The Sleeping Giant: The Role of Religion in Climate Advocacy

In this episode of the Climate Confident Podcast, I engage in a fascinating discussion with Yonatan Neril, founder and director of the Interfaith Center for Sustainable Development (ICSD). Despite being an atheist myself, I recognise the potential of religion in shaping opinions and driving action. This prompted me to explore Yonatan's work in mobilising faith communities for ecological sustainability.

Yonatan shares his journey from California to Israel, highlighting the deep connection between religion and ecology. We delve into the concept of integrating spiritual teachings with modern technological solutions to address climate change effectively. Yonatan explains how religious communities, often seen as a "sleeping giant," can be pivotal in inspiring ecological behaviour change.

We also discuss the significance of the Faith Pavilion at COP28, which brought together diverse religious leaders to advocate for climate action. Yonatan offers practical examples of faith-based environmental initiatives and emphasises the importance of ethical consumption and sustainable living.

Join us for an insightful conversation on how ancient spiritual wisdom can complement modern efforts to create a sustainable and spiritually aware future. 

Yonatan's ICSD links:

• Facebook
• Instagram
• Twitter and
• YouTube

Whether you're religious or not, this episode provides valuable perspectives on tackling the climate crisis. Don’t miss it!

Transcript

Yonatan Neril: 0:03

A humanity that is deeply connected to religion, continues to embrace a lifestyle that involves increasing use of fossil fuels and increasing consumption of material products. And that, you know, we can't simultaneously expand consumer society and curb climate change. And the only force in the world that is capable of challenging the growth of consumer society, is religion.

Tom Raftery: 0:31

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. This is the Climate Confident podcast, the number one podcast showcasing best practices in climate emission reductions and removals. And I'm your host, Tom Raftery. Don't forget to click follow on this podcast in your podcast app of choice to be sure you don't miss any episodes. Hi, everyone. Welcome to episode 177 of the Climate Confident podcast. My name is Tom Raftery. And before we kick off, today's show. I want to take a moment to express my gratitude to all of this podcast's amazing supporters. Your support has been instrumental in keeping the podcast going. And I'm really grateful for each and every one of you. If you're not already a supporter, I'd like to encourage you to consider joining our community of like-minded individuals who are passionate about climate. Supporting the podcast is easy and affordable with options starting as low as just three, Euros or dollars, that's less than the cost of a cup of coffee and your support would make a huge difference in keeping the show going strong. To become a supporter. You simply click on the support link in the show notes of this, or any episode or visit tiny url.com/climate pod. In today's episode, I'm talking to rabbi Yonatan Neril and in upcoming episodes, I'll be talking to Daniel Jaconetti of H E D. We'll be talking about architecture and design. Lena Fedirko from climate works or we'll be talking about transportation. Larry seltzer CEO of the conservation fund, fascinating episode there, and Elizabeth Thompson from visions 2030. So stay tuned for those episodes coming up in the coming weeks. But in the meantime, as I said, with me on the show today, I have my special guest Yonatan. Yonatan welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Yonatan Neril: 2:21

Sure, I'm Yonatan Neril. I direct the Interfaith Center for Sustainable Development based in Jerusalem. I was ordained as an Orthodox rabbi and for the past 14 years I've directed this organization. We are revealing the connection between religion and ecology and mobilizing people to act. There's a big emphasis today on promoting technology to solve the ecological and climate crises, and I would like to put forth that we also need age old spiritual technologies in order to curb climate change.

Tom Raftery: 3:01

Okay. Okay. We'll, we'll come to what you mean by that in a second, but before that, can you start by sharing a little bit about your journey? What inspired you to found the Interfaith Centre for Sustainable Development?

Yonatan Neril: 3:20

Well, I grew up in California, next to an old growth oak tree that the native Sackland and Ohlone peoples harvested the acorns from over 150 years ago. And I grew up going to a Jewish summer camp near Yosemite, where I was first introduced to the connection between religion and ecology. And I've been living in Israel for the past 20 years, and I've been focusing on this connection between religion and ecology because religions are the biggest NGOs on planet earth, and they have huge media assets, huge land holdings, big educational institutions but they're a sleeping giant in terms of climate action. So my own journey has, has, has led me to realize that it's important to, to mobilize religious communities in order to promote sustainable future.

Tom Raftery: 4:16

Okay. And let me just preface this. I mentioned this to you on the intro call, but people listening might not be aware. I'm an atheist. I don't prescribe to any particular religion. Zero, I don't believe there is a higher being, etc. And I happen to think that religions have been the cause of a lot of destruction in humanity throughout our history. But I also am acutely aware that for many people, religion is a very important aspect of their lives. And so I think if religions can now be convinced to work towards the goal of bettering the planet, bettering ecology I think it could be a potent force for good. Famously, as I mentioned, there have been conflicts between religions down throughout the ages and even today. How are you getting religions to work together in your interfaith organization?

Yonatan Neril: 5:31

So it's a great question. And you know, I would agree with you that religion, religious adherence in the world, you know, haven't always been forces for good and that there have been, you know, many religious wars fought over the millennia. And even to this day we're seeing wars that have elements of a religious ideology that is contributing to the fighting. Amazingly bringing people together around climate action and faith based teachings is a way that people of many faiths can unite. And so we had my organization was one of the co organizers of a faith pavilion at the UN climate conference, COP 28 this past December in Dubai. And we had a team of people from many faiths, which included Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists Hindus that were, I was able to come together and find common cause around ecological sustainability. 85 percent of people in the world affiliate with a religion according to some studies. And and with among those 85 percent there's a range in terms of how, how much people practice on a daily or weekly or monthly basis. But most of humanity does have some affiliation to a religion. And, and, and especially in continents like Africa and South America and Asia religious affiliation is higher than in places like Western Europe. So, you know, in 1988 countries, nations of the world started negotiating about how to curb climate change. And that then started the, the first COP, the conference of the parties. And this process has been going on now for a number of decades, but every year the problem gets worse. And I believe that that relates to the need to think differently about what is the problem and what are the solutions that will solve this problem. Up till now, I, I think the conventional approach approach has been that well, the problem of climate change is a problem of fossil fuels, and we just need to decarbonize the economy and, and reduce the use of fossil fuels, and then we'll solve the problem and climate change will be solved. Now and so therefore there have been various tech technological attempts, what, you know, through carbon sequestration or different efforts uh, electric vehicles, et cetera as well as renewable energy. But the problem keeps getting worse and, and now we're reaching a point where where we really need to get our act together. And so the fact that most of humanity adheres or affiliates to a religious grouping and many people and billions of people have religious practices means that there is an undertapped potential for ecological behavioral change. To put it differently, I believe that the spiritual roots of the climate crisis are greed, short term thinking, egoism, and arrogance. And the spiritual solutions to the climate crisis are humility, long term thinking, caring for other people, caring for other creatures, and humility. As long as we ignore those spiritual roots and spiritual solutions, then we're ignoring a big part of the problem. To give a different metaphor, it's sort of like a, if a person has cancer, God forbid, well, they might take all sorts of, of, of chemical treatments or radiation treatments, et cetera. But if that person continues to eat a diet of donuts and hot dogs and hamburgers and soda, et cetera, it's, it's, it's unlikely that they will in the longterm remain a healthy individual. So as long as we essentially feed ourselves or live off of values, that are inconsistent with a sustainable life on earth then we will continue to experience the symptoms of a problem. Henry David Thoreau said that for every hundred people hacking at the branches of the tree of evil, one person is hacking at the roots. And a Jewish sage who lived in Spain about 700 years ago, Rabbi Shlomo Ben Aderit Naroshba said that if you address the root issues, then the peripheral issues will fall away. And that's why I believe it's so important that we address these root issues.

Tom Raftery: 10:15

Fascinating. I don't disagree. Obviously it all makes complete sense as far as I can, as I, as I can tell. How do we address these root issues though? Because it's, it's one thing to say, we need to address them but practically, how do we go about that?

Yonatan Neril: 10:32

So yes, the, the, the, the solution is in the details. So part of the work that that my organization has been involved in over the past 14 years has been engaging seminary deans and faculty to promote the teaching and preaching on religion and ecology. To the listeners, I will pose the question to those of you who have gone to church or a mosque or a synagogue or go once in a while. When was the last time that you heard your clergy member talk about climate action or about ecological behavioral change. The reality is that most clergy in the world don't make the climate crisis a priority and for many clergy the climate crisis is a non issue. It's as if it doesn't exist and and and many consider it a political issue that it's it's thought of as a as a left wing issue and something that only progressives would would deal with. And, and many clergy think that the environment is sort of its own silo and the environmentalists will solve the environmental problem or the, the environmental, the clean tech companies will solve the ecological crisis and religion can just sort of sit it out and do its thing of and focus on hermeneutics and homiletics and liturgy and theology and, you know, learning circuit, sacred texts and praying. That's what religion is about. Whereas the ecological crisis is sort of, that's like on a different planet. It's not really our problem. But on planet earth, this is a religious planet, the human being, the creatures of God that are human beings, as it turns out in the year 2024 happened to be mostly religious individuals. And so, therefore, we can't continue in this siloed way of where religion sort of does its own thing and ignores ecology. And then those people, that small segment of, of the population who are environmental scientists and clean tech entrepreneurs, et cetera, that they try to solve the issue because as we've seen now for decades, the, the, the thrust of humanity, the main Body of humanity is moving in a direction of increasing consumerism and materialism. You know, for example Microsoft a number of years ago made a commitment to reduce its carbon emissions. Microsoft is the largest company on earth with a, I believe a 3 trillion dollar valuation. And a study just came out that showed that, or Microsoft might have even reported that It's carbon emissions have actually gone up in recent years because of artificial intelligence and it's Bing search engine now using AI and using chat and Microsoft being connected to chat GPT and so so on the one hand, you know, countries, the nations of the world make these climate pledges at the U. N. Climate conferences and on the other hand, humanity and I would emphasize a humanity that is deeply connected to religion, continues to embrace a lifestyle that involves increasing use of fossil fuels and increasing consumption of material products. And that, you know, we can't simultaneously expand consumer society and curb climate change. And the only force in the world that is capable of challenging the growth of consumer society is religion.

Tom Raftery: 15:18

Okay. Okay. You've described faith communities as a sleeping giant in climate action. How do we wake up the giant?

Yonatan Neril: 15:31

Yeah. So, so, so as I was starting to say, part of it has to do with encouraging clergy to teach and preach about ecology and climate change. And so, and so that involves engaging seminaries and engaging current clergy. Part of the work of my organization is that we published a book called Eco Bible, which is an ecological commentary on the Hebrew Bible. And then we've worked with a Christian pastor from the Lexington Theological Seminary in Kentucky, Reverend Leah Shade, to develop over the past several years, a, an eco preacher resource that is, that we're distributing to, to many Christian clergy to encourage them to incorporate climate change and ecology as part of their sermons. And, and, and there, there's a whole field of, of religion and ecology NGOs around the world that are doing similar work to engage the billion Hindus, to engage the 2. 2 billion Christians, the 2 billion Muslims as well as Buddhists, and Sikhs, and Jews, and Zoroastrians, and Jains, and Taoists, and Confucius. I mean, you know, if you look at China, for example, with 1. 5 billion people, in the past 20 years, there's been a significant growth of religious people in China, whether they're Buddhists or Confucius or Christians or Muslims. And so even though China is thought of as a communist country, but actually China has become more religious in the past couple of decades.

Tom Raftery: 17:06

Okay, and In what ways are religious leaders and clergy uniquely positioned to influence climate policy and advocacy?

Yonatan Neril: 17:18

Well, you know, if let's take the example of Pope Francis in 2015, Pope Francis issued an encyclical, which is like a book called Laudato Si on care for our common home. And I attended a conference in Spain in the northern part, Torre Ciudad, that focused on that at a Catholic shrine. And I attended an interfaith conference, and then we went to Madrid and had a press conference with Spanish media about the role of Pope Francis's encyclical in promoting ecological action. This past year, Pope Francis issued another papal document saying that in the nine years since he, eight years since he issued his, his original book, the problem has only gotten worse. And, and, and he points to a number of, of spiritual roots. So, for example, he talks about the rapidification of society with social media and technology. And, and Pope Francis has made it a, a key part of his papacy to try to encourage bishops and Catholic priests and, and other Catholic institutions to engage on this issue. Now, to be honest, within the Catholic Church, as well as within other, other Christian religious denominations and other religions, there's actually a battle that is being fought, and there is a tension between those religious figures and those clergy who believe that the climate crisis is something that deserves the attention of religion, versus those who believe that the climate crisis is is it's something that is antithetical to religion. Now, why do, why is there so much opposition within many traditional religious groups to ecological action? It partly has to do with the fact that the ecological movement emerged in the 1960s at the same time as the hippie movement and the free love movement and the tree huggers. And so many religious conservatives. have over the past 60 years have come to identify and and affiliate the environmental movement with the free love movement, which obviously is, you know, almost all traditional religions are opposed to, to free love and sexual promiscuity. That, that's, that's a commonality, you know, of opposition among religious traditions however, the caring for God's creation is not about it's, it's, it's not about free love. It's care for God's creation is a fulfillment of the verse in Genesis chapter two, verse 15, where God said to the human being that God placed the garden of Eden and it says in Hebrew, to serve it and to conserve it as Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sachs translates it. So, so that's part of the battle that is actually being fought today and it needs to continue to be fought within religions is whether the religions wake up and take part in curbing climate change.

Tom Raftery: 20:32

Okay. Okay. I mean, don't want to get too political on this, but when you look at the situation in the United States, for example, very much the, Christian, I want to say evangelicals, I guess, are extreme right wing and so align themselves more with the fossil fuel lobby than the climate lobby. Is that something that we have any hope of, of changing in our lifetime?

Yonatan Neril: 21:07

So, so I have a book here called Anointed with Oil, which is a book written by Professor Darren Dochuk of University of Notre Dame in Indiana. And the subtitle is How Christianity and Crude Made Modern America. Now the book is, also talks about not just about the relation between Christians and oil extraction, but also of Muslims and Jews. And that over the past 180 years since the first oil well was made in, in Baku, Azerbaijan in 1841. By the way, Baku is gonna be the site of the next UN Climate Conference in November, cop 29. So, so in these past 180 years, religious people have been a key part of oil extraction in the United States, in the Middle East, in Russia in Nigeria, in Angola, in, in many of the leading oil producing countries in the world. And, and, and some of them have come to have a theology around it, a theology of prosperity, a theology of abundance, that God is blessing us with this resource. Now, through the work of my organization, I've been trying to challenge that theology and to promote a different theological orientation, which is that just like we need to tread with caution in terms of the mining of uranium and plutonium and, you know, not every country or people should just mine and, and enrich uranium and plutonium and develop nuclear weapons, even though God did put uranium and plutonium on earth in, in, in the core of the earth, the crust of the earth. So too, it is with fossil fuels that I don't think that the Creator, the source of all being the supreme being, whatever you want to, to, to whatever person or or a faith believer wants to call the the supreme being. I don't think that the fossil fuels that are buried in the earth are meant to all be extracted and burned because climate scientists are telling us that if we do that, then there will be serious consequences and we are already seeing those consequences. I mean, yesterday was was, was 121 degrees Fahrenheit in New Delhi, almost 50 degrees Celsius, a record, a city of about 30 million people. So, part of the shift I believe that that needs to take place is toward an ecological theology, which is that instead of a theology of conquest and domination, which many religious adherents and different religions have, we need to embrace a theology of interdependence, interconnection, caring for God's home, caring for all of creation.

Tom Raftery: 24:16

Okay. Very good. Very good. And I mean, speaking of books, let's talk about your book, Eco Bible. Can you share some key insights or teachings from your book that urges stewardship of nature, for example?

Yonatan Neril: 24:33

Sure, I would be happy to. One teaching that relates to climate change. is is a verse from the book of Genesis chapter 14, verse 10 eco Bible is a commentary on 400 verses in the Pentateuch, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. And in this verse in Genesis, it says that there was a war between four kings and five kings, a Middle Eastern war, the, the Bible describes the first regional war. And in that war, the kings from Babylonia conquered the area near the Dead Sea and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled and fell into bitumen pits. Bitumen is a viscous liquid that is a fossil fuel. It, and it's, it's thicker than crude oil. And according to the Jewish tradition, the Midrash these kings fell into the pits and they were unable to get out. And so Abraham came and lifted the kings out of these pits and, and then these kings came to believe that Abraham had also been miraculously saved by the tyrant Nimrod in Iraq when Abraham was younger. And I believe that that that this teaching is a metaphor for our current situation that humanity is stuck in fossil fuels. And over the past 180 years, since we've begun to extract them, we have only increased our, our use of them of coal, oil and gas, and that in order to break our addiction to fossil fuels, we are going to need tools that, as I said earlier, are spiritual technologies of finding our pleasure in spirituality and community and family instead of in, you know, airplane travel to island destinations. That, that the transition to a less carbon intensive lifestyle requires that we connect to age old ancient religious wisdom. And that, so therefore Abraham who is revered among Muslims, Christians and Jews as you know, the, the, the patriarch, Abraham as the prophet was able to take these kings, these, these wicked kings of Sodom and Gomorrah out of the fossil fuels and bring them into a place of, of light and of goodness because of his spirituality.

Tom Raftery: 27:13

Okay. Okay. Interesting. You mentioned as well the faith pavilion at COP28 and the fact that you'll be going to COP29 as well in Baku. The faith pavilion that in, in, COP 28 sounded like a major milestone, were there highlights and what kind of media did it achieve?

Yonatan Neril: 27:40

So the, the faith pavilion at COP 28 was indeed a highlight for the religion and ecology movement. The pavilion had 70 sessions with 330 speakers. So it was one of the largest religion and climate events that has ever taken place. It was hosted by the Muslim Council of Elders in collaboration with the COP 29 presidency, the United Nations Environment Program's Faith for Earth Coalition, the International Partnership on Religion and International Development, my organization, the Episcopal Diocese of California, as well as other organizations. And we, we hired a PR firm and were able to get coverage in actually got mentioned in thousands of news articles and TV segments. This was partly due to the fact that Pope Francis for the first time announced that he was going to attend COP 28 and inaugurate the Faith Pavilion with an in person speech. He ended up getting sick a few days before and so he, he ended up not coming, but he developed, he delivered a video address that was shown at the COP about the importance of bringing religion on board. And it's, it's looking like for COP 29, there will, the senior religious figures attending as well at COP 28, we had two senior Swamis who are senior Hindu religious figures, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar and Sadhguru who have large followings in India where there's about a billion Hindus. And we also had Chief Rabbi David Rosen and, and Muslim religious figures. And Buddhist, and Zoroastrian and a Zoroastrian priest for the first time to speak at the, at the conference. So it was, and we also had an interfaith walk that brought together people from indigenous traditions as well as faith traditions and were able to, to do a peaceful walk of solidarity calling for climate justice and higher ambition among the country negotiators.

Tom Raftery: 29:46

Fantastic. Great. And the, I mean, you, you've mentioned that obviously, but also things like the, the interfaith climate work in Spain the Laudato Si from the Pope, how are these efforts influencing global climate action do you think? Or are they?

Yonatan Neril: 30:09

So I, I think that they are having an influence. Part of the challenge of this work, I will admit, is, is the difficulty in measuring it. For example, with the Paris Climate Agreement in 2015, Pope Francis issued his book, Laudato Si, in June of that year, and then the Paris Agreement was signed about five months later. Now, can you say there was a direct connection? Well, it was an indirect connection, but this is what I was saying earlier, that because religion is such a significant force within humanity. And because many of the country negotiators are themselves religious people, there definitely is a link between taking climate action and having the full involvement of religious communities. And so, so I believe that the, that the stronger the faith based presence is, in the, in the UN climate process, as well as in humanity's attempts to to change its behavior, the more we're going to see actions. But there are some specific metrics that you can look at. For example, we can measure the amount of solar panels that are on houses of worship and Interfaith Power and Light, which is a US based organization with affiliates in about 40 states in the United States, they, they have on their website a, a page about how much solar panels have been put on houses of worship in the United States. Similarly, you can measure how much composting is taking place at houses of worship. You can measure how frequently do clergy teach and preach on the topic of climate action? So these are an you know, and when a house of worship becomes an exemplar for climate action, it has a ripple effect on the congregants. So when a congregation says that it's a religious priority to put solar panels on their roof, then that sends a message to the congregants that this is also something they should do in their own homes. Last year I was in Sweden and I spoke at a Lutheran church and the pastor of that Lutheran church bicycles from his home to the church about 20 kilometers every day, 10 miles. And he does that every day, rain, snow, ice, or sunshine. And, and Sweden is not exactly the, the sunniest place in the world. So he himself is an example to his congregants of a religious leader who's also an ecological champion and who walks the walk. He doesn't just preach it. He himself is living that lifestyle. And it also relates to diet in terms of houses of worship, having gardens on their grounds. Having, having trees and having forests for example, in Ethiopia, many churches have forests around them, and there's satellite photos that show a ring of trees that's surrounded by, by very arid land. In, in in the Nordic countries, the Church of Sweden has made a commitment to be carbon neutral by 2030, as has the Church of Finland, as has the Church of England, and in the Nordic countries, those churches are big land holders of forests, and so their climate commitment also relates to their forestry policy. So those are some practical examples.

Tom Raftery: 33:51

Fantastic. Fantastic. Given that many of the listeners to the podcast may not be religious, as I mentioned at the start, I'm not, how can the principles and actions of faith communities inspire broader societal change?

Yonatan Neril: 34:08

Well, you know, it's interesting because the word religious, perhaps like the word environmentalist, the term has all these connotations. So, some of the principles that I've been describing, it actually doesn't matter whether a person affiliates with a religion or pays dues to a house of worship. Let me give you an example. A person who decides to go for a daily walk in nature, to go to a forest or next to a body of water. and who recharges themselves through walking in nature and enjoying that and comes into balance and breathes the fresh air and looks at the trees and sees the wildlife. So that person may, I believe, feel less inclined to then go to a fast food joint and binge on unhealthy food because they're feeling a level of soul nourishment or spiritual satisfaction or to put it, you know, in more secular terms they're just feeling healthy and because I believe that consumer society feeds on people being out of balance. And so somebody who, who might identify as atheist or secular can still engage in practices that would help to promote inner balance.

Tom Raftery: 35:41

Okay, that makes sense. Looking forward, What are your hopes and goals for the Interfaith Centre for Sustainable Development and its impact on the global climate movement?

Yonatan Neril: 35:58

Well, moving forward, we are trying to launch a faith climate action fund. This fund would work to scale the religion and ecology movement. Currently the religion and ecology movement receives a drop in the bucket of overall philanthropy and only a fraction of climate philanthropy. As a result, the religion ecology movement has hundreds of organizations that are doing important work. But many of those organizations are operating with, with very tiny budgets, and many of them have actually only one staff member or totally volunteer. So this Faith Climate Action Fund has the vision to scale the movement by receiving tens of millions of dollars in order to invest five or ten million dollars a year to fund these faith based organizations doing climate and ecological work.

Tom Raftery: 37:05

Okay. Okay. What advice would you give to young people who are passionate about climate action, but might feel overwhelmed by the enormity of the challenge?

Yonatan Neril: 37:20

So this is another important aspect of why bringing religion on board for climate action is so important. Many young people today are feeling a sense of despair. They're reading what climate scientists are saying, they're reading the news, and they're looking at the future, you know, two years from now, five years, ten years, twenty years, and they're saying, what type of world am I going to be living in? What type of world is our current lifestyle generating? And, and so, and many of them are, are feeling such a level of despair that they're actually not even sure what to do. They're not even sure whether any level of action is going to do something. I, I was at a Sabbath meal last year and I met a some parents came up to me with their young daughter, who's about 12 years old, and they expressed the level of, of despair that she's feeling. So I said to them, well, you know, does your clergy, does your rabbi talk about this at the school? Cause they, cause she, their, their daughter was hearing from their science teacher who was teaching them climate science. And and so one of the things that I think that religion can also bring to the table in the climate crisis is giving people a sense of hope. Now, hope, I understand, is grounded in action where it's not just being optimistic, which is just sort of having a a feeling like, yeah, the future will be good, but hope is the belief that we can change our behavior and that, and so therefore in many faith traditions, they do provide this sense of hope. In, in the, in the, the faith based traditions that, that have a God belief that hope is one that believes that if we take action to engage in climate repentance and to change our ways, to change our lifestyles, then the supreme being, the source of all being will also respond in kind, that we're not alone in this. As Rabbi Nachman of Bratislav said, if you believe that it's possible to degrade, then you should believe that it's possible to repair. And so, you know, I don't know what's going to be in the future, in 10, 20 years. But I do know that we need to change and that if we engage in change, then there could be all sorts of processes that will come into balance as a result of our change. Al Gore talks about how if we stop, if we reach net zero climate, carbon emissions, then the earth will hopefully come back into balance. You know, there are people who talk about positive feedback loops in the sense of things sort of falling apart, but it's not necessarily the case. We, the earth systems are so complex that we don't really know what's happening. And that, and that, you know, this spiritual belief is that if we come to live at a higher level of spiritual awareness, then, then the earth will also change. That there will be a new earth. According to the mystical Jewish teaching based on the Zohar, the mystical book, there are five levels of soul awareness and within those five levels, there's five levels. There's actually 25 levels. The current level that humanity is operating on is at the, might be considered to be at the lowest level, which is why consumer society feeds off of this and why we're addicted to a consumer, a materialistic lifestyle. But as we raise our level of spiritual awareness, and as humanity does this, for many faith traditions, then we're going to see shifts in, on Earth, that it might be hard for us to envision at this time. And so that's, that's a faith. That's a hope that we can change and that the future will be better once we change.

Tom Raftery: 41:36

Nice. Okay, cool. Yonatan, we're coming towards the end of the podcast now. Is there any question I haven't asked that you wish I had, or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to be aware of?

Yonatan Neril: 41:54

Well, I would just also, you know, go back to this topic of food. Food is an important part of the climate crisis, even though people tend to focus on, you know, fossil fuels and how to decarbonize. But the, the fact that there's a billion cows that are on planet earth right now, mostly used for producing milk and butter and cream for ice cream, as well as meat for steaks and hamburgers. And the fact that there's 24 billion chickens. These are significant things And, and which goes back to the relation between spiritual wisdom and ethical consumption. You know, what is going to help humanity to, to eat a more plant based diet? Well, part so part of the commentaries in EcoBible are pointing out the different views of of, of, of Jewish sages over the millennia that relate to how we relate to animals. And those views were written before factory farming, which is really only a 20th century invention. You know, we didn't used to eat eggs the way that we eat eggs today. That was because the first vaccine for chickens was in 1956. Prior to that, if you put a thousand chickens in a shed and then one of them got sick, then many of the chickens would die. So, so, you know, part of the sort of reorientation that I think we're, we're, we're starting to see and that we're going to see more of is not just about how do we move around and transport ourselves and on buses and trains and bicycles and cars and airplanes, but also what type of food do we put into our mouths? How do we nourish ourselves? And how do we do that in a way that is both sustainable and spiritually aware. I say in that, that in the English language, there's no word that encapsulates this idea of spiritual sustainability. You need multiple words, religion and ecology, religion and climate. But part of what I've tried to communicate with you is that there's this principle of spiritual sustainability of where a person engages in an action, whether it's walking in, in, in nature or engaging with community in a, in a sacred meal that is also plant based. Of where these actions are both spiritual and sustainable at the same time, or that there's actually, it's actually one action that the, the spirituality and sustainability come together and, and that I think is a shift that, that the more that humanity embraces it, the more we're going to see significant changes.

Tom Raftery: 44:46

Okay. Very good. Yonatan, if people would like to know more about yourself or EcoBible or any of the things we discussed in the podcast today, where would you have me direct them?

Yonatan Neril: 45:00

Well, we have a website, interfaithsustain. com And we're active on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube. We have the largest religion and ecology channel on YouTube with 330 videos. And we also have a blog on our website and you can read about us on Wikipedia as well. The Interfaith Center for Sustainable Development. Those are a few of the channels that you can see us on.

Tom Raftery: 45:29

Fantastic. I'll put links to those in the show notes, Yonatan, so people can find them. Great. Super. Yonatan, thanks a million. It's been a fascinating conversation. Thanks for coming on the podcast today.

Yonatan Neril: 45:40

Thank you so much. And I'm grateful to everyone who's listening and hopefully we'll enable the next generation to inherit a thriving, sustainable, and spiritually aware planet. And if I could just end with this short story that the Nobel laureate, Tony Morrison taught of a young boy who comes to an elder woman with a bird in his hands, and he says to the woman, can you tell me whether the bird in my hands is alive or dead? And the woman looks at the boy and realizes that he's playing a trick on her because if she says that the bird is dead, he will open his hands and release the bird and she will be wrong. And if she says that the bird is alive, then he will crush the bird in his hands. And again, she'll be wrong. He's got her coming and going. And so she looks at the boy and she says to him, I don't know whether the bird in your hands is alive or dead, all I know is that the life of the bird is in your hands. Thank you so much.

Tom Raftery: 46:46

Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about the Climate Confident podcast, feel free to drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you like the show, please don't forget to click follow on it in your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks. Catch you all next time.