Ep. 76 - Lessons Learned from Austin Kleon

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Hi, welcome to this episode of feature filmmaker and. Thanks for joining us. Yeah today, we're going to do one of our lessons learned series where we share. Some of our. Our favorite takeaways from courses and books and today's episode, we want to focus on Austin Kleon. So Austin Kleon, interestingly, I feel like has. Come under some scrutiny for his books, because people are like, oh, they're like blog posts, you know, cause they're really artsy. And he includes a lot of his own art in there, but his art is actually really cool. I think if you really give the whole thing a good read the stuff he says is it has weight to it. It has heft and he's lived through it. He is an artist. He is an independent artist. And some of these things are just as opinions. And some of these things I think are just really, really. Valuable. Insights and knowledge in his books, but Ana. It has been a long time fan of Austin Kleon in south. She just did a really quick read through of all three of his books. Books steal like an artist show. Show your work. And keep going. So. So she's done that read through. I have not revisited those. But I do plan on eventually reading his other books. And I really love to steal like an artist. And, So I'll be asking you some questions and chiming in with whatever I can recall. But luckily I do find myself reading. Random chapters out of his books here and there. I've read some out loud over the last. Yeah. She'll read some out loud to me or I'll talk to her about it and she'll summarize stuff. And so we are Sort of casual disciples of Austin Kleon, but being a casual disciples, like a big deal. That's a pretty big fan. As I re-read, it I've realized how much. The ideas he shared have influenced everything that I'm doing. And so much of it. I remember learning for the first time when I read his books and now it's become a part of my life and part of who I am and how I see the world. So. So the books are really short, which is why I could read all three in a week. But they're very dense in that. Everything in there is that there for a reason. He's taken. A lot and boiled it down to the main, really useful points. And I, I appreciate that. I think it's very respectful of my time. But it actually is very valuable. Yeah. I agree. So. Ana talk to me about what. The series is for anyone who hasn't ever heard of Austin Kleon. So he actually has, his first book is blackout poems and he, I think did a presentation on creativity somewhere and just created a slideshow, talking about these creative points and. It did really well. And. Someone talked him into doing a book. I don't really know the whole backstory. I can't remember it super well, but yeah, I think he, he put his presentation into slides and started posting them onto a blog and it went viral. And so he. He's got a book offer somehow. And, and kind of got thrown into that world. And then his first book was a major New York times bestseller. Well, his first book was the blackout poem. I mean his book as a result of that. And it's still like an artist. Yeah. We're still like an artist is the main one. And then he did write two follow up books that are really good as well. He has a great email list. I like his email newsletter. He's always writing and sharing things that he's interested in. So that's something worth checking out. So, but like, what is steal like an artist? Right. So we use this in our analysis of films. We always talk about in our discussions. What do you want to steal? What do you want to take from this film as a filmmaker? And so steal like an artist. His first book is really about. Your influences and how you are in many ways, the sum total of all of your influences and all the things that you like. And you're that common denominator in all of it. It. Helped me to figure out. Who are my influences and where were they influenced and how do I steal from them? How do I actually really take what they have to offer and re reconstruct it, or combine it with all these other things that I like to make something that. Is my own. But poles from the stuff that I love already. So he really helps you with that process. And I feel like it applies to so many different disciplines, but definitely for me as a filmmaker, it's been extremely helpful. Yeah. So. What about the book? Show your work? How is that different from steal? Like an artist? I mean, show your work is about the follow-up question. He got a lot from stealing, like an artist, which is how do you get discovered? How do you get out there? And. He talks about the importance of. Not just creating great work, but actually putting it somewhere where someone can find it and doing that on a regular basis. And it doesn't mean that you have to have a finished film every day because that's not going to happen. Right. But you could just put out little pieces of your process, little glimpses into what you're doing and how there's this whole community that can form of artists. As we see each other's work and each other's influences and we share with each other. And then that's really one of the best ways to be creative is in a group format where we can bounce ideas off of each other. And, see people who think differently than you do. And bounce, your ideas off of those different opinions. Yeah. So he calls it 10 ways to share your creativity and get discovered. Steal like an artist is 10 things. Nobody told you about being creative and keep going is 10 ways to stay creative in good times and bad. Yeah. How to kind of beat writer's block and such. We've talked a little bit about with Hans Zimmer. How he said, I don't get writer's block because I just write a few notes every day. Like I always stay in it, which is cool. Well, I want to, Mention in regards to show your work, you know, that was something you and I talked about, which was the one common denominator that we find in artists, especially filmmakers who make it, is that they make stuff and they share stuff. And they're always making stuff and sharing stuff and making stuff and sharing stuff. And I think David Sandberg is a really interesting example of that, which was just that he was constantly just sharing. The work that he was making. And. Like eventually someone cared, you know, eventually people start to go, oh, this person's really talented. And like they're putting work out there and it's, it doesn't even necessarily have to explode in any crazy way. But. So I really appreciate that. And I think that I've, I've learned a lot from, from Cleveland's thoughts, on those notes as well. Can you think of any major takeaways from maybe since we usually do about three takeaways each, can you think of one from each book? I kind of was trying to bookmark and find maybe my favorite takeaways from each one, which is really, it's hard to do with like a best hits album, you know? It's really hard for me because I actually. Actually feel like this. Book has, especially the first one steal, like an artist. Has really changed my life in the way that I work and I can't recommend it enough. Every single chapter is really good, but this time, the one that stood out to me is maybe a little different than the ones that. I have in the past, but this time has chapter be boring. Stood out to me. He says be boring. It's the only way to get work done. So he kind of talks about. Taking care of yourself, he always has these amazing quotes from different people. I don't actually know who this is. Do you know? Oh, yeah. I don't know who that is either, but he says be regular and orderly in your life so that you may be violent and original in your work. And so he talks about very practical things, staying out of debt, keeping your day job. Getting yourself, a calendar, keeping a log book of what you do, Mary. Well, there's a whole section on not just finding your life partner, but who you do business with, who you choose to be around those relationships. Um, So. Yeah. Why do you love that one? Oh, I don't know. I think it's, it's also just something I've learned, I think is that like, You don't. You know, w he says something about like being like the drug addicted crazy. Insane artist who never sleeps and sleeps all day, but stays up all night. And. Has like. You know, crazy love affairs and you know, this whole idea of how crazy. The artist life is the dark brooding, whatever he's like. Those people would come and go and the dying of flash and they, some people leave legacies and some people just don't and it's not really actually what makes you creative? And so taking care of yourself and having a really long career, especially in feature filmmaking. Like maybe an art, like painting or music or something you can do that. You can live the rockstar lifestyle and have a huge smash career in dire when you're 40 and people will remember you forever. But in movies, I don't think, I don't think it's really possible movies. People do their best work when they're in their fifties, sixties and seventies. That's like almost all these guys. They get going. They might have some, almost big things happen in their thirties and forties. And then. A lot of these directors of feature films, it's a long game. It's a long game you're playing. And so you got to take care of yourself, but yeah, for me still like an artist, I think the biggest takeaway from that book was, I won't have much to say about the other books, unfortunately, but the biggest one for steal, like an artist for me was, He talks about analog. And, and that is. It's not as hipster as it sounds to say that it's really important to work analog. And I've always kind of felt romantic about this idea when I hear people talk about it. But part of me has been like, yeah, it'd be practical. Come on, computers are great. And they're really fast. And like, I can type faster than I can write with my hands. And I don't really, you know, if it's actually that effective to be analog all the time. And he doesn't say all the time, he has two desks. He says he has an analog desk and a. Sort of digital desk, right. Whereas computer and everything are, but the analog desk, the idea is that it's got paper pens. You know, Rulers. And it's like a drafting table almost. And there's nothing there that can distract him in terms of like notifying him or, or buzzing at him, or even just saying, Hey, you could Google something right now. And you have access to everything, all the things right now. And at the same time, you know, it's like, and so. I've been feeling more and more over the last year or two of my life that it is hard to be really, really creative while staring in front of. A big monitor, a big screen. It's just hard because there's just so much pulling at you with that screen. Lots of news and articles and emails and notifications and distractions. And so. I actually did buy about six months ago an analog desk, and I haven't bought my typewriter yet. I'm still trying to justify that purchase. But I want to get a good one so that it's not really, really hard to use. So Google, Tom Hanks, his advice on typewriters, I found it actually really helpful in terms of like, I have no idea where to start. So Tom Hanks is a big typewriter guy and he's used every typewriter on the planet. I've used zero typewriters on the planet. So I defer to his opinion, but, I only super recently have actually started to use it more. So I'd use it for reading every now and then like studying in the mornings. But, I didn't use it to get a lot of work done, like my analog desk. And I'm actually producing a commercial right now. And I've been really struggling. To just move forward on it because it's such a big process. There's a lot of overwhelm to it. And so the other day I just, I sat down, I got onto studio binder where I was doing a lot of the prep work. I printed the script. I printed the. The breakdowns and some of the D the reports and, I'm planning on printing some more things. Like schedules and such once those are a little more refined. And then, I put them all whole punched in a binder and I put a bunch of blank paper in that binder and I created tabs. Tabs. And I created a tab for storyboards. And I've been working at that desk. Feverously on storyboards. And then I have another folder for a different project that I'm working on, that I'm just working on by hand right now. That's a script. And then I have another project and I created a folder for that. And I'm starting to get really excited about paper and pens and And I used to draw a lot because I used to be in a pre animation major before I switched to film. And so I'm drawing a lot now because I'm storyboarding this commercial. I'm realizing how different and yet exciting and valuable storyboarding is compared. To just shortlisting all by itself because it's, it's forcing me to be more detailed in my visualization. And it's helping me draw better, which it's actually a little better than stick for years. I think. Anyway, this, this has been a lot of it was spurred because we were just rereading that section of steel, like an artist where he talks about why analog is so much more valuable. And I've found that my creative energy. Is more intense, and I feel more excited about my work and it's actually energizing me. It's not exhausting me. So. So, I don't know. That is probably like everything I I have to say about Austin Kleon today, because I don't have a lot to say about the other word, the. The other books, but man, that one is big for me. I can't, and that's just, that's like two pages of his book and it's, it's having a big impact on my day-to-day life. And my eight hour work day this week. Alone. So. That just goes to show, he has a whole book of that kind of stuff. Like. Yeah. He even talks about like flow and stock and how he reads a lot and stuff and all of those things eventually become sometimes a post and then a blog and then a chapter in his book. And it just gets like whittled down until it's just really. Concentrated. And it really is. I feel like every single chapter. Is life changing, but, I do feel like the general takeaway. Whenever I read his books is I do want to be more playful in my work. It becomes fun again, and it becomes kind of arts and crafts. See, and I start to think outside the box. Yeah. I feel more creative when I read his book about creativity and. Very rarely do I read a book that's just about creativity. Usually it's specific to film or some specific topic, but creativity is kind of broad and yet it's, it really does. And you said arts and crafts, which really goes back to that analog thing, which one of my favorite people to collaborate with in film school was a great filmmaker named Howie Burbidge. And whenever I would DP for him on his projects that he was, he was doing. We'd flip back and forth. He was like, Pulling. Crazy ski masks and taping them and spray painting them and appealing the tape off. And then, you know, Doing all sorts of weird stuff with food and. He was flipping camera's upside down and it was just so liberating it wasn't okay. We've got a script and we're going to shoot coverage and you know, here and there and over the shoulder and. And it starts to feel like you're shooting weddings, right? You're like, okay, I know the drill. This is what I do with every single thing I get paid to do. I just shoot coverage. He didn't think that way he thought so physically. So I feel like storyboarding is just that it's arts and crafts, it's paper and pens and markers. And, and then. It makes me think in terms of art and props and costume and things, I can put my hands on, which puts the life back into filmmaking and it makes it less like sad. Which is like, Electronic cameras and electronic computers and electronic lights. And it's like, this is all just so digital and. It makes me feel like I'm not actually. Having a physical Interaction with the real world, which just makes me feel like I'm living a virtual existence. Like nothing I'm doing is real. I'm not, I don't think of it that way. It just seems to feel that way. And so, it's made me get more aggressive with how I build camera rigs and. Not getting scared to like unscrew things and pull things apart and put them back together. It's it's put a lot of vibrance. That, that approach. Yeah, I guess the other takeaway that I have when I, whenever I read his books is just this sense of freedom. And I really think that this approach to. Stealing from your influences and letting that inform your work and learning from them. He talks about how copying. Is a really great way to learn and we're incapable of making a perfect copy. And he talks about, you know, plagiarism and not doing that. Giving credit where it's due. But. Being able to use the work that other people do that you love to school yourself. And that makes it really fun because it's work that I love already. and things that I love to do. Already. And there's just sort of this feeling of like permission to. To mix and match things together and make something new. And that that's not really stealing in an inappropriate way. If you're like, I'm going to steal. This little technique and this other shot from someone's film and just put it all together in this new way. And he has these great quotes, one from mark Twain, who says, you know, It's better to use something than to leave it neglected. You know something good. That's been left behind and Pablo Picasso, who said art is theft. And a lot of great artists who talk about how they are influenced by other people who was it? Who said he quoted someone? I don't remember who it was that said, Everything that can be said, has been said since no one was listening, it needs to be said again. Yes. And I feel like people will just sort of. They're just dog on these other people when they can see the references. And like, for example, Lala land. We all know that it's basically a remake of umbrellas of Cherbourg. But how many Americans have actually seen umbrellas of Cherbourg? In fact, how many people outside of France have actually seen umbrellas of Cherbourg? Admittedly, a lot of people in the film community. But That doesn't mean that 98% of people who saw Lala land probably haven't seen a bros or share board. And in addition to that, Lala land has way more influences than just that one movie. And the story itself is significantly different. Like it's very similar, but it's significantly different. And so, Yeah, you can definitely see it. It's not subtle. And they didn't lie. Like in the director's commentary damages, all basically said. We wish we could have been the ones to make umbrellas of Cherbourg. So we basically just tried to make that movie. Yeah. But we made it, of course. Take place in 2016 and basically be. Like personal to us. And they also were influenced by all their other favorite movies. Like. Cinderella and about. 50 other musicals that you can kind of break down if you're watching the film carefully. And so, Anyway. Yeah, I can't find that exact quote, but I'm finding a lot of other good ones. There's David Bowie saying the only art I'll ever study is stuff that I can steal from. And then Gary painter says, if you have one person you're influenced by, everyone will say, you're the next, whoever. But if you rip off a hundred people, everyone will say you're so original. Yeah, Francis Ford Coppola saying, we want you to take from us. We want you at first to steal from us because you can't steal. You'll put your own voice in it. And that's how you find your voice. Someday. Someone will steal from you. Well, there's a lot of gray and this isn't in his book, but it reminds me of the, masterclass I, I took from Billy Collins. The poet. Who said that your voice, you find it on the, on the shelves of the library. Yeah. You don't find it deep down inside yourself. Right? In fact people who try and do it that way are derivative. And they say things without even realize they've already been said, But the people who are saying things and they know. That it's already. a conversation that's happening in the great, you I was like guys space, whatever. They've read everything that's been said about those things. And so they are able to. Sort of combine and actualize and contemporary eyes. Contemporaries, is that a word? Anyway. They're able to combine it all. And then it naturally is going to have their own perspective on it. But with the added support of everything that has been said, Do you see how much more of a voice you have when you've actually absorbed? What's been said as opposed to ignored it. Or stayed ignorant of. I mean, it goes back to this idea that I've shared before. I love this idea of there's just a great conversation that's been going on since the beginning of time. And if we're unaware of the conversation and we just button and try to say something. We look kind of dumb. Like if you show up at a party and you're just like, oh yeah, blah, blah, blah. And you have no idea what they're just talking about or you think you do. But they already said that. They've been covering the topic for 30 minutes and you're just jumping in. Yeah, so. Part of being a great conversationalist in the great conversation is listening and reading and seeing what other people have done. And then you can add your voice and. And, agree with the things that you agree with and share them in your own way. So I feel like that just. It opens up my mind in a way where the four, if I'm trying to be original and be different than everybody else, there's a scarcity about that. Like, oh, I can't do anything that anyone else has ever done. And everyone's done everything under the sun. So What am I going to do? But if I think about it, like I can combine all these things. That other people have done that I love. And as long as I'm stealing from lots of people, It is originality. It becomes something new. It becomes a product of me who likes all of these different things. And no one else is just like me, who likes all of the same things. I like. And has seen all the same things I've seen or heard all the things I've heard. that creates this abundance. Suddenly everything is. Material that I can use. And. It just feels like there's endless opportunity and endless ideas that can come from that. Yeah. You know, what's interesting though, is that I feel. That. But at the end of the day, great art, especially movies and literature that were influenced by. It's not just meant for us to kind of chew it up and digest it into our own work. It's ultimately designed to be made and consumed. As a support system for life in Stephen King's words. And, and so on the one hand, yeah, we want to steal like an artist, but remembering why we're artists and why we love it in the first place is because art can be so nourishing. You know, this is me just interjecting thoughts, by the way, this is actually in his book. I was just going to open up to it. The one that I didn't read. Yeah. I'm saying something that's already been said, and I didn't even realize it. I didn't read the book. Yeah, he does a whole chapter where he talks about, or maybe it's a section in a chapter. Not sure where exactly it is, but he talks about this. Which book is it in? This one, the, sorry, you can't see the book I'm holding. It's in keep going. I have my books in front of me. So he talks about. Basically the same thing, Stephen King did. I don't know if he realized that he was pretty much quoting Stephen King when he said. Art is for life, not the other way around. Huh. Yeah, that's almost exactly what Stephen King says. His book on writing. And so he talks about, and there's a quote here from Ben. Sean, however, glorious. The history of art, the history of artists is quite another matter. And just this idea that there are all kinds of people who make great art, but that doesn't mean that they're great people and. Art is supposed to make our lives better. It's it shouldn't be creating a net negative in the world and he calls this is called slay, the art monsters. That's what it's called. He says, take a quick dip into any one of the thousands of years of art history. And you'll find that no, actually plenty of great art was made by jerks, creeps, vampires, perverts, and worse. All of whom. Left a trail of victims in their wake. So that's kind of hard to grapple with, but. We can. Decide to be good people and make good art. And I do feel like Austin Kleon is a good example of this because he really, I get the sense that he's a. A person who has integrity. He's a virus. Poet. He's not just a writer. Like he. Just to say, like he's an artist. He, he makes blackout poems, which if you don't know what they are, just look up Austin Clay on blackout poems. And they're really cool. Actually. I think some of them are pretty neat. And they do when you look at them and you understand what they are. Which is basically like words stolen from an already written article, but everything else is blacked out until it says exactly what he wants. Feels in line with a lot of his sort of theories on art. Anyway. Which is this sort of creative recontextualization that he does by hand and attraction, boiling things down. Yeah, exactly. The amount of context. Yeah, yeah. Reduction it's it's very interesting. And so, that said, yeah, he, he, he understands that he's an artist, but he's also kind of become a. A voice and a teacher through these books. but you do. Yeah. I get the same sense saying that. This is a person who's he's stomping and. Wanting to make art sustainable and life good. And have a family and write books, you know? Yeah. So this actually brings me to one of the chapters. I loved and keep going. I think one of my biggest takeaways this time reading it was this chapter on make gifts. And he talks about this merge between art and business. That it's very difficult to combine. And how, if you try to turn everything you do into something that makes money. Then you start to lose the passion for it. Like sometimes that's the best way to stop loving something is to turn it into a job and. Make the stakes really high where your family and your livelihood depend on it. It has to make money. It's not just like, oh, it might it's or it could it's has to, yeah. That's really interesting. And this little blackout poem, I wish he could see it, but he has this poem where he's, you know, again, blacked out all the words except for these. And it says after he started to make money, the work was poor. And so he talks about, instead of trying to make money, try to make gifts. Give something to the people you love. And he says of all the people who like your work, there's only going to be a few whose opinions actually matter to you in the end. Anyway. So he said, just make gifts for them. And I think if I'm making something for someone else. It just feels different. It. It feels more joyful for me to feel like I'm serving. And. Doing something that I love for someone else. Is just a good place for my Headspace to be, I really. I love that. And, and, you know, That really hearkens to what we've learned from Brooke Castillo, which is if you do want to make money. The real number one most important thing is to just put value into the world. And when you think of it that way, like I'm going to create great art. I'm going to give gifts. I'm going to give something to myself and to others, and it's going to, it's going to help everybody. And yeah, it might make money, but I'm just going to do whatever I want to do and not be scared of what people think and not think about is this sellable or likable and just put it out there. You've actually. Actually put value into the world. Benefit by the most, you know, it's like, I'm going to create something really. Good. And often, you know, Bernay brown talks about how, the only way we can truly love people and be the kindest thing is the truth, I think is what she says. Yeah. And so. this idea of like, as an artist, the most good you can do in the world is just. Be as honest and truthful as you can. And you don't. That doesn't mean we're right. Like my opinion, what's most true to me. Isn't always right. But at least I'm being honest and all learn and grow and people will learn and grow. And I feel like the more we finished this film that we're making about. Parenthood. And, you know, we started it with this question, which is, why do people have kids? Why do we do this? Why is it worth it? What is the value of, why do we have kids? And I think we've worked through it. Our family almost fell apart because of it. And then at the end, we're figuring it out. And I actually feel like our family is figuring a lot of things out too. And, and so. In some ways, being really honest, even about things we didn't necessarily feel like we had answers to. Or we didn't feel super good about, you know, it's like, I didn't feel like. Yeah, I'm the best parent in the world. I'm just going to teach everyone how to be the best parent. Yeah. That was not how I felt going into it. I felt like I just need to explore this. And I think other people might benefit from exploring this with us. And movie's not been released. So I have no idea. Maybe everyone. Leave it feeling like worst parents, but we at least. I feel like better parents after finishing this film. Definitely after finishing this film while we were making the film, we were the worst parents, but, don't put your kids in a movie ever, ever, ever. That's my other thing that I learned. And now that I know it, I'm a better parent. So anyway, well, I do think art can be an exploration and there's a part in one of his books where he talks about Montessori and how Maria Montessori said work. Child's work is play or work, plays a child's work. She talked about, if you watch a child, when they play, like they are working, like they're concentrated, they scrunched their faces up. They really try. If things mess up, they throw a big tantrum. It's not all just light and playful. Like they're really into what they're doing. And. And our work can also be. Play and exploration and figuring out. So what you're saying is that as you grow up, you can go out into the world and write software or build buildings or grow food. And if you haven't grown up yet, you go make movies because you need more play. Well, anything can be play. I think it's just a state of mind. But going back really quick to this gifts thing. I, I did want to share one more part of this. I'll just read. This cause I love it. He says, you never know when a gift made for a single person will turn into a gift for the whole world. Consider how many best selling best selling stories began? Their life is bedtime stories for specific children. I was just thinking about this the other day. A mill made up Winnie the Pooh for his son, Christopher, Robin mill. Astrid Bedridden daughter. Karen asked her to tell a story about some girl named Pippi Longstocking, CS Lewis convinced J R R Tolkien to turn the fantastical stories. He told his children into the Hobbit. The list goes on and on. Making gifts puts us in touch with our gifts. huh. That's good stuff. Yep. So I just think this is true, whether you're doing it for yourself or someone else you love or both. I think when you make something that's really. Something that you truly love you Truly feel that's honest and. And, or for someone that you truly love then there will be other people who love that too. And other people who want to explore and discuss that thing too. And so I think as long as you have that integrity, The rest will work out. Yeah, well, and I'm also just reminded of how much great work comes from people trying to communicate profound ideas to children. Yeah. And that list is. You know, sort of a list of evidence for that, that idea. I feel like sometimes as adults, we get so pretentious and so over complicated. But when we're trying to explain something that's meaningful. And maybe kind of complicated to a child, it really forces us to simplify it. And I can't tell you how many times I've learned. And from my own mouth. As I've had to try and say, oh, Oh, here's an abstract concept. And then I have to explain to my five-year-old. And I'll say something and I'll go, oh, That that simplifies it in a way that I've never. Been able to understand it before. And there's a simplicity on the other side of complexity that we often find when we are trying to explain. The complex, simply to a child. And so it's a great exercise that makes me want to make more. I've always wanted to make more, but it makes me even more want to make more content, not just content, but feature films. Art in general. For children, but yeah. If in doubt, that might be a good way to boost. Some creativity is, think about. How would I. Tell a story that I really care about that I think is worthy of. Artistic exploration. To someone who's five years old. It also reminds me of something else he said, which is he talks about productive, procrastination, and how the things that you're doing when you're procrastinating, the stuff that you quote unquote should be doing is sometimes like your best work are really the things you should do your whole life. And these are examples where it's authors, who were telling stories to their children, and then, made that into their work. But there's also this balance of like the things you love to do and not all of them have to have market value. And he talks about. The dangers of that too. Like don't convert everything you do. And to trying to make money. But have. I have things that are hobbies. he talks about how hobbies used to be more common and now. Whenever someone has a talent. They'll say, you're say you're great at baking cakes, they'll say, oh, you should start a bakery. Yeah. Or you make a gift that's really creative and they say, oh, you should do an Etsy shop. And I have to say I'm guilty of this because I feel like even our own children, I'm like, you could make money doing this. And it's like, We have to remember that this is what's ruined universities, is that everyone's decided that no one should go to universities because the ROI isn't, isn't very good. As if we all went to universities just to get an ROI, but that literally is. Is the predominant totally dominant. Mindset now about education is can you get paid for what you're learning? When really learning used to have intrinsic value and still does, but we've forgotten that. And so just like learning art is just an exercise in learning. That's what we're doing when we're creating is we're, we're exploring the unknown, which is inevitable growth and learning. And so. It has its own value, which sometimes. It will be monetized, but it doesn't. I have to, and it certainly doesn't have its own value if it's created specifically for monetization. Well, and often the things that are most valuable can not be bought and they can not be measured with any amount of money. And so we, we really shouldn't let those things. Go to the wayside, or. Have them lose the value that they provide in there. Giving us, satisfaction and joy in our life. And substitute that for money and try to make. Everything money and equate money with that joy or satisfaction, which it isn't. But once again, ironically, if you want to have a career meaning make money. Making films. This is one of the reasons I don't think that people should overfund their first features because then it has to make money. Right? you just spent a million dollars on a movie that's, you know, someone gave you that money, unless if you've got the money in your own back pocket. Great. Do it. I mean, I don't even know how you're. I'm listening to this. Just go make a movie, but, but like, if you need to go raise some funds. If you raise. You know, 10. 1020 50. Thousand. As long as it's coming from investors that are comfortable losing that money. You shouldn't feel too much pressure to make all that money back. Now, you should do everything in your power to help that happen. But, but you should also make sure that like, You you've got to do it on your first film. You'll never do it. You know, when you've got a hundred million dollars, you're sure not, you know, if you can't do it with 20,000 and just say, I'm going to make something that's true and honest and you know, I'm going to take risks. That's what leads to really great art movies that are successful. And if you, if you can't take risks and be honest, Through your art. While you're. Really doing it for passion and not getting paid a ton of money or anything. You're sure. Going to have a hard time with it. Once you do have a bunch of money, you know, you're really going to struggle because you'll just make a. I mean, there are movies that frankly make money that aren't any good and that's, there's lots of them, but Hollywood's good at that. I guess they can play a numbers game, but. There are also movies that. Are really good. That costs a lot of money that make a ton of money. And they're great. They're great art. And so. If you want to be that person you can pick right. Then I think that's just why. We feel so strongly that it's better to make a movie you can make now than to think about a movie you can't, you know? Yeah. And he says this in one of his chapters. I have a quote here from Jack White that he put in. Telling yourself you have all the time in the world, all the money in the world, all the colors in the palette. Anything you want that just kills creativity. And we've talked about how creativity is problem solving. So if you don't have any restrictions or problems to solve, you can't really be creative. And if menu, anxiety and creativity like is spurred by the obstacles we face, that force us to think differently than we've ever done before and solve in a way we'd never done before. He gives the example of Dr. Seuss writing the cat in the hat, and he wrote that in. Using only 236 different words. So his editor that him, he couldn't write a book with only 50 different words. And because of that bet, which he won, he produced green eggs and ham, which is one of the best-selling children's books of all time. If you haven't read it, you should check it out. But. Again, it's just another example of this. Creativity. And I love that. He's like do your passions and don't exclude anything. What you do makes you unique and interesting. You don't have to be all one thing, all one brand, all you're a person you have diverse interests and all of those influence everything else. Just like. Terrence Malick was a philosopher. And, who else? Let's see. Who did a. Who's the doctor. George Miller. George Miller was an MD before he was a filmmaker, which go watch Lorenzo's oil and you'll say, go figure, but you'll also say. Hallelujah. And then there's Chris Nolan. Who's a mathematician. And you just see all these filmmakers and you can see. Jonathan Nolan was the one who got a degree in physics, theoretical physics to write the script for interstellar. I don't know if Chris Nolan is necessarily a mathematician, but. He's interested in, clearly interested in Escher and math and puzzles and. I don't know, being smart. But the point is these other interests only add to their work. They only make it better because of that. And I actually made a list when I was reading through this book this time. And. Wrote down, what do I like to do? And I procrastinate and I just made this big list of things I like to do. And. Realized, you know, there's a lot of things on there that I, I could do more of. And. And just for fun, I don't need to try to make them into a career, but I can just find spaces in my life for those things. And you can put it into your filmmaking to make your film more playful. It's like, oh, I'm sort of filmmaking right now, but it's really like, I'm just using it as a way to play. That's good. That's good because that'll make your films. Surprising and ex you know, exciting. Yeah. It's like why I got into film in the first place I was in a journalism class and had really little to do with the camera, besides that it was something that gave me. An excuse to ask people personal questions you have, the camera was permission. Yeah. And so that's where I first fell in love with it. And I've been thinking I should just do that again. Make a documentary and ask my friends personal questions. But you'll have many people who love you outside of town and lots of people who hate you inside of town. Sarah secrets. I have no more friends anymore. And then we'll just move. Yeah, but. We should probably wrap up this episode, but. We have not learned. The art, the Austin Kleon has of being succinct. But we hope you've, learned a lot and at the very least felt convinced to read the book that would be finished if you'd started reading it at the beginning of this podcast. that's somewhat of an exaggeration, but not, maybe not too much of one. But they're nice because they can read fast, but you can also reread them quickly, which they merit a reread. They have nice little quotes and pictures and fun, creative things that. It kind of looks like a coffee table book, except I don't have coffee table books cause I have kids and they. Rip them up. We should find some good like board books, but. Austin Kleon should publish a board book. He has a hardcover version right now. No. That's still like an artist it's their anniversary so that we can go get that with a. Little bookmark. That's really cute. And he'll sign it. Well, it's a. It won't, it wouldn't save our, our copy to have a hardcover on it. But, thanks for joining us. We'll see on the next episode. All right. See you later. Bye.