[00:00:00] Lori: Gender disparities extend far beyond salary discussions. In fact, studies show that women are less likely to initiate negotiations, successfully negotiate work roles, or gain favorable outcomes, when it comes to work-life balance. Think home chores. And if that does not catch your attention, maybe this fact will. A recent study from Boston College's Cooperation Lab found that the gender gap in negotiation starts to show up in children as young as age eight. Whether you're a solopreneur who wants to learn how to leverage negotiation tactics to strengthen your brand presence and skyrocket sales, or you're looking to excel your career and secure the compensation you deserve, today's episode is one you won't want to miss. Stay tuned, friend, for an exciting program as we focus on narrowing the gender negotiation gap.
[00:00:55] Nola: Welcome to Sticky Brand Lab, where we bridge the gap between knowledge and action by providing you with helpful information, tips, and tools from entrepreneurs and other experts, so you can quickly and easily jumpstart your site business. We're your hosts. I'm Nola Boea, and this is my co-host, Lori Vajda. Hey, Lori.
[00:01:11] Lori: Hi, Nola. Do you know what occasion March 15th, 2023 recognizes?
[00:01:20] Nola: Nope. Do tell.
[00:01:22] Lori: Thanks for asking. It's the Equal Pay Day. Do you know why that's the date? Oh, and by the way, just for reference, that date actually changes almost every year.
[00:01:35] Nola: Well, you got me again.
Why is that date?
[00:01:38] Lori: It's because that's the date that symbolizes how far into the year women must work in order to earn what men earned the previous year.
[00:01:49] Nola: So you mean that women have to work 15 months in order to equal the pay that men earn in 12. Is that right?
[00:01:58] Lori: When you put it that way? Yes. And speaking of data, the study that I mentioned at the start was the first of its kind to identify a gender gap in negotiation among children. Can you believe that?
[00:02:14] Nola: Yeah, I was really floored by that statement for sure.
[00:02:18] Lori: Well, here's some more information. According to the study, researchers found that the gap appeared when girls who participated in that study were asked to negotiate with a male evaluator. In fact, the head researcher, associate professor of psychology and neuroscience, Katherine McAuliffem, she stated, we found that consistent with adult work, girls asked for less than boys when negotiating with a man. We did not see this gender gap when children were negotiating with a woman.
[00:02:51] Nola: I find that so insightful.
[00:02:53] Lori: I find it so depressing.
[00:02:55] Nola: I know. Unfortunately, it seems that the findings mirror the dynamics of the negotiation gap that persists between men and women in the workforce right now. In fact, the researchers recommend teaching young girls to advocate for themselves in the context of negotiation as early as elementary school.
[00:03:12] Lori: I'm for it so much so because I didn't learn how to negotiate anywhere. It's kind of like you put it out there and just do it and you'd have no idea if you're doing it correctly. So one of the questions that came up as a result of that interview was, could this be a cultural thing for girls?
[00:03:34] Nola: Yeah, I think there has to be. From my own experience, I didn't learn how to negotiate until adulthood and I'm still really shaky at it. I still find it difficult. What about you?
[00:03:45] Lori: I wonder though, if it's really a cultural thing, a gender thing, and I'm so glad that we have a guest here to talk about that today. So we're going to definitely want to ask her about that.
[00:03:57] Nola: Absolutely. Because clearly the need for skill development is imperative and to help us, and you, listener, understand the art and science, so to speak, of negotiations, we have brought in an expert. Meet Andi Haddad, a highly accomplished professional specializing in vendor relations, negotiations, and B2B partnerships with a passion for fostering strong business connections. Andi has forged a successful career dedicated to driving mutually beneficial collaborations in the corporate landscape. Her result-oriented approach has consistently led to increased efficiencies, cost savings, and innovative product offerings for businesses. Andi has an exceptional talent for identifying strategic vendors and navigating complex negotiations to ensure advantageous outcomes for all parties involved. Welcome Andi.
[00:04:45] Andi: Hi, glad to be here today.
[00:04:47] Lori: Hello.
[00:04:48] Nola: Yes. I'm so glad you're here. Tell us and our listeners about your career and side business journey and how that contributed to the development of your professional negotiation skills or vice versa.
[00:05:00] Andi: So, I started my tenure with a large convenience and travel stop business in their fuel transport division. And I actually started answering the phones and I just took the first job I could get in the door with. I was desperate in a personal life situation where I was down to only my income and it was super important to me to get a job with benefits. And so that was my first corporate role. Five days later, I was promoted and I was dispatching 83 stores in 15 States across the country. And five days later, I had no idea that we delivered fuel on trucks to stores. Wow. I just had no clue. So it was very fast, very little training, definitely thrown into the deep end and had to figure a lot of things out, but I was working 16-hour days for about six months, and then I finally had to wave my hands and be like, okay, the white flag is up, I need more training. I've taken myself as far as I can go. Please help me.
That was really the first time I had to go negotiate something in the corporate world, in that regard of just advocating for myself and going, okay, I'm surviving over here, but it's terrible. Terrible work life balance, my skill sets are not that of somebody who's honed in the field and I need more. I either need less responsibility and some coaching or some coaching. So what can we do? So we narrowed my region and put me with a different manager that gave me a lot of one-on-one training and held that role in total for about two and a half years. And then they promoted me to an analyst. And I started by peeling back layers of decision makers and the procurement process, also trying to identify opportunities to drive enterprise value among that supply chain section.
Then over time that wielded kind of itself into the vendor relationship role, where I was managing a network of 300 vendors across the country to move fuel on a daily basis and to do it at the lowest cost. And that's where negotiation skills were honed for me was becoming more female friendly, but a lot of times I would negotiate over email because my name is a male name and people call me sir over email. So I would frequent not answer the phone and specifically respond to emails if they had never met me. And finally, I was like, okay, you got to stop doing this. This is crazy, but was part of the skill-building process.
And in that time also started a business with my ex. We had a restaurant together, had a second restaurant together, ended up closing that out of the results of COVID and just kind of the wrong season. Business was successful, but it was a partnership. Whereas our first restaurant was very singular in nature. Yes, we had a landlord, but we were in control of the business and we were able to run it as we saw fit. The second one was more in a partnership with an organization as a service to them. And while there were many financial gains that were negotiated to be put in that position, to start that business, being in business with somebody that is not in the same business as you, is so challenging. So if there's any listeners out there that are debating that, I can speak from experience over here and say, don't try your best not to. Also making the decision to close that at a reasonable time and not hesitating on that. It's okay to say this isn't right, right now. This isn't right for me. That's okay. I think that's something I've been better at over the last few years.
That all transpired during my tenure there, which was nearly 10 years. Was recruited for a position earlier this year, um, actually went to that interview. It was for a different role, but it sounded like something I wanted to do. In the interview, I just wasn't sold on the position. The challenges that I was going to have to face over the first, probably six to 12 months were just challenges I wasn't ready to be in. My position before was very autonomous. I just wasn't prepared to deal with the challenges that were going to come, even though it was going to be a big career move. And I told the interviewer at the time who was male, I said, you know, I don't think I want this job. And he came back and he said, well, what if I created you a role? And created the role that I'm in today. And that was a niche of managing vendor relations for all of the indirect spend projects for a large engine services and manufacturing company.
[00:09:17] Nola: Wow. Another male-dominated industry.
[00:09:20] Andi: Another male-dominated industry. Most of my conversations are with men. So, I think not being afraid to kind of dabble into the hobby side of the relationship is okay and build some connection and trust, for sure, and that's become a central in developing negotiation skills is building relationship.
[00:09:38] Lori: What I love, Andi, about your story is that you have truly real-world experience. And you have it representing companies and then you have it representing your side business, the restaurant business.
So you have been on both sides, right? I love that. Taking that into consideration, your vast knowledge and experience, have you experienced a difference in dynamics between the way men do negotiations and women do negotiations?
[00:10:10] Andi: Absolutely. And it's something I've probably just become more natural with. So, I used to wait for an offer. And now I take the first swing. That's something I think we, as women, hesitate to do. We go like, what are you going to shoot with and we'll come back. And now I take the first swing and I swing it hard. I'm swinging for the fence. Go farther, bigger, further than you thought you would ever want to go because where you're trying to get to, you got to shoot way past that to get back to where you want to be. When women negotiate, we want to give reasons why we want what we want. We need to stop doing that. I do not have to justify my want for anyone or anything for any reason.
[00:10:51] Nola: Yikes!
[00:10:52] Lori: I love that. That is so empowering. Yeah. What a quote statement right there.
[00:10:58] Andi: And we are horrible at it because, and it's our emotion side of things, women are more emotional creatures. We just are. And we want to make the person believe that we deserve what we're asking for. So we're trying to justify. And I have stopped doing that in my personal life, in my business life, in career negotiations and business to business. Like, stop telling them why you want it. Just tell them you want it.
[00:11:25] Nola: Was there something that triggered you to make that decision?
[00:11:27] Andi: Yes. A negotiation with my nanny.
[00:11:33] Nola: Love it. Do tell.
[00:11:36] Andi: Nothing very personal and she's younger. She's fresh out of college and she's great. And she is amazing with my kids. So I cannot speak highly of the job and relationship that she has built with them this summer. But she has moved right before she started this job, she has a relationship, she's a teacher on summer break. We originally agreed to four days a week and she goes, can I talk to you for a minute? And she kind of danced around the subject. And I was like, are you quitting? Are you wanting to change the arrangement, which was four days a week? Or do you want to say, never mind? Like, and she was like, well, I just don't have time to get my classroom ready. And this and this and she was trying to give me all the logical reasons that she didn't want to work as much as she had agreed to. And I said, stop. Right now. You have to tell me nothing. Please stop. Don't. It could be because you don't want to work what agreed to or don't want to fulfill the contract that I obliged to and I want to change the terms,
[00:12:31] Lori: wow.
[00:12:33] Andi: And it stuck out so powerfully to me. And so I said, all you have to say is I want to work less days or I want to work less hours or X, Y, Z, whatever you want the outcome to be. That's all you have to communicate. And go, okay, I am breaching the contract, whatever. In business, you know, sometimes there's repercussions that happen out of that, but I want to change the contract. Here's what I want. Can we do it? Or can we meet in the middle? Or am I out? Like you have options. As women though, we just want to be accepted and we want them to feel like it matters to them. And that we just want to give this justification around our desires.
[00:13:07] Lori: I can relate to it. I think I have done that for all the reasons that you said. What I hear you saying is that puts you in a one down position. Here's an example of maybe less is more. Say less to move forward and let the other person ask what information they need in order to help make the decision. Don't offer it before it's asked. Yeah.
[00:13:31] Andi: At the end of the day, we want what we want, and it is nobody else's business why. Whether that's more money, different work environment, benefits, allowances, contract relationships in B2B. We have drivers and then contract in B2B, it's a little bit different than when you're talking about over here in career negotiations. But man, we don't have to justify it. If I want to work from home every day of the week, and I want that out of my role. Period. If I want X money, period. It's not because I can't pay my bills or I don't have to tell them that. And even if they ask, I don't always have to volunteer that information. And a lot of times it's going to be in your favor not to. But it comes down to acceptance and we want acceptance and we want to feel validated. I think seeking validation outside of ourselves, especially in the male-female negotiation relationships, it's so hard because we want to feel validated. And so we give all these reasons to validate, to support that.
[00:14:26] Nola: So what kind of mindset or self-talk typically gets in the way of negotiating? I mean, regardless of whether you're a man or a woman?
[00:14:35] Andi: If you don't feel like you have something to bring to the table, if you're feeling like you're the one with the one down type of thing. In B2B though, it's really easy because service or product and customer, right? And even in B2C, that's very similar. Service and product and customer. In career, it's hard because it's our job sometimes on the line, so I think there's definitely some finesse and, a path to do that successfully, more so than other times. In the role when I changed, I asked my current company if they wanted to take a shot to get me to where I was trying to go and it wasn't in their best interest and I knew it wasn't in their best interest to do so. I already knew that going in, and that's okay. And that's not a hit at me, but as women we take that personally a lot of times and I mean men do probably too. So we just take that personally whenever someone's like, no, and says no and closes the door. But I try to take the 10,000-foot view and go enterprise-wise, like, I think very much of an enterprise level, is this the best decision? And so, a lot of times knowing what you're bringing to the table, knowing the budget, or knowing how much your spend is, or what value you bring as the customer, or what value you bring as the provider, you know what you're coming in with. So I think just building that confidence to be able to say something. And saying it from more of a detached perspective and going, here's the lay of the land. And then let's see what our options are. And having those options already kind of thought out a little bit ahead of time. Have a plan. Have a goal. Have the end game in mind, so to speak, when you approach that negotiation. Like any negotiation I go into, I know where I'm wanting to land. I already see the runway. I've got the airport mapped out. We're going. How are we going to get there and what's it going to cost? That's where it comes in.
[00:16:20] Lori: Are there any specific biases or misconceptions that men and women should be aware of and address during or going into negotiations?
[00:16:32] Andi: I think we probably all have a different set of biases and that's just personal. I don't know that it's so much gender driven. I think there's narratives for both of those. My specialty is in B2B. So that's what a lot of my experience draws on. And whenever we come into those situations, feeling like I'm worth being in the room is where it all starts. You're meant to be there. If your desire is to be there and you're not there yet, then we've got to build things to get you there. But once you're there, you're the one in the room. So you've got to grab it and take hold and take up space. I think a lot of women sometimes want to shrink, even just in our physical space. Spread out. It's okay to put your arms on the table. It's all right. I think movement is a big part of it. Our bodies were made to process things through physical energy. And so that's why I say take up space because it allows emotions and things, places to go. And be engaged and lean forward, it's all right to be in the room, on purpose.
[00:17:33] Lori: What a good tip there. Are there other common mistakes in your experience that either gender, but specifically women, tend to make during negotiations? And when you make a mistake and you catch yourself in a mistake, do you have any tips for how you can get yourself out of that?
[00:17:51] Andi: I think initially, one thing that we do is not take that first shot. And that's crucial in negotiation. In Sun Tzu, The Art of War, it's always going to be strike first. Strike first. Strike first. And so as women, I think a lot of times we don't do that. Part of my strategy is always taking the first shot, always taking a shot. And a lot of times in my world, we do a lot of requests for proposals. That starts with, Hey, we think we're going to spend about X amount in this category. Go to these vendors. Hey, this is what we think our X spend is. Would you like to put together a proposal, basically? So that's our first kind of shot is throwing a number out there. The bait, so to speak, right? What can we catch with this? And for the other side too, like, Oh, there's a fish to be caught on that side. And so, I think taking that shot is the first one. And then when they come back, a lot of times they'll come back with a lot of different, sometimes it's very itemized in line items. Sometimes it's very broad and categorical or a big plan. And so, not hesitating to always ask for it to be lower or be better or to put really specific boundaries around service level and KPIs, having thought process into that and what that looks like. What does it look like for you to perform that service? If it's among a lot of locations, is that all of them? Or what percentage if you have a failure in the field, what does that look like? How do we mediate that? Implementation costs money. A lot of times companies will try to charge implementation costs. That's always one that's a big red flag to me. It's like, no, if, if you want our business or the business, then startup kind of can come back to you. So you can always save money there almost always. But taking that shot to come back with where you know you're trying to get to, you've always got to overshoot that and come work back toward the middle.
And also, in B2B especially, and this is where relationship building gets into it, because that's my niche and why I think I'm a strong negotiator is because I build relationship first. So, getting to know that person, just introducing myself, the company, et cetera, before ever making that request for a proposal, is crucial and you kind of have to be a salesperson here. You got to ask them questions about them. People like to talk about themselves. They feel more trusting of you whenever you're asking about them. Ask where they're from. Do they have a family? Lots of personal questions. What's your background with the company? Oh, if you're new there, where were you before? Building that relationship is how you find connection. And then in B2B, you're in a mutually beneficial relationship. So we're trying to create a win-win here for people. We know as a customer, they have to have margin on their product and service. We're in business. We are not in the nonprofit world. And we are not trying to close businesses. So we know that they have to make margin, but can we do it at a lower percentage or whatever? Can we make it feasible for both of us to where it comes out in the end and start building lasting partnerships that are come to a longer term of a lifespan?
In B2C though, really in business to consumer, if you're a business owner, which I know a lot of your listeners are, it's really hard. This is really, really, really hard to do. It's way easier to say, but not every customer is your customer. And in negotiating and when you're the business owner, you have to remember that. Really have some hard and fast lines on that. And that's really hard to say no sometimes, especially if you're a starting business, it's hard to say no. It is so hard. But it is crucial. Be very specific about tailoring what you're after.
[00:21:24] Lori: Really good tips. Andi, I want to clarify something before we go too much farther though. Why from your experience, is it more powerful to go reach for the stars, throw it out there and wait until they respond? Is that like, that's when you're truly entering the negotiation field?
[00:21:43] Andi: The negotiation starts when I make the offer. Like in career negotiations, when they ask the question, what is your salary range? That's your first time to take a swing. Don't under it, like over and above it. Over and above it. If you want to make 100, 000 a year, tell them your range is 125 to 150. If they're not in that ballpark, this is not the game for you. Unless you're working with a recruiter that has some different incentive than just a company, then you really need to go big or go home. It's where I've found most success is take the first shot because all they can do is say no. And we go back to the drawing board. So don't be afraid to hear no. That's another big piece of that is you're going to get told no. Whether it's a boss, a coworker, another customer, another business, and that's okay. And there's so many ways around that, right? It's like, okay, it's no for this, but what about this? And you have to get creative with strategies sometimes. And sometimes it's on the spot. You've got to find ways to get what you're after.
So, in one negotiation, just a real quick experience that happened in the last couple of weeks is in some final negotiation, we were a dollar amount off of where we wanted to be. And we were trying to find some line items where we could true up that number. And it was no. And I was like, well, what if we meet these numbers of how much sales were basically committing to, would you do a kickback at the end, like a rebate after we hit or exceed that number? So you have to get creative sometimes. There's dollars out there and there's ways to do it. So it's a lot easier for a company to go, Oh, they're committing to spend this amount, then I'll knock that off, XYZ. It's a lot easier to sometimes back in some sides of it and work from another angle.
[00:23:25] Nola: Do you have any other do's and don'ts? And specifically, is there a right way and a wrong way to negotiate?
[00:23:33] Andi: If you can get face to face, it's always good. If you can share a meal, it's always good. Whether you're on the sell end of that side or the buying end of that side kind of determines how that typical process works. But as we emerge from COVID, it is so important to building the relationships. Especially in a new space. Honestly, even in my former role, I would go to Vegas for three days to a conference that I wouldn't even attend, get a really nice penthouse suite room and have a place to meet. And all of my vendors were there. I was there for 72 hours. I had 34 meetings this year. While I was out there. From breakfast to lunch to dinner and speed dating meetings in between. And recapping the business, having that personal touch on the relationship, hearing where their struggles were, and just kind of reconnecting, so to speak. And that's so important in business. When you're in the room, shake the hand. Always reach out and shake the hand. When you begin and when you end, don't be afraid to do that. And look them in the eye when you shake the hand. Be there, be present, remember their name. Or if they're a fan of something, or a foodie, something like that I try to remember. And tack on to them so I can ask them in our next conversation and start real negotiation conversation with that personal connection. Oh, you were talking about how much you liked Street Tacos, what's been your latest Street Taco one that you had? I had some... pork cheek carnitas the other day that were phenomenal.
Even in the career side, that's very, very important. And I think some things that women forget to negotiate in career: vacation. So I had a lot of tenured vacation at my former company. So don't be afraid to ask for extra vacation outside of their normal vacation policy. Cell phone allowance. If you're going to be a salary employee. Vehicle allowance. I think the stock or bonus plans are important. And if that's a no, then that means your salary needs to be higher oftentimes. So that means, okay, if that's a no, well, then if they come at me with an offer, then I'm going to bump back on that. And never accept their first offer. That is career negotiation number one. Never accept the first offer. Because it means you're not valuing yourself enough because you know what? You're worth way more than they do. If you're getting a written offer, come back with more. Do it from the start. They have way more capability as a company to tailor that to you before you're signed on. It is so much harder once you're in the role to make changes.
[00:26:02] Lori: It all reminds me of, we went to Italy and had a wonderful time, but my terrible experience was
Italy, in shops, you're allowed to negotiate. A matter of fact, it's expected to negotiate any item that you're buying, right? And this was going to be my first experience. And after we were done, I said to my husband, man, I really felt that didn't go well. And he said, you were driving the salesperson crazy because you negotiated so narrow in what you were asking for that I'm sure she thought this is a waste of my time. I was maybe inappropriate in knowing how to negotiate in countries that are used to doing that. Do you have any tips, do's and don'ts, if you're outside of the United States?
[00:26:56] Andi: So sometimes I get cold calls from LinkedIn because my number's out there and they know I'm a insourcing. And the guy on the phone, he's from another country and he goes, I'm not trying to sell you anything. And I said, then why are you calling me? You've got to rethink your tactic here. And I went on to coach him and go, okay, so you're telling me you're not trying to sell me anything. So you've now lied to me. And how am I going to trust you in a relationship? It's the first thing he did was lie to me. And he was like, I'm so sorry. He was very apologetic. So I was like, okay, you get what you get today. But I was like, don't lie. Never lie. You can conceal, but you don't ever lie. In negotiation, we conceal a lot because there are cards, but we don't play a card with another card taped on top. We don't do that. And that's in all of it. We always want to be honorable to the other person and the relationship and being truthful when we can.
[00:27:48] Lori: Honesty, regardless of the country that you're in, is important. Any other tip to offer?
[00:27:55] Andi: I think if you know you're researching or you're going to be negotiating with a person from a specific country, it's probably not a bad idea to look at what their culture alarms are. Like in a lot of Europe, it's a kiss on the cheek instead of a handshake. And so, even just building those personal touches and knowing what you're going into, and what's been the norm, is sometimes an easy way to just bridge that gap. And then other times you just kind of have to feel the person out. Like I said, build the connection first. You're going to win so much more when you build the connection. And that's part of your negotiating strategy is to be an active listener when they're telling you things. And be empathetic, just knowing what the delicacy of the relationship is. Always in career negotiations, drive how you bring enterprise value, drive how you make the company money at the end of the day.
[00:28:45] Nola: Andi, I have one final question. What does living a vibrant life mean to you?
[00:28:49] Andi: A life on purpose, a life by design, knowing what you want and don't want, and not being afraid to ask for it.
[00:28:58] Nola: I love that.
[00:28:59] Andi: And I go back to one of the things I said at the very beginning, is not having to justify it to anyone. I think the best piece of a vibrant life is I don't have to justify what I call vibrant to anyone. It's my interpretation of that. That's okay.
[00:29:13] Nola: Thank you, Andi, for being our guest. We are sure your professional experience, along with your real-world tips and suggestions are going to inspire more women to step up and negotiate in and out of the workplace, as well as improve negotiation skills for many others. Before you go, how can listeners get in touch with you? Where should they go if they want to learn more about you, your business, the work you do in the community?
[00:29:38] Andi: I'm on LinkedIn. Andi Haddad, the curly blonde girl. So you can definitely reach out to me on there, or I am on Instagram at Andi Grace. Those are the two best ways to reach me.
[00:29:48] Nola: Perfect. We'll be sure to put those links in our show notes as well.
Well listener, we hope the ideas and thoughts shared here today have sparked your interest and curiosity in negotiation and to become a first-time entrepreneur in the second half of your vibrant life. By the way, be sure to stick around to the very end of the podcast for a fun chuckle.
[00:30:08] Lori: If you found the information we've shared helpful and want more tools, tips, and inspiration delivered to your inbox, sign up for News You Can Use over on our website, stickybrandlab.com, or click the link in our show notes. And remember small steps, big effects.
[OUT-TAKE]
A recent study from Boston College's Cooperation Lab. Sorry, I paused because my contact moved. I wanted to make sure I didn't say cooperative.
[00:30:38] Nola: Yeah. That's all right.
[00:30:40] Lori: Take three.
