Dangerous Faith
Dangerous Faith is a ministry that strives to light a fire inside of Everyday Christians to live radically for Christ so that we can glorify God by advancing His Kingdom.
Dangerous Faith
#79: Was Overturning Roe v. Wade a MISTAKE? Dangerous Conversations with Shelby O'Brien
Nate Williams talks with Shelby O'Brien about the state of the Pro-Life movement, whether or not overturning Roe v. Wade was a mistake in the way it was done, and her opinion on the gender wars.
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Welcome to the Dangerous Faith podcast, and I guess with this interview it's also on Zoom as well, and so you can watch it on our Dangerous Faith YouTube channel and Rumble channel too. But anyways, no matter how you're getting this, I hope you're having a great time, and it is my joy and honor to welcome on to the show Shelby, a dear friend of mine from Towson University back in our college days, and I'll let her introduce herself and talk more about just what she's into and what she's up to these days. But I figured she loves the pro-life movement, pro-life topics and issues, and so that's a big part of what we'll be talking about today. So, shelby, welcome to the show. How are you doing today?
Shelby O'Brien:Thanks, I'm good. It's really good to finally be here. I know that we've talked about being a part of this podcast for a while now and a long time coming, so I'm really excited to finally get the opportunity to really do it.
Nate Williams:Absolutely, I'm happy to. I know it's one of those things we'll text about or call about. It's just like, oh hey, one day this would be nice and it's actually happening. So I'm excited too. But all right, shelby, tell our listeners and our viewers just a little bit about yourself. And also, she is a writer too, and I'm excited We'll get into that.
Shelby O'Brien:But, anyways, tell us a little bit about yourself and maybe, if people want to learn more about you, what they can do, for that is a public university pretty liberal in my opinion, and so we were really going out there doing that and that was, let's see, probably 2015, 2016.
Nate Williams:So, like eight, years Right around there, yeah.
Shelby O'Brien:A while ago now, after college, I went to Ave Maria School of Law, so getting my law degree in a Catholic conservative environment as well, and now I'm a legal research consultant, but still have a passion for the pro-life movement. But the pro-life movement has changed a lot since 2015, 2016. So we could definitely get into that today.
Nate Williams:Yes, and I think we will just say maybe some of the politics of it and all that and it can get really messy, but we'll dive in in a moment, shelby, if people are interested in and we've talked about having you on another time to more dive into those waters. But you've also been writing for a ministry website. Can you tell us just a bit about that?
Shelby O'Brien:Sure, I write for Springs in the Desert. It is an infertility ministry and that's something that I notice a lot of people don't really talk about. There's a lot of couples that struggle with infertility, whether it be primary or secondary infertility, where maybe they have one child but don't have that big, you know Catholic 10-child family that we're so well known for, and I think there's a lot of hurt there and we have that juxtaposed with the society view of dinks right, dual income, no kids, and so there's a lot of times where people can say things applying them to you know dinks, and they don't realize that there are people out there who really do struggle to have children. It's not just easy for everybody and those people need to be ministered to as well. It's something that we need to lock together to look at the pro-life movement and infertility ministries, and they really do go hand in hand pretty well.
Nate Williams:And I'll often talk about that in different arenas the pastors and church leaders and wherever you might find yourself. Just be aware of different family dynamics, don't assume things, and to be pro-life is to take care of everyone. There's the unborn, which is a major point of emphasis, for sure, but mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, those who are not, for various reasons, able to have children, and it's holistic. So you're not just focused on one area, one person, one demographic, and we really need to keep in mind those things. So pro-life is a holistic movement that involves just about everyone. But anyways, it was wonderful to serve with Shelby. She was the president of our group at Towson. I know she's continued to go on and do wonderful things in several different areas, but all right, shelby, let's talk about the pro-life movement in general. Do you have any broad thoughts on where we are as, I guess, a movement, a cause, and I'll just let you take it from there.
Shelby O'Brien:Yeah, I mean, if there's one word that I could use to describe the pro-life movement today, unfortunately I think that that word would be scattered. Right, we had Roe versus Wade, which you know, obviously we were opposed to that, but it had done something for the movement, which it gave us something to be unified behind. There was one thing, one target we want this overturned. And then what? I feel like people weren't thinking enough about that issue of then, what Like did we really think that we were going to succeed in overturning Roe v Wade? Because we did. And then now what?
Shelby O'Brien:So I think that the pro-life movement from whenever we were running the Students for Life group at Towson, compared to what it is today, is very different. Right, the issues have gone back to the states, it's not? I remember looking at the March for Life this year and just kind of wondering you know, why are we even doing it in DC? Because now the focus is so much on the states. I mean, it's good whenever we can all come together and in my opinion, you know, the Supreme Court was always the end point of the March for Life, but I think that we should be pushing for a federal personhood statute now.
Nate Williams:But I think it's a bit scattered. I agree with that assessment and I think you put it well when you had that one singular focus Roe v Wade, and getting that overturned. You're right, that was unifying. Now it's up to each individual state. And one thing I'm curious about your position on is what's called political pragmatism. So, for example, some on the more conservative side they're like all right if we go for full pro-life, life begins at conception, et cetera, et cetera. Well, we're going to lose elections. If we lose elections, then, let's say, pro-choice people are at all different levels of power. Well, we're going to lose everything. They're going to federalize abortions. It'll be worse than it was before. So instead we need to be pragmatic. We need to just do what will win us elections and just take the victories as we can, as opposed to, maybe, the pro-life position of no every state. Everywhere. We're trying to get certain things in place. What are your thoughts with that?
Shelby O'Brien:Political pragmatism versus maybe a bit more principled stance. I don't know an issue of law and I did mine on artificial reproductive technologies, and so in that I kind of faced the issue of do we advocate for?
Nate Williams:you know, the next not evil thing like the next level of incrementalism.
Shelby O'Brien:Yeah, yeah, basically. And I just don't think that that is something that's going to work in terms of abortion. I think that if we cede ground, I don't think that that is something that's going to work in terms of abortion. I think that if we cede ground, I don't think that we should, I don't think we should be doing that. I mean, people know how we feel, everybody knows how the other side feels and I certainly don't think that we should be. And you know, this is hopeful thinking because politics Right, because politics right.
Shelby O'Brien:I don't think that we should be lying about our goals, our aims, just to win elections and then pull the rug out from under people, because that's just transparent. You're just giving the other side reasons to you know, good reasons to think that you're liars, to think you have ulterior motives, and it's kind of like poking the hornet's nest, right? So I don't think that we should cede any part of our positions. I don't think that we should go incrementally. Honestly, I view abortion as the lowest increment. I'm definitely one of those people who thinks that we should take it further. So no, I don't think that we should compromise or lessen our views, extend abortion permissions just to win elections.
Nate Williams:Yeah, I think I agree with you. Here in Alabama we have one of the strongest pro-life laws in the nation and we're very proud of that, and it's basically abortions banned in all cases, except for when the life of the mother is verifiably at risk physically. And recent what's that?
Shelby O'Brien:I said that's a good note, because there's one caveat with the life of the mother, exception that worries me, because I too am like you know. If a woman's life is in danger and you can only save one, that is my sole exception. But I think that something that I've learned in law school. Whenever you say the life of the mother, that affords a lot of wiggle room because people can say well, my life, my happiness is part of my life, my mental health is part of my life, and I'm going to be really depressed if I have to carry this pregnancy to term so verifiably physical threat to the woman's life. I, you know, I just had to.
Nate Williams:No, I love that because you are, you're trained in law. Like you see those things that you see that loopholes and all that that people try to grab on to. So no, I appreciate that. All that that people try to grab onto, so no, I appreciate that.
Nate Williams:And recently Arizona joined Alabama and some other pro-life states with what happened in that state and what you saw with the Republican Party was people who were formerly kind of sort of pro-life they're like hold on now, whoa. And they went after the pro-life law and they said, no, we need to move against it, we need some sort of I don't know, 15 week ban or Donald Trump was like just leave it up to the states. So that kind of spurred me to ask that question to you that they're thinking politically. They're like we're going to go the centrist route, the moderate route of just leave it up to the states. And I'm like, well, what happens then?
Nate Williams:Let's say, like you said, you get into office, you get into power, you have nothing to say to the pro-choice states because you ran on leaving it up to the states. So then, once you're in power, you can't tell them to get more pro-life, because then that's contradicting the platform you ran on. So you're kind of stuck. Once you get there and you win the election, you can't do anything to make states more pro-life, otherwise you'd be contradicting what you ran on, anyway. So I just wanted to get your opinion there and oh go I want to say.
Shelby O'Brien:I do have a further opinion with that, which kind of takes me to the heart of why I actually don't really like the dobbs opinion. So dobbs was the case that overturned roe versus wade, and I think that the pro-life movement was so ready to overturn roe versus wade that we didn't consider the caveats of how that could be done, and the Dobbs opinion took a very legal approach to it. Right, we talked about due process, we talked about rights that the Constitution does not recognize and, quite frankly, I think that the court really dropped the ball on that one because the logic of it I do have to agree a little bit with the minority in that case of this could impact other rights that we weren't necessarily focused on. And so now people are panicked about things and what we did was we left all of this on the table of what about the science of it? They don't talk about the science of it in Dobbs, right.
Shelby O'Brien:Why are we pro-life? Not because of the constitution or what it does or doesn't say, like we are people who you know. Yes, we are people of faith. So there's that element. But if you were to tell me today and you knew me at a point in my life whenever I was really close to just identifying purely as an atheist, and even at that time I was staunchly pro-life because I don't see it as a religious issue. I never use religion to defend my pro-life beliefs. What I see is the science of a new human being, an embryo, a zygote, being a stage of human development, unique DNA, all of that, and that's not something that was mentioned in Dobbs.
Shelby O'Brien:I think that we should have taken that approach, a more scientific approach, and use that as a solid reasoning to say, hey, this was bad law because we didn't know things then that we know now. And it's not like there weren't amicus briefs that told us these things. Right, people, outsiders, can write briefs, send them to the US Supreme Court. We people were saying this, but the court didn't say this, and so now it's like whenever we just talk about the Constitution, yeah, scattered Again, we're just scattered. I'm glad that we overturned Roe versus wade, but I think we did it wrong I definitely see your point now.
Nate Williams:do you think in a way they almost they stayed with what they knew? They knew law, they knew the law of, I guess, uh, history of american law, whereas once you get into the realm of science, maybe that's not their area of expertise. Now you know much more about. You know law, lawyer stuff, judge stuff, all that and you could use all the technical terms. But, for example, they know law, they don't know science as well. Would that be a possible explanation or not really?
Shelby O'Brien:yeah, I agree with you that they probably did stick with what they knew. They knew the law. That was the approach that they were going to take. But I'm concerned generally in the field of law because, like you said whenever we started this conversation, pro-life for us doesn't just mean anti-abortion. Right, there's a lot of things coming down the pipeline. We have assisted suicide. That's a huge one. Um, there's just so many things in the pro-life realm that if we don't acknowledge the science of it, we're not talking about the reality of it, the truth of it, um. So it's just something to keep in mind.
Nate Williams:I think that's a good point, but anyways, this is why we need something I've talked about before. We need Christians at every level of society. We need Christian lawyers, judges, professors, teachers, actors, actresses Because, for example, you might have what might be considered a win Roe v Wade was overturned, but you bring up a good point. It may not have been overturned the right way and then that affects your ability to do different things, moving forward. And again, shelby knows much more about these things than I do and I appreciate her education there these things than I do and I appreciate her education there. So we can talk now about pro-life again. In general, if you were to mentor, disciple a young lady and she's like Shelby I want to join the pro-life cause. I want to do things. Activism, get the word out. I just want to be involved. What might be some advice you'd have for young people wanting to jump in?
Shelby O'Brien:educate yourself. So I know that you know you've talked. I was the president of the Students for Life Club. You were the vice president and you're humble and you're not going to say that. But I know that whenever we were talking about even our group, before we went out and did anything, we had apologetic sessions with the members and we said we're not going to put you out to table on campus. We're not going to go pray in front of abortion places without you having resources to be able to have an informed conversation about this. We're not going to make you look dumb, we're not going to make you just get lost on the spot.
Shelby O'Brien:So number one educate yourself. Find out whenever people say, why are you pro-life? Be able to answer them. Watch people who do this for a living. Listen to whatever Kristen Hawkins tells you. So that's number one educate yourself. Number two is don't be a jerk. Understand that your approach and your actions, they have consequences. So if you're out there with signs yelling at people, stop murdering. They're not going to come up to you and say what, loving, charitable, helpful people. I must approach them and not abort my child. No, they're not going to do that. So find a way to communicate your point firmly but lovingly. Show them that you are there to care for them.
Shelby O'Brien:I went outside an abortion facility one time and I didn't like it because the people that I was with they were kind of doing that. They had signs that I really didn't agree with and I kind of realized this might not be something that I want to do, like this way of ministering might not be for me. Because I ended up having a better conversation with the security guard blocking the door to the abortion facility and I listened to him saying because he's out there, he sees people all the time protesting, and we had a really fruitful conversation and I told him some of the other things that I was doing and he said you know, I think that you're doing it right now. Do I think that sidewalk advocacy isn't important? No, I'm not saying that at all, but I think that you need to be the right kind of person to do it and understand that if you're going to be out there, you need to be loving and not in a loving and well, I'm telling you the truth and so I'm loving you way, but yes, that, but also you need to genuinely be loving. You need to understand that you are receiving real people and you need to care for them.
Shelby O'Brien:Pro-life is about caring for others not just loving them, but truly caring for them. And if you're out there helping them, then you better be prepared to help them be on that sidewalk. The next thing that I would tell people is diversify, right. So if you can't, if you're not a person, if you're like me, if you're not a sidewalk person and even Abby Johnson she said I'm not, you know the loving, nurturing, sidewalk type of person you know. But she's good at speaking, she's very good at that, she's very good for advocating. So find your strength, find what you're good at and pour everything into that area. If you want to nurture, go volunteer at pregnancy centers. You don't have to be on the sidewalks. But if you're going to be on the sidewalks, you better make sure the type of person that should be on those sidewalks.
Nate Williams:I think that's wise, because sometimes people do a lot of harm to the pro-life cause and they mean well, but just the way they come across. It's like man, you might not always persuade the hardest pro-choice heart out there. Some things we allow God to work and move and we pray, but there are a lot of people on the fence that might not know their position, they might not know where they stand. They're kind of working through things or thinking through things and if they see the harshest of us, the meanest, the mean, just the nastiest of us saying things, all of a sudden they're like well, that's yeah, I definitely don't want to be with them, so I'm going to choose the other side, and so it's very important that our witness be Christ-like, honorable, loving, kind.
Nate Williams:But not compromising.
Shelby O'Brien:Yeah. So I know that we talked about making sure that if you're going to the sidewalk, if you're going to go advocate on sidewalk, then you want to do it the right way. And I do want to plug. Like I said, I went to Ave Maria School of Law and an alumna from my school who's on the alumni committee with me she actually founded Sidewalk Advocates for Life, which is an organization that really seeks to equip people with those skills that you can lovingly go and minister. So I'd recommend at least everybody watching this go check out their website.
Nate Williams:Okay, I think that's great and we all need resources and training. And what I'd also encourage is there are lots of organizations and groups, probably wherever you are, so you have pro-life pregnancy health clinics, you have maybe local college campuses, and there are going to be a lot of people there men, women that will need resources in case certain situations come up. At churches need to know Shelby is Catholic, so we would say parishes, right.
Shelby O'Brien:Yeah, churches, still churches, Church. Okay, look, Want to get the right wording and anyways that yeah.
Nate Williams:Churches, still churches. Look, hey, look, want to get the right wording and anyways, that's funny In our friendship, just that whole conversation. We do not engage in the Catholic-Protestant war.
Shelby O'Brien:I tell people all the time but Protestants saved my faith, yeah time. But Protestants saved my faith, yes, yeah.
Nate Williams:And. But at your local church, maybe help make your church leaders aware of just things going on events and trainings and resources. That's out there. So, anyway, start local as well fundraising and all that. And I know pregnancy health clinics they need different things like diapers and clothing and all that stuff. So just get out there and do what you know, but also be careful, educate yourself and learn more about the best ways of going about things. But anyways, looking to the future Shelby future of the pro-life movement and I didn't think that Roe v Wade would be overturned in my lifetime that's something we would say and then it happened. Maybe it didn't happen the best way, but eventually it happened. So, moving forward, we talked about unity. What are some goals that we might be able to have that we can rally around? You mentioned the word scattered a couple times. I think that's a great word. What are some things that we can fight for together that might help to unify us?
Shelby O'Brien:Yeah, I think you know I mentioned a federal personhood statute. I still think that that's really important, but now I do also acknowledge that the issue has been turned back to the state. So I don't want the pro-life movement to be scattered. In that sense, I do think that there are organizations that do unite us and then we're able to kind of go out and disperse ourselves into our local communities, into our states and so just working on making those areas as pro-life as possible, continuing to educate, continuing to fight the good fight that we're used to fighting. But also, if we were looking for something federally to unite us it's not going to be another Supreme Court case, it's would have to be some kind of statute.
Nate Williams:Understood, understood, okay. Well, I appreciate that and I think just learn what the status is in your state, wherever you are. I live in Alabama, shelby lives in. As I said before we started recording, I called it Michigan, I don't know if that annoyed the ish out of her or not, but Michigan. And so, just, wherever you are, figure out the status of the pro-life, pro-choice issue in your state, because it's going to vary between up until birth to Alabama. All abortions physical abortions are banned, we're working on.
Shelby O'Brien:All physical abortions are basically banned unless the life of the mother is verifiably physically at risk and so just read those statutes too, because Michigan they passed a, they passed the statute that it was a prop three and it was, you know, to give more abortion rights.
Shelby O'Brien:But they looped a lot of other stuff in there too. That people I mean abortion is sensationalized, but they got a lot of other stuff in there too that they're not seeking middle ground. You asked me if I thought that we should go incrementally. They threw in my husband likes to kind of joke about this that with the statute that they passed, it's essentially like you could open up an abortion industry for 13 year olds in your garage and never tell their parents. Like they did not incrementally approach the issue, they just attached to the sensationalism of it and put whatever in there. And I think that the one that we passed in Michigan, I mean that kind of shocked some people whenever they were reading it too, but it was more framed as oh, I want my rights restored, and so, of course, I'm going to vote for this instead of what else are we saying yes to? And I think that that's a big issue that you know could take up an entire other podcast.
Nate Williams:I agree and that is a massive part of legislation is the fine print that people don't advertise the part they keep quiet. And that's not just with the pro-life issue, it's with a lot of different stuff. For example, here in Alabama they're looking to expand gambling, and so there's just different parts of bills that like different things that are attached. That it's the fine print. They don't advertise on what they're going for. But yeah, it's just another example, but anyways. So I'm glad that gives us some goals and hopefully we can rally around it. But just do what you can where you are. Sometimes we get a little bit despondent because we're like I'm just one person, what can I do? Well, what you can do is to love and serve the people in your life, to be a support for mothers and fathers and couples, and to be there for them, to listen to them, provide resources as you're able to through your local church or through your local pro-life ministry, and so maybe you can't change the whole country, but you can affect where you are, and so start there.
Shelby O'Brien:And I don't think you should try to change individually. You know, don't try to reinvent the't think you should try to change individually. You know, don't try to reinvent the wheel. Don't try to take off. You know, bite off more than you can chew. I think you do your part in it and that's where you're going to have the most impact.
Nate Williams:Now, shelby, this is a part of another topic that we're going to get into the gender wars. You have women heading very much, very progressive to the left and our young men are heading to the right and you have various versions of feminism, all the different waves, and then you have the reactionary red pill manosphere Andrew Tate, andrew Tate wannabes and all that. Just feminists say don't get married because marriage is a tool of the patriarchy. Andrew Tate bros say don't get married because women can take half of everything you've worked for, so don't get married. Anyways, wherever you go in, all that and I know the pro-life, pro-choice issue is a part of that gender war.
Shelby O'Brien:So do you have any thoughts on that broadly, and then we can go into specifics a little bit more, but any thoughts overall you know, you and other male pro-life friends of mine, which is that I, a woman with a uterus and you know womanhood, would like to give you formal position, to use my voice to defend your position. So I don't know if I should get like little cards and hand them out to say a woman told me I'm allowed to have an opinion, um, but I don't think that it would necessarily matter, because what is a woman right?
Nate Williams:what is a woman exactly now?
Shelby O'Brien:it's however you feel in the moment, I guess um, you know, I think that the the whole gender wars thing and all they could have. There's so much that you could say about all of that. It kind of hits me a little bit personally, because I don't know if you even know this story about me, but whenever I was about two or three, it took my hair a long time to come in. I was very blonde as a child and you know it's not getting my hair in ponytails or anything by the time I was three. So I had short hair and I would go around and I would say, you know, it's not getting my hair in ponytails or anything by the time I was three, so I had short hair and I would go around and I would say, you know, I have short hair, boys have short hair, I a boy. And so my little preschool I a boy, I a boy. We go out to the mall and I'd be in my little dress and people would be like, oh man, like you have such a cute daughter, I a boy.
Shelby O'Brien:And in this day and age my mother would be considered a bit of an abusive parent because she said, shelby, no, you are not a boy, you are a girl. And I said I have short hair. Boys have short hair, I a boy. Was that because I thought I felt like a boy? No, it's because I had short hair and as a three-year-old a two-year-old without the knowledge that there were differences I just thought that that's what it meant to be a boy. So my mom was like well, shelby, you know there are differences between boys and girls other than hair, like boys pee standing up and girls pee sitting down. And I was like I can't do that, and so I did it.
Nate Williams:I don't know how much of a mess I made.
Shelby O'Brien:But I was like I am boy, your move. And she explains to me the anatomical difference between boys and girls and I said, oh, I am girl. Now, obviously I don't think that it's that simple for everybody, but I do think that we live in a society that you know as much as we can be scattered on pro-life issues. There's so many layers of complexity within gender as well. Word, and I saw it advertised to me for the longest time before I started to watch it and I was. You know, I grew up watching Jeopardy. I was trying to guess what the most dangerous four-letter word would be. What would you say the most dangerous four-letter word would be?
Nate Williams:oh boy, I might say go more the poetic route, but I think of love.
Shelby O'Brien:That's a good answer. You could do a lot with love. That would be dangerous in a certain way, dangerous faith. But what they said, the most dangerous four-letter word, was them. Four-letter word was them T-H-E-M. Them.
Shelby O'Brien:And I think that it's the divisiveness behind that sentiment that can tell us a lot about the gender wars that you're referring to, with different waves of feminism and extremism in both directions, because nobody uses the two-letter word right. Nobody says us, nobody seeks compromise. Everybody says them. They think that women should just be submissive. Well, they are trying to take away this right of trans individuals. They are doing this.
Shelby O'Brien:Who's they Is they? They is who TikTok is telling you. They is the average American. You have a conversation with them.
Shelby O'Brien:They're not going to fall into the extreme levels of blue and red. Everybody's a little purple, I think, but we have to. It's like society has trained us that we have to be staunchly, red or blue, you know, conservative or liberal. And that's where I think these extreme sides are growing out.
Shelby O'Brien:Nobody wants to feel like they have been so demonized in a category of them where, okay, men, it's toxic to be masculine, it's toxic to want to work with my hands and to open a door for a woman. I'm somehow suppressing her in some way. Well, you know what I'm tired of being told I'm a jerk and I'm tired of pushing back against this. So now I'm somehow suppressing her in some way. Well, you know what I'm tired of being told I'm a jerk and I'm tired of pushing back against this. So now I'm just going to own it, and I think that the same thing would apply to women. I think that the same thing is why, you know, people wonder how Trump got elected back in 2016. And I mean how we got to this place where he's on the ballot again, where he's on the ballot again.
Nate Williams:but it's like people I I think that it's a society of them isms is that people just feel so pushed into a corner that all they have left to do is just push back, and we just get extreme views on both sides I agree, social media, echo chambers and we all stock up our weapons, literally or metaphorically, and just go to war, as opposed to if you go out and you form relationships with people, then you'll see that, like you said, everyone's a little purple, everyone has some aspects of them that doesn't quite fit with their group, and you might have more to bond over than you think about, and so I think that's very that's a good point. Now, oh, what's that?
Shelby O'Brien:well, I say people don't. Yeah, people don't talk about it as much. But there is one thing and you had mentioned unifying these, you know, gender issues with the pro-life movement. There's one thing that I think that everybody, everybody, all, all you know shades of purple can agree on is I don't think anybody's trying to do evil in any direction.
Shelby O'Brien:My mother-in-law always says assume goodwill. And you know that's hard whenever we take a position with abortion, like, oh, I think that this is murder, so how can you goodwill be? You know, committing murder, but you know that's a really extreme way to say that too. We don't need to be sensational, sensationalizing it like that either. Um, but to say I had a professor one time at towson who broke it down.
Shelby O'Brien:You know why are people pro-life, why are people pro-choice? We are focusing largely on the new life, and people who are pro-choice are focusing largely on the rights, the autonomy of the woman, which I don't personally think comes before the right to life, of the new life. But I think that we can all agree on working towards the dignity of persons, and that's something that the Catholic Church is really big on. And so whenever we're approaching all these things, whether it be conversations or how we treat others, how we live out the pro-life movement, how we live out conservatism, anything. I think that it's always doing what Jesus did. I mean Jesus cared about the dignity of the persons as well. He would. He would touch lepers, he would. He would go places that people wouldn't go, and you don't get to those places by standing on the sidelines yelling, you know, profanities at them.
Nate Williams:I think that's well put. Humanize the, the people you disagree with. Humanize the people across the aisle. And I think, if you look at history, a lot of the worst atrocities happened because a group basically dehumanized another group to the point where the most awful things could happen. And well, that's okay. They're not really human, they're not really equal in value and worth, and so then you can treat them how you want to.
Nate Williams:So I think that's that's well put and I guess, shelby, with you being a, a women, is, I love that story you share as as as a kid. I think that's great because, like you said in these days, share as a kid. I think that's great because, like you said in these days, your mom might be considered abusive for not affirming your, your, uh, what you thought was your gender. So, anyways, great story, but yeah, uh, with, let's say again, mentorship, discipleship. You have a couple of young ladies that let's just say they meet with you, shelby. You have a couple young ladies that let's just say they meet with you, shelby. Show us your great, grand wisdom of life. And and how, how should we go about just walking with the lord? And and let us learn from you, and I guess what would be your advice to or to those ladies as they go through this and they see maybe the on the right side, the Andrew Tate bros, and they see on the left side where their fellow ladies are going politically and just the way they're living. They go Shelby.
Nate Williams:I just don't know. Marriage, is it a good thing? I don't want to be controlled. I don't want to be having a family with kids. That might affect some of my personal life, future plans and dreams and goals. What should I do here? Shelby and a lot of guys, let's be honest, they're not. Maybe marriage material. What might you say to them?
Shelby O'Brien:Honestly, I think that this is a really sad question Not, you know, like a sad question, but like this is a genuinely sad question because I think that there was a time in my life where I could have been one of those girls and my sister and my brother-in-law pushed hard on me Like you are wrong, and my sister tried to save me from making mistakes that she made. And I would say I need a sister, not a missionary. And I would say there are some things that I just need to learn on my own. And so if there's a group of women coming to me asking me for my advice, that's wonderful right, but usually in society we don't get people asking us for that. We watch's wonderful right, but usually in society we don't get people asking us for that. We watch that train approaching the broken bridge.
Shelby O'Brien:And I think that, being people of faith, people who we believe, we know that there are intrinsic goods of an ordered society. To live that out, to emphasize that you don't have to give up your individuality, your autonomy, you don't. You know. I think that the Bible verse there's a lot of Bible verse that so many people rest this opinion on it's like women be submissive to your husbands. But the other side of that is men die for your wives, and so it goes hand in hand. It is a mutual thing where men and women have to work together. I would tell them not to flirt to convert.
Nate Williams:I would tell them not to Flirt to convert would tell them not to flirt to convert.
Shelby O'Brien:I like that. Try to um, say you know I, I can fix him, do whatever, be with somebody if you're, if you are thinking of getting married or you know discerning relationships at all, don't you know? Don't fall into the the frozen mindset of things. If he's a bit of a fixer-upper Nobody's perfect, Understand that, Everybody's a bit of a fixer-upper but get somebody who is ordered and ordered in a way you as a woman and I'm Catholic and so I know that there's a lot of arguments about women in the Catholic Church are so oppressed, all this of arguments about women in the Catholic church are so oppressed. All this not if you find a good man who understands the scriptures right, Like you should find somebody. You can find somebody who can support you in your dreams. I mean, I'm the primary breadwinner for my household and I grew up and so did my husband and households where the women were the primary breadgivers. So it exists, it's out there, um, I just I I think that it's part.
Shelby O'Brien:Going back to your initial question. It's a sad question because people don't believe that these things can coexist and I think that, ultimately, the only advice that I could say is what I said with the first question of the pro-life question, which was educate yourself, read, see examples. There's so many people we eliminate. Go on YouTube, look up the angels, look up Kristalina and Jason Everett like, look up people they haven't figured out. You're 19 years old. Stop getting overwhelmed, please. I'm just going to say like the world is not that deep.
Nate Williams:Oh man, it's okay to go outside and touch grass a little bit Touch grass.
Shelby O'Brien:That's my advice.
Nate Williams:Live life and don't get all so worked up. But you know, shelby, if you don't get married at 19, like it's over right, there's no.
Shelby O'Brien:Christian world. Right, like I'm Catholic, but I see it. You know you have your Christian influencers online. I try not to, you know, tiktok too hard or anything I delete a TikTok but you know people are out there getting married so young, and so I think that what causes this panic in people is you have young women who are in college because of course you go to college right, that's what society says, but I'm in favor of trades, but different conversation. But you know they're in college. So they're being told one thing okay, we're prepping for our career. But then around them they see my friend who just turned 20, they're just got married and they're pregnant. Like what am I doing with my life?
Shelby O'Brien:They go into this like catatonic state of I don't even know what to do anymore and I'm just gonna freeze and you know panic circle um. But you don't. You don't have to have it figured out at 19, like you don't have to have the ring by spring. You don't have to do the senior scramble, like just touch grass it'll be all right hey we'll make it, we'll make it.
Nate Williams:and so you have a. You have two different sides. You have those that are like man, marriage is a bad thing, I'm never going to get married. Then you have those who yeah, you have those who marriage is everything, that's my identity. And so, again, pitfalls on both sides of there.
Shelby O'Brien:And though them married people, them they do this like okay, find a good man, work, work. We said on your individual sub, you're dropping the bucket, your contribution, You're not going to fix marriage as a whole, but prepare yourself. If you've got things to work through, go to therapy before you flirt to convert. Okay, Make sure you're ordered before you go trying to fix somebody else, Because I think that that's an issue that people have. But again, different conversation.
Nate Williams:I love that We'll have to have dating advice with Shelby. No, I think that's wonderful. All right, Shelby, this is kind of an open-ended question. We covered pro-life broadly and then we talked about the gender wars a little bit from a more of a female perspective. Anything else you think we missed, or do you think we can wrap up this conversation?
Shelby O'Brien:I'm good to wrap it up. I mean, we can talk for hours about whatever, but that's true, shelby, and we'll.
Nate Williams:We'll keep talking once we're done recording. But, shelby, thank you for joining me and, like I said at the very beginning, there'll be a podcast version of this and then eventually I'll put up the video on YouTube and Rumble the video version. But anyways, friends, this has been Shelby. She did a wonderful job, just like I knew she would. She's very well-spoken and very, very edumacated. But all right, shelby, thank you for hanging out with me.
Shelby O'Brien:It was good to see you. Thanks for having me on Finally. It was good to finally get to do this.
Nate Williams:Absolutely, and we'll have you on again about different topics, including I'm learning more and more about your deep love of Taylor Swift.
Shelby O'Brien:My gosh. God help us all.
Nate Williams:God, help us all. That's all. Amen to that. All right, friends, I'll talk with you later and, like like I always say, as as the weeks go by, we'll have more episodes and videos for you. All right, until next time.