of see that image in our mind of that connection, it helps us, because sometimes it's like this thought that lasted one second and that leads to us feeling a certain way, even if the person didn't say anything. But we might have a certain feeling or a thought that leads to us saying something and we're like, oh, I didn't mean that. And then the person's like, why didn't mean it that way? And then you're stuck in this cycle as well.

Speaker 2: 18:38

So there's so many different cycles that we can get stuck in. How, if the person you know I'm thinking even People that reach out to me that feel that their partner doesn't have insight, for example, partners who are very close with in terms of their emotions and feel that you know they're not sharing their emotions. Or you know that partner that says I'm fine when they're clearly not. Or the partner that lashes out so quickly there's so many different types of partners that we can have, how do we and I love that you said kind of focusing on ourselves, so how do we Start that reflection piece if maybe we don't have insight yet, right, like maybe that somebody who's listening to this says well, I know that I, you know, yell very quickly, I know that I feel a certain way, but I don't know how to identify where that problem is by where, what the the set of beliefs are.

Speaker 2: 19:28

They're informing that reactivity or right, like if we're reflecting on this. I love that piece that we have to start like thinking about what's going on and stopping and looking back and saying why did I say this or why did I do this? But how is that how you begin, you know? Do you just think about it that way, or are there certain questions that you should be asking yourself?

Speaker 1: 19:47

I think there's several ways. I mean, one way that comes to mind is really starting with like okay, what am I needing in this scenario? Like why even the simple option. I do this in my Relationship with my husband.

Speaker 1: 19:56

Now I play out the scenario before I say something I think, okay, how am I hoping he's gonna respond? Do I want empathy from him? Okay, then I know it needs to come out like this, because if it comes out critically, it's it's probably not gonna solicit the empathy that I'm wanting, right? So first I try to check in with right, what's my need in this and how do I want to show up and take care of myself around that? Right?

Speaker 1: 20:18

And so often people kind of are abandoning their own needs by bringing things with their partner in an overly Aggressive or unprocessed way, right? So I say the first pieces think about your needs. The second piece is start paying attention to the body. I you know it really changed my practice a lot when I started helping Couples shoot into their body and what the different sensations meant to them, because oftentimes people are Disconnected from their intellectual understanding of an emotion, but they can still have a felt sense of it in their body. So that's a really good port of entry into beginning to understand our feelings and our emotions. Right, because emotions are the thing that teaches what our needs are so if we're cut off from our emotions.

Speaker 1: 20:58

We're not gonna know what our needs are, and all of this kind of has to get worked out before we bring it to our partner, is to get metabolized in advance. Otherwise, you know, things can go haywire very quickly. So taking time you know if I had to say that. A third thing about it is really slowing down and Taking time and being very intentional With why you're saying what you're saying, what the need behind it is and how your particular person is gonna hear it.

Speaker 2: 21:24

Right, I I love these three pieces of advice and I think it's really important to focus on those needs. I say this to parents when they're with their child that when you actually think about your needs, you kind of respond to your child rather than react I like to use those two words. I just find that there's a big difference, and that's what I learned myself too, and I feel that when you're thinking a little bit more, there's a pause that naturally happens. Instead of just saying something and saying, well, I didn't mean to say that or I didn't mean to do that, there's that pause, and that pause, to me, is critical, so important. Okay, so then I I think that a parent hearing this now Really has some good advice that they can start applying, and I know that they think about the child that's watching and, with what you just said, I think that's modeling really important skills for our own kids, right when it comes to their emotional learning.

Speaker 2: 22:13

Is there? I guess some parents worry that arguing itself is bad for their kids, is it? And is there? I know we hear about repair a lot, but we don't talk enough about like what it looks like. So if there are lots of arguments in a home right now is this. I'm gonna use the word damaging. I don't like using that word, but it comes up in email, so is it damaging a child's emotional development and their attachment?

Speaker 1: 22:36

I want to kind of like start with priming this is I don't think that parents in general need more things to feel guilty about. So I don't want to say yes, you're damaging your child and being a farmer but.

Speaker 1: 22:50

But I have to be truthful. And then, yes, of course, children, you don't even have to be arguing. Like any discord in the relationship Children pick up on, right, it's true, unconsciously right. So it's not about like these big arguments. It's more about the state of safety and connection in the marriage, because I don't want couples to also think like, oh, what's wrong, as we're not arguing and the kids don't know. That's also confusing for them because they can feel that some things off but they have no narrative for what's going on right.

Speaker 1: 23:18

So I think I want to make the focus more about, you know, kind of the state, the global state of the parents relationship, than than the arguing. But certainly we know that that loud arguing, scary arguing, can cause a traumatic response and affect the attachments System in children for sure. So, you know, yeah, arguing is on the scale. It's all kind of relative. Avoid it absolutely when possible. Don't beat yourself up when it happens, but help your kids make sense of this. If it's a scary experience, right? So?

Speaker 1: 23:46

yeah if it does happen in front of them, you would just want to go back and narrate like hey, mom and dad weren't agreeing on that. And then we raised our voice and I thought about how that was for you and maybe that was scary and maybe your kids kind of like, you know, not ready to talk about it, but just any little bit of narration. You don't have to bring them into the adult details especially, actually don't, right?

Speaker 1: 24:06

But just provide a little narration of like you know, we fought and we're gonna work it out and everything's okay. Like that kind of thing is how I think you would scaffold a Repair in front of a child around the argument, right.

Speaker 2: 24:21

So repair again. That was the second part of my question, just reminding me it was really about what to do when it happened. So it's what you're from what you just said. It is really important for us to go back and talk to our child because I think sometimes as parents we don't want to like Stir it up again, right, like maybe our child was upset during that time, maybe we don't even want to talk about it. But it is important to come back and just make sure our child is okay.

Speaker 1: 24:43

Yes, that cohesive narrative is actually what people find is a protective factor in developing secure attachment. If kids can have kind of a narrative of the things even though didn't go well in childhood, but they didn't feel alone in it and they had, you know, an adult that kind of understood them, they developed this kind of cohesive narrative and so that's what you want to build in In terms of helping got it sense of these kind of things.

Speaker 2: 25:06

With what you just said. I'm thinking about the emails I get specifically from Parents who feel that the environment is not safe, and you mentioned that word safe. I just want to touch on that because the reality is that not every home is safe for kids and you know this does exist. So if a parent is listening to this and feels that their home isn't safe, what that? What you just said, that connection piece can that be a protective factor if the parent can't get out of that environment?

Speaker 1: 25:30

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 25:32

So if it's just, not logistically possible you know, I don't. It's such a broad term like not safe, so I don't know if there's physical danger right Like if there's a physical right of course you got to really try to prioritize Leaving, but I understand the reality is that like you know, there's all sorts of gray and sometimes you can't you know, and so absolutely what you can do is still try to regulate yourself the best that you can and and give them tools.

Speaker 2: 25:59

Right, thank you. I had to mention that because I know that you know it's not the reality in all the home. So, you know, I think it's really important for couples to to think about this and I'm hoping that couples are listening to this together. If there's some resistance, you know you mentioned to start the work on yourself. If you are doing that work but you still feel that you're in a relationship where that person perhaps is Disrespectful or mean or verbally or abusive of any or any kind of abuse, doing the work on yourself won't completely change that environment. How do you have this very delicate and complicated conversation with a partner that you feel truly needs to start doing some of this?

Speaker 1: 26:37

The question is like how to motivate your partner to or have, yeah, or have at least start the conversation right, Because this will be a very tricky conversation you don't want to point fingers and say you need to change because that I'm assuming that's not the best way to approach it.

Speaker 2: 26:49

Yeah, I think that's a good question. I'm assuming that's not the best way to approach it.

Speaker 1: 26:55

Yeah, yeah, you know I like to think With couples a lot about how to have loving boundaries and how to stand up for themselves with love and compassion right. Normally people kind of wait till they're in a capacity and they're, you know it's too far gone before they really start to get Help in learning how to have an appropriate boundary. So I think like the first thing I would encourage people to do is just really start Studying boundaries and how to have boundaries and figure out where they have influence in their life and where they don't. It's hard to get like a specific example of how right, there's so many factors and why people can be resistant to couples there.

Speaker 1: 27:34

But I would say like, even if someone's partners resistant to couples therapy sometimes just the act of the, the partner, that's kind of like wanting more emotional availability, when they can learn to just kind of consistently set loving boundaries for themselves, like hey, I'm not willing to talk with you like that, let me know when you're ready to calm down so I can hear what you have to say, right? So it's like this boundary but I'm not gonna fight with you anymore. But when you want to talk to me in a more calm way, I'm absolutely here to hear your needs and perspective, right? So there's so much power and kind of little things like that, is that?

Speaker 2: 28:07

answer the question. Yeah, exactly, oh yeah, and I think boundaries are really hard for many of us. I personally just started working on boundaries, like when I was in my late 30s, and to me that was never something that crossed my mind. If somebody's hearing this and thinking I need to start working on my boundaries, it's hard because the other it. What I've learned is, whenever I set a boundary not with my partner, but usually family members it seems to make them uncomfortable. Right, and that's what I had to learn to deal with is seeing that that person's not happy with that boundary and not feeling guilty about it. Does the same thing happen within a relationship sometimes when you set that boundary?

Speaker 1: 28:42

Absolutely. If people kind of have some codependent tendencies or really, you know, fear around setting boundaries or didn't get, you know people who had tend to have that more preoccupied attachment that mean that want to maintain closeness and the relationship tend to have a bit more diffuse boundaries, because that's that needed adaptation To stay close right, and so there is gonna be a learning curve and a lot of times Partners respond poorly because they're like what's this? Like you never did that before, I Like you know it comes out of nowhere.

Speaker 1: 29:11

Yeah, but comes out of nowhere. Or the people when they have anxiety, when they set boundaries because they don't know how to do it, can often do it like yeah, clinkly or aggressively, you know.

Speaker 1: 29:19

So sometimes it's just nice to name hey, I'm trying to set a boundary, I'm I maybe I'm not doing it in the most relational way, but my intention isn't to hurt you, my intention is to just protect myself. You know, just kind of like narrating that, like I'm trying to do this. Well, this is hard for me to take that pressure. I'm having to know how to set a boundary perfectly without upsetting anybody. You know, I I get that yeah, relationships should feel like a team sport.

Speaker 2: 29:43

Yes, definitely, and you know, our needs don't disappear as well when we become, you know, somebody's partner or even a parent. I think, as parents, we tend to feel that our needs now don't really matter and it's all about our, you know, our kids and our partner. But our needs still matter and we need to make sure that you brought that up, you know, in terms of the conflict itself and I think it's so interesting because we can't forget our needs, whether it's with our partner or with our kids. Do you see that a lot in your practice in terms of people just having forgotten, like, what they need and what matters to them?

Speaker 1: 30:16

Yeah, absolutely. And then again it sends back to this relationship with their emotions, right, a lot of people have certain emotions that they're okay with feeling, like some people are fine feeling anger, but you know, hopelessness or despair not so much. Other people are very fine feeling kind of sad and melancholy, but they're not comfortable with their anger. And so oftentimes when we have a compromised relationship with feelings, that then plays out in our relationships because we don't have all the information we need about our needs right, because we're cut off from like. Like the anger is the emotion that allows us to know when a boundary needs to be set right.

Speaker 2: 30:52

But if we're cut off?

Speaker 1: 30:52

from our anger. How are you going to know to set a boundary? So there's a correlation there.

Speaker 2: 30:59

Yeah, let's, let's move on a little bit into work, like towards the emotions part, because I think that's an important thing. I had a podcast episode where I just entertained the idea of what if the words anxiety or anger or sadness that didn't exist. How would you describe that feeling? Because I agree with what you said at the beginning where we are disconnected from what it feels internally and we have these labels and we're teaching this to our kids. But that label does it really matter if you don't know what it feels like for you? Right? If you can't tell the difference between certain emotions?

Speaker 2: 31:31

Are you seeing a lot of this as well in terms of you know even the word stress, like I tend to tell parents, switch that to what it really means. Or you overwhelmed with work. You know a lot of parents talk about work and life balance. I don't think that exists, but I do think that we have to kind of find a way to you know, one week might be, you know, more heavily weighing towards work because you have a deadline, and the other week you might want to spend more time with your kids, or maybe somebody's child is sick and you have to put work to the side. All this to say I think we are disconnected, as you said, with the internal state of that emotion. How do we begin that work if you know, we grew up in an environment where we learned to push our emotions away, which probably led to the fact that we can't, you know, figure out what that emotion is deep inside, or that feeling? How do we start that kind of work to become more attuned with our emotions?

Speaker 1: 32:19

Great question. So again, I think it's one is ways through the body, right. The other way is through kind of mindful journaling, so kind of when you wake up in the morning. A lot of times people have, you know, dreams about things that are on their mind, or so one practice that you can do is just kind of start in the morning without having any real set agenda about what you're going to write about, just whatever starts coming to your mind, and that's a good way to start seeing some themes of things in your life about, maybe you know, where you're feeling a little lonely or a little need of more support, that kind of thing.

Speaker 1: 32:53

I would look at where the conflict is in your relationships. Right, it's like when you're resentful that your spouse doesn't do XYZ. You know that is often an indication that there's a need there not being met.

Speaker 1: 33:05

So we'll get kind of strong emotional reactions to certain things. When you feel triggered, understand like, okay, why am I feeling trigger on this? I probably have a need for safety or a need for clarity or predictability, you know like. So just starting to try to understand when we get in these really intense emotional states the meaning that we're making of the situation around us and then also kind of the meaning that we're making like of our own ability to take care of ourselves in that circumstance.

Speaker 2: 33:36

Right, I get that. I love that. Now, you know, maybe a parent is listening to this and says, okay, what can I start tomorrow? You've mentioned reflection a lot and our needs, so what would you say are like two or three things that can make a really big difference in somebody's life if they start doing these three things, or two, three things tomorrow?

Speaker 1: 33:55

Well, what I would say is that if we're particularly focusing on couples, right regardless of your attachment style, you can learn to function as though you had a great childhood and the secure attachment you just kind of have to learn what the discrete behaviors are.

Speaker 1: 34:08

So when couples have an insecure attachment, they tend to fall into what's called one person system. During conflict right, they are only able to kind of think of their own state. They're not able to think of their state and how they're coming across to their partner and what might be going on for their partner.

Speaker 1: 34:26

So the first thing that couples can do is really begin to learn you know, from either reading a book or getting a couple's therapist or something what these secure, functioning behaviors are, and then making sure that their marriage is kind of running according to these principles.

Speaker 2: 34:41

Got it. That's a good place to start, I think. So what are some of these secure functions?

Speaker 1: 34:46

So couples that can compromise, right. So when you can say, here's my need, what's your need, how are we going to make this work for both of us, when, when or no deal, that's a secure, functioning thing, good co -regulation. So both of your ability to kind of say, hey, you know what, I'm too upset right now to talk about this. I'm going to come back to you when I'm calm and we'll talk about it then, and also your ability to say, oh, sweetie, you look, you look like I just, you know, hurt your feelings, right like see your partner and give them empathy.

Speaker 1: 35:18

If those are two really important pieces of co-regulation. So I would say that is also another feature of secure functioning is co-regulation and collaboration working together.

Speaker 2: 35:29

It's interesting, as you're saying this, I keep thinking about, like parents with their kids, and it's the same thing, right, what we want to do with our kids, it doesn't disappear once we're adults. We want that from our partners and we need to give that to our partners as well.

Speaker 1: 35:43

We. It's I want to say like the attachment relationship absolutely the same. It's the same regions of the brain. They're firing, you know it is. There's a lot of overlap, but there's a nuance difference in adult relationships that we need to bring like. Parent-child relationships are unilateral. We are all accepting of our children just as they are right. We may correct the behavior, but there's this unconditional love. Adult relationships need to have a bit more of an era of personal responsibility to them. I'm my own sovereign being. I don't expect I don't put all the weight of my happiness on you, but I'm going to do my part and I'm going to care about your experience as well. And so I think they are the same, but they are different as well, and I want to make it. Just take care of that.

Speaker 2: 36:25

Yeah, you know, you just said like I putting all your happiness, you know, on that person, or it just made me think of a book Amy Moran has. I think it's 13 things strong, mentally strong couples don't do, and one of the parts of it, like part of her book, spoke about like sometimes we tend to put that onus on our partner to make us happy. Do you see that a lot as well with with relationships?

Speaker 1: 36:50

Absolutely that people kind of. That's another feature of insecure attachment.

Speaker 1: 36:55

Right Is this self activation piece is that there's a you know, when you don't kind of have the proper two minute or scaffolding from a parent growing up, it's harder to know how to meet your own needs right, and so there's a breakdown in that agency or self activation relationships. We kind of see people with their aggressibility to take care of themselves when they have insecure functioning. But you can totally learn in adulthood Like that's the great thing that I love about what I do is that like there's no need to be alarmed about these things. We have enough science now and practitioners that know what they're doing now to really help couples move from these stuck states to to functioning in a way that's you know best for the whole family.

Speaker 2: 37:35

Right, right, and that word that you had used before, like disrupting these cycles. I love that word because it's not just about breaking them, but you're disrupting them. It shows us that we have the ability to do that and I think that word is really empowering If we, you know, move forward with saying, you know, or questioning ourselves and saying how can I disrupt this, how can I change this pattern that we're in? Because our brain, you know it's, it predicts certain things. You mentioned this unconscious part of it and it's because it's predicting. And that comes back to our childhood. And, you know, some parents that I've spoken with feel that you know, why do I need to address my childhood? Or some parents have said I had a great childhood. Why do I need to address that? But great still doesn't mean that you don't have to look back into your past to understand how or why you're responding in a certain way as an adult, right?

Speaker 1: 38:26

Absolutely yes. I always tell parents like the last thing you want to leave your child as a legacy is your own unhealed trauma. Like it is very important, as as parents, that we kind of look at. You know, I know that I don't want to idealize people with secure attachment. I personally don't think that anyone came out of childhood unscathed. That like there's an heavily some bully that mess with you or you know, I have yet to meet a person that just had like a perfect child, that didn't leave them with some triggers in adulthood, but

Speaker 1: 38:54

even if they exist, they're still going to have stressors in life that require them to kind of be resilient and look at how your brain can kind of, in an effort to protect you, sometimes dumps the gun and think that things are familiar, based on old trauma, when they are not right. So I think it's like everybody has to do this work to an extent. There's no escaping it. If you're, if you're alive, you got some work to do.

Speaker 2: 39:21

And you're right about the protection piece. Our brain is trying to do that and that's why we're not conscious of why we react certain ways sometimes, because our brain just goes into that default mode and that like pattern and prediction of when this happens or this is said I need to protect Cindy, for whatever reason. Right, like that's how the brain functions. So it's truly fascinating the work that you do and I really appreciate that you took some time to talk with us today. Do you have any courses or is there a way for people to reach you? An Instagram account that you can share, and we'll put all the links in our show notes today.

Speaker 1: 39:51

Yes, I'm a website and Instagram account that I will give to you to link.

Speaker 2: 39:57

I guess, to close our conversation, is there something you feel within attachment that people don't talk about enough? You know we've talked about different styles and I see lots about that, but is there that one missing piece that you feel, even on social media or online, that nobody is talking about that and they, we could change somebody's life if they just knew that one piece.

Speaker 1: 40:16

You know, the thing that I really started thinking about with attachment and trauma lately is this newer model.

Speaker 1: 40:21

I don't know how familiar you are with IFS, but it's this idea that we all have these sub personalities or parts within us, right, interesting the parts kind of take over as our defenses and help us navigate these, these stressors, right. And so, instead of looking at these adaptations as bad parts, right, I like to encourage people to look at them as protective parts that are maybe misunderstood or really relegated to an extreme role that if they were more understood and there was more mindfulness around kind of the experience of them, then there would be less of a need for that part to act in such an extreme role. And so I think the more that people can have openness, curiosity, compassion for their and their partner's trigger, the quicker that people can kind of heal that, rather than just resisting it and judging like I need to be securely attached to the perfect, just, kind of be open to these, these adaptations and these perceived flaws and wonder why they're here and how we can get to know them better.

Speaker 2: 41:22

When you're saying this, I'm thinking of those children who are neurodivergent and feel that they are different. I feel that it's the same thing, right, it's the more we can get to know ourselves and learn how we get curious about, how we learn how we speak to people, how we deal in social situations, the better we can do it, as best as we can, and that's okay. And it seems that you're saying something very similar when it comes to you know relationships and getting to know ourselves.

Speaker 1: 41:47

Yes, compassionate curiosity really changes the game.

Speaker 2: 41:51

Right, Thank you. That is everything that Kyrsner on is based on curiosity first which is why it's called Kyrsner on and the compassion piece for ourselves and for children. So what a way to end it. Thank you so much, Vanessa. I appreciate everything that you do and I can't wait for everybody to follow you on.

Speaker 1: 42:04

Thank you Thanks so much for having me.