Courageously claiming female pleasure: The doorway to your destiny – with Courtney Boyer

As someone who grew up in faith-based schooling with restrictive norms and shame-based practices, the word "pleasure" has long given me the heebie jeebies. 

Until very recently, I couldn't even imagine, let alone EMBRACE, a world or belief system where pleasure and autonomy are embraced rather than shamed. 

Yet, here we are, about to share a conversation with Courtney Boyer that could be the very key to unlock a life filled with more vibrancy and authenticity for so many. THIS is an important conversation – probably one of the most important conversations we can be having.

Courtney Boyer, a renowned relationship and sexuality expert, joins us to unravel the layers of societal expectations that often snuff out joy and self-acceptance at every level of our lives. And when we get to the bottom of it, much of our challenges with love and joy and acceptance and abundance - it's all wrapped up in our shame around our own desires and experience of pleasure.

Courtneys wisdom will – at the very least – spark curiosity in you around the complexities of female pleasure and its profound implications it has on your personal sense of freedom and empowerment.

This episode sheds light on the surprising connection between embracing our desires and stepping into a world where life is lived in full color. We confront the misinformation surrounding female sexuality and celebrate the potential for a society informed by pleasure, rather than restrained by outdated taboos. Pleasure is not just about the act of sex; it's about claiming our rightful place in a narrative that has long been dictated by others, and in doing so, finding our truest selves.

MEET COURTNEY BOYER

Courtney Boyer is a relationship and sexuality expert and author of Not Tonight, Honey: Why women actually don't want sex and what we can do about it. She has been featured in publications including Parent’s, The Huffington Post, Cosmopolitan, The Independent, Yahoo!, and The Mirror. Courtney believes we can reclaim our power through our sexuality and she helps her clients to infuse passion and creativity into their lives by helping them uncover what's preventing them from connecting with their pleasure and purpose. For 2024, Courtney is focused on offering small group and 1:1 concierge sexual wellness retreats around the world.

As her work in this field develops, Courtney is drawn to the emerging fields of epigenetics, neuropsychology and energy work. She is trained in evidence-based methods like NLP, EMDR, IFS, and trauma-focused Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

Hey and welcome to Untethered with Jen Liss, the podcast that's here to help you break free, be you and unleash your inner brilliance. I'm your host, jen, and in this episode we're going to talk about why your desires are actually the doorway to your destiny. It's Jen, welcome back to the podcast. Today we have an episode featuring Courtney Boyer. Courtney is a relationship and sexuality expert and author of Not Tonight Honey why Women Actually Don't Want Sex and what we Can Do About it. She's been featured in many publications. Her work is out there.

Speaker 1: 0:52

Many people are beginning to talk about women's pleasure practices, women's sexuality, and she is one of the leading voices speaking about this.

Speaker 1: 1:01

She's also a coach and she's highly interested in the fields of epigenetics, neuropsychology and energy work. A lot of her work is focused in trauma-informed cognitive behavioral therapy. I think what you're going to be interested in, especially if you're somebody who grew up living in a little bit of a box she has, as you'll hear in her conversation. She grew up in a highly religious upbringing where she felt like she had a certain set of rule books and you had to follow not just one rule book, but like the entire encyclopedia to a T in order to be worthy of being on this planet. And she has untethered to the point of being somebody who is talking about this very traditionally taboo topic because she realizes that it's at the root, it's at the source of so many of women's struggles with stepping into our power, with taking up space, with letting ourselves shine and truly offering our gifts into the world. So I think you're really going to appreciate this conversation. It's going to make you think and, without further ado, I welcome to the podcast Courtney Boyer. Hi, courtney.

Speaker 2: 2:16

Hi Jen, how are you so?

Speaker 1: 2:17

good Good, so good. I am thrilled to talk to you about this topic and for us to dive into it, because sex is taboo. It's like as much as we talk about it and we think about it and we engage in it. It's a taboo topic, especially when we talk about women's pleasure and the ways that it impacts our lives in general. So I've only had one other person really come on the podcast and talk about this in the past and there's a lot of interest. So thrilled to have you on and glad that it's something that you're speaking about in the world. Thank you. I have a question for you, Please. When you were a little girl, would you have ever imagined that this is the kind of thing that you are speaking? This might be an obvious question, but maybe not. Like, are there things that you look back and you're like oh, it makes sense?

Speaker 2: 3:11

No, no, I mean, okay, I would say like as a little girl, no, I absolutely not. Like no, I couldn't even say like the proper medical names of body parts, like that was just. I grew up in the evangelical Christian church and so talking about sex was just, you just didn't do that. It was shameful. It was, you know, girls were. You know lots of quote modesty and like body shame and expectations and pressure around how you, how much space you're allowed to take up, and so for me, yeah, when you asked that question and I know listeners can't see it, but I was like my whole body was laughing at that Like no, I would have never thought I would be here.

Speaker 1: 3:54

No, yeah, well, okay, then, how did you get to this point? What is the journey that took you from I mean, knowing that you had that kind of an upbringing? What is it that eventually took you to this place, where this is something you talk about?

Speaker 2: 4:10

Yeah. So I grew up wanting to be a lawyer and went to college. I went to a Christian kindergarten through college. So, like, my whole education has always been based in Christian education. And so when I got to college, I went to a quote liberal Christian school. So you didn't have to be a Christian to go there, and that was the first time I met people who shared the same faith as me, but they had a very different life. And so, like, I met like Democrats for the first time and I was in student government and our student body president came out as gay and I was like you can't be a Christian and be gay. Like that just rocked my world.

Speaker 2: 4:49

And so that's really what led me to look at my beliefs around sexuality and really started to get angry about the messaging that I had gotten, because it was so shame based and so fear based and I felt like that was wrong and misleading. And in my sophomore year I read a book called the Women's Room in a gender politics and law class and that totally changed my life and I thought like this cannot be it. It's a fiction book about a woman in the 1950s and her journey with sex and marriage and motherhood and I was like this can't be it for women. I have to be part of the solution. And so I told my parents I'm not going to law school, I'm going to go study sex and I'll figure the rest out later.

Speaker 1: 5:33

It's so fascinating that moment. I think a lot of us who are on an untethering or we're on a journey that is different from what we originally set out with in our childhood, we've all had that moment or that thing where it's like wait what I thought doesn't feel real, because there's somebody else who's living a life that's really different from the way that I was taught we all need to be living. I myself had that when I went from Catholic school to public school. I was like wait a second, these people are like good humans and they're living a very, very different life than me. Yeah, it's a huge wake up call experience. So I have heard you say that you believe that a pleasured woman is a powerful woman and a powerful women can change the world. Yes, what inspired you to say that?

Speaker 2: 6:25

I think, once I started to. I think that there's two points One, when I started to wake up to creating a pleasure-filled life for myself and I realized how much more powerful I was coming from a place of being pleasured, and also seeing other people that I have worked with like the clients that I've worked with a lot of those women who started to choose pleasure for themselves. Finally, after feeling so small their whole life, they started to show up in the world differently and really step into their power and create some incredible things. And so it just kind of came to me one day, this correlation between pleasure and power and how the more connected a woman is to her pleasure, the more powerful she is.

Speaker 1: 7:13

Yeah, it makes a ton of sense because one of the things Marianne Williamson, her quote, says that the one thing that we are most afraid of is our power. And if we're afraid of being of pleasure, like if we're afraid of both of those things, how can we ever fully step in to what we're capable of? Where do you think this, and maybe even in your own journey, this idea of connecting more to pleasure, to experience more pleasure? How does that show up in other areas of our life? Because we think of pleasure as sex, or maybe chocolate, or maybe a great glass of wine, but you're talking about it beyond. I think you're talking about it beyond. Can you explain that?

Speaker 2: 8:02

Yeah, so when people hear the word pleasure, most people think sex, they think orgasm, climax, like the you know toe curling or shattering orgasms. But really pleasure is anything that brings you joy or happiness, like when you boil, like if you look it up in the dictionary, it's anything that it's like a state of joy or happiness, and that's really what I help, I try to help people do, and what I try to do in my own life is really to cultivate a pleasure-filled life and finding those moments, finding those connections that really fill you up and really just permeate your whole world and turn it from black and white to color, so that you can really experience the life that is meant to be lived.

Speaker 1: 8:46

What's the first thing that people can do? If we're like oh, I hear her. I feel like I may be very disconnected from pleasure, I guess actually, maybe we even back it up. How do we know that we might be disconnected? And then what do we do about it?

Speaker 2: 9:02

So I think one to identify if you're like how do I know that I'm disconnected from pleasure is you're drained, you're burned out, you lack energy. It literally feels like every day is Groundhog's Day. It's a drudgery. I think the best analogy is really feeling like I'm living in black and white, like the world is just kind of I'm on autopilot, I check boxes, I'm doing things out of obligation, like that is. I mean, all of those things are indicators that you are living disconnected from pleasure. And so the first question that you had asked was you know like, well, what do, how do I do? How do I connect to pleasure? Right, like, how do I make this happen? And the answer is incredibly simple, but far from easy.

Speaker 2: 9:48

So the answer that I always give is you have to first believe that you are deserving and worthy of a pleasure filled life. And a lot of people will say, yeah, of course I am Courtney, yes, I want that for me. But then, when it really comes down to it, they're like no, I don't, I don't, that doesn't feel safe. That feels scary, like joy and love and goodness and orgasms and smiling babies and you know, dark chocolate and French red wine. That all feels really scary and unsafe, especially if I have a history of being betrayed and being let down and being disappointed. That's a hard thing to suddenly decide one day. Sure, great, I deserve pleasure. Awesome.

Speaker 1: 10:36

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense, especially when you go back to your own history. You get this. Can I read one of your posts that you shared that connected and I think it goes back to the story that you had shared? So you shared that you were raised in a conservative religious tradition. It was discouraged from connecting with our desires, and shame was used as a tool to direct us back to authority.

Speaker 1: 11:01

It was hard for me to know what I wanted, because I had spent my life pleasing and rule following. It's why I have such compassion for those who come to me and have no idea who they are or what they enjoy or what they want to do. I feel like this was me for years ago, what you talk about with the black and white, and so I know I'm not the only person who has woken up and been like I have no idea who I am, and it was around that same time that I'm on a hike and I have this thought like holy shit, I am way more comfortable feeling uncomfortable than feeling joy, and it led me down the path and I've realized through from beautiful humans like you in the world doing this work, that I too felt like it was unsafe to feel pleasure. So dive into this, the nuance of this post, because you talk about pleasing and rule following and shame. And what do you want people to know? Gosh, so many things.

Speaker 2: 12:05

I think what I want people to know is that there is no rule book and we are sold the lie that you have to live a certain way, and a lot of that is because they want to control us, especially when it comes to our sexuality. Because when we are really connected to our sexuality and again I don't mean just sex, I mean all parts of us, like our feminine energy, our bodies, our ability, our consent, pleasure, yes, but the more connected we are to those, the less controllable we are. But the more connected we are to those, the less controllable we are. I think when people are really wanting to fight the patriarchy and really resist the messaging and the cultural norms that we're told, the best way that you can do that is to own your sexuality, is to tune in to the things that bring you all kinds of pleasures and to choose you. Because when you are in your own power and when you decide, I don't owe you anything, I don't answer to you. Like you are a free woman, and a free woman is scary because she gets to operate in her own rules, in her own power, and gets to do amazing things.

Speaker 2: 13:24

So for me, when I made that post, I grew up so small, so boxed in, I was told you're too much, you're too smart, you're too attractive, you're too distracting, you're too everything. I was too much. So my goal in life was to never take up too much space, and that led to anxiety, depression, loneliness, overachieving people pleasing. Until one day I was like fuck this, I did everything right and I'm still miserable.

Speaker 1: 13:58

I think a lot of people who are listening to this podcast can relate to so much of what you're sharing. Each of us have our unique journey with this, but there's this moment of wake-up call. I hear it from women all the time and I see it in coaching. We are so scared to take up space, so terrified to take up space. What has helped you to take up more space for yourself?

Speaker 2: 14:26

Yeah. So when I was doing research for my book, I think I started to look back. I mean, I didn't, I did. I researched women in the history of sexuality and just the messaging that we've had for millennia, and was like man I am so blessed to be in an era that I have the ability to be on a podcast to talk freely about sex, about women's pleasure. I wrote a book about it.

Speaker 2: 14:47

Like I think I started to realize like not not the burden, but like the, the mission of like the women before me that they didn't have, and so I felt this like compulsion, this compulsion to I get to be their voice. Sometimes, when I would just want to throw my computer against the wall when I was writing my books, I was like I'm done, I can't do this anymore. I would picture my grandma who was so feisty and bold and smart, but she grew up in an era where that was silenced and not celebrated and I thought I will be your voice, I will do that for you, I will do that for my daughters, I will continue to do that for all the women before me that couldn't, and so I think for me that's writing my book is what helped change that mindset.

Speaker 1: 15:37

For me, it sounds like you're alluding to something that a lot of entrepreneurs eventually experience. We even had a very short conversation before we dove into this podcast interview about how we can get our self-worth so wrapped up into our business. And we all fall into that because that's the egoic mind. That's where our mind wants to go. It's where that I don't deserve it. All of that kind of stuff comes in, and one of the most beautiful ways to untether from that is remembering why you're doing it and who you're doing it for. And it's for you, and it's for your grandma and it's for all of those women. Does that feel accurate to you? All of those women, does that feel accurate to you?

Speaker 2: 16:19

Yeah, absolutely, and I think, too, I finally was able to do something for myself too, to choose and to say these are all the messaging that you've gotten, Courtney, Not just you, right? This is all of the women's sisterhoodness. But right now you cannot control what other people do, but you can be an example and be brave enough to start living authentically. And that's scary right when you're like, but people are going the good girl thing and that didn't really lead anywhere fun. So why don't I start being my authentic self and sharing my truth and living from a place of integrity? And let's see where that goes.

Speaker 1: 17:13

Yeah, that's so beautiful. What is something that you've achieved recently that you are currently celebrating? Oh gosh.

Speaker 2: 17:21

So I've been printed in a lot of like pretty big publications like Cosmo and the Huffington Post. But a couple of weeks ago my daughter for her 13th birthday. So I live in Germany, so hopping on a plane and going to London is easy, like fairly easy and she wanted to really go see Wicked. And so we give the kids an option Either you can have a party and a gift or you can do a trip with me, because I love to travel. And so she's like I want to do the trip with you, let's go to London. So I said, OK, so we're in London, and my publicist messages me and she was like hey, I'm going to pick up a copy of the Guardian because you're quoted in there. And I was like what? And so, like I went to the newsstand with my daughter and like was like you know, shuffling through these newspapers and I found the article that I was quoted in, and like seeing my name in print but then having my daughter see me, see it, Like that was that, was amazing, Like that.

Speaker 2: 18:17

That is something that I will forever celebrate because I want my kids. I've got three, my youngest is a boy, but I want them to know, man, anything is possible. You can be a mom and you can be a badass. Who's quoted about sex in the international publication?

Speaker 1: 18:37

That is what a cool moment. Thank you for celebrating that with us. And that moment happened because you have a book that you're currently promoting. Is that right? Tell us about your book.

Speaker 2: 18:47

So the book is called Not Tonight Honey, why Women Actually Don't Want Sex and what we Can Do About it, and I wrote that it came out last year and it has, yeah, it felt like a fourth child. You can see me that, yeah, birthing it.

Speaker 1: 19:05

Why did you write this book?

Speaker 2: 19:07

So anytime I've spoken in groups or pretty much anytime a woman comes to me, she will ask me one of two questions what is wrong with me and am I broken? And I got so frustrated with hearing that over and over and over again that I wanted to create an understanding, like a succinct understanding for people to understand why they're asking that question. So I was like, okay, I'm going to put together like this resource for well, it was written for women but honestly, I've had peoples of all genders read it and men have been really so grateful for it. I'm just that has blown me away the most of like I understand my wife now. I get why she struggles with body image issues. I understand why she's not interested in sex.

Speaker 2: 19:55

Like, thank you for giving me this tool, and that's really what I wanted it to do, because not every woman is bold enough to walk into a mental health or coaching situation and say I'm really struggling, especially with sex stuff. There's so much shame around it, and so I wanted someone to feel seen and be like I'm not ready to do that, but I can read a book and I can do that by myself or I can do it with a group of women in a book club and I can talk about these issues or I can listen to them talk about it and not feel alone, because I don't ever want anyone to feel alone in their struggles, because we are so connected and so integrated with it when it comes to the things that we struggle with.

Speaker 1: 20:42

Yeah Well, and even just the title of the book itself Not Tonight Honey I think pretty much any woman can relate, and probably man. I mean, that's such a good point what you said about husbands really appreciating it. I have another friend, somebody who's been on the podcast before, who she's a relationship coach, and what she has realized is that 90% of her audience is men, because they actually they want their wives to be happy. They want their wives to be happy and they're not, and so there's confusion between both sides, and so you're kind of backing that up too. But there's this barrier like we don't want to talk about it.

Speaker 2: 21:16

Absolutely, and I think sometimes we do want to, but we lack the skills. Like, communication is a skill in general, but communication about sex, that's like a whole another skill set, and very, very few people acquire those tools along the way, and so it's trying to build a house without a hammer. So of course, you're going to get frustrated, like you don't have that tool, and so I try to help people understand that when they're reaching out to somebody like myself, it's about acquiring more tools. There's nothing wrong with you, you're not bad, you're not broken. You lack the tools, and so that's what this journey is. It's about equipping you with these tools and then helping you to understand how to use them.

Speaker 1: 22:05

How cool that we live in a time where there's people like you who want to help people with this topic and are able to your point. This is something that we can be talking about and that you're making it really accessible, because you're sharing a lot of things on social media. You've got your book and then you've got your coaching. You're helping people at a lot of different levels and making it really accessible. Is that something that's important to you?

Speaker 2: 22:24

Yeah, absolutely. I know that not everyone is either financially, emotionally, time-wise, able to commit to working with me or somebody like me, and so being able to plug in and take what you can is, yeah, I want that for people. I want them to feel like, okay, I can improve my life a little bit, not because they're. There's this struggle that I'm like you don't always have to be improving and going to the next level and stuff, but if you see a deficit or you see a problem in a relationship or an area of your life deficit, or you see a problem in a relationship or an area of your life, find those like, seek out those tools so that you can make it better. You don't have to suffer.

Speaker 1: 23:07

That's a beautiful message you don't have to suffer.

Speaker 2: 23:09

No.

Speaker 1: 23:11

What's one thing that you share in the book that you wish everybody knew?

Speaker 2: 23:16

Everything that you've been taught about sex is a lie for women, especially the way that our bodies respond, the way that we feel about our bodies. So much is really misrepresented in the media. So much clinical research that has been done has been done around white men. Very few clinical studies have been done on women, let alone women of color. So really, yeah, I don't like saying a negative from the book, but that's the first thing that popped into my mind.

Speaker 1: 23:50

But it's an entry point for a lot of positive things. What you're sharing there, everything that you know and you're going to help support them in turning that upside down and seeing all of the positives, I think that's really amazing. What is the top if we're thinking about untethering ourselves and really living our most brilliant lives so that when you do look back, you're 90 years old and you're looking back at your life and you're saying that is a life well-lived. What is one of the top tethers that you yourself have struggled with has maybe continued to come back around for yourself.

Speaker 2: 24:24

Oh gosh, the judgments of others. What would they think if they knew? Blah, blah, blah. I think I cared the least that I've ever cared in my life. But there is sometimes I think I and it's not that I care about the judgments is that I don't want to have the conversation Like I don't want to. I don't want to answer to you, I don't want to explain myself to you. That just feels exhausting. So if I just avoid having to do that, then I will. I think that is the thing that I find myself struggling with and I'm trying to become more untethered to it.

Speaker 1: 24:56

But yes, such an honest answer. It's. In my experience and in asking this question to lots of people, it's the number one thing. It's the number one thing, and you're talking about a topic that is not easy, so you've obviously been able to overcome that a lot. Do you have something that works for you? Reminders to yourself, anything that really works well for you?

Speaker 2: 25:15

I think, like coming back to like there is no rule book, like I think for. So I'm really like, for so long I was that, that kid and that young woman. That was like checking the. I'm doing it all right. Do you see? Does everyone see how great I'm doing? Like my self-righteousness was through the roof? I'm doing it all right. Does everyone see how great I'm doing? My self righteousness was through the roof. I'm like, check it Pinterest. Yes, loving mom, wife, all of the things. And that led to nothing but resentment. I was so angry and so sad and so alone. And when I realized that I was trying to follow a magical rulebook that does not exist and really only is meant to control me, when I released that and was like damn, I'm going to change version of you. Not everybody likes that you're no longer controllable, or that you have boundaries and so, or they just flat out disagree with how you're living your life, but I don't care. Like, I choose joy and I choose love and that's what I want to do.

Speaker 1: 26:28

I feel, as you were describing yourself as a kid, I'm like were we the same kid? We're the same kid, we're the same.

Speaker 2: 26:34

Oh, my gosh. Yes, probably my gosh.

Speaker 1: 26:39

But we are taught that there is a rule book and if you follow the rule book, then you're going to, you're a good girl and you're going to get the treats and you're going to get the rewards, and everybody's going to love you and you're going to be successful and you're going to all the things. There comes a point where we realize that we're suffering because of that.

Speaker 2: 26:56

Yeah, and there's. No, there's no medal for martyrdom. Like I thought that if I was so selfless and I put everybody's needs before me and I was this amazing people pleaser, I said yes to everything and I, you know, no, no, I don't have desires. No, it doesn't matter what I want, right? No, no, courtney, there there is no metal for that. Like, no one gives a shit. They will take advantage of you and suck you dry until they get everything that they need from you. Like nobody wins when you shrink yourself Nobody. So I had to decide okay, I don't want this example. I don't want my kids to do this. I don't want my girls to grow up to be like that's the kind of mom I want to be. I don't want my son to be like that's the kind of wife I want to be, who's a yes man and who doesn't advocate for herself. No, I don't want that?

Speaker 1: 27:50

Yeah, I'm sure, having children I advocate for herself. No, I don't want that. Yeah, I'm sure, having children I don't have children, but I'm sure there's a new level of perspective because you're looking forward. You're looking backward at grandma, but you're also looking forward for your children, and there's no way that that couldn't be a driving force and it probably was for our parents and their parents, and so on too, and we're just slowly progressing. It's gotten us to this point. Is there anything that you haven't covered today, that you're like? I just really think that people need to know this.

Speaker 2: 28:18

Yeah, I just really, really want, especially women, to know, like gosh, there is a life out there that is so full of the most amazing things that you love. It may not be what your best friend or your mom or your husband or whoever loves, but your desires are like doorways to your destiny. So listen to those, tune into those, because they will never lead you astray as long as they are based in love and not fear. That is your North Star. Seek that Trust that.

Speaker 1: 28:53

Yes, we talk about that all the time on this podcast. It's fear or it's love. It's one or the other. We're choosing one. So why not choose love? Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I have one final question. I ask every guest who comes on the podcast Courtney, where do you see the magic in the world?

Speaker 2: 29:11

I see it everywhere, but man do. I see it in women who are truly free.

Speaker 1: 29:22

Love that. You're the first person who's ever said that so beautiful. Thank you so much for coming on. Where can people connect with you? Where can they buy?

Speaker 2: 29:30

your book. Where could they work with you? So I'm pretty much on all the socials at Courtney Boyer Coaching Courtney with a C, and then my website is CourtneyBoyerCoachingcom, and then my book is at most online retailers Amazon.

Speaker 1: 29:43

It's in several countries Canada, germany, the US Beautiful and it's called Not Tonight honey, in case we didn't say that. And you can also link get links to all of Courtney's things that to the book, to her socials and to her website in the show notes. Thanks again for joining, courtney. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 30:04

Those two questions that Courtney shared, that she most often sees women asking, that she most often sees women asking what is wrong with me and am I broken? I know myself and many women have probably asked themselves those questions and definitely in a sexual space, is something wrong with me that I can't do what it is that my husband is desiring, that I don't feel the way that I feel like I should feel, that I don't feel the way that what I'm seeing on TV is not my actual lived experience. So when it comes to sexuality, we're feeling this, but then it's also going beyond and that same feeling is showing up in our work lives, it's showing up in our other relationships, it's showing up all over the place, and the work that Courtney is doing and so many other experts are doing is realizing that at the root of it there's a lack of deservingness, there's shame, there's all of these things that are rooted in sexuality. Rooted in sexuality, and I've been fascinated with this for myself and along my journey I have uncovered some things for myself. So stay tuned for Thursday's thread episode, where I'm going to dive in a little bit deeper to my own experiences and share some of what I have learned for myself. So stay tuned for that, looking forward to chatting with you about it and diving a little bit deeper.

Speaker 1: 31:32

Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If there was something in it that made you think that you feel like one of your girlfriends or somebody else might benefit from that, you feel like, hmm, this is so fascinating. I encourage you to share it with a friend who might need to hear it as well. Really powerful that we start talking more and more about these things. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to Courtney for coming on the podcast. It truly means the world to me that you would listen. You just keep shining your magical unicorn light out there for all to see. I'll see you next time. Bye.