Welcome to the next episode of real people with real purpose. My guest today is none other than Natasha Jones. Thank you, Natasha for coming today. And they had numerous conversations Me and Natasha over the last few weeks, I would say, and what what a lady, I would say what a story, I think it's going to be a brilliant, listen for you. And we're just going to kick off with her story really, and just don't simply let her tell that story in your own words, and her experiences. And normally what you can get from this is some of them tips or advice, and a mainly some inspiration from this story. Okay, so over to you Natasha, just want to start where, where this? I would say in your life started to turn maybe for the right reasons, or the wrong reasons.
Natasha Jones:Yes, certainly. So Good morning. Thank you for having me. So I have been an employment lawyer for over 20 years. So my day to day job has been speaking to people who've been struggling. Usually, if they're struggling their personal life that eventually ends up in the workplace. And it's maybe only when they're about to lose their job. Or they're being put on a final warning that they see they can't carry on the way that they are. So my day job. I spoke to people help people. And that's what I did. from Monday to Friday. Then on a personal level, I reached, I suppose the key events, ay, ay, ay ay 29 had partnership in a law firm, and I got married to a man I loved very much. And we went on to have two children, a healthy boy and girl, life should have been perfect. And I suppose I was a swan. SAS above the water, going to work do my job. I think it was good at my job. But underneath the water, there was a lot of scrambling going on effectively. So sadly, when my children were seven, and four, and I got divorced, or I started divorce process, and the children, I had to set up a new home. And I expected it to be tough. And so I was very anxious. And but I said this is part of starting a new life divorces is is difficult. So firstly, I would say to anybody going through divorce. Somebody once said to me several years down the line, it's like going through open heart surgery, whilst you're awake, all of your organs are taken out, and you have no idea when they're going to be put back in, in what order or where they're going to be put in. So first of all, my heart goes out to anybody who's going through a divorce, especially if children are involved. So it's accepted, divorce is stressful. And I got things, lots of things wrong. So I probably could write a book, how not to get divorced or how not to spend your days whilst you're getting divorced. But we all learn from our mistakes, don't wait. So several years later, the children are resettled in a new home. And my work was going well. And I became aware I was waking up that first moment of coming into consciousness. I had a ball of anxiety, my stomach had butterflies in my stomach. And I'd lived like this for so long. And that I hadn't noticed it. So I began to be aware. Okay, what am I anxious about? What where's all this? Why is it happening? And I suppose that then set me on a different path.
Stephen Robinson:Right. Okay. So do you remember the time that you just thought enough's enough? Do you remember that day that moment that give you that trigger? Because just for some of our listeners, they're probably going through that emotion, and things in relationships aren't right. But do you remember that point? We said, I have to do something about it. There was what was the emotional feelings that because obviously that takes strength. If there's children involved,
Natasha Jones:I suppose the first couple of years, I my children came first. And I did whatever was necessary to keep their life stable. To keep things steady. I was watching both of them and thinking if one of them falls, I need to catch them. So my focus has, as for many parents was all about the children. And now further down the journey, I'd say that was a wrong approach. Because as a parent, unless you fill your own cup there is no overflow to give to anybody else. So my previous behavior, I would drain my own cup, I'd be absolutely on my knees, I would give to everybody else. But then there was nothing to give. Whereas, as I began a journey of doing what I could to help myself and fill my cup and, and strengthen my mind and body, well, then there was the cup was overflowing, and then others could drink from it, really. So that's a huge change in how I live today to how I lived going back five years ago. And I had two moments really, one was a subtle moment where I began to read. I read a book called The Secret, I don't know if anybody's heard of that. And then that starts to lead me on to reading other books. And I began for about 18 months to different to listen to different philosophers. Dr. Wayne Dyer, I'm a massive fan of him, Tony Robbins. So I began to widen I think my the breadth of my own reading, which then in turn led to a pivotal moment, when in Eastern philosophy, they say that the most beautiful vase is a vase that has cracked, because it's when the light is allowed in, that truly the beauty can be seen. And so I had probably for five years, being very anxious. And I repeatedly thought to myself, I should be further down the line than this. I'd expected when I got divorced, to be to be in a new relationship, to be remarried, had all these expectations of myself. And then I had a real conversation with myself back two years ago, Summer 2019 at a real conversation myself, and I felt for the first time in my life, I was wobbling, I couldn't get my steer. If I were to ship Hi, I was just floating at sea, I couldn't find direction. It seemed absolutely every painful experience, a memory came to the surface. If anybody's familiar with the phrase of the ego, the mind voice, the chimp voice, the voice that aerates you might I couldn't turn mine off. And I was permanently looking back to the past. with regret, I was looking to the future with fear. I became quite obsessed. What if I died alone? Which now it seems, it seems almost unbelievable that I was spending so many hours in the day with my mind saying to me, what if you die alone? So there was after a few weeks of really struggling and aware that in front of my children, and I was trying hard to look like I was keeping it together. I began one day I said, right, enough. I have to change things. So I started to make small changes to my daily life. Really?
Stephen Robinson:So just going I just want to step back a bit, which is the uncomfortable feelings, which is the the anxiety because obviously you mentioned that you had anxiety on a daily basis for a few years. Yeah. Would you say about two years? Or
Natasha Jones:I will probably say 10 years of myself I would say probably for 10 years? Yeah,
Stephen Robinson:so I mean how did you cope with that? What were your coping mechanisms that you used
Natasha Jones:to distract
Stephen Robinson:yourself to distract yourself and get through the day? Yeah, to be
Natasha Jones:so very busy. I didn't have time to think. So either putting everything into my children and then when the children I had a new home, when my children would go stay with their dad, I kept myself that busy. I did not give myself chance to stop and think distract, distract, distract.
Stephen Robinson:Okay, and then but when you came to them points of thought and obviously then them dark moments. You know, what was the turning point that you started to get some I would say some light at the end of the tunnel that you thought this is the direction I need to go in and it's making me feel more positive within myself and starting to move forward.
Natasha Jones:So summer 2019. The first change was that if I'm waking up with a tight ball of anxiety let's do something as soon as I wake up, so rather than the lay in bed, and I've always been an early wake, so I naturally my circadian rhythm is in so in the height of summer I wake up at 4am and then sort of in December I are sleeping a little bit but Sunrise i i've always since I was a child. And so the first thing I did is said, Stop beating yourself up. Because it was the summer stop beating yourself up that you're awake, you're waking up at 5am
or 4:30am. But instead of lying in bed, then for an hour or so dwelling on the anxiety, and it growing and growing, gets straight out of bed. And I was listening at the time to philosopher, Dr. Wayne Dyer, who said, actually, between four and 5am is a magic time. And it's a time of day when the world is quiet, and you can collect your thoughts. So use that time. So I thought, okay, I'm lying now, sort of before five, bracing myself for being away, go back to sleep, you can't go back to sleep, what's worrying me and then thinking about my worries, so I would get straight out of bed, stick on my trainers. And I began to go for early morning walks. They then turned into early morning runs, and I would then get back. And the children were still asleep. But I felt a million times better than I had done when I'd woken up. And for every day I did that it got better and better. So instead of dreading waking up in the morning, I chose not to think about whether I felt anxious I just soon as consciousness would dawn on me effectively get out of bed stick on my running stuff and out of the door. But I would run it off. I was listening to Wayne Dyer at the time, listening to his podcasts. And I was proud of myself running further and further and further. But then I'd walk through the door and my endorphins were lifted. And I was telling starting the day on a positive note where for such a long time I'd been waking and having to drag myself up. Just to try and face the day with a smile. Yeah. So that was the first thing to go was this so long ago. That was summer. 2019. Right. So not
Stephen Robinson:so nice. So definitely change your routine. Absolutely.
Natasha Jones:And then the beauty of an early morning routine is I began to sleep better, right? I began to feel tired. And then I was going to sleep earlier but what I was doing is rather than being anxious What if I wake up too early, I was naturally falling asleep earlier. So then my body was taken asleep it needed in my natural waking sleeping patterns as opposed to trying to force myself to sleep till six or 7am it was okay to wake up at 4.30 because I'd gone to sleep at 10 o'clock and I've had a good six and a half hours sleep. Yeah, I've been I've been a poor sleeper nearly all my life. I sleep walk so people who know me well have many, many a funny story about my sleepwalking antics. But sleepwalking stopped. The sleepwalking stopped. I began the first time in my life to night after night have a decent night's sleep. And I attribute that to getting up quickly out the door and getting some outside some fresh air. And whether it's walking or running only takes 20 minutes before your endorphins are lifted.
Stephen Robinson:Yeah. I'm just gonna go before you went to sleep now. Is there any routine that you change there as your bedtime routine? Just because obviously the connection to sleep walking?
Natasha Jones:Yeah, well, so indeed. So I've seen a sleep therapist in my teens, because actually my law finals when it was really important. I could concentrate on
Stephen Robinson:one of the stories you sleep
Natasha Jones:My sleep walking? Well, it was actually it was the only time I've really hurt myself. And a friend had just moved house and she it was white carpets and white walls. They'd renovated a nice old house and I leapt out of bed. But unfortunately budget was on top of a flight of stairs. And I slept walk straight down the stairs. Well I fell down the stairs but I was asleep. So I was actually to this day it's shocking and didn't break my neck but I was relaxed because I didn't know what I was doing. I woke up so I went down the stairs headfirst. My osteopath later told me what happened because she could tell by my back would happen. But I hit my head on the wall and slipped my head and I ended up coming back down the stairs and I hit my head on a closed door and I then woke up because the bang the head woke me up. And I my poor friend heard this thump and I made my way back up the stairs to try and find some lights and she opened the door and put a light on and there were bloody handprints up her brand new painted walls and drips of blood on her carpet basically. So that is huge. I've hurt myself. And usually the stories of the people I have no idea the stories that people tell. So that's one that there was a there was proof.
Stephen Robinson:Okay, sorry. But so going back to your routine and you was?
Natasha Jones:Okay. Yes. So I'd seen a sleep therapist who said, TVs don't help sleep. They're the enemy of sleep. And she and this is before we had phones, and we had tablets. And she explained that during the day, our senses are overwhelmed. All five senses into this 10s of 1000s. And so the brain needs to close down before we can sleep. All a TV does is pause it. So explained why. I was watching TV in bed, falling asleep to the TV, but then waking An hour later, and then I couldn't get back to sleep. So I was physically tired, hence drifting off to sleep. But I hadn't wireman my mind down. So she said, You need to establish a bedtime routine and having a hot bath, or shower, raising your body temperature. And then it drop in will help encourage sleep. Yeah, reading a book. But try and stay, don't don't watch TV in the last half an hour before he went to sleep. If we fast forward now, and we will have phones and tablets. In the summer of 19, I began to be aware that if I was messaging, and near to bedtime, I couldn't get off to sleep. So I started deliberately setting my devices on airplane mode. My children, I can't pick what they say to say to their friends about me because we have a house rule. And the all devices go on charge at the latest at 9pm. Mine goes on sometimes as early as 7.30. Airplane mode on in a different room. There's no temptation, there's no notifications. So I don't I don't as a matter of I don't know pretty much since summer 19. I resist messaging in the evening, because we're looking at the screens of blue lights waking our body up. Physically, it's confusing for our body. If you think of caveman. As the sun was going down, the body naturally slept, they would sleep in darkness and they would get up in light. We're kidding our bodies because the blue lights are giving mixed messages. So my evening routine of phone on airplane mode out of the way, having a bath, reading a book. Pretty much 95% of the time I've gone from an insomniac to get in between six, seven hours solid sleep. If I'm really tired occasionally for over Christmas, actually, but eight hours, which was a bit surprised, but we were we had so much darkness Really? So I've gone from almost having an anxiety about the thought of sleep. Because if you are an insomniac being awake in the middle of the night, seeing the clock turning over, knowing you've got a big day ahead of you, but you're physically tired and you can't sleep. It's a horrible loop to be horrible loop.
Stephen Robinson:Definitely. There are a lot of people I've been there and probably still aren't going through it. So this journey that you started in summer 2019. What what are the things I've incorporated? So you've given some brilliant advice there. What are the things are the journeys Have you been on? Is there any of the journeys you can share with us
Natasha Jones:So about four weeks into getting up going out today? for a run, coming back feeling brilliant. And I've always enjoyed coffee, and caffeine in the evening, I realised interfered with my sleep. So I didn't tend to have caffeine after lunchtime. But I came back this particular day, it was a beautiful day. I'd had a great run and I was feeling the benefit of I'd been maybe 2025 days doing it. And I'm starting to feel hopeful again and have a morning coffee. And I thought my heart surge and that ego voice started again that that fear that looking back to the past that fear of the future. And sort of stopped and thought, wow. Caffeine stock just on that has it. And then I sort of shook it off. And then it happens again the next day. So I started researching caffeine. Oh my word. So when you Google caffeine, and you see the chemical reaction and what it does to the brain. If you have a smidgen of anxiety in your body. What does caffeine do? It heightens it. So it is the most widely used and properly least understood drug in the western world. Yeah, but the link, all I can say is if you are anxious in any way caffeine will just up it, probably 10 times, so I switched to decaf. I still drink caffeinated tea, but I swapped decaf coffee. And oh my word. So if I started the day better, and then if I was getting a kick of caffeine at around 11 o'clock, I then remove the caffeine and went to decaf. And now your Starbucks your Costa? Your, Nespresso machines. It smells the same. I would challenge anybody these days. In the old days, if you had caffeine, it was like a water it decaf. It was watery. And it was, Why bother. But we're in a different world now. So I would urge anybody try try switching to decaf coffee next time the diet of coffee in it.
Stephen Robinson:Yeah, indeed, you swap full fat coke. Can you? Yeah, we used to order Diet Coke in the same way with decaf.
Natasha Jones:But decaf has gone from strength to strength. And for me, if occasionally I've asked for decaf, and I'm given caffeine because it happens quite sudden, I know. I can tell. And it's not the end of the world. It's not that I'm allergic to it. But if I'm trying to, to to be the best version of me, I'm trying to quiet that voice in my mind and and and live in the most cheerful calm way. And they're not having caffeine. caffeinated coffee, has definitely helped.
Stephen Robinson:And being in the type of career that you've got and stuff. And, you know, I pressured meetings and things like that, that was the norm wasn't it,
Natasha Jones:oh, gosh, a pot of coffee knew if you were holed up with clients, basically in the days, obviously, for social distancing. It'll be coffee pot after coffee pot, basically. And I actually think back to those days very highly charged, fighting caffeine. No wonder I didn't sleep. Because you know, my brain was in fight mode. The caffeine basically would accentuate in that the whole energy around me. It was just fight, fight, fight, fight, fight.
Stephen Robinson:So do you think that's what we've been through? And things like you seem like in an executive world, do you think what we've been through with COVID? And and all the thing advice that's been out there on well being and things like this, do you think that's going to have impact on them hi pressured meetings like they were? And if they say people will approach them differently, or not?
Natasha Jones:Well, it's interesting because, I've written a book. And it's my observation of, particularly males, middle aged males, and the working environment, especially law, and that business world, that legal world where it's a stiff upper lip, and when would somebody be able to say, Have you got any decaf coffee? 10 years ago? No, I don't think anybody would have dared to actually not go along with what was the persona and you do this and you do that you're in your suit your fight whatever. And, ideally, hope, what the pandemic has taught us is that we're only on this earth once. We only get one bite at the cherry. And the more we talk about anxiety, the more we all admit we're not quite as okay, as we say we are. And it's okay to say you're not okay. Then maybe people can be a bit braver.
Stephen Robinson:Yeah!
Natasha Jones:Or maybe people can help people by by being braver. And when you get eyes on somebody. And you see that they're, they don't look okay. You can just say you, okay?You know, ask them to tell you their life story, but you just check in with people. And the case I've had as a lawyer, join COVID. I've seen some heartbreaking occasions which have come through the backdoor as disciplinaries. But of somebody who is really, really struggling and everybody's landscape on COVID is different. Everybody's landscape on lockdown is different to people who live in the same house and have different lockdown landscapes. But the people who are already struggling and people who are suffering from depression, naturally isolate themselves. If they're effectively socialisation with the workplace and they've not been going to work. Nobody's had eyes on them. And instead of thinking, why's Jim Smith, why does it keep missing a team's meeting, why does this camera not work? How come he's failed another deadline? Instead of thinking? Is he okay? The instinct is right, discipline him, sack him do this do that. So I've been involved in a lot of cases where I've said, Oh, this isn't about this person not wanting to do with the job, this person has really, really struggled during lockdown, but who asked him he was okay, who said, What can I do to help? Who said, are you managing your workload, because everybody went into their own little shell into their own landscape, and people forgot to check in with people. And also, messaging, you can send a message and then forget about it. I've encouraged people to speak because you can hear and if you can't see them, if you can't meet them for a walk, and the whole camera thing isn't everybody's cup of tea. And if you're not feeling great, the last thing you want to do is sit and look at yourself on a screen to be honest. But hearing somebody's voice, picking up the phone and trying to have a conversation, not doing it through messages. I think that's perhaps away maybe as human beings. And we've seen more of it in neighborhoods, you name neighbors, who would never speak to each other suddenly did each other's shopping. And so that's, that's one thought, really,
Stephen Robinson:I find this really interesting, because obviously, this will lead on to probably your life's purpose now. But I think the conversation we've had in the past about because when we first started talking, the funny thing is I fit that demographic, you know, that you talk about? You know, are you helping that demographic so much at the moment, which is a brilliant story. And just on my personal, you know, going through burnouts and stuff in the mid 40s. And, you know, I can relate to a lot of things that you're saying, and, and just, you know, you're constantly working at an optimum, and the communication is so heightened nowadays with never turning off. And I just find it so interesting that from a lady's point of view, in that you seen the blokes burn out so much, does that make sense? Because you're not just seeing it from we are all burning? Oh, you've seen it from this summit consistently happening here. You know, the summit consistent because of naturally your career from an employment law, perspective, as well as a personal perspective. And I think to lead on to where you thought there's something really sort of defined, does that make sense that you it's in males in a certain demographic, which I'll let you talk a bit a bit more about. I just find it from a professional and personal it's just, it's just really interesting, what you I know, you're gonna say, but I want you to talk about it of just what's led you to this.
Natasha Jones:I suppose. As I started to reflect my own life, my 2019 it became so blazingly obvious that the majority of the people I'd seen struggle had been men, middle men at midlife, and I looked around me and husbands are friends and males knew my personal life, some very close to me some from a distance. And the phrase burnout, I don't think was on my radar. And I realized I probably got near to burnout myself. Lots of people I worked with, definitely got to burnout. And I would say 95% of executives who exited from their jobs, which I'd been involved in the case, had definitely reached burnout. And I began to look into it more. And because I tried things myself, I started to have conversations and say, Well, why don't you try this? And why don't you try that? And many clients refer me then to friends and family and it always comes back. I'm not your normal lawyer. And the lovely feedback I've always had and the cards and the flowers and things was Natasha was these little chats you you had no idea at the time, how that saved me. Because I was struggling and I wasn't able to to admit to my family, I was struggling. But I couldn't admit to you. And my heart when I talk to these men because they were truly alone. They they were expected to be you know, the breadwinner to lead the company to be the top dog. There wasn't any room they have no basis to share it men previously have criticised man for standing in the pub and talking about anything of their emotions and just talking about the football or other generic subjects. But that's men's way of winding down and actually having gone through a very painful process myself. The female version which is bottles and bottles of proseco and looking backwards a lot and complaining and criticising, I'm not sure is healthier, and maybe the men's way if the pub will reopened eventually, and the men can stand there with their clients and pass the tablet a politely, maybe the odd man will volunteer. Things aren't good at home, on my wife's left me. But ultimately, who we can share our feelings with and how we go about it. And I don't think we set up very well in Great Britain, are we.
Stephen Robinson:No, I think I think the pub culture has got a lots of land for coming. You know, I have frequented many of a pub with my friends to have a conversation and it is banter. You know, blokes like bouncing I think the way in directly I look into this is obviously I'm gonna pop at each other in a fun way. Yeah. But you don't feel alone. Does that make sense by doing that? And I think that's it's counteracting that way. But I think you're right. I think things are changing so much that the amount of friends and people I know that you get to a point and things of happens like the wife has left them or something like that, or a member family is passed away. And you say why we never mentioned it the amount of times we've probably said that to each other. And say you think have a close when you come away from them conversation and camera close friend. Yeah. And you've never even bothered to dementia. And we're probably not the best people. The close friend structure mentioned that I think I think having someone like yourself, that did it for colleagues. I mean, if there's something that they can reach out to, I think is vital. And I think hopefully, in the future, they will.
Natasha Jones:I think grief is something that we don't talk about in Great Britain. And grief can be invoked by many forms of loss. So until summer 2019. It sounds absolutely utterly ridiculous. But I didn't log, that for a man who had say work for 20 years. When he's made redundant, loses his job, he loses his identity. And the knock on effects the grief and the grieving process. There are several stages of grief. And it's a tricky because although the various stages you can come in and out of the stages, anger is one bargaining and is one acceptance is one. But it can be a cycle and it can be has no timescale. But I look back and so many men, they would, what they were describing to me was grief, they were angry at first, and then they were just beside themselves and they want to do anything to stop it from happening. Then of course you have grief the death of of a human being. So I've watched friends, whether it's death of husbands and wives, way, way before their time. Whether it's death of children. But ultimately, we don't really have a process in this country. We don't have a safety net for when when, or children say children lose a parent. How many schools are equipped to help children through grief? British ways? Just Right. Okay. Yeah, have a funeral get on with it. So, but ultimately, the grieving process for a child if if a child has given grief counseling, and they're able to comfortably talk about their parents, then how they'll go through life compared to a child who, who was never thought they can talk about their loss parent. They carry it through to adulthood. So but we just in this country, we don't have there were a few charities out there. But they're overburdened. And, of course, we've just had 12 months have been an incredible amount of deaths. So a lot of people have gone through grief. But even even loss of a pet, you know, I've seen grown men really, really upset that they've lost, the family dog. But you know, the relationship between man and dog is really close to them. And so I just feel silly crying about my dog, but that there's this loss this gap, because I walk the dog every day, and now I don't because the dog died, you know? So loss is huge and grief and how it affects us. It should be acknowledged, and no one had to support somebody who's grieving. And it's just not something we've ever talked about in this country.
Stephen Robinson:And do you think that's changing? Do you think it's slowly changing as I mean, the stats obviously, a very low men still talk about it. There's a lot of charities trhat are dedicated to men to talk about, obviously, depression, suicide and things like that. So do you think that's changing?
Natasha Jones:I think I have come at it from a different angle and being a woman. I'm admitting I've tried to sit men down who who On a personal level, I've know very well and say, you know, lock receiver upset and try to make them talk to you can't make men talk. So learn that one the hard way. But I've come at it from a different angle. And so some of the physical steps I took Personally, I've put them all together have called them habits. And I've tried to give somebody almost a manual to try things themselves, which then might ultimately give them the strength and the impetus to ask for help somewhere else or to, to seek help or to want to try something. But what I do know is that when people are really struggling, they're in such a hole, they haven't got the energy or the enthusiasm to pick up the phone, to do anything. So things like adjusting their their routines, trying some tiny little tweaks to their lifestyle. What I'm saying is day in day out six 8 - 10 weeks down the line, I think there's more chance of the person being able to get to the stage, the idealistic stage of admitting, this bothers me, I should get it sorted. And whatever getting it sorted is or needs to be sorted. Well, that person has to decide for themselves and they have to want to help themselves. But if you're not sleeping, for drinking lots of alcohol, lots of caffeine during the day, eating rubbish. Because you can't bother prepare decent food and on tech a lot, you are probably going to give yourself much chance in digging deep and finding some some glimmer of hope to start to take steps to help yourself really. So I've tried to make it really easy. And sort of all of the habits that I've put together are free, you don't have to buy any kits. There's no excuse really not start it tomorrow. But it's tiny, little steps. It's just every journey starts with one step. So forget about travelling miles, what I'm saying is just take today, make one step today, and then see if tomorrow, how you feel tomorrow, as opposed to looking too far ahead than just thinking it's not. So point, I'm just not gonna bother.
Stephen Robinson:So going back to what was last year, winter, I just want to go back to last year because obviously we mentioned this about the urge the desire to write this book. So just just explain that where it came from this purpose to write this book.
Natasha Jones:Well, as I've started to chat to clients, about these little changes, I've called it a self care program. I wasn't really comfortable the word self care, because I think it says say self care to a man and he thinks that's a woman's thing. I don't do self care. So if I kept speaking to these middle aged men, he was struggling. And I started putting stuff together and calling the self care program and then we were locked down. And I'd find myself repeating the same advice and getting the same feedback. Oh, my goodness, attach that after this has made a difference after a week. Am I totally different man. I want to keep going with this. And repeatedly we it was just getting 100% success. And I thought yeah, I'm not just making this up. But, this works and as the pandemic hits. And as everybody was in a new place at the same time, and some people perhaps were very, very open with me. And then this story of a man and this man in in my story probably has a little bit of many, many men I've met and spoken to or acted for over 20 years. But it is your typical middle aged man. When I was a child used to say your dad or your uncle's Victor Meldrew. Everything was was just, you know, just moan after moan after moan. So if you're if you were born in the 70s, or you remember Victor Meldrew or the 60s, but probably the kids of the 80s and 90s won't have a clue. But I then had compassion for Victor Meldrew. Because if you've been in a dark hole for years and years and you're living in in a life where there is no hope, and you're not giving your body the best chance, and then it is a pretty miserable place to be. So that's why you do see a lot of miserable people around and people who were short tempered and you see road rage. Anger is repressed emotion. People get angry. It's just deep deep down here. There is something really bothering them. Yeah, but until you sort out what's really bothering you, your keep being angry little things inflame you. So the book sort of, if you said to me 12 months ago, I did have a book in me. And somebody commented to me I did. And I said, No, I'm a lawyer. No, no. And, and I started, as I suppose spoke to people and self care program grew. And then I started putting it together. And as I started to write, I had so much to say. And I was telling somebody who I'd known in business for a very long time, who was very creative. And he was really moved by it because he had a heart attack. And he had that jolt. He's like, nearly ended. Yeah. And he'd been through every he'd been, if you have a heart attack, you go into, like a rehab program. So we've gone through a physical rehab, and he, he understood, he had to take care of his body, he understood that what he put into his body would get out. And so as I was telling him, he was very moved by it. And I said, you are good at illustrating, we can do a book together. And so and he said, Well, I'm retired, why not? And then then it, it took off, took on a life of its own this man. And my illustrators called Ron and the first man, he sent, I fell in love with this man. And then there are 32 habits. And the man is an illustration of each of the habits, but Ron, what was going on in my mind with the words Ron put into pictures, and so I became really quite emotional about each of the pictures, My vision is that somebody doesn't have to read the book, they can just look at slightly with a comic, you can just look at the picture. And just if you sit and have a look at one of the pictures, that may be enough to move somebody or for them to stop and just be peaceful, as opposed to distract, distract, distract in the typical burnout way that we do. So I'm trying to find a way to get people to sit and to breathe, and to put the phone down. And hopefully the book will help them do that.
Stephen Robinson:The name of the book.
Natasha Jones:So there was the books called Mandemic. And that came from talking it through with somebody the idea with a book and how the story grown. And it came after I expressed that the male bashing needs to stop the pointing the finger to say it's men's fault, and men don't do this. And men don't do that. And I watch you know, a lot of women instead of taking responsibility for their own lives, they blame the man in their life for everything that goes wrong. But going back to my original point, unless we all fill our own cup up, there is no overflow. So before you blame somebody else, take responsibility for your own cup up. So Mandemic, I explained that the Mandemic began before the pandemic, because the bashing of the male the blaming, blaming the male species for everything has been going on for a very long time. So as an employment lawyer, I fight fiercely against discrimination in the workplace. But I don't believe the way for males and females to get the best out of each other is to point the finger at each other. Many clients will test I say we're two sides of the same coin. We have different strengths we have different weaknesses. women shouldn't try to or need to feel they have to behave like men. For a while I said you know I survive in a man's world I need to behave like a man and I suppose on my journey I've realized well i'm i'm built differently to man and things some things that men are good at. I'm not so good at so we've women and nurturing and we're good at asking, Are you okay? Can I get you another cup of tea? Can I make you a cake? You know, there, we've we've got into the the division and division of human beings will never come to any good. But when we pull together and we help each other, and we point the finger in, rather than figure out before you blame somebody else. Look at yourself first and only when you're absolutely sure you're doing everything right. Do you then blame somebody else? And if somebody is doing something that you're not happy with? Try compassion as opposed to blame. So, it helps the anxiety I can can attest to it personally.
Stephen Robinson:I mean, the book, the book and the story, I think, obviously, you know, today you just mentioned, I think, from your personal experience and your personal journey. And then obviously you experience it when your career to come and think about the male as as obviously struggling. He I think he's brilliant. And I think the illustrations are fantastic. I mean, you've sent me a copy of it. And you know, the read is simple. its simplicity. And you know, I'd set it to any man or woman out there, and, you know, to go and get it. I think it's available on Amazon.
Natasha Jones:yeah, it's on Amazon.
Stephen Robinson:Yeah. So go and get it. I mean, it's brilliant. And it's just dead simple to follow. And I think when people are going through struggles and problems, I think something is with illustrations, that isn't an in depth really sometimes the starting point that makes sense to start something these little steps that you mentioned, is our to start the journey into real it and action.
Natasha Jones:Yeah. And I was really strict with myself to keep the book simple. And somebody can open it in the middle and look at one picture. And they can read it the back page first or they can start at the beginning. It's not a book you have to read all the way through, it's not complex. I've tried to keep my word is down. People who know me personally, I probably do talk too much. And so I have been really, really disciplined. And discipline is something actually is it's a theme that comes up a lot in the book, too, to commit to doing that one thing you don't feel like doing but no, and if you do it, you'll be better for it. And is a good starting place. And the starting point I often start with is water. Yeah. So ultimately, I took me we spoke when I would be holed up in meetings and they'd be coffeepot after coffee pot, drinking two liters of water a day completely changed my my outlook the way I felt. So summer 2019. I committed to what big water bottle and every single day I drink two liters of water. So on the self care program, a lot of the males I was talking, I was talking to and drank tea or coffee. Some even said I don't like the taste of water after a burocca in it. So it just said Well, okay, water, the burocca is better than nothing. But about a week later, I'd say just think it can be brave enough to do a pint of water today basically. But but water if you think of water stagnant water is poisonous, it will kill you. And rivers, if they flow, they're clear and clean. But if a river becomes blocked, the water becomes stagnant. Where what 75% water our bodies. So if we're dehydrated, we get headaches, we've got low energy, it affects our sleep, it affects the way our body works. So two litres of water a day is is it takes discipline because it's not what you do. It's not what you're doing. Yeah, this time of year, all I want to do is drink tea, to be honest. But I do a deal with myself. I can't have my morning decaf coffee until I had a litre of water. So often it gets to 10 o'clock. I really want a coffee if you've not drink more water, but I always feel better when I've had the water. So it's one of the simple easy steps to talk about in the book. But I say it's a book right? I still joke because it was a male friend and it was his son who said what? So it's a comic really, because I think that if we all think of as a child, you know, comics were lovely. You had all these pictures. And you got you know, you got the story of the action man he got into his fight, he met the baddie in early sort of got knocked out and then he won. But you could very quickly get you get a theme without having to spend hours reading it. So there are some amazing self help books out there are really thick to read. And it's some people's cup of tea. This isn't a self help book. This is try and get people to think about if I don't feel great every day or I do feel anxious. So I'm a bit of Victor Meldrew. Well, am I doing enough to help myself? And if I do want to help myself, where would I start and their ideas of where the first step might be? But the the front page says a tale of a man who did not like to be told what to do. Because my 20 years of advising lots of males, who when they choose to come for advice, they're quite happy with it. But I know for my personal life is that the worst thing you probably do, especially if you get if your a chappie see you struggling to tell him what to do. Because it has the opposite effect.
Stephen Robinson:No, it's true. It's true. I mean, what do you see? The future mom to be Say nearby, obviously, with all this advice going out the people read the book, what do you what would you like to see a man to be? Is there a name a label?
Natasha Jones:Well, I dearly hope is that if stowic male of our fathers, so those of us that are middle aged how our fathers were brought up to be stoic instead of stiff upper lip. If the fathers are today are, are shifting, and they're in, they're in an enviable position, because the masculinity isn't defined at the moment, and men are expected to be everything. I'm good at everything. And they're a bit lost, I think. But if their sons coming through if my children if, in 30 years time, or 25 years time, if that percentage, if we've got the highest percentage of suicides in males aged 45 to 49. If through us, who are parents show the children, that it's important to take care of yourself to look after your body. And that self care isn't isn't just for women to do it. Self Care is an important part of life, then maybe those little boys won't grow up and end up in those dark holes. so that's what my hope is that the shift will be slow. And there is no immediate answer. But if as we learn, and and it's almost a trepidation when some real stories come out of 2020 of people, and some of the heartbreaking stories of people maybe overmedicating by accident, whether it's suicide, whether they've that they're now addicted to substance that they weren't addicted to before. Then if we come if we learn, and we see what the pandemic has taught us, and then we, as individuals and adults behave differently, slowly going forward, then we are the examples to our children. So I don't think there's an overnight answer. But I really hope that those little boys are going to school now I've got teenagers, well, then how they bring their children up, how they feel their own pups, and how they look after themselves, is their probably a bit kinder to themselves. And maybe our generation has been to us.
Stephen Robinson:Theres are 32 habits in the book? Yes. Yeah. I mean, the 32 habits, I mean, starts with ripples anyway throughout the family don't they. If the man, but you know, just generally, you know, that starts to ripple out to the children and, and friends and things like that in a positive way as well. So, what, what's next for you? Are you looking beyond the book or because obviously, he's published, and it was yesterday, wasn't it?
Natasha Jones:Yeah. It finally went on Amazon. And it was the most unbelievable experience, firstly, having written the book, and I mean, I'm sure I could, I could do an audio in my sleep. Because I've read it that many times. And I've had a fabulous publisher who's she's there, we've chatted about it so so much. But actually, first seeing your book look like a book. So when she typeset it as a book, I actually was really moved, I had an out of body experience. I couldn't believe that actually. My thoughts were here. And it was a book. And then when it was finally published, and friends and family realized it was published. I had some quite witty comments, that, yeah, at the moment, the book is all about living for today. being present now and being grateful for what you've got. That there are three of the habits in fact, so not just talk the talk but walking the walk, I'm careful to panic these days about the future. And I try to build as part of my daily life to to take moments to say, I'm grateful I'm healthy, I'm grateful my children are healthy, and that my mum and dad are healthy. Friends and family we have so much in the western world. And and anybody out there who's struggling. I know I can't save the world and an hour can't save every single man who's struggling. But all I know is just as human beings in helping people out and it's the greatest gift we can give each other really. So.
Stephen Robinson:I think that you've just stopped The answer to the question because the last question always finishes, what is your purpose? Okay, now moving forward, but I think you've sort of answered it, and what you've just said. And so, just to wrap up now, and because I've got so many more questions, but I think, you know, save them for a part two at another time, but if obviously there are any men out there, because I mean, I was demographics on Its Mental, you know, we saw I think 80 odd percent women, compared to about 17%. Men. Yeah. And you know, and we're open to everybody to help, we do want more men to, to read this book, go and buy it off Amazon, read it and take some steps and just change that change in some some of their routine. So what would you say to them people that are in that feeling of anxiety now, when are you looking back at yourself, waking up in the morning without that feeling in your tummy? What would you say to them,
Natasha Jones:I say, Be kind to yourself, and you'll get what you've always got if you do what you've always done. So if life doesn't feel brilliant, then take the risk, make a little change. If the if the, if the change isn't your cup of tea, then you don't do it again. But if you don't try, then you will you'll get before it's got. So it's a personal choice. And I'm respectful, that we each have a choice how we live our lives. And I think also, for anybody whose hearing this and they know somebody who's struggling, or they've got a spouse whose struggling or a family member. And then don't storm in there, don't tell them what to do. And please read, please buy the book, read it yourself first, then pass it on to the person. Because I think as human beings, we can lead by example, better than we can pointing the finger and telling somebody what they're doing wrong. Show them that by drinking water by going out for a walk or encourage them to go out for a walk those little, little steps, literally. But our instinct is to tell somebody don't do it like this, do it like that. But for people who are struggling, I think it's just the hands go over the years, and you just have blardy blardy blar. Yeah, okay. Right. It's alright, for you to say that. So I think that's my message is that if you know somebody, if you're struggling, please give it a go. If you know somebody who's struggling, please get it, read it yourself first, and then pass it pass it along. And I hope it's a sort of book that people pass to each other. Yeah. I'd love to get it into schools. And I would just love it to be something that people pick up and they flick
Stephen Robinson:It reminds me of a business book called Who through. Moved My Cheese? Oh, yes. And that's the I think that's the most popular business book in the world. And it's just, you know, illustrations very short. but it's to the point. Yes. And it makes a lot of sense. And I think Mandemic just does the same thing. Thank you. So thank you very for your for your time and really appreciate you coming on. I know you're working with is in the future and collaborating going forward. And, you know, I really appreciate that everything you're doing with It's Mental, and I wish you all the best in the future. So thank you very much. That was all for this episode of Real People with Real Purpose. Thank you till next time. See you soon.