Sustainable Packaging for Live Events (w/ Raegan Kelly of Better For All)

Better for All has created a better mousetrap when it comes to sustainable packaging for live events! Their focus started broad, but zeroed into a real problem and they have a fascinating solution. Learn more and get inspired in today's show!

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Transcript

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Okay. So welcome back to the sustainable packaging show where we ask ourselves the most important question, what packaging. Is actually sustainable. I have a great guest for you here today. Reagan Kelly is the head of product and sustainability and a founding member of better for all Reagan. Thank you very much for being on the show. My pleasure. So let's start, by giving the audience an idea of better for all the mission, the vision and why cups. We are, uh, better for all is a trademark of geosphere LLC. It's a California. Family founded company. Um, we started out in 2018 originally to take on very broadly single use plastics in the apparel industry. Um, and quickly figured out that, you know, trying to like fight for fractions of a pennies with, uh, you know, on apparel bags, et cetera, was going to be a really long slog. And we didn't have the funding for that. So we decided to pivot and focus on one product that we felt. People could really connect to, um, and cups, cups really just jumped out. One is like a, an area that what there wasn't a lot of kind of innovation in our minds in terms of sustainability. There are quite a few options on the market that aren't even recyclable. Um, so that was kind of, uh, you know, styrofoams and polystyrene cups, the red party cups, they're made from essentially the same material and they're not recyclable. So. That felt like, like a really worthy cause. Um, so we, we established better for all four years ago and set about making the most sustainable party cup on the market. I love it. Clear focus, clear mission, right? Not trying to do too many things at once, which is something that some companies do and they get themselves in trouble, you become not great at anything. So the party cup as an alternative to the red solo cup or the styrofoam cup. That's the initial vision. That's right. And how's it going? So, uh, you know, if you asked me a year ago, I, I, I'm not sure what I would have said probably it's really hard. Yeah. It's really hard. But, um, yeah, I think right now it's feeling really good. There's a lot of joy. Um, you know, we're still, we're still definitely like funding the project and we're, it's not like, um, We're in the black yet, but we are starting to see real excitement and traction, um, out in, in the market. Um, we're getting like real sustained interest from festivals and, um, and some like smaller businesses, bars, et cetera. Um, so, and we get contacted every day. People are really excited. I think they finally get it. It feels like in the U S it's taken us a little while to kind of. Wrap our heads around something besides throwing stuff in the blue bin and hoping something good happens to it. Yeah. Wishing. So, um, yeah. So, and then I would also say that we, you know, we. chose to work with the PHA because, um, you know, I had, I was looking for something maximally sustainable from my point of view, which meant that it would biodegrade fully in the widest array, you know, range of environments, um, was also commercially compostable. Was non toxic, um, and could be manufactured in existing equipment, right? Cause just the equipment itself is, the footprint is massive. So you have to like fit inside of the current system right now with your material. Um, and at first I would say that, you know, PHAs were just kind of, Getting on their feet, um, in terms of like really being like scalable and, and implementable at the manufacturing level, commercializable. So, uh, it took us a while to kind of figure it out, but, um, we've had a lot of help from our manufacturer, raw materials partners and our manufacturing partners. Um, so, you know, at this point we are a commercial product. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. You know, these things take time. I think that's what people don't. They don't, uh, always account for you're literally changing. A habit, a way that it's been done for a long time. And sometimes you have to have, I found in my own life, the proper expectation of how long it's going to take sometimes and how long you might need to persist. Or else you get discouraged. You say, what's wrong? What's wrong? Actually, nothing's wrong. This is just how it, how it happens. So one of the reasons I was excited to talk to you, um, amongst, amongst several, um, writers. was to hear about your expertise as far as the different types of bioresins or bioplastics. So you guys chose PHBH. I would love to hear a little bit about what PHBH is and then if you can also talk about how it compares to other bioresins that you commonly hear about, the PLAs, um, that there's several of them. So if you could just name some different ones and how they compare and maybe why someone would choose. A PHBH versus a PLA. Um, I think that would be really insightful for our audience. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, when we first, the first cup I ever made was PLA. Um, and I was excited about it. You know, I, it was a, uh, bio based resin. It was certified commercially compostable. Um, you know, I was concerned that it looked just like it's PET and plastic counterparts. That was, Felt like it might be confusing for composters and sorters, but I was excited about it. Um, and then as we kind of waded into the market, we realized that, um, there were a couple of couple of real obstacles just at the use case level, which was one P P L a is, um, really like. High temperature intolerant. It melts at a really low temperature, uh, relatively speaking. Right. And we are dealing with an increasingly warm climate. So when we looked at say, you know, warehouse conditions, et cetera, um, melting cups was like a big issue that we kept hearing back from people lost, you know, lost. Lost, uh, goods is not really a great selling point. Very, very good selling point. Right, you want to lead with that one. There you go. Right. And then the other thing was that, um, so that besides the plastic lookalike issue, um, the other one was that I was hearing back from commercial composters that PLA didn't always, fully compost in the turn that they needed, which, you know, these are businesses, they need everything to compost at a certain rate. And if it didn't, then they basically, it's a contaminant and it's a contaminant that looks like plastic. So, you know, it's a, it's something that PLA is now working on and in part, they're working on it by mixing. PHA into PLA. So I just decided to like pivot myself and our, and my family members were like, you know, I pitched the case for PHA and just said this material, it has certified marine degradable status. It's certified soil degradable. It can be certified home degradable. And it's certified commercially compostable. So why don't we try and make a cup out of this, right? Because it solves the problem of low recycling rates, right? So you get these like 80 percent of whatever material you're using, ending up either in landfill, being incinerated in the environment. Um, or you end up potentially with your cop not ending up in a compost bin because we don't have like a huge compost infrastructure in the United States. So like, yeah, that was the other thing is we get constant pushback. Well, but there's no, you know, we'd say, well, if the recycling rates are 9 to 22 percent on a good day, Like, isn't this a better option? No, because there's no composting facilities. So I just need to get out of the loop. Yeah. I had to get out of the yeah, but loop. So, um, yeah. So you asked me, sorry, you asked me to differentiate PLA. Is, uh, derived from corn or other starches, sugar. Um, I think there's, I used to know the names of all the companies, you know, in my sleep, but yeah, so, so PLA is, is a massive player in the bioplastic, um, Market, and it's got tons of great applications, but for our use case, we really decided that, um, loss to the environment and also the ability to home compost was important to us. So, um, we went with PHA, which is, uh, manufactured differently. It's a bioresin that is made by feeding carbon rich feedstocks, sugars, starches, Um, there's a company in California called New Light that has been capturing carbon like methane and feeding it to the same microorganisms and fermenting them into a biopolymer. So you can. You can be really innovative. Yeah, you can be really innovative. Um, certainly those innovations haven't really reached any level of commercial scale, but they're really promising to me. So I liked the fact that I was picking a material. That had this huge potential upside as adoption grew, that we could start really looking at bringing down impacts across the board, right. And creating potentially carbon negative products, which would be incredible. Um, so that, that's the difference I think in a nutshell. Got it. Awesome. So that's a lot of good stuff there. So to, to unpack it, the PLA versus, uh, PHA conversation, and PHBH is a, is it a type of PHA or is it a, is it a different name for it? What is PHBH versus PHA? So PHA is a big family of, I think I've looked at different numbers, but I think it's like over a hundred different molecules fall inside of the PHA family of molecules and, um, they're used in all types of applications. We chose PHBH for two reasons. Um, one was that. At the time that I started interviewing, uh, material suppliers, there were only like five in the world. And so we needed to find something that was, that was either produced or available close to our point of production, right? Just looking at carbon emissions and efficiencies it was during COVID. So I had just moved all manufacturing to the United States. Um, and so we found there were, there are two big players in the U S. Well, at this point there's four, um, and one of them was not making anything that could be really injection molded, which is the manufacturing method we use to make our cups, um, and hadn't quite figured out thermal forming. And so, and they were really big and they only wanted to work with really big, uh, potential customers with like a hundred million dollars, right. To, you know, commit to converting their, their material. I, we don't have that. But come on, we're a startup here. Yeah, we're a startup. So, we, we contacted Konica Biopolymers. They're a subdivision of Konica, Japan. And they, they started working with PHAs in the, at the end of the 20th century. And had developed a lot of IP and a number of their sort of inventions are actually in use, have been purchased and are in use by, say, Danamer and, uh, different, Existing companies making different types of PHA. So that felt like I liked their credibility. I liked their, their 30 years working on it. You know, like they really had a lot of knowledge. Um, there are much larger companies so that. You know, if they needed to keep, you know, plunging a lot of money into development, they could, right? It wasn't like, because we're so small, like, we really need to be able to rely on larger entities to partner with us until we get on our feet. Um, and so Konica had the ability to scale the commitment to R& D, and they were also wide open to working with a tiny little startup with a big idea. So that's what I do with PHBH. Yeah. Awesome. So it sounds like you found a great partner. So, so the main reasons you chose the PHBH versus the PLA, just to recap for audiences, Is the, uh, the, the clear color of the PLA, you are concerned, it might confuse people and, and look too much like a traditional plastic cup, which I respect the temperature, uh, that the PLA might actually melt and the, and the finished product might not be in good condition, obviously not something we want. And then also the quality of the compost. That was one of my other questions, which is. And it seems like you've already answered it, but are certain bioresins more desirable to the composters who are ultimately going to utilize it and then, and then sell it? Are they, are there certain ones that are more desirable that you've found than others? And it sounds like the answer is yes, but I think you'd like to elaborate on that. Yeah, so I guess I would say if you have a pure PLA That is you know has no chemical additives or manufacturing sprays or anything, right? Which is what we do as well Like you can't add anything toxic into the mix I would say that if you have a commercial composter with the exact right setup for PLA It's perfect. It's going to be great. It will completely go away. It will be consumed by microorganisms in the right amount of time. And you will end up with good compost. Um, but there are not so many composters in the United States and they're all kind of flying solo and trying to figure it out. And they decide what kind of material mix they take in. And if they have any difficulty with something, They just, because of it's so costly, right, they have to throw away an entire compost pile. They just stop taking it. Right. So in LA, they just don't take PLA anymore. But I mean, that's, that's a huge cost to the, to the product makers. Cause we're like, now you have to fight your way back in. Right. Like, so we are. Always over here trying to figure out a meeting with different waste management people, their advocates, et cetera. Like, Hey, take this cup, put it in your compost pile, see what happens. Like maybe, and if it doesn't work, tell me, you know, but like, let's, let's work together so that, that we can close this loop. Um, so I would say that it's not really that, that PLA makes bad compost. It's that we wanted a cup that wasn't going to create. A waste issue, no matter what happened to it. And so that was why we went with PHA. Okay. Got it. Got it. So it's very fascinating. Cause I've never met anyone who's had these one on one conversations. Like talk to me, what, what is that? Like you go to this compost facility, then you go to this one and you're, and you're, and you're saying, Hey, try our cups. You should accept these. How does that, how does that play out? I would love to hear it. So mostly these are my people, right? I mean, they love to just sink their hands in dirt and like, they love the whole concept that you can take, you know, trash and like turn it into something really useful. Um, so I find it really easy to talk to them. Um, and, and mostly what I just say is here are my certifications, right? And here's my product. Queers. Process it. And tell me, tell me if you're open. So we, you know, I know, you know, we were the official cup of Tortuga this last April in Florida. And, um, the first thing we did, okay. Yeah. So the first thing we did was, uh, after we were kind of vetted from the certification Side by rock the ocean sustainability director. I asked to be introduced to their compost facility Of choice and so they introduced me to renewable services Which is a small community composter that does all the events along the seaboard um in florida there and they They had a lot of experience with different materials. They were wide open to compostables, which is fantastic So I already had like an open mind to deal with and then they just said first and foremost Please take these cups. They're so easy to sort. So that was interesting for me. I was like, Oh, like for them, it was like, this is going to be a no brainer, no matter who's standing there going like this and sorting at the end of each day, this cup's always going to go in the compost bin. Cause it looks super unique. It's really easy to say this one good to go. So that was the first thing. And then the second thing is then they did the, Put the cups through composting. They broke down super fast and we got the green light. So, yeah, so I think it's, I think it's actually, once you have the base certifications, you do need to be, you know, third party certified, commercially compostable, and then in the United States, you need to be like sort of second level vetted by BPI and for more and more composters, BPI certification is. the gold standard, I think. Right, right. So these people are, they're excited that, oh my gosh, someone's doing this. So they're kind of pumped to be talking with you in the first place, and then the proof is in the pudding by how it actually breaks down, how it actually composts. And is this sort of like a visual thing? Like how does a composter, your cup, and we'll show it on the screen. Um, when we edit this has a unique look. So is it literally, is it that manual where it's like, okay, we know that that cup that looks like that is PHBH and we can take it, or is there some way for them to detect the material and whether it should be sorted out to landfill because it's a contaminant, or if it's. Right. How did they do that today? Yeah, so like, from my understanding, most events at this point use human labor to sort. So they have people standing there and they have like a, you know, they have a little shelf of acceptable products, you know, and so if it's film or different forks or whatever, they also do things like control the materials allowed on on this, on this You know, in the setting, so festivals are potentially an optimal closed loop setting, right? You have everything you consume, you buy on site and you dispose of on site. So I think it's a little easier for them if you're talking about murks or something. Yes. If you optically sorted for PHAs, you would be able to detect PHA as a distinct material. Um, Yeah. And then I would say like, it's going to take some education, but because we kept our cups in the natural pH, BH color, they are like semi translucent. They're kind of a funky gold tone. Um, they don't, they just don't look like other cups on the market. So, and then I designed them to have a slightly, different shape. Um, it's funny. I heard your coke bottle episode and you said, you know, they, I mean, it was really pressing and they designed a bottle that you could, you know, know was a coke bottle with your eyes closed. I mean, I had a similar, I didn't know that story. Yeah. I didn't know that story, but I had a similar like thought. Like I really want this cup to be. Feel and look really super different. So you ask yourself, what am I holding? Why is it different? Right? Yeah. Cause sometimes that, otherwise they're just going to say, Oh, it's just a cup and it's brown color. And how do you tell the difference between this, which just has a lot of credibility versus some of these other things you see that are greenwashed. It's a virgin plastic tinted tan to trick the consumer. Right. So how do you differentiate? Um, so, so that's at the event. So go from the event to the composter. And since it's in a closed loop setting, we can, we can feel fairly certain that it is, uh, this approved cups. What about in like a industrial compost collection bin? So it goes into these bins, like in that case. On the composting end, do you have an understanding of how they handle it from their perspective and how they sort out what is, what's legit, what's a, what's a better for all cup versus what's a greenwashed plastic cup that's tinted tan? Yeah. So I believe that how they're, this is like still being figured out for sure. This is still being figured out. Um, but I think that the thing like the Compost Manufacturers Alliance is recommending is that you get pre vetted by somebody like the Compost Manufacturers Alliance, so you submit your materials and they give you yet another certification. It's, of course, expensive. It's really onerous when you're a small business to like go through all of these processes to prove that your thing is what you say it is. I do think we should have to prove it, but I would also, I also would say that like, there's a lot of certifications you can pay for, um, to get sort of through this process, I'm. Just going the direct route now because we're still Small and so i'm just talking directly to the composter in question like in the region in the you know We're working with a small zero waste store And she is making sure That the local hauler is going to be cool with these cups if she sells them to a customer and they throw them in the green bin, so it's pretty Pretty grassroots at this point Yeah, yeah, but they would be they're they are super When you see them in the compost, they do not look like a plastic cup, um, for sure. So I think once you get through the process of being vetted, they'll say, okay, that's, that's pH, pH cup. It's good. We're good. Got it. Got it. So that's part of your branding and your vision is making it distinct for consumers and also for the composters as well. So that seems like a very good strategic decision. Yeah. I should just mention to you that like closed, I think it was the closed loop consortium just did a big study, just. Earlier this year, I think with BPI and they, they did, uh, they had, and I don't know what the numbers are in terms of how many people they surveyed, but they had people look at a variety of products and, you know, with and without printing different colors, brown, green, you know, natural, and would the, would the consumer perceive that it was compostable and. And et cetera. Right. And would it end up in the right bin? And then with the composter feel, feel confident and definitely printing on the product was like a big takeaway. Printing is its own, as you well know, you know, thinking to you about printing. And I would say like printing, it's not just that, you know, I've actually found some really cool ink suppliers and printers that are willing to just not use any of the pretreatments or varnishes, et cetera. Et cetera. But you know, you still have to print and that's expensive. So that's, that's another needle that I'm threading. Got it. Yeah. And then if, if I print, do I have to recertify and that this whole, this whole, I want a red cup, but I mean, there's so many things and I love that you, you're so thoughtful about to think about the end of life and I think that's how we have to be. We can't just say, okay, I'm using a PHBH. This is great. It's I'm using a PHBH. Yes. There's benefits to that. But. Ideally, we want it to end up in the right, the right place in the end. Let's move on to the Tortuga event because that was very exciting. I think that was. Um, I don't know if it was your first or just a major victory as far as getting your product into a big music festival. Talk about, like, what, what exactly you set up with Tortuga and, and I'm curious how it went, how it was received by, by the audience there. Okay. So, um, yeah, we were, we were contacted. Well, we've been working with, uh, Live Nation and looking at potential festivals that might be interested in our cup. Right. Um, and they recommended Tortuga to us. At first we were looking to be a sponsor and then we decided that we just didn't have the money to sponsor an event yet. So we sadly we're going to part ways. And then Tortuga heard about us and said, we just, we want to. We want to do it anyway. And we'll just buy the cup. So what they did was they, um, first they pre vetted us, really analyzed the material impact. The critical issue for them was that the event takes place on the beach. One, two, they, all the money, they're a nonprofit and all the money goes to ocean conservation issues. So they're really worried about the ocean and they don't want anything that comes in because of the festival to end up in the ocean. And if it does, they don't want it there, you know, in two decades, causing wreaking havoc. So, um, they looked at the five gyres report, which you're probably aware of five gyres, but they, you know, they're also like an independent nonprofit. They have a scientist who's been analyzing bioplastics in the environment. And has, you know, shown using real on the ground tests that PHA breaks down rapidly in marine environments. So, I think that gave them some comfort. Um, so they, they sought us and we were absolutely thrilled. Um, The cups do cost more than plastic cups, and they cost more than PLA cups. Um, we're just at that stage. So, what they did was they went to Sky Vodka, and they said, you know, what if you, what if we put your name on the cups, and you offset the premium. And so, it was like a, Three way collaboration at that point. Um, and then we partnered with Renewable. We sent them the cups. We got them on board. They made sure all the signage in the facility had pictures of the cups on it so that everybody knew, um, that this cup belonged in the compost bin. They also had us print on the back of the cup, you know, this is a compostable cup, toss me in the bin. Um, our cups are also. Technically reusable. Um, and I don't mean industrially reusable, but I mean, like you can wash your cups and reuse them because PHA has a really unique um. Are not unique, but unique in the biomaterial space. It's high heat tolerant to the boiling point of water to 212 degrees Fahrenheit. So you can wash the cups and reuse them. Um, so you know, they first looked at potentially reusing them, but didn't have the infrastructure on site. So we provided cups every day. Um, and every at the end of every day. Renewable would would You know, sort and send them to the compost facility. Um, They're, they have the highest, this is what I've heard, I don't have the exact metrics yet. Um, because they're waiting to kind of do their own press release. They get sustainability awards all the time. So, the, the, the, Rock the ocean tour to the promoters. So they're like, they love their metrics and I understand it. So, um, yeah, so we don't have those yet, but, um, what they did say is they have the highest diversion rates to date. Um, and. In part, they, that that's because of the cops in their mind and they're going to use our cups next year. Um, and we just, yeah, it's great. And we just, we just heard from, so we also had, I hired this small collective of con they call themselves con conscious content creators in Fort Lauderdale, and they make all kinds of social media reels, et cetera, about sustainability. Um, and so I hired them to go to that. Festival and cover it from our point of view. And so they've been making these amazing reels and telling the story, which helps rock the ocean. I mean, I feel like as, um, as one of the conscious content creators, people says is like, he's like, everything is connected in sustainability. Like everything is connected, which is, you know, it's kind of like, duh, right? But like what we've had to remember with this pollution issue is like You don't you don't have something like that last two minutes and then doesn't have an impact afterwards, right? It's like everything is connected, right? So I feel like On our side of this new market, basically, we have to sort of collaborate with brands to lift each other. I feel like that's kind of a thing that's emerging in my mind. Um, so it's a little bit less like silo IP, you can't know what I'm doing, right? It's more like, Well, let's partner. Let's figure it out. I couldn't agree more. I could not agree more. I think it's time to celebrate brands that are in sustainability. Um, and I think that's the, of course, there's always competition in business, but I feel it's more like Here's another person who's fighting this battle and like, I'm just happy there's another person. Let's work together. Whereas other industries, maybe it's a little more territorial. Um, and I'll give a shout out to, um, I had a guy on the podcast. The episode didn't go live yet. It'll go live before this one, but, uh, he's the founder of half shell vodka. He's also in Florida. And he's doing an event also in Fort Lauderdale or as part of it. And they have a vodka, the first vodka in a, in one of these paper bottles with the, this little plastic lining, but they remove like great, great reduction of, of a lot of environmental factors, as you know, it's multifaceted. But so maybe they could get, uh, included in that. And then you'd have the paper bottle with the PHBH cups. So, um, yeah, we'll give them, we'll give them a shout out there. So, uh, sounds like a great success. Always an amazing sign when someone says, let's do it again. Right. It wasn't a pilot and I don't know how well that went. Let's do it again. That's a huge sign. So, uh, super pumped for you there and very well done. Anything else on, uh, on the, on the, uh, event before we wrap up with our last, uh, our last segment here? Yeah. So I think, you know, you just, you asked what the fans thought and, and. I wasn't on the ground every day, but, uh, from the videos and the interactions and the photographs, like people were psyched and we got some like really nice comments on social media when the posts went up and even like, I don't, I've never seen these cups before. I really hope they have them next year. It made me really happy to see this, you know? So even if they had had like sustainable options previously, I don't think. The fans could perceive it maybe as easily. So there is something about the distinction, like the difference that attracts people and connects them to the material, which was the hope, but I think it might actually work. Amazing. Yeah. That's my thing is like in a concert festival, how many people get it and are excited about it versus how many are just like, Oh, give me a drink. Right. And the good news is if you don't notice and you just have 30 beers, It's all good. You're still, you're still in good hands, right? We've done the thinking for those people. They're non toxic bears. There you go. That's true. That's true. So, um, awesome. Congrats again on that. So I wanted to get your opinion just as a sustainability leader and someone who's done this for a while, um, on something that I talk about on the show, sustainability. You know, the goal of the show really is to dig in. Originally it started, it was just my journey in sustainable packaging. It was a passion and I was sharing what I learned. But as I've sort of narrowed down the show, one of the goals is How do we further advance this conversation of what is actually sustainable? You know, we can, there's a quote I like, if you run enthusiastically in the wrong direction, that's not a good idea. So I want to go sustainable. I want to go. Well, if you pick the wrong option, you're not really doing a benefit and we have to be serious about protecting the planet and not just putting the sustainable label on what we're doing. So this is one of my core, core beliefs and core goals. Um, however, at the same time, sustainability is multifaceted. And sometimes you can't solve every environmental problem with one package. There's no silver bullet. And that's the reality of what we deal with. Um, and interesting in that Coke episode, there was the quote from the Coke CEO who they're using a hundred percent PCR plastic for their, for their Coke bottles. And they're making all sorts of improvements. And I gave them a credit for, for the various improvements they're making. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and celebrate progress rather than shoot it down. But there is this, this quote and this theory or this mindset that says, and it's coming up, not just from Coke, a few places it's plastic, petroleum, plastic has a positive side. Of course we can talk about waste, but if you look at the LCA, you're going to see less emissions when using plastic. And I said, what, you gotta be kidding me. And then there's actually a lot of people that have the same data point that say, if you look at plastic from a, from an emissions perspective, It's actually better than aluminum, better than glass, better than a lot of these materials that are traditionally thought of as more sustainable. So, how do you process this kind of stuff? Do you think that's like, sort of, the plastics industries? Attempt to put a sustainable cap on and it's, it's, it's a more of a marketing pitch or have you found that there's actually merit to that? And you're more concerned with questions like ocean conservation, microplastics, and that's more your emphasis, which is why you're doing what you're doing. Like, how do you, how do you work through some of these topics? Yeah. So, um, I listened to that episode and, um, and I, I've been, I've been faced with the LCA, uh, debate, right? Um, I, I lost a potential really big account, um, early this year to RPET. So I'm use, I'm familiar. I'm familiar, especially because it's less expensive too, so it's like. It's less expensive. I don't really want to spend it. And I got this LCA. Okay. It's, but yeah. Continue please. So I guess I fundamentally fall down on the side that we need to get off petroleum. So, um, like if we're going to talk emissions, I think we're just like, We're quibbling over here while everything burns over here. I mean, I just feel like it's it's like a red herring, I guess. Um, you know, and I do think, you know, it's clever marketing. Um, the plastics industry has had had a really long time to find different ways to frame. Responses to the challenges that they get. Um, and I also don't really trust that every single factor is being brought to bear on that LCA. So, I do think it's true. Like I can see it with any reusable system. If you Can recycle and reuse something. It has the impact, right? But it's like first. Okay. So I have like many tranches that I look at these things. I would say that I think the toxic one is not we're not really at the point yet where we can factor it in. But if you just take the PFAS issue alone, you can see how that went from an article about PFAS in, you know, Okay. Chipotle and sweet green containers to like massive, uh, you know, super fun cleanup issues worldwide. Right. So like it's, you know, and these are major issues to have in our blood supply and in our water supply. I mean, this is not small. Um, so just one tiny thing, right. There was a big nature article, article, and I was trying to find it before this. Podcast and I couldn't, I didn't have the time, but, um, they talked just about, there's a big petroleum byproducts processing plant that, that makes plastic right, um, in Cancer Alley, Louisiana, the, you know, the coastline of Louisiana has all kinds of plastic processing, petrochemical processing plants, and. One is called Cancer Alley because the people who live there are suffering from the toxic byproducts that are leaked into their environment by plastic processing to, um, the people who process P E T, right? Have to wear hazmat suits because the byproducts of just working with the material is so toxic. So tell me that drinking or, uh, Having like contact with your food with this material does not have some at least tiny impact and when you build those up over millions and millions and millions of containers. Then there's the recycled material thing where there was, you know, and the thing is, I don't have time to run all of these to ground and then have my own scientists analyze them. But there were like pre substantial studies showing that recycled resins have higher concentrations of the, of the issue of the phthalates, bisphenols, all the stuff that dioxins that we're worried about getting into our bodies and into our oceans. So That's one thing that I clearly feel really bad. All right. I appreciate that so much. You putting that perspective out there. Cause I think we have to listen to all perspectives, especially you can get like, I think it's the end all be all. Oh, there was an LCA, but like, you're talking about health. I think maybe we don't talk enough about, about, you know, Human health as well. That needs to at least be on the table, right? It's like, it's very devastating when he's saying about the cancer alley and those types of things. It's, uh, And these are real and these people have been protesting and talking about this for decades. Like, yeah, there's real impacts to the decisions we make and the materials that we work with. And I would also say that like, you know, I'm not delusional. I know that petroleum is not going away. You know tomorrow, but I do believe that if we don't start to take risks and and innovate into different of a variety of solutions like I also don't think we can solve all problems with trees. I mean, we have finite resources on this planet and we need to come up with a diverse mix of solutions alongside reduction and recycling and reuse and all of these great systems that will take some time to implement. Um. So I see that there's a place for bioplastics regardless of what's happening in the, in the plastics recycling and production side of things. Um, let's find the best use cases and get, and get going, grow, adopt, like take risks. I need, you know, we need these big companies to take some risks. Yes, yes. Action. And it's like action versus perfection. You don't need perfection to make progress and to make an impact. I think what, what you guys are doing, that's very interesting. And I hope it's happening is that the number of people are the type of people that go to a music festival. There's, I don't know how many people go, there's probably many thousands. Some of them have businesses and some of them probably use petroleum plastic packaging. They go, wait a second. And it gets the conversation started. And that's where like this mindset that we're all in it together. So maybe you're, maybe you're impacting people in ways that you'll you'll never even know. Let's hope. Let's hope one day at a time. Well, I love that. Thank you for sharing. That might be my favorite part of the segment because it's, it's seeing things from the big picture and seeing, I think sometimes we get so tunnel vision. Um, that we missed the big picture. And I think that's, that's really valuable. You just shared. So closing out, I love to celebrate brands. Um, hopefully we'll all be celebrating, uh, what you guys are doing at better for all, and hopefully there's another convention that's going to reach out to you as a result of the podcast. I'd love if you could tell me some of your favorite brands. That are using sustainable packaging to give them a shout out. Anyone doing anything that, that, uh, I encourage consumers vote with your dollars, right? It's something people say, Oh my gosh, I'm so stressed about the planet. I can't sleep. I, this and that. And I say, I get you, but you got to do something. Vote with your dollars. Are there any companies that you would love to give a little bit of love that are using sustainable packaging? Yeah. So, um, one that I love to shout out always is Blue Land. Um, I don't know if you're familiar with them, but they're home, home cleaners. And I literally cannot believe how many, you know, bottles. That I did, I didn't know at the time that our majority filled with water of clean cleanser, cleansers, body soaps, hand soaps, I have eliminated from our household by using BlueLand. Um, and they also pack everything, like every, every, Dose is pre somehow like dried into capsule form. There's no packaging on it and they're packed in a compostable kind of sachet. Um, yeah, I love blue land. And then, um, there's, there are some clothing companies that are really thoughtful about the materials they use. Um, I mostly just try and buy used at this point, but, um, Pangea, I think my daughter bought something and everything was in compostable packaging. Really well labeled, really beautiful. Um, every, they clearly thought about the labeling, the string, like everything had been thought through. Um, cotton, I've heard K O T N has, is also equally thoughtful. True botanical skin care. Um, they use, um, There is some plastic in the, in the caps, et cetera, but like they right size all of the cardboard packaging. So you get, you know, there's no bubble wrap, no excess, no foam. Um, and then there was just this like tape company that I want to give a little shout out to. I don't even know how well they're doing. They're called Monta M O N T A and they make a, a purely compostable packing tape, um, which is really hard to do. It's hard to make composable adhesive that's non toxic. So they figured it out, we used it, um, and it's, it's great. So. Okay. So we'll give shout outs, maybe we'll pop them on the screen in the video version, or at least put them in the notes below. But that's, that's a lot of great examples there. And, and my personal opinion, and I think you'll agree. All right. I think I know you well enough now to say you'll agree. But when I see a company doing those things, People say, what's the point? Does it matter? Does it matter? Why even bother? I still hear these things. Is it just about legacy? Is it just about doing the right thing? And I think it is about legacy and doing the right thing, but does it make consumers want to buy it? Can it drive revenue? Can it drive numbers? Which is how to get people's attention. My personal experience as a consumer is Yes. Do you feel that way? Do you find yourself picking brands and actually buying revenue? Not, you know, nice thoughts. Revenue because of sustainable packaging. Do you find that for yourself? A hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred percent. I am so loyal to brands that I see really thinking through every single detail. And on, on the other side, I'm like, Oh, when I feel tricked or like, you know, the packaging on the outside is cardboard and printed with water based ink, you know, and then you open it and there's like a polystyrene tray or something. I like making me cringe over here. Again, I say it's green, but you tricked the consumer. Maybe when the consumer wasn't as educated, you could trick them and get away with it. But now as the consumer is getting more educated, that is such a mistake. That will backfire. That will make people dislike you. You're going to ruin trust, create a negative word of mouth. And the best thing you can do is actually be thoughtful and it doesn't need to be perfect. Like you said, that brand with the glass bottle and they use a little plastic. Some people give them a hard time saying, why are they using plastic? I don't, you don't need to be perfect. Just be authentic with what you actually are. Talk about the improvements you're making and you'll get credit for the improvements you're making. Don't give a false sense of who you are and mislead people. That's When, you know, bad things happen for your brand and it's not a legacy that I think anyone wants to leave behind. Where can we learn more about, uh, Better for All, Regan? Let's, let's wrap up. So where should we send people, um, and, uh, any closing remarks? Thank you for your time. This has been really wonderful. I've enjoyed it. Yeah, it's been, it's been, it's been a lot of fun, a lot of fun. Um, so yeah, you can check us out at betterforall. co Or better for all dot shop. And if you go to dot co, it'll drive you to dot shop. But if you want to buy, we have a brand new e commerce presence that we're very excited about, and you can buy sleeves of cups at a time. Awesome. Let's go to dot shop, right? So we can drive some transactions. That's the place to go vote with your dollars. If you want to see improvements and you want to see things get better rather than just being in fear, take action to make an improvement. On your life personally, and also to support and put some positivity towards someone who's dedicating their lives and a team dedicating their lives to make things better. Reagan, thank you very much for being on the show. Yeah. Thank you for having me.