The Classical School Ecosystem | Timothy Dernlan

On this episode of Anchored, Soren is joined by Timothy Dernlan, Vice President of Advancements and Consulting for the Association of Classical Christian Schools. The two talk about Timothy’s transition from coaching college sports to the world of classical, Christian education. They also discuss his journey from his first discovery of ACCS to his role now as Vice President. They conclude by exploring Timothy’s vision for a supportive classical school ecosystem and the encouraging trends in the classical school movement. 

Transcript

Soren Schwab (CLT) (00:01.258)
Welcome back to the Anchored Podcast, the official podcast of the Classic Learning Test. My name is Soren Schwab, VP of Partnerships here at CLT, and today we're joined by Timothy Dernlin. Dr. Dernlin earned his doctorate in organizational leadership from Ashland University and was named the Outstanding Graduate in 2013. He also studied at Lehigh University, New Geneva Theological Seminary, Penn State, and Purdue University. He currently serves as Vice President for the Association of Classical Christian Schools.

He has served as head of school at institutions ranging from 200 to 1300 students and has served on a variety of nonprofit boards and committees. He consults with schools and specializes in board governance, strategic planning, and financial stability. He is the author of the books Classical Christian Virtue, A Guide to Understanding Classical Education, The Classical Reading List, and will publish this summer his new book Classical Christian Board Governance.

Tim and his wife Kara were married in 2000, and they have two sons and two daughters. They enjoy hiking, reading, camping, exercising, theology, singing, and playing board games together as a family. And I am so delighted to welcome my friend, Tim Dernan, to our podcast today. Welcome, Tim. Oh, absolutely. This is like, you know, just recording one of the many conversations we're having anyways on a weekly basis. So this is really, really exciting.

Timothy (01:17.449)
It's great to be here, Soren. Thank you so much for having me on.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (01:29.214)
Well, as we always do at the Anchor podcast, we're going to start talking about our guests own educational journey So talk to us a little bit about growing up. What kind of schools did you attend K-12?

Timothy (01:38.505)
Oh, sure. I grew up in a tiny little Midwestern town in Ohio, a thousand people in the town. And my parents sent me to a little Christian school for kindergarten through fifth grade. And my mom was my kindergarten teacher. She taught three of us in this school in kindergarten. And so that was great. And then I shifted over to our local public school from fifth through 12th grade. And that was...

little classrooms of about 20 students. And it was nice, it was good. And then I went on to Purdue University and then became interested in classical education from there.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (02:19.33)
So I got to ask as a Boilermaker, did it hurt you watching Michigan win the national championship or were you, was that, I know you were not a football player yourself, but.

Timothy (02:27.857)
You know, I bounced around the Big Ten enough in some of my jobs that I just root for the Big Ten. I live in lower Alabama now. So any non-SCC team, you know, I'm sorry, I probably offended half your audience, but I was rooting for the Big Ten.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (02:31.487)
Right.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (02:40.734)
Oh, that's funny. Well, you have my support, that's for sure. So we mentioned you, Purdue, Penn State, others. I know that you were exposed to classical education, but also part of the reason you bounced around was because of sports. You are an athlete, some people might not know that about you. You were a, I guess I can humbly say, you were a really, really good wrestler. When did that start? When did you fall in love with wrestling? And I guess what doors did that

Timothy (03:11.193)
I was the youngest of four boys and my dad got us involved in wrestling at an early age. I actually started when I was five and it just became my main sport and I got to travel around the world. I competed until I was 30. So after Purdue, I went on to coach and continued to compete in two Olympic cycles and lived at the Olympic Training Center and wrestled. I really love Eastern Europe because I got to wrestle over there a lot and the people over there are fantastic. So...

It was a really good, informative experience. Of course, when you travel a lot, it really helps you be more empathetic to those around you, even here domestically. It just really exposes you to get beyond and outside yourself.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (03:42.082)
Well, besides, yeah.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (03:56.138)
Right, yeah, no, I would know. And it's always interesting when I talk to folks, sometimes it seems like the grass is always greener, until you actually travel, and there's always wonderful things in other cultures and other countries that you admire, that you love. And then you come back to America and like, okay, this is still pretty much the greatest. So, but it does broaden your perspective, right?

Timothy (04:17.971)
And and you were you in Germany your whole upbringing your.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (04:21.886)
Yeah, until I was 20, 21, I think. You know, so yeah. So besides the obvious point of like, well, wrestling, you know, the ancient Greeks, the ancient Romans, there was some connection to classical education, I assume. That's probably not why you started wrestling. As you said, your older brothers and your dad got you into it. When were you first exposed to classical education yourself?

Timothy (04:25.681)
Fantastic. Very good.

Timothy (04:46.969)
So I studied communication and education when I was going through Purdue University and in the late 90s 1997 my brother Steve Enrolled my niece Damaris in an ACCS school a classical Christian school So in the late 90s, he started talking to me about these words that I didn't understand like omnibus and other things of how to

Timothy (05:15.497)
study the classics. And so he exposed me in a young time in my life. I was still going through college. And so from there, I started reading all the books I could on classical education. It was actually a pamphlet by Greg Strawbridge. He first gave me that exposed me to classical education. So that was nice.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (05:36.686)
Wow, is there, so that was kind of the first one. Is there one book that you can point to that was like, okay, that one really captures, except for the ones that obviously you wrote, but you're humble, you probably were. Is there a one book that you can point to that really was formative?

Timothy (05:52.605)
So in that field, obviously, you're going to bump up against Doug Wilson right away in classical circles and ACCS circles. And so I read a lot of his works. And then I went on to read things by Gene Veith and Chris Perrin and, you know, in the Stratford Caldecott, just lots and lots of good works all across the board. And then I was able to do my dissertation in my doctoral studies in

Soren Schwab (CLT) (05:57.62)
Okay.

Timothy (06:19.873)
spiritual formation specifically in classical Christian schools versus non-classical schools. At that point I was trying to figure out if I was really going to make the career jump from college athletics because I was doing well in that field to shifting over and making my career classical Christian education. So I was wanting to do my dissertation to see if it was really as good as it seemed to be cracked up to be. And so I was reading

Soren Schwab (CLT) (06:31.327)
Uh-huh.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (06:47.551)
Well, I-

Timothy (06:48.421)
than scholarly journals then, so it was fun.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (06:50.322)
Well, I guess it was, here we are, praise be to God that He guided you in that direction. So talk to us about then that transition from coaching to... I mean, when I've met you, you were head of school at a classical Christian school, what was that like?

Timothy (06:52.945)
It was. It was.

Timothy (07:05.561)
Yeah, and I was in my late thirties when I was still mid thirties, probably at that time when I was coaching at Penn State and my son, Boaz was just a newborn. He's my oldest. He's 20 years old now and I was holding them and I was looking at him. I was like, wow, I need to shift careers and do something for this next generation. So I thought, who's going to hire a wrestling coach? So I put myself on a track to get a master's in doctorate and we ended up actually homeschooling our kids.

for their first several years of their educational journey because the closest classical Christian school was three hours away, and we thought that'd be too long of a commute. So I paid my $25 to be a homeschool member of ACCS. I hung my little certificate they gave us for homeschool membership up, and we started our journey there before finally taking my first classical Christian job in Delaware at...

the school that's now known as Delaware Valley Classical School. And so I was principal for one year and PE teacher for K through 12. And it was fantastic. It was fantastic. A lot of the kids walked around that first couple weeks saying they thought they had the flu. And so after the nurse talked to them and investigating, turns out their stomachs were just sore from all the workouts I was putting them through in PE.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (08:27.878)
Hahaha!

Timothy (08:30.318)
So that was my first foray into that.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (08:35.81)
Not your typical combo, you know, head of school that still wants to be in the classroom a little bit. It's usually one of those omnibus classes, right? Your main letter is some moral philosophy, not necessarily K-12 PE. So that's a neat, neat combo.

Timothy (08:48.121)
It was great. Uh, I, it was fun to then, then go into teaching rhetoric because I'd taught rhetoric at the college level as well. And so, um, jumping into that and learning from folks like Steve Turley and Don Post and, and Steven Rippon and all these other gentlemen that were at that school, it was helpful. Um, just they talked about the awakening wonder and the moral imagination and.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (08:55.456)
Mm-hmm.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (09:07.82)
Yeah.

Timothy (09:13.501)
just diving into having these great conversations on classical pedagogy. It's just been wonderful. It's just been a true blessing in life to then have friends like you and others that are thinking deeply about Christ and the way we educate our children.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (09:27.79)
Well, and I'm sure for our listeners now, you know, we talk about, well, of course, we're cultivating, cultivating wonder. Of course, it's about wisdom. And but in the late 90s, early 2000s, I mean, that was not an of course. Right. I mean, that was completely outrageous to some extent. And well, I guess it's still a little countercultural, but even more so than it is now. And so I guess you were then in school leadership. And I don't want to say you were on an island. Right. But but ACCS wasn't as as.

larger it is now, right? There was not society for classical learning and other, you know, classical academic press, memorial press were there, but not serving schools to that extent. And so when were you first kind of exposed to ACCS or maybe were provided some of their services? Was that when you were in Delaware or did they come later?

Timothy (10:16.545)
That was when we were homeschooling in Ohio. Signed up to be a homeschool member and just trying to figure it out. So then we actually started attending the conferences that ACCS has, the Repairing the Ruins conferences, then around 2008, I believe, 2010. So it was good.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (10:20.599)
Okay.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (10:30.894)
Mm-hmm.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (10:43.659)
Yeah, yeah.

Timothy (10:44.557)
And to see the explosive growth, I mean, what are there now? Seven, eight, nine different Christian school associations and the amazing journey of CLT. There's this whole ecosystem that's really developing and it's just so wonderful to have this rich, thick, Christian paideia, this culture that's being passed on because one school can't do it alone. One association can't do it alone.

And so to see all these different people, it's like the body of Christ, all these different organizations filling different niches and roles and leaning into God's calling, it's just wonderful.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (11:24.842)
Yeah, well, amen, brother. I mean, obviously, ACC has had a huge impact on you to the point where now you are working with the Association of Classical Christian Schools. You are, you transitioned to being the vice president of member services and advancement. And I remember when that announcement was made. And I know we at CLT were really excited because we worked with you at Bayshore. And I know it was a big leap kind of to go out of kind of the K-12 setting that you've been in for so long and kind of take a leap of faith.

to join David Goodwin and the folks at ACCS. What was that transition like? And then as VP of member services and advancement, what are kind of some of the things that you're one, I guess, responsible for, but also, what are you excited about in that role?

Timothy (12:06.793)
Very good. Yeah, it was a neat transition. As you mentioned, I'd been head of school at a few different institutions and just love people, love the students. And so in some ways I was a little nervous to step away from that because of the way that I'm wired, I knew that being with people and is...

fulfilling and energizing to me. But now I get to be with people in a different way. And as you mentioned, Dave Goodwin, our president, he's been leading the ACCS for eight or nine years now and just doing a wonderful job. Wrote a bestselling book on the battle for the American mind. He's working on another book now, and he's really enjoyable to work with. So stepping into that, I quickly realized...

just the depth of the association and the breadth of the offering of schools that they all look so different from each other, yet they're unified by this association. So stepping in, trying to provide more and more opportunities and benefits for our members and just whatever they need, we want to be able to provide or find someone who can provide it for them. So we don't want to, we don't want to.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (13:20.075)
Thank you.

Timothy (13:23.637)
start a standardized test. There's already CLT doing that. And so partnering up and saying, hey everybody, use CLT from your grammar school all the way up through your graduation. It's gonna help advance your mission. And so I forgot a little bit of your question. Redirect me. I'm rambling here.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (13:38.77)
Oh, no, you're good. No, actually, this is a perfect, perfect transition. You know, supporting these schools, they're not feeling like they're on an island. And you mentioned earlier, and I want to pick your brain a little bit on that. You mentioned that you want to establish some kind of ecosystem, right? And I think that's something that I've admired about the work of ACCS is this, you know, we, it's always like good to great, right? There's Hedgehog, right? Like we have something that we're really good at.

And then we're going to point you to the kind of people that are doing things in this movement, right? That we don't do, whether we don't want to do them, we don't, we can't do them, we don't have the expertise to do them, but we vetting these organizations, right? They're our brothers. And then we point you to them. So can you speak a little bit, obviously you already mentioned CLT, but what are some other maybe facets of this ecosystem that you're thinking about for your schools?

Timothy (14:31.581)
So we've partnered with CLT and obviously your audience knows the work that you're doing, it's fantastic. We've also partnered with a financial institution, the America's Christian Credit Union. And so we're encouraging our schools to bank with them. They serve Christian schools and churches. And so you can do your personal banking, you can do your school banking. And

And then there's a school management platform, Class Reach, that you can work that's part of this growing ecosystem. And the fundraising association and governance training group, the Focus Group, with Brad Leyland, they're just wonderful. You and I were just at one of their events and ran a whole 5K together. So that was fun. But yeah, just figuring out a whole ecosystem. So as you mentioned,

Soren Schwab (CLT) (15:21.214)
boy still feeling it

Timothy (15:29.957)
We're not standing alone. What an amazing time to be alive, Soren. We're in a time where we can connect like this over video and phone and network together. We don't have to be an island. We can join together in iron sharpening iron, building each other up and just encouraging one another. There's enough negativity out there. We need to continue to focus on positive things and good things that are going on with each other and encouraging and building each other up. So...

just having that whole ecosystem. So we love, one more thing, we love in-person events. So we do national events, regional events, startup school events, leadership events, because we love the organic networking and the free sharing of documents that's prevalent in the ACCS.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (16:18.168)
Mm-hmm.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (16:23.946)
Yeah, and I can only echo that and a little shout out to, you mentioned earlier the Repairing the Ruins conference. So anyone that's interested in classical Christian education, maybe has heard about it, isn't quite sure, maybe is thinking about the Lord is calling them to maybe start a school or get connected. It is one of those conferences that's really transformative. And it's going to be in Atlanta this year, going back to Atlanta in June. I think it's the third week of June, but there's repa I believe it is.

can find some information, but CLT is definitely going to be there. I know you're going to be there. It's going to be a great, great event.

Timothy (17:00.377)
And that's for anybody. It's for parents, it's for educators, it's for people that are interested. So we have plenary speakers like Ben Carson and Albert Mueller and we have a economist coming this year, David Bonson. There's just lots of neat things going on. Voti Bakam, others that have been there. So yeah, that's always a fun event. It almost feels like a family reunion at this point.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (17:17.183)
Mm-hmm.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (17:27.366)
I know, and I always say, you know, I get paid to hang around my friends. It's pretty amazing. We're really blessed, Tim. Our roles are somewhat similar in that we have the privilege to almost on the daily speak with school leaders, right? Speak with schools. Obviously for you, it's classic Christian schools. I get to talk to some charter school folks and Catholic folks too. But we get to listen. We get to learn from them.

listen to their needs, their pain points. You mentioned earlier, there's so much negativity already, so let's focus on some of the goods. What are you seeing right now? Are some of the really, really encouraging positive trends in this movement that you can share with our audience?

Timothy (18:13.021)
Sure. So the Association of Classical Christian Schools started in 1993 with 10 schools banding together and saying, hey, let's, let's launch this. And we were having good steady growth, but in the past few years, we've almost doubled in size in the past three years. And a lot of it is because we've are, we had already established a good sound foundation, but also

things are going on and waking people up to the need for intentional Christian education that classical education provides. And so the growth is one positive thing. Also, the idea of micro schools, like small pod schools that people are doing in their neighborhoods, you don't need a lot of bells and whistles to pick up the great books and have conversations with the wise scholars of the past.

So that's an amazing thing. There's lots and lots. You're probably seeing this, brother. You're probably seeing what I'm seeing at the college level. A lot of institutions realize that some of the most well-formed graduates from high school are coming out of classical Christian schools. So they're offering now more liberal arts education, more classical Christian minors to try and attract these students. So we're seeing a lot of pivots toward us from the larger institutions,

Micro colleges popping up and little liberal arts colleges. I mean, Wyoming Catholic's been going for a long time New st. Andrews is uh is one of our partner ministries as well this year and they my son is a freshman there Brother, he was looking at that school in hillsdale as his final two and it was the right fit for him That that school is amazing. So lots of lots of great little colleges, uh hitting their stride as well

Soren Schwab (CLT) (19:46.219)
Yeah.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (20:04.522)
Yeah, I mean, it's it is fascinating. And I just a couple of days ago, I recorded with Jeremy. We do like a little segment that we call Office Hours with Jeremy Tate. We're just going to pick his brain. And and one of the stories we talked about was Benedictine College on the Catholic side, starting two masters in classical education. Before we started recording, we talked about our friend Bob Ingram and the folks at RTS and their masters in reformed classical education. And this is happening left and right. And of course, it's a.

It's meeting the demand, right? But it's also looking ahead. What are some of the needs in the movement? And I think we can agree both, right? That leadership, right? Obviously, we need teachers that have a passion for Christ and for the great books, but also that new leaders, fresh leaders that can meet some of that demand. Are you concerned at all by this rapid growth or do you feel like this is gonna scale really, really well and kind of keep the...

the level of excellence that we've seen over the last few decades.

Timothy (21:07.241)
I enjoy growth and building, but at the same time, I'm always a little skeptical of rapid growth or maybe not skeptical, but cautious. I do think there's a lot of inherent dangers right now because of the popularity of classical Christian education.

There's a temptation for a lot of folks to slap that label on what they're doing and get it close or do a version of it or think it's only curriculum and not the depth of formation. So yeah, we need to be cautious and continue to drill down in. I mean, we're on an archaeological dig here. Soren, we're trying to recover.

a couple thousand years of education that we lost in the past hundred years. And so we're only an inch or two down into our archaeological dig. We need to remain humble and not think that we've arrived just because there's a little popularity to what we're doing. It's that's the opposite of what we're doing. We're trying to drive deeper down into reading Hugh of Saint Victor and all these different other folks that are that are helping us understand this classical education was so formative.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (22:03.48)
You're sure?

Timothy (22:22.085)
for thousands of years. And so, yeah, I'm a little cautious, but hopefully we can drill down and drive even deeper into this Christian paideia and formation through the classics.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (22:24.491)
Mm-hmm.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (22:33.91)
You know, Tim, what's really impressed me, really, especially since COVID, I think it's fair to say that a lot of folks that are supporters of class Christian education, well, one, they're Christian, two, they are not all of them, but tend to be on the conservative side. I mean, it's conserving our heritage.

conservative Christian folks don't necessarily have the reputation, per se, of being the most innovative. Sometimes it's actually the opposite, where we're afraid of, or we don't want any change. I feel like, and correct me if I'm off here, but that the last five years, especially in this movement with this group of humans, the level of innovation...

the level of nimbleness, right? And like you mentioned, hybrid schools, micro schools, just finding ways to spread the good news, so to speak. I was positively shocked by that. And that kind of keeps me hopeful, right? That this is gonna, and then you have organizations like ACCS and Herzog Foundation that is like, oh my goodness, we're seeing this need here. We gotta do everything we can. And we're gonna hire a Tim Dernan and a Quinton Johnson.

a Devon O'Donnell because we need to meet this demand. So I am cautiously optimistic maybe, which Germans are not known for, but I do think that we're going to find a way. One question I have for you in that though, and that to me is for my caution kind of comes in. I think you're right in that we have to be careful, right? And that sometimes, and I see that with some classical charter schools too, where

There's just almost like a marketing, just like, oh, we're going to call it classical and it's conveying something to families. And then you actually look and well, there's no Latin, there's no great books. There's really this is not the real deal. At the same time, I'm also sometimes well, I'm a little worried about kind of the being too trying to be too pure, as in, you know, oh, you're not exactly the kind of classical Christian school that I would want.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (24:45.246)
we can be a little dismissive maybe. And so how do you balance that, right? You want to uphold the highest standard, right, of classical education, but you also don't wanna be too dismissive of folks that are really trying and maybe are missing the mark a little bit. What are your thoughts on that?

Timothy (24:58.985)
Sure, I love that. That's always the tension in organizations and even in our own lives, how to hold firm to convictions that we have, yet be generous in understanding and that others maybe haven't advanced to the same place that you are, or the humility that we need to... It's a lot of hubris to think that we...

Soren Schwab (CLT) (25:09.994)
Mm-hmm.

Timothy (25:27.181)
in any ways have things perfect or pure. One of my favorite theologians, R.C. Sproul, he once was on a stage with several folks, MacArthur and I think maybe at the time it was Devers and then Lutheran, he said, look, we're all probably 80% right on our theology. We just don't know which parts we're 20% off on. And I think we need that attitude in classical education to...

to hold firm so we at ACCS, we want to conserve the tradition and we want to have standards of excellence all for Christ and his kingdom. Those are our three mantras. And so there's a broad range of schools in our association and that makes some people nervous. And for me, I think if we're unified in a lot of core things, we can have that innovation and drive down and look to others.

without being too broad or watered down. So there's always that tension.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (26:27.698)
Yeah, no, I love that. There is, and that's okay. And I think one of the pieces too that you mentioned earlier was just access, right? Where you didn't have access to a classical Christian school. And so we're starting to meet that. We're starting to... not everyone obviously has a class Christian school in their neighborhood, but I mean, folks are moving, right? Like they're uprooting their families to be close to one of these ACCS schools. I mean, it is...

absolutely fascinating. If a family is listening to this and they want to maybe see where some of these classical Christian schools are, where can they find kind of, is there a list, a map of classical Christian schools and how to get connected?

Timothy (27:11.333)
Yeah, if you go to clas that's the main website for the Association of Classical Christian Schools. And you can find a map there that will show all the schools and you can sort it by accredited schools. We have over 60 accredited schools. We have nearly 550 total schools in our American membership and maybe 30 or 40 now outside of America.

You can find startup schools. You can find schools that are transitioning. A lot of schools now, I think a dozen or more are transitioning from a non-classical Christian association over to ACCS. So go to that map at clas and you can find a school that is near you or one that you can move to. Or if there's not one near you, you can start one. And we have startup programs. It's only $150 to buy our startup kit.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (28:01.012)
Ha ha!

Timothy (28:05.677)
and you could be a member for a year and a half with that. And so we're really just trying to make things super accessible. And then check out a video, Geronimo Amen, that's on our website too. It's about all these pioneers that just jumped in and kind of just jumped off the cliff and yelled, Geronimo, here we go. We're gonna do this and figure it out along the way.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (28:27.286)
Amazing, amazing Tim. Well, this has been has been delightful. Of course, we have one last question the most difficult of them all for all of us book nerds but if you can let our audience know about but one book or one text that has been really impactful in your own life and why

Timothy (28:44.041)
Hmm, that's a good question. It might be a little bit linked to personal relationship, but when I was in early high school, ninth, 10th grade, my dad every Monday morning would get up early and have breakfast with me, and he took me through Calvin's Institutes of Christian Religion. So that was meaningful to be with my dad at that time, but also it just gave me a...

a rich and deep text, not an easy text to go through, but Calvin's Institutes, you know, revealing my reformed and Puritan heritage here, but it's impactful. It impacted a lot of books and texts and thinking after that, but that's impactful for me. And then just a fun one, I would encourage folks.

to dive into the Russian authors. I've really, really loved the Russian authors lately. Just was reminded of the idiot by Dostoevsky that I read recently. So, but that's it. That's what I got.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (29:47.637)
Mm-hmm.

Soren Schwab (CLT) (29:54.47)
Fantastic, fantastic. Those are great recommendations, great recommendations. Thank you, Tim, so much. Again, we're here with Dr. Timothy Dernan, who is the vice president over at the Association of Classical Christian Schools. Tim, you are an inspiration to so many and a good friend of CLT's. I really appreciate your joining us on Anchor today.

Timothy (30:14.785)
Yes, sir. Thank you for what you're doing, Soren. Such a pleasure and honor to be on here.