How to ask your investors for advice & support with Michael Tobin OBE

Although securing cash is the key objective when raising investment, money isn’t the only thing to consider. Many investors can offer vital support and advice too. 

Michael Tobin OBE is a serial founder, author and non-executive chairman of several international businesses and CEO of technology company Telecity from 2002 to 2015, Michael grew the company from a market cap of £6 million into a FTSE 250 company worth £2 billion. In 2014, Michael was awarded an OBE for services to the UK digital economy. 

Given many founders require more than just an injection of capital when scaling their businesses, Michael shares his advice on how to ask investors for extra support and what help you can reasonably expect from your investors….plus the importance of the cost of umbrellas. 

If you'd like to contact Michael you can reach him via LinkedIn

• Remember that all investors will be looking for different things: return, timeline etc.
• Know your worth; speak from a strong position not a needy one
• Be ahead of the need point; show that you can manage and may not need a great deal now, and your position will be stronger later
• Don’t over-borrow - wait till your valuation increases
• Go in with confidence and foresight
• When looking for investors, consider whether or not they are well-connected; look ahead to the next round and how they could help in the future
• Look for investors who may have contacts to help you expand your business; it’s not all about the cash
• Choose investors with whom you can engage; make sure you’re on the same wavelength
• Be candid with them as to your reasons for choosing them and discuss the many different ways in which they can help you
• Aim to have an independent chairman or mentor who could arbitrate between you and your investors if necessary
• Keep networking; Michael calls it ‘opening doors’.  This builds your reputation and may earn you support in many ways further down the line
• When you are starting out don’t be afraid to fail; you will have less to lose
• Always ask questions; and be prepared to listen carefully and perhaps change your point of view
• Enjoy the challenge!

FF&M enables you to own your own PR. Recorded, edited & published by Juliet Fallowfield, 2023 MD & Founder of PR & Communications consultancy for startups Fallow, Field & Mason.  Email us at hello@fallowfieldmason.com or DM us on instagram @fallowfieldmason. 

Let us know how your start up journey is going or if you have any questions you would like us to discuss in future episodes. 

FF&M recommends: 

• LastPass the password-keeping site that syncs between devices.
• Google Workspace is brilliant for small businesses
• Buzzsprout podcast 'how to' & hosting directory
• Canva has proved invaluable for creating all the social media assets and audio bites.
• For contracts check out Law Depot.

MUSIC CREDIT Funk Game Loop by Kevin MacLeod.  Link &

Transcript

[00:00:00] Juliet: Hi, Michael. It's wonderful to have you on How to Start Up Today.

[00:00:02] Juliet: It would be great if you could give us a little bit of an introduction as to who you are and a bit about some of the businesses you've started.

[00:00:09] Michael: thank you very much for having me. I'm delighted to be here. Yes, I started with an apprenticeship a very, very long time ago at 16, left school at 16. Always wanted to sort of make money, earn money. Wasn't as academic as some of my peers either. So that worked well for me. I did an apprenticeship in electronic engineering. , got many lucky breaks along the way. Got my first MD role at about 21, made lots and lots of mistakes growing businesses and, managing teams. Spent a few decades around Europe starting businesses up in France, in Copenhagen, in Frankfurt. Generally for bigger and bigger businesses.

[00:00:46] Michael: Came back to the UK in 2002. Had a business, a basket case of a business called Redbus, which was a data center company , it was listed on the main exchange worth about 6 million, but going bankrupt. Managed to get some [00:01:00] believers in and got a bit of recovery money, took it private relisted it in 07 for.

[00:01:06] Michael: I think just over 200 million and then we sold it in 2015 for 3. 6 billion and subsequent to that I work with various sort of private equity and, VC companies to identify opportunities, run them and then obviously exit and been doing that since 2014, 15. Chairman of about a dozen businesses around the world at the moment. Got some restaurants, which is more of a hobby than anything else. Written a few books,

[00:01:36] Juliet: Incredible. I'd say a very proven track record of success.

[00:01:41] Michael: I've been very fortunate.

[00:01:43] Juliet: I don't know, a lot of people say to me, Oh, you're so lucky you're self employed. I'm like, there is no luck involved. It is hard work. There's no chance to this. 

[00:01:51] Michael: Well, as you know,, no one asks you to get up in the morning, which is great, but no one asks you to get up in the morning, which is bad, right? 

[00:01:57] Michael: It's all on you. You can decide everything, [00:02:00] but you must decide.

[00:02:01] Juliet: Yes.. 

[00:02:02] Juliet: Given this season is all around investment, I would love to speak to you a little bit more in detail as to people talk about finding investors. It's really hard and securing investments really hard. But then once you've done that, what else investors could bring to the table to support you and how to go about it?

[00:02:18] Juliet: Like identifying investors is one thing. Have they got the budget? Are they interested in your business, but are they the right fit and what other value. In terms of soft skills or connections, could they offer you, I'd love your perspective on this.

[00:02:31] Michael: yeah, so there is a lot of money around, right? And I know when we say there's a lot of money around, everyone goes, Yeah, why can't I find any? But it's because everyone has. Very specific objectives about their investment, right? So one can be the returns profile. One can be their involvement or the opposite of involvement in any particular thing. One thing can be the duration of the investment. So, they may be looking to, cycle their money in a three to five year [00:03:00] period. And you're, looking for a sort of a seven year. Right. Especially from early stage. And, then, there's a lot of people now using the current market where debt was usually available very, very cheaply up until recently.

[00:03:14] Michael: We always had the option of just leveraging up on the debt, but now that's not really a good option because of the interest rates and everything else. So. Early stage investors are saying, okay, I'll give you money, but I want preference terms in there, right? So I want one and a half times cover on my assets.

[00:03:33] Michael: So if it's not actually going to hit the numbers that everyone says, I get my money out before you do, and I get one and a half times my money before anyone else touches it. So,, there's lots of different rules that people are putting in and around investment that. I'm making it much trickier, especially for early stage businesses , to not get almost ripped off in a way , from investors. And I know everyone's out to make money. And so, , at the moment people with money feel they have [00:04:00] an upper hand in negotiations. And I think that's one important thing is really make sure people know their worth. , if an investor is remotely interested in talking to you, it's because you have something that he doesn't have. Okay. And, and so, that's a good starting point mentally to think I don't need to , sell my soul to the devil here.

[00:04:19] Michael: When people need money and , you're burning through caches in an early stage environment, there's usually a sort of a point where. If you're not getting the interest from investors, you start to panic a little bit, right? And that's only natural, but you've got to keep a level head and make sure that when you're, when you're getting these investors in that, you and them can have an aligned view of life in all the different things.

[00:04:44] Michael: I've mentioned timelines, , time, horizons, yield returns, all those sorts of things. But yeah, you're looking for things that over and above the cash as well, right? You're looking for, , have they done any business in this sector before, in which case they probably will have contacts. Can they [00:05:00] introduce you to the right people that can accelerate your business? , , are they well connected reputation wise that might help the exit? So even if they don't have any, any knowledge of your sector and maybe can't introduce you on that side, they will have perhaps strong outcome based relationships, right? So they'll take, they'll move you to the next phase of life where he may be a sort of an A round type specialist, and there may be a B or C round. Much larger people that have done lots of deals with him in different sectors, but trust him. So that can also be incredibly valuable, is understanding what journeys he's gone through and then, , how does he build his track record up from there?

[00:05:42] Juliet: It's not just thinking about the immediate need a lot of people in the season have talked about, don't have your back up against the wall.

[00:05:48] Juliet: Make sure you're planning for this in the future. It takes time. So you're not then taking the wrong investment and you're not letting investors run you to that deadline. But also that next step and the step after that of really, this is a long term [00:06:00] relationship. What else is in both of your futures together, 

[00:06:03] Michael: yeah. I mean, a wise old guy told me once he said, , isn't it interesting that umbrellas cost a lot more when it's raining than when it's sunny, right? And when you think about it, , you go to a bank when you need money and they don't want to lend to you. But if you go to a bank and start talking to them when things are good and you just say, no, no, things are good. And after a while of doing that, they come to you and say, can I help you? Can I lend you some money? Right. And so this, this concept of being significantly ahead of the need point is very important because one, , you're proving to people that you, can manage your ship, right? And also you can say, look, I'm going to need money in two years time.

[00:06:44] Michael: I don't need money now. And I don't want your money now because it would be over dilutive to take investment now on the valuation but I can see a path to twice the value. And then I will need some more money. So I'd rather give you the [00:07:00] opportunity to, invest then, and you'll get half as many shares for the same value, right? Which is beneficial to me as a founder. So make sure that you're not looking to buy an umbrella when it's raining. Okay. So, get that early in the, process. Make sure that you're talking to people and they're seeing that your business is good. Inform as many people as you can, make sure that they're all involved in the story, but then don't ask them for anything, right?

[00:07:26] Michael: And then carry on on your

[00:07:27] Juliet: I love this because , in my day job, when I'm not doing podcasts, I enable businesses to own their PR and communications in house because they are their own best storyteller. They just might not have the skills to get it out to press. And we are always talking about planning and foresight. You needed to be planning for this six months ahead of launch.

[00:07:44] Juliet: And typically brands are like, Oh, we're launching tomorrow. What press can we get? No, this is. A nightmare that we, not to catastrophize, but if you carry the umbrella, it doesn't rain is my favorite expression. And actually it's pre purchasing the umbrella,.

[00:07:58] Juliet: And I love that you talked [00:08:00] about that, they get more expensive when it rains and it's raining in London today. And everyone's just winter's here, but it's that foresight and that planning. And I think when you're pitching, whether it to be a journalist, to an investor, to a future employee, to a future board member, B2B, B2C, B2E, it's so interesting.

[00:08:14] Juliet: If you go into it with confidence and foresight and planning, people go, wow, you've really thought this through. I admire that. I respect that. I have confidence in that. And when someone's investing, of course, confidence is probably the number one thing they look for in a founder.

[00:08:29] Michael: Yeah, I think that's probably fair. And it's quite interesting, the the other thing that, you're mentioning there about the rain in London. I bumped into, we live next door to the vicar the local church, bumped into him this morning and he said, how the weather's changed in a day in London. And my attitude was, well, it's not bad for October. He said, yes, but it was October yesterday as well. Right. And I thought it was quite an interesting concept because , on one hand, we should be thinking October is likely to be rainy and therefore make sure that you're [00:09:00] prepared for that rain and then don't get suckered into the fact that if it doesn't rain, it's not October, right?

[00:09:07] Michael: It's still October, right? And it's still probably going to rain.

[00:09:11] Michael: So in January, make sure that you're prepping for October with rain.

[00:09:16] Juliet: Exactly.

[00:09:17] Juliet: This is probably not related, but someone else said rain is very welcomed in a drought. Rain is not always bad. And actually depending on your circumstances and what you've needed and anyway, we digress.

[00:09:28] Michael: Yeah. Probably thrash the rain analogies to death.

[00:09:33] Juliet: But when people are looking for investors and they're looking at how much they might need to raise and they're looking for those extra parts to an investor, where should they seek them out? If they've identified someone that's we need someone who's going to help us with our exit. How on earth would they try and disseminate that kind of avatar?

[00:09:51] Michael: Okay. So, first of all, I think thinking about the quantum of what's needed, right? So that, that will also direct you to certain profiles of [00:10:00] investors. So again, there's a fine balance between taking a lot of money early, which everyone likes to do. Which for me, , ends up being unnecessarily dilutive for founders. Or taking just enough money to get you to a point where your valuation increases and then taking more. So once you've identified the quantum that will start to direct you, , family funds venture capitalists, all these different types of people. What you then should be looking for is, , who's going to contribute more than just cashier. Who's got the access points to either contacts that I will need to grow my business faster or contacts that will allow us to take the next phase of the journey at some point in the future. And then there's something else, right? There's the, chemistry between you and them. So in my chairman roles , with private equity,, a lot of my work is. Trying to be, if you remember the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the Babelfish [00:11:00] between the managements speak and the investor speak, and very often they're saying very similar things, but using different words, right? 'cause ultimately everyone wants the same outcome.

[00:11:11] Michael: Everyone wants to make a lot of money, right? So they're saying it in different ways. One is looking at, , yield. One is looking at acquisition cost, and , but, and actually by aligning all those words into the same, Sentencing, if you like, , then you bring people onto the same page. You've got to make sure that you, have the capability to engage , with an investor. In a, in a chemistry way, right? So it's saying that, yes, we, we understand this could go wrong. We understand , that we might not hit the targets because we're so early , you can say you're going to grow by a hundred percent, but that's because you're really small and you're one plus one is two and that's a hundred percent growth, but it's still one.

[00:11:52] Michael: Right. so there's a lot of things in there that if you can just get that chemistry, right, then everyone aligns much quicker. [00:12:00] Now I think the other thing about it is try to find yourself an independent, either ideally a chairman or an independent non exec who can do that for you because in times of argument, let's put it that way between, or disagreement between you and the investor, you don't want to ruin that relationship. Right? You, want to have someone that can be your bad cop,

[00:12:26] Juliet: Yeah.

[00:12:26] Michael: right? You want to have someone that you can moan at and say, this is my position and it's really contrary to them. And I don't want that and allow them to go and have that battle and debate. And by the way, that same person will be having exactly the same conversation on the other side. And their role then is to come back to you in a conciliatory environment. But what it allows you to do is not have the kind of standoff and unhappiness with your prime relationship.

[00:12:55] Juliet: Yeah.

[00:12:56] Michael: So having that third party sort of independent, [00:13:00] and , give them some sort of, , equity in there or something.

[00:13:04] Michael: But, but they really should be there as, someone that has no material vested interest other than to see both succeed. Right? And you can pay them a 30 grand salary or whatever, or you can give them a small, , equity piece, but nothing big because that will then start to put their own opinions in into the mix.

[00:13:26] Michael: You don't want that. You want them to find, help you find ways to, to bring your investor and you in the same page without you having to scream and shout at each other.

[00:13:38] Juliet: Cause I think that's me looking into friends with businesses that have gone after investment. And fortunately, unfortunately I haven't gone there. And you, when you become self employed, you have a lot of autonomy, you are your own boss, but, and everyone's Oh, you have endless annual leave.

[00:13:51] Juliet: I'm like, we have none. But there's also the flip side that if you go after investment and you have these investors that you need to. In a way, or at [00:14:00] least communicate well with, and I really appreciate what you were saying, because for me, obviously I'm passionate about communications and typically we communicate with press on behalf of clients or we enable clients to speak to press themselves, but that knowing how to broker that conversation and who to say what to and when having that.

[00:14:20] Juliet: Other party in your business that can have those difficult conversations for you. It sets you up for success because you'll be going presumably to investors with the good news and professionally in an organized manner. And then the other person that is there to support you can go and manage that conversation in a different way.

[00:14:36] Juliet: And someone else said this to me, when you're self employed, no matter who you are, if you're a hat maker or a skincare expert or in a service based business, 80 percent of your job is sales, whether you like it 

[00:14:44] Michael: It is 

[00:14:45] Juliet: And it's networking. And I often say it's dot connecting because networking to me has a 1980s connotation to it.

[00:14:51] Juliet: But it is spending time and effort out there talking to people.

[00:14:56] Michael: Well, I go to endless sort of cocktail [00:15:00] events and all these sorts of things. And, and sometimes my wife says like, , you're tired and I go, Oh God, I've got to do this thing. And she goes like, just don't go. And I said, well, the thing is that I've been doing that now for decades. And there are people that phone me up completely out of the blue that I've met six, seven years before. You probably won't remember, we met in such and such, but this opportunity came up and, and I remembered you were something to do with that. 

[00:15:29] Juliet: Never regret a conversation ever.

[00:15:31] Michael: it's, it's again, it's the hard yards, right? And it's your choice, whether you, whether you do all that networking and, and almost always nothing comes from that in the, at the event or in the evening, but you just never know when it does come. Right. And so you spend, you spend your life just opening doors around you. You don't necessarily have to go through them, but just keep opening the doors,

[00:15:56] Juliet: It's very difficult, especially in. Small, businesses [00:16:00] finding the time to do anything properly and fully. But I've very much learned that is something that needs to be prioritized. And now I'm fortunate to have a team, again, not fortunate. It's not strategic. It's definitely planned for, but they.

[00:16:14] Juliet: Are doing their jobs and I'm doing mine and I'm in the process of trying to write my own job description. And part of it is going to events is talking to more people. And given I'm in communications, I obviously love talking. I do a podcast. I love talking to people, but it's more that I get energized in those conversations and either I'm able to help them.

[00:16:29] Juliet: And that comes very naturally. And I feel like a lot of people who've done well in business have this instinctive. urge to help other people with no wants to say anything back, but inevitably people remember you and are grateful for that and you're top of mind and you build a reputation and then they will go, Oh, by the way, you need to meet this person.

[00:16:51] Juliet: And that skill sharing, that mutual mentoring, I absolutely love.

[00:16:55] Michael: , you, you just never know when, when the wheel comes around again. And [00:17:00] also, I think I've been, as I said earlier on, so lucky in life to be surrounded by great people, to be in the right place at the right time. And. , allowing other people to slightly short circuit some of those , pain paths, I think is great.

[00:17:17] Michael: Right. And, and everyone remembers it. Everyone appreciates it. If they get an opportunity to, somehow repay it, I'm sure they would. If they don't, that's okay. It's another door opened. You don't have to go through it. 

[00:17:29] Juliet: Karma. So let's say you've identified the right investor, their game, they want to invest. And that there is. Other networks, they could open or doors that could open for you in the future. you openly say that in the early conversations with them of saying, I'm really attracted to you as an investor, because are you 

[00:17:50] Juliet: candid about it? 

[00:17:52] Michael: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, , you can call them out on it as well. Right. And you can say, , let's assume everything else is fine, the, the, , the [00:18:00] valuation's fine, the terms are okay and everything else, I can't afford any part of my, kind of ecosystem not to be pulling in the right direction, right. Because the ecosystem is so tight and small. So., how do you think you'd be able to benefit this relationship? Whether that be through contacts, opening doors, ideas, and some of them slightly larger ones, some of the kind of more structured VCs, they, they may have people in their team that can come and run analysis for you where you don't have. A guy on the payroll that's able to do a bit of number crunching that you need to give you an insight into part of your business and say, look, can you bring him in and sit with me for a couple of days and just throw me out the answers to these questions? Right. They can deliver that.

[00:18:48] Michael: And , there are many things that they can do that there'll be using these tools through due diligence and everything else on your business. But after that, unless you ask for it, they won't think to do it. Right. And say, well, that [00:19:00] guy that spent all that time looking at my business so that you could invest, bring him in again. . And get him to look at this for me.

[00:19:07] Juliet: And it's with everyone's best interests 

[00:19:08] Juliet: as 

[00:19:08] Michael: is, it 

[00:19:09] Juliet: , every single guest in the podcast, I think we're around 80 episodes had said, get a good accountant, get a good mentor, but also be completely comfortable with putting your hand up and asking for help because if people don't know what you need, then I'm able to help you.

[00:19:23] Juliet: And I came from very. Beautiful luxury brands that are very private, Chanel being one of them. They did not need any help. You do not partner with anybody. You have budget just to do it all on your own. And then going to a hotel brand that had no budget, it would get very nimble of going, hang on a minute.

[00:19:38] Juliet: We could be quite tactical about this and work with an airline and tour operator. And you become very strategic in how to get stuff done. And then self employment, you're like, I know how to PR something, I have no idea how to run a company. So this podcast is me putting my hand up and asking for help.

[00:19:53] Juliet: And it has been the best thing I've ever done. I think it's given me so much reward, but a lot of [00:20:00] people feel quite proud about it or they don't want to admit they don't know something, but, what would your advice be for a new founder around that?

[00:20:07] Michael: Oh God, look, I mean, , so first of all, generally, and it's not a hundred percent, but generally, , early stage businesses are with younger people. Yeah. That's the time that you can try and, you can not be afraid to fail because you probably got less people that are dependent on you. You've got less obligations and commitments. So, , the downside of, of getting it wrong. So I tell the kids, , like there's no such thing as failure. There's either success or learning.. And so the quicker you can learn, the more likely it is that you succeed. So. And to do. And so the quicker you can get through that and asking questions is, because you're at that stage of life, you haven't experienced it all. So talk to as many people as you can and try and short circuit that learning curve,

[00:20:59] Juliet: [00:21:00] Yeah. , 

[00:21:00] Michael: and, and, and ultimately, , there's not a million things that are different in business. Cashflow is really important, , selling is really important, , selling yourself. I like to talk to people about Kind of building a VPN of trust between you and the person in front of you. Right. And. Once there's this kind of channel of trust, you can throw anything down there.

[00:21:23] Michael: The moment it is not, of course you break the VPN of trust and then it's very hard to get it back.

[00:21:29] Michael: But, once there is that trust and that's, trust is only between individuals. It's not between companies.

[00:21:34] Michael: It's not a product supplier relationship. It's individuals. Once an individual says, don't let me down, and you move heaven and earth not to let 'em down, that VPN of trust, is kind of set up.

[00:21:47] Juliet: Yeah.

[00:21:48] Michael: And, and I think that, that, , those are the sorts of things that if you keep that in front of mind and some, and again, none of this is rocket science, but it needs, it's worth reminding or having someone remind you on a [00:22:00] regular basis. Because we get caught up in the daily life and everything else. We forget the stupid things, the obvious things.

[00:22:07] Michael: But having someone around slightly grayer that can, that can continuously remind you to think about things in a certain way. We call them mentors, we call them friends, we call them business partners, but they're just helpful

[00:22:20] Michael: And it costs nothing.

[00:22:21] Michael: And it actually costs the person nothing to remind you.

[00:22:24] Juliet: And people like to help. This is something that really surprised me, that if you ask someone, it's I don't think it's flattering their ego because there might be part of it to that, that they're like, oh wow, you think I've got the answer, which I always get really surprised at when married friends ask me for relationship advice.

[00:22:39] Juliet: It's you do know I'm single and you're the married one, this makes no sense. But it's people. who want to have a conversation and if you're humble enough to put it out there to say, look, I'd really love your opinion on this. People are like, Oh, great. Yeah, let's chat about it. But you have to put your hand up.

[00:22:52] Juliet: You have to let them know they're not psychic, unfortunately.

[00:22:55] Michael: And that, and that's a very good way of putting it because. If you say to the way [00:23:00] you ask people also is important, right? And the way you just mentioned it there, I'd love your opinion on it. , it's better than saying, tell me how to do this,

[00:23:09] Juliet: There's

[00:23:10] Michael: right?

[00:23:10] Michael: Because people are like, yeah, there's that.

[00:23:12] Michael: And it's also like, well, go and figure it out yourself

[00:23:15] Juliet: That's consulting.

[00:23:17] Michael: But if you say, I'm thinking of this in this way, what's, how would you think about that? It's a much more engaging way to, converse with people. And also, , that then is, , you can, you can have a dinner party and you can have a conversation with someone and you end up sharing views on something. And it doesn't feel like work. It's not consulting, it's sharing views and people get very passionate about their view if you can create that environment with a mentor or somebody that's going to help you with your business, right? And you can, you can throw a view out there and immediately it gets pushed back on for X, Y, Z.

[00:23:49] Michael: And you, you've got data, you've got real value there, right? You can choose to ignore it if you like, but it's a real value of an opinion. So, I do think you're, , I like what you said there. And it's [00:24:00] very important how you ask. How you engage with people and you get a much richer outcome from that.

[00:24:07] Juliet: I'm loving this conversation because it's all about communications. It's really, it's it just validates what we're helping our clients do all the time. So thank you for that. It wasn't deliberate in any way. 

[00:24:19] Michael: Well, it, but it's, people underestimate it because everyone can talk and everyone can, , everyone can

[00:24:27] Juliet: well, everyone thinks they can listen too, which is...

[00:24:30] Michael: That's the key. And, and, and, and having, reminding ourselves that, that there is a, there is an art to properly engaging with people over a conversation, which involves a hell of a hell of a lot of listening and not listening to the spaces. For when you can talk, but actually listening to the content and may, and being prepared to change what you thought you were going to say because of new, new data coming in. I think that's an important point.

[00:24:59] Juliet: [00:25:00] We've just gone through the whole B Corp process and they're very hot on feedback and I'd been trained to do this previously, but asking all of your stakeholders, whether it be your suppliers, your team, your clients, your teams, to get to that high level environment. Co working places for feedback and actually for us, it's been the most useful, especially when you're a service based business, but having those data points, having that tangible trend of feedback from people, but even within the team, we were having this debate the other day and I was like no.

[00:25:27] Juliet: But I feel it should link from the LinkedIn to the blah, blah, blah. It's I'm one of them who's a new recruiter. What are we trying to achieve here? And I was like, good point. And it was just having that trusted space where we could actually, yeah, and challenge each other and have a proper chat about stuff, but hearing what people say, I think, and digesting it properly and revisiting it later on, but with that art of communication and being able to then take it and put it back out there in a better nugget is also super useful.

[00:25:56] Juliet: One thing that we do with guests is. From the previous guest, they have a [00:26:00] question for the future guest and our previous guest was Daisy from The Deck, who is now the has the biggest storefront on Savile Row and just launched her ready to wear yesterday, which is quite amazing. But her question was, I found really interesting and she said, what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?

[00:26:19] Michael: Well, there's one thing, so I've done a few crazy things for charity over the years. The last one was trekking to the South Pole and raised a couple of million for children with brain tumors. And before that I did 40 marathons in 40 days, which was also brutal. But

[00:26:37] Juliet: Oh my 

[00:26:37] Juliet: goodness. It's more than Eddie Izzard.

[00:26:39] Michael: it is the next one that, that my wife is still insistent that I, I shouldn't do, but is kind of softly planned for next year is rowing the Atlantic and. I think if I knew that I could not fail, then that would be a no brainer to do single handed. Whereas she's forcing me to take one other person along the way, right? So, I [00:27:00] would definitely write The Atlantic single handed if I knew I couldn't fail.

[00:27:03] Juliet: Amazing.

[00:27:04] Michael: For charity.

[00:27:06] Juliet: Good luck with that. 

[00:27:07] Michael: But the whole point, you see, the crazy thing about that is, I probably wouldn't do it if I knew I couldn't fail.

[00:27:15] Michael: , that the challenge is part of the achievement.

[00:27:18] Juliet: And the risk factor, they're not knowing.

[00:27:20] Michael: Yeah, it is. And, and, , people start their own businesses. Yes. They want to make money. Yes.

[00:27:26] Michael: They want to be successful, but they, , they should, they should, enjoy the fact that, , that's why people go to a casino. They, they know that the house always wins. They still enjoy going to a casino and playing the game because it's fun when it, when it happens. Right. So, , enjoy the journey

[00:27:44] Juliet: Do you think there's a bit of an addictive, there's a certain personality trait of people who are serial entrepreneurs because you've got a taste of it and you're like, you can see the potential of it. And for me, I never imagined I'd do it. I had wonderful, gorgeous jobs in amazing companies and I was [00:28:00] doing well and I was made redundant out of the blue.

[00:28:02] Juliet: So I had no choice. The world had fallen apart, this pandemic. I thought I'm going to make up a job for myself. And I was not brave. I just had no job to lose. I had nothing to lose. But people who. Elect to walk away from a salary and start a business. That is a much more thrilling slash petrifying decision to make.

[00:28:19] Juliet: But I think once you've done it and you realize that's possible, and then you've overcome building a website, that's possible. Oh, I've recruited a team. That's possible. You have this addiction of what else did I not know I can do that I can do? Do you think you ever lose the love of that?

[00:28:34] Michael: I think you do a little bit only because as you go through 

[00:28:38] Juliet: really tired? 

[00:28:39] Michael: family, you get a family, you get , kids dependents and your risk profile changes.

[00:28:46] Juliet: Yeah,

[00:28:47] Michael: The things that you could do, cause you had nothing to lose, suddenly, , you've got a mortgage to pay, you've got this, you've got that.

[00:28:54] Michael: And it takes a different set of different thought process, but it [00:29:00] takes a different courage as well to when, when you, , when it's just you, you kind of go, well, I can take that. And I know that even if everything fails and I start from zero again, I can do that. But when you have incremental dependents, , when you've got a business that's employing 400 people the responsibilities, you can't just say tomorrow, that's it, I've had enough, I'm done. these, these are people that have sub dependents as well. They have mortgages, they have children. And, and suddenly your responsibility is quite heavy to make it a success, not just for you, but for everyone that then is dependent on your success.

[00:29:40] Michael: So I 

[00:29:41] Juliet: know what it's like to be in your shoes because they are the employee and you're the self employed person, which I find very weird because you're working with them like this.

[00:29:48] Michael: But it's right because they, they expect, , they expect their salary to be paid at the end of the month and that's that.

[00:29:53] Michael: But but I think, , that does change. So your your appetite for risk as an individual probably gets higher [00:30:00] as you go in the sense that you've done it before, therefore you, you, you're more confident and you go, yeah, I can fix that. And I've got the pitfalls, but actually it's then tempered for, from your. of your, your, your life, if you like, as more dependents come into it.

[00:30:17] Juliet: you're more aware when you start at the beginning, lots of people have said, if you told me now what I would have to have done to get here, I probably wouldn't have done it. So it was good that I didn't know. It's 

[00:30:25] Michael: Well, as a kid, I used to stand on the edge of buildings and, , climb trees and, , all this sort of stuff. No way I'd take those risks now. , it was like, God, ,

[00:30:33] Michael: what if you fall? What if you fall? ?

[00:30:36] Juliet: What would your question be for our next guest? About anything about entrepreneurship or investment?

[00:30:44] Michael: So what is the, is the one single memory? In life that, that, that someone said something to you. What is that one thing that there's stuck with you all your life as a, as a single kind of [00:31:00] piece of advice or phrase. I'll tell you what mine is. When I got my apprenticeship paper, this is when I was 16, it's a very long time ago and there was no internet, there was no mobile phones, no nothing. And I had a letter from a company called Rockwell Automation. And it was, it was to tell me that I'd got my apprenticeship. And I was sitting on Bond Street Station on a, on a bench in Bond Street Tube Station. And there was an old man, I'm sure he's long gone, but he was an old man sitting next to me. Probably couldn't read what the letter said, but he saw me beam a smile. And he put his hand on my shoulder and he said, he said, Always go the extra mile, son, because there's less traffic there.

[00:31:44] Michael: And that stayed with me my entire life.

[00:31:48] Juliet: Ooh. I love

[00:31:50] Michael: and never knew his name, never, never saw him again, obviously. And but that stayed with me.

[00:31:57] Michael: So what would be the one [00:32:00] thing that stayed with you all your life that you that inspires you or that you remember for its profoundness,

[00:32:06] Juliet: oh, it's great. My other than carry umbrella so it doesn't rain is experience is what you get after you've needed it. And it doesn't really help anything. It was like, as long as you go in blind, you'll come out better at the end. And you've learned everything. It's if I'd known that at the beginning, it'd be great.

[00:32:20] Juliet: But anyway, I think I saw it when I was backpacking when I was 16. I was like, yeah, that's true.

[00:32:26] Michael: No,

[00:32:26] Juliet: thank you, Michael, so much. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. I've learned a lot about a lot. 

[00:32:32] Michael: Well, I'm absolutely delighted to share some moments,

[00:32:36] Michael: but you keep doing your amazing job because you're inspiring a lot of people.

[00:32:41] Michael: And and I'm so pleased that you think it's valuable to you as well, because what you're doing for others is, is very valuable to them.