Ep2 - Real People with Real Purpose with Mary Nicoll

It is our pleasure at It's Mental today to be joined by Mary Nicoll to give us an insight into Coercive Control and most importantly sharing her story for the first time.

Being a victim for over 20 years going through adversity and emotional manipulation. Through pure grit, determination and being able to draw on her personal strengths and resilience. Mary transformed herself by researching and studying "The Dynamics of Coercive Control" for the last 10 years to become a qualified Coach and Mentor, in return helping others through this agonising experience.

She lives by her new purpose "Regain myself and my dignity and transcend that on to others".

Transcript

Stephen Robinson: 0:00

Okay, so Welcome to the next episode of real people with real purpose. And I'm delighted to have Mary Nicoll on as my guest today. And for them people that don't understand coercive control, or maybe experiencing it and don't understand it. You know, hopefully today This will give you a further insight into you know Marie's story and, and, you know, to transform yourself and how to overcome certain situations. So, Mary, thanks for coming on today. Thank you. It's a great pleasure. And I'm just going to just jump straight in really to your story, because it's, you know, very intriguing. It's very inspiring. And so obviously, you experience in a victim, of course, you control for about 21 years. Yes, that's right. And, and obviously, within that time, there's a lot of different situations that you experienced that some traumatic, some was open up, put it just scary times, and and then the unknown at that at that stage to coercive control. Yes. And you've been on obviously, add one hell of a journey at the same time. Yes. Do you want to just start in your own words, just tell us about that story?

Mary Nicoll: 1:24

Hi, Steven, Well, firstly, thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate that, because it's been a very long journey to get to this point of all along, as I journeyed along, this was, you know, eventually, I hoped to get to the point where I'd be able to speak about my situation and help other people the way I can, because now it's sort of becoming more of a globally spoken about coercive control. And I think it's very confusing for, for people who have been in it, are still suffering from it. And for those people who don't understand what it is, so in my situation, I was in a relationship for just over 20 years. And one might ask, Well, you know, how come you didn't know, over 20 years, and you know, he many domestic violence people, or victims, say, you know, why were they in, it's such a long time. But this is the whole point. From the very beginning. The isolation started, but it wasn't apparent at first. Because, you know, when you're newly married, or in a relationship, there's a trust, you know, you trust that everything's, you know, you're on the same playing field, so to speak. Yeah. And, but very quickly, he isolated me. into different environments, moving out of my home country, and then learning different language, that was a challenge, but I'm somebody who, I've got a music background. So I'm used to just focus and self discipline, and, you know, I'm sort of a person who wants to give their best, so I just went along. Um, but there was still no help with anything. And at that stage, at that stage, we still, you know, we didn't have any children. And so I started to actually teach some piano again. And that's where he started behaving very strangely, you know, he would laugh and take my money and things like this, but it's, you know, it wasn't very obvious. And then following through that, we started moving, you know, to and fro different, different continents over over these 21 years, quite a few times. And during that time, you know, we had young children. And, at first, you know, I would just believe whatever he would tell me, and the isolation started to really get to me, and the lack of social interaction. And when I started to actually meet people, it was very hard to maintain long term friendships or stability. And because we weren't expatriates, I didn't get all the luxuries of having help. And all the rest of it, he left always it up to me, I had to do absolutely everything in every different environment that we're in with all the family responsibilities. And, as at different times, we were where I started to pick up my music profession, in terms of having, you know, training and as the children got a bit older and just training and getting opportunities for recitals and things like being part sort of taking part in different things. Even though because of visas and different things. I wasn't able to earn a living at that stage. He would do everything he could to sort of sabotage and over time, I started to get very tired and worn down. And when I started to challenging, that's really when things started to get very difficult. Because what I have learned, and for those other victims, or people who have been in this situation, you learn not to challenge, because that's when things get very difficult when they start manipulating or when I was when the way the manipulation starts initially, because that's really what it is. And then of course, there's different scales of it. They're very good at the charm factor, or, you know, the poor me factor. And then when those factors don't work, well, then it's the you don't challenge me, and this is where the actual intimidation comes in. And the fear factors come in. And then, as the fear factors come in, you don't really know. So you try to think, or maybe it's my fault, and so forth. So they start projecting everything onto you. And that's why a lot of victims feel guilt, they feel guilty when they come out. And they keep trying, what is it that I've done, you know, I can't, I don't know what I've done. And so, in my case, what, what he would do is if he got upset, he would just abandon me wherever I was. And he could disappear for hours or whatever. So not knowing what I've done wrong. And then if he came back, it was as if nothing was, nothing had happened, there was no discussion, no explanations. And I kept thinking, I'll have to keep trying harder, whatever, whatever it is. Anyway, as far as that's where the language factor comes in, and I think this is an interesting aspect of it, because he never actually raised his voice. He never actually hits me. So it was very calm, very controlled. But feelings of not sure what exactly what was going on. So it was a bit of a Jekyll and Hyde character, if you like. And for punishment, you know, or what he would do, or when things got very difficult. He would really tighten the reins financially, economically. So, for example, I wasn't allowed to go out for coffee. Okay, or eventually, you know, he didn't like me speaking to people and comments like that were made on one occasion, unable where I was where we were living at the time spoke to me and he said, Oh, is your husband not very happy, I spoke to him and said that he should take you out. And that's where the isolation It was really starting to wear me down. And the constant moves, and just the, the mocking of my of my profession, of anything I did. And then, as far as the purchases goes, I wasn't allowed to buy anything for the household. And on later on down the track, when I was able to earn a little bit of money on the side with my piano teaching later on further down the track, that sort of went towards household goods and things like that. And if I was on a very small budget, so he would complain if I bought the wrong fruit for the season or something like if I bought strawberries, and it wasn't season, that was a waste of money, or there was some vegetables off in the refrigerator, that would be like a great drama, or what on one occasion, he took me out for a meal and complained, because I sort of ordered the cheapest thing on the menu, because I was so used to having nothing. And I got into trouble for that. So whatever I did, it was always the wrong thing. And so And over time, and also, you know, people had told me, you know, when you're not around, he rolls his eyes, and he's mocking you and things like this. It was always that mocking tone, and, and joking tone, and not always giving me a name, or an S, as things as I started to challenge him more. That's when it got very, very difficult. And I got very, very sick, my body started breaking down, and I hadn't even realized it. And then finally, I went to I found a very good doctor who was both a medical and expert homeopathic doctor. And he told me that you're absolutely exhausted, it's going to take a long time for you to rest. But I still had to keep going. And I kept pushing myself harder and harder. And at one point I said to I said to him, I said, Look, I need to go to the gym. You know, I said to him, I need to go to the gym and do some exercise. He said, No, you can't go you've got too much to do, because I didn't have any money to go to the gym. So you have to find other ways of doing things. So eventually that went on and Until finally thought as things came, you know, I got sicker and sicker, the doctor was quite worried about me. And his behavior became erratic. And then I thought, well, there must be something that's, I don't know what I'm experiencing. I can't. I don't it's not domestic violence, because I can't prove anything. I can't go, you know, I can't what what am I supposed to say he had a funny look on his face. And he said a funny word or whatever. So one day, I went into a, into a bookstore, where in the area that we were at the time, and I didn't have any money. And I thought, Okay, I'm going to find out, there has to be something that I'm being subject to, because nothing made any sense. So I came across some I'm very intuitive. And I went into this bookstore and I went to the, like, the psychology section. And within a French bookstore, actually, and I went in there, I didn't have any money to buy a coffee or anything. And so I wandered around, I'm like, okay, I don't know what I'm looking for. But there has to be some explanation. So I happen to come across this book by a French psychiatrist, or Mary Sarkeesian. And the English translation is stalking the soul. And I just decided it wasn't a very big book was any small book, and I just sat down and read it. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I can identify some of these these situations. And of course, like, you know, a lot of victims. In the case of coercive control victims where they've got no evidence of anything, things appear on a spectrum. Depends on the on the abuser, of course, and their levels of manipulation, and so forth. And so I, it sort of gave me an awakening. And from there I thinking, Okay, so I had that in mind. So from that point on, I was a little bit more alert, if you like, and I'm thinking, Okay, that the behavior is still not, you know, not great. But then I'm, then you fall back into our Well, you make excuses, again, because they're very good at putting on that victim role. And the interesting factor is actually, with these types of relationships, what I've realized, is an actual fact, they make the victims very dependent, because of the isolation and the fear factors and all of that. And they actually, they're the ones who are actually the dependent ones. So everything sort of gets back to front, if you like, and all their projections, that's all their, their issues, or their behaviors, and they projected onto their victim. So it was from that point on, that I started searching more girls. And that was really the, the actual beginnings of me trying to figure out what was going on. But that wasn't still the end, there was still, I was still trying to sort of maintain a household and train my instrument and things like that. But things sort of got worse and worse than the abandonment issues and things like this, that attitude does looking through me. And the lack of resources, it was it was, I wasn't allowed to have any clothes used to make fun of even if I bought any sort of products on my skin or anything, I didn't have any money. So I used to buy little little bags, and then he'd make fun of that, you know, whatever I do, it was never good. So finally, when things actually sort of came to a head, if you like, and then when everything. And then I sort of exited the relationship, to put it very simply. I was in a really bad state. I'd returned back to my country, they my, the doctor said, you know, I'd had suffered a psychological tsunami, my body had broken down, I was suffering from complete exhaustion. And I still didn't really understand. And it was I got a little bit of help as from as an external client with one a domestic violence thing, but then that was still very in the early days of trying to understand and there were, there were a bit of help, the coercive control still wasn't spoken about. And then from that point on, in my recovery, I think it was trying to really understand this more and more. So I started reading it, I started researching it. Trying to get stronger all along, doing sort of different things. therapies and, and things. And so this took quite a long period of time over over time. And I'd say one of the most important factors for victims is, is what they do with people who come out of cold, it's very similar, is what they call psychoeducation. So it's trying to really understand the dynamic, because it's incredibly confusing. And that's why when victims come out of these situations, they don't really, they don't know what's happened to them, they can't explain it. It's, it's a very insidious thing. And it takes a while to really integrate, and, and really process all of that. So this went on, you know, for, for, up until the present time as I've been. It's been a to and fro, it's been a very long, painful journey. And I would say that my health, I mean, you know, I've been told it's quite a miracle that I've come and recovered to this extent, because I had to have physical strengthening, I had to rebuild my body health factors, my mind. And then that led me to doing had the opportunity here in the UK to do a coaching, master's coaching and mentoring certificate, which I thought could give me some foundation then for a means of helping other people at that stage. I still didn't know what I was going to be wrong. Okay. Yeah.

Stephen Robinson: 16:32

So can I just go back to just a couple of points that Yeah, before I bounce? In your word, you said the awakening? Yeah. Because we're going through your story. Obviously, this was panned over many years. Yeah. shortened it and yes, absolutely. But there was nothing really out there that you can relate to know, at that point. So finding this book, yes. was obviously that it's not just me sort of situation. It's, you know, this actually is a thing.

Mary Nicoll: 17:07

Yes. And I think, and I think I like the way you say it, I think, Steven because it is and, and for me, I know, like I know, coercive control is in, you know, the legal term they use and everything. But for people who don't have never heard of it, and who have never been victims of this coercive control, for me doesn't really what, you know, how do you describe it? I think, because if control is just basically different levels of manipulation, really, because that's the point of the coercion, you don't know. And it's really interesting, because one of the books that one of the many things I've read and researched, there's Judith Herman, who's well known research writer on trauma and recovery. And she talks about psychological abuse, actually. And she says, like, Franklin, and in the terms of victims of psychological abuse, when, like, for example, she relates to like political prisoners, for example, they know their political prisoners. So they know that they don't make any emotional connection. They don't they don't they very careful of this reward system. Whereas when you're a victim, something like coercive control, it's all mind games and manipulation. You don't go in there knowing that this is going on. So when the reward punishment, things going on, like if you behave well, then you know, you get a reward. This is basically how they function.

Stephen Robinson: 18:38

Yeah. I think another interesting point of your story as well, is that when you said it's really reverse is on the more of a time and the projecting, yeah, no, there are issues and problems on the basis because I think, obviously, the chats we've argued, you've have to think on your feet at times you're in survival mode allthe times, You have obviously become over that period of time in your very resilience in, in into survive and, and keep surviving and pushing on. Yes. But I think, you know, obviously, that just I'm just always interested in the turning point, you know, as in that book, and, and the feelings that must have give you that, because there's obviously more hope it's giving you hope, and more courage to take this further. Is that is that correct?

Mary Nicoll: 19:35

Yes, I think so. I think because up until that point, I didn't understand even when the doctor said you know, you're suffering exhaustion and all the rest of it. I still didn't understand what was going on. And and of course, you know, that was some time ago now, when I came across that book. And I think it's when I you know, was telling you about the psycho education and thing I think for For people who have victims of this, and for people who may be witness to, as coercive control have spoken a little bit more, and they can identify maybe some of the signs, and they might have a friend or recognize somebody, I think knowing to say, well hang on, you can pick up a book, and maybe you can get an insight into some of the things that might be going or there might be some cases that are very similar, or some of the dynamics and, and it's like a relief that because what what they, what these abusers do, they'll push you as far as they can. And to and to you sort of lose your your thinking capacity. And so because you are in survival mode. And that's why it's very difficult for when victims come out. And of course, once again, it depends on the level of the time and the other variables. It takes time because your your actual thinking brain has shut down because you live in a very narrow world. And I think just knowing that there's something that you can pick up and read, and doesn't have to be technical or anything, because you can't you're not in that. You're not able to at that stage, think of technical things, you think, oh, okay, this is a case history. This is written by a psychiatrist. And and some of these things, you know, they're making fun of or the isolation or taking your information and then use it and using it for themselves to discrediting the subtleties. And then the and the type of character traits that these people have. And then the the impacts on the on the victims. And yes, they they lose their sense of self, they have to be sort of rebuilt and just having that, knowing that it's not you. Because Yeah, yeah, and I think that is a very important thing for victims to know that. I think now there is more information out far more information out there now. And I think that definitely is like a light in a tunnel

Stephen Robinson: 21:59

moment. And just switching it a bit to the perpetrators that, obviously, because that's part of the education that you must have found yourself and wanted answers to? Yeah, it's just, you know, why is he doing this? You know, what's the angle, type of thing? What, what, what did you learn about that? And?

Mary Nicoll: 22:20

Well, I think, once again, you know, every situation is, is, is specific. Yeah. And depends on the duration, the character traits. And once again, it's on a spectrum, and of course, but what I have found is there are certain common traits, and they have, they lack empathy. They have an absolute, they are always right. They have a sense of entitlement. And, like, you know, they just think, Well, you know, you're, the goal is to actually control that's how they, that's what they want, they want their needs met. So whatever those needs are, they, you're, you're their subject, so you become subjugated to to them. And that's, and that, but it's very subtle, because they're also one of the fact is, is that generally speaking, what I have found, is though very charming, at first, very charming, and they have a very different persona in the social sphere. So it's, that's makes it even more hard, more more challenging for victims when they come out, because by the time someone comes out of these relationships, you know, depends once again, on the length of time and what support system they have in place and all the rest of it. But they come out, you know, sort of worn down to varying degrees. And there's the the perpetrator out there, like acting very charming and, and, and have a bit and they've presented a very different face to the public. And I've had that experience numerous times. And also the high they are up in because this can happen to anybody, it doesn't matter who it is along any socio economic sphere or wherever. But if the perpetrator the high, they are up on the socio economic scale, and the more influence they have and so forth in their careers or business or education, the harder it is, I think, for the victim because the victim has been isolated. Yeah. And then the perpetrator has maintained their context. So they consider it Yeah.

Stephen Robinson: 24:37

So yeah, obviously, the isolation is in so many ways, yes. He said, like you say, a cut off of resources, his social circle. So, yeah, I mean, you know, I didn't know much about this subject at all. And you know, I'm going on a few months ago, when we started talking In no way it's mental. And, you know, it's societies change. I mean, looking back over. And, you know, in the 70s and 80s. You know, I think society was a bit more like that, you know, not to that degree but controlling,

Mary Nicoll: 25:18

more patriarchal Yeah, yeah,

Stephen Robinson: 25:20

exactly. And it is changing. And that's probably through these this awareness that this is not right.

Mary Nicoll: 25:30

Oh, absolutely. And I think and, and within that, I mean, there are men who are victims, there is a, you know, but it's like, from what I understand, it's primarily women who are, but there are men, male victims, so I do want to bring that in. But, yes, very much patriarchal. And but i think i think the added thing with coercive control is the lack of respect and dignity, that the victims of the victims are really objectified, because it's not. It's not, they're not respected, they're cut with their resources. And so it's at, I think, sort of clarifying it from that from maybe the traditional roles in the past, where it was patriarchal. And that was accepted. But then within that, I'm sure you had this type of thing going on. Now it's coming to light. Yeah. And it really is the lack of respect, the lack of dignity, the dehumanization, the objectification of the of the victims, and, and they treated like children. So you come out, you completely lost when you sort of come out? And this is another thing as well, because

Stephen Robinson: 26:48

Did you find the support was there when you came out?

Mary Nicoll: 26:52

It took a long time. Because I'd moved around so frequently, was very difficult to maintain consistency, and so forth. You know, I came across a few professionals along the way, in the different areas were sort of gems, but I had to, you know, like society in general, till I just say, you know, you'd have things like, Oh, you know, just move on, or turn the page or, you know, always to have a relationship or whatever. But in these types of relationships, you can't pair it, compare it to a normal contextual situation. And I think that's one thing that people need to understand is when people are coming out of these types of situation, once they've been identified as victims of these situations. Personally, I think the worst thing, someone can say, oh, is move on. Because they sort of ended up just Well, what do I do now they've been conditioned to wait for whatever the perpetrator wants, you know, it's sort of simply speaking. So if you say to somebody like that, you know, turn the page or, you know, always to in a relationship or whatever, in these types of situations, it's not a normal, it's very toxic. And it's like having someone inject poison into to your mind and you're in your soul. And and it doesn't matter how small the amount. If you take any kind of poison, it has to be extracted. So take the time out.

Stephen Robinson: 28:32

Yes. What would you said to somebody, some of the listeners, people that's listening to this now with, they're probably listening to this and starting to realize that they may be in this type of toxic relationship? What advice have you got for them to know at that point?

Mary Nicoll: 28:53

Well, I think now there's more information. One thing I would say is, there's a lot on on the internet now. There are sites that if one thing if they are searching on the internet, to be very careful not to leave any trace of their searches for start. Yeah. I think first of all, now, coercive control is now sort of more talked about as far as domestic violence goes, contact their local domestic violence and also see if they are in a position to actually read anything. Excuse me. I think that there there's a lot more material out there. I know Evan Stark has written a book on coercive control. He's one of the main people I'm sorry about this. Okay. What about

Stephen Robinson: 30:00

He'll be coming low in 2015. What's your thoughts around that?

Mary Nicoll: 30:05

Well,

Stephen Robinson: 30:08

because 2015 seems not that long ago.

Mary Nicoll: 30:11

It does actually. Um, I think it's amazing. But I think it needs to be. It's very, very difficult to prove. And I think that for especially those, I think those who have had no physical, actual physical abuse, because when there's physical abuse, you can go and get doctors reports and so forth. But I think as far as the law, I think it's absolutely brilliant. But I think there still needs to be a greater awareness of what actually it is, in the absolute devastating effects on the victim. absolutely devastating. And, and being understood and being believed. That's a big factor. So I think the actual law, you know, come into place, I think it's absolutely brilliant. But I think it needs to be the victims really need to be supported, even if they can't prosecute the perpetrators, because like I said, it is very difficult to prove. And not all of them leave a trace, not all of them send abusive text messages, not all of them, the clever ones don't leave a trail. So the victim still need to be supported, once they've been identified. They really need to have those support systems in place. And I think it's a terrible crime, and I think perpetrators it needs to be they need to be made accountable for for what they've done to the victim. Definitely.

Stephen Robinson: 31:45

And do you think obviously, the legal profession is no more in tuned to what's up in tune with Emily rella in relation to coercive control? Do you think that there's a shift?

Mary Nicoll: 32:01

I think probably from I've sort of been one of the things that I've been sort of, I've been attending numerous constant conferences with the international cultic Studies Association. And so they deal now with coercive control across a very broad spectrum. And they have networks in there as well. And they talk more about things, I think, the the legal profession in general, I think, well, I'm, I'm not up to date, how it is at the moment, but I think with the greater awareness, but what I will say is, if anybody is out there, they need to find a therapist, if they they looking for any kind of professional assistance, and if they can't get it through, you know, through when I'm sure domestic violence now have support in place now with coercive control victims now things they've probably got some kind of legal aid, I would imagine with with, with legal people. But when I was going through, it was very difficult to find anybody to to help, but I would say that they need to find therapists and legal people who understand the problem, because if they just go to anybody, like, you know, for standards, it's going to be very difficult, very difficult, they really need to find and I'm sure there are means now through, you know, domestic violence networks and things like that where I'm sure, or even legal people they can might be able to find out through different organizations or, you know, you really have to find your way and navigate your way through that, that, but I think there needs to be more awareness, because with coercive control and the perpetrators, they're very, very good at manipulating everything.

Stephen Robinson: 33:55

And we also just do switching a bit, but it's still on the the point of manipulation is obviously the financial. Oh, absolutely. Well, I know, obviously, with your situation, now, some of the banks wouldn't even speak to you at certain points. So obviously, they've been manipulated. Oh, yes. in a different way.

Mary Nicoll: 34:16

That's right. That's absolutely right. I'm just trying to get information. And already if you put in the context of victims, and I'm sure you know, people who can identify with what I'm saying. The resources aren't just, you know, when you're in it, everything is tightened. to varying degrees. You know, of course, like I said, everything's on a spectrum. So every case is very specific, but the common factors and so when you come out and don't forget, you have to look at the type of common traits that I've realized just across what I've read, researched and experienced, and heard other people talk about they don't like losing people. Control and everything belongs to them. So they finance, the finances are absolutely, you know, why should you get anything, so and they can manipulate people around that and say whatever they want, and they believe this is this is the challenge. So that's a monumental when you come through something like this and trying to exit the situation, this is a very, very big challenge

Stephen Robinson: 35:28

is. So just go ahead and moving on now to to, obviously, your journey. And obviously, you've done a hell of a lot of study in and research yourself, you said you contacted and been involved in so many conferences about this subject. And, you know, just on the edge further education, do you want to just touch a bit more on that, and just give us a bit more of an insight on what you did on the degree and Cauchy? In level seven and things like

Mary Nicoll: 36:03

Yes, well, um, as I sort of put was healing was like, you know, these two and froing and as I progressed along and started to get stronger, and then I had to sort of move around still a little more, was difficult to sort of reboot my music career music profession, because I didn't have the resources and whatnot. And it was I did bits and bobs, but it wasn't getting anywhere, then I thought, well, how can I my desire in the back of my mind, as I was reading and researching, I've read so many books and researched and you know, been to these conferences, and done a few online things and, and really trying to understand it, and during which time I was continuing my, my various treatments, different degrees I can, you know, I was given the opportunity to do this some masters l certificate in coaching and mentoring, because my music skills were actually transferable. So, but not having had an academic background. And that was a huge challenge for me. So it was another challenge, but within that, what it actually did, it raised even more awareness of the importance of relationships and human behaviors. Yeah, and I think understanding human behavior, understanding the importance of respect and listening, and not judging because coming out of these relationships, it's, it's very hard for victims because they're not understood, they're not believed, and then judged and, and they can lose their skill set, they can lose, they can't think properly. And, you know, it's a major challenge, they basically have to start all over again, for those who have been at in a long time and over a long period of time. So that was very interesting. And from they are, that's where I've, that sort of led me to where I am today. And, you know, the opportunity to, to be part of your platform, which I'm very appreciative and, and sort of try to now as I continue to, to continue to work on myself and develop and just really be able to share my experience with other people with the knowledge that I've accrued over time because it's taken me a very long time very, very long time. And I had to sort of really climber an enormous mountain at the same time is going through my recovery which has been regarded as you know, quite amazing. And because if there's anything I would not like anybody if there are more and more people speaking out now across the globe about this you know, you hear about it more and more. And I want to be part of those people who do speak out because I think you know, anyone who goes through this I think victims need to be encouraged and recognized for the carrot food what they've been through and their and resilience to actually get through something like this and also to give people hope, because there is a light at the end of the tunnel and it's not their fault and that's an important thing to know

Stephen Robinson: 39:29

well i think i think you know what's absolutely amazing about this story is your strength your bravery to in to get through it and survive it and then but also now just turning it into a positive to actually you know, wanting to help others this point you know, in your life and studying and doing the the courtship mentoring in our can't think of anyone better to go to if, you know, somebody needs advice and direction and that sort of courtship I mean, what what, what is your purpose? What is? Have you got a mantra? Or have you got something that you you live by now or that you can share with us?

Mary Nicoll: 40:09

Yeah. So what I really want to be able to do is to, you know, continue to rebuild myself, to rebuild my dignity, and really transcend that onto other people. And give other people hope. And to know that there is hope there is light at the end of the tunnel, and they can do it. And now there are more resources out there, there is more information. And, and this is what is really needed. And, and they're not alone on the journey, even though it is a very, at times very lonely and hard. But they are not alone. And there is hope.

Stephen Robinson: 40:52

And I think I think that, you know, that's, that's brilliant, It's so inspiring. And, you know, your story and, you know, we talked at length in in more details before they some just the subject itself and bit more insight into story. But, you know, you could write a book on on this incredible story. And I just think, you know, for the for the listeners today, you know, this is the big step for Mary, because it's the first time she has shared this experience in our life experience. And I really appreciate it for, for letting us you know, broadcast this and ensure it's in a more open that people that are listening to this, it does help them and give them the courage and and some direction, because I think that's, you know, when Absolutely. And back to that awakening moment, I think just people are in it. And they don't know the religion,

Mary Nicoll: 41:50

that you generally speaking, you don't know you're in it. And maybe now there's more of awareness. But it's very hard when you're in it because you're on survival mode. And when it gets to a point and you might know something's off, but you don't quite figure it out. And I think, you know, just letting people know that there is information out there now. And there. There are resources available. And yes, and I think thank you for the opportunity, Steven to speak. And I just hope that you know, in my small way I can give other people hope as other people have given as well. So thank you very much. brilliant, brilliant.

Stephen Robinson: 42:29

So thank you, thank you for your time. And I just like to wrap up and say thank you for listening to another episode of real people with real purpose. Thank you