E8: Craig Norenbergs - journalist, manager, and sports fan

In this episode of Dear 21-Year-Old Me, with guest Craig Norenbergs

• We go back in time to 1989 when our guest, Craig Norenbergs, turned 21, and look at what was happening in the world, and closer to home back then.
  
  
• Craig reflects on his experiences growing up in Canberra.
  
  
• We talk about how Craig's leadership style has evolved, and the importance of humility. 
  
  
• Craig reflects on how he got his start in the media, driving across two states to try and do so, and how literally a 'break' was the break he needed to get into the media.
  
  
• Craig talks about the day he was at work, the phone rang, and on the other end was Kerry Packer.
  
  
• Craig looks back on his career and his personal leadership lessons, including what it has been like living overseas including in New Zealand.
  
  
• We ask Craig what he'd say to his 21-year-old self, and what Craig at 21 would say to himself now.

Mentioned in the show

Eddie Norenbergs (Craig's Dad)'s story on how he and his family came to Australia
CTC 7 Canberra promo, 1986
TEN Capital News, December 1988
The Breeze, New Zealand radio station promo
Scruff Lovely (Canberra band) - Canberra Times article 1994

Craig on Twitter

Dear 21 Year Old Me (Jeremy Irvine - host) and Pro Podcast Production

• Dear21 Year Old Me website
• Pro Podcast Production website

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Transcript

Jeremy Irvine (host):  Hi there and thanks so much for joining us. Today, a different introduction, given that the changes that occurred in the New Zealand media landscape took place after our interview with Craig Norenbergs. 

I recorded this interview with Craig in mid-March 2023. Today FM, which Craig talks about with me and we reflect upon both generally and quite specifically in relation to the media in New Zealand and his work, went to air for the last time on the 30th of March, 2023.  It's Craig's blessing that we've left the interview as is. It's a great reflection on his perspectives of the media in New Zealand and indeed mine, someone who is interested in media, both here in Australia and New Zealand, and in fact, in many other places. 

So a shout out to everyone, no matter where you are, no matter what industry you are working in that is going through significant change and a particular shout out to the people on Today FM whose radio station ceased going to air in quite dramatic circumstances, would be fair to say on the 30th of March, 2023. This episode now with Craig Norenbergs here on Dear 21-Year-Old Me. 

Thanks so much for joining us. On the show we catch up with Craig Norenbergs, journalist and manager. Now, Australians will know Craig from his time at the ABC and Sky News. New Zealanders will know Craig from his time with Sky TV and on commercial TV and radio. Craig's had a fascinating career from his days in regional TV in Canberra, working in London, Doha and now New Zealand, including heading up the ABC's iconic Grandstand program, for example. But before we meet Craig, let's go back into 1989, the year 1989 to find out what was happening when he was turning 21. 

In Australia, interest rates on home mortgages reach 17%. Can you imagine that? 17%. Bob Hawke is PM. Labor in Queensland comes to power for the first time since, get this, 1957. Those were the Joh years. While the first elections are held for the Australian capital territory, Canberra. Young Talent Time said 'good night Australia'. It's cancelled after having been on air since 1971. Meanwhile, the introduction of aggregation where regional TV audiences go from having one commercial TV station in the area to up to three comes to Canberra and southern New South Wales. And we'll hear more of that with Craig. In sport, Australia regains the Ashes on English soil for the first time in 40 years, defeating England four - zip in the six-test Ashes series. I remember that vividly sleeping very little, except sometimes in English class with Mr. Biggins. Sorry about that - listening to the ABC and BBC coverage. The Canberra Raiders defeat the Balmain Tigers 19 to 14 in extra time. And in the Super Bowl, the San Francisco 49ers win 20 to 16 over the Cincinnati Bengals. In the US, George H.W. Bush (that was the dad), is sworn in as president. Meanwhile the Exxon Valdez oil spill in Alaska's Prince William Sound sees 240,000 barrels of oil released after the ship runs aground. And in the US, the Simpsons, remember the Simpsons? Oh, Bart Lacer and the Saxophone. Simpsons premieres on Fox. In New Zealand, TV3 begins broadcasting and Sunday trading commences. Australians were listening to Madonna's Like a Prayer, the pretenders, I'm going to be 500 miles and one that I love to sing much to my son, Sauragas in the car, did it the other day and he was mortified. That was pretty good. Tucker's daughter. It's 1989. So you and our guest Craig Norenberg turned 21. Craig, welcome. You heard the introduction when we stepped back into 1989, which was the year that you turned 21. What do you remember about that year? A young man with dreams, going back to 1989. No, actually, I just think I was at A&U, the Australian National University in Canberra. I was just trying to survive through Union, make it through. And that was my dream was to get the degree. But I was still in 1989. I had a great job working for Swain Stationers in Canberra, who I don't think they exist anymore. They're a big stationary company. And I used to drive the truck. I was a delivery guy. That was my holiday job. Still the best job I've had. I'd have the radio on and be driving around and from shop to shop and, and doing that. Um, and I was working weekends at SSSFM, which doesn't exist anymore, which was the TAB racing station in Canberra. Uh, I booked on a show called Backpage Sunday. In Canberra, that's right. Um, yeah. And, um, with, uh, a wonderful manager, um, who I've got a call out to him. Jim Patterson was his name. It really gave me my first break. by, he was a family friend and had said, come in on the weekends and do this. And one of the guys that worked on it was Gavin Morris, who ended up being the head of news at the ABC also worked on that show. And another guy, Richard Stevenson, who had worked in radio, but now works in public service in Canberra. So a lot of good people, Chris Coleman, who calls radius games and story radio career as well, he worked at Triple S. So there are a lot of well-known names that came through then there. And I knew it was a great uni. Great uni. to be at and it was a good time riding my bike. Everywhere. Canberra had a great bike system. Um, so 89 and I think I had my first serious girlfriend. So, you know, it was broken hearts and big dreams and, and, and in the ride, it's one of the grand final, of course. So that was the high one. It would have been very happy. Yeah, very. People can't see us, but behind Craig's shoulder is that he's a camera I don't know a digital clock or something for me from the time of digital clock camera milk ads. So I've got lots of little figurines from the era. Excellent. Cause you grew up in the inner north of Canberra. So it wouldn't have been hard to get to uni. I guess you literally, you didn't have to go far from the inner north of Canberra to the central part of Canberra. Yeah. So yeah. Born in Quamian grew up in the inner north and I just used to go, uh, just It was downhill most of the way to uni. Riding back was a bit hilly, but I wonder how fit, how fit are you when you're young? I'd, you know, you'd be riding my bike everywhere, playing footy, you know, going to gym every morning, just go, you know, go, go, go, go for a run all the time. And things I can't do now, you know, it's the folly of youth, you know, to appreciate it when you've got it and, uh, and you miss it when it's gone. Until it's gone. That's right. What was your 21st birthday celebration like having both of us having a camera? I suspect I'm going to hear some places that I remember and kind of shut her out. No disrespect. Yeah, I didn't. I'd been to plenty of 21sts of my friends of that era that, uh, you know, upstairs at Mooseheads and the private bin and Pandora's and, uh, I was at the Pacific club in Civic and, uh, you know, those kind of clubs. But my 21st, unfortunately, fell during exams. So I didn't have a big 21st. We just had a lot of family and friends from Queimian and Interstate came for, I took it out of midweek. It was like a Thursday night and it was pretty subdued. So I didn't actually have a really big one. I made up for it with big 25ths and 40ths and 50ths and that kind of thing. But my 21st, sad to report was pretty quiet. My father, who's Lapfin. Um, did give me a Latvian ring, which is a ring that they give. Um, the males, male Latvians when they turned 21. So, um, that was the highlight. And we're going to talk a bit about that later. Cause dad's story in his own right. And dad's family story is something when I did some research about your way. Oh, hang on. This is really interesting growing up in Canberra. So we've got 80. So hang on you're 21. So it's late eighties, mid late eighties. Good timing, Canberra. It hadn't- Good time to be a laughing. Well, indeed. Um, hadn't seen a tram yet. What would, what did you want to go out and do? Sorry, that's a bit of a Canberra joke. Um- I get it. Yeah, you do. Just for people who don't understand that the main, what's called the main road, North One Avenue. North One Avenue. As opposed to having taken all those lovely yellow trees down. So, um, changed a lot by suspects since you and I were there. What did you want to go? What was life like living in Lyon? Great. Great. You know, big backyard, lots of, you know, cricket and footy fields and riding my bike everywhere. And I went to line of mine line and primary. So I went to local local schools and then local universities. So, you know, life in Canberra, at least for us, middle, middle class was the canteen manager risks at Lyon and primary. dad was an insurance salesman. Um, so it was pretty, I wouldn't say we were well off at all, but we were kind of middle-class, um, but I always, I always wanted to be a journalist, always. Sorry. Yeah. But I think it was the next question. Yeah. I always wanted to be, um, yeah. Or something like something in writing or voice or something like that. And then, but then radio was the big, I wanted to be, I wanted to work in radio. Um, and then, but strangely my career took me to more towards television before I came back to radio. Uh, but my big first love was radio. Dad listened to a lot of music and there were always LPs spread out and you'd have parties and there'd be ashtrays full of, full of ash and, uh, and all these LP records, um, or dad would be, I'd get up in the morning and dad would be smoking and painting something or putting wallpaper up, listening to hot August night or, you know, Kingston Trio is big into. kind of folk or Glen Campbell or the best of the monkeys, that kind of, uh, or some early rock and roll with Elvis and the Eberly brothers. So, so great, great family to live, to grow up in. And, um, and that through that love of music and we're always listening to radio, but I always used to listen to the news and sport, obviously I'd listen to, because back in those days, it's hard for people to imagine a time before every game being shown on, on Fox or sky. Uh, back then there was the ABC had the Saturday game. Then the one at the other seven or 10 had the big game, which was edited highlights of whatever the Sunday game was in Sydney and the rest of it, you listen to on radio and then listening to that, I was inspired and thought, well, I wonder if I want to work in radio one day. And I guess I did, but it just took me a while to get there. So we got a degree in history and sociology from the ANU. And then you went to the University of Canberra and did a post-grad degree in professional broadcasting. So was that the plan? Yeah, I went back to uni. I'd finished my ANU degree. And I went and worked in the Whitsundays on South Mull Island, which actually was, it wasn't as much fun as it sounds. Beautiful island, beautiful place. But oh my gosh, it was hard work. And I'd actually met a girl there and followed her to Sydney and she dumped me on the first day I got there, which wasn't my plan. But while I was there, I did a broadcasting course at the Max Rowley Media Academy. And so I did that and I do that. I think it was a Tuesday night while I was doing that. I was working at a place called City Extra at Circular Key. Um, which is kind of like a, they wear new shirts with newspapers on them. And, um, uh, so that when that was, and that was, I was doing overnights and that they made it tough. Um, but after I'd finished the Max Roelly course, I got in my Kingswood and I drove and visited every radio station in ACT, New South Wales and South Australia. And nobody gave me a job. I had my little, um, cassette tape in those days. dozens of them that I would take and I'd ring them two days ahead and say, look, I'm, I'm, you know, coming to Dubbo in, you know, in two days. Uh, is it okay if I meet you just for five minutes, you know? So, um, I'd meet these kind of older back in those days, cause radio was still a real big thing in country and, you know, country stations and I had, uh, jeans and a shirt and a tie and they would either say, Oh, the fact that you've got jeans on means you don't take this seriously. Or they would say the fact you've got a tie on means, you know, you're too serious for us. So I couldn't win. I'm like, you know, so no one gave me a job. I remember driving to broken Hill and the guy forgot my broken Hill is like Mars. It's an, it's broken. It was a film Mad Max and they, I got there and he'd forgotten that he was meeting me. It was all playing golf and yeah. And so that was heartbreaking. So as a result of that, I started doing voice, voice course in Canberra. And at one stage I was the New South Wales, Voices Steadford speech champion. And because we enter all these competitions. So through that, the woman that was doing my voice training said, why don't you go to uni like you. So I did post-grad at University of Canberra, which great, great uni, great friends. And then from that, and this is the interesting story how I broke into media. I, at the conclusion of my post-grad at the University of Canberra, I contacted Capital Television, or 10 Capital, and because CDC was the, you know, when I was growing up, CTC, Canberra only had CDC and ABC. So, Capital was quite prestigious, big newsroom, and I reached out to the news director whose name I can't remember, who knocked me back. And I just wanted to do work experience. No. So I rang him and said, look, I want to work in news, but how do I know if this is what I'm meant to be doing if you, if you don't give me the opportunity to say, and he said, that's a fair argument. All right. So I did work experience there and in news. And then while I was there, I was, I was playing rugby league and I went. tackle a guy and he swung around with his elbow and he knocked this cheekbone into my eye, sliced the corner of my eye. So I had all this, they did all the operations up here. At one point they were going to remove my eye. But as a result of this, I wrote a letter to Capital Television thanking them. Thank you very much for the opportunity. But you know, my face is busted. And so then they rang and said, oh, we didn't know you were into sport. We've got a job going in sport. Do you want the job? And that's how I broke into, into television because of literally a lucky break and never looked back. Yeah. Well, it's unintended. Two puns in one sentence. Michael Rollen rang. He wants his material back. No, that's great. That's freak. So did you want to go into news news or did you want to be a hard news guy on CTC? Yeah, I want to be a news guy. And, and I remember a teacher at Lyman primary saying to the class, what journalists do and what. Um, like a foreign correspondent would do. And I remember sitting there, distinctly thinking, there's no way. But me and line them, whatever, we have a job like that. That's like a serious job that. So, and, and I remember thinking as a kid, how am I going to get from here to. Yep. To there. Um, so I'd, I'd worked in sport at capital and my first day, which was a Saturday, my mom bought me a new suit. I bought a tie and I wore it in not knowing that most newsrooms, you don't wear a suit on the weekends. You just wear this. And so the newsroom laughed at me like, Hey, look at this idiot. Dressed up like a pelican. And I remember standing there kind of this humiliated, okay, I get it. This is how it's going to be. You know, all right. You're not my friends. You know, this is, I'm just going to be working with you guys. And I made lots of friends here, but that was my first day in television was them. Taking the piss out of me. Wow. But I had like great experience at Capital. We don't have egos in TV at all. No, not at all. But I learned my early lesson at Capital and they were very patient. And Peter Chapman, who was my boss, was absolutely fantastic. And he gave me some great opportunities and I got to work. And back then, there was a fully functioning one hour news on the newsroom was awesome. And Dan Craig, who was the political reporter then, he was having a cigarette back. And yet he's like, he's parliament lanyard around because they'd always be sitting out back. I think I'd started it. You couldn't smoke indoors, but you could smoke. And there were still typewriters at work. And, and he said, how you finding it? And I said, ah, it's really good. You know, he goes, and he said, yeah, one day you'll move on from here. And at the point, I could tell you how much I was on $17,500 a year. And I would have paid them. And I never thought I'd leave capital television. And he said, you know what? By the end of your career. I reckon you're going to work at about a dozen places." And he was right. At the time I thought, why would I ever leave this job? I love this job. And probably a bit like him, most people in media, their careers, you have to go where the work is and as long as you keep working. Because the vicissitudes of life will take you as it happened to Capital when finally they, you know, there was aggregation had come in and Southern Cross and they'd say They brought in Prime and Wynn. So it was like, like effectively every other capital city. They had suddenly all these, had three commercials and the ABC and SBS. And the Southern Cross, we knew it was happening. They were having discussions about, you know, redundancies and, you know, what can we do? Cause then they got rid of the weekend news they were just going to take from Sydney. So they sacked half the newsroom and this is how they did it. And you would never do this these days. You wouldn't get away with it. I think I'd been playing golf and got called in and they got us all in an air suite and they literally, I just went, yeah, it's you and you and you. And that was how we all found out, like in front of everyone, it wasn't like you were taken and we were like, wow. And that was finished. And so my $17,000, $500. Thanks very much for your service. Yeah, that was, that was it. And, and I'm pretty sure the ones that survived thought, oh, this is great. We survived, but then eventually, yeah, you know, capital doesn't exist anymore. And media is a tough game like that. And it was hard. It's been hard convincing my, um, my in-laws and my parents that this is media, it's not me, it's them. They're breaking up with me, but it's, it's there. It's just the way that, cause they're the accountants own media and they'll just, you're just a dot on their spreadsheet and they'll go, okay, really I get rid of it. And I was the youngest. So they would have gone, we'll get rid of the youngest and the oldest and a couple in between. And that, that was the sad way. Man, media still runs like that, but although they don't. say to people, it's you and you, these things, you take them into a room and have a chat and help them through it. But the outcome is still the same. It's a very brutal, brutal industry, I guess, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, it's, it's horrendous. And some of the funds gone out of, because it is accountants sitting around. And, you know, my theory is the people in the accounts department, there is no way that there's someone sitting in the accounts department with all my experience, who isn't paid well. They would say, I'm the senior accountant and I should be paid this. But unfortunately, in an industry that is a bit creative and satiric about what the role do, the accountant would say, well, it doesn't matter crazy experience, we'll just get someone else to do that job. As long as the job's being done, what does it matter? So they will easily, and this is what makes it tough. When I remember when I was at Sky News, a guy called Ian Cook, who was a legend. He'd been the news director at Channel 9 and he'd set up Sky News in England and he'd been news director at 7. He was an industry legend. But Ian, who's now sadly gone, a very, very good man. He had a second wife, so he had to keep working to pay the bills and the kids and whatever. So when he walked into Sky News, I remember one of the producers saying, wow, Ian Cook, survivor. And if you're... past 50, I could describe myself as a survivor. You end up becoming a survivor because it's such a tough industry that it is really dog eat dog and it's hard to explain. Certainly it's very hard. It was hard to explain to my in-laws how tough it was and just the daily grind of hanging onto your job and, and, and, and unfortunately, um, I was saying to a young bloke who left, um, MediaWorks today, I think where I work at the moment, he went into television and because MediaWorks where I work now, it's the most beautiful culture and people are fantastic. And he was going to television and I'd say, now be careful because when you're in television newsroom, you're not only competing with Channel 7 or Channel 9, you're competing with other people in the newsroom as well. So effectively, you're nervous all the time. Like I was reading an article on Barbara Walters that you couldn't say to dinner party to Barbara Walters, I've got, I tell you, I never had a lava lined up. for an exclusive next week because Barbara Walters and that's actually happened rang then rang up Martina Navarro-Lover and said, give it to me. Give me the exclusive. This is someone she worked with and it was a friend. So it's the kind of industry where you just got to cut your own swath and you'll have the good guys will figure themselves out. And I've made lots of friends in my career, but at the same time, super competitive and stressful and everyone has. You've got to pay tribute to people that can spend like the, um, the in cooks of this world that had long careers like that. And, and cookie was, I learned one wonderful thing from cookie. He used to get cranky at you. And then you change it, right? Cause you'd done something. I remember putting like a cricket score and having an argument on a cricket graphic with him over how many, how many balls you put up, how many batsmen on, you know, how much statistics do you need to have on the score when it comes up? Oh, on the super On the super, right? Yeah. So he, um, yeah, he wanted three, three batsmen, three bowlers. And I, and I, then I started the argument. I don't know. It's only up for a second. I don't know how much info. And then he was so I could see he's angry. No, but I'll change it for you. Cookie. No worries. I'll change it. And then a lot of bosses I've worked with will hold that against you. So somewhere two months later, they'll say, Oh, I like the time you put a three graphic and use it as some kind of a cookie. Wouldn't do that. If he, if he had a go at you gone. And it was, it was a true tribute to him and a test. Cause that doesn't happen very often. Totally professional that he knew when he was at work, he was at work. And then I had, you know, I used to have lunches and there was never a time that I didn't sit with cooking and think how lucky I was to be sitting with this guy. Well, the young he's coming through, didn't know who he was, but he was legend, but that was one of the things I learned from him was just forget about it, move on. Just let it pay. Um, The, the, the cholera question to that is how do you keep us and how do you keep a sense of self? Um, you know, I've never met in person. This is the first time we've had a chat, but from the sense of watching you on sky, for example, and then, you know, you work on the ABC over the years here, I've always got the impression from you that, you know, you're a good, in inverted commas, a good bloke. And it's been interesting having a chat to you about often about similar experiences in Canberra, different times and people that we both know throughout the different war, uh, broader media world. How do you keep a sense of your own self in that kind of front line on stereo, it's kind of environment. Yeah. It's, um, I think initially I was shocked by the industry. Right. Um, and if you watch like a movie, like network, if you've ever seen network, uh, great film, seventies classic, um, and it's that American network style and everybody's at each other's strokes that you think, oh, that's only in the movies, but it's not because it's a super creative. If I had to drive, if I had to drive around and couldn't get a job. That's how, you know, how competitive. And I know when I was at the ABC, people would apply, if you advertise the job, you would get hundreds of people apply for an, an commentary job for, for, uh, for Melbourne or, you know, cause wow, those jobs just don't come up at the, at the ABC. Um, but one thing I did do is the, everyone who we interviewed, and even some we didn't interview, I would ring them and I'd have a chat with them about why they didn't get the job. And even there was some kids that would, would. I thought had potential. I would just ring them out of the blue. Oh, good on you. And we'd certainly because, and I know going through this that, uh, I've applied for jobs, my wife, certainly. But these days people don't get back to you. They just don't, even if you've had an interview, they don't get back. And it becomes a big bug bearer of mine. That why, because you've got to, but if you interview someone, I don't understand why you wouldn't, why you wouldn't ring them. Um, so, um, what was the question again? No, no, no. My question is how do you keep us, no, no, no. Oh yes. How do you keep a sense of self? Because you're a guy from, you know, middle class, without being root, middle class, Canberra, you've gone down the road to ANU. I mean, it's a quick, and I'm, we both lived in Canberra, so I'm not having to go at Canberra, it is the quintessential boyfriend Queen, going to line them high, you know, Dixon college, wherever, Eddie, Darren Marlin, doesn't really matter. Um, you've gone away and you've, I love the fact, you know, you went up north and you know, like it's. Day one in Sydney, welcome to Heartbreak High kind of thing. How do you keep, how have you kept a sense of self over these years? Cause you've had some really tough jobs. Yeah. A lot of, um, the hardest thing is because I'm considered a good bloke. When I've been manager or boss of people, right. There are times when you, you're still the good bloke, but you've got to make tough decisions. And the minute that you sit someone down and you've got to go, mate, I didn't like what you thought, but I thought you were a good bloke. Like it becomes a. a reaction to them where, oh, and it's like they feel disappointed in me that I'm not, mate, you're right. Just, you know, so I think that that's been the hardest battle. And I think that, you know, experience does count. So I think now I would make, I would be a better manager now than when I was younger. Unfortunately, the industry now is set that they would rather find a more cost-effective 30-year-old that they think, well, we'll just, he'll just learn on the job a bit of mileage under the belt and has the experience. But I've never, I remember the first day I started Channel 9 after I'd got flicked from the capital and then someone had suggested me. And then the classic story is with Paul Fenn, who was the news director there. I was hung over from our farewell do. And I can remember my sister and I was, I crashed into my parents face. My sister came in and said, oh, there's a Paul Fenn. It was... I mean, nine o'clock, it's a Paul Finn from channel nine on the phone. And so I pick him up and he's like, Oh, I think he actually said, Oh, that'd be crook. What's going on? Bit few drinks. And I said, Oh, we had, Oh, good on you, mate. And then he said, look, listen, someone's tipped you in and, uh, we've got a job going on the today show in the today show news. Um, and this, and this was the interview. Do you like footy? Yeah. Yeah. Which one? I said, Oh, leg in union. Good. What do you play? I said, I play union. You want to play for Manly? Yep. See you Monday. That was the job interview at Channel 9, which at that point was Channel 9, was number one. Kerry Packer and then- The whole thing. Yeah, I loaded up the Kingswood, started work on the Monday and I was sitting with, and I remember I'm in the newsroom and Tracy Grimshaw had done the Daybreak Show, lovely Tracy, who's recently retired. And then all the Today Show people flowed in, who I was, Steve Liebman and- Ian Ross, who was the main news reader then, Roscoe sat right there in front of me. Ian Ross. And then the first thing he said, he introduced himself. He said, do you play tennis? I said, yeah, I love tennis. Oh, OK. Well, we have a hit on Tuesday. Do you want to come have a hit with us? And there was Peter Overton and like all these people played tennis. And he was so friendly and such that he's now dead for old Roscoe. But just the nicest, they were actually quite welcoming. Right. And so you do. You'd work on the Today show and a great, great young crew. The hours were horrendous. I'd start work at 11 PM and you do that. And, but great crew and then every couple of weeks you'd work on the 6 PM news, which was terrifying. Right. Like you'd walk through the gates thinking what's going to happen. Cause there'd be four producers or executive producers who'd sit around and they would just pick apart your work. Just, you probably have to write two things during the day, but they would and they would pick it apart out loud. And I, so I used to print off scripts and take them home just to try and stay still. How are these people, how are they writing? So I could mimic their style and improve my writing. It was terrifying, really scary. But that was when Brian Henderson was, was reading the news, the classic story with Michael Usher, who's now, uh, Channel seven. Yeah. And he's doing six PM on and like news on seven. My show was great. And back then he was one of the boys. He was one of, you know, hang out with us and, um, Brian Henderson walked up to Michael Usher one day and said, this was after the news, right? Amateur amateur amateur. And he's looking at me figures out, Oh, because Michael Usher had said amateur on air and Hendo came out to amateur and said, and that's the way, but it sounded like he was calling him an amateur and then saying you wouldn't, if Hendo was reading the news, you wouldn't go anywhere. And he's like where, cause he was just didn't want any distractions. So everyone had to sit there quietly while at 6 PM news. would go to where and then every couple of weeks you have to write news breaks for Hindo. He didn't like computers so someone would have to type it out and you'd have to take it in and he had a butcher's pen and he would go through it and never really ask me who I was or where I was going. I was just doing the news breaks for him and then you'd work on Nightline with Jim Whaley and then because then I ended up working with Jim at Sky News when he went to Sky and we became really friendly. Um, and Jim was great bloke, but back then he was Jim Wiley to work at channel nine back then. With Jim Wiley. Kerry Packer, my only encounter with Kerry Packer, the world cup in was a 95 and 96, the one that Sri Lanka won the cricket world cup. I was doing the overnight stories for it. Right. And on the today show news, you'd have to keep everything really tight. And I'd written this package. It was like, like a minute, And then, uh, I got a call. So that was maybe the first run went out six and then at six 30, I get a call in the edit suite from Kerry Packer saying, what you miss this and you miss that incident and there was a woman in a bikini on the, you should have put a shot in of her and I said, okay, so then I go back to the DP and I said, I've got to run my package longer because you can't. He's I said, Kerry Packer. And so he goes, yeah, you can. So we ran this longer package that Kerry Packer had wanted. So. That's like a senior, how's that? That would have been terrifying. It was. Did you, what was the reaction? You picked up the phone and it's, Kerry Packer, did you get your, oh, like I want you to use the language. Yeah. Yeah. That was the, but I never, I thought one night I'd bump into him because we used to have drinks on a Friday night up at the classic bar room that they had upstairs, I think it was built during the, when Packer had first sold it, I the bond years that they built this thing. So on a Friday night, and I once went up there, I hadn't worked on the Friday and I was living across the road with the deputy chief of staff. And so he rang and said, come up, come up. I didn't even get my foot in the door and Paul Finn goes, what the F are you doing? You didn't work today, piss off. And I just went, okay. And just walked back. You had to work on the Friday to drink on the Friday. Different era. to drink it. What does life look now? Oh, a completely different way out. I mean, that is like almost like not being rude. That's, there's a lot of history in some of those stories. What does life look now? You're in New Zealand and again, thank you for taking the time out of one of you are not getting up at four o'clock mornings to have a check to me. You've alluded to your work. Most people would understand radio TV, but not everyone will understand Today FM. They'll think of Today FM and go... Whatever. Aussie Today FM. Yeah, it's not a great name. Yeah, but there's Today FM in New Zealand. Different format. It's a talkback news station. It's a news station that's been around for a year. We've got our anniversary coming up this week for the start of it. And I have to say it's the best culture I've ever worked for. Really good people. My boss, a guy called Gary Denver, lovely, very, you know, a quiet confidence about him. And it's a... It's a great station to work for. The fact that it's called Today FM, a lot of Aussies that I speak to go, Oh, are you working for, but it's a different, totally different brand. And then the company is called MediaWorks. So that's a big barn with all the different, they're not stations anymore. They're brands. And so they all just, there's a studio there and the next one, the studio and everything's done digitally. And I mean, it's exciting to get in early in the morning when all the breakfast teams are getting in and they're all kind of big personalities. And They see us in the newsroom as the adults. We're definitely the adults in the room. And, you know, and the people that the, um, uh, Grace, who's the morning sub editor, she's young and she's so good at what she does. And Haley who does the afternoons, this is great. And it's mainly, it would never have been like this. And we joke about this, Gary and I, who are kind of plus fifties in the, in the newsroom, they're the rest of the young women. And we always say that this wouldn't have happened when I started in, in media. There's no way that it would have been about that. that many women working there. Um, so it just shows we have in terms of diversity and how everything's moved on and, um, uh, which is, which is a good thing because they're all really talented and good people, which is important. I love the fact that New Zealand has so many brand stations. I loved living over there. Oh, wow. Yeah. It's awesome. Like there is whatever you're mind. Yeah. Whatever you're into, there's a station for it. And I think it's different because in Australia, you've got to buy a license and, and in New Zealand, it's a bit more open for the different nations, you know, kind of 70s rock album station. My wife listens to the doof doof channel. So, right. So hang on, you're a Howracke man and she's a, what's it called? The rock, I don't know. George. She's into George. George, George FM. Yes. George FM loves it. Yeah. So she owns, she owns the, the air in the car. So when we get in the car, it's only George, which drives me crazy. But then my rock, my Led Zeppelin. Rolling stone sensibilities drive her crazy. So great. Compromise is always a good thing. Has your work. Yes. Let's just go back to you starting out at Triple S then you get your big break on capital. I will throw some of the old promos from capital TV from, from the late eighties, early nineties in cause they were some classics. Some of the, the old promos from back then are pretty cool. But. Has your career been as you'd hoped so far? Cause you've worked in some real, and we'll come to this. You've worked in some really interesting roles. Now people in Australia will know Craig from his time on Sky News. That's my bad impersonation of you, but I did, you know, you had that very senatorial, Jim Whaley-esque approach and doing the sport on, on Sky, but you've worked in some really interesting jobs, both in Australia and overseas. So has your career been what you thought it would be? I always, um, Because I wrote it down before, you know, like everyone I've worked for, if I went back in time and sat down with myself when I was 21 and said, this is it, this is, this is your, I would have gone, oh my God, how good is that? You know, from let's say the early days, SSS to then Capital, then Nine, I worked at B.Sky B in London in the, in the sport department. And we won a BAFTA when I was there for working in the rugby department. And how can I just traveling around doing rugby? in Britain and Europe. That would have been horrible. Single Aussie, yeah, terrible. Then came back, worked for SBS and got to work with Les Money, Murray, and then Johnny Warren who, Johnny Warren came to London Primary when I was in first grade. All I saw was the top of his head and I still remember shaking. And then I used to work with him and I used to tell him, I told him a story. He loved that story that he used to call me boss. Hey boss, how are you? The breadth of amazing people that Sky News had at the time when it started, it's moved a little bit different now, but back then, when it had these legends of the industries to be working, it wasn't, every day I didn't look around and think how lucky I was to be working alongside them. And then at the ABC, also working with these incredible broadcasters that I'd grown up with. Yeah. Um, then I came here for a job on the racing board, but unfortunately, the week before I started, the CEO who hired me quit. So it was this kind of people, when I started people like, No, you won't, you won't be here in a year. It was just, it was stressful, but we, but we love New Zealand so much. We'd stayed. And then I went to Al Jazeera, which, which was awesome experience to be at Doha and, you know, and then, then back to New Sub Media Works, then at Sky Sport when they used to have their Sky Sport news channel, which was a great experience, but unfortunately COVID, then they got rid of it and then to Media Works. So I would take that career that like, as the 21 year old dreamer, I would have taken that career, but it looks like I'd planned it. When you look at it, it looks like, oh yes, he planned all this. And I don't think many people in media plan their careers. They just, they just slogging away, trying to stay in the game, hoping that everyone needs a champion. Everyone needs, so everyone that I've opened doors for, if you, if you look at, um, when I was at Sky News alone, James Bracey, Yvonne Sampson, Mel McLaughlin, Roz Kelly, Sam Squires, Megan Barnard, Scott Jackson, who's still there. Luke Doherty is a Fox, Elise DiBell who's now the Deputy News Chief at Sky News, Chris Rowe. There were a lot of people that came through there that I hired. Everyone needs a champion. Jim Patterson was an early champion of mine. You need somebody who knocks down a door for you. If you don't have that person, which is why you should thank that person, because nobody's going to do it for you in life or in media. I've been lucky enough to work with and where I'm sitting here on the other side of the wall is memorabilia and things that I've had signed by famous people. And, you know, I've been really lucky with who I've met. But it's hard. It's hard graft and you can't make it through media without making a few enemies the way through unintentionally often. But I'll look back on it and I'll be thankful that I actually had a career like this because it could have been like, I could have still been driving trucks for Swains. And And I was lucky, my 50th mate from uni gave a speech and said that I'm the only person that he knows who did what he wanted to do. Like I wanted to be a journalist and I wanted to work in media and I did. And I knew that from when I was a little boy. It was always what I wanted to do. That is brilliant. I love, I, I, what I love is the, um, the complete commitment you had to getting in your Kingswood and driving all around New South Wales. Uh, I could almost, you know, imagine with the window, you know, wound down and, uh, you know, can of Coke or whatever, and you're like, right onto Broken Hill and the plate noodles. And yeah, sleeping in the car and in caravan parks and, uh, but, you know, and I, I, I. I was desperate to make it, but I just couldn't get the break. I couldn't get the break. But then when I did, I probably appreciated it more than most people. And I don't think people that I gave jobs to that did it much easier than I did, I hope they appreciate that I opened the door for them. What were some of your leadership? You've worked in some high profile roles and we've talked a little bit about those, but what are some of the, and you've worked with some very high profile leaders in their own right from carrying back all the way through. What are some of your leadership observations that you've taken away from your career so far in terms of the good, the bad and the ugly, well, good, bad and indifferent leadership styles that you've seen? I always tell young people coming through, if you want to be a manager or a leader, you've really got to want to do it because it's hard. And you're trying to manage the individual and the group. So you, you, you'll have a, a, a target there in mind for the whole group, but particularly in media, the individual really is only caring about themselves. They don't care about the group. And I, you know, I've had many people turn out, I didn't care about the rest of them. Take care of me. So I think that's the hardest thing if you're a leader is, is finding a line between that, trying to satisfy and also satisfy yourself. Every job that I've worked in, I think I've grown as a leader and as a person through the attrition, through the really hard stuff. And you really only, do only learn from your mistakes. So it's kind of make them, make them fast. And then I'd say that to young people who join, I said, go for it, make mistakes, don't make big ones, but don't do it again. Just learn as you go. And that's a bit like anything else in life. And I think, Um, the best leaders that I've, that I've worked on, uh, some fantastic from the, you know, the layers Murray's, there was a, there was a guy called Jeremy Miller, who was the, who was my boss, who was head of metropolitan radio at the ABC. I could wander off to his office. He would stop what he was doing and he would have a chat with me about, and he was so calm and it was just such a nice, really talented manager. So, and cause dealing with, at the ABC, some really big egos, he could explain and he was dealing with bigger egos than, than I had to. And he was so calm with it. And even the Ian Cooks where, make a decision, it could be cranky at some, but move on. The worst bosses I've had were those fire and brimstone explode out of their office or throw chairs at you and this kind of like, and that's how it was back then. But thankfully it's a bit different now. A bit like Gary, my current boss. The most effective bosses I've worked under would be. A bit like being at war. You actually, you don't want a blunderbuss MacArthur or Patton. The guy you want is the guy who goes, right, here's the plan. And you, and they're very clear with the plan and here is who we're going to get to. And I'm sorry if sometimes I'm going to make a decision you're not going to like, but we're trying to get, get to here. And that has to do these days with culture is important. You're not just trying to get ratings or whatever. You really have to balance the culture as well. And that's why the manager or the leader is so important. Sometimes they get it wrong and they'll give people this is unfortunately in media, they'll give people who are a bit too young a job before they're ready for it. You need a bit of mileage. And that's the tough, that's the toughest balance these days is culture and diversity. And you need people who are quite, you know, have a broader understanding than the kind of managers I had when I first started. And the media has moved on. I just hope that they don't gut too many media places that will stop good young people coming through, quitting the industry because they think there's not enough money in it or there's not enough opportunities for creativity. And that's the most difficult thing for managers these days is satisfying millennials and generation Z to, in my day, we knew we had to serve our time. Now they want to have their own shows within a week and they can, they can get it on TikTok and then they start in a job and they think, well, why haven't I got that? Why haven't I got that here? Different industry, different industry. But I think as a leader, you only learn through every job because you get things wrong and you get a lot right. And then you can be satisfied with that, but you never, you never, nobody does it a hundred percent job. And I don't know. I know what a bad leader looks like, but what a good leader looks like. I, the good leader is somebody who doesn't think they're the best leader. Ironically, because they're always trying to improve. And I used to read. When I was the ABC, every time I'd fly somewhere, I'd go to the bookstore and buy a book on leadership and all those leadership books, it's common sense. But unless you're in the trenches, you won't know what leadership looks like or what adversity looks like until you're there. You can read a thousand books and I have. And I, you know, the best ones tell it like it is, the worst ones say, you know, yeah, but show some respect to some people. Yeah, you do all that stuff. And sometimes it doesn't work unless you're sitting there. That's right. And they're angry about something and they want something from you. You don't know unless you do it. The book, the books, the YouTube stuff. Yeah. It's clever, but unless you're doing it, you won't know. Fair call. I totally agree. Yeah. That's, that's as I look around, just to my right, there's a whole bunch of books and you go, okay, so yeah, they're not there when you're in the middle of it going, okay, I've got to deal with this person. So that's a really good point. Uh, in your time at the ABC here in Australia, you had to handle, and I don't want to go into the specifics because that's, there's some of those things of, you know, that are long, long history, but you had to handle some, some challenging media issues that focused on your own team. So without wanting to go into those, um, which are a matter of record, um, and, and, and some historic, um, time passed, uh, because it was a while ago. How did you handle some of those matters at the time? I mean, you're the, you know, you're the head of ABC Greenstone, which is a very, very important part of, you know, Australian culture and Australian sporting life. Um, what leadership go-to's did you have to go? I mean, you had to rely on yourself. You've got people at Jeremy Miller around you. Yeah. Yeah. He was kind of some of those challenges. I remember when I started bumping into Peter Fitzsimon's, the author, former Wallaby columnist, and he's up here and I'm down here and he put his arms around me and he said, you. Yep. Have the most historically significant job in Australian sport. Take care of it. Because they've been, they were like popes. Like they've been like three, someone had to die and then someone took over his head of sport and I was the first outsider that they hired to come in. And, um, and it was mainly introducing, uh, you know, the social media and, and digital and trying to, and there were a lot of older broadcasters who, who didn't want to get on board the social media train and Twitter and Facebook and Instagram. And that was very hard. And at the same time, these were people that I grew up admiring and loving when I was listening to. And every decision I'd make, somebody liked it and somebody didn't like it. And then, you know, Peter Robux, I'd never had to deal with someone dying on the job. And, you know, people listening to this can do a Google search on Peter Robux and see what happened. you know, a couple of, it was, it was hard because if you got to ring 50 people and then I went into work and then there were people that I'd missed who fell through the cracks who just weren't in when I went in and I'd ring them and I couldn't get through to them that, you know, that made it hard. And then the ramifications from that, I think I got it 98% right, but it was just a couple of people I couldn't get to that. And that was, that was, that was hard, particularly with people. But my focus was on like Jim Maxwell or Drew Moorford, Jeff Lawson, who were over there. And, uh, making sure that they were okay. Um, but you know, it's because Peter would look for context for folks. Peter died in it in South Africa. There was a test series that you folk were covering. The ABC was covering Australia, South Africa test. Peter's died. You're in Sydney. He they're in South Africa. Wow. Challenge, challenge, challenge. And you can't, some people who didn't know him. Well, morning. worse than those who are best friends with him. So I didn't quite understand that, you know, and I'm not a psychologist or a counselor. So I was simply trying to manage a situation that and, and again, the individual, I'm trying to look after the group, but the, I'm trying at the same time, take care of the individual. That was tough. And then the second incident was the, you know, Warren Ryan, David Morrow things. And yeah, that was hard because the ABC has very very strong and powerful indigenous board that I was having to answer to and trying to defend my department. But at the same time, you can't defend racism. And I was never ever going to try and find an excuse for doing that. And that's just the way it is. And that was really stressful because people were ringing me at work or sending lovely handwritten cursive in a not very nice way that, uh, what a horrible piece of work I was and, um, that they, you know, they were legends. What would I know? So this is what makes it hard with you. As I always say, if you want to be manager, you really want to, got to want to do it. Um, and it was interesting to see with the department because a lot of people stood by me and a lot of people stood back to wait to see who was, who was going to win it. But again, wonderful support from ABC management, uh, really strong. people there. And yeah, also, while I was there, we did a lot of we did negotiations for AFL, for rugby, for rugby league, for cricket for the Olympics, like so I was having to negotiate with with outside businesses that own these rights. So that was an eye opener as well, because, you know, I was first point of contact for negotiating, and then you involve the rest of the ABC management. And we were protecting taxpayers money. And unfortunately, nearly, nearly the end of my time there, in cricket Australia and the AFL East kind of big sports were trying to squeeze as much money out of the ABC. They decided they just wanted to monetize their sports and the ABC was never going to have deep pockets. And, but they always imagined as the staff did, that there was a magic pot of gold under my desk that I was hiding from them that, uh, which didn't didn't exist, it didn't exist. And, um, you know, but, um, I didn't find that in Senate estimates. No, they. And I had to take that into mind. And again, you get back to the individual and the department, the individual didn't care about the Senate estimates and having to answer questions. And I'm not being flippant. No, because it was a real thing. And you've got to admire those ABC management because they cop it not only from internally, from Waterloo, but also from Murdoch's press who just hammer them all the time. And, you know, but to work for an institution like the ABC, what an eye-opener. And well, you've got to admire the really good managers there. because there's an art to it. And they put us on a lot of courses and they put us through. There was an interesting, we did a course on leadership and this is another thing that I'd learned. The one thing that I think I took out from working there was the word appreciate. And I would say this to any leader, there was a guy who was a former Mossack guy, Israeli guy, who came and gave a talk to the managers. And he dealt with kind of warring Middle Eastern states and trying to... getting to understand each other. And he said, if you could sit across the table from someone and say to them, I appreciate your situation. I appreciate how you went and spoke to these people and stopped that war. That's the most powerful word in the English language. So I would say to any manager, any leader, if you could say to, you might be able to pay them the money they want, but if you can say to them, I appreciate, really at the end of the week, it's a. surprisingly, the number of managers that don't do this. I really appreciate the hard work you put in this week. I really appreciate that you gave up your kids soccer game to come in at short notice. I really appreciate how hard you've been working. Not enough leaders do that. And I learned so much from that talk. And then the other one was, uh, he said, do you know the name of your cleaner? And I didn't. And I, I remember right. I said to him, Oh, what's your name? What are, what is that? And I wrote it on the thing. And so. Every night, because I'll be working back late, he would come in and I would say, Oh, how are you? And how are your kids? And, and it was just a little thing, but you could see it gave cause he was invisible to everyone else, but I had to have it pointed out to me. And this is where experience comes into it. So unless you have that experience, you won't learn those. So number one was, appreciate. And number two was, do you know the name of your cleaner? Well, I love that. One of the things I listened to a podcast a couple of weeks ago from, and it's interesting you're talking about that. It was a principal who I knew in Canberra, um, a guy called David Malford and his, his take on that, which is very similar to yours was his KPI for himself was knowing five things about all his staff and every kid in the school. So when he was at the rugby pitch with Craig Norrenberg's at, was it Bradford college back in the day? For example, I didn't go to Bradford, but wherever he would know that. Yep. Yep. So Dixon college, but he would know. who dad and mom were, who the siblings were, that you loved, you know, Malm and Inga. Da da da da da da. And that he could come and have a conversation with you as equally he could the deputy principal. And I thought, gee, and I went away and reflected upon that. And I've only been in my job now six months. Do I know? And I actually said to the team straight after that conversation, do we all know, and we work across the country, do we know five real things about each other? And they went, oh. Good point. point. So good point. It goes back to your point about making the taking the time to make the time. Yes. So no more about about them. It's the little things that people will appreciate. And they're not good. When I was the ABC, I would try and you try and ring around because they were all around Australia, it was hard to we do a fair bit of flying and trying trying to manage pay when they're in Perth or they're in in Walker or somewhere, something like that. And you would end up spending more time with squeaky wheels than the the quiet ones, but then try and remember, oh, oh boy, you know, I've got to ring up Bob this would make sure that I'm, you know, so that was the other challenge was it was a big team, big team to manage. But, um, but they was also passionate about their jobs. You couldn't take away their passion. And they also, they're passionate about their career. They're passionate about their jobs, passionate about their sports. Yeah. Um, so a lot of, a lot of the work was done for me in terms of professionalism and what they were doing, their prep was awesome. It was mainly about satisfying their needs and making sure that they were moving forward. Almost like having a bunch of four forwards or, you know, halfbacks, depending on your team. Yeah. Let's say, let's keep going. In 2016, after you'd moved to Auckland, and this is the joys of Google research, you're coded in the New Zealand Herald saying it not only lived up to expectations, it's been better than we expected. Often Jokey should be working for tourism New Zealand because his review of living here is so positive. The people are so nice. The country is so beautiful. Okay. So I laughed at that because as I've mentioned, and as I said to you, before we came onto the show, I lived in Melbourne for a couple of years, I still consider myself an already well-intended, you know, my nine-year-old has got a bedroom, not far away from where I am with full of Wellington hurricanes gear. And we'll not have the love of money support Melbourne rebels. Um, so no matter what I can do. So Gus. You know, you're not the only one who loves New Zealand. But my point is, how did you grapple with, so I loved that quote, because I just thought that is exactly what I said when I lived in New Zealand. It's a wonderful country. Uh, tough being an Australian sports fan when you're living over there sometimes, but how did you grapple with the family moving over? How's it been? What's it been like being an expat in New Zealand, which they speak the same language, but they kind of really don't. Yep. Haven't met many Aussies here. That's, that's the one thing I've noticed. And that article. think was, there was a couple I did, I did a cross with the today's show, the Australian today show when I first moved, it was about the influx of Aussies moving to New Zealand and I've hardly met any. But mainly then their interview was even before the interview started, I could hear them doing sheep meh in my ear. So I took it seriously and they didn't. So that I can still remember, I won't forgive them and they spelled my name wrong in the super. Having and having worked for the Today Show years before so this one anyway, Yeah, but it was a difficult start because I'd worked for the racing board and because the CEO had quit and the job had totally changed from being a creative job to effectively they were looking for an accountant and that wasn't me. So I knew the job wasn't for me. That was a bit stressful, but my son had to settle at school and we had to make new friends. We didn't know anyone. I knew one person, a guy called, yeah, I knew Debbie Spillane had mentioned a guy called long time. He's a media legend in New Zealand. He was the one guy I knew, so I'd had drinks with him. Then you start to meet people. A pretty easy country to settle into. They're very wary of Australians. They've all run into that Australian on probably in Europe, who's a bit noisy and fly to the Concords if you do some of your YouTube stuff, the way that they present Australians. Yeah, that's the experience that New Zealanders think. that there's loud Aussies in the corner, which I don't think I am. So mates are great friends. And we're lucky where we live in Cuyamaramu, which is a beautiful part of the world. We've got a house and a 10 minutes walk from the beach, which you'd never get anywhere else in Australia. You wouldn't be able to afford it in Australia. So, and the people, like when I first saw the racing board, if I had to sit people down and have a serious chat with them, they took it very well. They didn't like Aussies push back. Oh, what? They just would sit and go, okay, then I'll try better next time. And they would. So I would say, obviously there's a bit more pushback with altis in media than, than with Kiwis and they, they, a lot of them, and I've told a lot of the young ones go to Australia, go to Australia and when you're young and get a good go to Al Jazeera or try go to England. Um, because, cause a lot of them and I, because it's a young group, particularly in media works, they're all very, oh, wow, I just want to do well here and I'd say look. When the time comes, spread your wings. Yeah. New Zealand is a really particular with media. Like the, the, the media here is so sophisticated. And I think they sell themselves short that it's only a little old New Zealand, but it's as good as anywhere else in the world. And Ben, the talent here is, is unbelievable. And that's why a lot of them live. Um, yeah, but again, I haven't, the, the, they used to be when the first time when I was at media works, when it was made media works news hub, there was a guy who was in charge of the new newsroom there, who was Australian. And he never once asked me where I was from, which used to disappoint me. I'd bump into him and I knew where he was from because I did that, but he never said, and where are you from? And I was waiting for the, ah, okay. Canberra, Canberra Raiders kind of rumbies chat, but it never happened. No. Um, which probably says something else. So that gets back to that. You know, do you know the name of your cleaner? Um, so, uh, I think, yeah, New Zealand, there's not much difference when the media only, I think I've noticed is Aussie's a bit more Bolshe. when it comes to their, this is who I am, New Zealanders. So yeah, they're kind of, yeah, which doesn't mean that it's, the industry is any tougher because it's probably even more competitive here because it's not as big and everyone, everyone knows everyone. Um, but great talent. I've got to say it's as good as anywhere else in the world. The thing as an aside, the thing that strikes me as someone who does like to listen to stations in New Zealand and Australia, and even around the other parts of the English speaking world is, um, Australia doesn't have. two commercial talk stations, networks per se, as opposed to New Zealand and radio New Zealand. And the thing that I also remember from my time over there was the amount of, and I know you've talked a little bit about this, just you could, we talked a little bit about George before, but the amount, you know, you could pick, it was almost like pre Spotify, you know, I used to love Radio Hauraki or more FM when it was more local in Wellington or the Breeze, which I know is under your umbrella. And, you know, like, um, the amount of content that such a, without being rude, like the population of that size pops out, um, and quality content night after night, you know, news hub on, on three or which, you know, it's only just hasn't been around forever and then TV for example, great news services, it's good stuff. And it's quite seven nights a week popping out, you know, it's not like, Oh, well, we'll go to Sydney for the, for the, you know, like they have with James, for example, I'm not having to go to, not having to go to anyone, but, um, unless we want to have a long conversation over a long beer about aggregation, but that's another conversation for another day. But the thing that strikes me, and I guess that's my question to you is, um, what's your media consumption? Like, I mean, you're up at four o'clock. Are you able to switch off in the afternoons when you're home with the family or how does that work for you? Yeah, we, my wife and I do a lot of streaming in the evening of, um, prestige television. Uh, I listen to a lot of podcasts, a lot of audio books on the way to work. So it might take me. depending on traffic, half an hour. Used to take me, when I worked with the ABC, it would take me an hour or sometimes an hour and a half to drive in from the inner west where I was living into the city. So here, particularly at half past three in the morning when I'm driving to work, it's easier. So yeah, a lot of podcasts are great for catching up and getting some depth. So if we're gonna do a story on Trump, then, and whatever particular. incident that week, I said, you can, there is always a New York Times half hour podcast that'll give you some more background. So, yeah, cause when I get into work, you normally hit the ground running. You've got to bang straight into it. Yeah. Cause one of the other things, whenever, uh, just near the end of just cinders, um, when she was PM, they'd send me out a few times when she was in Auckland and I'd get up real close with the brand cause I wanted to get the branding shot with Jacinda, but the rest of the Kiwi media would all stand back. They would set up their microphones and be very respectful and stand back. But I would, I would get right in the face. So, and I would do the same with hipkins. Like you want to get right up front because that's how the Aussies do it. That's right. But I could feel them just burning a hole in the back of my head. Like, what are you doing? Um, and to be fair, she was very polite because they'd ask their questions and I'd go, you'd have a question in mind. And then she would say, I know you haven't had a question. What have you got? So she was very fair when it came to that. So, so yeah, I don't know if hipkins. same, I haven't had the opportunity to do anything with him yet, but she was certainly, she was very nice. I was working the day that the, was it the, was the president, prime minister of Finland? Oh yes. Was there and then somebody at the, had asked the question of whether they were, and I had the question after that. And thankfully my question was on soft power in small nations, and it was an actual proper question. So, and you can see the relief on Jacinda's face. She was like, finally someone's asking her. normal question. And so, um, yeah, that kind of get great experiences doing that kind of thing. When you're listening to TV or radio, are you able to turn off in terms of, are you, are you able to sit there and go, right? You know, there is in the super, you know, the graphic would have the graphics, you know, there was three dot points of the highest scoring batters in that, in that innings as opposed to two or are you Yeah, there's a lot of issues. Are you analyzing it all? Yeah, you do end up picking apart other news and if they, I saw a spelling mistake go up on CNN on their super. And that's so rare at CNN. We were all like, wow, look at that. Um, so yeah, you do pick apart. Cause we always thought in newsrooms, we're only doing the work for other stations to not pick us apart because of my wife would say stuff and go, well, I didn't say it. I'd say, look, there's a flash frame or. They got this wrong or my wife go, I didn't say it. Like you're really only doing it for your own thing, but you can't escape. You've got to watch the 6pm news. Um, because I, cause I got a bit quite early, so I've got to kind of watch that. Um, you know, I'm always listening to news bulletins on radio, our hours and the oppositions to try and, you know, we monitor all day when we're at work, what the, what the opposition are doing. Um, and we don't generally, we don't miss out on stories. So, um, you know, it's, and it's harder now because. newsrooms are smaller, you haven't got as many people to send out anymore, which is an outfall. I remember I requested a story with someone and they couldn't do it that day. They wanted to do it the next day. And I said, look, it was my one day off. And she was kind of accusing me of not, you know, like Watergate sleeping in the car. And it wasn't a story that warranted sleeping on my day off going to do it, but she didn't understand. She was like, well, you're a journalist, you know, you should follow through. new bar or something. I thought, you know, it's that kind of the assumptions. People have seen all those movies, all the presidents men where they're going, you know, how do you get crusading journalists anymore when there's no money to do that? You know, so it's a much smaller industry. It's much tougher. And, you know, it's harder now for young people to come through to have a career like that. That's why they've got to broaden and they've got to go overseas and spread their wings. That's a great segue into my next question, which is what's your advice to people who may think that their career should be linear or go to A to B to sports presenter? Don't think it exists anymore. I don't think it used to be, you could get a job, maybe Murdoch they do it these days, you can start off at a regional news limited newspaper. And if you stay within news limited, you can effectively, you could, well, unless you used to be able to become the CEO, but now they're out there rather hire a lawyer or an accountant to be CEO. rather than someone that's been in the trenches that understands the industry. So you end up just playing away. But, you know, in the end, as long as you keep working, you might have sometimes, like my career kind of guy, go there, down a little bit more, but up, you know, as long as you keep working, you're always going to pick something up from the job that you're in. And I can, so many times when, every time, like Fox would go through redundancies and presenters would come and have a cup of coffee with me looking for new work. They only wanted to be a presenter. Oh, no, I don't. Cause I'd say, Oh, get you some job, some work in news radio, for example. Oh, no, no, I want to be a, can't you get me on the 6pm news? I want to be the, the sport presenter in the 6pm. Yeah. I'm like, that's, I'm offering you a job and you're being picky when you've just been sacked from your job. So, and that happens more often than you can imagine that they, a particular kind of, it's the lure of being a presenter. So hang on. I can remember being at SPS, saying to work experience people, because I'd say, well, at the end of the week, what do you want to do? And they would just point into Les Murray's office and I want to do that. And I'd say, do you want to do what I do and start with nothing every day and build something every day and feel you've achieved every day? As you're going, I would, you know, if I was, I used to produce a show called Toyota World Sport at SPS and every day I'd go home, I'd completed something, I'd achieve something and I'd got it done and then start the next day. But most of them point to the corner office where Liz was because they wanted to present like Liz was. So my number one advice to people getting in, do not go the narrow presenting. If the presenting happens, that's great. And you can do both. Certainly when I was at Sky, I was presenting and I was producing and when I was on my own, it was horrific. And I'd hate to actually go back and see how much, if any mistakes slip through. And I probably was doing an exceptional job, just keeping my wits about me at the time. take any of my number one advice is and certainly do not sit in a job interview and say, when I say, what would you like to do with your career and say, I want to be a presenter. I used to hate that as well. So I remember having an interview with the ABC. I didn't get it for a cadetship at the ABC when I was a day new. Yep. And the manager of 702 back, not 702, 666 in Canberra, what do you want to do? And I said, I want, yeah. And I said to him, when he said, what do you want to do? I said, I want one day, I said, not now, but I want your job, not your job, but what you do, um, and he went, Oh, cause he, he rarely hit. He would hear people say, I want to be the main host or I want to be the, um, so even look, even if you're lying, just say, I really want to be a producer. I just want to do whatever it takes. Cause you've got to get your foot in the door, you know, and you don't want to read these days, you have to be multi-skilled. You just can't be a presenter. Um, the presenting happens then it's nice. We both have letters from the ABC saying, thank you very much for your application to be a cadet. I remember mine and it's probably, I've got them all. I didn't get in the car, but I wrote to every radio station and newspaper in Victoria at the age of 18 after I'd finished high school, offered to go to work experience. So this is probably my, my, um, you know, this podcast is probably my, although I got a cadetship music later with, with Fairfax, Sydney, and for unknown reasons at the time working in Canberra and politics decided not to take it and that was one of those. What did I do that moment for? But yeah, the, the passion that you must have and still have for the industry is, um, just because you're on tick tock one day, doesn't mean you're going to be on channel nine and Sydney or, you know, TV three, New Zealand next. So let's talk about you a little bit more and about your sporting models, because research is fantastic. And you learn a lot about people. Uh, where was that from? That was from. One of the profiles about you, which talked about your sporting idols, a soccer players, Pele and Johnny Warren, a little bit about Johnny Warren, uh, cricketers, Doug Walters and Greg Chapel, union legends, Markella and Cliff Morgan. And this is an interesting one. Your father, Eddie, for teaching you all about life's values and lesson that can be found in sports. So let's talk about dad because researching about you and sitting down on the laptop the other week and going right, you know, know a little bit about Craig from his time on TV. Then I came across this fascinating story about your dad and your family. So let's talk about dad and the lessons that he's imparted. And then we might have a little bit of a wander back to Eastern Europe, if that's okay. So tell us about Eddie. He, or dad was, I just get my phone right, dad immigrated to Australia from Latvia. He was actually born in, he was born in the snow. He, my grandparents, with dad's brother, Ziggy, they were fleeing the Russians. So they were in Latvia and Latvia was one of those countries that went from being independent to then the Germans came in and then the Russians came in. That was always like this arm wrestle. So they were escaping Latvia. They had to go Latvia then through Germany to get to this displaced persons camp. So my grandmother was nine months pregnant when she was doing it through the snow. They had to hide her in kind of wood piles sometimes when the Russian soldiers, because the Russian soldiers were just killing, they were animals, just killing and raping. And so my poor pregnant grandmother was hidden in the wood pile so they couldn't see her. And so she gave birth to my father in the snow, which is just a nervous for a child to be born on the ice. And so, which affects him now, because he didn't get, So my grandmother didn't have breast milk because she was starving. So dad didn't have milk when he was a baby. So it's only now he's kind of his spines disintegrating because he didn't have the calcium back there, but they, so they, they didn't write Australia on there. When they got there, I think they'd written like Canada or USA and Argentina or so, you know, Chile or something. And so it was Canada, USA and Chile, but the authorities, what did they do? Yeah. And so, and I think one of the uncles went to Chile and was never heard from again. Um, so which was kind of like, you know, it could have been us. Um, so they just ended up in Australia and he said, you can still, you can still remember coming through and, and it was done on the way they had fruit for the first time, like really fresh fruit. And, but then getting into, I think it was, was it Melbourne that they stopped in first and being abused, you know, go home, you're bogs, what are you doing here? And he, I was that kind of like, but And my dad said, he just remember angry people yelling at him. They couldn't speak English. And then, and then they settled in, near in a farm out, just outside of Quayman and Canberra and dad, first day of school, wearing one of those kind of leather, those leather Germanic, can you imagine? Yeah. Yeah. Leather house, I think. So just, you know, and having absolutely, you know, being bullied and, and then, but, you know, so, but they plugged away and then, you know, it was pretty brutal. upbringing, living on the farm. But I always think of my father that he's the kind of guy, he's a beautiful writer and he reads all the time and it's quite artistic. But back in those days, people didn't have the opportunities. He would have been a really good journalist. He would have been working in media. But he had a family to provide for and I think he left school very young. The teacher basically said, Eddie, his real name's Ulis, but Eddie, you might as well leave school. What are you doing here? Then? So he went and pumped gas when he, I think when he was 14 years old, um, you know, doing that kind of thing. So, but he, like, he inspires me, my father, because he's, he's just a good man. He never missed the game of rugby that I played. Didn't matter during the week. If he was out at the pub or whatever, or having dinner, trying to get some clients, he never missed any sporting, anything I did. Um, and so when I was growing up, I always, always appreciated that. And I, I always thought that, um, Yeah, he had given me this love of radio, of love of writing and a love of reading and everything. So, so everything that I've done, as I've said there, like he, I joke, he played rugby for the ACT when there were only 15 people in the ACT, but he, um, everything sport, everything that's come from him. So, so he's probably the biggest influence, you know, along with mom, cause probably mom had to look after me. Um, in terms of influential for career, I think, yeah, it was my dad. His piece about moving to Australia, which I found, was really lovely actually. He wrote very warmly and very lovingly actually. So I thought. And he always appraises he's true. And this is the point about immigrants is, you know, they love Australia because they want to live in Australia. Yeah. And particularly where they came from and having to kind of flee from both the Germans and the Russians. And they always appreciated Australia and what the Australians have given them and what's given. me and his grandparents. And so, you know, it's a feather in Australia's cap that all these people have come to this because it's a bit like New Zealand. They're immigrant nations. And that, you know, we're so lucky. We're probably at the point, 1% of history of how lucky we are. There's probably about 15, 20 countries that you want to live in. And Australia and New Zealand are near the very top. Top. Absolutely. Have you ever gone back to, or not back to, but have you gone back or has your, have your parents gone back to Latvia? Yeah, I've been, uh, I went to Riga and I went to Vince Bulls. I went to a couple of the places where the family from the women were spectacularly beautiful, but icy, just not friendly. This was kind of just, it was 10 years after, um, you know, communism come down. The, all the guys kind of look like me. So they were kind of. But the women were beautiful, but they were just very standoffish and cold. Like they, particularly if they are from Australia, you don't understand what it was like and you're so lucky. And so I didn't find the people, cause all the Latvians I'd grown up around. Yeah. We're having a party, you know, the LP records and just, you know, giving us hugs and they were great vodka. And, but, but there they were just still battling to come out of communism. But beautiful, stuck in the 1930s architecture and just beautiful. Wow. And a lot of snowing when we went there. And so I'd go for a run every morning and, you know, a lot of homeless, you know, people just kind of selling stuff on the street and still coming to terms with capitalism and communism. It was some way stuck between. I think Dad's been back. Like he's been to Germany and visited cousins and uncles there. Um, but maybe one day, one day I'll take him back and it'd be nice to take him there. What was it like growing up as a first generation in, in Canberra? Because the, I mean, Queenby, you know, across the border, did you speak Latvian at home and I don't want to. Yeah. I went to Latvian school. They actually had a, like, there you go. Yeah. Um, so we, we go and learn. But. I don't think my sister enjoyed it too much. At some stage we got pulled out of it, but I can still remember, I was quite good at it and picked up the language. Um, so yeah, we didn't have, like it was like dad spoke Latvian around his mom, like, cause my grandfather had died years before. And, um, so, so we were around a lot of Latvians, but at the same time, we had a really strong family in Koimian, like big families, big family in Koimian. So, so I had the Aussie side of the family. There was the kind of rugby league going to Queenian Blues and barbecues and beers. And then you had the Latvian side, which was, and both loved music, but the Latvian side was more vodka brandy singing songs. And we were always at a party, always at a party with the Latvians. And so it was, yeah, there was a big influence because the Latvians were just good, fun people. They were really good fun. And I wish that I was. old enough for a lot of them to sit them down and have chats with them about their lives and what they'd seen, you know, in Europe and particularly with World War II and what stories they would have had. But, you know, unfortunately, a lot of them, by the time I was probably in my twenties and I really wanted to embrace, embrace that a lot of them had died and moved on. Tough story. The story from, for your family, your grandparents. And I was trying to track kind of. That's a long way, you know, from Latvia through Eastern Germany and then to Germany to the, to the, to the Western part of, to the Western part of Germany, where they were in the allied zone. What an incredible, you know, wow, to start with. Um, but how, how courageous of them to go, we are going to try to do this. Like so many other means and displace people at the end of the war. And then to end up, um, in Australia, as opposed to whether there was a choice, Canada, us or Chile, it's just. You could have been commentating ice hockey in Toronto or something. Yeah, I could have done it that way. And then at the same time, as much as I'd said, if dad probably, as much as he loved Australia and I think he would have loved if he'd had back then more avenues for a different career or, but you know, Canberra back then was, was a totally different place and, and so was Quamebean, you know, so it's both. You know, the world's a much smaller place now with social media and satellite television and streaming and, um, you know, different world. Think about your dream commentary team, your commentary dream team. If you've got a commentary box of three people, um, the sports relevant, who would you have? If you've worked with some fantastic sports broadcasters. Wow. I've worked with so many amazing, it's part of the looking back on their career and saying, yeah, lucky. It was some of the amazing, um, I would say. I don't think necessarily he was the best commentator I work with, but I became such good friends with him. And I really admired him. He had a similar story and background to my father was Les Murray. And he could be called football or sports irrelevant. I'd like to have Johnny Warren there because he was, I could still remember as a kid shaking when he came to my school and it was Johnny Warren. But I also work with some great like Steve Mortimer's and was a great friend. was, we became very good friends when I was at Sky News with Steve, who sadly has dementia now. And Steve came to, actually Les Murray came to my wedding and people were like, oh my God. And then my wife's 40th, Steve Mortimer came to and people were like, oh my God, I'd still like to have these people that, or Mark Eller, I became really good friends with Mark Eller. So I didn't probably have Les Murray just from, because I got on very well with him. Johnny Warren just, because when I was a young man, I couldn't believe that Johnny Warren came to my school. But there's endless, you know, people that I worked with at the ABC that, like, there was never a time the ABC didn't sit with any of the commentators or, or the crick, the retired cricketers that were used and didn't get... Yeah. Wow. I think I'd have, and as the third person in the box, I'd have Debbie Spillane, who served as a great inspiration to me. I stalked her once as we joked with her because I've become... very good friends with Debbie during the, I think it was the Barcelona Olympics when I was working at Triple S. I somehow got invited to the day at the AIS where they were showing around media ahead of the Olympics and Debbie was there. And I was always a huge admirer of Debbie's and because I know as a woman what she would have put up with and then, well, she's written a book on it. So it's very, it's a great book too. And I just admired her. I wanted to be like Debbie. And then, so I followed her to this day and she looked, she'd seem like a normal human being. But I, because she'd been in Sydney and she was my idol. So I put, um, then I've been, I worked with Debbie at grandstand and, um, you know, that's one of the big tick on my career. And then if I had to actually put in just some, if I had to have a host is a guy called Goran Paladin that I work with here, who is amongst the best broadcasters I've worked with anywhere in the world is, is a New Zealander. Um, he could host the thing. So thinking back on what we've discussed today, knowing what you now know today. What would 21 year old Craig say to the Craig today? So he's sitting in line, I'm at home with mum and dad. What would 21 year old Craig say to the Craig of 2023? He'd say, uh, are you put on some weight? Which you just can't, you know, you know, it's like once you're over 50, it's impossible. Um, I think he'd, I think he'd be pleased if, if he knew what I was doing, if he was 21 year old sitting there. Aside from the fact that he would think, Oh, you're just going gray. What's the, cause it would have all been physical when you're in your early twenties and you think you're bulletproof and you're young. And, um, and I think I would have, and if this Craig had then said, well, what about, you know, this is what I've done. Then that Craig 21, it would have looked at the list and gone, well done. Um, and then I would say, I can't tell you what adventures you're going to have, but you know, You will travel the world and that's all really all I wanted as a 21 year old. So I think the 21 year old Craig, most of the advice that would be giving me would be the way I addressed or, you know, when you were 21, you think you, you know, you think you know it all when you're 21. Yeah. Big, big, big wide world to conquer. And in a sentence and to finish, what would the Craig of 2023 say to the 21 year old Craig? I would say relax. I would say do not get in your Kingswood and drive and visit all the way, because it's not, nothing's going to come of it. And then the way that you break into the industry, literally the break got me in the industry. You did none of that mattered. Um, but, you know, and I'd say, just relax, it's going to happen. And I try and it's, it's like anything in life now, you know, you kind of, you want it, it's going to happen. Young man. You know, I say that to people at work at the moment, just cause they're like, Oh, I don't know what I'm doing with my life. I said, you're doing what you meant to be doing. That's that point. And everything I did, you know, trying to get a break in the media and doing it tough and then, you know, driving trucks or working in cafes and bars and, um, you know, you made a broad cross section of life and live your life when you're twenties and then, you know, you don't want to peak too early. No, you know, work itself out. No, it will work itself out. Craig, thank you. That's been fantastic today. Congratulations on a wonderful career. You've come a long way and, you know, shout out to Capital TV, which really was back in the day, really, no, it was. I mean, you and I've been talking about it both during the show and before. It's regional TV and I've got a soft spot for regional TV, having spent a bit of time up in Canberra and growing up in different parts of Victoria with Grand Pier. There isn't as much of that anymore. A lot of people came through regional. Yeah. And it's a shame. I think it's to the... It's the industry's loss. A lot of very talented people and a lot of very talented people I worked with. Most of them been lost to the industry, unfortunately, because it is a hard industry and there's just not as many jobs anymore, which is sad because on social media, you can have your own podcast now and you can do your own stuff spoken like a 50 plus. They call it like a book. People call me a boomer at work. I'm not a boomer. I'm an ex. I've got to tell them X not boomer. Generation X. That's right. Lumpus all in the one. I even, I used to, when I was at Canberra uni, the couple I lived with were in a grunge band. They can't get more nineties than- Oh my Lord. In Canberra. In Canberra. Canberra grunge band. It was called Scruff Lovely. They were fantastic people to live with. Thank you for joining us. I never thought I'd get that answer. Thank you for joining us on Dear 21 Year Old Me. Thank you. I really appreciated Craig's insights there about leadership, about some of the things that he's had to do and about having to put the team first. It was interesting really listening to Craig in some of those difficult discussions he's had to have over his time, including at the ABC and for reasons that he explained very eloquently. Not an easy conversation, some of those conversations to have, particularly when you're dealing with a matter many, many hours away in completely different continent and other country. Craig's had a really fascinating career. I really appreciate it and respect it. The fact that he's gotten that, you know, you can almost imagine it driving out of Canberra and then through Western New South Wales to places like Broken Hill. And that guy not turning up for any of you, that's a long drive and a very, very long drive back. So some fascinating insights there from a very experienced, humble and reflective journalist and manager in their own right. So thank you to Craig. All the links for the show will be up on the show notes. We'll obviously make sure that we do a shout out to Craig's colleagues on Today FM in New Zealand. Just as someone who lived in New Zealand there for a little while over those years back, amazing just how much content, Craig and I reflected on a little, how much content through TVNZ and then Radio New Zealand and news talks had been now today, radio station out of MediaWorks is just incredible. And I love living in New Zealand and part of that was listening to stations like Hauraki and even a little bit of the breeze in Wellington, Harbour City, you're a friend of mine, all those little jingles that come back in your mind. A great country, wonderful people. And I'm also not surprised that Craig has found it such a great country to live in. So wherever you are in New Zealand, Australia, the States, around the world, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Dear 21 Year Old Me. A shout out as always to Darcy and the team for putting the podcast together in the background, but to you most importantly, there are many, many things you could be doing with your day and listening to this podcast is something that I really appreciate. So thank you very much for taking your time to listen to this podcast. That is it for this episode of DA21 and All Me. Again, thanks to Craig Norenberg's fantastic guest. Looking forward to catching up with Craig sometime. Hopefully he'll be able to buy him a beer or two when he's in Melbourne. And thank you to you for listening, no matter where you are. That's it. Go well, stay well. Bye for now. Thanks for joining us today. For more episodes and links, visit Dear21YearOldMe.com. And if you enjoyed the show, don't forget to rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts.