Welcome to the Trashlanch podcast, attendance is 100%. It is me, Liam Halliburton, Ibran Ahmed, and Cameron Chennault. We are sponsored by Dragon Shield. They're actually gonna send us some stuff for Worlds, and we're all gonna use Dragon Shield stuff, because Dragon Shield is so good. Their sleeves are really sick. So I use Dragon Shields. Yeah we are Currently, in the middle at the beginning of a long stretch between NAIC and Worlds, where absolutely nothing is happening. So, we will try and find something to talk about for the next hour or so. Yeah,
Abaan:like us, I don't think it should be too much of a struggle.
Liam:Bon says he's a fiend, and, and likes to talk about the Worlds format, so why don't we just kick it off there. There was a recent, yeah, Japanese tournament that Hegster gave us some lists for from top four and onwards. Abon, what is your opinion on these lists?
Abaan:Alright, I mean, the like, two things about like, Japanese lists, they just can never be normal, bro. Like, I've never seen a Japanese list, and I was like, oh, they'll play that in America, like, okay, there's some like, some key standouts I want to point out, and like, I didn't think that that's bad, that some Americans do, it's like, they look at a list, and they just dismiss it, like, instantly. Like, there's some cards, like, At least, you have to kind of understand what they're trying to go for in the background, right? So like, their backscaliber list that someone ran, Daichi Shimada, right? That guy's obviously cracked. He's running a 1 1 Palkia, a Kyogre, he's running the new, like, Unfezant or whatever that like draws 3 or something died, Unfair Stamp, E Hammer, Rescue Stretcher, like, it's just such a weird list, but the one thing about it that I was thinking about was like, Unfair Stamp actually seems pretty good, because he's running two boss, right? So like, at first I was like pretty confused what the point of this was, but like, if, like, after playing a lot of backs, like, you really only need like one to two gust effects a game, so like, the Primecatcher is nice in its spots, but like, If you could just unfair stamp and then draw like your prime catcher, or sorry, your countercatcher or boss naturally, that'd seem pretty good. And then the other Japanese list that I'm like obsessed with, that I've been trying to test after seeing it, is the 1 line. Like, I just think that fixes so many problems in Zard, like, there's so many times where they just awkwardly like, Don't take the prize, and they just look at you, and they just refuse to, like, interact with you, and it's so frustrating, and having a way to just, like, just kill yourself to get to that 210, and then also be able to place the 50 damage from Dusclops, or 130 from Duscler, and then not to mention, there's a lot of late game states where instead of having to opt into the, like, to the the one prize board state where you have like the rad czar the charmeleon and the bib anymore they cut the bib all entirely and i guess the point is that a lot of times with dusknoir they can just jump from like three to one three to zero by like cc'ing something dusknoir killing like something small and then just zarding for game so I don't know, there's a lot I think there's a lot to learn from these Japanese lists, right? Because, like, even if they seem a little weird, like, I think it's bad to dismiss, like, these are all, like, cracked players, like, that you they're, like, not all of them, you know? But, like, they're all like, I assume that they're
Liam:No, yeah, bro, that's like the craziest part too, is they like, they always show up to worlds with these like really weird lists, and somehow do really well too. I think Daishi when he got second, he was playing like, An Arceus list that I would probably never ever touch because it played the fighting, it played the Decidueye line, it played a Pikachu line, it played a Moltres, and like a 2 2 Jolteon with the memory capsules. Like, it was just everything and some went in the same spirit here, which is like, it, it just has so much stuff. But yeah, he got second at worlds with it. That's like
Abaan:I I never played that format, but I heard from my friend Kobe, that deck was a pile. Like, it just doesn't run. Like, he was like, did this guy, like, cheat or something? How the fuck is it
Liam:that's what I would guess if you're like playing like, you know, E hammer, 1 1 CPOW, but like, you know, you make it happen, bro. Make it happen.
Abaan:I will say, in general, like Whenever I'm like getting like frustrated testing like other decks for worlds Some part of me just wants to like lock it in and say I'm fucking I'm playing CPAL for worlds No matter what because that deck like it just cannot be a bad play like by definition It just can't be that bad like there's just nothing that
Liam:yeah, because the deck is so strong.
Abaan:yeah It's just so consistent so strong like it can never be like more than less than like a tier 2 play tier 1. 5 honestly play
Liam:Sure. Yeah, I think, I think CPAT is like solid. It's
Abaan:I think the
Liam:I don't know. I never like playing it because it feels so fragile. Like, it's either you hit like everything or you, you, you have nothing and like, every time you miss, it's like, I mean, it's basically just game losing because the misses like incur like super strong board damage that is like basically impossible to recover from.
Abaan:sure, I just think, like, the logic for me, at least with CPOW, is like, looking at, like, the two Vessel lists and stuff, I'm not sure if it's the best Iron Hands test, but it's, like, very close between, it's either the best Iron Hands user, or it's the Lugia it's the best Iron Hands user. I don't believe any Generator based build, or the Lost Box based builds, are, like, more consistently using hands on two, so it's, like, I think the way to beat Gardevoir, if you can't, like, do some megamind shit with like Jirachi and Manaphy and like stalling them has to be like just hancing them on two every single time you play them right And I, I think I'd most like to try my hand at the CPAL, if I had to try that.
Liam:I think Zard is probably a pretty good way to beat Garde. I'm not entirely sure, but I think, especially with the Dusknoir, like, I think Garde is a deck that intrinsically suffers into the Dusknoir, because, like, what the Dusknoir is, like, naturally super strong at, it's not or, like, it has a bunch of other strengths as well, but one, one, like, really strong idea with it is that it basically just accelerates the game, and that you can force, like, one prize for one prize. And a deck like Guardi, like, really doesn't like that, like, if you, you know, somehow find a way to pop Dusknoirs to jump from like, you know, 4 to 0 in one turn, they, there's no way they ever win. Even like 3 to 0, like Jumps like that are really hard for Guardi to deal with. So I think, and I mean, the Japanese results, I think, are somewhat implied from what I've seen. I'm not sure if it's just this tournament, but also like meta shares or something like that, that like Zard is seeing a lot of success in a meta that coming out of NAIC at least looked like would be dominated by Guardi.
Abaan:Like, when you just think about it, like, what are you even worried about playing against with Xard Dusklops, right? Like, exactly, like, it's very hard to deal with that Duskanor getting set up on the bench, right? And so at any point, with the vacuum, the CC, and the Duskanor, it doesn't even sound that difficult to jump from 4 to 0. And like, It feels like Guardia has very little counterplay because you're not activating their CC. So they have one boss and like, you have Manaphy, so they only have like, Crest to get around stuff, right? So it just feels like, it feels like it should be so favored. Like, I haven't really tried it myself yet, like, that's definitely like, right up on the docket, because I was playing my own list of Dusknoir, which like, with Evos and Bib and stuff, and it, And I was actually still beating Guardian, but it just like, the whole time it was like, felt very clunky and I was like, not a huge fan, but I was like, If someone shows me how to make this deck like, consistent, and I guess the answer was like, I was too invested in this Duskner line, it was too thick. Just 1 1 1, it's totally fine.
Liam:Alright, wait, can you explain to me the logic behind going like 1 1 1? Like, why wouldn't you go 1 I feel like committing to either, like, the Dusclops, if the Dusclops is, like, good enough, you get enough value out of it, or the Dusknoir is, like, makes the most sense, right? Because hitting both of them is something that I assume you rarely, rarely do.
Abaan:I think here's my guess, okay, from what I can understand about this. A lot of times in like, matchups like Raging Bulls, you want to just Just take the Dusklops so you can take the like you can go like sec or first I mean, have a Charmender if they don't knock you out. I think you choose seconds though But it's like basically you just can use Dusklops to like get to the knockout threshold. They're not playing ban Yeah, and then if you're playing against like Guardian stuff, the Dusclops is pretty useless, and so like, and like, you can use Dusclops as a pseudo vacuum to like kill like a Drifloon with like a hundred on it, but like that's not the best use, because you're playing your own vacuums, like you'd rather just use vacuum for vacuum's purpose, and then use Dusclops in order to do like a whole extra prize, right? And so I think the point is that you don't, you don't even have to commit the candy to Dusknoir, right? Cause you can like, go Duskull, Dusklops, and I don't think they're ever really allowed to like, boss kill it. So you have all the time in the world, like if you're using Dusknoir, for some mega play, you have a lot of time to get it, so you can literally 1 1 1 up. And if you're using Duskklops for its job, then you can just like, Just use the Dusklops. So, I think it's I think, realistically, it's probably, like, it could be a 1 1 line without the Dusk Lorna at all, but then they're like, well, there's literally no reason to not play Dusk Lorna if I'm gonna put a 1 1 Dusklops in my deck.
Liam:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, right? Like, you, in the matchups that the Dusk Collapse is, like, not enough, you, you already have berry access to just, like, bench evolve, turn two, turn three, turn four, and then you just evolve later on, and the Dusk Nova's, like, oh, it's enough, that thing is, 13 is so much, right? Yeah. Sure. What was I gonna say? Oh, yeah. The, the other thing that you mentioned was, like, Unfair Stamp and Chen Pao. That was obviously something that stuck out, or stuck out, but that's also something that I rock with heavy, bro, because I, I was thinking, you know, to, to myself, like, just last night, bro, like, I really want to send something with Unfair Stampedo Worlds because that card is honest to god bonkers, bro. I was, I was hating on it on release because I was like, you know, man, there's no way, like, they would print a card that's, like, so uber mega insane they just KO turn 2 when you lose the game, like The onboard draw is so strong in this format, but it's, it's not, bro, like, the onboard draw is pretty weak,
Abaan:Imagine you have Onboard Draw, and then I Dusknoir kill it, and then
Liam:yeah, yeah,
Abaan:the Dusknoir for the Underastamp, but like, obviously, like, Unfair Stamp's already active.
Liam:the unfair stamp lets you be so much more aggressive with that, Disrupt plus, like, target down your engine play, and that's why Guardi is like so, so strong at using it. Still play Hyper Aroma because Henry Chao plays Hyper Aroma,
Abaan:comment. I watched his stream interview, and he's like, Bro, if you play the game, you win. Why would I play Unfair Stamp?
Liam:oh yeah, Crazy Aura! That was, that was like max Aura bro, so yeah, definitely play the Hyper Aroma still. But, yeah, that's the reason Guardi's able to utilize the Unfair Stamps so well is of course because they target down engines. But, I think, like, even just in general, I, you can think of a lot of these A Specs as just, like, supporters on items. But they each have, like, small differences, right? And the difference with Unfair Stamp is you get to basically, like, do the, like, Prime Catcher Iono play. Like, Prime Catcher Iono was never that strong, but that's because you send them to, like, 5. And 5 is actually, like, a lot more than, like, 2, bro. So,
Abaan:Draw is a huge aspect. The fact that it's like, N, is
Liam:yeah. Shuffle Draw is, like, really just max disrupt at the at the start of games, right? When they're not able to thin their deck down. And,
Abaan:I mean, one thing about the Henry Chow thing, by the way, is I think, like, I think the reason he, like, struggles so much against Lost Blocks, like, he lost in top A and, like, tied Andy and stuff, I think Unfair Stamp is peak against Lost Blocks, because early game, when they take just their innocuous prize, like, the fact that you can just make them shuffle their deck, and, like, they don't get to, like, put, like, they don't get to curate the cards at all, they just literally just, like, their deck is, like, 50
Liam:Yeah, they, yeah, they just have to send it, right? Yeah, no,
Abaan:that it matters a
Liam:dude, I think every time I play on fair stamp, I'm like, geez, dude. I like, there's like maybe a, you know, 30% chance. I just like instantly win here and like, you know, I am definitely in a good spot, like literally no matter what. So I, I think the card is like super amazing to play in Guardi, but like Henry Chow is Maxor, so you should just listen to him,
Abaan:that's why, like, all these factors to me, like, this format just feels like no one wants to, like, take that prize! Because, like, I'm just gonna get CC'd on Fairstamp, which is why, like, Dusklops is so, like, crazy to me. It's like, bro, if we're both just sitting there looking at each other, I can just, like, pop the shit, CC, gimp you, like, that's broken. I don't know.
Liam:Yeah, I think, I think the Dusclops does sound pretty good.
Cam:1, like, it feels like you only need one to beat. I don't know if you just outright beat control, but seems pretty good against them if you can loop in. I mean you can Iona them to lower
Liam:yeah, I mean, it depends on the control list, right?
Cam:Yeah, it depends on what they're doing, but it just gives you a weird out
Liam:No, yeah, I think it's a complicating factor in the matchup
Abaan:it may be complicated things, but I think the fact that they can still shove Mimikyu over and over again, and then like, Zerosik and Iri, it's very hard for you to do any kind of looping, like, your rods are being pressured, your hand size is always low, like, you can literally just run out of candies, and at the end of it all, like, if you do get through all this like, nonsense, like, the bear sweep is like, kind of scary, like, if I get all your candies and I just like, two shot your Zard, like, I don't know, it's, It's possible, like, you're not worried about certain resources until it's like very, very, very late game. Like,
Liam:You literally never attack with anything. Yes, alright, I think
Abaan:it's, like, yeah, because I never get issue.
Liam:or whatever, they only, yeah, it only happens against players who, like, pretty brutally mismanage their resources. Like, they They go into the Charizard way too
Abaan:at some point you're not mismanaging your resources though. At some point you're truly getting, like,
Liam:no, yeah, yeah, like, I, dude, I, this is part of what prompted my tweet, this is a great segway my tweet into like why playing against Control is so terrible at least the current iteration, which is like these Pidgeot lists, which is like, you're in these like basically forced lose lose situations by like turn 5 where, you know. And like, you could pack it up then and just be like, alright dude, I like, this guy's gonna play Penny every turn for like the next like three turns and I like guarantee to lose, but like, there's no upside to packing it up and you're like, bro, like, just show me you have it, like, in essence you feel like the only thing you're testing is whether or not they play the card that counters you or like for the specific situation you're in. Which is like, the least interactive test ever. It's like, so terrible to play against.
Abaan:If you're playing a best of one, I agree with you. I agree with the concept if you're playing a best of one, but like, I think the best two out of three, it's kind of like, you're, there's like an implicit tax where it's like, because I've showed you that I'm going to win this game eventually, you need to trust that I'm not going to like have a stroke and you need to just scoop and like, then you can win game two for sure. Take Right? Or like, let's say you do win game 2. If you don't win game 2, it's a moot point, you're gonna lose the series anyways. If you win game 2, then like, either you just like, game 3, don't pack it up and you get to tie for free, or you win game 3 off like, some fluke, right? Like, the people who just sit there and make you prove it game 1 are like, throwing their own chances. Like, after a certain point, you don't even have to play game 2, like, you're just gonna like, do random penny nonsense and like, win.
Liam:Yeah, I think You pack it up like, obviously much faster game one than you do game two, right? But, I like, dude, I think a lot of people underestimate how fast Pidgeot is as a deck. Like You get into a like a Completely dead lost like a hundred percent. There's no way like it's literally just locked up like on board Position like very fast
Abaan:I'd say it's like within two quick searches. Like, literally turn three, it can get devastating. Like, there's a Luxray with 260 HP milling you, and it's like, I would have to draw like, let's say you have a hand that's like clunky, there's no way to shuffle, and you just have like two crucial resources, and I just see it. Like, I Luxray, discard the first one, and I see the other one, and then you don't have Iona, and it's just already tragic. Like, you've already
Liam:I mean like dude and even Even in situations like that like say like where they just get to the Luxray before you hit like an attack to take a prize or two optimally, right Even those positions just feel, like, dead lost. Like, you have no activity in your hand, you have to basically draw every combo piece at once, or else you get Luxray stripped, and like, you also just, like, don't even have, like, a volume of resources, because, like, you basically are, you're, like, paying resources to set up. Like, like, your setup is not happening yet, because, so, so you end up having to, like, do something, like, you know, like, play boss to take your first prize, and, like, So it's basically cooked as soon as they get like turn two Luxray and you haven't hit attacks.
Abaan:Yeah, I mean, I agree. Like, I think people inherently, like, the people who think they have the most fun playing as Control, I don't want to be, like, rude, but I think they're probably playing as, like, not the most skilled Control players, because, like, I swear when I play against, like, myself playing Control, like, I'm like, bro, I either can't breathe or it's free. Like, I don't
Liam:Yeah, like no, because it's situations like that too, like those are the ones that's hard to scoop and you basically just have to sit there the whole time getting absolutely cooked. You're like, dude, I have like boss double Turo in deck and I'm playing Guardi. So like, why would I scoop? But you have six prizes left, and like, no activity on board. Like, you're literally cooked. But you have all your resources left, so you don't want to scoop, but like, I mean, you're cooked, you're done for. And you have to like, you have to sit there for like ten minutes and like, to take like three prize cards and then lose.
Abaan:I mean, it has to be magic for you not to lose, right? You have to not draw Bravery Charm, Boss, Toro. You just need to draw, like, Pure Energies and Curlia and, like, Ultra Balls. Like, you can't draw, like, good cards before the bad cards,
Liam:yeah, no, I like, I mean, it's, it's cooked. It's literally cooked,
Abaan:you literally cannot Arven for Bravery Charm. That's how terrible the situation is, right?
Liam:Yeah.
Abaan:your Arven is just Search and Item card.
Liam:Yeah, I know, it's like, it's just brutal.
Abaan:You know one thing I was thinking about with Guardi that I've been, like, kind of dismissed because I was, like, testing Stefan's list just for, like, Just so I can get a uniform experience when I'm testing against Guardi. And so, I actually think the D. Va is so interesting to me, like, I think that Zard is gonna be good, Bax is gonna be good, like, I think that Devo should
Liam:stable in that
Abaan:Yeah, it has to be, right?
Liam:yeah, that card is so insane. You like, it just makes so much sense with the deck. Like, it has so much synergy with like the Monkey Dory Flutter. Like, the deck is basically just like a spread deck at this point. And Yeah, like, you should play Devo in a spread deck. Like, you're putting damage counters all over the entire board. It's it has like so much synergy. And you're playing a ton of disruption. Like, you're disruption oriented, spreading damage counters. Like, Devo is just an amazing card in that deck.
Abaan:I don't know if this is an apt comparison, but like, I mean, I played a lot of Urshifu, and like, it kind of feels like that vibe where it's like, you know how you could like, meta champ and Iono them and etc, right? Like, playing Reset Stamp feels like that. It's like, oh, I get to play a real supporter and Iono you? So like, and then you have the spread, you have the Devo, like, I was like, wow, it's like, this actually does like, feel like a little bit of like, peak Urshifu days, you know? It's pretty high
Liam:every time I play, every time I play on TCG Live, I like, Forget I've played a supporter when I, or like I haven't played a supporter when I own Fairstamp, and then I see that like little green glow around the Arvin, and I'm like, oh dude, I like, I just get to do whatever I want this turn, like,
Abaan:Like, I get the Aroma argument, like, because Guardia is so solid that if you play, you're gonna win, but man, Unfair Stamp is, like, it's in the name, bro, it's just so unfair, like, how can you not play Unfair Stamp? I don't know. I think it has to be Stamp, even if Henry Chao told us the truth. Unfortunate.
Liam:I, I trusted Henry, bro. I, I will always put my what is it?
Cam:that's just like a power card when you're playing at Worlds, right? When you're playing against the other, the other best players in the world, and you're in qualms about who's participating and not, like, wouldn't you rather have the, like, the stronger card? Against a stronger player like yeah, I don't want really want hyper aroma and just like set up I want the unfair stamp to
Liam:Dude, you know what's actually hilarious though is, I like basically just be playing Pidgeot on ladder all day, and like, every time I see that unfair stamp I just like laugh to myself bro, because like, it does nothing bro, that card is terrible, but,
Abaan:I will say,
Liam:every other deck it's like super insane,
Abaan:you bring up like a pretty interesting point that like a lot of people don't consider enough. It's like, I read this article that like Ian Robb tweeted about, it was about like some Magic Players article the other day. Like the other day being like months ago, right? And I was
Liam:yeah I know.
Abaan:people like don't go for the kill enough, right? And it's like actually just such a good point. Like if you play against a really skilled player, anytime there's a chance that you lose, they'll like often just like go for it. And like if you have it, then they don't just lose, they're just constantly doing checks where it's like if you miss, Your back is broken, you just lose the game on the spot, but if you have it, like, we just keep playing, and maybe I, like, I lose a little bit of win percentage because I, like, wasted a resource, but, like, whatever. What's the big
Liam:that's literally exactly what I said, I think, like, last week, bro. Which is, like, I'm super willing to take shots into, like, Roxanne, where I'm, like, Yeah, dude, I'm just gonna go to two and see if I rip boss off Roxanne, and then, like, I win the game if I do. Like, as opposed to, like, trying to, like, set up a better board or something, like, Gigabrain myself out of Roxanne or whatever. And, like, you know, if you could do Gigabrain stuff, sure, go for it, right? But, like, yeah, just Getting, getting raw win percentage is like, the most terrifying thing to play against right? Like, Even when it's like, incorrect, the scariest feeling in the world is watching like, the Mew player play all the power tablets in their hand to draw three more cards to try to win the game. Like, shooting for win is like, it is terrifying to play against, so yeah, you should, you should shoot for the win more, but like, also don't be greedy, bro. I think some people are like, absolutely terrified of passing. I, that was something I noticed with, with Zard vs. Guardian. One reason I think that Dusclops could be really good is like, people want to hit turn to attack with Zard. They're like, You know, oh, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go, like, Candy Pidge, Candy Zard and, like, see if it works out, but then you just, like, walk into, like, Stamp Stamp Drifloon or whatever, right? Whereas if you, if you just, like, Pidgey it for, like, a Poffin or, like, a Charmeleon and just sit there, this was exactly what you were talking about earlier. They have one boss. Their deck doesn't do anything. Like, they just have to kind of sit there. And they have, like, some long term threats with the Monkey Dory if you, like, sit there forever, but, like, I don't know. You can afford to make your board a little bit better sometimes. So like, shoot for like, actual wins,
Abaan:them, right? Like, they can't really Guardi. Like, they're, it's too scary to, like, Guardi Cresselia, right? Because then the Guardi's just sitting there. Like, they have to Turo in combo with that. And the Charmeleon plus Manaphy is, like, unhittable on the bench. Like, yeah, you can literally play that deck, like, play that matchup like you're playing Pidget, but you just have better tools. All
Liam:yeah, exactly. You just like, you wait for them to do some stuff and then you like, hit Wizard three times in a row and like, it's just unstoppable, right? Yeah, I think, I think people can approach matchups like, a lot more patiently, but also yeah, shoot for wins. But that doesn't mean just like, attack every single turn and like, make sure you attack every single turn. Like, you should
Abaan:I mean, there's a key distinction here, right? It's like, attacking doesn't mean shooting for win, right? Shooting for win means, like, literally, like, a winning, like, thing. Like, you're just gonna either win the game raw, or,
Liam:them out, if you
Abaan:yeah. yeah. exactly. You're gonna win, like, 100 percent win, or, like, it's so crippling that anyone can see that's obviously a win, right? It doesn't mean, like, just hitting something. That's not shooting for wind, that's just hitting them.
Liam:Yep.
Cam:And I think that's like I really liked iron thorns for the reason that yeah It's not always the strongest But it does do that like sometimes you just rip a generator you throw an iron thorn in the face you take a knockout and You say no abilities like if you don't have it right now It gets bad pretty quickly.
Liam:Yeah, dude, I thought, I thought that Thorn stack was like really good.
Abaan:The four thorns, or just, like, the future hands thorns?
Liam:no, the the feature, the feature one,
Cam:and just set up an iron hands on the bench while you're doing that
Liam:yeah. I don't like the, the quad thorn stack. It feels like so gimmicky as opposed to the the, the future thorns, which like. You literally have the exact same gimmick, which is, if their deck folds the Thorns, you always win. And, but you also don't just, like, lose if their deck doesn't fold the Thorns. Like, you also get to hit with Iron Hands, which is, like, a super broken attacker, right?
Abaan:And you gotta have the plus powers for your thorns. You have the four the crowns for the plus powers on thorns and hands, like, you have everything.
Liam:No, yeah, of
Abaan:is not playing the bro, it's stupid.
Liam:makes everything. Makes the math work out super well.
Abaan:Can we talk about something? What is the dea like, I did not respect Maraudon as a deck at all, until I saw that Ian Rawl played it for NAIC, and like, If you want to talk about Aura, bro, that's like, one of the Aura kings in the game right now. So like, what do you guys think? Like, how the how the hell, like, is Maraudon, like, Explain it to me, like, what's the argument to play Maraudon over a Raging Bolt or like, any of these other decks?
Liam:Bro, Morionine is, like It is just goaded, bro. Like I, I really, I I really like Miranda. It's like it's much more solid, bro. It's solid.
Cam:your, your chances into Guardian and Lost Box are just way better, right? Like, if you just throw a Hands into their face, and you just go, eh, like,
Liam:exactly. It's, it's the
Abaan:But you don't have Mareep anymore! Like, what happens after they kill the first guy? Like,
Liam:dude, you gotta hit them. Jennys, bro. You gotta hit them Generators Like what?
Cam:and Prey.
Liam:Yeah,
Abaan:Okay, so like there's no hidden sauce. It's what I thought. It's terrible,
Liam:I,
Cam:but like, I
Abaan:but it works. It works enough. Like I haven't
Liam:yeah, I, I, I, I think dude, the, the deck is like, it, it's just good, bro. Maran is like. You hit, you hit really hard, you hit really fast, and you get to hit with hands sometimes. Like, that's a, that's a good combination for a deck.
Cam:Of the format, right? When everyone's like, shitting around with like, mediocre lists or like okay lists
Liam:yeah, yeah. Hit hard, hit fast. That's always a good strat, right?
Abaan:Shinoe, I have a question for you about like what do you think your matchup into like Zard would be with your future handsting? That's like my main reservation against him. Even testing it. I just can't imagine this hard matchup even with Thorns is like good enough.
Cam:i mean i don't know i think the thorns I think the Crown plus Thorns makes it fine, it just depends on how well they draw before you start throwing it in their face. You're gonna two shot a Zard, they can't really one shot you before then and
Abaan:But the Dusklops seems like enough, no? Like, if I can Dusklops, I can
Liam:I'd buy that. It's pretty good. Maybe the Dusclops is enough, but yeah, you, you brick them a little bit, you hit their consistency, and the deck is like, I think the matchup is actually a little bit better for or like it's always been better for hands than people give it credit for.
Abaan:I do agree, if you don't just bench crowns at terrible times, and you like, manage when they come down, I can I already thought that the matchup was like, not terrible, because I was like, I was losing to myself and then I play at a tournament and they just bench a crowd. I was like, oh, okay. Thank God, I'll boss knock
Liam:Yeah.
Abaan:And,
Liam:Yeah. Exactly, bro. But like, they win super fast. Like, they get like a Maraiden KO turn one, and then like, they're basically threatening to win in like, two attacks if you like, irresponsibly set up your board, and then they like, shove the Maraiden on again, and chip into the whatever it is, the the Zard, and like, so they have a lot of ways to threaten like, two amps to win. And that's like,
Abaan:from your list, by the way, a Psychic just has to be correct, right? No Psychic seem wild. Not one.
Cam:it's probably correct at some level, I just wanted to, like, I just thought being slightly better on generators was just like, the right choice over at the first tournament, or whatever it is, you know, even though it's only one tournament long,
Liam:Yeah, I don't think that can ever be too punishing. Hitting more generators is like, always good.
Abaan:sure, but like, dude, hitting with Maraudon for like 220 damage is just crazy, like in so many matchups now.
Liam:Yeah, I mean, it's fine.
Cam:Yeah, I mean, it can be in spots, but I just didn't think it would be
Abaan:Did you miss it at the tournament? Like, did you ever think like, fuck man, where's my Psychic? Alright, nah.
Cam:Nah, not really, like, I was just, cause I'm always, you need to kind of, I mean, you just put two on thorns, and then you attach another one, and like, the, the thing about thorns is like, you're also, this version of the deck, you're doing like, 200 damage with the thorns, and then you're, you put down a second thorns if someone's like, trying to bundle you, and then you put down a hands as well, and you're, you're charging up the hands, and you're, you're gonna win if they don't deal with it soon, that you
Liam:Yeah, I mean, if you're not leading the Maraidon, you're leading the Thorns in a lot more matchups, like, it definitely makes less
Cam:you just Hyrule, yeah, if you just Hyrule with the generators, you're just using thorns and hands the rest of the way and like, I don't know, like, MRI'd on for 180 doesn't seem as good as amp or turning off abilities. I
Abaan:that's actually a pretty good argument. Turning off abilities and hitting for 200 is pretty cracked.
Cam:Or just taking an extra prize for 200.
Abaan:Those are both pretty cracked, fair enough. really is old school TDK, by the way. It has like everything, man. It has like, plus power, it has the Miride on, it's got like, it's got everything.
Liam:Yeah, I think it's lit, bro.
Abaan:You guys want to talk about the Chess Clocks by any chance? The Liam tweet? I have a lot of
Liam:bro. Yeah, bro, me and Aban really got into it, bro. I think chess clocks would be wonderful. Aban, Aban has like a fundamental belief that like if he plays Kirlia's, he's entitled to 35 minutes of the time and the other player is only allowed to get 15. Um, I disagree. Like, I think, I think both players should have an equal amount of time. Like, if you imagine even the chess clock scenario, like. Where, where both players get a set amount of time at the beginning of games. Abond would like to see a world where he can indicate on his decklist, like he draws an arrow up next to the Kirlia's, and he's like, look, 4 Kirlia, give me plus 15 minutes, and like, the timer starts with plus 15 for him. I, I think that, that doesn't make sense
Abaan:you're thinking about it the opposite way, bro. In chess, like, it's just one guy moving his hand and, like, moving a piece and then hitting the button, bro. Imagine if in one chess, like, one guy was just moving pieces and the other guy's, like, having to be, like, fucking, like, Tricks, bro. He's having to spin around. He's having to like, do like a calculus problem on the side. Like, of course that guy should have a little bit more time to press buttons, bro.
Liam:cause you think the deck's harder? Like
Abaan:Like, you're literally just like, turning your Kirlia, refinementing, drawing your two, playing a search card. Like, if you want to sequence your turn in a way that takes extra time, that should be totally legal. Like, if you want to like, nest ball, search your deck, shuffle, then Kirlia, then like, level ball, shuffle your deck, That's valid, you know?
Liam:I don't, I don't know why you're like so desperate to, Not, not only like encourage, but reward players for playing high a PM decks by giving them more clock time. That's like literally the worst feeling in the world, in the current state of the game, which is a player's playing like a high action deck and they decide that they're, they deserve more clock time than you. So with five minutes left after winning game one, they decide to take, you know like a five minute turn of playing buddy puffins. That's like the worst feeling in the world in the current game. I don't know why we would encourage that. I think getting rid of that is like. The reason that chest clocks are so great.
Abaan:No, because Peak Pokemon is high APM decks. That's the point that I've been trying to convey to you this whole time. It's like, the guy who's doing the high APM deck, it's not like he picks some, like, cringe Pokemon deck, and then like, Oh, I chose the high APM deck so now I can do more time. It's like, no, I chose the most playing Pokemon deck, and then I'm playing the game, and then you're like, Getting upset, like, why is he playing so many cards? Like, I just attached my Arceus and
Liam:I didn't actually expect to hear that from you, because like, the greatest Pokemon that I've ever played is probably like, is, is, is genuinely just cube format, which is like, lowest action deck. Which is like, basically just like, draw, attach, energy, pass. That's like, the greatest Pokemon that I've ever, I've ever played. This like, I'm gonna use four Curleas and then play three Buddy Poffins and like, do like, 15 minutes of shuffling before I finish my turn, is like, Worst Pokemon in my mind.
Abaan:Oh, okay, sure. In cube, though, I'm not that invested in who wins. Like, it's like, oh man, I do my attached pass, and then he did his attached pass, and then he, like, Rare Candied into the thing he cubed that was broken, and I lost. Oh no, shucks, I had a great time. When I come to a tournament, bro, I'm like, bro, I want to win. I'm not down to just lose to this random guy who's doing more stuff than me. Like, what?
Liam:I mean, I don't, I don't see that, why, Jesus Christ, bro, like, this guy, dude, like,
Cam:cooked,
Liam:I don't,
Cam:Just
Liam:I don't understand why he, why he thinks he deserves, like, 35 minutes and the other guy gets 15, because what, like, what if the other guy marks down that they have four Curlios in their decklist too? Then you could just, like, agree to play a Vesa 1. I think that would honestly, God, be fine. Like,
Cam:I
Abaan:the core belief in the background is that I'm down for that. I'm down to play a best of one. I'm down for us to both mark the thing and play the best of one.
Liam:yeah dude, I actually think just playing best of one would be like pretty fire bro. Dude, that was actually the most lit thing ever, the Isaiah Bradner Hedrick match, I was like, oh yeah dude, that is, that's sick stuff bro, yeah. Cam would you play best of one if your opponent offered you to play best of one at Worlds?
Cam:I mean, yeah, sometimes I do that. I mean, against, against
Abaan:Cherno's like, oh, you're familiar with my work. You've seen my
Liam:Hahahaha,
Cam:like, I played against Stefan Tabacco, and I was just like, and I think just like no one said it, but we just were like, whoever wins this game is gonna win, like, it is what it is, I can,
Liam:I mean, the whole point is explicitly stating it because there's two outcomes after you win game one if you don't explicitly state it, which is one, you successfully slow play them into a tie, or into a 1 0, or two, you get docked, and then everybody loses.
Cam:I mean, when
Liam:state it, you avoid both of those, which are the only two outcomes.
Cam:it also heavily depends on like, what, what deck I decide to play, and also,
Abaan:Like, okay, the thing for me though is like when you agree to a best of one, like it's just so like hype, because that means in that game, you're playing a 50 minute best of one. Like, no one is like tripping about time. Like, you could deck check for like five whole minutes, and like the other guy's not tripping at all. They're like, who cares
Liam:Alright, no, I would actually trip out if they were deck checking for 5 whole minutes, regardless of how much time is on the clock, because that is absurd behavior, bro.
Abaan:Yeah, of course, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, that's like crazy. But my point is like, no one's like tripping in general, like sometimes you just
Liam:no, yeah, dude, dude, that's why I think the chess clocks would be so good, bro, like Everybody would get a set amount of time, which means that you can be flexible with time. And, like, somebody can think for like 2 minutes if they want to, because the only person they're hurting is themselves. Like, as opposed to the current, current stage which is like, you know, there's much less flexibility for that. You just like, you have to make plays very
Abaan:But if you do that, My issue is that you're playing a series, bro. Like, if someone does that to punish, like, to think hard and win a game, that should be rewarded, because like, you thought really hard and you outplayed them in one game. And then now, the second game, you're just like, they just turn their brain off, they play like, really fast, and you just lose. Like, that's fucking
Cam:I don't know, come on bro, there's no way, there's no way that, like, at NAIC, you could like look at Natalie Miller when I play her and be like, yo Cameron is this gonna look at his hand and peak acceleration after like 5 seconds? And you have as much time as him, like, it doesn't matter, like, you just automatically are
Abaan:Yes, exactly! I don't want Shannora to get the time I do, bro! That's ridiculous!
Cam:it's ridiculous, like, there's no way, oh someone, I just, I should just, because I have the 25 minutes, I'm just gonna sit around, futzing around, like, huh, let me really think about this for a little
Abaan:It's like ChessWiz, we should be able to go to the bathroom, get a drink, come back, oh, peak acceleration.
Liam:dude, I think that would be amazing bro, but dude, like, alright, yeah, the equivalent in the chess world would literally be, like, The equivalent in the chess world, and this is like, hopefully, this is the dumbest thing ever, so hopefully like, you know, this resonates with you guys, is, Magnus Carlsen sits down to play a cross from a first time player, and when the first time player sits down, the arbiter, the person who's running the tournament goes up to him and says, yo buddy, your opponent is thinking about these positions much more deeply, we're gonna give you 30 seconds, they get all the time in the world, just make random moves.
Cam:it's crazy that like,
Liam:That is like, that's terrible.
Cam:it's crazy you want to get on me about power shuffling, but basically I like, I would just sit there doing the exact same thing with like 25 minutes to my name with peak acceleration just like, huh, let me just walk down to the end of the table and see what everyone's playing,
Abaan:bro, there's a game across the game, there's Board State, like you're trying to take
Liam:issue for that. I'd have literally no issue with that, Shenoy, if it didn't mean you were about to 1 0 the other guy. Like If you weren't taking time out of, like, if their clock was ticking and you undid that, I would have an issue with that. But, it's your clock ticking. Nobody cares. Yeah, dude, Shannoy should literally be the biggest advocate for this, because he wants to be able to just, like, sit there and tick his time so he can do his pile shuffle thing,
Abaan:No, no, no, no, it doesn't make No, what you're saying, he should not be the biggest out of kit, right? Because Shinoi and I believe very heavily that there's a game above the game, you know? There's the game on the board, you're taking the prizes, you're fighting them, and there's a game for the clock, you know? You're making actions that are stealing from their clock. You play, like, you play Lovable, it reads, Do nothing, take 15 seconds from your opponent.
Liam:Yeah. Literally, bro, I think anyone who thinks that should be abolished should be abolished. Total advocate for chess clocks.
Abaan:I don't think you should be a boss though, bro.
Liam:viciously. People who want to do a vicious 1 0, you know, go for the go for the current system. Current system gets lit,
Abaan:we should talk about the one Like, point that Liam and I end up, like, kind of agreeing on, where it's like, if you win a game, but it took you a lot of, like, mental time and, like, just time, right? There should be a reward, at least, so you don't just, like, lose a series you're about to 1 0 because of your
Liam:Yeah, no, I think we'd 100 percent have to go to the go to best of one if we did chess clocks. I think winning game one and then losing on time is like, that's just like actually too brutal.
Abaan:Yes!
Liam:So yeah, I would 100 percent go to a 1 0 system
Abaan:then at that point, I don't think you need chess clocks to play a 30 minute best of one. I don't think people, like, I don't think
Liam:I mean it's probably, I, I,
Abaan:need it at that point.
Liam:Bro, people definitely slow play in 30 minute best of 1 bro, like,
Abaan:Fine, I'm down for chess clocks for best of one. I've, I've, I never, like, my issue, all the things I told you that were my issues, all involve the fact that it's a chess clock in a series. Like, that was just horrible, like, the concept of, like, your time being a amount for a whole series, it just sounds really bad. Like, I'm down to
Liam:I mean, I don't, I don't think it's terrible if you have if you're responsible with your clock, like in the sense that, you know. You can do it responsibly but, use time responsibly and then it's all fine. But, yeah, sure, I get your point and I think I think Best of One would probably be better. Best of One with chest clocks, you eliminate all of the time issues. Seems pretty good.
Abaan:Yeah, best of one chess clock, rip it, 30 minutes.
Liam:Shinnoi, what do you think about that?
Cam:You can change whatever the rules are, like, I don't care. Like, I just,
Abaan:I'll figure out the way to exploit
Liam:Is Shinnoi going to get you anyway?
Cam:I just don't think it, like, I don't think it matters. Like, you're just over here, like, you know, I used to be young and try to think of, like, the perfect system in the world. It's just like, bro, you just, like, gotta play the game to the best of the rules, no matter what they are. Like, I don't know, like,
Abaan:Shinoi plays the rulebook bro, we're playing it all wrong.
Cam:I, yeah, that's all
Liam:is literally at the top of the, like, top of the list. The peak of the Dunning Kruger curve of like, age and experience, bro. This guy like, he's like, oh, I'm 30, bro, I know what I'm talking about, like, these kids, bro, oh man, I
Abaan:I used to be like you, thinking about the rules. But now, they just tell me what the rules are and I play them bro, that's it.
Liam:Yeah, yeah, like, this guy, this guy thinks he's so enlightened,
Cam:you're over here wasting time of your day just to be like, hey, in a perfect universe, the system that I would like is this, it's like, no one gives a, cause it doesn't matter, no one's gonna do
Abaan:I actually disagree though. Because if, if you like say a banger on Twitter, like a, like a complete banger that everyone agrees with, and then they start echoing it to their little like, their little groups, and it starts like, the hive mind, like the Liam system, and like
Liam:Yeah, no, no, he
Abaan:chanting in one.
Liam:change, bro.
Abaan:Yeah.
Cam:Okay, bro. Let me know the next time, huge social change in the Pokemon community starts all of a sudden because of Twitter. Shoutout
Abaan:That's not even a joke, bro. After, like,
Liam:I, dude, NO, bro, the double nickling is crazy. I literally, all the pile shufflers, bro, they got their pile shuffling introduction right after double nickeling introduction course, bruh.
Abaan:Help! Sort your manas and your, like, your lands and your trainers and your fuckin Pokemon and then Two piles of five. Just draw the nuts every time, man.
Liam:I know dude, the craziest part, the craziest part is like, then you tell them Well, like, you tell them to stop doing that because it, like, you know, it's stacking your deck. You're not randomizing it. And they're like, but dude, every time I don't do that, Shannoy said this, like, word for word on the podcast last week. Every time I don't do that, I draw worse, bro. So I feel like I gotta do it every round. Like, dude, I just gotta declub, bro, or else I start drawing bad. I gotta do a little
Abaan:Anytime I don't just Like, yeah. Anytime I stack, like, I draw so good, and then when I stop stacking, I draw so bad, like, I don't know.
Cam:to my boy Navarro, he's like, I was listening to you, and you know, I'm heavily on Liam and Avon's side, but you like, almost convinced me for a second there, with what you were saying.
Abaan:vibe.
Cam:So, shout out to him, I almost got a I almost turned some people.
Abaan:Yeah, but
Liam:He almost got there. Mm hmm.
Cam:Oh man.
Abaan:I guess do you want to talk about the other Liam tweet or is that one just like, just let it sit there? The aura, the the lat like the training ladder of aura.
Cam:Nah,
Liam:aura, the aura tweet.
Cam:necessary, oh
Abaan:bro. I
Liam:necessary, bro.
Cam:dude, dude, dude, dude.
Liam:I made a tweet on Twitter. Maybe like two days ago or something, bro. Let me go find that joint.
Abaan:I didn't read it for the class.
Liam:Yeah.
Cam:This is for anyone who missed it, because I know everyone checks
Liam:where did I put this,
Abaan:Yeah, in case you have Liam Muto on Twitter like I do, that's cap. Actually,
Liam:Yeah.
Abaan:there and like every tweet. I'm a big fan.
Liam:Dude, literally. What was it, bro? Oh, yeah, this guy was like Yeah. We were literally, we were talking in the discord, and then like, I went and made, I went and made the aura tweet. It was literally right after we were talking, bro. But like, and this guy was like, bro, you really left the conversation to go make the aura tweet? I was like, bro, you really, you really went on Twitter as soon as I stopped talking and looked at the aura tweet?
Abaan:I was bored, bro. No one was talking. I had to go check Twitter.
Liam:Yeah, I gotta go peep Twitter.
Abaan:And I was like, wait, this is the follow up to our conversation, what the hell?
Liam:Let me go, let me go find this, alright. Yeah, I said, people with aura are able to find the best plays without even thinking. Imagine the best plays on a spectrum, where on the left end you have the very best, on the right hand, right end you have zero. And, the middle is like basically numbers that, are denote like the quality of the play that you make right so you have like one two three four five six seven and most players they try to like use logic and matchup knowledge and all this random stuff to like improve the quality of their play where they jump from like one to two to three to four to five but the best players when they when you have aura the plays are basically revealed to you so you you're able to disregard this entire like Ladder in the middle of plays and go backwards like from zero to the bare to the other end like it loops around and so like you you don't even have to think about all of the concrete aspects of the board And you're you're able to basically just like divine the right plays and you see this all the time Which is why like players who have basically zero matchup knowledge zero concrete knowledge You know, they won worlds in 2007 and have not played the game for like 15 years You They're able to just pick up the game and instantly sense out what the right moves are. Like, they're better than everybody else because they're trying to everybody else is trying to use logic and they just like Disregard the logic entirely and just like play the cards that speak to them and because they have aura the right cards are speaking to them
Cam:No,
Liam:they're spiritually in touch with the cards
Abaan:Okay, I love Liam's delivery of this whole thing. There's actually a lot of truth to what he's saying, it's just like, not in the way that he's saying it, obviously.
Cam:not the way you say it all. Like those fun, those fundamentals of card games. That's why like, it doesn't matter if you've played back then or now. Like there are certain things that
Abaan:no, it goes deeper than that. Like, you just play someone, and they just no, okay,
Liam:It's the experience,
Abaan:I want to just yeah, I want to, like, pull real words to, like, what Liam's saying, so, like, people can get some real takeaways from this. First of all, if you, like, are not that good, or, like, not that experienced, don't try any aura stuff. Don't play, like, with your instinct. Try the iterative process, because, like,
Liam:No, don't do that.
Cam:know, know the
Liam:your aura, bruh.
Cam:Maybe you practice a little bit
Liam:you don't even have to think about
Abaan:hit the hit the sim, practice a bit, iterate, like, see what's possible, I promise, like, that's gonna help you out.
Liam:Yes, but you have to let the cards speak to you, bro like The card that is calling your name, if you trust your gut more, and your gut will be refined by like years of experience, but if you trust your gut more, your play is so much
Abaan:I actually agree with you, that's like what I'm getting at. You practice, like you don't have aura in tournament, right? You just practice like you're supposed to. Like if you're trying to like actually maximize and like guarantee that you're gonna spike a tournament, at the day sometimes you do all these things and like it doesn't work out, or like you don't do all these things and it does work out. But like if you want to consistently do, like at least relatively well, you have to practice like you don't have this aura, and then in the tournament itself, you can't play like you practice. You can't just like sit there and like think that hard, and like try to find the perfect line. Like, in the actual tournament gameplay, you kind of do just need to like, oh, I mean, I've played this match up a hundred times, I'm just gonna play what it seems like correct, and The car if you the better you get, the more often you're actually just like, your instinct is the perfect line. Like, I do actually think there's something about like, training your aura. I just hate saying it like that, but like, you do need to like, train in a like, practice really hard, and then in the tournament, you'll Kind of just let things like flow because otherwise like you're either gonna take too long or you're actually gonna like in that iterative process you're either gonna get stuck too early in the loop or you will hit the right answer and then continue iterating for some reason and like somehow overthink your way out of the right answer. So like, I think just letting it, just like letting it rip at tournaments is like, Kind of the move, like you have, and like, I make like, small misplays sometimes, but in general, I feel like I play pretty close to optimal, just like, just letting it rip most of the time.
Liam:Yeah, just let it rip, dude. I, like, that is literally the scariest, the scariest position to be in, in an event, is not knowing what to do. And like, for some players, this is like, dude, my matchup knowledge didn't cover this position. And that's why they like, they fail, right? Because when, you know, their matchup knowledge doesn't cover this position, they haven't trained up their aura, and so they can't, they can't define the right move. And so they, they end up flopping. And that's why like, what defines the best players is their ability to innovate. Because your aura is consistent. You're constantly in new positions in tournaments that you haven't like practiced or seen in practice and yet if you have, you know, if you have like The spiritual connection to the game you're able to still find the right move But
Abaan:will, I want to say something that will speak to you. In this spot you're talking about, yeah, you'll be in constant new positions, but sometimes, if you practice enough, you'll be in positions that you've seen exactly before, and then you just like, Don't do anything and you conserve your aura, bro. You just literally just play it like you practiced out exactly how you saw it, and you just beat them for free cause you like, you've seen the entire ending. Because I think that Pokemon at some level is kind of like chess engines, where it's like depth. Like people, like, if you can see like four turns into the future, You, like, are super, super favored to win, right? So when you're in a position you practice, you're already in, like, a pre loaded, like, Depth 5 position. You already know exactly what's gonna happen, you play it out, you win, you conserve the thinking for the next round, and then, you can, like, be more creative when new spots come up.
Liam:Yeah, dude. This was this was something I was just telling a kid yesterday When it comes to like, depth, I think that's like, also, you know, on this idea of innovating, this was the exact speech I gave, the idea is this, or like, your depth determines, or like, allows you to innovate, or yeah, allows good players to innovate early on, right? Like, one of the, one of the biggest mistakes I see, like, Newer players make is they just try to trade even when they're losing like a good player will never ever do that And that's why you see all of these wacky games from good players because as soon as they go down to prizes They're like they're not hitting with their main attacker anymore. They're just like Figuring something out, and they're doing something really, really weird and really jank to like, somehow
Abaan:Gimp your engine, something,
Liam:fixing. Yeah, right, like, exactly. Something non standard as opposed to just trading all the way down into a losing spot. And like, this happens like, super early on. This is like, 6 4, and like, that creates time as, as like, a resource for them to come back. And that's why you see like, so many weird games at the top tables, whereas at like, the bottom tables, everything is like, always following like, the standard progression.
Abaan:And, like, a lot of times, good players can put words to what they were thinking and stuff, like, if they wanted to, But if you're actually, if you were able to like, you know, be a fly on the wall, like in their brain, it's not that complicated. They're definitely not thinking like, oh no, like, six of four, like this, this, this, they're just like, it's just obvious. Like it's just obvious that this position is not going to work out if you just, yeah, I mean, you can call it aura if you want. The point is like, it's, the point is like, yeah, it's just obvious to anyone who's like, I don't think I've played this game enough, so it's like, oh, I mean, I can't progress down this path,
Liam:Yeah, dude, that's like one of the most important things you should be working on as like a newer player. Like, if you have access to somebody better than you, and most people do, unless you're like Tord like, you should be, you should be thinking about positions and like, hopefully like consulting this player better than you on their opinion on those positions as well. Like, you should be self evaluating how good your board is. And like, whether or not you're winning, because that's like, that's probably the biggest factor in determining, like, which routes you should be taking, like whether or not you're winning. You know, I think people like, mis evaluate this like, all the time, and it's really hard to do and it takes like, a ton of experience,
Abaan:and, another
Liam:like,
Abaan:oh, I was gonna say, another thing that I think a lot of people get focused on, that I think is wrong, is I feel like I don't consider the micro aspects of playing Pokemon at all, like, when I'm just, I just, that part comes naturally, like, Ultra Ball? What am I gonna Ultra Ball away? I don't think that hard at all, like, it's just, It's just natural right? The things that I'm thinking about during my turns and stuff is like, very macro concepts. It's like, oh I need to do this this turn, and then like, I don't even know what happens in between like, the start of my turn and the end of my turn, but just like, I'm naturally just playing cards and like, trying to reach that end goal, and like, I feel like I see newer players, like outlying locals and stuff, get super, like, hung up on, like, stupid things that don't matter, like, or, Sure, you shouldn't ultra all the way two important cards, like, but it shouldn't be that hard to know what's important, and it should just be, like, a rip, like, Ultra ball, discard these two, like, they don't have macro plans, and I, I think it's because a lot of their decisions are, like, locked in on, like, What is my next action gonna be? Like, what is the literal next card I'm playing? Which is, like, not a good way to, like, think about it, I think.
Liam:yeah, I assume Cam is thinking this right now, so I'll just say it for him. I think, I think for a lot of newer players, it's because it's not automatic, like, for, for people with like, more experience, like You know, you can just, you can just tell what the bad cards are, but like, newer players, they like, they have like short term memory loss when it comes to this stuff, like, they forget what the cards in their hand like, even do, so they have to like, you know, like, you have to read it, and then you ultra Oh, I, that is like, that seems kind of good, I guess. Oh, maybe I should ultra ball it, and then like, that's like where all their thinking goes. Like, you, you, you,
Cam:like, they're just thinking for the turn. There's just so many times. I don't know, I remember just one game that really sticks out. I was playing against Keon in like the finals of a cup. And Keon Amini is a really good player. And just someone came up to me afterwards and they're like, Why don't you do this and this? And I just like, while I was just sitting there with Keon, I was like, well if I do that, then Keon just needs to hit this and this and this and I lose the game outright. But, so it's just like, it doesn't matter like. Like, that, that progression, that playstyle, like that game plan, moving that way, I just lose no matter what. We're, we're headed to a dead end of me losing. Like, here I have a chance, it's not a great chance, and I just think, like, people, especially as you get to the mid game, and like, you haven't, like, figured out, like, those small things that have happened in the early game, that now, like, heading into the late game, like, there's only, there's, like, only one line for you to win, or, like, you need to hope that they miss sometimes people don't take that into account, and they're just like, I'm just used to doing these things on this progression chart, and I'm just gonna do it, because that's
Abaan:And one aspect that's, like, irreplaceable from practice is, like, the ability to estimate the likelihood of different things happening. Like, if you just have played against a deck enough, you can estimate, like, what is the most annoying thing. Like, is it more annoying for me to kill their Manaphy and make them find Rod Ball? Or is it more annoying for me to kill their Attacker and make them find more Energies? Or, like, is it more annoying to kill their Engine and Iono and, like, make them find Gust Raw? Like, there's so, like, And I think that Pokemon is too complex to give real percentages that are like, mathematically proven, right? So you kind of do just need to like, have like a feel, like of like, oh, I mean, this is clearly harder to get.
Cam:And I think that's what I do a lot in coaching, is like, the kids will ask me, Hey, so what should I do in this position? It's like, we're here in the endgame, so much is predicated on like, you need to ask to see the discard, you need to ask to see what's in the loss zone, like, you need to see what's left, it's like, so much is predicated off of like, what has been used up to this point, and what is remaining, and that like, Like, that's what's gonna decide it, like, 90 percent of the time what is correct, or if not even 100 percent of the time, what is the correct play to go to. And then it's just like, they're just thinking, like, oh, I just do this every single time. It's like, no, you can't just do X thing every single time, because every Pokemon game is different. Every, like, like the path to, every path to get there is not always the same.
Abaan:Yeah, if you could, you could boil this game down to a flowchart. The problem is the flowchart would be like, like, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PAGES LONG, like, like, there'd be small ass, like, very, like, different issues, like, Oh, dang, this mission's actually completely unique because of the extra switch card they had to burn to get here. So, like, that's actually, like, a whole different tree that we have to take now, because he's, like, down to one, er, he's down to zero switch cards. That's often a big win condition against Lostbox. Like, oh, they're down to zero switch cards, so, like, I can do certain things. Like, maybe I can hit their thing for 220, and then Monkey Dory kill it next turn. Like, if I'm playing Guardi or something random, like, like, there's just certain trees that, like, the most niche thing, but, like, I mean, you can't control it when you're playing Lostbox. Like, what switch you're gonna draw. Like, sometimes all the switches you see are switch cards. Like, it happens.
Liam:yeah. Lostbox like running out of resources, like, that happens basically like every game I play against Lostbox players that are not like world class, they run out of some resource. Like, they just do. And that's like always something that you can like exploit to create some winning chances. Marcos Cifuentes, he never ran out of anything. Well, the stuff he ran out of became irrelevant. He just Ah, ah, ah. Aura! Oh, the cards are good! Oh my god. Yeah, so he's tough. But, yeah, you should, you should be, people should be checking discards a lot. Like,
Cam:Or
Liam:people don't do that enough.
Cam:another way to do this is like something I did when I played Alex Dramansky is he mulliganed a couple times against me, and I just saw like, electric energy, I saw Earthen Vessel. I think at some point early on, like, he flashed, like, another, I think he, oh, he flashed Thornton. I think, like, he discarded with an Ultra Ball. And in my mind, I was just like, Bro, there's so many tech cards here that I've seen that are just not standard. I'm gonna make a bet that you don't play Fluttermane. Because you're playing all these other cards. I'm just gonna make a RIP call and just like try to RIP you like and I did that and then after game one he doesn't play to it and it's like okay now I just I just read you I just ripped the game off you I'm just have to do the same thing again and I started thorns again and it's just like oh you can just make a call sometimes and like you just have to base your gut off of it and like sometimes it won't work but if you if you call it right you're just like oh I just have you and you just
Abaan:Free wins are the most valuable thing,
Liam:in the world though, is when you hit like some absolute teched out fiend and you see like seven tech cards that are non standard and you're like dude you had to make space for this somehow and you like bet that they cut something and then they drop it too you just lose it's like the worst feeling in the world
Cam:Yeah.
Liam:yeah i mean those people always get punished in the long run because you know you
Abaan:I don't know, if you look at Japan, it's like the peak of that though, right? Like in Japan, they do all that, and then they have room for like, whatever the card you're thinking of, they got it somewhere. And then they just win.
Liam:they bench like palkia turn one and then you're like you You take a KO and they get like stamped EHAMMER GIFT and you're like, oh damn, all right.
Cam:Oh, damn! Wasn't expecting that from ChenVal, but I guess I
Abaan:That is actually crazy, I'm imagining that right now. I would be unbelievably triggered, like, I think I I'd have to go walk or something, that is crazy work.
Liam:right?
Abaan:It's it's always that though, man, they always got that 1x3. They're like, damn bro, there's no way you can have this, and then they hit you
Liam:Yeah. Yeah,
Abaan:say that's the only part of best of three I like, which is why my suggestion, which I think is going to be probably poorly received though, is I want to play best of one open decklist. Because I don't like, like, I think the only reason it's acceptable that you can gimp people with your stupid tech card is that, in theory, you can play two to three games. Like, if you're playing a fast deck with some gimpy tech card and then you just lose the next two, like, That's lit, right? So, or at least, like, that's, like, more fair to me. Because then, like, you can still win your game 2 or 3 with, like, standard, but at least now I get a chance to know about your stuff. So I'd rather just best of 1 open decklist and have, like, the most gigabrain game 1 ever.
Liam:I, I would have disagreed like, maybe like a year or two ago, because I think a really big part of the game right now, and I think, I think it's like somewhat skill intensive, and it rewards like card knowledge, is being able to like, have accurate guesses as to like, what is the chances your opponent plays like X, Y, or Z and often like multiple cards at the same time. However, I think that's like largely been removed in high level matches, Especially in like a one sided way because like it turns out like one guy was on stream in round 12 and now the other guy just like has his 60 and and the the first guy doesn't. And like that kind of imbalance is just like so easily solved by Open Decklist and then it of course has the the benefit that Obann mentioned. And so
Abaan:I also think inherently, we're not playing a symmetric game, and a lot of our thoughts have to be, like, revolved around it not being symmetric. Should the fact that your deck doesn't have gimmicky one offs be a disadvantage to you? Like, if you choose to play a 60 that's extremely consistent with no text and 4 of, like, everything, like, Why sh should you really ban an event because your opponent like plays like that one of like, I don't know, Defiance ban that you didn't expect and they catch you, like And in a deck that never plays Defiance Men, they just decided to wake up one day and throw it in there, right? I think that's not something that necessarily has to be rewarded, and I always try to make sure you don't punish the person not doing anything wrong, right? And I think the person who is just playing a standard list that isn't trying to get cheesy wins and believes it's going to win, like, perfect knowledge, high level games, that person isn't doing anything wrong and shouldn't have to deal with the inherent EV loss of just like, oh, sometimes I'm going to lose, like Random nonsense, and like, I'm gonna have to take the next two games fast.
Liam:sure. I don't, I don't have like a preference towards like, oh, like if you're doing XYZ you should be like rewarded or unrewarded, I think these are just like things that naturally kind of come with it, but yeah, I mean, losing to to random garbage is always pretty tilting, right?
Cam:Yeah,
Liam:anytime I see somebody complaining about that kind of stuff, I'm like, jesus louisus, man, like, I think so many people treat cards that they haven't seen before as like an impossibility. Like, they're like, okay dude, Roxanne's gone, I guess I'm just gonna like, walk into second Roxanne. And like, you don't have to, but they're just gonna do it anyway, because they're like, nobody plays two Roxanne. And then like, they get two Rox second Roxanne, and they're like, oh my god bro, the game just hates me, like I can't believe this guy. Even though like, they literally did it to themselves.
Abaan:I will say, a lot of times when I hear those stories, I just think, like, Dude, that guy could be on the crack 60, and like, there's a real valid reason to play 2 Roxanne, and like, you are actually just like a stepping stone in his path of people like, he was like, knowing that would get screwed over by 2nd Roxanne, and like, in specific examples like that, I don't feel too bad for them, but I do, do feel for people when it's like, a card that truly like, doesn't belong on the deck, or like, has never, even if it belongs on the peak version of the deck, like, if it's never been seen before, like, it's like, their innovation. I I get that they're rewarded by winning the game against you, but it just feels terrible, like, maybe it was correct the whole time, but like, it just sucks, like, it's the first time you're ever seeing that card in that deck, and they got you.
Liam:Yeah, no, I mean, there's definitely, like, sometimes, where, like, you're like, alright, dude, this is, like a 1 percent card in the deck, it's in, like, 01 decks online, and, so, I'll give it that kind of credit, and that, that means that this other move is the best play, and you are making the best play, and then you just get, like, giga punished, right? There's definitely those cases as well.
Cam:I mean, I think there's, like, I don't know, like, when those situations come up, I think as a player, you should also just think about it. This is just, like, another one of those things where people just, like, Oh, there's no way this person just plays this, like, the standard, like, this plays this. And sometimes I'll just catch myself during games, it's like, Okay, so the only way I lose here is if this person If the person plays a Roxanne and then I think about it and it's like, that might be crazy, but is it really that crazy if someone just randomly plays a Roxanne like this master and sometimes you just have to make a read on the player, like, I don't know,
Liam:Yeah, bro, like, if they've been playing for it, like, the whole game, like, you should not walk into it, even if you've never seen it before. Alright,
Cam:this is just another thing of just like people going on autopilot and just like, oh, I'm just assuming that you're going to play like this and then like, you have to understand there's like 2, 700 masters and like. They're gonna be playing weird sh weird stuff, they're gonna do weird things, I don't know.
Liam:we've been going for a solid hour now. Yeah, we somehow got to the end of an hour with zero major events. Lasted like two weeks, but I hope everyone enjoyed.
Abaan:have a problem, bro, I promise
Cam:Easy!
Liam:Paul's our outro. We will be somehow yapping about even more stuff next week.