Dangerous Faith
Dangerous Faith is a ministry that strives to light a fire inside of Everyday Christians to live radically for Christ so that we can glorify God by advancing His Kingdom.
Dangerous Faith
#75: Dangerous Life– Is Christianity a Cult?
The Dangerous Life team asks, "Is Christianity a cult?"
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Welcome back to the dangerous faith podcast. I have the team with me Blake, justin Zeke, chloe Mackenzie and Isaac.
Speaker 2:And John.
Speaker 1:Isaac and John Isaac. Do you want to tell our listeners who John Isaac is? Don't they know they may or may not John.
Speaker 3:Isaac is our unborn child.
Speaker 2:Yes, he's still there.
Speaker 3:He's five and a half months in the womb. Yes, there we go, wow.
Speaker 1:And the new honorary member of our dangerous life team and we're talking about the question is Christianity a cult? And I'll go over a couple definitions so we see what we're coming at. There's the neutral definition of cult, kind of broad and vague. It's a system of religious beliefs and ritual from Merriam-Webster. In that broad definition, christianity is a cult. It is a system of religious beliefs and rituals that we do. But day to day in our popular culture, like the way we use the term cult, we mean it more insultingly, more pejoratively, kind of like oh, you're part of a cult. It's that negative meaning that we're going to talk about for today, zeke. Is culture a cult?
Speaker 4:It has a word in it. What does pejoratively mean?
Speaker 5:That's what I was going to ask. Prick a note.
Speaker 1:Insult, negative, attacking harsh is a culture, a cult. We will chew on that very deep question, but we're going to take a moment. So the negative definition is this a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious? Or there's another definition we could use a great devotion to a person, idea, movement, work, etc. And so just is Christianity a cult.
Speaker 5:Justin, Let me go ahead and tell you something. You're going to use some five-letter words from now on, stop throwing a spare of gollowice, or whatever you said. Petronus, I don't drink patronus. Okay, I'll go ahead and tell you that.
Speaker 1:Disgusting. I'm glad to know that for sure. But all right, so is Christianity a cult and I'll lay out why people say it is and then we'll get some responses. We have our people that we follow. I think of celebrity pastors, teachers, etc. We have Jesus clothing, jesus apparel. Churches can have some overlap maybe with communes, where people go and live and do life and all that. You have some dangerous aspects where maybe Christians do some harmful criminal activity at the encouragement of their leader that they follow and so what are you talking about?
Speaker 1:So, for example, you might look at I was about to say cult but uses it in some definition. But let's see what is the people? Waco, texas, oh, the Branch Davidians, branch Davidians. There would be some people that would take groups like that and lump them in with Christianity fair or not.
Speaker 4:I thought you were lumping them and saying that. I thought you'd give them as an example of us.
Speaker 1:This is like an attack on Christianity. What people might say Look all these people, people drink the Kool-Aid and all that, so to speak, just groups that do that. And all in all, the thought is, well, you Christians, you don't think critically and you kind of check your brain at the door. If you're going to be a Christian, be a part of a church. You're a cult in a negative sense. All right responses to that. Anyone.
Speaker 4:Your chair squeaking a lot, so just a heads up.
Speaker 1:My chair is squeaking a lot. I might need to.
Speaker 6:I check my brain at the door all the time, so I don't.
Speaker 1:Blake is a yes vote, for we are a cult. Any responses?
Speaker 6:We're definitely not a cult.
Speaker 1:Blake, you can't just then go again.
Speaker 6:Like I said, I check my brain at the door.
Speaker 2:What was that second definition you used so?
Speaker 1:there were a couple others that I used I think it was maybe the third one A great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement or book or something.
Speaker 2:I think with that definition we are a cult. Okay, because we have great devotion to Jesus and what he did on the cross.
Speaker 4:It's pretty awesome and his writings, but it's true.
Speaker 2:So is there like a caveat where it says but not real stuff.
Speaker 1:But fake.
Speaker 5:So two things. One, I'm pretty sure it is Waco Texas. You need to say it right it's Waco. No, it's Waco. You don't know nothing.
Speaker 1:Waco Texas.
Speaker 5:Waco, texas. The second thing is I don't think we're a cult, as I stumble over my words like I've been drinking. But I don't think we're a cult because Rev John has not once brought out the Kool-Aid Not once.
Speaker 6:We do communion, Justin.
Speaker 5:That ain't no Kool-Aid. That's a spicy Kool-Aid. That's a spicy Kool-Aid.
Speaker 6:So okay, no Kool-Aid yet I'm glad to report I want Isaac, Like there's got to be a caveat because by definition we're a cult, but like there's another definition that I went over.
Speaker 1:I think it was the second one. Isaac was pointing to A religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious, which means fake, false, made up. Oh yeah, no, it's been never been done, see with that definition too, I think a lot of people.
Speaker 3:when we think of cults, it's where they take this religion and one person is magnified, not in the same way that we worship a God. They worship a human who they say you know will never die, and then they die.
Speaker 2:Don't we do that?
Speaker 3:No, jesus what he rose again.
Speaker 2:He was a human.
Speaker 6:He was also the son of God, but Jesus never said he wasn't gonna die. He was the word made flesh Isaac, I think. I don't think he is still, but I don't think David, whatever his name, from the leader of the branch Davidians was the word made flesh. I think he was just a lunatic.
Speaker 3:Like I'm thinking about, it was the same David.
Speaker 6:Koresh. Yeah, it was David Koresh.
Speaker 4:Yep, david Koresh, but McKinsey's making a point of when we do that to people who aren't Christ. So how the but Isaac's making the point to the person who's a non-believer might look that and say, well, you're doing the same thing. You're just saying it's okay when you do it for Christ.
Speaker 6:And then we go, no go. Look at the empty tomb.
Speaker 4:No regular person can do that. So that's the question why is it okay for us to worship Christ in that way and it's not a cult? But it's bad when someone does it to another human and we call that a cult Because Christ was the way to go Nate.
Speaker 6:Because Christ is the son of God.
Speaker 4:Well, they would say, their cult leader is the son of God.
Speaker 6:Okay, well, you, I would say, tell me, show me where David Koresh's body is and let me see it rise up out of the grave, and I'll be like, okay, I'll believe you, okay.
Speaker 4:I'll say something. Jesus, show me his body, show me how he rides up out of the grave.
Speaker 6:Well, the craze empties him. There you go.
Speaker 4:So if we're going off the last definition that Nate gave, where it's a religious group that takes what we consider orthodoxy, meaning right teachings, so, for example, we would consider orthodoxy like Jesus lived roughly 2000 years ago. He said he would die on a. He would die or grew some death and be raised again, and he did it and that by doing that, it proved that God was showing his signature on what Christ said, that God was approving what Christ did. So we would look to the facts and we'd say, okay, here's the orthodoxy, along with other things, but that's some of it, and we'd say that's the right teaching. Now we would say a cult is anything that takes that right teaching and perverts it and changes it to something else, and that's how Christians would define a cult. Fair enough.
Speaker 7:Everyone agree.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so that's all I had to say.
Speaker 6:So if you knew the answer, why ask?
Speaker 2:So it's cult? Subjective, like can everyone be objective and be like okay, this is not a cult, this is a cult this because if you're a nonbeliever, okay, no, why not?
Speaker 4:So it technically can be. If there really is no God, you're right, it all ends up being subjective, just like everything else. But if there really is a God, that means there is a right teaching.
Speaker 6:There's an objective.
Speaker 4:And then anything that diverges from that would be classified as cult, just like. Justin's part of the TNH, which is why we all comes back to orthodoxy, slash evidence like what actually happened and what's actually true.
Speaker 1:I think that's right, a good way of thinking about it and another way we can go at it is psychologically cults in the negative sense of the word, as harmful and just obsessed over a certain leader or a certain teaching. They can be very controlling. So if you look at different groups Scientology and other groups as well that what happens to members if they want to leave? What happens to their family? Scientology is infamously known for being so happy.
Speaker 4:So that's, so happy.
Speaker 1:So happy as in if you try to speak out about things going on inside the church.
Speaker 4:I thought that was one word, not two.
Speaker 1:So happy, so they will come out after you legally, and so Scientology has that reputation so controlling. They'll try to cut you off from your family.
Speaker 6:If there's any disagreement, can we say that about some churches, though they're not necessarily alienate, but you know what I mean Scientology. They'll try to keep you, but some churches are like you leave us, they leave, they get mad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that gets to the point where some of our churches one thing we have to be aware of are these negative tendencies. So, for example, if there's disagreement in the church, like automatically it's seen as an attack on a certain person's control of the church and they can't handle any disagreement of any kind. Zeke.
Speaker 4:Well, another thing with that is it all comes back down to what does the teaching of the church itself teach. So, in that situation where someone because you do have some churches where they act like that they get really defensive and they get really controlling the people who are running that church do, does the church itself teach that in its doctrines, in its statements of faith, etc. Etc. Or is this just the person who's running it at the time being a butt head?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And so you go about what they actually say and teach in their doctrines, not by what the individual members do or say.
Speaker 3:That's a good point because most cults, like you said, they have these practices and stuff that are extremely harmful and it is in their teachings If you leave, then you don't get to see your children or your family or anything, and that's totally different than you know. The Bible says mothers and fathers, you know, will be separated by their beliefs, but it doesn't say like shun them or, you know, do anything like that.
Speaker 4:Like is it a bug or is it a feature? Like let's take Jehovah's Witnesses Shunning is a feature of Jehovah's Witnesses, like in their doctrine they're teaching, that's something they're supposed to do, christians, we're not supposed to do it. It's a bug, it's not something that's meant to be there.
Speaker 6:Yeah, do, mormons do that they probably have some form of it. Yeah, no, they all just real nice, you're going to have to get close to a microphone.
Speaker 5:I'm sorry, they all just real nice.
Speaker 1:That is Justin's input, and so now we're going to move just a little bit towards going over that psychology just a little bit. Another feature of Colts, in the negative sense, is a lack of critical thinking. You're not supposed to think on your own, you're not supposed to do research. Any and all questions are seen as attacks, whereas I was just thinking continue, I'll ask it. Yeah, but I think, as good Christians we know, god gave us our minds. We can use logic and reason. They come from God himself and we're encouraged to do research.
Speaker 1:Here in this group we love apologetics, we love evangelism, telling people about Jesus. So research is encouraged and looking into how the Bible came to be and looking into the resurrection. We don't have anything to hide. So when individual churches make mistakes, we're not supposed to hide that. We admit it. Like this person messed up, this group messed up it's. We need to repent of that, like be honest about failings, and I think a mark of Colts, in a negative sense again, is that they'll try to hide those things, whereas really we need to be open and honest when we fail and we encourage research and critical thinking. So so, blake, you had a comment or a question. Okay, not to, I'm going to say this not with nuance.
Speaker 6:What am I trying to say? Okay, I'm going to sound ignorant when I say this. Okay, so Catholic churches, they don't know what to do, they really don't want their members and I'm saying this with like some, with some. Like, like I said, it's going to sound ignorant, but they have people that they don't really want them reading the scripture in a sense, right Like they have a person that is.
Speaker 4:I don't think that would be today. That did happen in the past.
Speaker 1:I think in the past yes, okay, so one thing about the Catholic Church is you are supposed to spiritually rely on the priest. That's there for advice and wisdom and scriptural knowledge, and so there's not as much of as an encouragement to read your Bible that you would find and, let's say, a Baptist church where Bible reading is very much encouraged. So so there's less of a reliance on personal study or you go to the priest and ask your questions and they'll be able to answer you. But I think that's a little bit different than the way it used to be, where the priest had all the knowledge and you were not to read the Bible in, let's say, english. You know you'd have to be able to read Latin.
Speaker 1:Well, it's not those days anymore, okay, so we wouldn't lump that. No, not the way it used to be, thanks to the reformers and translating the Bible into the English language, which we're very grateful and thankful for, and but it's not going to be the way Protestants necessarily are, where you are highly encouraged Read your Bible, read it off and study, know what's in the Word of God. They might not emphasize that as much, although some of them are trying to get better about it, it wouldn't be opposed to it.
Speaker 6:Yeah, that's why I was getting that they're not opposed to it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 4:So we've kind of talked about a couple things of related to cults. What would be some ways you could discern a cult? What are some typical traits of a cult?
Speaker 6:Easy, I'll ask that for the group. Easy bro, easy you ready for this. You just know.
Speaker 4:I'm just gonna test them against scripture.
Speaker 7:Test against scripture and if they're following someone more than Jesus, I guess, like if they claim to be, you know, like Jehovah's Witness do they claim to be Christians, or do they?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they do.
Speaker 7:And they're mostly following.
Speaker 4:Joseph.
Speaker 7:Smith or their leaders right.
Speaker 4:Joseph Smith, I think was more important. Oh, is that more important? I can make stop.
Speaker 6:Oh wow, you just defended.
Speaker 7:But yeah, if they follow their leaders more than they follow Jesus but, also, like Ozziek said, you have to put them up with scripture too, it also is kind of like if they're like threatening to do something if you leave, like that's like some pretty telltale sign.
Speaker 6:We consider this I'm coming from a true crime aspect when I say this like sexual deviancy, Because like, like a big, a big yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah like a lot of you know leaders.
Speaker 3:You'll see them with young girls you'll see them marrying multiple wives, and I think that's fruit of some perversion. But also if it's if they're after something like you know, if you have to pay, like Scientology, if you have to pay to get into this next level and you never get enough levels, you just pay, pay, pay. If they're after, you know, money or power or control over your life, now that's not the same as you know, giving your money to the church so that you can help other people.
Speaker 3:I know that's kind of how they make it seem in Scientology, but at the same time they're also just saying you know, if you want to know this, you have to pay to figure it out, which is not at all what we say.
Speaker 2:What about pastors? What?
Speaker 4:do you mean?
Speaker 2:They have to pay to go to seminary oh, they don't To become a pastor.
Speaker 4:They don't have to go to seminary.
Speaker 6:You do.
Speaker 4:nowadays it's just called people like Nate, who want to promote their liberal ideology. You know me.
Speaker 1:You know what I do.
Speaker 6:One of the another. This is, like I said, this is also coming from a true crime perspective. But another classic telltale sign if you're part of a cult is that they alienate you from your family, Like they try to isolate you as much as they possibly can, because if you're isolated, you can be controlled easier.
Speaker 4:We mentioned it earlier. So how would we, as Christians, interpret the scriptures that say that I came to divide brother and sister, mother and son, father and son, et cetera, father and daughter. Would we not be saying, oh, we're alienating people? What's the interpretation for that? Anyone's welcome to answer.
Speaker 6:I could go. I could just go down like the long, like the long-winded trail of just like I can't, I just I'm not. I'm not there yet. I can't do short answers. I have to do long-winded trails. I'll get there eventually.
Speaker 2:I was like we can see Chloe.
Speaker 3:I think you're going to disagree. But it's not saying alienation. I'll alienate them. And the Bible even says pray for those who don't know me or invite them into church. But with cults they completely cut off contact. Nothing, no open conversation, no gentleness with it. It's just like boom cut off.
Speaker 6:Yeah, it's like quit talking to them.
Speaker 3:Now, that's the difference there's. I mean, you may have to have some boundaries with people who don't believe the same thing as you in Christianity. You know, if they're actively involved in something that goes completely against what we believe, then you may have to put a boundary. But it's different than shunning them or acting hateful towards them, Because a lot of times that's what cults do is. You know, they're not just not talking to them, they're hateful.
Speaker 6:So I think I think the answers are like perfectly and I guess I've shorter that in my mind would be like, when you come to Christ and you follow Christianity, it is a choice, whereas, like, I'm going to choose to follow Christ and Christ calls me to pick up my cross and die to myself. So it seems like in Christianity, from an outside perspective, it's like oh yeah, you look like you alienate people. Really it's. We're not forcing anybody to walk away from lifestyles. It's that choice that you follow Christ and Christ's like okay, if you're going to follow me, here's the prerequisites to do it. Like you know, pick up your cross and die daily.
Speaker 6:And if that causes you to abandon relationships that you used to have, that would take you away from Christ, well, that's a choice. Nobody's like with cults it's more so. Like you're going to do this and if you don't do this, you're out of this. And I mean, I guess people could say like well, if you don't do that with Jesus, you know there's the thread of hell. But I don't know if I would. I don't know if I would lump that in the same kind of argument, though.
Speaker 7:Yeah, I think, kind of going back to what McKinsey said too, I think, cults. I think the main thing they're missing is like love, because they don't know, like, what the true love is. They just want you there to be in their cult and if you get out, well, you're going to have some kind of, some kind of consequence. But that's the beautiful thing about true Christianity that a lot of nonbelievers don't know is that Christianity is both inclusive and exclusive. So anybody is welcome to be a Christian, right. But it's also very exclusive in that like only if you believe in Jesus will you make it.
Speaker 3:That brings up a good point that Christianity is rooted in love and a lot of cults are rooted in fear. So you can tell the difference between people who truly, you know, experience God's love and want to share that with others, versus people who are fearful, that you know, if I don't do this, then something bad's going to happen, or if my friend doesn't believe in this, like you know. Yeah, it's just they play on those fear tactics a lot too, which you can discern easily, I think yeah, I think you're right.
Speaker 4:At the end of the day, it does come back to him.
Speaker 4:The love, and I think we've all been kind of saying run the same thing. But For the person who would say oh well, that's the exact same thing as a cult, you're saying that Jesus came to divide people and you're not supposed to be with those people. But I think practically that's gonna be anything that you take a stance on, whenever you take a stance on one thing, that you're saying no to another thing and that's inherently going to divide people, even if it's not religious. But you also got to think of whenever he talks about family and I immediately think of Muslims calls. If they grew up being taught Islam and they become Christian, their family's going to cut ties with them. So when Jesus says he's going to divide father and mother or father and son, he I don't think he means inherently. He's like no, I want them all to be Christian, but some of them are going to kick you out of the house and you're gonna be divided whether you want to or not. So I think it's also just a practical matter.
Speaker 7:Okay, but I have a follow-up question. So you bring up like Muslims. So what? What is the? Where is the line drawn when it comes to like cults versus religions? Because would you consider like Muslims to be a cult?
Speaker 6:or yeah, I would consider Islam to be a cult.
Speaker 5:Hey, why don't, why don't we see what Nate thinks about this? Nate has been wonderfully silent. We would love to hear your take on that, mr Williams. I'm I'm enjoying the conversation.
Speaker 1:But, blake, before we get to me, you want to say something.
Speaker 6:I was gonna say too late. I do with Christianity. It's like it gets a bad rap in the cult thing, cuz I always look at it as like. It's kind of like what Cliff connect Is that you say knuckle.
Speaker 2:Knuckle.
Speaker 6:Knuckle, yeah, yeah, or however you say his name, cliff, when he was like you know Jesus, like when someone tries to like Be Christ, like they're gonna fail because they're not Christ is the same thing, kind of like.
Speaker 6:oh, it's the same thing we kind of like, uh, with like churches and stuff like there you'll have churches that'll be cult like in the name of Christ. But it's not that you shouldn't put the blame on Christ. It's kind of like how Cliff said it's like you don't get mad at Mozart when someone plays his piece wrong, like you. Kind of you say, oh well, you didn't practice, you didn't play the piece with. Cry with Christianity though in Christ, like it.
Speaker 6:Kind of like you get one of the churches like, for instance, the branch Davidians you know David Koresh knew memorized the Bible according to what? Like documentaries and documents and stuff like that, like he quote scripture, just like that, and he would use the Bible to control, you know, his, his followers and stuff. So it's like and then people be like well, that's what you get. Like there was one documentary was like well, that's. You know, that's how most Christians are like, that's how Christianity's like. And it's like no, that's not. You know he put he tried to be follow Christ but he got the part wrong. That's not Christ's fault, that's, that's David's fault.
Speaker 4:So Nate Muslims cult or not?
Speaker 5:Yes, I'd love to hear it.
Speaker 1:Is taking a step back. Just summarizing the conversation, I think Christianity broadly, in a neutral sense of the word, is a cult. It's a religious system with beliefs and rituals, but in the negative sense of controlling and alienating and psychologically abusive. I Would say Christianity is not a cult, but some individual churches can be. Yeah, or even you could take a relatively healthy church. If they're not careful they can start to develop some cult like tendency. So you always have to be careful, controlling critical thinking.
Speaker 1:Love bombing is another thing we didn't talk about. But sometimes to get people into your church you love, bomb them and overwhelm them in a certain way and then they join and once they're in they realize, oh, this church is nothing like that. So I think churches, while not a cult, can be culty if they, if they let themselves. Now, when it comes to other religions, I would say the same thing that broadly, islam is a cult in a neutral sense, it's religious beliefs and rituals. I Would say that Islam, oh boy, in the more radical practices I would say, are culty. Yeah, just you look at terrorists and blowing themselves up. I would say that's Definitely psychologically and spiritually abusive to have your people go do that in the name of your religion, mm-hmm Zeke, but back to our definition of if you're taking what is being taught and then perverting it.
Speaker 4:Do they not do that with the Old Testament and their religion?
Speaker 1:so under that the definition yes and then and then there's a sense and it kind of a related topic. You have Christian specific definitions of a cult which is to take Orthodox Christian doctrine, like Zeke is saying, and twist it. So from that it is a related conversation. What is a Christian cult? Yeah, that's interesting. I never thought about it that way. But Islam would be a Christian cult to take a well-known person like Jesus and to relegate him to just a Profit just an important profit.
Speaker 1:That would be a perversion of true Christian doctrine. So that's true. Zeke Islam would be, from a Christian specific point of view, a Christian cult.
Speaker 4:So two other things, One I already forgot the first one.
Speaker 6:Nice dude, that was awesome, so one your homeland was Judaism. Judaism, captain Yarmulke.
Speaker 5:No.
Speaker 6:Oh, no wait, I've had Captain Judaism. I'm Little Yarmulke, the game coming out 2025.
Speaker 5:Alright, I guess.
Speaker 1:Judaism. At this point, again from a Christian's, this would be an in-house definition. This would not be a general cultural definition, Christian, it would be a Christian cult because, to take some aspects of the Bible, specifically naturally the Old Testament, yes, it would get the doctrine of God incorrect.
Speaker 4:So and then I remember my other question. My other question was so it's, would you say it's, important for us as Christians to be able to think differently about a negative cult in the sense of to give examples Mormons, jehovah's Witnesses, scientology negative in the sense that they are abusive, they're manipulative and they're mistreating people versus a Christian cult like we're talking about, where there are some that aren't inherently abusive or manipulative. They're just wrong.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think that's a good nuance to have.
Speaker 4:Because my fear is that if I say, oh, Islam's a cult, people are going to think, oh, so they're manipulative and abusive. Well, some sects are, just like there's some Christian churches that are but I don't think they're a cult in the sense that they're purposely abusing people. I think that they're just really misled and they don't have the truth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this would be different than your doctrine is false, yeah, yeah. So I think these are good nuances to cover All right, as we kind of wrap up this conversation, any finishing thoughts, comments, questions on is Christianity a cult?
Speaker 4:Where's the Kool-Aid yeah?
Speaker 1:Where's the Kool-Aid? Zeke asks? It's in the closet. I'll grab it afterwards.
Speaker 6:When you end this episode, instead of ending like that with that dumb, like whatever, that doodoo, doodoo, like it's almost like the office thing, can you end it with cult of personality? There might be some trademark related things. Okay, we do not own this song.
Speaker 5:I think you can do like 10 seconds of a song without it being so correct.
Speaker 1:So how about you two together like make the noises for the song you?
Speaker 5:sing it You're good singer. Call the personality. No, you gotta do. The look in my eye.
Speaker 6:You know, you don't know the song.
Speaker 1:You're a good singer. Yeah, you're the one that wanted to do it Stop filming.
Speaker 6:Stop filming.
Speaker 1:Chloe, keep filming. Blake, you were there with the song.
Speaker 6:Alright, in the episode Nate, there's your outro.
Speaker 2:Thank you for watching.