The CWB Association Welding Podcast
The CWB Association Welding Podcast
Episode 185 with Stephanie Shrum (CAF-FCA) and Max Ceron
The CWB Association brings you a weekly podcast that connects to welding professionals around the world to share their passion and give you the right tips to stay on top of what’s happening in the welding industry.
Ever wondered how the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum (CAF-FCA) shapes the landscape of skilled trades in Canada? In this episode, we sit down with Stephanie Shrum, Program Manager at CAF-FCA, to uncover their remarkable impact on apprenticeships nationwide. We highlight CAF-FCA's pivotal role in connecting educators, unions, employers, and journeypersons, providing essential research, and sparking vital conversations about apprenticeship trends and gaps. Stephanie shares exciting initiatives, including grants for first-year apprentices, mentorship programs for women, and recruitment drives in the transportation sector. Discover the wealth of support and resources available for both employers and aspiring apprentices.
Check out CAF-FCA:
Website: https://caf-fca.org/
Professional Development Programs: https://leadership.caf-fca.org/
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All right, I can check. Check, I'm good. So I'm Max Duran. Max Duran, cwb Association Welding Podcast, pod pod podcast. Today we have a really cool guest welding podcast. The show is about to begin.
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Speaker 1:Hello and welcome to another edition of the CWB Association podcast. My name is Max Saron and, as always, we're looking for the greatest stories we can find in Canada and around the world. Today I have a wonderful partner to the CWB Association, somebody that we've worked with well for years now since I've been here and has been a stay in Canadian Apprenticeship World, which is a Canadian apprenticeship forum. We have Stephanie Shrum here, who's part of the employment. She's the employment counselor to director of employment services with PathLate. Okay Program manager, right Program manager.
Speaker 2:Is that your title? Program manager?
Speaker 1:Yeah, All right, stephanie. How are you doing?
Speaker 2:I'm great. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:Well, you've had me on your recording right when we were at the last CAF thing, so so you know you worked me in and I'm just, I'm just doing you the favor back.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Well, thank you so much, and I do appreciate you being on my videos as well.
Speaker 1:Uh, really appreciate that. So, before we get too far, a lot of people aren't going to know what CAF is and the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum, although technically, from my opinion as a past educator, every apprentice should know the infrastructure of what is apprenticeship and how things happen and how things get decided and done. So, stephanie, explain to the people, let's, right off the top, what is the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum and what is functioning.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum is a national not-for-profit organization. We're very much a membership-based organization and so our stakeholders include educators who are involved in the world of apprenticeship. We include associations, union groups, employers, journey people essentially any jurisdictional authorities Employers, journey people essentially any jurisdictional authorities, essentially any stakeholder who is engaged in the world of skilled trades or apprenticeship in general could be a member of our organization or are members of our organization. And what we do is provide a forum not only for stakeholders to gain information from us, from the reports that we do and from the research that we've done, but it also provides an opportunity for people to, you know, discuss ongoing trends and events in the world of apprenticeship and skilled trades. If there are any gaps that we need to think about, any initiatives that people would like to see happen generally, this is an opportunity for them to bring that discussion to the table. Other things we can do as well is bring some of that information forward to our funders, so Employment and Social Development Canada, the federal government of Canada, to say here are some of the things that we're seeing and hearing that they may wish to then incorporate into future programming or, you know, future plans for funding.
Speaker 2:The other thing that we do as well in addition to research and we've been a center of excellence for research for 25 years now is we also have programs now that are kind of direct delivery programs. So we're in the midst of wrapping up our Canadian Apprenticeship Service, which was a grant for employers to hire first-year apprentices. So part of what we do is help employers to see the benefit of apprenticeship. We help employers to understand the return on investment that they get, and then this program allowed us to actually provide funding for employers who were hiring first-year apprentices. So we're just wrapping that up now.
Speaker 2:I just finished. It was a two-year program. In addition to that, programs that we have available are a mentor development program for women in the skilled trades, a leadership program for women in the skilled trades. Right now we're also working on a recruiting and retention project for employers in transportation, where we just provide information around expanding your candidate pool. So lots of exciting things happening. In addition to that, we also have conferences. So we just finished our National Apprenticeship Conference and next year we're going to have our Supporting Equity in the Trades Conference. That we're very excited about. So that's just a kind of general summary of what we do. We might dig into some of those pieces a little bit further, but I will stop talking now because I feel like that's a that's a long enough summary.
Speaker 1:That was a lot. You guys do a lot, you know, and for, I guess, if, if you had to draw out the pipeline, so like, let's talk about an apprentice in Canada and I'm going to go with welding because I'm a welder. So I just signed up for my program at SAS Polytech here in Regina for a welding program and they tell me that there's these paths to apprenticeship.
Speaker 1:And through my course, I'll be able to get hours towards apprenticeship, now that apprenticeship all falls under what we consider the Red Seal program or the RSC, the Red Seal endorsement, which is governed through the CCDA. All right, am I wrong? I think I'm going on the right track here, because I want to be as clear as I can.
Speaker 2:So each province and territory has their own jurisdictional authority. So in Saskatchewan it would be the SATCC, which is Saskatchewan Apprenticeship and Training Trade sorry Commission, can it? No, I don't know what the other C is actually. Anyway, satcc is how I refer to them all the time. And then, yes, you're right, the Red Seal endorsement would fall under the CCDA.
Speaker 1:So there's kind of different levels of jurisdiction depending on if it's within your province or territory, or if you're talking about the federal Red Seal program, now CAF comes in sort of as an advisory group to the Red Seal programs or do they come in as just a supplementary service of Red Seal? Like, what is the connection between apprenticeship of what the apprenticeship that I get from like in my trade? To the apprenticeship that you work with in your work.
Speaker 2:So we are more of an information kind of dissemination center. So we will provide information regarding how one can enter apprenticeship, what that process looks like. We'll provide information to employers regarding how they can take on an apprentice, any funding that's available to them. But we're not actually part of the credentialing system or part of the like the advisory process for apprenticeship. We're just a little bit adjacent to it. We do certainly work with the jurisdictional authorities to understand what their processes are and on occasion we might get asked our opinion on if there are any sort of gaps in the process that might help apprentices or might help employers to have an easier time with the process. But we don't. We're not part of the governance of skilled trades.
Speaker 1:But that's a very important thing to know because the governance part is pretty cut and dry and sometimes very difficult to get answers Like. You're not calling up the CCDA, you're not, and the local, provincial ones are great. I work with SATCC all the time here you know they they're a great group of people. They can help lots, but they also rely on other people to help when it comes to finding funding support or to find any type of equity support. That's not necessarily their role, although they are getting more involved with that Is it.
Speaker 1:The piece that I think people need to really get away from this episode right off the top is that if you're an apprentice and you have questions or you have any type of unknowns, that CAF could be the person. That where maybe some of those answers come from.
Speaker 2:Yes, we could. So if you're an apprentice and you're wondering what sort of funding might be available out there, if you're wondering how does this process work, we will certainly answer the questions that we can. And if we can't answer them, we have such a network and a body of partners that we can direct you towards the folks that we'll really be able to dig in. So, just for an example, one of our partners that we worked with on actually a couple of different projects is ApprenticeSearchcom, and they have job developers you know who kind of work with employers and apprentices to match them, and so if we can't provide an answer, we might ask Apprentice Search, you know, to provide an answer to an apprentice. So certainly we would love for folks to get in contact with us If they're looking to understand more about apprenticeship, if they want to understand how it works. We can provide a lot of those answers and we have a lot of different websites too that hold a ton of information.
Speaker 1:And what about the employers? What if an employer is listening and saying okay, I need to figure out this apprenticeship game? Uh, you know, I got a well, I got a weld shop, but I've never apprenticed and my young employees always ask about hours and stuff you know aside from their local, um, you know jurisdictional authority in their province and is there something calf could help them with too, or no?
Speaker 2:We can help them to locate information. So if they're looking to understand how many hours are needed or what do the levels in this particular trade look like Is there a certificate of qualification? Is it compulsory? All those sorts of things we can help them to find those answers. We can also help them to find the regional and municipal funded employment centers that can help them with those answers as well and can help with incentives and can help with other training options too. So I would say, if you're an employer and you have a question, reach out to us, and if we don't have that answer, we'll find the people who do.
Speaker 1:So who would be? Like? I mean, I'm kind of bouncing around trying to narrow it in for everybody, but if you had to say what is your main focus for a target audience, who's your target audience that you're? You'd say like, look, you need to connect with us because we can help.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's interesting. Well, so each? That's a really interesting question, because each program sort of has its own target audience. So, for example, mine are generally women and gender diverse individuals in the trade, because that's what my current programs the mentor development program, the leadership program are about. But we also have a program where we're going to be working in Alberta to attract more youth into apprenticeship, especially youth who are newcomers or who are racialized. We just wrapped up a program for employers. Our hope is that there will be a second option where we can do it again and provide funding. So our target audience really is anyone who is interested in the skilled trades. We probably have something for you. So if you're, you know, so if you're.
Speaker 2:if you're a woman or a gender diverse person, you're looking to enhance your mentors, your mentorship skills or your leadership skills, we've got lots for you. If you're an employer who's hoping to understand more about recruiting and retaining women or folks from equity priority groups, we've got information for you. If you're looking for reports on labor market information on your return on investment, if you hire an apprentice, we've got that information for you.
Speaker 1:So we just have a ton going on right now, so it's difficult to answer the question about our target audience, and it sounds like it moves around, depending on what the needs are right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I mean we always have certain things for our members. So we always have the labor market information, we always have census reports, we always have return on investment if you're an employer. So that's pretty standard. But then in terms of some of the other projects that are funded by ESdc, they can kind of have moving towards a little bit well.
Speaker 1:I know like personally, one of the biggest things that I've been able to get out of calf since I learned about him as an educator at sas poly 12 years ago was that the information, like the reports that come out of calf and the connections and now that I work at CWB, so many of the questions that I get from the public. I actually refer back to CAF data because they were, you know, the reports that are released and so there's like the generic reports that are like you know this is the salary surveys and you know the increases of apprenticeships per province or decreases. I loved when they didn't do it this year but two years ago, when it had like their red light, green light, yellow light like we need these trades.
Speaker 1:These trades are okay, these trades we have too many by province. I thought that was super helpful and I think that that's something that should be dropped in front of a student walking into a college being like, hey, this is the report from Canada saying we, you know, yes, you really, really want to be a submarine mechanic. I get that, but there's no work.
Speaker 1:There's something to be aware of. You know. I think that's fantastic information. I think that that's incredibly valuable information, but I don't think it reaches far enough. From a personal point, of view.
Speaker 1:I feel like that should be in front of every educator, every school board. Like this is stuff that I find so useful, even when I'm doing presentations. I'll refer back to calf information, um, and it's just not so, I guess, nationally known. Is there a reason for that, or is there a limit to how far you're trying to get the message out? Or or is it kind of like you wait for people to come to you?
Speaker 2:I'm not sure if there's a a reason for that, um, I think part of it is. Some of our materials are only available to members, um, so folks who aren't members don't have access necessarily to all of our full reports. Um, because part of our value proposition for our members is to have, you know, access to some of this information, some of the?
Speaker 2:I mean we had a teacher's guide for a long time that talked a lot about apprenticeship and what was important there. So I wonder if part of it is just you know, sometimes as a really small team you've got a certain reach and then you kind of rely on your external partners to see if they can kind of progress it a little bit further.
Speaker 2:So that may be part of it, but certainly we want for as many people as possible to hear information about you know why? Why apprenticeship is such a great choice and why we highly recommend that students look at that as a viable career option but also, to your point, understand where the demand is and where they are most likely to gain employment that's meaningful and also long term.
Speaker 1:And it's very unique. You know I work around the world in different models, different work environments and different projects and when I explain what apprenticeship is to other countries, you know, even in the Americas, they're always blown away by, like the level of expertise that we require for someone to call themselves a journeyman.
Speaker 1:You know that we have for someone to call themselves a journey person you know that that we have these, these, these expectations of quality and standards within canada that we, we value. Now, this is very unique. It's not doesn't happen in a lot of countries. Most countries rely on their unions to bring in any type of a red seal or accreditation program and the rest is sort of just Wild West right For you in CAF, kind of supporting the Red Seal program but also supporting people, companies, members, all of it, kind of both sides of the fence. You know what's the biggest value apprenticeship brings to Canada as a nation? Like, why should we hold on to this thing that so many other countries have let go of?
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, that's a great question.
Speaker 2:So, in my opinion, and just what?
Speaker 2:What I think we've seen throughout the timeframe that Canada has embraced apprenticeship in the way that we do, is that having standardized training practices, having a unified approach to what the expectations are, not only in terms of safety but in terms of skill set, in terms of competencies, allows for not only the apprentice to have a level of confidence in executing their tasks, but also in feeling that they're safe to execute their tasks.
Speaker 2:And it also allows for employers to hire people knowing that they come with a particular skill tasks. And it also allows for employers to hire people knowing that they come with a particular skill set. They come with a particular set of experiences and competencies and they don't need to question that. They can feel very confident that this person is where they are expecting them or should be able to expect them to be when they're hiring them, depending on the level that that person has gotten to. And it also just ensures that I think it just it ensures that that there is a consistency when you're hiring, you know there's a consistency. If I'm a homeowner and I have someone coming in to fix my electrical, I can have a level of confidence that my house is going to be okay, you know and that they're not going to electrocute themselves or me or burn down the house later.
Speaker 2:Right, and I'm not saying that that's true of other countries. I'm certain that they have safety standards and expectations as well, but I think the apprenticeship process does allow for us to have a level of confidence in what to expect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, like you said, you create a baseline of expectation of skill, which I think is very important. On the global market. It's tough to compete with countries that don't have these same expectations of standards and skills, because obviously they can produce things for cheaper um but I I think that our expectation of quality is what what really establishes this us as a trades persons that are are wanted around the world.
Speaker 1:You know like I I often on the show I talk about some of my experiences working around the world, and none of that would have happened without my red seal, like like. None of those opportunities would have opened up if I didn't have the equivalency of skill required, which this little document says I do you know this little.
Speaker 1:This little stamp says I do have that and and here's a number. And if you want to look up, if you want to contact the agency and get my test scores I don't know what the number does, actually, I've never looked into that, but maybe they can find out that, yes, this person did pass. And then they are, you know, meant to be here Now for you guys. A lot of what you're trying to do is connect groups, agencies, people to try to eliminate barriers to apprenticeship and increase support the apprenticeship numbers within canada. Now, since we have this national system, that must also help your agency keep eyes on what's needed, what is it that needs to come? Because you, you do the data, you do the research, you can see down the pipeline like, oh man, we're going to be short on, blah, blah, blah now as you try to look at these barriers and think what can we do to bring them down.
Speaker 1:How do you do that? Do you? Do you go to the government and say, hey, we need way more indigenous people in northern ontario because that's where they live. We need workers? It's a low-hanging fruit a to b. Let's make this happen and give us money to do a program. Or does it come vice versa, from the government saying, hey, we found this Like. What's the interaction there?
Speaker 2:So there's a couple of different options and we do have avenues to communicate with the federal government. We're very appreciative of having that. And so one of the things that you can do is send sort of what's called an unsolicited RFP where you, through your research right and through your focus groups and interviews and all those things that we do indicate or identify this is an area of need, and you can put a proposal together and send it forward to say, hey, this is a project that we think is really important and we think is going to make a difference, and here's why and we think is going to make a difference. And here's why. And the other way that you can do it is to and what we do a lot of the time is to keep an eye on what RFPs are out right now, and then you shape your project to try and fit the need that you have seen as much as you can within the parameters of the funding or the grant that's available. So there's kind of a two pronged approach that you can take.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's obviously a little bit easier to go the route of they've already posted the funding right, and then you kind of shape your project to fit within those parameters but try to meet the need as much as you can. And then the unsolicited RFPs are certainly a little bit broader, I guess, in terms of what you're able to present. It's just those ones don't always have the same success rate, because they're not, they're not being asked for Right, but we have seen some good success there too, though.
Speaker 1:Now what like? There's a lifespan of projects, Right and this is something I've learned about government.
Speaker 1:Government loves pilots. If you say you have a pilot, oh here's all the money for the pilot and you say, okay, I want to do year two, they're like, who are you? So it's a tricky game to play. Working with feds For yourselves. You have kind of a rotating lineup of programs that are coming through. I got to be a part of the CAS working group that needed apprenticeship service. Got to work with apprenticeshipcom. We worked together at a number of conferences and programs to help get information out. We had them on the podcast, we pushed the service. We, you know, we're trying to be those partners to CAF that are doing the things that you guys want us to do. Now, in that lifespan of this project, which is coming to an end now in two years, how do you sum that up? How do you say this was a win, or this was not a win? Or please, government, let's go another two years. Or you know, if something's dead, is it dead and never to return, or can it still keep going? Or how does that work?
Speaker 2:It very much depends, I guess, on what the it really depends on, first of all, the success of the project, and I think we would say that well, no, I would not. I think I would say that the Canadian Apprenticeship Service had a great deal of success in incentivizing employers to hire more first-year apprentices. In incentivizing apprentices, you know, people to go into apprenticeship. We saw a dramatic rise in persons from equity priority groups entering into the apprenticeship, which is fantastic and that's really what we wanted to see and that was the intention, or part of the intention, of the program. So if you can show that it was a really successful project, there's a stronger likelihood that they might think of bringing it back. But again, it depends on what the priorities and outcomes and goals are of the government at that time and what they're looking to achieve.
Speaker 2:Our hope is that we'll see a second version of the Canadian Apprenticeship Service with just a couple of modifications that I think would be really helpful for folks. So hopefully we'll see that again. But it really just very much depends on what the priorities are, what kind of outcomes they're looking for, uh, what kind of uh direction they're hoping to go with the skilled trades and apprenticeship and what a focus might be. I think I would. I would assume that we're still going to see money moving towards youth entering apprenticeship. I think that's always going to be important.
Speaker 2:I think you know, women in equity priority, other equity priority groups. I think we're going to continue to see funding being put in that direction because we still have it. You know, if you remove the service trades like baking and ECE and hairstyles, it's still 5.8 percent of folks in apprenticeship are women, right.
Speaker 1:So it's still a fairly. It's got some room to grow um I think welding's at four percent 4.2 or something like that. It's bad yeah yeah, it depends.
Speaker 2:It depends on which trade you're looking at. I don't know which one I was looking at the other day, but it was 2.7 and I thought, okay, that's got, that's got some room um so you know. So I think that certain areas are going to continue to receive funding. Will it be in the same way? That it is right now. You know, maybe not. It might need to be different projects um in this lifespan of projects.
Speaker 1:because if I was an outsider and was saying I'm looking at the way the government's working with these programs and how they get, you know, filtered out into the population, I would say, well, when something's good, why doesn't it stick? You know, like you invented Oreos, I bought the Oreos, the.
Speaker 1:Oreos were delicious. I went back to the store and now there's Goryos. Well, what happened to the Oreos? Well, this is the next round. We tweaked it. And then I buy those and say, okay, they're different, but they're okay. Then the next year there's Sporios. You know it's like, okay, well, are we just going to stick with one? So do any of these programs that come across your table ever have an opportunity to become what I would call maybe a core program or something that it's just going to be forever because it was good?
Speaker 2:It's a really interesting question. I don't know that I've been in the federal sphere for long enough to know or to have seen that happen.
Speaker 1:Um, provincially, though, you think that'd be more efficient. You know, you think it'd be more efficient.
Speaker 2:I mean I I think it's it's easier to manage your staff than to manage your time and priorities when I worked within. So I used to work provincially within Employment Ontario and certain projects did become core projects. So I know provincially that was something that occurred. That was something that occurred. I don't know that. I have enough experience federally yet to be able to answer a question around whether or not um programs can become core programs or stay after yeah, they've started.
Speaker 1:Are there any now that may be legacied in before you came on like is there? Is there anything that calf has that's like? This is a calf program that's going to live forever, or is it all dependent on funding coming through programming from other partners?
Speaker 2:The things that we have that are continuous are generally through our membership funding. Okay, Like the leadership program that we're able to continue. I mean, we've done the return on investment surveys for a very long time, but they also depend on. They depend on funding. Coming from certain areas too, we do a lot of skills for success projects and they they tend to kind of cover the same thing, so they tend to kind of cover the return on investment, but you are applying for that money every time.
Speaker 1:Right Right are applying for that money every time, Right right. That's so interesting because you live in a state of flux where things are constantly shifting underneath your feet. That's got to be tricky.
Speaker 2:It's really interesting. It's dynamic in that you're always working on something new and interesting and exciting, but there is a level of consistently needing to, you know, apply for grants, apply for funding. That occurs when that's how your funding program works, for sure, and that's true of most not-for-profit organizations, right? I mean, I've been a not-for-profit for I don't know 18 years now, and so the organizations I worked with before. Before there was core funding that we got um from employment ontario, which is, which is not the case here. Actually, we don't get core funding um from the federal government. It's all projects, but there is a level of you need to add on projects because the core funding is almost not ever sufficient for your entirety of your funding will cover staff, and now you got to do something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now you got to find funding elsewhere, so that part's really interesting. But it does allow us to apply for projects that might suit a need you know or might fit a need that we've seen, that perhaps other funding doesn't fit you know, one of the projects we're working on right now is assisting students who have learning disabilities in accessing some of the supports that can help them with the Red Seal and help with a little bit more success with that final exam. So you know use them.
Speaker 1:But that's with CCRW, yeah.
Speaker 2:so yes, we do have one project with CCRW and then we're actually working on another one. Yeah, so we're you know. So what I think is really cool about having different grants and different projects while it can be stressful because you know you need to continue to secure funding, it also just allows for you to have these really interesting and unique experiences that serve a variety of different people, which I think is really cool all right, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:We're right at the mid-break of the of the interview. I told you before the show started that I wanted to learn about you and then talk about work, but we got right into work because it was really interesting. So we're going to take a quick break for our, for our supporters and advertisers here, and we'll be back on the cwb association podcast to talk to Stephanie about who Stephanie is, because I still want to learn a little bit about you. So don't go anywhere, we'll be right back.
Speaker 4:The CWB Association is new and improved, and focused on you. We offer a free membership with lots of benefits to anyone interested in joining an association that is passionate about welding. We are committed to educating, informing and connecting our workforce. Gain access to your free digital publication of the Weld Magazine, free online training conferences and lots of giveaways. Reach out to your local CWB Association chapter today to connect with other welding professionals and share welding as a trade in your community. Build your career, stay informed and support the Canadian welding industry. Join today and learn more at cwbassociationorg.
Speaker 1:And we are back here on the CWB Association podcast. My name is Max Duran and I'm here with Stephanie Shrum from the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum. All right, stephanie, at the end of the first half of the show we were talking about this wild ride that is is calf and this space that exists between governments, funders and then the red seal program, and you're in that space in between, making sure people connect to where they need to connect and being able to do what they can do. Now you said you were in the not-for-profit space for 18 years and you're now in this, in this space. How did you get in this space at all?
Speaker 1:because this is fairly specific type work you know what I mean and like I've been around in the game a long time now and I know that people don't necessarily just fall into these jobs. They usually kind of either voluntold or work their way into it some way. So how did you end up at CAF and what's your history?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely and hilariously. If you were to ask my parents, they couldn't even tell you what I do or describe it right, because you shouldn't be scared unless you're in it, right. But to most people they're like I know what a doctor does. So I actually, when I graduated university, I was a personal trainer for for a while and eventually determined that's actually not where I wanted to hang out and I didn't really know what I wanted to do. So I bought an employment counselor and she was so helpful in helping me to understand what my skills were, what I could possibly do, what was in within the you know realm of possibilities because of my educational background. And it just happened that that employment center had an opening for an employment counselor and they said, maybe that's something you could do and I said, yeah, ok, why not? Right, like I mean, I like talking to people, I like I like helping people. Sure, I could do that. And I had some coaching from personal training, so I had the ability to kind of assess.
Speaker 2:You know what the barriers were and what possible strategies to move forward were. So I did that for a little while and I moved around to a couple of different organizations being an employment counselor and a facilitator and I ran workshops and all those things. And and then the Ivy business. I knew someone who worked at the Ivy business school and she loved what she did. She was a career advisor there and said, steph, why don't you come here? And I said, yeah, okay. So I went to that, which is not as an employment counselor, by the way, how I would suggest someone runs their career Usually we tell you to set goals.
Speaker 2:But I just did this. Somebody asked me to go somewhere and work there and I said, yeah, ok. So I worked at the Ivy Business School and it was so helpful to understand so much about how business works, so much about how people make decisions, and it was incredibly helpful for me to learn just a lot about operations and finance and all those things operations and finance and all those things and and shortly after that I went into working with employers as more of a business liaison and a job developer, because I really kind of wanted to get out of the coaching space a little bit and I wanted to work more with employers. I wanted to work more on a community level and regionally, and so I worked at the Community Employment Choices in Strathroy and had this excellent opportunity to just be really invested in the community and learn a little bit more about, you know, economic development, which was really, really amazing. And at that time I actually joined the apprenticeship network in the London economic region and that's where I started to get a little bit more connected with apprenticeship and started understanding more about what an amazing career people can have with an apprenticeship and how undervalued it can be sometimes and some of the stigmas that can surround the skill trades and I just thought it was important to work a little bit more in that space.
Speaker 2:So after that again somebody asked me, you know, at an organization, at Pathways, if I wanted to come back and be a director. And I said, yeah, I'll come back and be a director. So then I started kind of directing, um, or you know, managing employment counselors and job developers, and still stayed very connected to apprenticeship and economic development and community development and all the things I cared about. Uh, so when an opportunity became available to work with the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum and take all the skills that I'd sort of learned through, you know, a variety of experiences, I thought this is the perfect culmination of, you know, managing projects, of being engaged with the apprenticeship community, you know, of using some of the skills that I developed in facilitation and public speaking and those, those kinds of things. So it for me was really felt like even though my career seemed a lot like me just kind of going yeah, I'll go there.
Speaker 1:Um, I think it all tracked yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like the path I think was perfect for me and what it needed to be, and it got me to a place that I think makes the most sense in terms of what I like to do and what it needed to be.
Speaker 1:And it got me to a place that I think makes the most sense in terms of what I like to do and what I care about and skills so I love that, I love the path there that you know, because I I have this really weird thing in my life where I don't apply for jobs like I just haven't in a long, long time I just I just kind of fall into them and, like you said, I don't have a goal, which is like I don't really necessarily tell people don't do that, but I just like float around and things happen.
Speaker 1:But for you you must have a great juxtaposition of what you knew as an early career counselor, trying to counsel people into careers, to knowing what you know now about the plethora, the wide array of careers actually available right there. There's a lot that you learned within that spectrum. Do you feel that as an early career coach you were pushing the trades enough? Were they on your spectrum? And the connection I'm trying to make is that in the industry we're always like why are the kids not learning about the trades? Why are the kids not being told about? This, why are?
Speaker 1:people not being directed to the trades? As an early career counselor, did you have anyone above you saying, hey, make sure people get in the trades.
Speaker 2:No, as an early career counselor I wouldn't say that we really even even talked about the trades very much, and even still I didn't learn too much about apprenticeship until I went to Community Employment Choices and joined the apprenticeship for sorry apprenticeship network and learned a lot more about it.
Speaker 2:And so there's a lot of areas where I think employment counselors really could benefit from understanding more about apprenticeship, and that's why, whenever I have an opportunity to talk to the Employment Sector Council here in London or talk to London Economic Development Corporation or any of the economic development folks, I generally try to talk to them about you know, what are you doing with apprenticeship and what are you doing with the skilled trades?
Speaker 2:And can we come in and provide some information to career counselors or employment counselors? Because I think what happens is people think that the apprenticeship process is intimidating. They think it's convoluted, they don't necessarily understand all of the steps, and so they get nervous about guiding or providing coaching to a client because they don't want to misguide them, and so instead they just kind of don't talk about it because they don't feel comfortable and confident with that, which is so unfortunate because we could have some really awesome people going into the trades, but there's just a lack of knowledge. So I try wherever I can, to connect with um employment counselors and job developers and just let them know a little bit more about how to get folks into the trades. Uh, cause you know, they could be a really great conduit.
Speaker 1:For sure, and I feel like that's like a misstep somewhere along the line, like almost in the in the onboarding of counselors, and I mean all levels of of counselors, whether they're high school, post-secondary, private career coaching, you know it's. I don't understand. I guess I don't understand that work. I don't understand that job well enough to know where they get their information from. Like what's the pool of information coming in to an employment counselor that they are then disseminating out to their client saying, okay, client X, you have this skill and this skill and this skill you'll fit into, possibly, this job. You know, how can we as an association at the CWB, caf, as a, you know, as a group, how can we make sure that that information is getting in front of the people that actively are helping people choose careers?
Speaker 2:That's a really good question and, I think, something that's super important. So I will say I will preface this with the the training now for employment counseling is different than when I started, because there are a lot more organizations now and you can get your CDP, so you're certified, or certified career practitioner, certified career. Anyway, you, you can, oh, my gosh.
Speaker 1:It's been so long since I've been an employment counselor, but you can you can become a career practitioner.
Speaker 2:There is now a program for that, and so there's a lot more information, I would say, available. And in the London economic region we did what was called a common assessment process, and so we actually and London's a little unique that way we are where we actually did training for employment counselors in the city, and so we all kind of got the same information. So that's why I say things like accessing, you know, the employment sector council in your area, because a lot of times that's where your job developers and your employment counselors kind of gain information and gather and get Lee-Moranke information and all those things. So that's a great opportunity. I would also say that the presence now of OYAP in the high schools has dramatically increased the amount of knowledge that the career teachers have and also that the guidance counselors have.
Speaker 2:You know, when I went to high school, they weren't really, you know, having us move towards the trades right. I mean, most of us were sort of guided towards university and college, because I think there was, just again a lack of knowledge, a little bit of a stigma, sadly, around the trades.
Speaker 1:Oh, for sure.
Speaker 2:I think now the presence of what we have has just been amazing in the schools. I think the access to information that the careers teachers and first of all, we didn't have careers teachers right when I was- in school.
Speaker 2:So that I think has been really helpful right when I was in school, so that I think has been really helpful. So, in answer to your question, I think what we can do is continue to try to be present in the high schools with the teachers as much as we can have employers, you know, do go to careers days and talk to the teachers and the students about what it is that they do. You know, and I'm sure you're doing a lot of that at the.
Speaker 2:CWB right is getting in front of folks when they're early and going to the first nights and going to those. So I've actually, through the apprenticeship network, gone to a couple of high schools where we talk to the parents and the students at the same time so we can help the parents to maybe unlearn some of the things they might know or know you know, about the trades. Um, that's.
Speaker 1:It takes all of us, it takes a village really yeah, you know what I mean and some it's very sector-based, you know, it's even regional, it's even municipal, like it depends on what industry is in your area that can affect what's going on, because people only know what they know. They don't know what they don't know. I went to a high school that was pretty ritzy. We didn't even have shop.
Speaker 1:You know, like our ia, our industrial arts was photography, right so like I mean, I got to learn how to set an f-stop on a camera, which is cool, I know how to take a nice picture, but, um, but there wasn't even access to it and my dad was a welder, so it's like I couldn't even have followed if I wanted to. Right, right, and that's just a reality. Like you don't know what's in your area. Like maybe your kid wants to take shop, but there's no shop in the school or regionally. There's been, I've seen across Canada, not so much right now, but in the past 20 years there was a lot of defunding of shops and trades programs in schools, which we're now rapidly backtracking on and trying to correct, because we realized the folly of our ways.
Speaker 1:Right, we removed all these shops, but now we are struggling finding anything and try to like I mean, you're looking at paint. I heard just yesterday $250 an hour for a plumber, because it's so tight to get a plumber anywhere in Canada, and I thought, well, this is a lesson. There's the lesson we can't complain about the price of the trades when we have put them in such a tough position now, right, and we're kind of yeah, we're it's.
Speaker 2:we've heard lots of times that we're kind of missing a generation, really right of times that we're going to be missing a generation really right in the trade, so that's tough for succession planning for sure.
Speaker 2:Um, so I think a lot of work is being done and I think we're making some really great strides in reintroducing sort of the presence of trades in, uh, in schools and in front of students, and I think a lot, a lot of great work has been done. It just takes a little while to catch up and it takes a little while to, you know, for people to kind of unlearn what they think they know about the trades or what they've heard about the trades or you know it.
Speaker 2:Just it takes a sec to undo statements as well, and I think to to indicate to people the growth that can occur within the trades, because I think too sometimes people don't necessarily know the directions that you can go with your career. Once you've become a trades person, once you're a journey person, you know, once you get into your trade and then you can do multiple trades and you can do all kinds of things um. So it just.
Speaker 1:It takes a minute, I think, to course correct yeah, I think there'll be some course correction and I think it happens organically too, because I think people will just gravitate towards the, the needs that exist in society. So I think that I think it'll happen. Um, getting the diversity, getting our getting the trades to be more diverse, I think is key to getting those numbers up. I mean, we basically pigeonholed the trades into a very specific, you know corner. That isn't helping. That doesn't help. You know, oh, you know like you need to be a six foot tall, 250 pound white male to be a tradesperson. No, no, that's not a thing like it's. Maybe, maybe it was a thing. I don't even think it was ever a thing like.
Speaker 1:honestly, I think that's a stigma that came out of somewhere that just it doesn't do a service to the trades and it's going to take a while for people to see themselves reflected. When they look at the trades, they see a woman.
Speaker 1:you know, being empowered, a native person being empowered, spanish, black, whatever, um, you know, people from the queer community being in positions of ownership. And then you start feeling that comfort level where it's like, oh, this is for everybody, it's not, it's not just a thing right, and that's a big part of what we're trying to do with our supporting equity in the trades as well.
Speaker 2:So that conference used to be called Supporting Women in the Trades and then we determined no, I think we want to. In addition to support women in the trades, we want to bring forward and empower anyone from an equity priority group, and so that's why our conference is now moving to supporting equity in the trades, which we're really excited about, and I think you're absolutely right the more that we I mean there's a reason, it's a saying if you can see it, you can be it right. So the more that we promote hiring equity priority folks, the more that we show equity priority folks the options that are available within apprenticeship, it can only do good right, it can only do a service for the trades and especially as we see that you know, retirement is happening at kind of rapid rates and we're not seeing necessarily backfilling with folks who have been the standard trades but for a long time.
Speaker 2:Right, we're seeing a need for it. You do need to have diversity, not only because it helps across the board in terms of diverse ideas and approaches, um and knowledge, but you also just need it for the numbers, right?
Speaker 1:yeah, so yeah there's spots that need to be filled.
Speaker 2:Period right yeah, yeah, all right?
Speaker 1:uh, this one's going to be a tricky question. All right, you're supporting apprenticeship. Canada has an apprenticeship program. Um, but there's a big push by companies, even within canada, to want to do things for cheaper, faster, quicker, and there's a whole sector of our industry, of all the trades, that operate in a non-apprenticeship status. You know, there's many welding shops that have nothing to do with apprenticeship.
Speaker 1:They have nothing to do with codes and standards. They're doing non-certified work and there is, there is that work out there? I mean, not everything needs to be certified. Like you know, tables are made, you know things are made that can be done in a non-apprenticeship, non non-certified environment. How do we, as a country, try to reinforce the need for standards and apprenticeship with the ongoing pressure from other places?
Speaker 2:industries, to you know, accelerate the growth of non-certified work I think it's a lot about providing information to not only employers to see what the return on their investment is when they hire apprentices, because there is a real business case for it. There's a real, solid business case for your return on investment when you engage with apprenticeship. But I think, too, for apprentices or for people who could be apprentices, showing this is the difference. If you get your red seal, for example, this is the difference in income. This is the education you can receive almost for free, right.
Speaker 2:I mean, or compared to college or university, it's significantly less expensive and you're earning while you're learning right. There's a reason.
Speaker 2:I say that right. So I think it's a lot of providing information. I think it's also working with the folks who maybe aren't as engaged with credentials to showcase. Here's the business case for having really high safety standards. Here's the business case for having training competencies that are fairly consistent amongst your trade. Here's what happens if you're paying lower and there's an employer who's willing to take that person on as an apprentice and pay more and also support their education, right. So I I think I believe it's truly a little bit of a lack of, maybe information or knowledge on the benefits that come with apprenticeship and um and the skilled trades and just having really high safety and training standards in general.
Speaker 2:So, even if they're not going to necessarily participate in apprenticeship, the training standards I still think are incredibly important um you know, for everyone, not only for safety, but also just for quality.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I've seen it around the world. You go to work in countries that don't have the same requirements and things are just happening, and sometimes you're looking at them and you're like where's the foreman who's in charge here? Like how is? This coming together and I don't think, think we, I think maybe we take for granted, as canadians, that how strong our infrastructure is in this country, how lucky we are to have so much resource um and that we have had apprenticeship, uh, for forever, like a long time.
Speaker 1:The cwb has been around for 103 years, like we have had standards of accreditation forever. So you know, we maybe take for granted, because of the longevity of our services, that things are just great, things are just great. But now we saw in this last blip, like we call it, the blip of the pandemic and we lost a whole generation here. Yeah, we did take it for granted, and now not having that reserve of educated trades persons is tough yeah, I think I know it's it does.
Speaker 2:It takes some time to I. Now I'm just going to say course correct, because we did sort of we lost a few uh, well, a couple of decades actually of people who could have gone into the train. Um, but uh, I, I know I can understand where it feels like it would be easier to to go the route of cheaper and to go the route of not having to be. You know four years of competencies and you know training standards and education and having your apprentice go to block training or whatever. So I can see how that would feel like the easier route. But I think I think when you have an infrastructure that really works and allows for people to feel safe, allows for people to feel confident in the knowledge that they have, allows for people to feel that they're being taken care of right, and that's a big part.
Speaker 2:If you give me training, I feel cared for, I feel like you thought about me, I feel like you're not thinking just of your organization, but you're also wanting for me to be successful and you're wanting for me to be a skilled person, and so I just I think that if if folks start to see that, yeah, it might be a little bit of an upfront cost, it might be a little bit more expensive to hire an apprentice than you know not an apprentice but here's the return you're going to get later.
Speaker 2:Here's what happens when you have staff who feel cared for and who feel like they're well-trained and feel like they're getting a really great experience, and who are getting a culture that makes them feel safe and included, they're going to stay longer and they're going to do better work. I mean, the research shows that the productivity of folks who receive appropriate training and who work in an environment that feels safe and welcoming is significantly higher than you know, the people who don't receive that, and so I think that would be my message for employers is, if you want to keep your people and you want them to be really well trained and you want them to do great work, their training is crucial for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right. Last couple of questions because I can. I can sense you need to move on to other stuff in your day. You've probably got a ton of work waiting for you, but I got you talked about it in the first half of the show, about some of the programs that CAF offers and I think these are wonderful programs that are. You know, I have yet to take one I'm going to. I'm signing up for the leadership one in the upcoming year because everyone tells me how awesome they are.
Speaker 1:So talk to us about some of the programming educational programming that CAF offers who can take it, who's open to it and how it works.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we have two different programs. We've got the leadership development program. That's not available nationally Right now. We do have it open to people who identify as women and gender diverse individuals, because the idea is that we would like to enhance the number of women and gender diverse folks and leadership roles and in the trades, and that one is actually funded right now by RBC. So we're really excited to have them sponsoring the program.
Speaker 2:Prior to that, it was funded solely by CAF and it is about a four and a half month program. Sometimes it's five months depending on when the long weekends fall, because I try not to have stuff due on long weekends. But during that time you go through five modules. There are some milestones, so people will do journal entries, they'll do discussion posts, they participate in virtual discussions. We also have, in addition to our subject matter experts who are facilitators, we have coaches as well, and the coaches are folks who identify as women or gender diverse. You know, journey people in the trade, and their role is really just to provide their perspective and their insights to the participants.
Speaker 2:And then we also have the Mentor Development Program, which is funded by ESDC right now we're hoping to be able to continue it, but it's funded by ESDC until 2027. And that program is very similar, so it is again available to women and gender diverse folks in the trades who are looking to become mentors and it's five and a half months. It's got the same kind of discussion, post journal entries, virtual discussions and our hope is that folks who come out of that program will then be mentors to other women and gender diverse folks. So either in an informal or a formal capacity we do have a cohort starting in September for each of the programs. Sadly those applications just closed but they'll open again in November for our February cohorts. So we will have those programs opening again in a very new future for folks starting in February or our winter semester.
Speaker 1:And how do people find it? How do people sign up? Where do they go?
Speaker 2:They sign up on our website. So if you go to the Canadian so CAF-SCAorg, and then you click on our professional development in the dropdown, you'll have access to both the information on the leadership program as well as the mentor development program, and you apply right through the website. So in November, when it opens again, folks can apply right through the website. In the meantime, though, if anybody is interested in getting on sort of the list for me to let you know when the next cohort opens, you're welcome to email me and I'll put you on the list, and then I email you and say hey, it's open, please apply.
Speaker 1:And I did see some changes recently on your website because in the past it was members only behind the wall information, and just recently there was an addition to uh, what I forget what it was called. It wasn't a member status, it was like it was another way to log in where you got some of the reports, some of the stuff, without having to be a paying member, which I thought was great, because I always was like this stuff is so great, how do I get more of it out there? But I understand that there is a premium. You know, connection between your and your funders. So for the general public, if they're interested about some of the information that comes out of CAF, some of the reports which I recommend any business owner or anyone, instructor, educational person to read, because they do give you a great window on the reality of our industry. How do they become involved in the network, how do they get the information? And, you know, is there a way to do it for free or how much does it cost Stuff like that?
Speaker 2:Some of the reports are free and you can get them through the website. We do ask for people just to give us their name and email address, but that's all we get. It's not a very long signup process, and then that also gives you the opportunity to sign up for our newsletter if you'd like, and the newsletter does give you information on when we have, like the public facing, webinars and all the other things that we provide publicly. As far as some of the reports that are members, only those are. Those are members only so you know so they.
Speaker 2:So I can't get them to you for free, but we do have three different levels of membership that people can have and we do try to make it as accessible as possible. So I would encourage folks to check out our member benefits, because not only do you have access to the information, but you also get access to discounts for conferences and things like that and then additional webinars that we do for members as well. So I would encourage you to check out our membership page and just see if there's a fit for you. But unfortunately I can't give out. I'm a separate free. I know it would be cool if we could. You can't just like oops.
Speaker 1:I left them on the park bench downtown, all right. Last question and this is part of where I have my most fun with calf is the conference you know um? My boss when I started coming on at CWB was like, what are the conferences you want to attend? And I said calf right away. And he's like, well, we already have some people that attend calf. I'm like, well, that's fine, I still want to go um, because I've always found that the calf conferences it's like one of the conferences I really get the most return of of the year and I attend a lot of conferences and big conference like I'm talking, I go to conferences with like 10 000 people, but for some reason calf has an environment and a group of people there that are also open to conversation and sharing that I come out of there almost always with some new partners, with some new projects, ideas. I am inspired by some of the presentations that come in the one last year at La Cité with Patricia Holster from I think she was from Sweden or Denmark, or I think Denmark, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to remember where Patricia is from Denmark. Anyway, I'm so sorry I don't remember. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But she gave a presentation on. You know how to approach businesses from a social responsibility standpoint. I have incorporated that into programming just as a concept and it's. I don't know how you guys pick the people. I know I've applied to speak and I've been turned down, so obviously higher ranking people than me get to be there. But it's a wonderful conference and now you've expanded into more. It was the sweat conference, now it's the they concept yeah, yeah, the set concept.
Speaker 1:um, how do you? How do you do this? Is it a? Is this a major part of the calf year? To make sure that that the conferences are up to par, because they've been wonderful oh well, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for your kind words. We really appreciate it. Our comms team does.
Speaker 2:They spend a lot of time on conferences. So a lot of what they do is, you know, figuring out the theme and the. You know, the speakers and the venue and all the things that go into the experience that we're trying to create for people. A lot of what we try to do, and what you may have noticed at our national conference, is talk a lot about what are some of the issues that apprentices and employers and associations and all the people involved might be facing and what can we be doing to help kind of move the bar a little bit and to help push our agenda for increasing equity in the trades and just people, I guess, in general and knowledge of the trades and all those things. And so we do spend a great deal of time on planning our conference and on ensuring that people are going to be able to take something away from it. So I'm so glad to hear that you do take a lot away from it and you don't have a big expo floor like you don't have a.
Speaker 1:You know there's, I think, eight to twelve, I'd say, present like uh, boots, the tabletops. But what I found is that almost all the tabletops reached out to me afterwards and we're like, hey, you know, I chatted with you for a bit, let's follow up. And you know I the the connections I've made with the carrie and the ccrw. We've already pulled them into some programming with us and it's like you know it's like.
Speaker 1:These are the things like. I mean, if you're in the not-for-profit sphere, if you're type of, if you're in the job market, not-for-profit spheres sphere specifically, these are things you definitely got to come to because even if you're not trade specific, there is so much information just in terms of best practices that I think are wonderful and and some of the stories we hear from some of the remote communities and the projects they're doing and stuff. These are not only inspiring but also give you templates for success. That why recreate the wheel? There's people out there doing amazing things. Just set up and learn like it's amazing right like ask questions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well, thank you. Thank you, we really appreciate it. And the other thing that we do try to ensure that um space is provided to as many kind of different types of groups as possible so that they can share practices and we can share information.
Speaker 2:And then we also really try to incorporate um sort of traditions and cultural aspects as well from the area of canada that we're in uh to learn just a little bit more about uh, where we are. So I don't know if you've seen I'm sure you were there to see the dancers that we had um, and the, the drummers as well, and the singers um, and we did that when we were at SWIT last time too, in Winnipeg. So that's something too that's really important for us as well is to share kind of the culture of the area that we're in and the groups that we're working with, because we think that's important.
Speaker 1:Absolutely All right. Well, stephanie, this has been fantastic. Last question now for you personally what's next for Stephanie? What's coming down? What's the dream? What are you working on? What's the secret project that you can let us know about here on the association? It's just you, me and 50,000 people listening. No one else will know. You know what's I'm not divulging anything.
Speaker 2:You know what my big area of focus right now is the mentor development program and the leadership program, and I'm just so excited with some of the interest that it's gained. We also have have them all yet. So, you know, a big area of focus for me in terms of connecting people is, you know, I want to get the speakers out there. We had some really awesome keynotes who are on our trades talent, who are at our last conference, and what I think would be amazing is to see some of the folks on there really get a lot of great opportunities to join conferences, to get out there, to get their voices heard, you know, to share the perspectives of. They're all women and gender diverse folks right now who are on Trains Talent. So lots of opportunity to kind of share those experiences. So that's that's what I'm really, really focusing on right now, and then, of course, helping employers with recruiting and retention is something I'm really focused on too.
Speaker 1:But I'd love to get those women out there yeah, any plans to go back to personal training?
Speaker 2:no.
Speaker 1:I don't think so.
Speaker 2:I think those days might, uh, might be over. I played baseball now and I got, I got wind and get into first. So I think uh.
Speaker 1:I played four games of softball and two games of all no four games of volleyball in the last three days. I don't think I can get up from this chair, honestly.
Speaker 2:No, me either. We're here. I played baseball last night. I think we're just sitting for the rest of the day. That's all that's going to happen for us. Coffee and Advil, that's what's going on today?
Speaker 1:Awesome, stephanie. Well, thank you so much. For people that are listening and have questions about apprenticeship or what's going on with the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum, please check out their website, wwwcaffca. Did I say that right?
Speaker 2:org CAF-FCAorg.
Speaker 1:Right, right, right, okay, and we will be posting that up with the links on the podcast here. Great, great company to work with. Great group, to work with Great people. People, and you know, keep sending me the emails. I'm a part of any committee you want me to be. You know. I always say yes, I love working with your team and everything that you guys do, so thank you awesome.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Thank you for having me and thank you for being such an exceptional partner. We love working with you as well, so I'm sure you'll see emails from us in the future all right, perfect.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much and for all the people that have been following along the podcast, apprenticeship comes up a lot and you know on this podcast we have huge listenership in the US and the US, you know, often ask questions our partners about how apprenticeship works, and you know, feel free to reach out to us and we would love to have those conversations. And and even, you know we have examples and we even have some presentations that we have in our library about how companies can incorporate some sort of apprenticeship-like systems within their own companies if they aren't under a federal apprenticeship program, because the apprenticeship system does not necessarily have to be mandated from above. It is something that you can do in terms of mentorship and leadership within your companies to help everyone be safer, better and more secure. So be a part of us, join for your free membership. We have that information for you and we will see you at the next podcast. Take care of yourself.
Speaker 3:We hope you enjoy the show you've been listening to the cwb association welding podcast with max. If you enjoyed what you heard today, rate our podcast and visit us at cwbassociationorg to learn more. Feel free to contact us if you have any questions or suggestions on what you'd like to learn about in the future. Produced by the c the CWB Group and presented by Max Hump, this podcast serves to educate and connect the welding community. Please subscribe and thank you for listening.