Revolutionary War Shipwrecks of New Jersey with Capt. Steve Nagiewicz

The Mullica River in southern New Jersey was a haven for American privateers, who in the fall of 1778 had eighteen captured British vessels at anchor, their cargoes delivered to Washington's army.  Sir Henry Clinton sent a raiding party from New York, which burned the ships and the town of Chestnut Neck.  The town rebuilt quickly, but the wrecks lay undisturbed on the river bottom until archaeologists discovered them.  We talk with Captain Steve Nagiewicz, mariner, faculty member at Stockton University, diver, and underwater archaeologist about the search for these vessels (he has enlisted his Stockton University students in the search) and what we can learn about the maritime Revolution from the wrecks beneath the surface.  Captain Nagiewicz is also the author of the Hidden History of Maritime New Jersey, which tells the story of other New Jersey shipwrecks.   

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
 00:00:00.831 --> 00:00:01.651
 Hello, everyone.
 
 00:00:01.792 --> 00:00:04.174
 Welcome to the Revolution 250 podcast.
 
 00:00:04.674 --> 00:00:05.455
 I'm Bob Allison.
 
 00:00:05.495 --> 00:00:07.296
 I chair the Rev 250 advisory group.
 
 00:00:07.336 --> 00:00:09.377
 We are a consortium of about
 
 00:00:09.377 --> 00:00:10.739
 75 or so organizations in
 
 00:00:10.759 --> 00:00:11.778
 Massachusetts planning
 
 00:00:11.798 --> 00:00:12.699
 commemorations of the
 
 00:00:12.740 --> 00:00:14.381
 beginnings of the American Revolution.
 
 00:00:14.922 --> 00:00:16.763
 And our guest today is Steve Nagowitz.
 
 00:00:16.843 --> 00:00:20.606
 And Steve Nagowitz, man of many talents.
 
 00:00:20.786 --> 00:00:22.407
 He, for 40 years, has been,
 
 00:00:22.446 --> 00:00:24.528
 he's actually a shipmaster,
 
 00:00:24.969 --> 00:00:26.250
 a licensed shipmaster.
 
 00:00:26.469 --> 00:00:28.271
 And for 40 years, he's been
 
 00:00:28.931 --> 00:00:30.553
 scuba diving and done all
 
 00:00:30.612 --> 00:00:32.234
 kinds of work as an
 
 00:00:32.533 --> 00:00:35.015
 underwater archaeologist explorer.
 
 00:00:35.034 --> 00:00:36.576
 He teaches at Stockton State,
 
 00:00:36.595 --> 00:00:38.457
 Stockton University in New Jersey.
 
 00:00:38.476 --> 00:00:39.597
 He's also his alma mater.
 
 00:00:39.976 --> 00:00:41.177
 So Steve, thanks for joining us.
 
 00:00:42.037 --> 00:00:42.478
 My pleasure.
 
 00:00:42.539 --> 00:00:43.158
 Thanks for having me.
 
 00:00:44.054 --> 00:00:45.734
 And Steve, as you just saw on the slide,
 
 00:00:45.975 --> 00:00:48.337
 is the author of The Hidden
 
 00:00:48.377 --> 00:00:50.177
 History of Maritime New Jersey,
 
 00:00:50.518 --> 00:00:51.558
 which looks at a number of
 
 00:00:51.618 --> 00:00:53.619
 different underwater artifacts,
 
 00:00:53.659 --> 00:00:55.100
 underwater shipwrecks on
 
 00:00:55.121 --> 00:00:56.061
 the coast of New Jersey,
 
 00:00:57.182 --> 00:00:59.003
 and also has written an
 
 00:00:59.063 --> 00:00:59.984
 essay that will be in this
 
 00:01:00.024 --> 00:01:01.125
 book called Archaeology of
 
 00:01:01.164 --> 00:01:02.244
 the American Revolution
 
 00:01:02.304 --> 00:01:03.845
 coming up next year from
 
 00:01:03.886 --> 00:01:05.287
 the University of Florida Press.
 
 00:01:05.828 --> 00:01:06.408
 And that's what we're going
 
 00:01:06.427 --> 00:01:06.968
 to talk about today.
 
 00:01:07.108 --> 00:01:07.388
 Actually,
 
 00:01:07.429 --> 00:01:09.090
 this really exciting series of
 
 00:01:09.150 --> 00:01:10.069
 events that happened
 
 00:01:11.510 --> 00:01:13.852
 In southern New Jersey, near Egg Harbor,
 
 00:01:13.893 --> 00:01:14.914
 the Battle of Chestnut
 
 00:01:14.974 --> 00:01:16.956
 Point and other things.
 
 00:01:16.975 --> 00:01:17.436
 So, Steve,
 
 00:01:18.578 --> 00:01:20.099
 can you tell us first how you
 
 00:01:20.200 --> 00:01:21.099
 got interest,
 
 00:01:21.180 --> 00:01:22.462
 how you found out about the
 
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 Battle of Chestnut Point?
 
 00:01:23.462 --> 00:01:24.683
 And then we can talk about what happened.
 
 00:01:27.685 --> 00:01:29.725
 I don't even remember how many years ago,
 
 00:01:29.885 --> 00:01:31.966
 but a friend of mine who was a lawyer,
 
 00:01:32.087 --> 00:01:32.706
 Peter Hess,
 
 00:01:33.367 --> 00:01:35.248
 he was diving with some friends,
 
 00:01:35.549 --> 00:01:36.968
 Jack Fulmer and a few other
 
 00:01:37.009 --> 00:01:40.911
 people from way back in my past,
 
 00:01:41.111 --> 00:01:42.632
 diving in a river in the Mullica.
 
 00:01:43.471 --> 00:01:45.534
 It was, they said, an old shipwreck,
 
 00:01:45.713 --> 00:01:46.515
 and they found an old
 
 00:01:46.614 --> 00:01:47.915
 cannon and anchor on it.
 
 00:01:48.596 --> 00:01:49.537
 And that was my first
 
 00:01:49.617 --> 00:01:52.599
 exposure to not only the
 
 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:54.840
 Revolutionary War kind of shipwrecks,
 
 00:01:54.941 --> 00:01:58.373
 but diving in a mucky river in 10,
 
 00:01:58.373 --> 00:02:00.126
 15 feet of water when I had
 
 00:02:00.165 --> 00:02:02.486
 to measure the length of my
 
 00:02:02.548 --> 00:02:03.968
 knuckles on my hand to
 
 00:02:04.069 --> 00:02:05.829
 measure what the wreck was
 
 00:02:05.849 --> 00:02:08.391
 size-wise because the
 
 00:02:08.412 --> 00:02:09.633
 visibility was so poor.
 
 00:02:09.652 --> 00:02:09.793
 Wow.
 
 00:02:10.778 --> 00:02:12.740
 But it was exciting for me
 
 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:14.681
 as a relatively new and
 
 00:02:14.741 --> 00:02:16.842
 young diver to dive into history.
 
 00:02:17.562 --> 00:02:18.342
 And it was one of the
 
 00:02:18.383 --> 00:02:19.742
 reasons I got into scuba
 
 00:02:19.763 --> 00:02:22.625
 diving was when I dove my first shipwreck,
 
 00:02:23.405 --> 00:02:24.725
 I was hooked on the history.
 
 00:02:24.786 --> 00:02:26.366
 I wanted to know how it got there.
 
 00:02:26.387 --> 00:02:27.287
 What happened?
 
 00:02:27.887 --> 00:02:28.948
 Did people die?
 
 00:02:29.824 --> 00:02:31.064
 The idea of treasure never
 
 00:02:31.164 --> 00:02:32.564
 entered into my mind until
 
 00:02:32.625 --> 00:02:33.825
 I started doing research
 
 00:02:33.846 --> 00:02:34.746
 and finding that some of
 
 00:02:34.786 --> 00:02:36.067
 them probably had things on
 
 00:02:36.127 --> 00:02:37.026
 board that were valuable.
 
 00:02:37.826 --> 00:02:39.048
 But it was the history of
 
 00:02:39.288 --> 00:02:40.367
 all the wrecks that I was
 
 00:02:40.448 --> 00:02:41.669
 fascinated with and would
 
 00:02:41.748 --> 00:02:43.169
 ultimately lead to the book.
 
 00:02:45.347 --> 00:02:46.206
 With Stockton,
 
 00:02:46.727 --> 00:02:48.328
 I had the capability with
 
 00:02:48.548 --> 00:02:50.348
 their technology and boats
 
 00:02:51.548 --> 00:02:54.649
 to do the archaeology on
 
 00:02:54.868 --> 00:02:56.209
 the Battle of Chestnut Neck,
 
 00:02:56.929 --> 00:03:00.050
 which was a pivotal battle
 
 00:03:00.129 --> 00:03:03.730
 of private captains, not unlike me,
 
 00:03:04.670 --> 00:03:06.390
 who volunteered their time
 
 00:03:06.450 --> 00:03:08.852
 and their boat to hijack
 
 00:03:09.092 --> 00:03:12.573
 ships to supply Washington's army.
 
 00:03:14.432 --> 00:03:14.673
 If it
 
 00:03:15.514 --> 00:03:17.074
 Washington relied on the
 
 00:03:17.155 --> 00:03:19.116
 sale of private goods,
 
 00:03:19.276 --> 00:03:21.796
 captured ships to finance
 
 00:03:21.856 --> 00:03:24.037
 his campaign against the British.
 
 00:03:24.556 --> 00:03:26.397
 Without this dream of privateers,
 
 00:03:26.457 --> 00:03:27.277
 there probably wouldn't
 
 00:03:27.318 --> 00:03:28.258
 have been a revolution
 
 00:03:28.277 --> 00:03:29.919
 because a lot of the
 
 00:03:29.979 --> 00:03:32.299
 farmers quit their farms to
 
 00:03:32.338 --> 00:03:34.099
 become soldiers to battle the British.
 
 00:03:34.620 --> 00:03:36.021
 But they still wanted to be paid,
 
 00:03:36.081 --> 00:03:38.245
 and money had to come from somewhere.
 
 00:03:38.504 --> 00:03:38.906
 Right, right.
 
 00:03:39.325 --> 00:03:40.587
 And these privateers
 
 00:03:40.707 --> 00:03:42.210
 operating in the area
 
 00:03:42.229 --> 00:03:43.431
 around Egg Harbor were
 
 00:03:43.471 --> 00:03:44.492
 actually very successful.
 
 00:03:44.532 --> 00:03:46.034
 They seemed to be very good
 
 00:03:46.254 --> 00:03:48.818
 at it and creating a great
 
 00:03:48.877 --> 00:03:50.961
 supply line for the Continental Army.
 
 00:03:52.480 --> 00:03:54.342
 And the British knew that too.
 
 00:03:54.443 --> 00:03:55.843
 It's citizens in New York
 
 00:03:55.883 --> 00:03:58.025
 city were complaining that
 
 00:03:58.085 --> 00:03:59.325
 they weren't getting the
 
 00:03:59.406 --> 00:04:00.847
 goods that they ordered
 
 00:04:01.027 --> 00:04:02.429
 because the ships would be
 
 00:04:02.489 --> 00:04:03.909
 hijacked on their way up
 
 00:04:03.990 --> 00:04:05.711
 from Philadelphia and point South.
 
 00:04:06.651 --> 00:04:08.872
 And it got to not unlike
 
 00:04:09.394 --> 00:04:11.776
 today's economy where, you know,
 
 00:04:12.015 --> 00:04:13.076
 COVID and a few other
 
 00:04:13.116 --> 00:04:14.638
 things slowed the stream of
 
 00:04:14.677 --> 00:04:16.298
 shipping and people were complaining.
 
 00:04:16.338 --> 00:04:17.519
 We weren't getting what we
 
 00:04:17.579 --> 00:04:18.740
 wanted or what we ordered.
 
 00:04:19.581 --> 00:04:19.942
 So again,
 
 00:04:21.459 --> 00:04:23.261
 General Clinton in New York,
 
 00:04:23.300 --> 00:04:24.882
 who had succeeded General Howe,
 
 00:04:25.461 --> 00:04:26.663
 sent a fleet of British
 
 00:04:26.723 --> 00:04:28.423
 ships and two or three
 
 00:04:28.504 --> 00:04:30.904
 hundred British Marines and
 
 00:04:31.084 --> 00:04:33.447
 Loyalists to destroy this
 
 00:04:34.086 --> 00:04:36.247
 privateer base at Chestnut Neck,
 
 00:04:36.788 --> 00:04:40.610
 which is just inland of Little Egg Inlet,
 
 00:04:40.870 --> 00:04:42.190
 Little Egg Bay.
 
 00:04:43.711 --> 00:04:46.533
 It's a fairly unsignificant
 
 00:04:46.754 --> 00:04:49.014
 river in New Jersey, but
 
 00:04:49.535 --> 00:04:51.516
 historically for the Revolutionary War,
 
 00:04:51.716 --> 00:04:53.999
 it was the conduit for the
 
 00:04:54.038 --> 00:04:55.821
 privateers to ship those
 
 00:04:56.120 --> 00:04:58.543
 captured supplies up the
 
 00:04:58.603 --> 00:05:00.365
 river across the state to
 
 00:05:00.425 --> 00:05:01.404
 Washington's army,
 
 00:05:01.505 --> 00:05:03.286
 either in the Philadelphia
 
 00:05:03.387 --> 00:05:04.487
 area or Morristown.
 
 00:05:05.949 --> 00:05:06.509
 It's amazing.
 
 00:05:06.649 --> 00:05:07.810
 Do we know anything, Steve,
 
 00:05:07.850 --> 00:05:08.752
 about these guys?
 
 00:05:08.831 --> 00:05:10.052
 I mean, who the captains were?
 
 00:05:11.586 --> 00:05:12.689
 We know who some of the
 
 00:05:12.869 --> 00:05:15.533
 captains were in some of the ships.
 
 00:05:15.673 --> 00:05:16.613
 One of the more prominent
 
 00:05:16.754 --> 00:05:18.997
 ones was Captain Richard Summers.
 
 00:05:19.959 --> 00:05:20.639
 Summers Point,
 
 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:22.283
 New Jersey is named for him.
 
 00:05:22.863 --> 00:05:25.127
 He ultimately died overseas
 
 00:05:25.247 --> 00:05:26.569
 in other battles.
 
 00:05:28.413 --> 00:05:29.774
 the sons and daughters of
 
 00:05:29.814 --> 00:05:31.134
 the American Revolution,
 
 00:05:31.795 --> 00:05:33.576
 as your listeners all know,
 
 00:05:33.776 --> 00:05:35.235
 trace their ancestry back
 
 00:05:35.295 --> 00:05:36.396
 to those time periods.
 
 00:05:37.096 --> 00:05:38.497
 And a lot of them have told
 
 00:05:38.536 --> 00:05:40.577
 me stories about the local captains,
 
 00:05:40.677 --> 00:05:41.677
 and they've showed me some
 
 00:05:41.697 --> 00:05:43.038
 of the documentation passed
 
 00:05:43.057 --> 00:05:43.959
 down through families.
 
 00:05:44.559 --> 00:05:46.759
 So you can see the day-to-day life,
 
 00:05:46.899 --> 00:05:51.401
 even to the point of a man who died or
 
 00:05:52.192 --> 00:05:53.814
 His wife died and remarried
 
 00:05:53.913 --> 00:05:56.336
 and it was correspondence,
 
 00:05:56.396 --> 00:05:57.536
 personal correspondence
 
 00:05:57.656 --> 00:05:59.038
 jockeying for position as
 
 00:05:59.098 --> 00:06:00.240
 to where the wives would be
 
 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:01.540
 buried next to their husbands.
 
 00:06:02.021 --> 00:06:03.141
 The personal information
 
 00:06:03.161 --> 00:06:04.262
 that all families have,
 
 00:06:04.702 --> 00:06:05.983
 but it was unique to the
 
 00:06:06.024 --> 00:06:07.324
 fact that this was taking
 
 00:06:07.384 --> 00:06:11.077
 place as we battled the British in 1777,
 
 00:06:11.077 --> 00:06:12.688
 1778.
 
 00:06:12.689 --> 00:06:14.189
 So General Clinton knows
 
 00:06:14.269 --> 00:06:15.209
 about this nest of
 
 00:06:15.250 --> 00:06:17.331
 privateers in Chestnut Neck,
 
 00:06:17.350 --> 00:06:18.692
 so he does send this force.
 
 00:06:19.132 --> 00:06:20.391
 Did the folks in Chestnut
 
 00:06:20.432 --> 00:06:21.473
 Neck have any inkling that
 
 00:06:21.492 --> 00:06:23.894
 the British were on their way to attack?
 
 00:06:24.033 --> 00:06:25.754
 And what would the British have found?
 
 00:06:25.795 --> 00:06:27.834
 How many ships would have been there?
 
 00:06:27.975 --> 00:06:29.255
 I mean, how many had they taken?
 
 00:06:30.757 --> 00:06:32.617
 Documents say they sent 10 ships,
 
 00:06:32.757 --> 00:06:35.117
 including their newest, the HMS Zebra,
 
 00:06:35.158 --> 00:06:37.478
 which was a fully outfitted
 
 00:06:37.598 --> 00:06:39.379
 warship with cannon and troops,
 
 00:06:40.100 --> 00:06:41.420
 and a bunch of smaller
 
 00:06:42.201 --> 00:06:43.702
 sailing ships and barges
 
 00:06:43.783 --> 00:06:46.064
 that carried the complement
 
 00:06:46.725 --> 00:06:48.026
 of soldiers they needed to
 
 00:06:48.086 --> 00:06:49.007
 take over the fort.
 
 00:06:50.788 --> 00:06:54.891
 They were there to stop these privateers,
 
 00:06:55.591 --> 00:06:56.812
 capture the supplies.
 
 00:06:56.833 --> 00:06:58.093
 And in the meantime,
 
 00:06:58.574 --> 00:07:01.216
 as they went through the, imagine,
 
 00:07:01.795 --> 00:07:02.817
 take a step back and
 
 00:07:03.538 --> 00:07:04.999
 If any of you have ever sailed,
 
 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:06.500
 you know that a sailing
 
 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:09.581
 ship just doesn't move left
 
 00:07:09.661 --> 00:07:12.180
 or right easily and you have to tack.
 
 00:07:12.701 --> 00:07:13.701
 Now imagine you're in a
 
 00:07:13.781 --> 00:07:15.002
 river that's maybe only a
 
 00:07:15.062 --> 00:07:16.543
 couple of hundred feet across,
 
 00:07:17.182 --> 00:07:18.322
 difficult to navigate.
 
 00:07:18.523 --> 00:07:21.363
 So British prize in New York
 
 00:07:22.004 --> 00:07:23.463
 for General Washington had
 
 00:07:23.543 --> 00:07:24.605
 told them they were coming.
 
 00:07:25.004 --> 00:07:26.365
 The people in Chestnut Neck
 
 00:07:26.584 --> 00:07:27.906
 absolutely knew the British
 
 00:07:27.946 --> 00:07:28.985
 were coming for a week.
 
 00:07:29.565 --> 00:07:31.387
 They took everything of value,
 
 00:07:31.487 --> 00:07:33.009
 shipped it up the Mullica
 
 00:07:33.149 --> 00:07:35.290
 to Batstow and points
 
 00:07:35.531 --> 00:07:37.512
 inland so the British couldn't get it.
 
 00:07:38.012 --> 00:07:39.533
 So essentially, when the British came,
 
 00:07:39.713 --> 00:07:41.475
 they destroyed their own
 
 00:07:41.596 --> 00:07:43.396
 ships in the harbor and
 
 00:07:43.476 --> 00:07:44.778
 they burned the town.
 
 00:07:45.358 --> 00:07:47.759
 But the buildings were made out of wood.
 
 00:07:47.899 --> 00:07:48.581
 Within a month,
 
 00:07:48.661 --> 00:07:49.901
 they were back in business.
 
 00:07:50.362 --> 00:07:51.963
 Never again as powerful,
 
 00:07:52.064 --> 00:07:53.125
 but it was one of the
 
 00:07:53.285 --> 00:07:55.386
 biggest supply chains at
 
 00:07:55.446 --> 00:07:57.208
 that time during the Revolutionary War.
 
 00:07:58.127 --> 00:07:59.189
 And the 10 ships that the
 
 00:07:59.228 --> 00:08:00.369
 British burned actually
 
 00:08:00.408 --> 00:08:02.269
 were ships the Americans had captured,
 
 00:08:02.290 --> 00:08:03.891
 that these privateers had captured.
 
 00:08:04.490 --> 00:08:05.170
 Is that right?
 
 00:08:05.190 --> 00:08:05.312
 Sure.
 
 00:08:05.411 --> 00:08:06.312
 They were British ships.
 
 00:08:06.372 --> 00:08:07.351
 They were French ships.
 
 00:08:07.413 --> 00:08:08.473
 There were some Spanish.
 
 00:08:10.014 --> 00:08:11.454
 One of my graduate students
 
 00:08:12.235 --> 00:08:13.754
 did a lot of work through
 
 00:08:13.894 --> 00:08:15.255
 the New York Public Library
 
 00:08:15.336 --> 00:08:16.557
 tracking down all the
 
 00:08:16.617 --> 00:08:18.057
 newspapers of the time,
 
 00:08:18.538 --> 00:08:19.798
 which would always list the
 
 00:08:19.838 --> 00:08:21.399
 comings and goings of ships
 
 00:08:21.519 --> 00:08:22.519
 because that's how people
 
 00:08:22.559 --> 00:08:23.100
 got their goods.
 
 00:08:23.139 --> 00:08:23.319
 Right.
 
 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:27.002
 We narrowed 100 ships down
 
 00:08:27.423 --> 00:08:28.262
 that would have gone
 
 00:08:28.302 --> 00:08:29.783
 through Chestnut Neck in
 
 00:08:29.884 --> 00:08:35.528
 October of 1778 to maybe 30 or 40.
 
 00:08:35.528 --> 00:08:37.250
 And out of those 30 or 40,
 
 00:08:37.250 --> 00:08:38.630
 there are 10 shipwrecks,
 
 00:08:39.230 --> 00:08:41.893
 of which we've found four so far.
 
 00:08:42.413 --> 00:08:44.154
 The rest are probably buried somewhere.
 
 00:08:44.565 --> 00:08:46.345
 as the river and tidal
 
 00:08:46.384 --> 00:08:48.525
 currents move that mud back and forth.
 
 00:08:48.605 --> 00:08:50.706
 But the names will elude us
 
 00:08:50.826 --> 00:08:51.966
 because the shipwrecks that
 
 00:08:52.006 --> 00:08:54.106
 are there are basically the
 
 00:08:54.147 --> 00:08:55.947
 last two or three feet of a
 
 00:08:56.027 --> 00:08:57.187
 wooden ship that's been
 
 00:08:57.268 --> 00:08:58.827
 burned and covered over by
 
 00:08:58.827 --> 00:09:00.668
 250 years of river.
 
 00:09:02.288 --> 00:09:03.109
 And then other things,
 
 00:09:03.408 --> 00:09:05.610
 you might have been on them, anchors,
 
 00:09:05.710 --> 00:09:06.370
 cannon.
 
 00:09:06.409 --> 00:09:07.730
 Has any of that been found?
 
 00:09:09.224 --> 00:09:12.365
 There are some cannon that were recovered.
 
 00:09:13.605 --> 00:09:15.586
 They're in various locations now.
 
 00:09:16.245 --> 00:09:17.746
 We found an anchor a few
 
 00:09:17.807 --> 00:09:19.508
 years ago in a spot where
 
 00:09:19.927 --> 00:09:21.227
 one of the wrecks, the bead wreck,
 
 00:09:21.388 --> 00:09:22.288
 would have been anchored.
 
 00:09:23.849 --> 00:09:25.389
 Hard to say that it's an
 
 00:09:25.529 --> 00:09:26.889
 anchor from that area,
 
 00:09:27.570 --> 00:09:29.451
 but the anchor was from the
 
 00:09:29.490 --> 00:09:31.792
 location where the bead wreck now sits.
 
 00:09:32.491 --> 00:09:34.432
 And it's named the bead wreck because
 
 00:09:35.373 --> 00:09:36.474
 When we were diving it,
 
 00:09:36.554 --> 00:09:38.076
 we would find little glass
 
 00:09:38.176 --> 00:09:40.119
 beads that were used for
 
 00:09:40.178 --> 00:09:41.701
 jewelry or trading with the
 
 00:09:41.760 --> 00:09:44.023
 local Lenape Indians as a
 
 00:09:44.202 --> 00:09:44.964
 bartering system.
 
 00:09:45.745 --> 00:09:46.306
 That's amazing.
 
 00:09:46.645 --> 00:09:47.547
 So the ships, I mean,
 
 00:09:47.687 --> 00:09:48.969
 you have names for them,
 
 00:09:48.989 --> 00:09:49.730
 but those have all been
 
 00:09:49.750 --> 00:09:51.871
 given by you and others who
 
 00:09:51.932 --> 00:09:53.374
 have been discovering them
 
 00:09:53.394 --> 00:09:54.095
 or uncovering them.
 
 00:09:54.998 --> 00:09:57.799
 For context, usually by location,
 
 00:09:57.879 --> 00:09:59.181
 the bead wreck got named
 
 00:09:59.321 --> 00:10:01.562
 because we found beads on it.
 
 00:10:01.761 --> 00:10:03.663
 So that kind of made some sense.
 
 00:10:05.203 --> 00:10:05.904
 And those beads,
 
 00:10:06.404 --> 00:10:07.426
 most of those beads are
 
 00:10:07.466 --> 00:10:08.725
 sitting in a jar at the New
 
 00:10:08.745 --> 00:10:10.126
 Jersey Museum in Trenton.
 
 00:10:10.807 --> 00:10:13.308
 The fall wreck was named for Bill Fall,
 
 00:10:13.349 --> 00:10:14.950
 who was a NOAA fishery
 
 00:10:15.009 --> 00:10:16.150
 scientist who taught science.
 
 00:10:16.871 --> 00:10:17.991
 marine archaeology at
 
 00:10:18.052 --> 00:10:19.513
 Stockton before I got there.
 
 00:10:20.413 --> 00:10:21.594
 And it only seemed fitting.
 
 00:10:21.693 --> 00:10:23.014
 He was the first to find it
 
 00:10:23.214 --> 00:10:25.375
 by dragging a sonar through the river.
 
 00:10:25.995 --> 00:10:27.215
 So we named it after him.
 
 00:10:27.274 --> 00:10:28.735
 He ultimately died on an
 
 00:10:28.836 --> 00:10:30.336
 expedition up the Amazon.
 
 00:10:31.216 --> 00:10:32.876
 So fitting name for him.
 
 00:10:33.956 --> 00:10:35.837
 The Kramer wreck is located
 
 00:10:36.738 --> 00:10:38.178
 right in the town of
 
 00:10:38.278 --> 00:10:41.100
 Chestnut Neck at the Kramer Marina,
 
 00:10:41.460 --> 00:10:43.039
 which traces its history
 
 00:10:43.259 --> 00:10:45.972
 all the way back to 1778.
 
 00:10:45.972 --> 00:10:47.052
 So that was simply,
 
 00:10:48.033 --> 00:10:50.014
 it's right at that marina.
 
 00:10:51.115 --> 00:10:52.455
 And the last wreck we found
 
 00:10:52.475 --> 00:10:55.355
 a year or so ago is called the Nagswreck.
 
 00:10:55.716 --> 00:10:57.096
 And that was just simply
 
 00:10:57.797 --> 00:10:59.758
 probably my vanity saying I found it.
 
 00:11:00.577 --> 00:11:00.998
 Okay.
 
 00:11:03.678 --> 00:11:04.739
 And you said in one of your
 
 00:11:04.778 --> 00:11:06.480
 essays about finding one at
 
 00:11:06.500 --> 00:11:07.919
 a bend in the river and you
 
 00:11:07.940 --> 00:11:09.120
 thought as a sailor,
 
 00:11:09.160 --> 00:11:10.120
 this was a place where I
 
 00:11:10.160 --> 00:11:11.421
 would moor a sailboat and
 
 00:11:11.541 --> 00:11:13.081
 thinking it makes sense.
 
 00:11:13.913 --> 00:11:15.715
 And in my classes,
 
 00:11:15.835 --> 00:11:18.696
 I challenged my students,
 
 00:11:19.255 --> 00:11:20.677
 for what you know about ships,
 
 00:11:20.756 --> 00:11:21.476
 here's the river,
 
 00:11:21.976 --> 00:11:24.217
 where would you anchor 10 ships?
 
 00:11:25.118 --> 00:11:26.099
 And they put all that
 
 00:11:26.139 --> 00:11:27.099
 information together.
 
 00:11:27.139 --> 00:11:28.759
 And then we hooked the sonar
 
 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:29.980
 up on one of Stockton's
 
 00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:31.160
 boats and started to go
 
 00:11:31.181 --> 00:11:33.181
 through the river to look in those places,
 
 00:11:34.062 --> 00:11:35.761
 knowing that over 240 years,
 
 00:11:38.183 --> 00:11:42.288
 The river will change the banks by erosion,
 
 00:11:42.568 --> 00:11:44.591
 tidal forces and the river moving down.
 
 00:11:45.532 --> 00:11:46.452
 Some were uncovered,
 
 00:11:46.533 --> 00:11:47.974
 some are probably still buried.
 
 00:11:49.760 --> 00:11:52.623
 They built a new bridge over the river,
 
 00:11:53.144 --> 00:11:54.485
 the Garden State Parkway.
 
 00:11:54.705 --> 00:11:56.306
 And I believe a lot of that
 
 00:11:56.405 --> 00:11:58.488
 dredging probably damaged
 
 00:11:58.607 --> 00:12:00.548
 an area where we will never
 
 00:12:00.609 --> 00:12:01.309
 find shipwrecks.
 
 00:12:01.549 --> 00:12:02.289
 Right, right.
 
 00:12:02.850 --> 00:12:05.133
 So can we talk, I mean,
 
 00:12:05.173 --> 00:12:06.874
 it's a very winding river
 
 00:12:06.953 --> 00:12:08.355
 when we looked at that map.
 
 00:12:08.495 --> 00:12:09.576
 And so you said it was a
 
 00:12:09.635 --> 00:12:11.397
 catching anchor that you found,
 
 00:12:11.476 --> 00:12:12.337
 which would have been used
 
 00:12:12.357 --> 00:12:13.918
 to move the ships around
 
 00:12:14.019 --> 00:12:14.639
 because you really
 
 00:12:15.615 --> 00:12:17.394
 You have to rely on wind and tide,
 
 00:12:17.495 --> 00:12:18.655
 and in a river like that,
 
 00:12:18.676 --> 00:12:20.135
 that's going to be very complicated.
 
 00:12:21.615 --> 00:12:22.616
 Before we get into the
 
 00:12:22.657 --> 00:12:24.856
 techniques of navigating a winding river,
 
 00:12:24.897 --> 00:12:25.057
 though,
 
 00:12:25.076 --> 00:12:27.097
 can we talk a little bit about the
 
 00:12:27.138 --> 00:12:28.918
 sonar and how you actually
 
 00:12:28.977 --> 00:12:30.077
 find these things and what
 
 00:12:30.138 --> 00:12:32.359
 we see if we're using sonar
 
 00:12:32.418 --> 00:12:33.778
 to find a wreck?
 
 00:12:34.158 --> 00:12:36.019
 I mean, you know this better than I do.
 
 00:12:38.104 --> 00:12:41.145
 I have the original sonar
 
 00:12:41.206 --> 00:12:43.967
 picture from 2008,
 
 00:12:43.967 --> 00:12:47.570
 and it's a Klein 3900 sonar.
 
 00:12:47.629 --> 00:12:49.150
 Back then, before digital,
 
 00:12:49.750 --> 00:12:51.793
 it was thermally printed on paper.
 
 00:12:51.852 --> 00:12:53.094
 So what you're looking at on
 
 00:12:53.214 --> 00:12:54.894
 the left side of the image
 
 00:12:54.914 --> 00:12:56.535
 is the far bank of the marsh.
 
 00:12:57.489 --> 00:12:59.089
 And on the right side of the image,
 
 00:12:59.129 --> 00:13:00.990
 that little bend is a
 
 00:13:01.049 --> 00:13:02.350
 section of the marsh and
 
 00:13:02.610 --> 00:13:04.429
 the boat is driving closer to it.
 
 00:13:05.029 --> 00:13:06.390
 And if you see almost in the
 
 00:13:06.471 --> 00:13:08.691
 exact right center of the image,
 
 00:13:08.730 --> 00:13:11.672
 a small oval shape, that's a shipwreck.
 
 00:13:12.331 --> 00:13:13.672
 Or at least at the time,
 
 00:13:13.951 --> 00:13:15.471
 it was presumed to be at
 
 00:13:15.511 --> 00:13:17.113
 least the target of interest.
 
 00:13:17.732 --> 00:13:19.173
 They went back and narrowed
 
 00:13:19.572 --> 00:13:21.072
 the range of the sonar to
 
 00:13:21.113 --> 00:13:22.313
 get a better image of it.
 
 00:13:22.333 --> 00:13:23.573
 It turned out that it really
 
 00:13:23.634 --> 00:13:24.634
 was a shipwreck.
 
 00:13:25.293 --> 00:13:26.995
 And sonar operates under the
 
 00:13:27.035 --> 00:13:29.977
 principle that a tiny sound
 
 00:13:30.057 --> 00:13:31.099
 pulse comes out of the
 
 00:13:31.139 --> 00:13:32.379
 bottom of a transducer
 
 00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:33.159
 underneath the boat,
 
 00:13:33.780 --> 00:13:34.782
 travels to the bottom,
 
 00:13:35.182 --> 00:13:36.322
 reflects off the bottom,
 
 00:13:36.342 --> 00:13:37.344
 and comes back up.
 
 00:13:37.984 --> 00:13:38.565
 Nowadays,
 
 00:13:38.585 --> 00:13:40.446
 a computer system interprets the
 
 00:13:40.466 --> 00:13:42.086
 speed and the intensity of
 
 00:13:42.126 --> 00:13:44.629
 the sonar to literally make an image,
 
 00:13:44.849 --> 00:13:46.350
 just like a mother could
 
 00:13:46.431 --> 00:13:48.711
 see the baby in her womb by
 
 00:13:48.812 --> 00:13:49.832
 using a sonogram.
 
 00:13:50.313 --> 00:13:51.554
 Sonar does the same thing
 
 00:13:51.654 --> 00:13:52.895
 for us on the bottom of the
 
 00:13:52.956 --> 00:13:54.216
 river or the bottom of the ocean.
 
 00:13:54.918 --> 00:13:56.177
 And the image you see here
 
 00:13:56.999 --> 00:13:58.438
 is what's left of the bead
 
 00:13:58.479 --> 00:13:59.979
 wreck and significant
 
 00:14:00.058 --> 00:14:01.480
 because this is what we're
 
 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:03.679
 trying to do at Stockton is
 
 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:05.740
 to record the environmental
 
 00:14:05.780 --> 00:14:06.860
 conditions that are
 
 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:08.520
 degrading the areas of
 
 00:14:08.581 --> 00:14:09.942
 these historic wrecks.
 
 00:14:10.522 --> 00:14:12.701
 And this whole area is on
 
 00:14:12.721 --> 00:14:13.903
 the National Register of
 
 00:14:13.942 --> 00:14:16.322
 Historic Places because of this battle.
 
 00:14:16.842 --> 00:14:17.604
 And you can see where the
 
 00:14:17.663 --> 00:14:18.823
 marsh has collapsed.
 
 00:14:19.703 --> 00:14:22.184
 And a wreck that we dove 40 years ago
 
 00:14:23.788 --> 00:14:25.149
 was in eight feet of water,
 
 00:14:25.190 --> 00:14:26.529
 you could almost stand up
 
 00:14:27.410 --> 00:14:28.610
 and get to the surface.
 
 00:14:29.111 --> 00:14:31.033
 Now it's sitting at 45 feet
 
 00:14:31.212 --> 00:14:32.592
 and will eventually fall
 
 00:14:32.633 --> 00:14:33.854
 into the bottom of the river,
 
 00:14:35.294 --> 00:14:36.634
 totally disarticulate
 
 00:14:36.695 --> 00:14:38.535
 itself more than it is in
 
 00:14:38.596 --> 00:14:40.297
 that image and be gone forever.
 
 00:14:41.116 --> 00:14:42.258
 How deep is the river, Steve?
 
 00:14:43.611 --> 00:14:44.792
 The spot where that is,
 
 00:14:44.893 --> 00:14:46.653
 it gets down to about 60 feet.
 
 00:14:46.873 --> 00:14:48.234
 And a lot of that was the
 
 00:14:48.313 --> 00:14:50.274
 borrow pit to build the
 
 00:14:50.794 --> 00:14:51.894
 supports for the bridge.
 
 00:14:52.535 --> 00:14:55.197
 So the river is probably in
 
 00:14:55.216 --> 00:14:56.437
 the area that we're working,
 
 00:14:56.496 --> 00:14:58.238
 maybe 20 to 30 feet deep.
 
 00:14:58.977 --> 00:15:00.458
 And the rest of the river,
 
 00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:02.759
 as it gets up towards Batstow,
 
 00:15:02.820 --> 00:15:04.240
 which is a major furnace
 
 00:15:04.561 --> 00:15:05.541
 back in the Revolutionary
 
 00:15:05.660 --> 00:15:06.880
 War for iron products,
 
 00:15:07.701 --> 00:15:09.982
 it gets real shallow and 5 to 10 feet.
 
 00:15:11.842 --> 00:15:13.464
 We're talking with Steve Nagowitz,
 
 00:15:13.524 --> 00:15:15.663
 who is an underwater archaeologist,
 
 00:15:15.703 --> 00:15:16.985
 licensed shipmaster,
 
 00:15:17.524 --> 00:15:18.664
 author of Hidden History of
 
 00:15:18.705 --> 00:15:19.846
 Maritime New Jersey,
 
 00:15:20.105 --> 00:15:21.446
 as well as an essay about
 
 00:15:22.687 --> 00:15:23.927
 the Battle of Chestnut
 
 00:15:23.986 --> 00:15:25.467
 Point and the Crosswicks
 
 00:15:25.567 --> 00:15:27.508
 Creek and the role of these
 
 00:15:27.528 --> 00:15:29.149
 places in the American Revolution.
 
 00:15:30.125 --> 00:15:31.307
 and looking at southern New
 
 00:15:31.346 --> 00:15:32.668
 Jersey as a haven for
 
 00:15:32.748 --> 00:15:34.528
 privateers and what's been
 
 00:15:34.568 --> 00:15:35.909
 done to uncover these
 
 00:15:36.029 --> 00:15:39.091
 wrecks of these British vessels,
 
 00:15:39.152 --> 00:15:40.072
 which the privateers of
 
 00:15:40.113 --> 00:15:43.754
 Chestnut Point had captured in 1778.
 
 00:15:43.754 --> 00:15:47.136
 And so the dark areas in the image,
 
 00:15:47.717 --> 00:15:49.018
 that is the bottom of the river,
 
 00:15:49.038 --> 00:15:50.799
 or is that something else?
 
 00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:53.620
 This is a different type of
 
 00:15:53.642 --> 00:15:55.101
 sonar called multi-beam.
 
 00:15:55.682 --> 00:15:57.124
 So instead of side scan,
 
 00:15:57.163 --> 00:15:58.904
 which pushes one pulse out,
 
 00:15:59.857 --> 00:16:00.717
 you know, frequently,
 
 00:16:00.778 --> 00:16:02.298
 this one does many beams.
 
 00:16:02.379 --> 00:16:05.239
 So it gives you a relief
 
 00:16:05.298 --> 00:16:06.519
 picture of bathymetry.
 
 00:16:06.698 --> 00:16:08.100
 So you get to see the height
 
 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:10.080
 and depth by the colors.
 
 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:14.240
 And this is the keel of what
 
 00:16:14.301 --> 00:16:16.682
 would have been a 70 to
 
 00:16:16.741 --> 00:16:19.062
 perhaps 90 foot two masted schooner.
 
 00:16:20.201 --> 00:16:22.283
 And you're seeing in the bright orange,
 
 00:16:22.802 --> 00:16:24.482
 the shallowest water and
 
 00:16:24.643 --> 00:16:25.822
 the deepest water is the
 
 00:16:25.883 --> 00:16:27.323
 darker blue and navies.
 
 00:16:30.508 --> 00:16:31.448
 In a better image,
 
 00:16:31.509 --> 00:16:33.950
 you'll see the ribs or the
 
 00:16:34.009 --> 00:16:35.451
 timbers that form the frame
 
 00:16:35.490 --> 00:16:37.493
 of the ship and some of the planks.
 
 00:16:38.513 --> 00:16:39.614
 Really, the only thing left,
 
 00:16:39.693 --> 00:16:40.815
 it's covered in sediment.
 
 00:16:41.495 --> 00:16:43.356
 But it's notable that it's
 
 00:16:43.397 --> 00:16:45.798
 sitting on a ledge close to
 
 00:16:46.119 --> 00:16:47.399
 the marina itself.
 
 00:16:48.019 --> 00:16:48.961
 And that part of the river
 
 00:16:48.980 --> 00:16:50.280
 is about 40 feet deep.
 
 00:16:50.381 --> 00:16:51.182
 And ultimately,
 
 00:16:51.201 --> 00:16:52.442
 a storm is going to come
 
 00:16:52.503 --> 00:16:54.183
 through and topple that
 
 00:16:54.264 --> 00:16:56.225
 wreck over as well, and it'll be gone.
 
 00:16:56.285 --> 00:16:56.586
 So it's...
 
 00:16:57.135 --> 00:16:58.357
 It's really a race against
 
 00:16:58.437 --> 00:16:59.841
 environmental conditions to
 
 00:16:59.900 --> 00:17:01.123
 document some of these wrecks.
 
 00:17:02.662 --> 00:17:03.822
 In this image in the fall,
 
 00:17:04.603 --> 00:17:06.984
 it's the newest wreck that we had found.
 
 00:17:07.105 --> 00:17:09.446
 And the side scan image is
 
 00:17:09.547 --> 00:17:10.488
 pretty detailed.
 
 00:17:10.528 --> 00:17:11.509
 You can see where the two
 
 00:17:11.628 --> 00:17:13.330
 arrows point to the mast steps.
 
 00:17:14.010 --> 00:17:16.413
 And for those who have a sailing ship,
 
 00:17:16.512 --> 00:17:17.834
 you know that the mast is
 
 00:17:17.973 --> 00:17:20.476
 anchored into the main hull of the ship.
 
 00:17:21.156 --> 00:17:22.298
 This is where they would
 
 00:17:22.317 --> 00:17:24.038
 have been put at the very bottom,
 
 00:17:24.118 --> 00:17:24.720
 the bilge.
 
 00:17:25.059 --> 00:17:27.402
 The last three feet of this
 
 00:17:27.481 --> 00:17:29.182
 sailing ship was two-masted.
 
 00:17:29.963 --> 00:17:32.224
 The image, if it could be enlarged,
 
 00:17:32.305 --> 00:17:33.744
 would literally show the
 
 00:17:33.805 --> 00:17:35.226
 ceiling planks of the
 
 00:17:35.286 --> 00:17:37.086
 bottom of the ship and a
 
 00:17:37.165 --> 00:17:38.306
 lot of where the cargo
 
 00:17:38.326 --> 00:17:39.326
 would have wound out.
 
 00:17:40.106 --> 00:17:41.386
 You kind of can see the
 
 00:17:41.507 --> 00:17:44.268
 shadow off to the right of the shipwreck.
 
 00:17:44.688 --> 00:17:46.409
 It looks like a little cockpit image.
 
 00:17:47.252 --> 00:17:49.193
 And those are the frames,
 
 00:17:49.354 --> 00:17:51.474
 the ribs of the foundation of the ship.
 
 00:17:51.915 --> 00:17:54.037
 Not that much different than
 
 00:17:54.096 --> 00:17:55.498
 the two-by-fours that hold
 
 00:17:55.597 --> 00:17:57.198
 up the walls of our homes.
 
 00:17:57.798 --> 00:17:59.180
 These were the ribs that the
 
 00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:00.720
 inside and the outside of
 
 00:18:00.920 --> 00:18:03.021
 the wood would be for the ship's hull.
 
 00:18:03.682 --> 00:18:04.642
 And a picture from the
 
 00:18:04.682 --> 00:18:05.843
 American Museum of Natural
 
 00:18:05.883 --> 00:18:06.963
 History shows what a
 
 00:18:07.003 --> 00:18:09.065
 typical two-masted suit would be.
 
 00:18:09.704 --> 00:18:12.606
 These were merchant ships, cargo ships.
 
 00:18:12.666 --> 00:18:14.428
 They maybe carried one or two guns.
 
 00:18:15.087 --> 00:18:16.568
 The privateers knew that.
 
 00:18:17.505 --> 00:18:18.546
 They weren't going to lose
 
 00:18:18.586 --> 00:18:21.067
 their lives over goods,
 
 00:18:21.929 --> 00:18:23.349
 clothing and things like that.
 
 00:18:23.369 --> 00:18:24.369
 So they would surrender.
 
 00:18:25.070 --> 00:18:26.491
 The privateers would tow
 
 00:18:26.511 --> 00:18:27.813
 them back to Chestnut Neck
 
 00:18:28.573 --> 00:18:29.413
 and they would take
 
 00:18:29.493 --> 00:18:30.755
 everything of value off,
 
 00:18:30.835 --> 00:18:32.415
 sell the ships in auction,
 
 00:18:32.817 --> 00:18:34.678
 sell the cargo in auction for cash.
 
 00:18:35.824 --> 00:18:37.884
 what supplies walking would
 
 00:18:37.924 --> 00:18:40.204
 be transported over land up the river.
 
 00:18:40.444 --> 00:18:41.204
 The rest of it would have
 
 00:18:41.224 --> 00:18:42.105
 been sold for money,
 
 00:18:42.224 --> 00:18:43.026
 and that money would have
 
 00:18:43.046 --> 00:18:44.766
 been used to pay Washington's troops.
 
 00:18:45.346 --> 00:18:45.705
 Amazing.
 
 00:18:46.046 --> 00:18:47.546
 So if we think about other
 
 00:18:47.606 --> 00:18:49.047
 ships we know about from the period,
 
 00:18:49.086 --> 00:18:51.007
 the Diana, the Gatsby, I mean,
 
 00:18:51.067 --> 00:18:52.186
 it is the same model,
 
 00:18:52.207 --> 00:18:54.847
 this two-masted sailing vessel,
 
 00:18:54.928 --> 00:18:56.387
 probably the same size.
 
 00:18:56.468 --> 00:18:57.509
 It gives us a real sense of
 
 00:18:57.568 --> 00:18:59.429
 how big these wrecks are.
 
 00:18:59.749 --> 00:19:00.028
 I think,
 
 00:19:00.108 --> 00:19:02.250
 don't you have a video of this
 
 00:19:02.369 --> 00:19:04.190
 wreck itself that we could take a look at,
 
 00:19:04.210 --> 00:19:04.509
 Steve?
 
 00:19:05.289 --> 00:19:05.670
 We do.
 
 00:19:05.750 --> 00:19:07.811
 It's probably a multi-beam image.
 
 00:19:08.673 --> 00:19:09.113
 Here we go.
 
 00:19:10.273 --> 00:19:12.655
 So this is the area that the wreck sits.
 
 00:19:12.776 --> 00:19:13.977
 You can see the jagged
 
 00:19:14.037 --> 00:19:15.698
 shapes are what's left of
 
 00:19:15.718 --> 00:19:17.859
 the frames or the wooden timbers,
 
 00:19:17.900 --> 00:19:19.701
 the ribs, most people will call them.
 
 00:19:20.461 --> 00:19:23.144
 The inside of the ship is really,
 
 00:19:23.983 --> 00:19:25.125
 if you have a boat and
 
 00:19:25.164 --> 00:19:26.546
 you've ever had to go below
 
 00:19:26.665 --> 00:19:28.428
 to check the water level or
 
 00:19:28.468 --> 00:19:29.989
 the bilge or you drop something,
 
 00:19:30.009 --> 00:19:31.529
 this is the very bottom of the ship,
 
 00:19:31.549 --> 00:19:32.471
 the only thing that's left.
 
 00:19:33.392 --> 00:19:35.913
 That center line is the keel
 
 00:19:36.193 --> 00:19:37.414
 on the inside of the ship.
 
 00:19:38.295 --> 00:19:39.996
 And we are trying to put
 
 00:19:40.036 --> 00:19:42.157
 together the history of a ship from
 
 00:19:42.912 --> 00:19:44.593
 very little that's left.
 
 00:19:44.893 --> 00:19:46.294
 And some subsequent dives
 
 00:19:46.374 --> 00:19:47.515
 that we've made over the
 
 00:19:47.535 --> 00:19:48.755
 last couple of years have
 
 00:19:48.795 --> 00:19:49.776
 produced some pretty
 
 00:19:49.836 --> 00:19:51.135
 interesting artifacts that
 
 00:19:52.237 --> 00:19:55.419
 are remnants of the Revolutionary War.
 
 00:19:55.499 --> 00:19:58.901
 So that, in and of itself, historic.
 
 00:19:59.461 --> 00:20:00.821
 It looks like this looks like a pipe.
 
 00:20:01.461 --> 00:20:02.643
 It doesn't look like much,
 
 00:20:02.782 --> 00:20:03.863
 but it's the remains of a
 
 00:20:03.942 --> 00:20:05.104
 clay pipe that somebody
 
 00:20:05.144 --> 00:20:07.045
 would have fashioned to smoke.
 
 00:20:08.766 --> 00:20:09.806
 The state of New Jersey
 
 00:20:09.905 --> 00:20:11.386
 challenged us in order to
 
 00:20:11.446 --> 00:20:13.647
 prove that this was indeed
 
 00:20:13.847 --> 00:20:15.548
 one of the Mullica
 
 00:20:15.648 --> 00:20:17.048
 shipwrecks from the Battle
 
 00:20:17.068 --> 00:20:17.888
 of Chestnut Neck.
 
 00:20:18.950 --> 00:20:20.810
 We had to prove the ship had been burned.
 
 00:20:20.951 --> 00:20:22.310
 So that bottom image is a
 
 00:20:22.391 --> 00:20:23.951
 piece of timber that had been charred.
 
 00:20:24.632 --> 00:20:26.492
 The image above it is some
 
 00:20:26.532 --> 00:20:28.472
 broken glass that would
 
 00:20:28.532 --> 00:20:30.834
 have melted in the extreme heat.
 
 00:20:31.515 --> 00:20:32.974
 And we went to the extent of
 
 00:20:33.575 --> 00:20:35.195
 how hot would it have to be
 
 00:20:35.276 --> 00:20:37.836
 to melt a black glass rum bottle?
 
 00:20:39.365 --> 00:20:41.146
 We found that at 400 degrees,
 
 00:20:41.366 --> 00:20:42.567
 it turned the bottles
 
 00:20:42.626 --> 00:20:43.827
 almost blue in color.
 
 00:20:43.928 --> 00:20:45.748
 So we could prove the ship
 
 00:20:45.807 --> 00:20:48.009
 indeed was burned.
 
 00:20:48.028 --> 00:20:50.829
 The picture on the left is hard to see,
 
 00:20:50.869 --> 00:20:51.911
 because this ability is
 
 00:20:51.990 --> 00:20:53.030
 very poor in a river.
 
 00:20:53.131 --> 00:20:55.031
 But it's a trunnel or a tree nail.
 
 00:20:56.211 --> 00:20:57.712
 A lot of people in their
 
 00:20:57.772 --> 00:20:59.574
 homes will have their
 
 00:20:59.634 --> 00:21:01.534
 furniture or cabinetry done
 
 00:21:01.653 --> 00:21:03.714
 with wooden pegs, which are strong,
 
 00:21:04.275 --> 00:21:05.276
 to hold things together.
 
 00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:09.763
 in 1777 1778 ships were
 
 00:21:09.923 --> 00:21:12.045
 built with tree nails they
 
 00:21:12.065 --> 00:21:12.945
 were a hole would be
 
 00:21:12.986 --> 00:21:14.186
 drilled they put a wooden
 
 00:21:14.247 --> 00:21:15.527
 peg in and slam it into
 
 00:21:15.587 --> 00:21:17.249
 place they didn't use nails
 
 00:21:17.989 --> 00:21:19.009
 and a lot of that
 
 00:21:19.109 --> 00:21:20.611
 construction is how we can
 
 00:21:20.711 --> 00:21:22.071
 date the shipwreck we know
 
 00:21:22.152 --> 00:21:24.294
 when but people started
 
 00:21:24.594 --> 00:21:26.315
 changing from wooden pegs
 
 00:21:26.454 --> 00:21:29.017
 to steel to iron to brass
 
 00:21:30.016 --> 00:21:31.176
 and date the history of it.
 
 00:21:31.217 --> 00:21:32.398
 So we knew we had an old one,
 
 00:21:32.419 --> 00:21:34.200
 and we were lucky enough to
 
 00:21:34.259 --> 00:21:35.501
 find some of the pottery
 
 00:21:35.541 --> 00:21:38.284
 that was broken in all of
 
 00:21:38.344 --> 00:21:39.865
 these burnings and sinkings,
 
 00:21:39.986 --> 00:21:40.987
 and they would have been
 
 00:21:41.027 --> 00:21:42.147
 exquisite pieces.
 
 00:21:42.167 --> 00:21:43.909
 You see that enamel finish
 
 00:21:43.949 --> 00:21:45.109
 still survived after 245 years.
 
 00:21:45.131 --> 00:21:45.270
 Mm-hmm.
 
 00:21:46.932 --> 00:21:47.792
 As well as the fire.
 
 00:21:48.113 --> 00:21:49.694
 We're talking with Steve Nagowitz,
 
 00:21:49.755 --> 00:21:51.336
 licensed shipmaster and
 
 00:21:51.496 --> 00:21:52.798
 underwater archaeologist,
 
 00:21:52.837 --> 00:21:54.378
 talking about the Battle of
 
 00:21:54.439 --> 00:21:56.280
 Chestnut Point in New Jersey.
 
 00:21:57.040 --> 00:21:58.883
 And now you've also talked
 
 00:21:58.923 --> 00:22:01.085
 about how difficult it is
 
 00:22:01.144 --> 00:22:03.287
 to see underwater physically.
 
 00:22:03.406 --> 00:22:04.888
 Can you dive?
 
 00:22:04.909 --> 00:22:06.569
 Would you dive to this or is
 
 00:22:06.609 --> 00:22:07.810
 it all being done with sonar?
 
 00:22:08.612 --> 00:22:08.751
 It's...
 
 00:22:09.813 --> 00:22:11.153
 most of the documentation
 
 00:22:11.213 --> 00:22:13.454
 sonar because I can get an
 
 00:22:13.535 --> 00:22:15.015
 image of the wreck and with
 
 00:22:15.095 --> 00:22:16.935
 multi-beam since it allows
 
 00:22:17.036 --> 00:22:18.737
 for a dimensional view we
 
 00:22:18.777 --> 00:22:19.777
 can put the wreck into
 
 00:22:19.856 --> 00:22:22.278
 context that's how it works
 
 00:22:22.338 --> 00:22:24.419
 around the river there's a
 
 00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:27.401
 slide take a slide called
 
 00:22:27.540 --> 00:22:29.221
 the edge tech bathy could
 
 00:22:29.261 --> 00:22:30.102
 you bring that up
 
 00:22:33.652 --> 00:22:34.971
 What you're looking at is a
 
 00:22:35.132 --> 00:22:36.232
 multi-beam image of the
 
 00:22:36.292 --> 00:22:37.593
 section of the river that
 
 00:22:37.633 --> 00:22:38.893
 we found some shipwrecks.
 
 00:22:39.554 --> 00:22:41.193
 And the colors indicate the
 
 00:22:41.233 --> 00:22:42.114
 depth of the water.
 
 00:22:42.273 --> 00:22:43.875
 It also indicates where the
 
 00:22:43.934 --> 00:22:45.494
 water is traveling and how
 
 00:22:45.835 --> 00:22:47.875
 it moves throughout the river.
 
 00:22:48.076 --> 00:22:50.195
 And rivers are like a living thing.
 
 00:22:51.856 --> 00:22:53.297
 Water is coming in from the
 
 00:22:53.416 --> 00:22:55.317
 ocean at the inlet side,
 
 00:22:55.538 --> 00:22:56.897
 and it's coming downstream
 
 00:22:56.978 --> 00:22:58.858
 from the river inland New Jersey.
 
 00:22:59.419 --> 00:23:00.419
 And that back and forth
 
 00:23:00.499 --> 00:23:01.720
 motion is changing the
 
 00:23:01.779 --> 00:23:03.059
 marsh on both sides.
 
 00:23:03.856 --> 00:23:05.137
 We believe that a lot of
 
 00:23:05.198 --> 00:23:06.660
 these shipwrecks have been
 
 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:07.961
 covered up over the years.
 
 00:23:08.241 --> 00:23:09.942
 And some of them, like the newer wreck,
 
 00:23:10.443 --> 00:23:12.246
 has just been uncovered.
 
 00:23:12.346 --> 00:23:13.827
 So we're finding things that
 
 00:23:14.048 --> 00:23:16.349
 the river buries itself over time.
 
 00:23:16.951 --> 00:23:18.372
 But if you look at the image,
 
 00:23:19.032 --> 00:23:19.594
 the shipwreck
 
 00:23:20.884 --> 00:23:24.067
 The newer one is in the lower part,
 
 00:23:24.127 --> 00:23:26.189
 the orange section of the
 
 00:23:26.229 --> 00:23:27.349
 picture closest to the
 
 00:23:27.390 --> 00:23:28.290
 bottom of the screen.
 
 00:23:28.851 --> 00:23:30.633
 And the full wreck is a
 
 00:23:30.913 --> 00:23:32.815
 bright orange oval on the
 
 00:23:32.894 --> 00:23:34.076
 opposite side of that.
 
 00:23:34.096 --> 00:23:35.977
 You can see that there's a
 
 00:23:36.037 --> 00:23:37.157
 deep channel and the rest
 
 00:23:37.198 --> 00:23:38.159
 of it gets shallow.
 
 00:23:38.179 --> 00:23:39.680
 And that's just the ebb and
 
 00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:40.881
 flow of currents in the river.
 
 00:23:41.662 --> 00:23:43.242
 How much, how deep are the tides?
 
 00:23:43.282 --> 00:23:44.124
 How much kind of a
 
 00:23:44.144 --> 00:23:45.704
 fluctuation is there in the tides to you?
 
 00:23:47.365 --> 00:23:49.846
 It varies a couple of feet depending on,
 
 00:23:50.087 --> 00:23:50.528
 of course,
 
 00:23:51.388 --> 00:23:53.270
 weather and what time and
 
 00:23:53.471 --> 00:23:54.352
 position of the moon.
 
 00:23:54.412 --> 00:23:56.994
 But the tidal changes are quite severe.
 
 00:23:57.015 --> 00:24:00.318
 It kind of limits us to diving in October,
 
 00:24:00.338 --> 00:24:00.919
 November,
 
 00:24:01.099 --> 00:24:04.222
 where the river vegetation dies off,
 
 00:24:04.242 --> 00:24:05.865
 the visibility increases,
 
 00:24:06.005 --> 00:24:07.646
 and the tides are a little bit less.
 
 00:24:09.303 --> 00:24:10.784
 And the diving aspect of it
 
 00:24:10.844 --> 00:24:13.545
 helps us confirm the construction.
 
 00:24:13.565 --> 00:24:15.644
 There's an image where, you know,
 
 00:24:15.964 --> 00:24:17.445
 some of my divers would go
 
 00:24:17.506 --> 00:24:20.086
 down with a slate and draw
 
 00:24:20.386 --> 00:24:22.287
 the construction because the sonar,
 
 00:24:22.847 --> 00:24:24.228
 while it is really good,
 
 00:24:24.268 --> 00:24:25.667
 it doesn't get as detailed.
 
 00:24:25.708 --> 00:24:27.148
 And there's a picture of a slate.
 
 00:24:31.269 --> 00:24:32.651
 And this is how the bow was,
 
 00:24:32.730 --> 00:24:33.730
 the very tip of the ship.
 
 00:24:34.656 --> 00:24:35.917
 It shows the construction,
 
 00:24:35.978 --> 00:24:38.019
 how the bow was built up by
 
 00:24:38.058 --> 00:24:38.878
 various timbers.
 
 00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:41.800
 And this is the documentation,
 
 00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:43.642
 the archaeology of it that
 
 00:24:43.662 --> 00:24:45.942
 we provide the state so
 
 00:24:46.022 --> 00:24:48.565
 that the history of these wrecks,
 
 00:24:48.724 --> 00:24:50.086
 like the ones across the
 
 00:24:50.145 --> 00:24:52.926
 state in Crosswood Creek,
 
 00:24:54.167 --> 00:24:57.750
 will document how they were
 
 00:24:58.170 --> 00:24:59.371
 over a period of time
 
 00:24:59.833 --> 00:25:01.355
 eventually wood is going to
 
 00:25:01.375 --> 00:25:03.175
 get eaten by the biological
 
 00:25:03.257 --> 00:25:04.938
 forces in the river and
 
 00:25:04.978 --> 00:25:06.619
 eventually disappear as
 
 00:25:06.680 --> 00:25:09.542
 they've been doing since 1778.
 
 00:25:09.542 --> 00:25:11.744
 Our job, my job,
 
 00:25:12.665 --> 00:25:14.307
 passion really is to make
 
 00:25:14.367 --> 00:25:15.729
 sure that people know this
 
 00:25:15.788 --> 00:25:17.891
 battle took place and why
 
 00:25:17.951 --> 00:25:20.413
 it was so important in today's context.
 
 00:25:21.874 --> 00:25:23.074
 That if it didn't happen,
 
 00:25:23.634 --> 00:25:24.914
 we might be drinking tea
 
 00:25:24.954 --> 00:25:26.615
 instead of coffee.
 
 00:25:26.634 --> 00:25:27.474
 That's very true.
 
 00:25:27.494 --> 00:25:29.095
 We're talking with Steve
 
 00:25:29.115 --> 00:25:32.215
 Nagowitz from Southern New Jersey,
 
 00:25:32.576 --> 00:25:33.675
 Stockton University,
 
 00:25:33.715 --> 00:25:35.955
 also a retired high school
 
 00:25:35.996 --> 00:25:37.977
 science teacher and real
 
 00:25:37.997 --> 00:25:39.656
 passion does seem to be
 
 00:25:40.457 --> 00:25:43.018
 ships and scuba diving and
 
 00:25:43.077 --> 00:25:44.357
 telling these great stories.
 
 00:25:44.458 --> 00:25:46.238
 I'm wondering a couple of
 
 00:25:46.317 --> 00:25:48.939
 things you've mentioned.
 
 00:25:49.058 --> 00:25:49.179
 One,
 
 00:25:50.118 --> 00:25:51.419
 finding out where the ships were made.
 
 00:25:51.881 --> 00:25:53.021
 And that relies on finding
 
 00:25:53.082 --> 00:25:55.022
 out what kind of wood they're made from.
 
 00:25:55.042 --> 00:25:56.804
 Have you had any more
 
 00:25:56.964 --> 00:25:58.486
 success in figuring out
 
 00:25:58.506 --> 00:26:00.487
 whether they're made in North America,
 
 00:26:00.507 --> 00:26:01.326
 in Britain,
 
 00:26:01.468 --> 00:26:03.888
 and where the ships might have come from?
 
 00:26:06.131 --> 00:26:07.892
 We thought we had a really
 
 00:26:08.903 --> 00:26:10.825
 smart idea we would take we
 
 00:26:11.165 --> 00:26:12.928
 took a piece of timber
 
 00:26:13.387 --> 00:26:14.849
 really thick piece from the
 
 00:26:14.890 --> 00:26:16.872
 wreck and sent it down to
 
 00:26:17.472 --> 00:26:18.693
 university of florida who
 
 00:26:18.733 --> 00:26:20.997
 did an analysis on and told
 
 00:26:21.057 --> 00:26:24.480
 us what I probably already
 
 00:26:24.540 --> 00:26:25.582
 knew but didn't really want
 
 00:26:25.602 --> 00:26:26.762
 to hear was that was made
 
 00:26:26.803 --> 00:26:29.906
 of oak and it was made of cedar so
 
 00:26:30.959 --> 00:26:32.359
 could have been made up in
 
 00:26:32.420 --> 00:26:33.540
 new england and it could
 
 00:26:33.560 --> 00:26:34.981
 have been made in in
 
 00:26:35.162 --> 00:26:37.623
 england right yeah it just
 
 00:26:38.263 --> 00:26:39.565
 you know economically why
 
 00:26:39.585 --> 00:26:40.744
 would you build a boat in
 
 00:26:40.884 --> 00:26:42.526
 england and sail it a very
 
 00:26:42.606 --> 00:26:45.008
 difficult sail across the
 
 00:26:45.048 --> 00:26:46.969
 atlantic to come here it
 
 00:26:47.009 --> 00:26:48.309
 would be so much simpler to
 
 00:26:48.369 --> 00:26:49.671
 build a boat in new england
 
 00:26:49.951 --> 00:26:51.011
 and cheaper too
 
 00:26:51.760 --> 00:26:52.881
 Oh, yeah, yeah.
 
 00:26:53.021 --> 00:26:54.382
 So we believe that they're
 
 00:26:54.521 --> 00:26:55.521
 built in New England.
 
 00:26:55.541 --> 00:26:57.262
 They have absolutely no
 
 00:26:57.323 --> 00:26:59.003
 proof other than it makes
 
 00:26:59.064 --> 00:27:00.845
 some sense economically to do that.
 
 00:27:01.365 --> 00:27:02.365
 And it would be at least
 
 00:27:02.444 --> 00:27:03.986
 another 10 or 15 years
 
 00:27:04.066 --> 00:27:05.165
 before the Mullica River
 
 00:27:05.766 --> 00:27:07.886
 started building their own ships.
 
 00:27:08.446 --> 00:27:09.208
 That's interesting.
 
 00:27:10.528 --> 00:27:11.348
 That's interesting.
 
 00:27:11.669 --> 00:27:12.269
 Yeah.
 
 00:27:12.348 --> 00:27:13.828
 So we find out what we can,
 
 00:27:14.029 --> 00:27:15.150
 and we can't even figure out what
 
 00:27:15.976 --> 00:27:17.356
 these vessels actually were,
 
 00:27:17.416 --> 00:27:18.298
 what their names were.
 
 00:27:18.377 --> 00:27:19.798
 So I think I really commend
 
 00:27:19.818 --> 00:27:21.300
 you for what you have been
 
 00:27:21.340 --> 00:27:22.801
 able to document from them.
 
 00:27:23.702 --> 00:27:24.804
 Another thing that you've
 
 00:27:24.844 --> 00:27:27.266
 mentioned is that fish find
 
 00:27:27.306 --> 00:27:28.886
 these shipwrecked really
 
 00:27:28.987 --> 00:27:30.949
 useful places to hang out,
 
 00:27:30.969 --> 00:27:32.170
 and thus fishermen also.
 
 00:27:32.589 --> 00:27:33.691
 Has there been much damage
 
 00:27:33.730 --> 00:27:35.011
 to them you can detect
 
 00:27:35.073 --> 00:27:36.273
 either through fish or
 
 00:27:36.374 --> 00:27:38.174
 through people fishing just
 
 00:27:38.214 --> 00:27:39.236
 because this is a good spot
 
 00:27:39.276 --> 00:27:40.477
 to catch fish because the
 
 00:27:40.517 --> 00:27:41.718
 fish congregate around an
 
 00:27:42.979 --> 00:27:43.660
 object like this?
 
 00:27:44.651 --> 00:27:45.751
 If you bring up that
 
 00:27:45.832 --> 00:27:49.555
 comparison diagram for me.
 
 00:27:49.955 --> 00:27:51.777
 Jonathan's doing a great job
 
 00:27:51.817 --> 00:27:53.057
 handling the slides too.
 
 00:27:54.259 --> 00:27:55.339
 It's the picture of the fall
 
 00:27:55.380 --> 00:28:01.726
 wreck with the sailing ship inset.
 
 00:28:01.826 --> 00:28:02.946
 I can answer that question
 
 00:28:02.987 --> 00:28:04.567
 by saying in the side scan image,
 
 00:28:04.667 --> 00:28:06.250
 we actually see schools of
 
 00:28:06.329 --> 00:28:08.391
 fish on that particular shipwreck.
 
 00:28:09.112 --> 00:28:10.752
 In terms of what you asked for damage,
 
 00:28:11.758 --> 00:28:13.259
 It's a new shipwreck for us.
 
 00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:15.740
 It doesn't look like it's
 
 00:28:15.800 --> 00:28:16.821
 been damaged much.
 
 00:28:16.922 --> 00:28:18.583
 But if you look at the arrow
 
 00:28:18.663 --> 00:28:21.384
 in the center that points
 
 00:28:21.444 --> 00:28:22.365
 to the mast steps,
 
 00:28:23.226 --> 00:28:24.926
 I did notice that there's a
 
 00:28:25.087 --> 00:28:26.067
 big gap in there.
 
 00:28:26.167 --> 00:28:27.209
 So somebody might have
 
 00:28:27.288 --> 00:28:28.549
 accidentally tried to drop
 
 00:28:28.589 --> 00:28:29.971
 an anchor and got it stuck
 
 00:28:30.010 --> 00:28:30.791
 and pulled it out.
 
 00:28:31.471 --> 00:28:32.673
 But these positions,
 
 00:28:33.073 --> 00:28:34.894
 even though you see a map
 
 00:28:34.954 --> 00:28:36.915
 where they're located, are not known
 
 00:28:37.696 --> 00:28:38.938
 And that's intentional by
 
 00:28:38.998 --> 00:28:41.080
 both the state and myself
 
 00:28:41.161 --> 00:28:42.201
 and Stockton University.
 
 00:28:42.241 --> 00:28:43.742
 We don't want people going there.
 
 00:28:45.105 --> 00:28:48.628
 But they can be fished and
 
 00:28:48.648 --> 00:28:50.130
 the river is extensively
 
 00:28:50.230 --> 00:28:51.652
 commercially harvested for
 
 00:28:51.771 --> 00:28:52.792
 oysters and crabs.
 
 00:28:53.894 --> 00:28:55.015
 The Kramer wreck is too
 
 00:28:55.055 --> 00:28:56.277
 close to a marina for
 
 00:28:56.396 --> 00:28:57.778
 anybody to do any damage
 
 00:28:57.817 --> 00:28:59.099
 and it's too deep for even
 
 00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:00.121
 ships to damage it.
 
 00:29:00.785 --> 00:29:03.548
 The bead wreck is falling apart.
 
 00:29:04.328 --> 00:29:06.171
 It doesn't even hold fish anymore.
 
 00:29:07.011 --> 00:29:07.752
 And the other wrecks
 
 00:29:08.173 --> 00:29:09.875
 probably are so buried that
 
 00:29:09.894 --> 00:29:11.136
 it will be a while before
 
 00:29:11.196 --> 00:29:12.057
 they get uncovered.
 
 00:29:12.557 --> 00:29:13.839
 So the simple answer is I
 
 00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:15.981
 haven't seen much in the way of damage.
 
 00:29:16.461 --> 00:29:18.223
 The fall has some damage on
 
 00:29:18.243 --> 00:29:19.385
 the inside of the ship
 
 00:29:19.445 --> 00:29:20.527
 that's consistent with
 
 00:29:20.567 --> 00:29:21.867
 somebody who got an anchor stuck.
 
 00:29:22.888 --> 00:29:23.930
 But at the same time,
 
 00:29:24.471 --> 00:29:27.032
 when we dove that spot to see the damage,
 
 00:29:27.512 --> 00:29:28.953
 we found that that spot was
 
 00:29:29.095 --> 00:29:30.115
 probably where an old
 
 00:29:30.195 --> 00:29:31.416
 galley was because we
 
 00:29:31.517 --> 00:29:33.458
 recovered some red fire brick.
 
 00:29:34.538 --> 00:29:36.401
 So what do you mean there was a galley?
 
 00:29:36.421 --> 00:29:37.622
 Was that from the fall or
 
 00:29:37.662 --> 00:29:39.042
 was that from something else?
 
 00:29:39.083 --> 00:29:39.943
 It was from the fall.
 
 00:29:39.963 --> 00:29:40.084
 I mean,
 
 00:29:40.584 --> 00:29:43.006
 imagine you're a sailor on a ship
 
 00:29:43.066 --> 00:29:43.946
 and you're sailing up and
 
 00:29:43.987 --> 00:29:45.607
 down the coast from either
 
 00:29:46.548 --> 00:29:48.711
 points south or from New England and
 
 00:29:49.699 --> 00:29:51.039
 every evening you certainly
 
 00:29:51.079 --> 00:29:52.661
 want a cup of tea or a hot
 
 00:29:52.740 --> 00:29:54.541
 meal so they had a stove on
 
 00:29:54.561 --> 00:29:56.563
 the ship and it was built
 
 00:29:56.663 --> 00:29:57.723
 into the ship there'd be a
 
 00:29:57.763 --> 00:29:59.525
 layer of sand there'd be a
 
 00:29:59.565 --> 00:30:00.786
 layer of brick there'd be a
 
 00:30:00.826 --> 00:30:01.987
 layer of sand and a layer
 
 00:30:02.007 --> 00:30:03.508
 of brick to keep the fire
 
 00:30:03.587 --> 00:30:04.768
 from burning a wood ship
 
 00:30:05.409 --> 00:30:06.589
 but it was a way to make a
 
 00:30:06.630 --> 00:30:08.471
 hot meal and a lot of ships
 
 00:30:08.510 --> 00:30:10.031
 have them and you go back
 
 00:30:10.132 --> 00:30:11.613
 to the really only
 
 00:30:12.704 --> 00:30:14.345
 extensive archaeology was
 
 00:30:14.525 --> 00:30:17.226
 the privateer defense up in New England,
 
 00:30:17.286 --> 00:30:19.126
 which really did show what
 
 00:30:19.186 --> 00:30:20.386
 a stove would look like and
 
 00:30:20.426 --> 00:30:21.467
 where it would be on a ship.
 
 00:30:21.807 --> 00:30:22.906
 And you wouldn't think, well,
 
 00:30:23.048 --> 00:30:24.968
 having a flame on a ship's a bad thing,
 
 00:30:25.087 --> 00:30:26.268
 but they knew that too.
 
 00:30:26.708 --> 00:30:28.449
 And they were pretty smart at the time,
 
 00:30:29.009 --> 00:30:31.288
 even though we look at 200
 
 00:30:31.288 --> 00:30:32.210
 years ago and say,
 
 00:30:32.250 --> 00:30:33.630
 how smart can you really be?
 
 00:30:33.690 --> 00:30:34.049
 They were.
 
 00:30:34.069 --> 00:30:34.670
 Right.
 
 00:30:35.049 --> 00:30:35.309
 Wow.
 
 00:30:35.430 --> 00:30:36.050
 It is amazing.
 
 00:30:36.070 --> 00:30:36.671
 Well, they learned.
 
 00:30:37.550 --> 00:30:37.750
 Here,
 
 00:30:37.810 --> 00:30:39.631
 Jonathan's found an image of the Nags
 
 00:30:39.711 --> 00:30:39.971
 wreck,
 
 00:30:40.071 --> 00:30:41.791
 which I guess is the newest one you've
 
 00:30:44.012 --> 00:30:48.500
 It's on the opposite side of the fall.
 
 00:30:49.221 --> 00:30:50.984
 It's in an area of the river
 
 00:30:51.505 --> 00:30:53.489
 that I think as the river
 
 00:30:53.669 --> 00:30:55.751
 comes down from central New
 
 00:30:55.771 --> 00:30:57.095
 Jersey and the Pinelands,
 
 00:30:57.739 --> 00:30:59.621
 It's moving mud back and forth.
 
 00:30:59.760 --> 00:31:01.422
 And I believe this wreck for
 
 00:31:01.481 --> 00:31:02.864
 years had been covered over
 
 00:31:02.943 --> 00:31:04.325
 because a lot of people
 
 00:31:04.704 --> 00:31:05.645
 have fished the river.
 
 00:31:05.865 --> 00:31:06.787
 And a lot of people use
 
 00:31:06.826 --> 00:31:09.108
 sonar to find a fish or to
 
 00:31:09.148 --> 00:31:10.829
 locate their pots for
 
 00:31:10.891 --> 00:31:11.971
 fishing and oyster beds.
 
 00:31:12.711 --> 00:31:14.473
 And nobody had seen this before.
 
 00:31:14.773 --> 00:31:16.154
 And it was only until a year
 
 00:31:16.194 --> 00:31:17.016
 or so ago that...
 
 00:31:18.734 --> 00:31:20.395
 When I asked my students,
 
 00:31:20.455 --> 00:31:22.155
 where would you put ships at anchor,
 
 00:31:22.175 --> 00:31:24.076
 the spot of the river was
 
 00:31:24.576 --> 00:31:26.458
 the favorite place of almost all of them,
 
 00:31:26.498 --> 00:31:27.738
 yet we didn't find anything
 
 00:31:27.778 --> 00:31:29.058
 there until a few years ago.
 
 00:31:29.858 --> 00:31:31.799
 And this is the remnants of that ship.
 
 00:31:31.940 --> 00:31:34.320
 And we haven't dived it yet
 
 00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:35.861
 because it's kind of murky.
 
 00:31:37.903 --> 00:31:39.904
 It does look relatively old.
 
 00:31:40.244 --> 00:31:40.984
 I don't think it's
 
 00:31:41.045 --> 00:31:42.806
 somebody's Chris Craft that
 
 00:31:42.865 --> 00:31:45.227
 has some Chevy big block engine on there.
 
 00:31:45.926 --> 00:31:48.307
 But after dragging a magnetometer,
 
 00:31:48.367 --> 00:31:50.949
 we did find a great impact
 
 00:31:51.650 --> 00:31:53.569
 in some kind of iron that was there.
 
 00:31:53.670 --> 00:31:55.310
 So perhaps an anchor or
 
 00:31:55.330 --> 00:31:56.230
 hopefully a cannon.
 
 00:31:57.432 --> 00:31:57.711
 Wow.
 
 00:31:57.892 --> 00:31:58.352
 Amazing.
 
 00:32:00.192 --> 00:32:02.473
 Some more images of the Nags wreck.
 
 00:32:03.275 --> 00:32:05.417
 and your namesake in the
 
 00:32:05.458 --> 00:32:08.080
 river um it's amazing my
 
 00:32:08.101 --> 00:32:10.503
 wife my wife says it's my
 
 00:32:10.544 --> 00:32:12.645
 conceit it's um it's only
 
 00:32:12.685 --> 00:32:14.429
 about 10 or 12 feet in
 
 00:32:14.509 --> 00:32:15.589
 parts of it and then the
 
 00:32:15.670 --> 00:32:17.271
 other part of it is in 30
 
 00:32:17.271 --> 00:32:18.252
 some feet and they're
 
 00:32:18.292 --> 00:32:20.194
 separated we did put a
 
 00:32:20.295 --> 00:32:21.557
 couple of friends of mine
 
 00:32:21.656 --> 00:32:22.758
 on the wreck once and
 
 00:32:23.762 --> 00:32:26.044
 Invisibility that's measured in inches,
 
 00:32:26.784 --> 00:32:28.084
 we're probably a few feet
 
 00:32:28.144 --> 00:32:30.125
 away and never really got to see it.
 
 00:32:30.184 --> 00:32:32.025
 So we'll be going back this October,
 
 00:32:32.085 --> 00:32:34.165
 November to try and make an attempt.
 
 00:32:34.865 --> 00:32:36.066
 I believe it's probably an
 
 00:32:36.145 --> 00:32:38.967
 old work barge that would
 
 00:32:38.987 --> 00:32:39.747
 make some sense.
 
 00:32:40.086 --> 00:32:41.606
 Imagine you have 10 ships at
 
 00:32:41.686 --> 00:32:43.167
 anchor and you're taking
 
 00:32:43.228 --> 00:32:44.167
 goods from them all the
 
 00:32:44.208 --> 00:32:44.807
 time or you're
 
 00:32:44.847 --> 00:32:46.367
 disassembling them to send
 
 00:32:46.387 --> 00:32:47.068
 them to auction.
 
 00:32:47.509 --> 00:32:49.249
 You would need a platform to work on.
 
 00:32:49.328 --> 00:32:50.308
 And this makes a lot of
 
 00:32:50.348 --> 00:32:52.710
 sense that it would be that.
 
 00:32:53.598 --> 00:32:54.759
 And talking to the people
 
 00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:55.881
 who have lived there all
 
 00:32:55.921 --> 00:32:57.001
 their lives and traced
 
 00:32:57.021 --> 00:32:58.083
 their ancestry back,
 
 00:32:58.982 --> 00:33:01.325
 no one ever has said that
 
 00:33:01.846 --> 00:33:03.267
 they've lost their own
 
 00:33:03.346 --> 00:33:04.928
 personal boat there.
 
 00:33:05.188 --> 00:33:07.210
 So we believe it's part of
 
 00:33:07.390 --> 00:33:10.271
 the 10 that were in Chestnut Neck,
 
 00:33:10.352 --> 00:33:10.913
 Mollica River.
 
 00:33:11.593 --> 00:33:12.193
 That's amazing.
 
 00:33:12.973 --> 00:33:13.174
 Steve,
 
 00:33:13.194 --> 00:33:14.476
 I wonder if we can talk a little bit
 
 00:33:14.556 --> 00:33:15.757
 about Crossworks Creek,
 
 00:33:15.797 --> 00:33:16.717
 which was one of the other
 
 00:33:16.777 --> 00:33:17.998
 sites you mentioned in a
 
 00:33:18.057 --> 00:33:19.278
 different part of the state.
 
 00:33:20.059 --> 00:33:20.799
 And I don't think we have
 
 00:33:20.840 --> 00:33:22.342
 any images of that, but what's...
 
 00:33:26.436 --> 00:33:28.557
 It's the opposite end of the
 
 00:33:28.656 --> 00:33:31.877
 state's version of the Mullica River.
 
 00:33:31.917 --> 00:33:32.998
 And honestly,
 
 00:33:33.077 --> 00:33:34.637
 the Mullica is close to
 
 00:33:34.698 --> 00:33:35.838
 Stockton University,
 
 00:33:35.878 --> 00:33:37.939
 so it's a perfect classroom,
 
 00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:40.578
 which is why we spend a lot
 
 00:33:40.618 --> 00:33:41.400
 of our time there.
 
 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:43.240
 But in working with Monmouth
 
 00:33:43.299 --> 00:33:44.480
 University and one of their
 
 00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:47.361
 graduate students, Jacqueline Fisher,
 
 00:33:48.141 --> 00:33:51.361
 we documented that site.
 
 00:33:51.421 --> 00:33:52.442
 It's also on the National
 
 00:33:52.481 --> 00:33:53.902
 Register of Historic Places.
 
 00:33:54.642 --> 00:33:54.761
 The
 
 00:33:55.511 --> 00:33:58.193
 colonial forces bought all
 
 00:33:58.273 --> 00:34:00.055
 their ships into the river
 
 00:34:00.115 --> 00:34:01.875
 to protect them from the British coming.
 
 00:34:02.496 --> 00:34:04.376
 They sank them in place and
 
 00:34:04.537 --> 00:34:06.778
 we found one specific
 
 00:34:06.837 --> 00:34:07.979
 shipwreck that's buried in
 
 00:34:08.018 --> 00:34:09.440
 the mud that has very
 
 00:34:09.500 --> 00:34:11.101
 similar construction to the
 
 00:34:11.141 --> 00:34:11.760
 Mullica wrecks.
 
 00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:12.782
 No big surprise,
 
 00:34:12.802 --> 00:34:14.041
 the boats are probably all
 
 00:34:14.061 --> 00:34:15.762
 made very similar,
 
 00:34:16.403 --> 00:34:17.983
 just made some sense to do that.
 
 00:34:19.184 --> 00:34:22.507
 But the images are less than spectacular,
 
 00:34:22.887 --> 00:34:24.648
 but they will also be part
 
 00:34:24.768 --> 00:34:26.208
 of the documentation of
 
 00:34:26.829 --> 00:34:28.371
 that particular battle and
 
 00:34:28.431 --> 00:34:30.871
 the overall part of the use
 
 00:34:30.952 --> 00:34:32.793
 of privateers and supplying
 
 00:34:32.813 --> 00:34:35.295
 Washington's army with
 
 00:34:35.375 --> 00:34:37.416
 goods and services as well as cash.
 
 00:34:37.496 --> 00:34:39.297
 And that will be the chapter
 
 00:34:39.597 --> 00:34:40.777
 in the next book on the
 
 00:34:40.818 --> 00:34:42.018
 history of the Revolutionary War.
 
 00:34:42.807 --> 00:34:44.028
 So this is the archaeology
 
 00:34:44.048 --> 00:34:45.309
 of the American Revolution book,
 
 00:34:45.369 --> 00:34:48.331
 or is this yet to be written?
 
 00:34:48.351 --> 00:34:50.474
 So with that book,
 
 00:34:50.614 --> 00:34:51.614
 we're filling in the
 
 00:34:51.735 --> 00:34:53.436
 absence of not really
 
 00:34:53.635 --> 00:34:55.777
 including the Crosswood Creeks part.
 
 00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:58.960
 And honestly, Mullica, it's close to home,
 
 00:34:59.000 --> 00:34:59.900
 so it's easier.
 
 00:34:59.940 --> 00:35:01.681
 And to travel across the
 
 00:35:01.722 --> 00:35:06.346
 state to see a wreck in two feet of water,
 
 00:35:06.385 --> 00:35:07.606
 and sometimes in low tide,
 
 00:35:07.626 --> 00:35:09.588
 you can literally walk to it.
 
 00:35:09.628 --> 00:35:11.170
 We just want to document it.
 
 00:35:11.650 --> 00:35:13.469
 the site so that the state
 
 00:35:13.510 --> 00:35:14.971
 has it on record that this
 
 00:35:15.030 --> 00:35:16.010
 is what it looks like,
 
 00:35:16.070 --> 00:35:17.351
 this is how it's degrading,
 
 00:35:18.032 --> 00:35:19.152
 because that information is
 
 00:35:19.192 --> 00:35:19.931
 important to all
 
 00:35:20.012 --> 00:35:22.193
 archaeologists to see how
 
 00:35:22.753 --> 00:35:27.534
 time and river will destroy
 
 00:35:27.793 --> 00:35:29.233
 a shipwreck or at least change it.
 
 00:35:29.253 --> 00:35:30.375
 It's amazing.
 
 00:35:30.934 --> 00:35:32.275
 It must be great for you and
 
 00:35:32.295 --> 00:35:33.114
 your students actually
 
 00:35:33.155 --> 00:35:34.315
 physically to be able to go
 
 00:35:34.335 --> 00:35:36.016
 and do this and get this
 
 00:35:36.456 --> 00:35:39.496
 hands-on connection with the wrecks.
 
 00:35:40.851 --> 00:35:42.532
 They love it until they get
 
 00:35:42.592 --> 00:35:44.634
 onto the river and meet the greenhead,
 
 00:35:46.974 --> 00:35:47.556
 which are,
 
 00:35:48.436 --> 00:35:50.438
 imagine a bee and a mosquito
 
 00:35:50.557 --> 00:35:52.079
 put together and give them
 
 00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:54.099
 a really bad attitude and it's horrible.
 
 00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:56.521
 But they love the fact that
 
 00:35:56.541 --> 00:35:57.503
 they're contributing to
 
 00:35:57.543 --> 00:35:58.623
 history and it's something
 
 00:35:58.664 --> 00:35:59.744
 more than just listening to
 
 00:35:59.784 --> 00:36:02.346
 a lecture in class.
 
 00:36:03.126 --> 00:36:05.168
 We don't do it as often as we'd like,
 
 00:36:06.588 --> 00:36:08.389
 only because I can't put 30
 
 00:36:08.389 --> 00:36:10.092
 students on a boat.
 
 00:36:10.652 --> 00:36:12.132
 But we can take the really
 
 00:36:12.193 --> 00:36:14.313
 interested ones who maybe
 
 00:36:14.353 --> 00:36:15.793
 want to do this as a career
 
 00:36:16.034 --> 00:36:17.934
 or really want to help to
 
 00:36:18.135 --> 00:36:20.235
 document it on smaller vessels.
 
 00:36:20.916 --> 00:36:22.697
 And I teach them how to use the sonar,
 
 00:36:22.717 --> 00:36:23.777
 why it's important.
 
 00:36:23.916 --> 00:36:24.976
 And a lot of them have gone
 
 00:36:25.056 --> 00:36:26.577
 on to jobs working for NOAA.
 
 00:36:27.253 --> 00:36:28.032
 and the Army Corps of
 
 00:36:28.092 --> 00:36:29.373
 Engineers doing this kind
 
 00:36:29.393 --> 00:36:30.373
 of work across the state,
 
 00:36:30.434 --> 00:36:33.715
 which makes me happy to see
 
 00:36:33.775 --> 00:36:35.396
 that other people pick up the passion.
 
 00:36:35.976 --> 00:36:36.197
 Right.
 
 00:36:36.876 --> 00:36:38.157
 And just speaking of NOAA,
 
 00:36:38.177 --> 00:36:39.358
 you're also the co-author
 
 00:36:39.458 --> 00:36:40.798
 of the Robert J. Walker,
 
 00:36:40.838 --> 00:36:42.599
 The History and Archaeology of a U.S.
 
 00:36:42.659 --> 00:36:43.980
 Coast Survey Steamship.
 
 00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:46.101
 And that's a tremendous story, too,
 
 00:36:46.221 --> 00:36:48.501
 about the Walker that was a
 
 00:36:48.601 --> 00:36:50.302
 part of the whole mapping
 
 00:36:50.563 --> 00:36:53.364
 of the coast and the Gulf Stream.
 
 00:36:55.588 --> 00:36:57.170
 the Walker had an unfortunate end,
 
 00:36:57.251 --> 00:36:59.954
 but you were able to work with the wreck.
 
 00:37:01.516 --> 00:37:01.797
 It is.
 
 00:37:01.817 --> 00:37:03.838
 I've been fortunate to be
 
 00:37:03.878 --> 00:37:05.081
 able to work on most of the
 
 00:37:05.121 --> 00:37:06.161
 historic wrecks in New
 
 00:37:06.202 --> 00:37:08.405
 Jersey and as much by,
 
 00:37:08.885 --> 00:37:10.867
 by chance as it is designed,
 
 00:37:10.907 --> 00:37:11.668
 but the Walker wreck,
 
 00:37:12.429 --> 00:37:14.289
 was one of the early ships
 
 00:37:14.449 --> 00:37:15.809
 that actually produced the
 
 00:37:15.849 --> 00:37:18.251
 first charts of the U.S.
 
 00:37:18.592 --> 00:37:19.072
 coastline.
 
 00:37:19.751 --> 00:37:21.632
 And Thomas Jefferson
 
 00:37:21.713 --> 00:37:23.193
 realized early on that the
 
 00:37:23.273 --> 00:37:24.454
 only way this country was
 
 00:37:24.494 --> 00:37:25.554
 going to survive was to
 
 00:37:25.594 --> 00:37:26.735
 make its own nautical
 
 00:37:26.795 --> 00:37:28.755
 charts so that people knew
 
 00:37:28.815 --> 00:37:29.556
 how to sail here.
 
 00:37:30.349 --> 00:37:30.510
 I mean,
 
 00:37:30.530 --> 00:37:32.251
 you look at the coastline and what
 
 00:37:32.451 --> 00:37:33.490
 got me interested in
 
 00:37:33.550 --> 00:37:35.170
 shipwrecks were the thousands,
 
 00:37:35.271 --> 00:37:36.351
 literally thousands of
 
 00:37:36.411 --> 00:37:37.572
 shipwrecks that had been
 
 00:37:38.371 --> 00:37:39.512
 sunk off the coast,
 
 00:37:39.592 --> 00:37:41.432
 not only of New Jersey, but New England,
 
 00:37:41.472 --> 00:37:43.074
 North Carolina, down to Florida,
 
 00:37:43.653 --> 00:37:44.974
 simply because people
 
 00:37:45.034 --> 00:37:46.255
 didn't know the waters and
 
 00:37:46.295 --> 00:37:47.295
 got stuck in a storm.
 
 00:37:48.335 --> 00:37:49.675
 So these charts were a plus
 
 00:37:49.735 --> 00:37:50.976
 and the Walker was part of it.
 
 00:37:51.577 --> 00:37:53.958
 It was one of the only coast
 
 00:37:54.018 --> 00:37:55.679
 survey ships to sink with
 
 00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:57.221
 private citizens on board.
 
 00:37:57.902 --> 00:38:00.063
 So NOAA declared it a
 
 00:38:00.164 --> 00:38:01.563
 National Historic Site.
 
 00:38:02.184 --> 00:38:03.405
 And I was privileged to be
 
 00:38:03.465 --> 00:38:05.206
 able to document all that
 
 00:38:05.246 --> 00:38:06.807
 with a lot of local friends.
 
 00:38:07.389 --> 00:38:08.489
 One of the few times where
 
 00:38:08.528 --> 00:38:09.570
 the government worked with
 
 00:38:09.630 --> 00:38:11.050
 divers and the divers were
 
 00:38:11.070 --> 00:38:11.992
 looking forward to
 
 00:38:12.692 --> 00:38:13.952
 documenting a shipwreck and
 
 00:38:13.992 --> 00:38:16.514
 not necessarily keeping the artifacts.
 
 00:38:17.175 --> 00:38:19.117
 right right it's amazing so
 
 00:38:19.376 --> 00:38:20.697
 steve I know we could keep
 
 00:38:20.757 --> 00:38:22.018
 talking about shipwrecks
 
 00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:23.980
 all day but I know you have
 
 00:38:24.420 --> 00:38:26.041
 probably a shipwrecks to
 
 00:38:26.081 --> 00:38:28.402
 get to um anything else we
 
 00:38:28.422 --> 00:38:29.722
 should add before we let you go
 
 00:38:32.054 --> 00:38:33.974
 remember the history for for
 
 00:38:34.074 --> 00:38:35.416
 all of you who are watching
 
 00:38:35.496 --> 00:38:37.496
 the 250th anniversary of
 
 00:38:37.617 --> 00:38:39.719
 our revolution is coming up
 
 00:38:39.838 --> 00:38:42.420
 and it's more than just
 
 00:38:42.541 --> 00:38:44.882
 going to some valley forge
 
 00:38:44.961 --> 00:38:46.003
 and a lot of the other
 
 00:38:46.083 --> 00:38:48.003
 battles if it weren't for
 
 00:38:48.023 --> 00:38:50.465
 the privateers we probably
 
 00:38:50.686 --> 00:38:51.726
 wouldn't have had a
 
 00:38:51.826 --> 00:38:54.228
 successful revolution and
 
 00:38:54.688 --> 00:38:56.030
 remember the history because
 
 00:38:56.070 --> 00:38:57.552
 it's where our country
 
 00:38:57.612 --> 00:38:59.474
 started and hopefully where
 
 00:38:59.516 --> 00:39:00.536
 we keep moving along.
 
 00:39:00.577 --> 00:39:02.039
 And thank you so much for
 
 00:39:02.099 --> 00:39:03.101
 letting me tell the story.
 
 00:39:03.641 --> 00:39:04.282
 Well, thank you, Steve.
 
 00:39:04.322 --> 00:39:04.963
 Thank you so much for
 
 00:39:05.023 --> 00:39:05.804
 joining us and thank you
 
 00:39:05.824 --> 00:39:06.885
 for the work you're doing to
 
 00:39:07.570 --> 00:39:09.092
 bring this history to light.
 
 00:39:09.112 --> 00:39:10.632
 It's really amazing stories.
 
 00:39:10.692 --> 00:39:12.632
 And Steve Nagowitz is the
 
 00:39:12.813 --> 00:39:13.612
 author of the Hidden
 
 00:39:13.652 --> 00:39:15.454
 History of Maritime New Jersey,
 
 00:39:15.534 --> 00:39:18.014
 which talks about lots of
 
 00:39:18.094 --> 00:39:19.195
 these shipwrecks that he's
 
 00:39:19.235 --> 00:39:20.195
 been talking about.
 
 00:39:20.514 --> 00:39:21.735
 And his article on the
 
 00:39:22.976 --> 00:39:24.436
 Chestnut Creek will be out
 
 00:39:24.536 --> 00:39:25.536
 in the Chestnut Point in
 
 00:39:25.556 --> 00:39:26.536
 the Archaeology of the
 
 00:39:26.577 --> 00:39:28.737
 American Revolution next year.
 
 00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:31.398
 So thank you so much for joining us,
 
 00:39:31.418 --> 00:39:31.639
 Steve.
 
 00:39:31.659 --> 00:39:32.599
 It's been great talking with
 
 00:39:32.619 --> 00:39:33.559
 you and catching up on
 
 00:39:33.880 --> 00:39:35.000
 what's going on underwater.
 
 00:39:35.820 --> 00:39:36.981
 Keep the podcast going.
 
 00:39:37.021 --> 00:39:37.320
 I love it.
 
 00:39:37.914 --> 00:39:38.474
 Well, we will.
 
 00:39:38.715 --> 00:39:39.076
 Thank you.
 
 00:39:39.396 --> 00:39:40.755
 And I want to thank Jonathan Lane,
 
 00:39:40.815 --> 00:39:43.157
 who really is keeping the podcast going.
 
 00:39:43.237 --> 00:39:45.378
 He's been our man behind the scenes today.
 
 00:39:45.579 --> 00:39:47.559
 And I also want to thank our
 
 00:39:47.579 --> 00:39:48.320
 many listeners.
 
 00:39:48.380 --> 00:39:49.661
 And every week we thank some
 
 00:39:49.701 --> 00:39:50.701
 in different parts of the
 
 00:39:50.780 --> 00:39:52.561
 world who are tuning in regularly.
 
 00:39:52.601 --> 00:39:53.222
 And if you're in one of
 
 00:39:53.262 --> 00:39:55.103
 these places and want, say,
 
 00:39:55.163 --> 00:39:57.204
 our Revolution 250 playing cards,
 
 00:39:58.085 --> 00:39:59.606
 send Jonathan Lane an email,
 
 00:39:59.666 --> 00:40:01.907
 jlane at revolution250.org.
 
 00:40:02.067 --> 00:40:03.067
 And this week I want to
 
 00:40:03.146 --> 00:40:04.128
 thank our listeners.
 
 00:40:04.807 --> 00:40:07.570
 in the Garden State in Wayne, Hamilton,
 
 00:40:07.590 --> 00:40:08.172
 Hewitt,
 
 00:40:08.552 --> 00:40:10.574
 Mendham and Trenton and other
 
 00:40:10.635 --> 00:40:12.135
 towns here in Massachusetts,
 
 00:40:12.195 --> 00:40:16.380
 Weymouth and Boston and Carmichael,
 
 00:40:16.420 --> 00:40:18.182
 California, Amman, Jordan,
 
 00:40:18.402 --> 00:40:20.005
 places between and beyond.
 
 00:40:20.605 --> 00:40:22.047
 And now we will be piped out
 
 00:40:22.206 --> 00:40:23.068
 on the road to Boston.