The Science of Well-being: Insights on Happiness and Workplace Wellness

In this conversation, Jacqueline discusses the application of the science of wellbeing in daily life. She shares her personal journey of implementing wellbeing practices and emphasizes the importance of vulnerability and self-reflection. The conversation explores misconceptions about happiness and the role of circumstances in our overall wellbeing. Jacqueline also highlights the significance of understanding and embracing different perspectives on happiness. The conversation delves into redefining success and shifting career paths, as well as the importance of acts of kindness and overcoming the 'What the Hell' effect. The discussion concludes with practical steps for parents to nurture their wellbeing and the need for supportive work environments.

Takeaways

• Wellbeing is a holistic concept that encompasses physical, mental, and emotional health.
• Taking care of one's physical health through exercise, nutrition, and sleep is crucial for overall wellbeing.
• Mental wellbeing involves managing stress, practicing mindfulness, and seeking support when needed.
• Emotional wellbeing is about understanding and expressing emotions in a healthy way.
• Prioritizing self-care and making time for activities that bring joy and relaxation is essential for wellbeing.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

There's a ton of evidence that we think that certain milestones are going to bring us happiness, and oftentimes they do for a short period of time, but that happiness is not sustained over the long period of time.

Speaker 2: 0:22

Hello, my dear friend, welcome back to another episode of the Curious Neuron podcast. My name is Cindy Huffington and I am your host. I am a mom of three from Montreal, canada, and I have a PhD in neuroscience. My goal with Curious Neuron is that you have a space where you can feel supported as a parent, because, you know, this changed a lot. So this wasn't the goal with Curious Neuron. In the beginning, I wanted to share the science of emotional development. That's what I knew and understood and I wanted to make sure that you had that information as a parent. But then, as I had more and more kids and as I chatted with many parents from this Curious Neuron community, I realized that if we weren't okay then we were struggling to support our kids and take care of them, and that's why I've switched the past year and a half, where the focus is still emotional and psychological well-being and I still tell you how to support your child, but I focus on you, the parent and the caregiver, because you matter. So that's what this space is all about. I am going to cover exactly that in today's episode. We are covering the signs of well-being and we're going to talk about the workplace. We're going to talk about home balancing both.

Speaker 2: 1:31

I've been following Jacqueline, who is a professor of applied behavioral science. I've been following her for a while. She's been on the podcast before, but what I've really been enjoying on her Instagram account lately is that or this year, she's been putting out these little reels called how she Applies the Science of Wellbeing. And you know, I think one of these big misconceptions about whether it's influencers or people on Instagram or social media, including myself is that we have it all put together and it's not. And I thought that's why I need to talk about things that I make mistakes with or, you know, issues that I struggle with, because I want you to know that the ones you're going through are exactly the same as mine. And sometimes, when we're out of that, when we're looking at somebody's life from the outside, we think, wow, they have it all, everything's going right, everything's good, but it's not Not all the time. But we do try our best, and I know that you are too. So today we are covering the science of well-being, and it's one of my favorite episodes.

Speaker 2: 2:31

You need to tune into this one. So, before we begin, I do want to thank the Tannenbaum Open Science Institute for supporting the Curious Neuron podcast, as well as the McConnell Foundation. Without these two organizations, my friends, I would not be talking to you right now. So make sure that you do your part. Subscribe to the podcast, click on that button, share it with friends on Facebook, on Instagram, share it in your reels, in your stories, talk about it anywhere that you can, if possible, because that allows the podcast to continue and, to be honest with you, it doesn't look that good for next season. So this might be the last season of the podcast. So make sure you share it and I'm not just saying that it's real and make sure that you leave a rating. If you can take a moment just to do that very quickly, or if you have a little bit more time, if you can leave a review and let me know, say hi, send me an email, info at kirstenroncom. And if you're not enjoying the podcast anymore, also, you can email me. Let me know so that I can make this something that is worth your time.

Speaker 2: 3:27

Before we move on to today's episode, I do want to remind you that there is a reflective journal that I've put out that allows you to reflect your partner with your child. Each one of these topics have their own chapter, so that you can dive into that chapter and start journaling and start reflecting. What can I do differently? What have I, let's say, with your partner? Am I able to apply perspective taking? What about conflict resolution? How do I think about the argument that I have and reflect on it, to come back to it and learn from it and and set my boundaries if I need to? So I've covered all of that in this 100 page journal. That is $29.99 on my website, but if you would like it for $10 less, then send me an email with a screenshot of your review and I will send you a $10 coupon. All right, that is all for the housekeeping of today.

Speaker 2: 4:23

As I said, jacqueline is somebody that I really look up to. I love what she shares on social media and I know that you will. I will share her website and her social media account. As I said, she is an associate professor of applied behavioral science, the department chair as well, of applied behavioral science and organization theory and management at Pepperdine in their business school, so let's not keep you waiting. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Dr Jacqueline Margolis.

Speaker 2: 4:53

Welcome back everyone. As promised, I am here with Jacqueline. Welcome, hi. It is so nice to be here. Hi, it's so nice to have you back. I enjoyed our first conversation and I was looking at your Instagram account and found that it was really interesting that you were sharing how you have been applying the science of wellbeing, which is what we talk about here at Curious Neuron. I gave the introduction of what you do at the beginning of this, but I'd love for you to share a little bit about who you are and what you're doing, and how did you end up with this series of applying the science of well-being to your life?

Speaker 1: 5:24

Thank you. No, I so appreciate that. Well, I'm a professor and one of the courses that I teach is on employee well-being and burnout, and I think, because I teach that course, everyone thinks that I have it all figured out, which is one of those things that I'm always trying to get past is that there's a solution and once you figure out that solution, everything's going to be perfect. So the last time I was teaching this course, which was a couple of months ago, I was teaching the lessons because I know them very well, but I was not practicing what I was preaching. So for a while, I have wanted to not only talk about it but also implement it for myself, because I have a young kid.

Speaker 1: 6:10

Life can be overwhelming sometimes and I know what works, but I haven't necessarily focused on applying it. So I decided to be a little bit vulnerable and start telling people that, rather than kind of feeling like it was inappropriate for me to say I'm the expert who's not applying it myself. And it's been fun to not only think about it but also do some of these practices myself. And this isn't you know. Obviously I've done many of these things before, but I've never made such a condensed effort to try to translate science into practice for myself.

Speaker 2: 6:44

I think it's really nice to hear somebody who's the experts sharing that they might not be doing it, you know not the right way, but they're not. You know implementing everything, and I think I see that as well. I talk a lot about emotions and parents will say well, I'm sure you're like calm, cool and collected all the time, and I'm not. It's. I am naturally kind of a calmer person, but I can't always have it all. Keep it all together, you know, and I think it's important for people in this field to share, you know, what they're struggling with or what they're working on, because it reminds all of us that we're human and that we all have to work on this. So I think it's been, you know, really enjoyable for me to watch your reels and to see, like the tips that you're sharing with us. It's just, it's it's. I really really appreciate them.

Speaker 2: 7:25

So I think for a parent, you know. I think one thing that parents might be listening to what we think about all the time is how we're always aligned and wanting to try to be happy with everything that we do. Everything has to be. We want everything to be perfect. We feel that we have lots of flaws and we're just trying to be happy every day and then we don't end up with that kind of day or something happens and we're like that was a bad day, even though it was a bad moment Sometimes. You shared some really interesting research around happiness and spoke about the fact that only 10% of our happiness is based on circumstances. Can you share a little bit more about that, because I do think we have this sort of misunderstanding about happiness.

Speaker 1: 8:14

Yes, absolutely. This was some research that when I read it a while ago, it had a really big impact on the way that I view happiness. And a lot of this comes out of the research that originally found that people tend to have a set point for happiness, and this was because, after huge life events happened, people tended to revert to their standard level of happiness. So there was, for instance, studies that followed lottery winners and for most people you think that if you win the lottery you're going to be the happiest that you'll ever be and they saw that that people were pretty happy momentarily, but then they got back down to their normal quote unquote normal level of happiness. And we see this with Olympians, we see this with people who do things that we think would make us the happiest, and we also see it with people who go through tragedies that eventually they revert, for most people, back to their standard level of happiness.

Speaker 1: 9:00

And so, if there is this set point that we tend to be at, the question then came does that mean that we don't have any avenues to increase our average level of happiness? And luckily, the answer is no. We know that there are a lot of intentional actions and practices that we can do in order to improve our well-being. Improve our well-being and there's a whole field, mostly in positive psychology, that's dedicated to understanding. What can you do in order to get to thriving, to get to be that place where you are enjoying more of your life?

Speaker 2: 9:36

Right, and I think what your post also reminded me of and what you're saying now is there is a certain amount of work on our end, right, in terms of leading to that. I think of the conversations I've had with my kids, one child in particular would have like a bad moment and at the end of the day, I would ask my kids what was your favorite moment? You know, like, what did you enjoy today? And that particular child would say it was a really bad day because my brother didn't share his Legos with me. And I would say, well, that was a bad moment. But how about the rest of the day? How was the rest of your day? And he would say, well, I guess it was okay. We ate pasta. It's my favorite meal, you know.

Speaker 2: 10:11

We went to play outside, we went to the park, and I would remind him that, you know, a bad moment isn't necessarily a bad day and if we, we can choose to look at it that way. And it really changed his mindset, but it was something that he needs to. He needed to work on and is still working on, and when I said that to him, it reminded me that I sometimes do that with my kids, right, like I feel that at the end of the day there might've been a really rough afternoon, or it lasted one hour or half an hour, or a rough morning, and I feel that when those are challenging moments, at the end of my day I'll say, oh, I'll call a friend and say like it was a really bad day, and only when I was saying that to him I realized that I was doing the same. So you really remind me. You know in your, in your post, that we have to put some of the work into it.

Speaker 1: 10:56

Yeah, that's absolutely the I think, the hardest part, because so many of us were sold that when we were younger that you chase happiness. Happiness is something that you figure out how to attain and then, once you're there, you're there and in reality it has a lot to do with genetics and who we are, and not as much to do with what we attain but how we approach situations. And that's really really difficult for so many of us to grasp because we think that once we have XYZ whether that's a relationship or a job, or we even lose 10 pounds, that's going to bring us to a certain level of happiness. But the problem is is that we know that once people get there, that doesn't lead to sustained happiness. So it's really those perspective shifts and those intentional actions that can help us become the happiest that we can be. The other part that I find interesting that you're reminding me of when you talk about your son is that we all just feel the world differently and it's not getting rid of that but figuring out how to get the best of us.

Speaker 1: 12:00

So David Brooks he's an author.

Speaker 1: 12:03

He recently wrote a book with Oprah.

Speaker 1: 12:05

I don't know if you've read any of his literature, but he talks about the research on positive and negative affect, and I like the way he simplifies it, because he says positive affect are the positive emotions that you feel and negative affect are the negative emotions that you feel yeah, everything or nothing all at once. And so he has this interesting two by two if you can picture, like a two by two grid, where people who tend to have high positive and negative affect are what he calls mad scientists, and then people who have a lot of low negative I'm sorry, high negative affect and low positive affect. He calls poets people who tend to have a lot of high positive affect and low negative affect. He calls cheerleaders, and then people who tend to have a lot of high positive affect and low negative affect he calls cheerleaders, and then people who tend to be low on both he calls sober judges. Anyway, I say this because your son sounds a lot like my daughter, who's a lot like me, and that I'm a mad scientist. I feel everything.

Speaker 2: 13:17

And as soon as I stopped trying to get rid of that, but rather figure out how to leverage those positive emotions, things started to change for me husband and I, like I'll be the kind of person who will, you know, go out and do stuff and read books and feel that that brings me joy and pleasure, and he'll be very content in every day, like the regular routines that we have. He's not looking for something else and he's just like I'm fine, I'm happy this way, and it's like I'm looking for extra, you know. So we really are different and we need to keep that in mind, because maybe even with our partners, we're assuming that they'd be similar to us in how they look for their happiness or how they bring that joy into their life, but they might not do it necessarily the same way that we do.

Speaker 1: 14:09

Yes, absolutely. That's such a powerful lesson and it applies to finding joy at home and also at work. A lot of new leaders that I talk to assume that everybody is shooting for the same career path that they are, when in reality it might be different. So figuring out what brings you joy, but then also recognizing it could be different from other people, is such an important lesson.

Speaker 2: 14:33

You mentioned employees before the workforce and you know, when we're shooting for one goal within work and trying to move up a position and then we might get to that and then we know that there's another one higher, I feel that sometimes we get stuck in these moments of trying to get better at what we're doing. Parents I spoke with and how they were saying the career. It's very difficult when they're balancing work and they're balancing, you know, home and family and trying to do both and not just trying to do both but trying to do both. Very well, I think sometimes that takes a really heavy toll on parents. What would you recommend, I guess, for parents who are listening, who feel like they're struggling with that balance of work and family?

Speaker 1: 15:22

who feel like they're struggling with that balance of work and family.

Speaker 1: 15:28

There's no easy solution.

Speaker 1: 15:29

I mean, I am very familiar with this research and something that I still struggle with as well, because a lot of us were brought up in the generation where you could have it all, and, although that's really great and wonderful, it's also something that's very difficult on a day-to-day basis.

Speaker 1: 15:43

So I think that the first thing is that that's a very normal feeling, and don't let anyone tell you that it is not a normal feeling. The other thing that I love to remind students, and both the executive students and the younger students alike, is that careers are long, and so it's okay if you're not attaining everything that you want to right now. We know that a lot of people's careers spiral and that they start doing related but different things, and when you look back, it's not always a linear path. A lot of people who are looking to advance think that they're just going to go straight up a ladder, when in reality, you might be learning in a different direction and so being okay with not knowing what's next, which can be difficult for a lot of us who like to control things.

Speaker 2: 16:32

That's true. Yeah, my example people who know my story. It falls very well within that, because I was doing a post doc and, you know, had like envisioned being in research my entire life and then I had my first child and things shifted for me and I was like, well, I don't know if this is the life that I want. You know, I was looking at my supervisors and the people around me living in the lab, where I was particularly, and it just it wasn't what I wanted, and maybe that's just the environment that I was in.

Speaker 2: 16:59

But you know, I, I left research and I remember, you know, some family members telling me or you know some friends saying, but you, that you wasted all your life studying and being in school, why would you leave? Why would you quit? And I, I, it took me a couple of years to realize that I didn't quit, that I made a shift and a change, I pivoted and that led to this, which I'm extremely grateful for, and now graduate students are, you know, working with me and saying that they want to finish their PhD and move on to science communication as well. So I think what you said is really important for you know, even professionals. What I'm surprised at the people who send me emails and CVs are people who are, you know, have MBAs and PhDs, who want to shift their careers. So it's happening not just the beginning. It's happening later on, where people realize their values are changing and I just wanted to share that.

Speaker 1: 17:49

Yeah, I think that's so, so powerful, and we we see this as individuals, how our definition of success changes as our lives move on.

Speaker 1: 17:59

But we're also seeing that in society as well. We know that, if you make vast generalizations, gen Z is more interested in balancing work and life than prior generations were. Of course, that's not for everybody, but it's this really, I think, impressive reckoning that we can all define success differently, and that's a good thing. Figuring out what success means to you can be one of your superpowers, because then you're not working to fit everybody else's definition of success, but rather working to fit what really brings you joy and energy, and that does shift right. You just gave a great example of how that can shift, especially with career milestones. But for everyone and for my students, I always start with an activity where it focuses on honing your values and demonstrating what's important to you, because that can be such a powerful centering force, especially when our lives get busy and overwhelming as they always do, to remind yourself of what is important to you and what is driving you.

Speaker 2: 18:58

Right, I really do think it's important for us to remind ourselves of these values because they do shift and, you know, coming back to that, even a couple years into your career, or even for myself, you have to keep coming back to them to see if what you're doing within your life is, if it makes sense, if it's aligned with your values, because sometimes we tend to shift off of what's important to us, do you? I guess, when it comes to that work-family conflict or balance, and somebody who's really trying to achieve higher goals at work and thinking about all this topic in terms of happiness and well-being, at some point maybe it's making us not well, right, like, maybe it's. We think that that next position is going to bring us the happiness, but it might not, and I'm only saying this because I've had a discussion with a friend who just kept going higher and higher and at one point she was making a decent living and had a really important job, and she was.

Speaker 2: 19:55

She was less happy than she was like three, four years ago, when she had more time on her hands and a little bit less money. And so she made the shift of downsizing, I guess you would say, but coming down from a position making a little bit less money but being home more often, and now she's back to a certain level of happiness. Do you see that often, or is there research around that when you're just trying to achieve certain positions and it doesn't necessarily bring that happiness with it?

Speaker 1: 20:19

Yes, absolutely. There's a ton of evidence that we think that certain milestones are going to bring us happiness, and oftentimes they do for a short period of time, but that happiness is not sustained over the long period of time. And it's hard, because it is a mindset shift, to say if I attained this, it's what? Are you telling me? That my goals aren't going to bring me happiness? And oftentimes what happens is there's this weird sense of blues after we attain our goals, because we realize that life ultimately is the same, um, just with a different house or a different job, and we still have the same challenges and everything I mean.

Speaker 1: 21:00

One of the most famous examples that I can think of is Michael Phelps has been incredibly honest. I wish for everyone who doesn't know, michael Phelps is, you know, probably the most famous Olympian, who has a bazillion gold medals in swimming, and he's been incredibly honest about how getting those gold medals did not bring him happiness and getting those gold medals known to bring me happiness. That's not to say that goals aren't motivating and wonderful and great they are, but it's not the end, all be all. So it might be that 10% or 20% boost, but it's not going to be that 100% change that we think Right.

Speaker 2: 21:59

Yeah, coming back to, I guess, the basics of the science of the well-being that you've been applying, you mentioned something about thoughtful Thursdays, which I thought was really interesting, and what also what I love is that you show that you know, because I think with the new year, everybody has these goals and they have these resolutions and it's like I'm going to do this four times a week and then the second week comes and you do it three times and you're like I failed, that's it, I'm done. You also spoke about the some. I figured it was a theory of some sort.

Speaker 1: 22:30

I forget. Yeah, yes, that's it, thank you.

Speaker 2: 22:35

And I thought, when you, when I saw that, I realized like I do it as well, like it's anyway. So all this to say, let's start with some other tips that I think that people can apply with their own lives. So what is thoughtful Thursday for you?

Speaker 1: 22:48

Yeah, I'm hoping to come up with a better name for it, but thoughtful Thursday just seems to be, seems to be sticking A lot of times.

Speaker 1: 22:56

When we think about how to improve our happiness, we're focusing on ourselves, and we know that a lot of what brings us joy is connecting to other people in big or small ways and doing acts of kindness, and so there's a lot of evidence out there that doing kindnesses for other people brings us joy.

Speaker 1: 23:14

This is not saying at the expense of taking care of yourself, but rather figuring out ways that you can do that complement your own care of yourself as well. So there is some evidence that shows some small evidence, but it has shown that if you condense these acts of kindness and really focus on doing them in a controlled period of time, what it does is gives you joy, because it's not necessarily spreading it out so that you forget about it, but rather giving you this focus, energy. In reality, there's a lot of evidence that doing this in general is beneficial. So if you find that it's beneficial to do acts of kindness throughout the week rather than condensed to one day and that works for you, great, but for me, this research really is working for me me that every Thursday I try to do four or five acts of kindness and when I introduce this idea to my classes, because I've been having them do this for a while, some people find it overwhelming to try to think of. What can I do for an act of kindness?

Speaker 1: 24:17

Yes, and the good news is it doesn't have to be small, it doesn't have to be big, it doesn't have to be big, it doesn't have to be something monumental, but once you start doing it, you'll realize how easy these come to you. So, just like a couple of really simple ones that I have done by accident that I realized contribute to this is you know, we experienced a lot of rainfall. I live in LA and I the other day someone didn't have an umbrella walking into the grocery store, so I ran up to them and put them under my umbrella. Also, there's a free little library around the corner where people leave and take books, and my daughter has some extra books so I put them there. It's small things like that, like that Bigger things, like I've been my grandmother.

Speaker 1: 25:04

I've been writing letters to her. That started because of this, because we're in a time change so it's harder to talk on the phone. So it can be bigger or smaller, but the idea of thinking of other people and it has brought me such joy. I know it brings my students such joy and I would really encourage anyone to just give it a try. You get one of an act of kindness. That's amazing as well. So just give it, your give it, your go and see what happens.

Speaker 2: 25:26

Yeah, I think the habit of just doing that whenever you can is good advice too. It doesn't have to be on the Thursday, it doesn't have to be only on Thursdays, but I do think it's important for us to think about that, and I just think of the few little times that I've done something and the joy that you see in the other person's face is so. It's just, it's fulfilling, it feels good for you. So I could completely understand the impact of doing that on a weekly basis. I think it's such a simple thing that we can all do.

Speaker 1: 25:54

It's so it really is. The other thing is to get back to the what the hell effect there. You talked about this a little bit but, to back up, this comes from research on dieting, where they found that a lot of people who plan to stick to diets if they quote unquote mess up in the morning, they're more likely to drop the diet for the rest of the day. So, for instance, the example I give is imagine a coworker brings donuts into the office and you had planned to eat a certain way for the day and that doesn't include donuts, and you have one. When you go to lunch you're more likely to say what the hell? I already messed up on my diet.

Speaker 1: 26:32

Yeah, I might as well have the fries instead of the salad. So we do this a lot where you miss something and you're like what the hell? I already messed it up. I'm not going to continue. A couple of weeks after I started sharing with the world that I was going to do this, it got really hard because, you know, my daughter was sick and there was some hard things going on at work. I wasn't as excited about recording these reels anymore and I like wanted to give up, but I felt myself giving into the what the hell effect. So I think, even just knowing about it, I have this little tinge in my spirit that I'm like I don't want to give into the what the hell effect, um, which makes it weirdly motivational. So I hope other people hear it the same way too.

Speaker 2: 27:20

I think we could apply that to so many things. I think of my friend and I. We try to motivate ourselves to, you know, work out a couple of times a week and she tells me not to miss like more than two days of a workout, which I do. It happens, you know, kids happen. Kids get sick and that's life. But I have noticed that when you miss that first day, it's very easy to say on the second day what the hell I missed yesterday, what's one more day? Right, like I'm tired, I'll do tomorrow. But then that missing the second day part leads to missing the third day and the fourth day, and then a week passes and you're like, oops, what just happened? And it really is that mentality of like who cares, it's just one day, I'll miss the second day. Now it's not the end of the world. So I completely understand how that could kind of snowball into more things. It makes total sense.

Speaker 2: 28:05

You know, I think when it comes to well-being, I'm speaking to a lot of parents that just feel overwhelmed that their needs are not met. A lot of I posted about this on my Instagram account this week but a lot of families going through divorces and separations right now that are reaching out saying I don't even know how to take care of my kids because right now nobody's taking care of me. I'm not taking care of myself, everything is a mess, and I just feel that, when it comes to our mental health, is well being aspect, is a way to nurture it and to take care of ourselves. What else are you finding in science, or what's coming up, I guess, in terms of you know, things you're going to share that can really help us, you know, when we're trying to nurture our own well being?

Speaker 1: 28:46

Yes, oh, that's a great question. Well, first, it's okay to not always be shooting for thriving. It's okay to just be surviving at times, and so don't put too much pressure on yourself. If it's not the time, just focus on what you can right now and controlling what you can. It's not always the time to be, you know, changing everything and having a bazillion goals, and so that's. That's okay too. You know, there's a reason that I didn't do this project earlier because I felt like I was underwater, even though I wanted to. So that's okay too.

Speaker 2: 29:16

That's an important message, though, to remind ourselves.

Speaker 1: 29:18

Yes, absolutely. One thing that I really like um, there's a book I read that talked about how, when it feels overwhelming to shoot for happiness, try to shoot for fun instead, because that's something that's more tangible, and so if you're finding it overwhelming to shoot for happiness, I encourage you to shoot for fun. So I've been trying to do this myself. So just to give you one example, I'm an awful cook. I literally can't follow a recipe for the life of me cook. I literally can't follow a recipe for the life of me. And so, making dinner every night for my daughter my husband helps, but we both just don't like it. It's one of our least favorite times of the day. So I decided to try to make it a little bit more fun sometimes. So, for instance, last night we made pizzas. By made, I mean I bought a pre-made crust, I bought the sauce and topping.

Speaker 2: 30:12

That's okay, yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:13

And it turned it into a more enjoyable activity rather than something that I was dreading. And so in that case I'm just shooting for fun, and we know that even by doing that you're really adding a lot. So I think for those people I'd say one be gentle to yourself and be a be gentle to yourself and be. If you're having trouble shooting for happiness, just shoot for fun when you can. Um, because that's something that seems much more tangible to most people, I think that's really good advice.

Speaker 2: 30:39

I really do think. I, I, I am thinking of every single task I have to do in the house that I don't want to the cooking part, the cleaning, the laundry. It never ends. We're five people, the laundry just really never ends.

Speaker 1: 30:51

I can't imagine.

Speaker 2: 30:51

I don't even know how to make that fun. I hate socks. I never find a matching pair. It's just yeah, I'm the wrong person to ask that too.

Speaker 1: 31:00

I hate laundry as well, but there is this idea of something that's called temptation bundling, which is something that you really want to do, and saving that for something that you don't want to do as much. So it was a study out of the University of Pennsylvania where they gave students audiobooks but kept them at the gym, and so they could only listen to them while they were at the gym, and they found that when they did that, people went to the gym a lot more. So I want to say this as a suggestion, noting that I don't always do this well, because I'm also dislike laundry, but I try to save my favorite podcast for one unfolding laundry to make it a little bit more fun for myself. So that idea of temptation bundling is also something that I I know resonates with a lot of people.

Speaker 2: 31:49

I love that. I'm going to try that because I have a pile of laundry on my bed.

Speaker 1: 31:53

I have to fold it, me too At some point.

Speaker 2: 31:57

I want to be mindful of your time, but I also want to take some time to discuss wellness in the workplace because, you know, when it comes to whether it's leaders or employees, I think that what I'm hearing a lot from parents is they don't feel seen. We spoke a little bit about that work, you know family balance, but in the workplace itself, given everything that you're sharing, what are some changes that you would hope would be? You know you would see within the workplace in the near future?

Speaker 1: 32:25

Yeah, that's a great question. You know, one of my favorite sayings that we talk a lot about in my leadership classes is that people don't leave companies, they leave managers, and a lot of the experiences that we have are shaped by who's in charge of our team. Right then? So who's our manager or our leader and there is a ton of research around this idea, but people probably intuitively feel this at work, too is that if you have a manager who is supportive of you and your needs, that is incredibly empowering. Just to give you an example, I report personally as a department chair at my university. I report to my associate dean and I've discussed with him my childcare needs and the balance that I hope to have, and he was incredibly receptive to that, and that makes me even more excited and committed to my job to be working for someone who understands that.

Speaker 1: 33:23

So, as managers and leaders, really finding out about what works for those around us and how to support them to be their best, because when employees feel supported, they are going to be able to support the organization and the team as well, and we know that this is not something that a small portion of employees deal with. A very large portion of employees have responsibilities whether that's child care or elder care or just family care in general that they have to manage. So letting them do that in a way that creates space for them to be great employees is only beneficial to them and you and the organization. So I really hope that that message begins to seep in to more people, and especially as generations of people become leaders and become new managers.

Speaker 2: 34:25

I hope that they bring that in with them and the connection. And I keep thinking of leadership and how I see it. Very similarly, now that I'm in a position where I have a few people on my team and I think of. You know my mom talks about some of her bosses and I have friends who talk about some of their. You know bosses as well, and you have a mix of some who do understand and respect that you have a family and try to say, well, I'll give you some of this freedom, but I really need you to complete some things in return. Right, they have objectives too.

Speaker 2: 34:52

But then I do think there's some that stick within that sort of parenting where it's like I'm the boss, you do what I say. If I said you needed to be in today, you're going to have to do that and I don't care what you need or what you're asking for. That still exists and that just reminds me of that kind of parenting where you don't feel seen, you don't feel validated, you don't feel like you matter. And I just started reading the book called Leaders Eat Last. Yeah, so I just started reading that book and it just makes me think this or somebody who perhaps is an employee whose leader is not really respecting that, and I'm sure it must be a very uncomfortable conversation to the point that you might not even want to have that with your boss, right, but you would need some of that freedom and flexibility too.

Speaker 1: 35:46

Absolutely, absolutely. There's so many lessons from the parenting literature that apply to leadership. It's been fascinating as I read the parenting literature seeing how much there is crossover in the ideas. But you're completely right. The authoritative and people have the mistaken assumption that if you are treating people as people, that it is going to not also mean that you are expecting a lot from them.

Speaker 1: 36:13

And we know from the leadership leadership literature and the parenting literature that that's not true. Those are not opposed to each other and I think you know. To give workplaces credit, more people are treating their employees as though they are whole humans than before. But there are obviously a lot of places where they're still expecting this. We call in the literature the ideal worker, where you are available at all times with no boundaries. We know that's not good for the employee or the company, because people need to be able to recover and detach from work in order to be at their best, but there are many places where that face time is more important than anything else. So we see things changing, but oftentimes not changing enough in some industries and some companies.

Speaker 2: 36:59

What you just mentioned is something that my friend experienced, where, I guess, with technology now and your boss having the ability to text you wherever you are right, and she would come home and she would get messages, you know, at 10 pm, 11 pm, saying something just happened. You need to write this report, it needs to be ready by 7 am tomorrow and it became very overwhelming for her because she was in a higher position at that job. Yes, but then does that necessarily mean that you are always available, um, to do that work? And she really um, it really impacted her mental health a lot. So I do think it's important that I you just touched on that, which is why I wanted to mention that. But having those boundaries you know they don't we can still have boundaries even if we're an employee. We're allowed, I think we're allowed, I don't know. I would feel that we're allowed to state things that we don't want to do, which is work till 11pm at night out to state things that we don't want to do, which is work till 11pm at night.

Speaker 1: 37:57

Yeah, it's definitely there's. There's a challenge in that for some people and that they're worried about am I going to lose my job? I mean, believe me, I would love to say that everybody should be able to say this is the way it's going to be and that's okay. But just in some organizations that is unfortunately not the cultural norm and I encourage people to figure out how can I change that and how can I? A difficult industry to work in. And Shonda Rhimes, who is the powerhouse producer and also an author and just an all-around amazing person. She told a magazine or an article recently that she has in her email signature something to the extent of I don't answer emails after 7pm or on the weekends.

Speaker 1: 38:54

And if you work for me, I suggest that you do the same, and so that's a very tangible example of somebody saying these are my boundaries and I also want them to be your boundaries as well. So somebody who got to a position of power and is establishing not only boundaries for herself, but also helping other people establish boundaries too, which I think is absolutely a role model for how we can all work to help change cultures around us Right.

Speaker 2: 39:17

I love that. So if a parent is listening to this and realizes that they haven't been prioritizing their well-being, they feel overwhelmed with everything. What are some steps that you believe they should be taking to kind of gain a little bit of control and kind of focus and nurture their well-being?

Speaker 1: 39:35

There's a lot of answers to that question, so I don't necessarily have one that's going to work for everybody. But what I will say is to take a step back and figure out what's working and what's not working for you and how you are spending your time. One activity that I do in many of my classes is have people track their activities and their moods for usually a week and it sounds very tedious but as often as you can, writing down what you're doing and how you're feeling and looking for trends. And it's often shocking for people to realize how they think they're spending their time and how they're feeling and looking for trends. And it's often shocking for people to realize how they think they're spending their time and how they're actually spending it and what brings them joy and what doesn't. So if you are saying like I never have enough time, I never get to do what I want for a week or so, just try, you know, if you can, every hour, but if you can't, just as frequently as you can, write down what you're doing and how it's making you feel.

Speaker 1: 40:33

And there are apps. There's one called how we Feel that I think does a really good job of helping you do that, but I think it's one of the most powerful starting points to recognize where you're spending your time, where you're spending your energy, and also what's actually bringing you happiness and what's not, and then making changes based on that. So, as I mentioned earlier, I really struggle with dinner time. So that app how we feel I was using it and it very clearly showed that. So that was something that I focused on. How can I make this better?

Speaker 2: 41:03

Right, the app. For those of you who have been listening, we interviewed Mark Brackett and he mentioned the app, so I have the. I'll put the link in the show notes in case some of you haven't downloaded it. I have the app as well and I love it. It's so simple to use and it shows you patterns, right. So I love the fact that you can notice. Oh yeah, whenever I'm doing this or whenever it's bedtime for me. It was bedtime with three kids. It's when the red started to appear a lot more and I knew that I had to work on that as well. I'm still working on it. It's still in the red, but I don't know how I'm going to.

Speaker 1: 41:35

And it gives you some patterns that are intuitive like that probably was intuitive for you, and some that aren't. So, for instance, I saw that when I walk, I love walking and I don't do it as much as I should, and it showed me that when I was walking more than 30 minutes a day, I was a lot more in the happiness area and so I had made that a priority, where before I would just do it when I could, but now I try to prioritize doing that every day. So it gives you some patterns to confirm what you probably already think and then also to help you realize patterns that you might not be seeing as well.

Speaker 2: 42:08

You know, there's definitely a shift towards people being more aware and conscious of their well-being, and I love that you are sharing all of these tips with us. Thank you for taking the time to chat with me, thank you for the work that you do. I will put the link to your Instagram account and, you know, I really encourage everybody to follow you. I absolutely enjoy everything that you post, so thank you.

Speaker 1: 42:32

Thank you. It's such an honor to be here. I am so excited to get to chat with you anytime, so thank you.