From Mountains to Boardrooms: Developing Grit in Leadership

In this episode of The Construction Influencer Podcast, the host Nicole Sanchez welcomes Wendy Cohen, President of Kitchell, to discuss leadership, perseverance, and personal growth. 

With over 25 years of experience in the construction industry, Wendy shares her insights on pushing through obstacles and building grit - learned through extreme feats that she believes can be translated into her professional journey. Wendy emphasizes the importance of leaders creating a safe environment where team members can feel comfortable making mistakes and exploring ideas without fear of negative consequences. 

The two discuss vulnerability in leadership and the personal and professional benefits of being authentic. Wendy also shares her company's inspiring 10-year vision of shaping the future of the industry, driving innovation, and improving productivity and outcomes. Don't miss this empowering conversation between two industry trailblazers who inspire greatness in leadership.

Transcript

Nicole (00:07):

Welcome to the Construction Influencer Podcast. I am your host, Nicole Sanchez. This podcast is all about leadership, a topic that I'm extremely passionate about. This is a platform for leaders to learn from other leaders. You see, when leaders are committed to a lifelong journey of learning, they tend to be well equipped to not only have their businesses survive but thrive. If you're new to the podcast, welcome. If you're a returning listener, thank you so much for your continued support. I am extremely excited about this episode. I think I've had this on my calendar for about a month, maybe two. And today we have a guest that I am so privileged to have on. It's an honor to have her here. She is the President of Kitche, Wendy Cohen. Welcome to the Influencer Podcast, and thank you for taking time out to be here. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.

Wendy (01:05):

Sorry, go ahead.

Nicole (01:07):

I am going to share a little bit about Wendy, and I'm sure it's just the tip of the iceberg of who she is. I'm going to read it so that I don't miss anything because she's got a quite impressive background. So as I mentioned, Wendy is the president of Kitchell happy anniversary, 10 year anniversary in June. Is that right?

Wendy (01:27):

Yes. Yes. Very good. In

Nicole (01:28):

June. Very good. Wendy has more than 25 years in the building industry. Wendy has worked in many aspects of the construction business as a general contractor, construction manager, consultant, and owner. Lean in and listen to her physical feats. This is extraordinary. They include four, not just one, it probably wasn't enough, but four grand canyon rim to rim, to rim to rim tracks in ultramarathon, in Zion National Park, and a sent up kill mo Mount Kilimanjaro. I giggle because who does that? And the California aids ride from San Francisco to Los Angeles. Wendy, this is unbelievable. Not only do you have an impressive professional background, but your physical achievements and accomplishments are incredibly extraordinary. I'm going to flip the script a little bit on how we run with this podcast. Typically, I would say, Hey, tell us a little bit about Kitche. I want to hold that until the end because I want to talk about what you have accomplished, and I really want to get to know the psyche of Wendy Cohen and what motivated these physical feats. Why have you done all of these extraordinary things?

Wendy (02:49):

So interestingly enough, I think that they're interconnected, right? So I think professional and personal, interconnected, I learned probably the hard way. But about 15 years, one of the things I learned is that we need to bring our whole self to work, every bit of us. And so these different physical challenges, whether it's Grand Canyon or ultra marathon, one of the things I found for myself is every time I challenge myself kind of physically with these bigger than kind of possible feats, at least that I consider for me, I learned something about myself. And I think ultimately it builds grit. It builds that ability to believe in yourself, that you're things are bigger than things are possible that you never thought you are capable of. I've learned some amazing life lessons that I've been able to translate into business, particularly. I'll give you a story about the Grand Canyon.

(03:47):

The reason I've done that trek four times is because the first time it was so horrible and I learned so much that I really, in my mind, needed to go back and do it well a few times before I felt like I completed, what I learned and what I really learned in my first Grand Canyon track is the importance of humility and that you can't do everything yourself. My first Grand Canyon track at the bottom of the canyon gets very hot, and it was probably over 110 degrees, and I got really sick and I needed help to get out, but there's no way, other way out than to walk out. And I had eight hours of hiking in front of me, and I had somebody that I was with, and we had a guide. And what I learned in that moment is that I had to be completely give up any control, which is very hard for me, and really submit myself and to be completely humble about accepting help.

(04:45):

And to this day, I still think about that moment and about how important it is to know that I can't do everything by myself. And this particularly as a leader, that's really important because you need to have a really fantastic team around you. So I use those physical feats to challenge me personally, to kind of build my own grit and even self-confidence. I love the process. I love the process of training. I like that consistency. I, it's the journey more than the actual event. But I think it's so important because you can translate, translate those things into your business, into your business world, your business life. And when the going gets tough, I cannot, I'll often find myself going back to those things that I did and think about, I could do this. It's not going to be that that bad. I can do this. And now I'm like, I'm always onto something else. Right now. I'm on the next thing

Nicole (05:42):

I was thinking, I was like, okay, so these were a little bit ago, and I'm sure that you're onto the next big thing, maybe another Mount Kilimanjaro or something. But that is unbelievable. You said so many things just now that my brain is like, oh my gosh, we could talk about this. There's so much in this because we talked about your relationship with failure and that first track that you did with the Grand Canyon, you didn't just take it on crap, I failed. I'm a failure. You went in and you were like, I'm going to achieve this thing. You also talked about not doing things alone, which you're absolutely right as leaders, and it just as leaders and being part of a team, knowing that we need that unity of having everybody together is so important. So I know that your mentality is how you do anything is how you do everything. You said. Basically, what I do in my personal life is how I'm going to show up in my professional life, which is absolutely accurate. So the question is, you have developed, there's a couple of questions, but we'll start with the first one in terms of you have developed this mindset of complete grit, like you are a gritty, gritty, inspirational woman. How do you transfer that to your team?

Wendy (07:04):

I think by encouraging them to find their own mountain. So whatever that could be in their, and it can show up in lots of different ways, but really encouraging them to push themselves out of their comfort zone to be comfortable with failure. It was interesting hearing you kind of repeat back to me in your own words what I just said about the failure piece. Because when you say failure, my immediate reaction is like, I'm not comfortable with failure. I actually don't love it. But the reality is, in order to advance anything, whether it's in your personal life, your professional life, you have to be comfortable with failure. And I think in order to be comfortable with failure, you have to have a team around you or people around you that are willing to pick you up when it doesn't go well. And so I think for people that I work with and then I have the opportunity to lead, I want them to find their own great in their own way, but what I want to do is create an environment where they're willing to try and know that failure is part of that process and that you learn every time you fail.

(08:08):

Part of the second part of the Grand Canyon story is that that year only, the whole goal is to go south to north and then turn around the next day and go north to south, 44 miles and 24,000 feet of climbing a lot. And that first time I didn't make it back The second day, I had a ride in a bus back to the other side and meet the group that finished. And that level of humility and feeling of failure, I could have, could have cracked it in and never come back. But I actually did the opposite and thought, no, I'm going to come back and I'm going to do it even better, and I am going to be fully committed in a different way. And so that's what, to me, builds the grit. It's the failure, it's facing that failure, feeling it and having that support. And so I really feel like we need to support each other in challenging ourselves in whatever way it means for each one of us and making sure that everyone has that support and the ability to fail every once in a while.

Nicole (09:11):

Yeah, I think you're spot on with the adversity, right? We've got to have the adversity to be able to trip and learn and to get back up and to do it better than we did at the time before. You mentioned creating an environment where people can feel like they can learn and develop and make mistakes. What does that type of environment look like? What is that like? How do you create that as a leader?

Wendy (09:32):

Yeah, so I'm been researching quite a bit and reading quite a bit lately about fixed mindset versus learning mindset, which fixed mindset organization is an organization that is very adversely changed, stuck in many ways, and a learning mindset, which is very inquisitive and appreciative about how things, possibilities, and how things could be different, and really allowing the exploration of ideas. And so I think that's a significant factor. I also think being able to talk about, Hey, I am going to try something and it's risky and I need your help to make sure that I have all the tools and resources and know that I might not make it. I think that's a component. One of the other things that I think is important is not setting unrealistic goals. That's a double negative. But one of the things I see in organizations quite a bit, and even in ours, is that we tend to hit goals that we know we can beat and we can beat by 20 or 30%. And ultimately, I think in an organization that kind of breeds complacency. And so I think that having an environment where we set realistic goals where maybe if you hit 80% of the goal, that's a win because you're doing more than you've ever done before. I think all of those things start to build a culture where you are supporting and rewarding the trying and the efforts and not always fixated on that final number or what that final outcome is.

Nicole (11:08):

I love what you said about basically being approachable as a leader, having people know that they're comfortable to come to you, to be able to be like, Hey, I'm going to try this. I think, I dunno how it's going to work out, but at least I feel like I can be vulnerable enough with you as my leader or my mentor or whoever you are for that person to be able to run with it and we can pivot together if we need to. Yeah, I love that.

Wendy (11:35):

And I think that starts with, can I just make a comment? I think that starts with you as a leader being vulnerable, right? Because Oh, for sure. You can't expect others around you to show up in their vulnerability until you show up that way and that you are human, right? You're a hundred percent human with all your flaws and makes it comfortable for others to do the same.

Nicole (11:56):

Yeah. When we spoke the first time, you actually had talked about, I wrote it down and I had it circled, but you were talking about the vulnerability hangover. Do you remember that?

Wendy (12:06):

Yes, I know. Vulnerability hangover. Well, yes, yes. So I have this, and I've heard, I probably picked it up from somebody else, so I didn't certainly in invent the term, but it's really when you put yourself out there and you do something that is outside of your comfort zone. And I've experienced it, and I think that is leadership. If you are doing leader, if you're as a leader, if you are pushing the boundaries and you are feeling vulnerable on a regular basis, which I generally do, you sometimes wake up the next morning and you're thinking, oh my gosh, this was too much. It was too out there. What are people thinking? What are people saying? How is that going to be perceived? And I think that also builds grit, right? Because you didn't that like, oh, I didn't die.

Nicole (12:53):

Ok, you didn't die.

Wendy (12:56):

There's a conversation about vulnerability. And Brene Brown is somebody who talks about vulnerability quite a bit and somebody I love, but which is, there's a difference between vulnerability and sharing every single thing about you and there versus be showing up as a vulnerable person and a vulnerable leader in sharing experiences and stories. And sometimes we get mixed up with those two things. I'm going to tell you everything about everything in my life that's not vulnerability. Vulnerability is different. And it really allows people to get to know you on a personal level. And that doesn't mean they know everything, but they also can see you in a real way, which then fosters their own vulnerability and their ability to take risks and their abil and even I think encourages them to show up as a hundred percent themselves in the workplace, which I think is so important. And something that I avoided for probably the first 10 years of my career. Cause I was told not to. All the messages coming at me were like, you can't show up. A hundred percent is yourself.

Nicole (13:56):

It's the authenticity.

Wendy (13:58):

Yes,

Nicole (13:58):

Yes. Authenticity coupled with the vulnerability, being able to show up who you are as Wendy Cohen, and obviously it works out. So being brave enough to be able to show up authentically but not exposing, like you said, exposing all of your life because that's not really what it's about. Yes. But you're a hundred percent right. The, our teams then follow the lead. They follow the lead on being authentic, on being vulnerable, on creating this environment in the workplace that actually it can thrive because people then are showing up as themselves, and it's not like some fake person. If you're showing up as the leader who you're really not, it's such a disservice. It's such a disservice to the people that you get to serve.

Wendy (14:47):

And I think one of the things that makes me the most proud is to see others in the organization mimic that. So I might try, try something new in a meeting and it might fail. And I would say I'm always trying new things in our leadership meetings, in our staff meetings. And I have seen over the last couple of years, different leaders within organization take things that they saw in a meeting that I led, and then do that within their own meetings. And what I love about that is that they are watching, they're listening, they're paying attention, and then they also feel comfortable to be vulnerable themselves and put themselves out there with their own team and do something that might make them feel a little bit uncomfortable. I would tell you that my leadership team, every time they come to a leadership meeting now they're like, oh, what are we going to do this time? What exercises, when are you going to make us do? But I think that that's so important in leadership is trying new things and fostering that kind of culture where leaders feel comfortable to go to their teams and to work with their teams in different ways and to figure out what works for themselves.

Nicole (16:01):

Absolutely. You're on the topic, and it's one of the questions that I wanted to ask you, and it's about, I've heard you say on in multiple channels, I, you're on a YouTube video, I think that talks about your fascination of architecture and construction, but where your passion lies is in exactly what you're talking about is developing other leaders. So let's just talk about that for a little bit. And you're already in it, you're kind of talking about having being the example in the role model for your team, basically. So talk to me about where that passion comes from and then we'll just kind of peel it back from there.

Wendy (16:41):

Yeah, I think you alluded to the fact that I started out in my career fascinated with architecture and buildings and everything construction, and I still am, I'm still a nerd when it comes to those kinds of things. I actually listened to a podcast on the way to work this morning about earthquakes and buildings. And so that kind of stuff still fascinates me. But as my careers progress and I've had the opportunity be part of really amazing teams, I've become absolutely obsessed with leadership and creating the platform and the opportunity to see others grow and also really harnessing and understanding that leadership is a process, it's not a destination. So I think so many people in their careers look at a position or a title and say like, oh, I want to be that. I've never thought that. I've always just thought, this is how I want to feel, which is very, some people don't understand that this is what I want to feel like in the position, this is how I want. And then the feel is about how I impact other people really.

Nicole (17:45):

But what's the feeling? How do you want to feel

Wendy (17:47):

Fulfilled? Inspired? Yeah. Yeah. I'm so inspired when I see others lead well and to see that we have had the opportunity to create an environment where they feel comfortable to explore their own leadership, really, I might lead a certain way and it might be completely different than somebody that I work with or somebody that I'm peers with. And that doesn't mean it's right or wrong, it just means it's different. And what I've learned over the years is that you have to have your opportunity to grow into your own leadership style and to try a lot of things. And so for me, being able to create that environment and watch other leaders can come into their own and try things and fail and then have really great successes is the most rewarding thing that I've ever had the opportunity to do it. And it really inspires me.

(18:40):

I get up every day and I'm excited about that. Yes, I still love building, but now we just get to create the leaders and develop those leaders that then can lead those projects and those buildings that are creating the next generation of leaders. So yeah, I'm just fascinated by leadership in general. I'm always reading and watching and paying attention to how other leaders manage certain situations and how they articulate their vision and where they're headed. I think it, it's, you mentioned at the very beginning, it's a constant learning pro process. Yeah. It's constantly consuming information and trying to learn myself.

Nicole (19:21):

So to couple, getting developing leaders to be leaders and the topic of grit, because that's really what we, we started the podcast with. What are some things that our listeners on today's episode could walk away with in terms of developing their grit and into to know to move forward?

Wendy (19:46):

First? And this is always my advice, is say yes. Say yes, say yes, say yes. There's so many opportunities that we overthink that we slow play and the opportunity passes us up. The second thing I will say is, raise your hand. Because sometimes you're not asked if you want to be part of something, and often people feel overlooked, and that can be hard, but sometimes you need to advocate for yourself and you need to raise your hand. Very early on in my career, I was an intern. I was working at a job site. I was, at the time, it was called secretary, a job site secretary. And I had my boss call me and he said, look, we're looking for a project engineer and anybody that could be a project engineer. And it was a very short conversation. He hung up and that was it.

(20:37):

And I'm thinking, I hung up. I'm like, why wouldn't he think me how I couldn't do it? And so I picked up the phone and I called him back and I said, can I be considered for this position? And I end up taking that position and the rest is history. But I just think there's so many times when we tend to sit back, and I think sometimes you just have to ask, is it possible that I can be considered to do that, or I have an idea? So say, yes, raise your hand and advocate for yourself. The other thing is, I would say, find opportunities that stretch you and that scare the heck out of you. And make sure that you have sponsors in your workplace or even outside of your workplace that understand you, understand what you're capable of. I read, I, I listened to this amazing podcast not that long ago about sponsors and mentors and the sponsor. This, I think sponsors are so critical in your career and really understanding how to have somebody that really understands you and that can advocate for you in the workplace is absolutely critical.

Nicole (21:46):

Yeah, it is. A hundred percent. Yeah. So a couple of things came to mind. You're like, say yes, raise your hand. There's a saying that says you have to step out to find out, step out to find out is what I heard you say. And then also be comfortable being uncomfortable.

Wendy (22:04):

Yes, yes. I will tell you that that is a skill that you learn to get better and better at. It's something I'm working on constantly. I actually had a coach one time that said to me that I'm a hustler and I'm, wait, what does that mean? And she said, you, you're a doer, right? You're constantly doing, and she actually planted this in my head, and I thought about it quite a lot over the last couple of years, is that part of that hustling is to avoid the uncomfortable feeling. So if you're doing always and you're checking everything on your list, and so how do you really settle into saying, this is going to be uncomfortable for a while. I'm not going to feel that I'm at my best. And I also have realized over the years that feeling of uncomfortable or thinking that everything that's going on and you're in control is very cyclical when you're learning. And when you're deep in the work and you're really learning, you feel really inadequate and that you don't know what you're doing. And then

Nicole (23:06):

Vulnerability,

Wendy (23:07):

Yes. And then as you start to come out of that and you start to Synthes, synthesize the information you're putting in, into the real work, then you start to come up and you're just like, I actually know what I'm doing. You get to the top of that and you think you're amazing. You're like, this is great. I got it. And then something happened that'll build grit and it will create adversity. And then all of a sudden, your self-esteem will take you, I, oh, shoot, didn't, I've never faced this before. How do I do that? And so I've always tried to think of those as cycles. And so when I'm feeling really vulnerable and very uncomfortable, I remind myself this is a moment. And eventually, if I think enough about it, I give myself enough space, I learn as much as I can, I will move out of that. But yeah, it's really uncomfortable at times.

Nicole (23:57):

Really, those are the buckle your seatbelt moments,

Wendy (24:02):

Right?

Nicole (24:02):

Buckle up, hold on, tight, get through. And then just like you said, it's kind of cyclical. It goes mountaintop and into the valleys and ride it out. And then those, and sometimes,

Wendy (24:15):

And sometimes that it happens to you because of circumstances outside of your control. And sometimes you, that's pushing it forward because you want to feel that way. And so it's really interesting. It happens in at different times. It's a little bit easier to manage when you know, put yourself in the situation, but it still feels the same. You still have those same feelings. And I know when I'm in that phase, I know what phase. I could tell you any point different times in the last couple years, this is where I was at. And I also think it's really helpful from a mindfulness perspective to know where you're at and what do you need as a leader and as an individual to kind of care for yourself in that space, right? Because you need different things at different time.

Nicole (25:01):

And to your point earlier, who can you reach out to for support in that moment? Right? Right. Yeah,

Wendy (25:06):

Right. I have a list of people. I have a list of people depending on the situation that might get the phone call.

Nicole (25:13):

That's great. It's so good. Okay, we have just a couple of minutes left. I do want you to be able to talk a little bit a about Kitche, maybe just quickly who you guys are in the marketplace, who's a target client, what are you experiencing and maybe something interesting that's going on.

Wendy (25:31):

Yeah, absolutely. So kitchell, we provide consulting services, primarily program construction and project management services to our clients. Most of our clients are public clients that public funding across the United States and our core markets are he para city, municipal corrections education. And we are, my main focus from a business perspective right now is really looking at what's the dynamics of the market, how do we help and support our clients? The most last couple of years have been very interesting from a construction perspective. And so really trying to help our clients navigate the market a bit. I would say a couple years ago, you would time the market. There's no timing the market at the moment. And so I think everybody's really looking at the economic data and what's going to happen over the next couple of years. And I think for us, it's really about advising and making sure that our clients are making sound decisions and preparing for the future, whatever that may be, and where, wherever those projects might be, and making sure that they're really thinking ahead and in the long term, not the short term in terms of some we're doing at Kitchell.

(26:44):

That's exciting. We just embarked in December of last year, we rolled out our 10 year vision, which is pretty exciting. We spent a year developing that internally within the company with all of our employees reaching out to clients and getting their input. And so that's really exciting and it's really for us about shaping the future of the industry, being thought leaders in the industry, driving innovation in the industry. And I have a strong belief that this industry has pertained rapidly because we are not as effective as other industries when it comes to productivity and outcomes. And so I think there's a great opportunity for innovation in really changing the direction of the industry in the next decade. And I think that if Kit is focused enough that we are definitely up for that challenge. So

Nicole (27:33):

Good. Where do people find you, Wendy, if they want to reach out to you

Wendy (27:36):

On LinkedIn, that's the best place to find me.

Nicole (27:40):

It's been a privilege. You are an extraordinary person. Such an inspiration. I love your leadership philosophy. We did even get to talk about some of the things that I know that we shared with each other on our initial call. So maybe another time, or even if you're here in Southern California, if we can catch up, it would be great to just chat with you and learn from you. Again, such an honor to have you.

Wendy (28:03):

Pleasure being here today. Thank you.

Nicole (28:05):

Thank you for listening. Subscribe and share. I'll see you guys soon.