Classroom Caffeine
Classroom Caffeine
A Conversation with Doug Fisher
Dr. Doug Fisher is known for his prolific work in instructional design, curriculum development, and professional learning. Additionally, he is a teacher leader at Health Sciences High & Middle College, an award-winning, open-enrollment public school in the City Heights neighborhood of San Diego, California that he co founded in 2007. Previously, Doug was an early intervention teacher and elementary school educator. Much of his work has been published with San Diego State University colleague, Dr. Nancy Frey. Together, they offer tailored professional learning opportunities around the world. With colleagues, Doug has published over 250 books, chapters, and articles focused on school improvement including Rigor Unveiled, The Teacher Clarity Playbook, PLC+, and Welcome to Teaching. He is the recipient of an International Reading Association William S. Grey citation of merit and an Exemplary Leader award from the Conference on English Leadership of NCTE. He was named an Adolescent Literacy Thought Leader by the International Literacy Association in 2016 and elected into the Reading Hall of Fame in 2022. Doug loves being an educator and hopes to share that passion with others. Dr. Douglas Fisher is Professor of Educational Leadership at San Diego State University. You can connect with Dr. Fisher at https://www.fisherandfrey.com/ and follow him on X (formerly Twitter) for updates @DFISHERSDSU.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
International Literacy Association's Literacy Glossary - https://www.literacyworldwide.org/get-resources/literacy-glossary
To cite this episode:
Persohn, L. (Host). (2025, Mar. 11). A conversation with Doug Fisher (Season 5, No. 8) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/0A22-E8D7-3F09-096B-C056-D
Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
Education research has a problem. The work of brilliant education researchers often doesn't reach the practice of brilliant teachers. Classroom Caffeine is here to help. In each episode, I talk with a top education researcher or an expert educator about what they have learned from years of research and experiences. In this episode, dr Doug Fisher talks to us about collegial collaboration, a shared language of education and the joys in teaching.
Speaker 1:Doug is known for his prolific work in instructional design, curriculum development and professional learning. He is a teacher and leader at Health Sciences High and Middle College in San Diego, california. Much of his work has been published with San Diego State University colleague Dr Nancy Fry. Together they offer tailored professional learning opportunities around the world With colleagues. Doug has published over 250 books, chapters and articles focused on school improvement. He is the recipient of an International Reading Association William S Gray Citation of Merit. He's been named an exemplary leader by the Conference on English Leadership of the National Council for Teachers of English, an adolescent literacy thought leader by the International Literacy Association, and he is an elected member of the Reading Hall of Fame. Dr Douglas Fisher is a professor of educational leadership at San Diego State University. For more information about our guest, formerly Twitter for updates at dfishersdsu, that's, at d-f-i-s-h-e-r-s-d-s-u. So pour a cup of your favorite drink and join me. Your host, lindsay Persaud, for Classroom Caffeine research to energize your teaching practice. Doug, thank you for joining me. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thanks for the invitation.
Speaker 1:So, from your own experiences in education, will you share with us one or two moments that inform your thinking now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so one that first comes to mind was more than a decade ago, probably more than two decades ago, and I was teaching ninth grade English at Hoover High School and I had a student named Anthony, and Anthony taught me a lot. He didn't like to write, but had all these ideas and he didn't like to share it with the class. And we end up with all these different conversations and he started telling me stories, some of which were true and some of which were elaborations on the truth, and I said that's amazing, you should write it down. You should write it down, you have things to say, you have a voice, and we just really had this great conversation. And then he said to me I can't write. And I said, well, yeah, let's.
Speaker 2:And well, it turned out he could write. He didn't own a pair of glasses and so he couldn't see enough to write, and he'd never told anybody that. And I just I had this aha of what we just don't know about our students. And now it's pretty simple a pair of glasses causing him not to write, causing him not to want to write, thinking he didn't have a voice. But what else do we not know that, if we knew, would make a difference in the way we interacted with, held expectations for and design learning experiences for our students.
Speaker 1:It's so true, doug, I think you know we only see parts of people's lives, and no matter how much time we spend with students, no matter how much time we have to spend with them, we never really know what's going on, and sometimes it takes just some probing questions to begin to get to the bottom of what might be impacting their learning in some not so great ways. How wonderful when we can find those fairly simple solutions that can support them. Yeah, so what do you want listeners to know about your work?
Speaker 2:I'm really passionate about helping teachers, helping myself, helping, as a teacher, get better at my craft. How do I continually learn? How do I continually think about this amazing profession that we're part of? And, yes, it's hard and stressful and some days you go home with a broken heart and some days you go home with a filled heart. But always trying to get better is my quest.
Speaker 2:People say, oh, you write a lot. I write a lot with my colleague, nancy, because it helps us think. And some people say you don't write about the same thing. I mean, there are professors out there who have like an area of expertise and that's what they study and that's what they write about, who have like an area of expertise and that's what they study and that's what they write about. Nancy and I, because we're at a school, write about, think about, figure out things that are happening in real time in school. And so, yeah, we got all interested in scaffolding for a while and we got all interested in giving students feedback, all these different areas of how do we improve this very complex, complicated job called teaching. I hope that as I learn and Nancy and I learn, and we negotiate and argue and agree and disagree and then finally put something out in the world. I hope it helps. People say I could do that. I see how it happens, I see how it works, I see why it would be important and I can do that too.
Speaker 1:Doug, you just said two things that I think are so very important really for all teachers, and that's having that trusted colleague that you can talk about your ideas with, you can reflect with them, they can tell you when you're wrong, they can tell you when they've found a better way to do things, and just sharing those ideas back and forth. I think having someone that you really trust to do that is so important on this quest to become better and better at our craft. And I think the other thing you said that really resonates with me is the idea of writing as a part of our reflective practice. I feel like as a classroom teacher, that wasn't something that I engaged with maybe not really ever and I think that it's an important reminder of what writing is really for, that it is for us to process and to think, but also a reminder that maybe we can work that in to. Part of our professional learning is writing about what we're doing.
Speaker 2:And wouldn't that be a great start or closure to a professional learning community or professional learning event Like here's what we're talking about today. We're talking about you know, teaching, spelling or whatever. What's your experience with it, what's your thinking about and like committing to it in writing, like we say to our students, like we say we want you to do a quick write and kind of put your thinking on paper. I'll also comment about what you said about having a colleague. Nancy would say Doug has an idea every day, every day, I wake up with an idea. They're not all good, that's the thing. And yes, I might have had an idea, but they're not all good.
Speaker 2:And when you trust someone and you know each other well, we teach together, we write together and I think being able to say you know that could work, let's do it, or you know that's not really a good idea because, but having that colleague down the hall or online or wherever you have that colleague, where you have some time in your work life to have those conversations, so that give and take that I think one of the reasons I love my job so much is I'm connected with a whole bunch of professionals who I respect and value, who helped me think, who pushed me, who allowed me to push them.
Speaker 2:Nancy is my major collaborator, but I work at a high school and they are amazing people here who really push and do I mean like every day, show up to be the best they can be, and I think when we're connected that way, it's super protective of our well-being, of our professional generosity and this is our sense of when we go home that we made a difference and that together we accomplished great things made a difference and that together we accomplished great things.
Speaker 1:That's so important, and I appreciate you also highlighting that this is a part of, I think, it's taking care of ourselves professionally. But also there is this emotional and sort of social well-being aspect of it. Right, if you feel as though you're teaching in a vacuum, I think the job is just exceedingly difficult. But whenever you have people around you who are supportive and who will say, oh, that sounds like a great idea, let's think about that some more. Or I'm not so sure about that one I think that it really does help us to feel more human in the profession and to kind of bring our whole selves to what we do.
Speaker 1:And I think the other thing that I hear in what you shared is that I can relate to is having an easy relationship with someone, somebody you can you know you can send them a text and it may not be 100 percent accurate, but they know what you're talking about. You know those kinds of things, because I think that in in the the pace of life right now, we need those kinds of easy relationships where we don't have to formalize every idea. We can sort of just throw it out there and see what sticks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really like that you're saying that you feel a part of a profession when you can do that, and I am not part of any other profession, so I don't know. But I just have in my mind that people who have a shared vocation and a shared career path have these conversations. I assume that's how all these other professions move forward. You know, like I'm having some construction work done in the house, I assume they talk to each other. I listen to them. I think that's important. I assume other professionals come together and they test ideas and they share their successes and they ask clarifying questions and that's what we have to be part of as teachers.
Speaker 2:We have to be able to say there's a lot of just in the world of literacy. There's a lot of stress going on in the reading world right now about are we teaching it right? What are we teaching? How are we teaching it? How do we know we've taught it? And there's a lot of tension and some people are being vilified and being told they're bad teachers because they're not doing X. So how do we connect and support and and if there are things we still need to learn? Yes, but being protected other people keeps us here.
Speaker 1:I was just thinking along those same lines. I mean, I think this is what it takes. No-transcript what it's all about.
Speaker 2:So I've argued for a long time way back in the first, one of the first articles I ever wrote in my life around having a shared vocabulary of teaching and learning a shared language, and I was given an example of this simple phrase shared reading and people were saying shared reading. And I was in a meeting and I think everyone had a different definition of what that meant shared reading. So we couldn't have a conversation because we all activated in our minds our definition of what it meant to have a shared reading. Years, years later, when close reading became a thing, nancy and I put out in the world here's a definition. You can argue with us and whatever, but here's a definition because if we're going to talk about something, let's all at least agree this will be a close reading. Other things may be equally valuable for students learning, but it's not going to be called a close reading. And then we had to differentiate between close listening for younger kids and close reading for as they got a little older and then fast forward. When I was on the board of the International Literacy Association, I asked and we created a glossary for literacy terms, because there are so many words and phrases out there that have different meanings to different people and we have a hard time having a profession.
Speaker 2:My sister is an oncology nurse and their vocabulary is very specific and very precise and they all know what they're saying. They also have the art of their craft of dealing with patients who are seeking cancer treatments. There's an art to it, there's a passion that comes there, there's a compassion and empathy that comes. But there's also a technical language and skill set that they use. And I like to joke my sister, and say you know, you don't go to work one day and say you know what? I think I'll do your chemotherapy injection in your neck because it just seemed like a fun thing. Today there's a professional responsibility and I know my sister's style is different than other nurses in the same clinic, but they're connected and they have a vocabulary and I felt like we have a lot of invented words. You know the next thing? We name it an acronym and then we don't all know what we're talking about. So I think having shared vocabulary, shared language, helps us communicate with other professionals.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I really appreciate that ILA glossary. I have actually used excerpts from it in a community resource directory that I support in the community where I live, know the lingo and perhaps you know, be able to ask informed questions or even understand sometimes you know what's being presented to them at an open house or some other kind of school event. You know, because we know that not all family members, not all parents, have had really positive experiences in school and may not know the vocabulary. So when they're working to support their children, we wanted to give them a tool so that they could speak the language too. So thank you for that. It really is a super helpful resource, thank you, and we can link to that in your show notes as well, so that anyone who's looking to tap into that resource would have that. So, doug, given the challenges of today's educational climate, what message do you want teachers to hear?
Speaker 2:A couple that come to mind. First, you're powerful and I don't know why, but teachers don't tend to take credit for what they do. We tend to like deflect. Oh, it wasn't me. We're powerful, we're amazing and we help. We contribute to young people's learning. I'm not saying we're the only cause of their learning and development and growth, but we are a major influence and I think being able to say I taught that they learned it, it feels amazing. I think that's important and to recognize the impact we have.
Speaker 2:The other thing, in trying times and and the realities and some people are still talking about you know things like depression and anxiety and all the stuff that's happening Some people are still talking about. You know things like depression and anxiety and all the stuff that's happening, and you know whether it's post-COVID or, you know, because of screens and things, you know there's a lot of conversation. Regardless of that, I want people to think about the kids coming back and looking us in the face and saying do you remember me? And having that experience of young people, whether they were your kindergarten kid or a senior in your calculus class. When they come back and say do you remember me? Because we created experiences that were memorable and life-changing, and it may not have seemed that in the moment, but they are paying attention, they are with us, they are with us and they are learning with us and I hope we hold that in our heart, that this profession is an honor, because we get to shape lives and watch learning occur in real time.
Speaker 1:Which, in my mind, is one of the most fun things a person could possibly do is just watching anyone learn, watching them take on new ideas, make them their own, ask questions about them and put them together with things they already know. It really is an honor, so I appreciate that. Doug. Yeah, I really appreciate that. Well, thank you so much for spending some time with me today, doug, and I greatly appreciate your tremendous contributions to the world of education.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I really appreciate that. Thanks for the invitation, of course.
Speaker 1:Dr Doug Fisher is known for his prolific work in instructional design, curriculum development and professional learning. Additionally, he is a teacher leader at Health Sciences High and Middle College, an award-winning open enrollment public school in the City Heights neighborhood of San Diego, california, that he co-founded in 2007. Previously, doug was an intervention teacher and elementary school educator. Much of his work has been published with San Diego State University colleague, dr Nancy Fry. Together they offer tailored professional learning opportunities around the world With colleagues. Doug has published over 250 books, chapters and articles focused on school improvement, including Rigor Unveiled, the Teacher Clarity Playbook, plc Plus and Welcome to Teaching. He is the recipient of an International Literacy Association William S Gray Citation of Merit and has won the Exemplary Leader Award from the Conference on English Leadership of the National Council for Teachers of English. He was named an Adolescent Literacy Thought Leader by the International Literacy Association in 2016 and elected into the Reading Hall of Fame in 2022. Doug loves being an educator and hopes to share that passion with others. Dr Douglas Fisher is Professor of Educational Leadership at San Diego State University. You can connect with Dr Fisher at wwwfisherandfrycom and follow him on ex-formerly Twitter for updates at dfisherandfrycom, and follow him on X, formerly Twitter for updates at DFisherSDSU.
Speaker 1:For the good of all students, classroom Caffeine aims to energize education, research and practice. If this show gives you things to think about, help us spread the word. Talk to your colleagues and educator friends about what you hear. You can support the show by subscribing, liking and reviewing this podcast through your podcast provider. Visit classroomcaffeinecom, where you can subscribe to receive our short monthly newsletter, the Espresso Shot. On our website, you can also learn more about each guest, find transcripts for our episodes, explore topics using our drop-down menu of tags, request an episode, topic or potential guest, support our research through our listener survey or learn more about the research we're doing on our publications page. Connect with us on social media through Instagram, facebook and Twitter. We would love to hear from you. Special thanks to the Classroom Caffeine team Leah Berger, abaya Valuru, stephanie Branson and Shaba Oshfath. As always, I raise my mug to you, teachers. Thanks for joining me.