Everything you need to know before, during and after a divorce to support your child with Dr. Tamara Soles

As a child of divorce, I know that it can be very difficult to go through. I have been getting lots of emails around this and so I asked my dear friend Dr. Tamara Soles to join me today.

We break down divorce into before, during and after so that you have all the tips and advice you need to navigate this in a way that is best for you and your child.

We discuss arguing in front of your child, what repair looks like, how to talk to your kids and how to co-parent.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

When a divorce happens, it takes on average two to four years for a newly constructed family to find some settled safe ground.

Speaker 2: 0:20

Hello, my dear friend, welcome back to another episode of the Curious Neuron podcast. My name is Cindy and I am your host. I am a mom of three from Montreal, canada, and I have a PhD in neuroscience, so if you are new here, welcome. We are all about sharing the science that will support you and your well-being as a parent or caregiver, because I know that it's not easy and I feel that there's a lot out there telling us how to parent. This is not the place. This is not the place that tells you what to do exactly you know, with your child and what you're doing wrong. But I want to share the science that supports your well-being, because if we are not well as parents and caregivers, it's very hard to take care of our children. So today we are focusing on divorce, because I've been getting tons of questions. So even if you're not thinking about going through a divorce right now, we do cover arguing and what that looks like and what repair looks like in front of your child. So you do want to listen to at least half of this episode. It's bear with me, but if you are thinking about divorce or if you are going through a divorce, we are going to divide this episode into the before, during and after divorce, so that way you know exactly what to do depending on which stage you're in and how to support your child as well as yourself. I have invited a dear friend of mine who's also an advisor to Kira Sterron. Her name is Dr Tamara Soles. She's a psychologist from Montreal and I absolutely love everything that she shares and her presence is so calming, so I'm glad that she agreed to join me for this episode.

Speaker 2: 1:50

Before we begin, as always, I do want to thank the Tannenbaum Open Science Institute, as well as the McConnell Foundation, because without these two organizations, this podcast would not be possible. I can do it all on my own. I have an amazing team, people that are editing the podcast, and that funding allows me to have those people, and that's why the podcast is here. So thank you to Claudia and Sadie for supporting and what I do and helping me podcast. Make sure you've clicked that button and that you leave a rating and write a review if possible, because the more of those ratings and reviews that we have even if you just rate it on five stars or if you take the moment or the time to write a review this helps the podcast continue. I can't get that funding without all of these metrics. And share the podcast with a friend. If you've been enjoying it, let them know about it. Share it on a Facebook page. Help me get more listeners and downloads, because that will definitely allow the podcast to continue.

Speaker 2: 2:51

I was in California last week and had an amazing time with preschool families. They welcomed me with open arms and I had a great workshop with the parents there at that preschool. So if you do want a workshop at your school, you can email me at info at kirstenroncom or at your workplace as well. Some companies are allowing some of these lunchtime talks and I've been doing that as well, so it's really important that I think that we continue supporting parents in any way possible. Speaking of that, I've been getting lots of emails around stress and parents struggling with stress and knowing that it trickles down to their child. Seeing it right, because on the days that you feel stressed, you notice that your child's behavior is a little different, and so I decided to give a free workshop this coming Wednesday, may 8th.

Speaker 2: 3:38

There is no replay, but it's going to be with Dr Michelle Kamboulis, who was a guest before on the Cures Neuron podcast. She um supports parents and anybody with uh, meditation and mindfulness and does it in such an amazing way that I knew, when I was going to cover her stress, that I needed to have her. So you don't want to miss that. She has an amazing book as well and we're going to share all of that on Wednesday. It is free. So come and join, come relax. It's at lunchtime, at 12 on May 8th. So the link is in the show notes so that you can register.

Speaker 2: 4:13

And if you don't have time to join and you're looking for ways to manage stress and manage everything that's going on in your life, I do have a reflective parent journal. The link is in the show notes and remember, if you do leave a rating and review, you have to write a review and you send me a screenshot at info at curesnoncom. I will give you a $10 coupon for my journal. It is a hundred pages and what it does is that it allows you to pick certain sections. So, for example, if you are struggling with work-life balance or if you are struggling with your relationship or your self-care, then you just go into that section and there are reflection prompts that can help you to work through that and see what you need to focus on and how you can help yourself in that area particularly, so it's definitely worth it. With the $10 off, it comes out to $19.99. So the link is in the show notes as well, and send me an email.

Speaker 2: 5:04

Okay, we're done. No more housekeeping. I promise it is an important episode and I enjoyed my conversation with Tamara and I hope you do as well, and so, my dear friend, I hope you enjoy my conversation with psychologist Dr Tamara Soles. Hi everyone and welcome back, and, as I said at the beginning, I'm joined with not just a special guest, but somebody who's I think this is your third time returning Tamara, and that makes you the official person who has come to this podcast the most, which I love, so welcome back, thank you.

Speaker 1: 5:35

I'm honored to be here again and I always love talking to you.

Speaker 2: 5:39

You know, today we're going to talk about a topic that's just been popping up in my DMs, even on emails from people all around the world asking questions about divorce.

Speaker 2: 5:51

So I think it's time that we address this question and I thought you'd be the best one to have this conversation around. So I think at first, I'm a child of divorce. My parents got divorced when I was young, and the reason why I want to break it down this way is because of what I experienced and because of the questions that are coming in as well, where I see it as the before the divorce, during a divorce and after, and that there are lots of ways that we can be more mindful of what's happening with our children and how we're, sort of as a family, navigating all of these difficulties. So let's begin with that parent who is having a lot more heated discussions and arguments with their partner, and their kids are around. The question I get from parents is is it bad to have an argument in front of our children, and where is the line in terms of how often it's happening that can actually have an impact on our kids?

Speaker 1: 6:42

It's a great question. I'm glad we started there, cindy, because arguing and conflict is really at the core of the outcomes for kids who experience divorce, and I'm a child of divorce also, so I also have personal experience in this area. What I would say is not all arguing in front of your children is a bad thing, right. It really depends on how we argue and how we disagree with our partners, and so I tend to think about it as conflict more than arguing. So if we are engaged in a discussion, and even if it's a slightly heated discussion or voices are raised a bit, that's okay. Kids are used to that in many families, but it's how we do it. Are we insulting our partners? Are we swearing or name-calling? Are we demonstrating good coping strategies while in the midst of an argument Is somebody saying I need to cool down for a minute, I need to just, you know, get some water. Let's talk about this productively versus just sort of exploding in the house.

Speaker 1: 7:48

So the quality of the argument is important, but also the repair. So I know for a lot of families, I mean, arguments happen it's common in partnerships but do the children actually see the partner's repair afterwards? See the partners repair afterwards? So I just love the idea of having parents, even if they've already kind of repaired privately, doing that again in front of your children so they can see how they came back together afterwards is important Because if they, you know, in their relationships they're going to have disagreements, and it's good modeling for them to see how to work through these and it helps them feel safe and secure knowing how their parents come back together. So definitely in that pre phase the type of argument is important and the type of repair that we see.

Speaker 2: 8:38

For somebody who is not sure what repair looks like. Is it simply a hug? Is it just showing that you're talking to each other and you're not avoiding each other? Is that what you want them to see?

Speaker 1: 8:49

Yes, although I'd like it to go even further than that if possible. You know something as explicit. As you know, I'm glad that we took a break from the conversation last night because when we came back to it we were able to handle it much more calmly or I really appreciated that you heard my side, even though it didn't seem to make sense to you at the time. So, really being explicit about how we kind of got through it and how we kind of worked through or problem solved that argument or disagreement.

Speaker 2: 9:19

Got it and I love how it's just showing that you've taken perhaps that person's perspective, or you've thought about it or you've validated the emotion that person had in that argument, and you're doing that in front of the child. I love that aspect and it's really important.

Speaker 1: 9:31

Yeah, it's not about like congrats on winning that argument last night it's really about like how did we get through that right? How did we come to some sort of reconnection with each other and just showing that to your children?

Speaker 2: 9:45

What if a child is questioning the frequency of an argument? What if they're worrying about that? And perhaps they have friends who have divorced parents, or perhaps they're just not used to seeing that. It's possible that you never argued and all of a sudden things aren't going well. If they do ask you are you getting a divorce? Or if they do say, is everything okay? Where's the line between how honest you can be in that moment and also not hiding things from them?

Speaker 1: 10:12

Yes, my approach with every topic and I'm sure we've talked about this before too is always deliver the truth in the developmentally appropriate kernel of information. So I wouldn't go so far as saying, yes, you know, our marriage is unstable. We don't know where we're heading. But first start with curiosity. Like it sounds like you're noticing that we're arguing quite a bit. Tell me more about what you've noticed or how you've been feeling Like. Really try to just use that as an opportunity to hear from your child. And if they do say something like that, I would absolutely say I am so glad that you're able to tell me this. Right, and that can be a hard thing to say because I know for many parents, when they've had this discussion come up, their immediate reaction is guilt because they might have thought they were doing a better job of hiding it or that their child wasn't noticing. But rather than getting stuck in that guilt, just really trying to embrace the open communication that your child is showing. And just, you know, again, take that as an opportunity to dive into how they're feeling about it. Again, take that as an opportunity to dive into how they're feeling about it.

Speaker 1: 11:26

But I might say something along the lines of yes, you're noticing that we have been struggling a little bit more lately and that we've been arguing a bit more. And then I would add you know this is something that we're working on right. We are working on it together. We're trying to figure it out. We're trying to figure out why we've been arguing so much. We're trying to find better solutions. Maybe, if you're getting help or support from outside, you could be open about that. We're actually going to meet with somebody. Try to help us figure out why we're arguing so much. So that's the sort of direct, honest response that I would give that really focuses on centering their feelings, the openness that you want from them and what you're doing about it as a couple.

Speaker 2: 12:03

I love that you began with asking them what they've noticed, because we might think they've noticed a certain aspect of it, but to them and from their point of view, they might have noticed something different. So you're going to start off by having a different conversation if you just if you don't ask them what they've been, you know, noticing around the home.

Speaker 1: 12:19

Exactly Right, exactly, yeah. We get, we make assumptions sometimes and we could be really off base, so we just want to go with what they're bringing to the conversation.

Speaker 2: 12:28

And it's also an important reminder, with what you just said, that we think sometimes that we're hiding things really well. I've spoken about this in terms of our emotions, right, and how kids will pick up on the subtleties and we're like how did, how did you, how did you notice this? How did you know? I was mad, you know, I had a smile on my face and everything's fine, but they notice a difference in her tone and how we're responding to them. So we do have to be honest with that. I don't think the goal is to pretend that everything is okay when things are not Exactly. That's it.

Speaker 1: 12:56

But you always want to anchor that in something that's being done about it so that your child's security feels stable, right. So you just have to come back to whether it's seeking help or whether it's that we're discussing this together to try to figure it out. There needs to be some anchor in what you're doing to try to help it.

Speaker 2: 13:15

What comes to mind when I'm thinking of this parent that's struggling with their divorce, or both parents struggling with their divorce, is that sometimes the capacity to support our child with their emotions and their needs is much lower because we're going through so much and even just having one argument. When it happens here in my home, it's heavy, it's hard because it's something that you would want to deal with alone. But now you're shifting between like I'm really mad at you to okay, let's, let's be a team now and get this over with, and, like you know, get, not get. Not get this over with, but get through this day together so we can have the discussion later. But you haven't finished that discussion. So just an argument itself is hard. I can't imagine being in a situation when it's happening very often and becoming more intense. What advice can you have for that parent who just feels that they're not connecting with their child anymore, they're not present and they're struggling because of these situations in their home? What can they do to sort of nurture themselves, I guess, or support themselves?

Speaker 1: 14:13

through this. So, first of all, having some self-compassion, because we can't be expected to show up in the ways that we typically would with our children, with ourselves, in our work environments, with our friends, when we're going through something so significant as some escalated conflict or some marital disruption or some disruption in your partnership. So having some self-compassion and recognizing that is important. And if it really is an ongoing thing, then I would also look at are there other ways that you can kind of supplement your child's support during that time? Like maybe they spend a little bit of extra time with grandma, if grandma's around, or with an extended family member, or leaning on some friends to have them. You know, have your children over for dinner a little bit more often or something. So that's one element of it over for dinner a little bit more often, or something. So that's one element of it.

Speaker 1: 15:06

The other element that I am thinking about is that rituals themselves can be so comforting, and I always advocate for having rituals with your children and I think even for me, if I'm having a hard day by the time we get to certain rituals in our day, there's something that is so comforting for those rituals, even for me, even though they were, in theory, designed for my children. So, allowing yourself that moment to just rest in that ritual, whether it's a goodnight ritual, whether it's something that you say or something you do together, you know just being able to, like I said, rest in that ritual so that you can take a moment for yourself too.

Speaker 2: 15:45

I think that's a really first, the self-compassion piece and the ritual. It's just kind of disconnecting to connect in that moment, Right, and it just feels good to be able to do that for a tiny little bit. Now I'm also. I want to think of the parent that is going through this very difficult moment and having lots of conflicts and wondering is it worth staying in this for my children, or do I leave this person that I perhaps have distanced myself from or feel that it's not that relationship that I wanted anymore? But now that parent hesitates about the impact on their child if they do get divorced, what would you offer in terms of advice for that parent who's questioning but just wanting to stay for the family?

Speaker 1: 16:27

Yeah, I find so many parents in that situation and it's not an easy situation because there are so many factors to weigh right and obviously parents are trying to put their children's needs ahead of everything else. But there is a lot to consider, and it's not just the level of conflict, but also what does modeling a healthy relationship look like? And even if you navigate a relationship conflict-free per se but it's lacking, what a loving relationship should look like, that also has an impact on your child. So there's a lot of things to consider. I would recommend somebody consult with somebody to really think through what are the considerations, what is, you know, one's anxiety versus what we know about you know can actually help or hinder a situation.

Speaker 1: 17:23

But taking time to kind of think that through and recognize that that might be something that is worth exploring, either with a therapist or in couples therapy, because many partnerships and relationships, I mean, they all go through ups and downs and they all go through challenging periods, some more intense than others. And is this a challenging period or is this something that you know is bigger, that needs to be fixed or ended? But also, looking at in the process, is there anything that you can do for yourself as an individual. That might be bringing your mental health back to a place that's a bit more stable. So, making sure that we kind of look at it from all angles, look at it with support and recognize that there's no one right answer for any family right.

Speaker 1: 18:15

It isn't always better for children to have parents who remain in a relationship if it's not a healthy relationship in a relationship if it's not a healthy relationship. But it's not always better for a child to be in a co-parenting relationship, if you know, depending on the circumstances. So there's no one right answer. But I would just recommend, as I said, really reflecting on what you can do to impact your own mental health, what you can do to explore options in terms of your relationship and even if you're with a partner who isn't willing to consider couples therapy, it can be very helpful to see somebody on your own to try to help you figure out what makes sense as a next step for you as a parent and for your children.

Speaker 2: 19:00

I think that last piece is really interesting because some parents feel that they have to go to therapy together and, yes, there's often a partner that doesn't want to go to therapy. One email that has been coming in lately is a mother or mothers who want to leave their partner, but are worried about one not seeing their kids. It breaks their heart not to see them for a long, you know an extended period of time, but also struggling with finances and wondering how will I be able to support my family alone and can I do it? So I need to stay in the relationship in order to do that, but maybe starting with the therapy for yourself and figuring out like how you could first stabilize yourself and work on yourself to go through this, if you do go through this.

Speaker 1: 19:43

That's right. That's exactly that, you know. The considerations are generally not just about children. There's huge financial elements of it.

Speaker 1: 19:51

There are a lot of logistics in terms of if a parent has been a stay at home parent, a full time parent at home, you know what does that mean for them. If they have to enter the job market and, depending on their age, what will that look like? You know, what will it look like for their living situation, and there are so many factors that it is overwhelming for a lot of parents, understandably so, and importantly, one needs to be intentional and take their time to try to figure that out. But if they can figure out what parts are under their control that they can do to put themselves in the best position, then they might be able to see if that changes their relationship at all. Right, that in and of itself might have an impact on their relationship. Having more of a sense of agency in your own relationship and feeling like you have more control over your own life may impact your relationship in ways that could be beneficial, or it may allow somebody the logistical and emotional structure to make a decision that they might need to make.

Speaker 2: 20:56

I want to move into that parent now who decides to make that move and to go through a divorce. But first I just want to acknowledge that sometimes there aren't many arguments and I only know this because I have people that reached out and said I'm not in a bad situation, I just have fallen out of love with this person and don't want to be in this relationship anymore. But now it makes me feel even more guilty because nothing bad has been happening in the home, nothing serious, none of these big arguments but I don't want to be in this relationship anymore. So I just want to acknowledge that parent again, because I have received messages that parents are just saying I don't want to be in this relationship anymore and that makes it even harder on the parent.

Speaker 1: 21:37

Yeah, definitely, and I would say it's not a new phenomenon, but it's culturally. I think for many families it feels somewhat new territory because I think it's not talked about a lot right. We think about divorce making a lot of sense, especially if there's any sort of abuse within a home or high conflict and I think people get a lot of support for making that decision.

Speaker 1: 22:05

But when it comes to a situation like you're describing, it can feel even more challenging because there might feel like there's some stigma around divorce under those types of circumstances or some judgment that might occur. But, as I said before, there are a lot of things to think about when it comes to your relationship, including are you modeling what a healthy relationship should look like? And so even the lack of conflict is not what makes a healthy relationship right. Even the lack of conflict is not what makes a healthy relationship right. Having a strong partnership, having, you know, emotional connection and intimacy and trust and that doesn't mean that we have to expect our partners to serve every function that we need in a relationship.

Speaker 1: 22:45

But there are important elements of a partnership that go beyond conflict or lack of conflict, that go beyond conflict or lack of conflict. So in those cases again, it's obviously a very, very personal decision about whether that's something that one feels the need to end a relationship for or not. But just knowing that ultimately, I think every parent is trying to do what is best for their family under the circumstances, and their own mental health is a part of that equation, right, and so if they are unhappy for whatever reason that needs to be looked at and if they seek out their own supports and try to find their own answers to their own mental well-being and they're still concerned that that isn't possible within a relationship, then divorce might be an option for them. So you're absolutely right to bring up the fact that there's all kinds of reasons why parents or partners separate or divorce and it's not all conflict and you mentioned that stigma piece.

Speaker 2: 23:48

I'm thinking about this particular email where the person was afraid of their family, given the culture that they had, that didn't believe in divorce and you need to stick with it and be with your partner they were struggling with. How am I going to tell my family about this if there isn't even a bad reason for it? There's no good reason in their mind, and I know I'm saying bad and good. I don't like using those words, but those are the words that parents use no-transcript.

Speaker 1: 24:47

When a divorce happens, it takes, you know, on average the research suggests two to four years for a newly constructed family to find some settled safe ground and that's true for extended family also of reactivity from family members or that feeling of being lost in the aftermath of a divorce or separation.

Speaker 1: 25:19

When we move forward we can get to a place for many families where that new normal settles down. And it takes time but that new normal is possible. But that it's a steep learning curve. When we're entering in that phase of a relationship and everything is destabilized, you know our own sense of what our family is and what our family means and you know, even if you're the one initiating a divorce or separation, there's still often a grieving period of what you expected your relationship to be like and how long you expected it to go. So just knowing that, yes, it can be tremendously difficult and there may be some backlash from family or friends, and I encourage you to find people in your life who support you and have your back no matter what, but just also know that there is generally a period of instability that can last a while, but that families then settle into and find that new normal.

Speaker 2: 26:21

Let's focus on that word now, I think the instability piece, because that's what's going to happen once the divorce begins. And that's my memory as well, where things just changed from one day to the next. So it felt where one parent is leaving, you're in the home. All of a sudden, you're taking turns visiting one parent and the other. They're speaking badly about each other. Every single time you're with the other one, they're trying to get you to take sides and you're. They're always mad and it almost feels like you're there to support their emotions.

Speaker 2: 26:48

That was my personal experience. Yeah, um, that's very hard for a child when you're young, because you don't have the emotional capacity to deal with this. And some parents will see changes in behavior, as I experienced as well where you're seeking connection with Because, knowing that they're going through a very difficult moment as well and trying to divide assets and everything and the kids and when, who's going to have who and what but then you have that child who feels sometimes lonely and out of place when they're in different homes. How do you navigate this very difficult time?

Speaker 1: 27:32

Yeah, and you know I can relate to your experience and you know I'm sad for all of us who know that experience and felt that instability and you know, certainly that was a lot of my memory of it too is who's picking me up from soccer practice and why are they arguing about who's picking me up from soccer practice? And you know all of these things that feel like they're about you when in reality it's not. But as a child that's how it feels right and that's such a hard feeling to hold because it's not our responsibility to hold those feelings and those feelings don't belong to us. And yet here we are, holding everybody's anger and everybody's resentment and everyone's bitterness and so on. So it's very, very difficult. You know, in an ideal world parents are able to say this is the end of our, you know, romantic relationship, but this is just a continuation of our co-parenting, and that everything is in service of stability for a child. And when parents are able to come together and say listen, you know I may be mad at them for this thing or they may hate me for this thing, but ultimately we will be parenting together for the rest of our lives. So we need to figure out how to separate out our feelings about each other in our romantic relationship from how we can parent together. And it is a very difficult thing to do, and it's certainly a very difficult thing to do right away, which is ideally when our kids need it right. That's so hard, it's so hard and many parents get there and get there a little bit later, but they need it in that early phase and so, even if you don't feel it yet, fake it till you make it right. You know, be very mindful of not commenting on the other parent at all in any way.

Speaker 1: 29:27

Really try to show some stability in terms of being able to have consistent you know contact with each parent. You know that's one of the things we know that impacts a child tremendously is when there is a longer absence away from one of the parents. So, keeping that in mind, that access to both parents is critical and during that time being open, yes, of course, if you want to call your other parent while you're in this home, of course go call them. So just trying as much as possible to separate out your feelings from your ability to put your child's needs first, and many parents are getting creative in terms of how to navigate that transition period. So some families are doing what is called nesting, which is where the children stay in their home. This tends to be a temporary solution but at least in that beginning phase the children tend to stay in their home and the parents alternate coming in and out, so there's some stability there and there's something that can be said for that.

Speaker 1: 30:37

Now, of course, that's not logistically possible for a lot of families. Sometimes they make it work by staying with parents or extended family members or a friend and ultimately it's generally not a long-term solution for most families. Ultimately it's generally not a long-term solution for most families, but it can be helpful in that early phase when parents are really struggling with managing their own emotions but can at least prioritize stability for their children in that way. But if doing so is going to create more conflict because there's more interaction that's needed in terms of communication and communication isn't safe then that wouldn't be the route to go. But families are getting a bit more creative in how they can find stability during that transition period.

Speaker 1: 31:21

But I would definitely try to, you know, double down on any areas of your children's lives that can root them in stability. So whether it's, you know, certain nights of the week that are with one parent, and you're always having family dinner at that night, or visiting grandparents on a Sunday, or talking to their teachers and making sure that they have a little bit of extra time with their teachers or something like that. So, again, not everybody has the benefit of extended family around them, but whatever we can do to just add an element of stability as much as possible is key, because those are the memories that many of us have. Right, where am I today? Or who's shuffling me where, and all the arguing that goes with that.

Speaker 2: 32:10

Are there any differences between ages and children? That goes with that. Are there any differences between ages and children? So if a parent is going through this and their child is two versus a parent whose child is 12, are we to expect behavioral changes or emotional bigger emotions around that moment, or are the younger kids sort of protected from this?

Speaker 1: 32:28

That's a great question and I would say the research is showing a little bit of differences across developmental stages.

Speaker 1: 32:37

There are some unique considerations, especially for early childhood, because when we take an infant, let's say who might be nursing.

Speaker 1: 32:49

Still, you know they might be breastfeeding or they might be co-sleeping, or they might be home with one parent. You know they might be breastfeeding or they might be co sleeping, or they might be home with one parent. You know during the day, every day, while another parent works. You know that's a very different consideration than a child who's nine or 10. It doesn't mean better or worse, it just means a very different consideration, especially because younger children just can't go as long without seeing their primary attachment figures right, so we can't have. You know, a common scenario for some older children might be one week, one week. We can't have a young child spending a week away from their primary attachment figure. You know, ideally not from either of their attachment figures.

Speaker 1: 33:31

So there are some unique considerations in that respect. It doesn't mean that the outcomes are necessarily different depending on whether or not we are tuned into what they need at that developmental stage. So it's not better or worse as long as we're tuning into the different needs of that stage. But we do know that late adolescents tend to be impacted a little bit differently than, say, early adolescents or younger children. And it's not necessarily that divorce is less impactful. It may just be that by then they have more coping mechanisms or more support systems in place. So it does impact people differently at different stages. So it does impact people differently at different stages.

Speaker 2: 34:12

I was going to follow up by asking if a parent should wait then. But given what you said at the beginning, if that conflict is still very intense and it's not a healthy relationship, then we actually don't want to keep that child in that type of relationship until they're teenagers.

Speaker 1: 34:37

That's right, because we also know the impact of chronic stress on a brain. So we know that exposure to chronic arguing or chronic stress or tension has impacts on brain development. You know, like very real impacts in terms of parts of our brain that are responsible for emotion regulation, for memory, for attention, can all be impacted by exposure to chronic stress. So that is definitely something that needs to be remembered, as opposed to thinking well, if I can just stick it out until they are starting school, then that will be better. Not necessarily. So. A lot of things at stake and a lot of factors to weigh.

Speaker 2: 35:08

There was a father that reached out to me and said how do I support my child during this divorce, knowing that he had heard from friends of his Sometimes kids take sides. And I thought that was a really interesting question and I didn't have an answer and I said I'll get back to you with a podcast, and that's when I had to reach out to you. But I was really curious about that. Do kids often take sides? I know that it happened in my personal experience, but it's because we went towards the nurturing parent that we were closer with and then, in my situation, my father actually left and wasn't part of our lives anymore. So we took sides, obviously. But when parents are both involved, is that typical to see a child take sides? Typical to see?

Speaker 1: 35:50

a child take sides? You know it's a really great question actually and you know I can answer it both from professional and personal experience. You know one thing I'll say is that you know, even in my home, where there was some you know violence within my home, Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 36:08

Even though from an outsider one might think like, okay, this is a good thing, right, Because you know of side with them because the other partner was abusive or violent or a problem in some way. But we need to remember that children love their parents, even often in very difficult and abusive situations, very difficult and abusive situations, and so we need to acknowledge that. You know, yeah, maybe you still do love your dad or your mom, or you know, of course you do because they're your dad or your mom. So, being very careful not to disparage the feelings of your children, even though you might think like, how could you love this person? You know they're terrible to us or whatever. So sometimes there's that kind of extreme that needs to be understood.

Speaker 1: 37:16

But also, I think, when parents are very careful to remember that divorce is generally not a one-sided situation, right, there may have been one major precipitating factor, Right? So maybe if there was an affair, or maybe there was, you know something that that led to the family choosing to end the relationship, that contributed to the state of the relationship in general. And so often I try to coach parents to say, like, when you're talking to your children about why we're getting divorced, you know many parents will say like. Well, I want to say like, because he cheated on me and so we're ending right, which feels fair.

Speaker 1: 38:07

As the person who maybe experienced that, that feels fair. As the person who maybe experienced that. That feels fair. But that's unfair to your children. Right to put something like that on them because your marital relationship has nothing to do with them, and so you need to be able to find again that kernel of truth, which is you know, we're struggling in our relationship and we think that we'll get along better as co-parents than as a married partnership or whatever, and that's generally the true kernel for most families, right? That's generally what it comes down to, and the reasons why are varied.

Speaker 2: 38:46

Just, to add to that. Yes, however, there might be a parent that doesn't want this divorce right, and then that would be. They would feel like that's a lie, saying that we both want this.

Speaker 1: 38:55

Yes, but we don't have to say we both want this right. But we can say something like you know, the relationship isn't working or you know which, if one parent wants it and one doesn't, the relationship isn't working right. So there's still the kernel of truth. So, because that is true, there are times when you know, one person ends a relationship and the other one is blindsided by that or really doesn't want that. And by no means, just to be very clear am I saying that if one partner is unfaithful, that it's because of problems in their marriage that the other partner was responsible for. By no means. Am I saying that. I'm only saying that there's never just one thing, or there's rarely just one thing, that makes a relationship end.

Speaker 1: 39:44

And so when we can at least remember that, when we're sharing this information with our children, that we need to protect their relationship with their parent as a separate thing from our relationship as a couple, so being able to come back to you know, I know this is hard and our family will look different and it will take us all some time to adjust.

Speaker 1: 40:05

And you can acknowledge even yes, this is even hard for me. You know, this isn't what I expected either and it will be hard for me to think about our new family in a different way, but here's what we're going to do about it. So again, we're kind of anchoring in, like but here's some of the things we're going to put in place so we can acknowledge those difficult feelings, we can acknowledge that this is hard or unexpected, and even that it's hard for us, but we're going to anchor it in what are we doing about it? You know, other parent and I are coming up with a plan to make sure that we can figure out what's best for, for for you, as we go through this.

Speaker 2: 40:45

Right. Thank you for for that and and and I'm sorry for what you had to experience as well During your childhood. I I get those difficult moments and it's not easy to kind of revisit that sometimes. You know Sometimes that co-parenting life isn't what a parent expected and I am assuming maybe I don't know how similar yours is from mine, but, like I said, my father did not co-parent, he just moved to a different city and just didn't call anymore. So I think for my mom she became a single mom overnight, without support, without somebody to take a break, and I saw how hard that was on her. What if that parent ends up in that journey? Because I know that you mentioned the importance of both parents and I've read those studies as well where they talk about how important it is for both parents to be present and consistent in the child's life. But that's not the reality for everybody. What happens in that situation where a parent is alone and the other parent just disappears or isn't giving that attention to that child that they were hoping?

Speaker 1: 41:50

Yeah, you know and and mine is very similar my father also left, and you know it's it is. You know these situations happen and they're sad and they're hard, and you know, over time, hopefully, people like you and I make sense of their experiences over time and sometimes with support or sometimes just on their own, we learn how to make sense of it and, you know, understand our own reactions to it and how that can serve us going forward. But it is the reality for many that one parent ends up as a single parent or, even if it's not as extreme as you and I experienced, it might be that the other parent just gradually withdraws and they're not as present over time. That's also fairly common, and so the thing to remember is that, even though we might talk about what's optimal in terms of maintaining contact with both parents through a separation, there are many kids in life who are going through suboptimal circumstances, who can still thrive, and so, whether it's divorce or whether it's parental illness or trauma or experience that they've had that's impacting them greatly, there's still opportunity to have post-traumatic growth right, that we can go through really difficult periods and still grow from them and still thrive, and so if a parent finds themselves in that situation.

Speaker 1: 43:18

It is by no means a negative outlook for your child. There are lots of ways to still support them. We know that a child really just needs one strong attachment figure in their life and that will buffer them from a lot. So if you and you don't have to feel like, okay, now I have to be both parents to my child, they just need you right. They just need you to keep showing up. You know, in the way that you do, you don't have to be above and beyond to compensate for the lack of another parent. You just need to be above and beyond to compensate for the lack of another parent. You just need to be you and show up and just maintain that connection with your child, and that will buffer them from so much.

Speaker 2: 44:01

Thank you for saying that Again. I just think that's going to validate a lot of parents and their worries or their feelings around this and help them feel seen, because I do get those emails from parents saying, well, that other parent has taken off and I'm alone. And now, according to the research you share on Curious Neuron, they need both parents. So are you telling me now that my child is damaged, but you are speaking to the resilience part and that one strong connection and the impact that it does have on them?

Speaker 1: 44:29

Exactly, yes, it's. You know research is important and you know we need to understand brain development and the various impacts of things that can occur in a child's life. But we also know so much about what protects kids, even through, you know, difficult or traumatic events. And so when we leverage those right, like I think about, like pulling all those levers, like can we pull the lever of, you know, connection, can we pull the lever of community support, of you know, strong friendships, of ritual, of you know all these things that we know can help kids of sense making right, like we can make sense of an experience with our child. So when we can pull all those levers of support and resilience, we get growth through that.

Speaker 2: 45:14

At what point does a parent make the decision to kind of get support for their child? So maybe they're noticing behavioral issues. But what are some of the signs, I guess, for that parent to say, okay, my child is struggling and I think that I need to bring them to see a psychologist or a therapist to help them through this transition?

Speaker 1: 45:34

It's a great question, but I'm going to back it up a little bit because I get asked that question a lot and I constantly get emails from parents saying you know, we're starting the process of a separation and we need to find a psychologist for our child or for our children. And I would back that up even more because not every child, of course, is going to need the support of a professional to navigate a separation or divorce. What is beneficial for almost all parents who are navigating separation or divorce is talking to somebody about how to mitigate the effects on your child. So, prior to telling your children that you're going to separate, prior to making these decisions, if you can come together ideally and say this is what we're embarking on, how do we do this as well as possible? How do we do this as intentionally and mindfully as possible? And I can guarantee you that the parents who do that are going to be in a much better position to co-parent successfully and help their child navigate that, because they're already leading with intention in terms of going through this together and co-parenting as a partnership. So I would encourage parents to seek out that consultation, and it doesn't mean going to see a psychologist weekly, it could just be one consultation, you know, just to really think through, like what do we know about how to tell this news to children? When should we do it? What time of day School day, not school day? All of these logistics, when do we do it? Do we do it right before one partner moves out or not? There's so many logistical factors that parents don't have to navigate alone. You know there are a lot of different ways to get some support through those questions. So that is the better place to start. But let's say that you've done those things, or maybe you haven't done those things, but either way, you're now navigating some challenges, emotionally or behaviorally, with your children.

Speaker 1: 47:34

First, know that we expect some changes to occur. So the fact that they might be showing some behavioral or emotional differences does not mean that it's a problem per se. Right? We know that kids go through adjustment periods, just as we do. So you might see some nightmares. You might see more trouble falling asleep. A lot of kids will regress to needing to have someone fall asleep with them again, instead of sleeping on their own.

Speaker 1: 48:02

We might see changes in their mood. They might be more irritable or more grumpy or, you know, have trouble focusing at school, not want to do some of the things that they're normally interested in, and all of that is a pretty typical and common reaction, so long as it's relatively temporary and so long as they're still able to get through their day to day. But, you know, if a child is really not eating, not sleeping or refusing to engage in activities that they normally enjoy, or if this is lasting, you know, like months and months, you know, or six months later and they're still experiencing emotions or behaviors to the same extent as they were when it was first happening, that might be a good time to consult with somebody to see does my child need some more direct support?

Speaker 2: 48:51

That's such good advice about kind of planning, being proactive about what you're doing and saying okay, we know we're going to go through this and you're right. I think parents don't know how to say this to their child Like what time of day? And it reminds me of an interview I had with a researcher that studied how to talk to kids about death, and it was about like the right timing and the not at the end end of the day because they might go to bed and ruminate. So I had never realized that the same would apply when you're talking to them about divorce. Yes, yes, so interesting.

Speaker 1: 49:20

And you know these are obviously uncomfortable conversations for parents too, and you know, do you tell them together, do you tell them separately? There's so many logistics and there isn't one answer again for everyone. But it's a lot to navigate and if someone like a psychologist or a therapist or a mediator or somebody can facilitate those conversations, it will just reduce the parent's stress and allow them to be more emotionally present when they do do those things with their children.

Speaker 2: 49:50

Right. One last question. I want to be mindful of your time and I knew it'd be hard for me to stop asking you questions because it's so interesting, it's all important, it really is, you know, and we've literally covered everything that has come in, and I think it'll be really important for parents to hear this because there are lots of emails around this. So I think the last question that I'm curious about, and again because of what I've heard from parents, is sometimes a child doesn't want to go to one parent's house. Sometimes that child really didn't have a good attachment with that person or a connection with that one parent. Maybe there was abuse or physical violence in the home and that child just is afraid of that parent.

Speaker 2: 50:32

You know, one thing that really surprised me was an email. It was from the United States. I don't know if it's similar here, but if there was an arrest because of the one parent who was violent with the mother and that didn't lead to any changes in custody once the divorce happened, it was still split in half and it was very difficult for the mother to let her child go there and the child was afraid of that parent. But they still had to do this. So I didn't know that it was like that, but I'm just picturing all of these situations where one child doesn't want to go to the other parent's house. How does a parent navigate that particular situation when you kind of have to force the child to go there?

Speaker 1: 51:18

Yeah, you know it's so sad and I would say that happens less here, but it's not impossible, it can happen. So, first of all, in those extreme you know cases, please consult with a family lawyer and see what your options are, because ultimately your child's safety is is the most important thing, and doing something without knowing your legal rights can actually put your child in more danger of you know there are parents who've been accused of kidnapping their own children because they've been trying to keep them away from another partner, even if that partner is you know. Oh wow, so it's yeah, so it's complicated. So please consult your family lawyer to see you know, or legal aid, just to make sure that you understand what your rights are and you know expressing your concerns. And you know there may be times when that's how it happens initially, but oftentimes what happens is a parent will then see an emotional or behavioral outcome as a result of continued exposure to that parent, and so sometimes they're able to then take that information and maybe, along with a psychologist who specializes in sort of custody and parental assessments, can then take that and maybe rearrange possible custody or have supervised visitation, or they might mitigate it by having them do daytime visits only and not overnights, so that we're sort of mitigating against some of the stressors that can come up right. So maybe a parent who is only just going to take them for an afternoon and go for ice cream and go hang out there may be less opportunity to be triggered or stressed or violent because they're not navigating the day-to-day of homework or sleeping over or so on. So it's important to navigate those things first.

Speaker 1: 53:19

But even in less extreme cases there are children who are like I don't want to go to so-and-so's house, and sometimes it can be as simple as maybe the relationship isn't as strong or maybe it is. You know, one parent is a lot less strict than the other parent and so they get to play video games during the week at one parent and not the others, right? So what I would say is you know, this is where co-parenting is important, where you can kind of come together and say like listen, I don't want to keep you know again, we're talking about these non-threatening situations. Listen, I don't want to keep you know again, we're talking about these non threatening situations, but I don't want to keep my child from spending time with you, but I also don't want to feel like I am forcing them out the door every time.

Speaker 1: 54:00

So how can we come up with, you know, some sort of strategies that can help engage them and what? What would help them feel more connected? Right, so we're going to go back to what can we do to build and support that relationship on that, you know, with that other partner, and ideally that's something that both partners should be invested in, right? We want our children to have a strong relationship with that other partner too, right, for so many reasons. So if we can collaborate and say like well, maybe if you, maybe if you try this, or you know, I find they, it works well if we do this, or what? If we can collaborate and say like, well, maybe if you, maybe if you try this, or you know, I find they, it works well if we do this. Or what if we made an agreement about how we approach homework or how we approach whatever?

Speaker 1: 54:41

Again, these are all in ideal situations when people are able to co-parent and communicate with each other. But, of course, I work with many families who can barely email each other. You know, and that's you know, if they're lucky, they can email each other. So sometimes these things aren't always possible and we're in a situation of just validating, like, I get how hard it is for you. What we can do is encourage our children just to share their feelings with the other parent. Other parent, um, just ask like have you, have you talked to mom or dad about how you're feeling? Um, and you know, encourage them in that way so that we're not interfering in a way that the other parent might perceive as self-serving.

Speaker 2: 55:25

Yeah, I get that. So, and you know, is there anything, I guess, for the parent? Let's say they don't want to leave a certain parent and they're struggling to distance themselves from you. So it might not just be that they don't want to see the other parent, but they don't want to leave one of their parents because they are so close with them. Are there ways that you could create moments of connection? I don't know, it would be like a drawing or something that you can send your child off, something that you made for them, a little heart that you cut out, a way to connect with them even if they're not with you, so they can feel that you're still with them.

Speaker 1: 55:56

Yes, so there's two things about this that I think are important to mention. So one here's where ritual can come in, and it could be a ritual thing that we say when we separate from each other. It could be a ritual of giving right.

Speaker 1: 56:13

You can put a kiss in their pocket or you know any kind of little ritual like that that could be comforting for a child. You might have them take a photo of you know, you and them together and have that with them, you know, in their other home. So that's one piece of it. We can create ritual around it and we can, yes, make sure that we are filling that connection cup as much as possible before going. The other piece, though, is that sometimes, a child feels like they're betraying one parent by being with the other parent, Right, and so, especially if they feel like one parent is sort of the bad guy in the situation and I don't mean male, just the term bad guy, you know, we have to be very careful as the other parent to say like you know, I'm okay right, Like I miss you when you're gone, but I'm okay, right, and here's what I'm going to do I'm going to go have dinner with Auntie Judy and then I'm going to go for a run, and then I'm going to read my book, and then I'm going to do this.

Speaker 1: 57:20

They need to know that we're okay, right, Because sometimes children will struggle with separating because they feel like they're betraying the other parent and that they're leaving them all by themselves themselves and they feel sad about that. So we need to also convey that we're okay and they don't have to take care of us, and that's our job to take care of them.

Speaker 2: 57:42

I had never thought about that piece. It's so important to realize. I love how you shared what you're doing, because then the child also knows you're fine, you're doing your own thing, you miss me, I miss you, but you're fine, you're you're doing your own thing, you miss me, I miss you, but you're okay. I love that piece. Tamara, thank you, as always, for sharing all your insights and your knowledge with us, um, and with me, you know. Uh, today is. This makes it my favorite episode between the two of us, because I think I understand now why we do what we do and why we've connected on this. It just makes sense.

Speaker 1: 58:10

Yes, indeed, it sure does. But honestly, I always love talking to you and this is an important topic and despite the fact that so many families are experiencing this, we're still not really empowering families enough to know how to navigate these situations.

Speaker 2: 58:24

So I'm glad that you're bringing this up. Thank you. Is there a way for anybody to reach you If you can share? Do you still have courses or ways that we can learn from you?

Speaker 1: 58:33

Yes, so I do have my no More Power Struggles course, which is an online course that parents can. It's self-directed and just helps them figure out how to move away from those strategies that we know don't work. You know timeouts, punishments and so on and how to use what we know about brain development all the wonderful stuff that you share with your audience how to leverage that to support their development. So that's available on my website, which is drtamarasoulscom, and one of the resources that I have on there that speaks to a lot of families is the four often overlooked reasons why your child is melting down, and I have that there because it helps everyone look a little deeper and even in the context of divorce it's going beyond just the surface behaviors Like what's underneath that we need to kind of pay attention to and notice. So that's up there as well on my website if that's helpful for anybody.

Speaker 2: 59:28

Thank you, I will add the link to your website and the show notes and to your social media as well. Thank you, I will add the link to your website and the show notes and to your social media as well. Thank you again and I look forward to our next talk. Thanks, cindy, me too.