Exploring the Challenges and Solutions of Modern Parenting: Insights from Research

In this episode, Cindy Hovington interviews Kei Nomaguchi and Melissa Milkie about their research on parenthood and well-being. They discuss the concept of intensive parenting and the societal expectations placed on parents, particularly mothers. The conversation explores the pros and cons of intensive parenting and the challenges faced by parents in balancing work and family responsibilities. The need for workplace support and community connections is emphasized, as well as the importance of recognizing the rewards and meaningfulness of parenting. The episode concludes with a call for societal changes to better support parents and create a more balanced and fulfilling parenting experience. The conversation highlights the lack of support and resources for parents, the need for a proactive society, and the impact of supporting parents on children and society as a whole.

Takeaways

• The US mental health system for parents is lacking in support and resources, leaving many individuals to struggle on their own.
• A proactive approach to supporting parents is necessary, rather than waiting for symptoms of mental health issues to arise.
• Supporting parents not only benefits the well-being of the parents themselves but also has a positive impact on their children and society as a whole.

Parenthood and Psychological Well-Being: Clarifying the Role of
Child Age and Parent-Child Relationship Quality

Parenthood and Well‐Being: A Decade in Review

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Parents' emotional lives are so rich. They have everything. They have the stress and the tiredness, and they also have the joy, the happiness, the meaning. So I would love being a parent for that reason. You know there's some low lows, but there's also some really high moments.

Speaker 2: 0:21

Hello, my dear friend, welcome back to another episode of the Curious Neuron podcast. My name is Cindy Havington and I am your host. If you are new here, welcome. This space is all about psychological and emotional well-being for parents and caregivers. I share the science. My background is in neuroscience. I have a PhD in neuroscience where I studied mental health and cognitive abilities and emotions all intertwined into this. Mental health and cognitive abilities and emotions all intertwined into this mental health aspect that we have. And Kirsten and Ron used to be about your children, but now it's about your children a little bit, and mostly you, because I realized that if we are not well, then it makes it much harder to support our kids.

Speaker 2: 0:58

If you are new, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast. Click that button because it allows the podcast to continue, and I'd like to thank the Tannenbaum Open Science Institute as well as the McConnell Foundation. Both of these organizations are supporting the Cures Now podcast and without them this podcast would not be possible. It doesn't pay me, it pays the people that are editing this podcast and putting it all together. I just jump on, I interview. I have a blast doing that. That's the fun part. And then we have people working hard to edit it and put it out there. We have our videos up on YouTube and the audios anywhere that you listen to podcasts. So thank you both to Sadie and to Claudia for the work that you do.

Speaker 2: 1:37

If you are a parent that likes to journal, or if you want to start journaling, I do have the Reflective Parent Journal. I've realized that many parents need some support, and journaling is not just about writing what happened today To me. Journaling is really about knowing how to have a conversation with yourself, knowing how to take a situation and say, okay, did I approach this the right way? Did I set the right boundaries? Did I take on that person's perspective? Or, sometimes, personally, am I happy? And if not, which areas of my life do I need to put more effort into? Or can I, you know, control certain things? Not control certain things, influence certain things? So there's a lot of ways that we can reflect on various aspects of our lives, and so I put together this 100 page journal that you can purchase. It's a PDF and the link is in the show notes, so you make sure that you check it out, and there's a little video as well that describes it. You see all the chapters. I don't want it to be overwhelming. It's not about sitting down and writing page one to a hundred. It's really about saying, today I need to focus on my work-life balance or my relationship, and I'm not sure what to question, and then you can go to that specific section in the journal.

Speaker 2: 2:41

In today's episode, we are talking about parenthood and psychological well-being, and the reason why I was going through some articles as I do on my free time and you know the challenges of parenthood was something I was kind of curious about. Is there research around this? And I came across this article that I'm putting in the show notes, called Parenthood and Psychological Well-Being Clarifying the Role of Child Age and Parent-Child Relationship Quality. I thought that was a really interesting title, so I started reading it and the article is a very long article that just dives into every aspect of parenting and everything that we need to know as parents, and I keep questioning why is this not out there? Well, that's why Curious Neuron exists. So I invited the authors of this paper and they have other amazing papers as well and so today I had the honor of welcoming Dr Kei Namaguchi and Melissa Mielke to this podcast, and we are going to have an amazing conversation around.

Speaker 2: 3:42

How has parenting changed? The day that you know. If you talk to your parents and your grandparents, you know parenting has definitely changed and there's a lot of pressures on parents right now. But let's talk about that and have an open conversation about that, as well as that work-family conflict that we hear about a lot, and that's what today's episode is all about. Just a quick bio on our two guests today. Dr Namaguchi is a professor of sociology at BGSU. Her research focuses on work and family, gender, parenthood, parents and children, families and health and the life course, and Dr Mielke is a professor of sociology as well at the University of Toronto. Both of them had so many insights to share from their research, so it was a really fun conversation. I hope you enjoy this episode and I'll see you on the other side. Welcome back everyone to the Curious Neuron podcast. As promised, I am joined with Kay and Melissa. Welcome both of you to the Curious Neuron podcast.

Speaker 1: 4:37

Thank you. It's wonderful to be here. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 4:41

I think this conversation is long overdue. I'm hearing so much from parents that are truly struggling right now and I think the topic of your paper, that's how I came across your work. So parenthood and well-being a decade in review was such a beautiful synthesis of everything and all the research that is out there that can truly help parents, and I think parents need to hear about the work that you're both doing. I think parents need to hear about the work that you're both doing. So let's start this conversation first by getting to know both of you just a little bit. How did you end up in?

Speaker 3: 5:10

this area of research and what is the work that you do? I actually started my graduate school interested in gender inequality at a workplace, but then, as I study more, the gender inequality starts from on gender differences in child rearing responsibilities. So my interest actually started from graduate school and actually Melissa was one of my professors when I was in grad school, one of my professors when I was in grad school and so we've been sharing the research interests since I was in grad school, which was actually more 20 years ago, wow.

Speaker 2: 6:15

You're officially the second duo of people I invite here that are the graduate student and the professor that join. I didn't know that you guys had worked together that way. Yes, yeah, how did you? So? You've been doing this work for a little while, and what is your? How did you end up in this area?

Speaker 1: 6:35

You know, for the longest time I guess you know, having a kind of a lens on the world as a young person, as a kid and a teenager, the world as a young person, as a kid and a teenager, being raised by a single mom, and a time of like, changing roles for women.

Speaker 1: 6:51

It was quite, you know, an important time in the world, I think, as mothers were entering the workplace in large numbers and kind of what that meant, and I think you know just I had that sense of wanting to know more about changing gender roles and in families and in workplaces for that for a long time. And then at University of Maryland, where I was for a long time, I was fortunate enough to work with Suzanne Bianchi, who's a demographer, and we looked at time use and changes in how parents spend their time across the decades and that was super powerful and we just had some surprising findings. Kay was involved in that project too as a grad student and you know from there it's just been an amazing privilege to be able to assess parents and their lives and to try to support them through research and pointing out the things that are vital for parents.

Speaker 2: 7:49

I think that's a perfect segue into our conversation today, because I think this whole conversation stems from what I hear from my generation of parents and then my parents, where they say, like what happened? Why is there such a big shift in how people are parenting today? And I've had this conversation over and over again with my in-laws and my mom as well. My mom was a single mom as well and I saw you know how heavy it was on her and we had my father just left and he wasn't supportive at all. So it was really hard and she got judged so much.

Speaker 2: 8:22

But just to say, all this, you know, comes from a place where we've noticed these terms positive parenting, conscious parenting, responsive parenting and I keep trying to pinpoint what I feel like the pendulum has swung to a certain side a little bit heavily, with parents where there's just a lot of stress on their end. And when I came across this term intensive parenting it just made a bit more sense to me. So can you describe intensive parenting and what it is, and how did we get there as a society?

Speaker 3: 8:54

you know, over the years in mothering and I would say that that's this dominant cultural message regarding appropriate mothering or parenting in current US society that really expects mothers to heavily devote their time, energy, emotion and physical labor and money in raising their children, to ensure that their children will grow up to be healthy and thriving academically and physically and emotionally.

Speaker 2: 9:41

So there's a lot of pressure on parents, especially mothers um, yes, and what's interesting is this shift to what you just described, where there's also a lot more moms who are working. There's a, you know, huge difference between when my mom was working. How did that and how did that come about where they're working now and also expected, I guess you know, carry this heavy burden or workload.

Speaker 1: 10:07

It's really, you know, powerful to think of the responsibilities on mothers in particular to contribute financially, to have a career, to have, you know, friends and a leisure life, but also to be doing this intensive mothering and spending the time and the emotions and the energy and putting the child at the center and anticipating their needs and trying to make sure they're successful. It's like exhausting, right and really impossible and the problem-.

Speaker 2: 10:38

Thank you for saying that.

Speaker 1: 10:39

Yeah, I mean, I guess we'll go into the problems of it, but I guess you were asking how did we get here?

Speaker 1: 10:44

Right, and I don't think there's been like a release of that pressure valve where, you know, mothers have been expected to add more and more and more, and fathers have contributed more over time as well, but not enough. Or mothers and fathers, but it's really these larger structures that need to change in order to allow parents to have a, you know, a quality of life that is important for not only them but for the kids and for those kids' futures. So so, really, we got here because workplaces haven't moved fast enough to accommodate and to be proactive in supporting families, and we got here because of, I think, increases in inequalities that make parents, and particularly mothers, feeling like responsible. Oh, I have to make sure this child achieves in this world, but there's no guarantees and it's harder and harder to think about a good job and a stable job, all these pressures that come down to an individual mother being thought to be the one that should be doing it all.

Speaker 2: 11:54

Right, you know, I think of again what Kay described and I think I see pros and cons to this. I think about the way that I was raised and when it comes to emotions, for instance, you know, a lot of us were not given that guidance in terms of how to cope with emotions and many of us now struggle with knowing how to manage, you know, emotions or cope with them. And we think back to you know how we were raised and just told to like suck it up and move on and not given any strategies. So I see a really big difference now in parents in the questions they ask me. They want to know how to support their child, they want to know how to comfort their child, which many of us didn't experience. So are there pros and cons to this kind of parenting now that we're seeing in society?

Speaker 3: 12:38

Well in general. So this intensive mothering sort of includes the child-centered approach Right and also paying attention to each child's needs and in general that's a good thing. Research tends to show that, compared to more authoritarian parenting, that compared to more authoritarian parenting, this more child-centered, responsive, authoritative parenting tend to relate to better child development. So I think it's more about when it comes to the extreme pressure to mother and those extreme involvement you know too much involvement then there are more negatives start coming out.

Speaker 1: 13:34

I'm just going to add on to Kay's really thoughtful answer. You know for sure, you know a parent, or parents, are super important in being responsive and, like you said, that emotional part and like being able to not be neglectful but be, you know, really paying attention to the child's inner life. And at the same time, I think that it doesn't only have to be the mother right, or a small number, a unit that's just a nuclear family. It really should be, you know, thought of as like the broader community who are raising and caring for a child and, if so, putting a child at the center. But let's look beyond just the mother and see all the people that can care deeply for a child and care properly.

Speaker 1: 14:27

And you know, child also needs some time not being the center of attention and you know thinking about other, you know other people and so on. So I think I think there is that component of being able to provide all that for the child but at the same time thinking about broader communities and beyond the family, beyond the mother. That is the one that's investing so deeply. The other thing I worry about with intensive mothering is it's really just focused on one's own child and so we forget what's better for the group of children, the generation of children, and sometimes that gets lost and so it's really individualized and we need to be thinking broadly. What can we do to support all children and what policies are important to support all children and parents?

Speaker 2: 15:21

You know you've touched on sort of like the, the, this intensive mothering where we, I think, as as parents too, some questions I've received are around like how much time should I be spending with my child, or is, uh, is it okay if there's a day that I can't, you know, play with my kid, or I just had a baby, and can I step away? Is it okay? Like? I'll receive a lot of those questions and I think it falls back on what you're both mentioning right, like this intensive having to be there all the time, and I think we've forgotten that there's also a need and an importance to that child being on their own. A little bit Again, I think back to my own upbringing. I was at my grandparents' house all the time and my grandmother would give me breakfast and say, out, you go no-transcript. Like they do think that it's important for the child's development, but what do you know from your own research or from studies out there that would kind of give them a bit of that peace of mind?

Speaker 3: 16:43

Well, there are lots of studies showing that mothers suffer from a sense of guilt when they feel that they are not spending enough time with their kids, or they are working too much, or they are bringing work to home. They are bringing work to home, like taking email and sometimes those being distracted by work, and then it seems that the mothers are more likely than fathers to feel guilty about it and those sense of guilt really affects those mothers' sense of well-being.

Speaker 2: 17:27

Right, and I'm assuming their mental health as well, right.

Speaker 1: 17:30

Yeah, and knowing that those expectations are unrealistically high might be helpful, that you know, and to know that there's other people that can.

Speaker 1: 17:39

You know a mother can be there without necessarily being physically present, but having other people that are, you know, quality caregivers there for when they're young or when they're older, just checking in but also making time for for themselves and for the community, um, for their partners and for other important people, and I think it's important for kids to see that.

Speaker 1: 18:02

Right, but, um, but I think there's a way to know that, uh, the mother isn't the only important one and it's really like the quality of the interactions that are important. So when a mother's there, it's probably good to be there, like actually be there, focused and paying attention if possible, or involving the kid in in some of the work of the home that you know has to be, has to be done. So it's it's not an easy job, but just knowing the expectations are unrealistically high and thinking about other people that can be brought in, like the dad, the grandparents, the extended family, the friends, the neighbors, ideally ask for more at their workplace, ask for what is what should be a natural given already in the society for parents, but isn't always the case.

Speaker 2: 19:04

Yeah, and I think you're right with what you said before in terms of the delay that we're not seeing. You know what the kind of support that should be there, the workplace it's starting. I know that there are lots of companies now that offer this mental health. You know what the kind of support that should be there, the workplace it's starting. I know that there are lots of companies now that offer this mental health. You know some platforms that exist out there. I know I'm in Canada and I know there are some here in Canada.

Speaker 2: 19:22

But you know I had put out a survey a couple of weeks ago and asked parents, like what do they need in terms of the workplace, like what's missing for them, and the word that came up we had 80 something responses and it was flexibility. That word just kept coming up over and over again. And especially now, out of the pandemic, we have the ability to work from home. Some of us not everybody, but there's a little bit more of that but it's just not enough for some parents. They just feel that if they are getting that flexibility and working from home, then they're getting text messages from, or emails from, their office at, you know, nine o'clock at night and 10 o'clock at night, and this has become the norm now because there aren't any more boundaries. So that work life conflict that you referenced to, kay, just really is becoming more intense. From what I'm hearing from parents, are we seeing this coming? I'm just curious. Is there any research around that, coming out of the pandemic Like worsening?

Speaker 3: 20:19

Yeah, the flexibility is a very tricky situation, like you mentioned, because, yes, parents like to have flexibility in terms of flexibility in time, in terms of flexibility in time when we work so that we can go and pick our kids.

Speaker 2: 20:40

Pick up our kids, yeah.

Speaker 3: 20:42

Or take our kids to doctor checkups so that we can kind of arrange our work time around the kids' needs but at the same time, like you mentioned, that means that we may need to work at 9 pm.

Speaker 2: 21:00

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 21:01

And so it's almost like feeling as if we are working all the time.

Speaker 2: 21:06

Right.

Speaker 3: 21:07

So it's always. The balance seems to be really difficult. So parents say parents like to have flexibility in time and place to work. At the same time that doesn't reduce the amount of work that parents need to do, and then that leads to overworking. Overlord sense of overlord.

Speaker 1: 21:33

You know, what would be wonderful is what a lot of people have been talking about is a four-day work week and a four-day work week for the same pay, right?

Speaker 1: 21:41

So just to be clear, it's less work, less work time, and that's really what I think we need for everyone's benefit, but particularly for parents, right, and a lot of parents, I think, was. We did some interviews in the pandemic and it was really tough to have kids at home doing school and for parents who, when kids could go back to school and parents were still able to work from home, they loved that because they had that community of carers who were the teachers and the you know, coaches and the people taking care of kids post-school. I think less work is what the society could move toward pretty easily and that there's been some experimental work that looks at that and finds that it doesn't affect the company's bottom line and workers are happier, they don't leave, and in all kinds of occupations not just professional occupations, but different kinds of occupations that we might not think of and it's able to happen, and I think that would be fantastic.

Speaker 2: 22:42

I think a lot of people are nodding their heads as they listen to this. I do think that would be an amazing week. I even think back to some companies that might hesitate around that and say, well, I need them to produce work. But thinking about parents who feel more supported by their workplace, have the freedom to do what they need on that extra day, either with their family, their child or for themselves? I can see we already see it now. When people started to work from homes, I heard from friends and family members that they were more productive because they were able to run a load of laundry in the morning or get the groceries done and then come home and start their work you know day and just felt more at peace with their time and more in control of that. So it completely makes sense what you just said. I wish. I wish we could just snap our fingers and it would happen right it could happen.

Speaker 1: 23:28

It's there's, there's some movement, and we hope that it does, because it it does seem like a win-win I wonder if schools would change to that too yeah, I know that's a big question. Right yeah, schools, right yeah, keep the schools in five days yeah, exactly yes, kids needs to go to school.

Speaker 2: 23:50

Yeah, that's what the parents are saying now. No, no, no, Cindy, not schools just work.

Speaker 1: 23:54

Just work. But, you know, just thinking about like having other people, children having some kind of care structure, whether it's like a formal education on that fifth day, but a care structure available, because I think that's really what happened when schools closed, that we realized, oh yeah, that's care too. That's, you know, just serving two functions.

Speaker 2: 24:17

Yeah, I get that. You know, one thing I really enjoyed from this paper and I'll have the link to your paper in the show notes, because I know parents really like to dig a little deeper but you talk about parental strains and what you opened my eyes to is that they're, you know, depending on culture or whether you're married or a single parent, or part of if you're LGBTQ, you receive or you have very different strains. Can you talk? Maybe just let's touch on this topic because I want to make sure that everybody feels heard in this podcast episode when we're talking about the ability that we're able to raise our kids. So is there anything that you can say towards that?

Speaker 3: 24:53

Some of the research that shows. Focusing on LGBTQ parents, like gay parents and lesbian parents, some of the work really emphasized that how finding childcare centers where people are supportive of LGBTQ families, it's actually a big challenge for LGBTQ parents parents because they like to make sure that their kids are supported by people, caregivers and classmates, who really understand diverse family forms. And so there are some extra layer, you know layer of challenges that you know just finding. You know those. You know child care, you know, for gay parents, gay and lesbian parents.

Speaker 1: 26:04

And finding like the right neighborhood and the right community is really can be really challenging, you know, depending on where people are located and we know there's quite a diversity of acceptance and in different areas around, say, north America and so, you know, once people become parents then of course it's not just for them, but it's for this, this child too. They want it to be the best, most supportive community. So, like Kate, you know smartly said, it's like additional layers of challenge and it's unfortunate that that people are facing those challenges. But at the same time, hopefully, there have been some, you know, significant changes for a large group of people recently. A large group of people recently.

Speaker 2: 26:53

Right, right, you know I think about these. You know parental strains and and just the, the amount of stress it's I, I, I shared this with my community this week. I have been getting so many emails this past month from parents who just feel overwhelmed and and, and they're using words like you know, I'm burnt out, I have nothing left to give, and it's just it seems to be. You know I'm burnt out, I have nothing left to give, and it's just, it seems to be. You know, there seems to be many layers to this A lot of parents struggling in their relationships, going through divorce.

Speaker 2: 27:23

Some parents are newly single parents and don't know how to navigate that. There's just a lot going on and I don't know if it comes and goes, if this is because I I, you know I've been part of this parenting community for a very little, short amount of time and I I don't know if it's like a an ebb and flow kind of thing, but parents are really struggling right now. Um, is there anything that you can share? You know from your research or insights that you feel parents should know about that might support their well-being?

Speaker 3: 27:55

Well, so, like you said, I think in a different way, parents have a different, slightly different challenges. So, but in just, I guess you know, in general, I think, like we talked about earlier, I think the social support is really important and so reach out to friends or extended families and get help from other folks, and so just don't just think that everything needs to be solved by themselves.

Speaker 2: 28:33

Right.

Speaker 3: 28:34

And so we really, parents, really need help around people around us.

Speaker 2: 28:45

You've both mentioned that several times now in terms of the community that the child is in, in terms of getting support, and it's not just the mom on her own. I just want to share that. I know like lots of moms feel guilt around that as well, right Of asking for help, of guilt or even loneliness. I had an episode with two researchers a couple weeks ago where we spoke about, like, how these feelings of loneliness are very common in new parents and new moms and some parents just are not close to any family and just feel that there's nobody around them to support them. What can they do if they do feel that guilt or if they truly are alone in the area that they're in?

Speaker 1: 29:25

Yeah, it's really tough. It's really tough, you know, it's like a double edged sword sort of the social media and the connection to others through online means, because everyone experienced that in the pandemic. It was like a great way to actually connect to people when you had no other choices. But the in-person connection is absolutely vital and I think it's been harder for people to get that, get it back and get it as parents. There was a fascinating study by Mario Small in New York City. He looked at childcare centers and he's interested in how people connect to each other and he found that like the child care centers where they had one small, like little window of drop off and pickup time, all the parents got to see each other and because of that they really really felt supported, versus like a much more flexible you know, opening and closing kind of thing and just that.

Speaker 1: 30:22

Those kinds of connections are absolutely imperative.

Speaker 1: 30:24

Like you're bringing this new being into the world and you don't know a lot and you know it's a new world and you know even you know your own mother probably doesn't, can't tell you how to, you know, do certain things because the world's different and it's tough, and like those in-person connections I think are vital. I also think they're harder because most people are walking around with looking at that six inch by three inch little box of their phone and it's really a problem, like I think, for parents. They have to now monitor their own kids, like screen time and how they're connecting to other people, and this is like a new problem for for parents and but they have to monitor their own in the sense of like them, for for parents and but they have to monitor their own in the sense of, like, what am I really focused on right now? Like why am I not talking to the person next to me or the kid or whoever? Um, those are the kinds of things that I think can really be helpful. So you know, not to put one more thing on parents, I just think that like looking up in the world around and seeing who who's right there to be, like talking to you in the kid, or talking to you and and and making those in person kind of connections in whatever way is possible, are quite vital. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 31:37

I think you're reminding us to be mindful of that right, to be mindful of the time we take to make those connections, and it's not about adding another burden, I think, to, and it's not about adding another burden, I think, to parents.

Speaker 2: 31:46

It's just about being aware of it and being at the doctor's office with your child rather than looking at our phones and browsing through Facebook or Instagram.

Speaker 2: 31:56

I think what you just said is a really important reminder to say hi to the parent beside you, right To smile at them, and I think that's modeling very important social skills for our kids as well. And I think it just feels good, I think, as a parent, even if you see a parent who's struggling with their child, who's having really big emotions and you know that parent is probably, you know, hating themselves in their mind and then being really negative and saying like, why are you doing this in front of everyone? I think just giving them a smile or a connection of like do you need help or can I? You know, I think that's really important, melissa, I think what you just said is just so powerful because we are stuck looking at that very small device that makes us feel connected when, in the end, we are feeling more lonely than ever when we're, you know, more connected, and it's not you connected and it's not, you know, it's not our, it's not like an individual's fault, like it's truly honestly like right, everything is through that device.

Speaker 1: 32:51

Now, yeah, our like we're sort of forced in a way for not it's not just like looking on social media, right, but it's like okay that's how you're gonna make your doctor's appointment. That's how you're gonna make your airline reservation.

Speaker 1: 33:03

That's how you're gonna to make your doctor's appointment. That's how you're going to make your airline reservation. That's how you're going to um, you know, do your shopping or or, or whatever all these things, and it's um, it's really shifted the ground, I think underneath parents to to like not be looking in the world, but they're literally like looking in a tiny box, for the world is through that box. It's really tough.

Speaker 2: 33:25

I get that. You know, when it comes to there's this term that you were talking about in your paper and it's the stress process model and we're talking about like a reward, you know, the reward of parenting, and I think it's so interesting. I have three kids and you have days where you just the day ends and you're like, wow, I survived. I survived this day, I made it. Everybody was fed, they're in their PJs, they're in bed, this is a success, but how did I make it? And it's this constant balance or the back and forth between how chaotic it is and how difficult it is, but then how satisfying it is. You know, sometimes, when you have those days where everything goes well, what have you learned through your research? And you know, in terms of this constant balancing between the reward and the what's the opposite of that for parents, that satisfaction, right, the demands.

Speaker 1: 34:20

The demands.

Speaker 2: 34:20

Thank you, yes, the men thank you.

Speaker 3: 34:25

yes, well, you know, in research actually, the majority of parents do report that they are happy when they spend time with kids.

Speaker 3: 34:45

Although also report that they are stressful, not stressed out, and many parents report that it's meaningful when they spend time with kids, although kind of exhausted. And so I think sometimes the researchers tend to forget to measure the positive part. We tend to forget to measure the positive part, we tend to focus on the difficult part. But this makes sense because we like to find the issues and how to fix it. But, at the same time, what I always surprise is that a lot of parents actually acknowledge that they enjoy time with kids, and how much meaning, meaningfulness, um, at the end of the day, um, or maybe at the end of the week or right now maybe not every day, but you know some moment.

Speaker 3: 35:42

Oh, okay, it's great, right? Yeah, but it's true.

Speaker 1: 35:46

I really agree with both of you that parents emotional lives are so rich. They have everything. They have the stress and the tiredness and they also have the joy, the happiness, the meaning. So like I would love being a parent for that reason. You know there's some low lows, but there's also some really high moments and, like you, just it's such a great thing yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:08

I was surprised I don't know if it was this review paper in particular or one of your individual papers where you spoke about the age of the child and how that made a difference. So I from what I recall it was that the satisfaction was higher, higher when kids were young, is that? So I know many parents in this community have very young kids and I know we're in the moment and we're in the heat of everything and it's it's a big struggle and of course, it's meaningful and it's satisfying on some days. But I feel like they might have thought, just like I did, that it gets easier. Am I thinking the wrong thing?

Speaker 3: 36:45

When you think about those everyday physical work. Yes, it's hard when kids are young, but at the same time, young kids love you unconditionally. Oh, yes, right, I mean they need parents. They rely on you and they love you. Is that what's going to change? Well, you know you talk to parents with teenagers and they will tell you enjoy. They do say enjoy before, because they get old.

Speaker 2: 37:24

Yes, yes, yes, enjoy, not now. They do say enjoy it before, because they get old.

Speaker 3: 37:26

Yes, yes, yes. So I think you know, when kids get older, you know it gets more difficult in terms of relationship. Let their kids make decisions and we have to sort of sit back and try to, even if we think that's a wrong decision. But well, we have to find a way, okay, when to intervene and when we let them do what they try to do, and I think it's more stressful in that sense.

Speaker 2: 38:12

I get that. Well, I guess parents now that are listening to this are going to appreciate today a little bit more. I was really surprised, but the way that you just described it, it makes sense, I guess, when you think about that satisfaction and that, the feeling, that meaningful feeling with our young kids. We get a lot of time with them, so, as hard as it can be, I think we need to remind ourselves that we're not going to have this much time. When they're older, like you said, you know they might have other people to hang out with and and, and I think it's, you know, a really important reminder to enjoy this moment that we're you, you know, even with our small kids, like it's a meaningful time, that connection piece right.

Speaker 2: 38:49

I want to make sure that I, you know I respect your time and I don't want to take too much of your time, but I'm really enjoying this conversation and I think you know for me, I really wanted to focus on this whole focus on the modern day parenting and how this influences our ability to raise our children, and I think what you've shared through this paper and the work is that you know we are putting a lot of pressure on ourselves and I think of the parents now that just feel this amount of stress and pressure. From what I've learned from you both of you today, is that we really need to step back and ask for help. Is that a good one sentence summary? Am I missing anything to that very simplified summary?

Speaker 1: 39:32

I think yes, and also we need to push for our organizations and our governments to make the changes that are gonna support parents so parents don't have to ask for help directly, but it's just already there in the fabric of society. You know. Better work conditions, more flexibility, whatever parents need less work, more flexible and easy and high quality and free childcare those are things like that really will help the kids, the parents, the society and parents shouldn't have to. Things like that really will help the kids, the parents, the society and parents shouldn't have to ask for that. You know it should be, it should be in there. But until we're at a better place for parents, then yeah, just connecting as much as possible to others and knowing that they're they shouldn't be the only ones responsible that they. They need to find those who can help. You know, raise the child and make it a village and get in the places that are going to allow that to happen.

Speaker 2: 40:32

Just out of curiosity, with what you just described, are there certain countries that are doing this and seeing the impact on parents? I'm just thinking about the difference. Here In Canada we have most of us have a year off. We can have up to 18 months off after giving birth and I only learned about two or three years ago that it wasn't the same, you know, with our neighbors.

Speaker 1: 40:56

I mean, I feel like these are very significant aspects of a new parent's life this time that they can get yeah, I, I just because I am a american but living in canada and I've made the transition, like after I had my kids in the us, where it was really hard because there it wasn't a you know, oh, here's your, your paid leave or whatever um, where both my husband and I took pay cuts because we wanted to be able to be there some of the time and work less and also, just, you know, got up super early in the morning to fit everything and all that.

Speaker 1: 41:31

We didn't have that. And coming to work in Canada and seeing not only is it, you know, paid to a certain level right for a long time which is amazing and should be in the US S as well where it's only covers some workers in the U S, I mean, it's unpaid and so on but the thing that really shocked me was that, um, like, say, a woman didn't have to go and say tell their employer, oh, I'm going to do this or that, like they would just go through the government. The government's like, okay, this employee is going to be gone, and it wasn't even like a negotiation, where in the US it's still like much more on the individual and it's really hell, like it's bad, it's really bad for those parents with fewer resources.

Speaker 1: 42:14

They either don't get it or they have to push and figure out something on their own. And it's so tough, like it's crazy.

Speaker 2: 42:23

I think to everything you just described as well, and I really feel that as a mental health system, anywhere that we are, we're very reactive right. We wait until that parent feels like they have symptoms of depression or Google it to figure out, like, do I have this? Do I have postpartum anxiety or depression? And we don't offer the right tools to be proactive about this and we don't make the right changes within our society to be preventative when it comes to that. Like, I'm assuming everything you just described is what you would want to see in that sort of more of the proactive society when it comes to supporting parents.

Speaker 1: 42:57

Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 2: 42:59

Yes, yeah, it's really good for everyone.

Speaker 1: 43:02

It's good for everyone the kids and then as those kids grow into healthy, you know, future workers and citizens like that. We really need to support those that are giving that care not just to kids but also to elderly right that's a perfect place to end this conversation when you say that it's good for everyone.

Speaker 2: 43:25

I think that's the opening line to your abstract and your article that I'm sharing with everyone, and you emphasize, how you know, taking care of the parent's well-being. That trickles down to their kids, and we really need to think of the child's welfare and their health as well and the impact we would have as a society if we started taking care of parents a little bit more or a lot more. I would have to say Thank you to both of you for joining me today. I truly appreciated this conversation and the work that you do is so important for parents. Thank you for both, you know, for both of you for doing the kind of work that you do.

Speaker 3: 43:55

Well, thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 43:58

Thank you so much, Cindy.

Speaker 2: 43:59

I really hope you enjoyed this conversation and I will see you next Monday. I hope you have a beautiful and lovely week. Bye, thank you.