Beyond York

The York School has a 100% university placement rate. Grade 12 students apply to an average of seven post-secondary institutions of which upwards of 40% are outside Canada. With the support of one of the country’s best University Counselling offices, York School graduates find their best-fit universities and are future-ready. The world is their oyster! 

In this episode, join host, Natasha Estey, in conversation with David Hanna, Director of University Counselling, and York alumni Elias Volonakis and Georgia Samuel, about how The York School really does prepare its graduates to “take on the world”!

Check out David Hanna’s blog, Beyond The York School. The Beyond York app can be downloaded from the Apple Store or Google Play Store. Follow David Hanna on Twitter. The Our Kids review of The York School can be found here. The organization Georgia has volunteered with for years is Dramaway and the choir Elias remains involved with is Viva Singers. And if you’re looking for an excellent math tutor, you can find Elias at the Math Guru! 

Written and produced by Natasha Estey
Audio editing by Andrew Scott

Transcript

Natasha Estey: 0:02

Hi there, and welcome to YORK Talks, a podcast for families wanting to learn more about The York School, Toronto's leading co-ed, independent school, delivering the IB programme from Junior Kindergarten to Grade 12. I'm your host, Natasha Estey. Join me in conversation with school leaders, teachers, students and parents in The York School community about different aspects of the school, providing you with a more candid look inside York. Welcome to Episode 6 of YORK Talks. From my years working in admissions, I know that a question on many parents' minds is, at the end of the day, will my child get into a good university? Navigating the university application process has become way more nuanced and complex, and expectations are high. In a review of The York School, Our Kids, a trusted source for information about independent and private schools, made the bold claim that York has one of the best, most developed, and effective university counselling programmes in the country. Today, we're going to learn about how The York School prepares its graduates to take on the world beyond York by employing a strategy for success built upon the fundamental principle that stories matter. To explore this, I am delighted to be joined by The York School's legendary Director of University Counselling, David Hanna, and York School alumni, Elias Volonakis and Georgia Samuel. Elias graduated from York in 2017. He is in his final year of a Bachelor of Science degree with a double major in Mathematics and Computer Science at the University of Toronto. Georgia graduated from York in 2019. She's partway through a Bachelor's degree in Urban Studies with minors in Geographic Information Systems and Bioethics also at the University of Toronto. David Hanna founded The York School's University Counselling office in 2000 and has literally touched the lives of every single graduate since. Thank you all for joining me today.

David Hanna: 2:16

Well, thank you. Great to be here, Natasha. Very flattering introduction. Hi, G Sam! How are you?

Georgia Samuel: 2:24

I'm great, D Han. Thank you for having me today. I'm so happy to be here and be able to talk through all my good experiences at York.

David Hanna: 2:33

Nice to hear your voice again. Hi, Elias. Nice to see you again, or hear from you again.

Elias Volonakis: 2:38

Hi, Mr. Hanna. Good to hear from you too.

Natasha Estey: 2:42

Awesome. Okay, so I have so many questions about this topic, but maybe it's best to start at the beginning. The York School's university counselling programme is based on the belief that every student who comes through the doors has a story. And that part of finding the best possible post secondary placements for graduates is for students to be able to identify, develop, and tell their unique stories. This process does not start in Grade 12. So David, maybe you could tell us about how the programme has been designed to help students begin their story in middle school, develop their story through high school, and then tell their story when they're looking ahead to university.

David Hanna: 3:22

When a student enters The York School, whether it's in Grade 7, or eight or nine, we want our students and parents to know that the experience they're taking advantage of while being at The York School is going to present them with millions of opportunities to do interesting things. I mean, the schooling they're going to get is going to be second to none. They're going to get an excellent education. That's the baseline. That's a given. But when students have available to them clubs, teams, activities, volunteer opportunities, those are the mediums through which students are going to start to experience things that they learn about themselves and can also be the medium through which they start to develop their stories. So for instance, in Grades 7 and 8, a student doesn't necessarily know what it is that they're passionate about. They may they may not. But those are the years that we want students to explore things. In Grades 9 and 10, we encourage our students to continue to go a little deeper into the things that really resonated with them. So they may have really riffed on volunteering at the food bank, or they may have really enjoyed being on the volleyball team. So go deeper into those things. Get more committed to it. And by the time they're in Grade 11 and 12, we do expect that they're continuing to be involved in these things. But they start to understand how that experience is shaping not only their personalities, but what they've learned from the experience. And those kinds of reflections that, quite frankly, really only a 16, 17, 18 year-old - only then can they really start to reflect on how those have shaped who they are, how they've grown through that experience, and also what they've contributed to that experience. And that story is something that they're going to have to articulate for university applications as we move into a university application process that is increasingly relying on supplementals and students are articulating their passion for, for admission to programmes.

Natasha Estey: 5:35

David in that Our Kids review that I mentioned in my introduction, you talked about students growing into something "pointy" and that being a little different in something versus being well-rounded in everything, but awesome in nothing, is what really helps students get an edge. Could you speak a little more about that philosophy?

David Hanna: 5:55

We've used the phrase that marks matter, and they do, but the experiences you have in school also matter. And increasingly so, as I alluded to earlier, that those are the differentiators between students with good marks and students with good marks and good experiences. So riffing on that, the idea that a pointy student, it's not about necessarily becoming a quirky person with odd behaviours that, you know, you do something in a in an odd and different way. It's about going deep into something. It's not about signing up for a tonne of clubs. Those students that think they need to keep busy by joining every single club and being a member of everything, that's actually doing that student a disservice. That kind of experience should happen in the early grades. That's called exploring. But by the middle of high school, and towards the latter years, we want students to attach themselves and go a deep dive into that particular experience.

Natasha Estey: 7:04

And it's not necessarily to do with academics, right?

David Hanna: 7:07

It isn't necessarily to do with academics, yeah. A pointy student is a student that has committed to a particular programme or experience that they can really talk about how it's shaped who they are. So an example might be a student has, let's say, a student in Grade 10, through their Personal Project, which is something we do in the Middle Years Programme at The York School, let's say a student did a project on building birdhouses. Interesting project. It's something that they are passionate about. But if that passion continued through the later parts of Grade 10, and into 11 and 12, and that person really developed a hobby of Ornithology and started getting into bird identification and classification and started working on their checklist and contributed to the Audubon Society as a youth worker and did bird counts, that student is developing a pointy story about what it is that they do. It can really differentiate them from an average kid, a kid that's just signed up for everything but did nothing. I guess one metaphor, one analogy, would be, don't be a jack of all trades, be a master of a few trades.

Natasha Estey: 8:30

So Georgia, I'm curious to know what the pointy thing was that you grew into? And how did that help you stand out from the pack when applying to university? And then, Elias, I want to ask you the same question.

Georgia Samuel: 8:43

I think it's easy to say that I enjoyed school. I was never a student that necessarily hated school had any courses that I was particularly loathing, but certainly where I found my passion was in extracurriculars, like my community service and my debate experience. So I guess speaking first on debate, debate was always the extracurricular I was most plugged into when I was in high school. And I think that was sort of just my curiosity of ideas and exploring how to speak and how to present information. It sort of tied into my academic life, but also allowed me to bring it beyond. I was able to think and compete in different ways that wasn't necessarily always conducive with school. And that was something that will not only help me with school, but also helped me develop my views on the world and make me realize that I wanted to go into advocacy. And I mean, I guess I chose Urban Studies as a way to go through advocacy, just looking at community development. But debate was a place where I could explore that passion and the way I wanted to look at issues and discuss those issues with other like-minded students. Also, just in connection with that idea of advocacy and wanting to be part of community development and discourse, I did a lot of volunteering with an organization called Dramaway, which provides arts programming for adults with disabilities. And I found that like, honestly, that was my passion that I explored in Grade 9 and 10. First as a service project where I was just trying to get my hours done like every single other high school kid. And then it became something that was so much more than that. Even after my hours were long done in Grade 10, I continued to go in Grade 11 and 12 because I realized that these people and the ways that they think about the world and look at the world and create community within this programming, was exactly what I was hoping to do with my career going forward as an Urban Studies student. And it was through volunteering at these programmes in tandem with my co-curricular activities and what I was learning in class, that I realized that this was what I was really striving for. I was striving to create community and look at how we can do that through unconventional mechanisms, whether it be through the arts, or sharing space, and just how that's done. So that was really, I think, what made me pointy, was just how much all of my interest in advocacy and community development sort of weaves through my community service experience, my extracurriculars, but then also all the experiences that I was given academically.

David Hanna: 11:29

You know, Georgia did find a passion with her work with Dramaway. And that was great for her. And it was perhaps one of the pointy things. But one of the benefits of her having that passion was it was on public display. It inspired a lot of younger students to see this senior student really enjoying this process. And Georgia's commitment to that inspired kids in Grades 9 and 10 who are now admiring what she did in Dramaway and they're doing the same thing. So Georgia, you probably don't know this, but Dramaway is alive and well and there are kids that quietly watched you really go for it. And they're doing the same thing today because of you. And the other thing I want to add that is Georgia also was our Head Girl at the time. Is that correct, Georgia?

Georgia Samuel: 12:28

That would be correct.

David Hanna: 12:29

And, you know, as a very public figure at our school with that position of responsibility, she was really looked up to by those students who were younger than her. So, again, she found a very pointy path and, through her position, she was able to influence the success of others. So it's a beautiful circle. Because that's what it is. It's just a beautiful circle.

Natasha Estey: 12:56

Elias, what's your full circle?

Elias Volonakis: 13:00

When Mr. Hanna started talking about the Personal Project about birdhouses, it made me smile, because my Personal Project was about jazz composition. I created two jazz arrangements that were later performed by the Senior Jazz Ensemble. And starting with that Personal Project, I got several opportunities to arrange for the Jazz Ensemble, for the Concert Band, and to delve into music more generally. So as well, outside of school, I was a teaching assistant, and still am, actually with a choir for students with specialities. And all of the pieces that I was able to do at York, be it with the Concert Band, be it with be with the Jazz Band, that was something extra that I was able to put in all of my applications, where it wasn't just the - as you mentioned, I'm in math and computer science. So with all of the applications, after submitting the marks, I would also be able to say, but I've also done all of these incredible things in music and York had given me the opportunity to do them.

Natasha Estey: 14:25

Absolutely. And I always see such an interesting connection too between the math and the music as well. Just the way that your brain kind of puts together musical composition. And you think about the programming that you do in your work these days. I just think that there's lots of interesting connections there too.

Elias Volonakis: 14:46

Yeah, certainly. I remember my math IA. One of the major projects in Higher Level Math that I did was, it was creating a mathematical model using the complex roots of unity to map out Western harmony. And it was this weird connection between math and music that wasn't really apparent at first glance. But I delved really deep into that. So all the way in third year now, when I took a complex analysis course, and we discussed roots of unity, I knew exactly what they were talking about. And I was kind of reflecting in the auditorium thinking, this was my math IA. Components of this was my math IA.

Natasha Estey: 15:36

That is so interesting.

David Hanna: 15:38

Wow. That's amazing.

Elias Volonakis: 15:41

Yeah.

Natasha Estey: 15:43

One of the things I mentioned in my introduction is that parents might kind of judge a school for its track record of getting its graduates into Ivy League universities. And David, you've talked about how your work with families is really predicated on this belief that university placement is about a fit to be made, rather than this idea of a prize to be won. Can you tell us more about that?

David Hanna: 16:06

Yeah, I mean, it's a well worn phrase. University placement is a fit to be made, not a prize to be won. But it is a mindset. I mean, parents and students need to understand that there's so many options out there for students to choose from universities. I mean, there are are 2000 undergraduate colleges in the United States. There's 93 in Canada. And then there's Great Britain and Europe and the rest of the world. Students are confronted with hundreds, if not thousands, of possible good fit schools. And so the default through the confusion is to gravitate towards brand name and street reputations. And so, we're all very familiar with Ivy League schools and the top-ranked Canadian schools, all of which are well-deserved in earning their reputations according to the statistics or the evaluations that things like US News and World Report do on these schools. However, not every one of those schools isn't necessarily a good fit for that individual student that we are working with. And it is very important in the counselling process that we, as counsellors, really get to know our students, we get to know their strengths and their weaknesses and their interests and their passions, but also some of the softer elements of what it is they're looking for in a post secondary education. Factors in terms of maturity level and willing to take risks and study abroad. All these things are used to evaluate and present to students options of schools that will be really good fits for them. I'll never forget, I had a student who was hell bent on going to Harvard. Harvard, Harvard, Harvard. It was like, I hear it's really good. It's Harvard. That's why I'm applying. It broke my heart that the student was so fixated on that school by name brand. My understanding of that student is that he would have despised his time at Harvard because the milieu and the environment would be antithetical to what he was all about. But there was a better school for him and a school that had more kids that thought like he did. And he, this particular student, I said, have you looked at Brown University? It's a great school. And you know, the kind of programme you're looking for is something you can create at Brown University. But at Harvard, I think you'd be a little unhappy. So he looked at Brown, and he fell in love with it and totally got off the Harvard bandwagon, but he'd never considered Brown. And consequently, my understanding is, he's doing very well there. So it was helping that student find a fit. And and although that's a reference to two Ivy League schools, the same would hold true to schools in Canada. I mean, I don't think many people know that one of the highest ranked undergraduate universities in Canada is located in New Brunswick, and by the name of Mount Allison University. That is a dynamite school that is a great fit for some kids. It's highly ranked because those professors want to teach 18, 19, 20, 21 year-olds. They are passionate about eliciting the best out of those students. An interesting side note, in 12 of the last 15 years, Mount Allison University has produced Rhodes Scholars for 12 out of the past 15 years.

Natasha Estey: 20:00

Wow.

David Hanna: 20:01

That's an exceptional statistic for a very small institution in Sackville, New Brunswick, but that's because those professors are engaging and enlightening and firing up the spark of these students in that experience. And for some of our students, that is kind of like a mini York School. Actually, it's a little bigger than - it's a lot bigger than The York School. But it's a great transition for that student to really flourish in a setting. So I'm not plugging that school, but it's about finding the fit for a student where they're at, at the time. You know, one of the things that really breaks my heart is if a student goes to a school for the wrong reasons.

Natasha Estey: 20:43

Mm hmm.

David Hanna: 20:44

Nine times out of 10, they will reflect - by the second or third year at university - like, geez, I wish I had done something different because this was okay, but it's not great. I wish I had done that. Gone that extra mile or stepped a little bit out of my comfort zone to go for that school in the United Kingdom or go for that school on the other side of Canada. We want to explore that in Grades 11 and 12, so that feeling isn't realized in first or second year.

Natasha Estey: 21:21

Elias, Georgia, at the end of the day, do you guys feel that you've landed in your best fit university and

Georgia Samuel: 21:28

I think I've definitely ended up in my best programme? fit. It's funny, because actually, as Mr. Hanna was talking about people who didn't go far enough out of their comfort zone, my largest concern during the application process was that I would end up in Toronto. I had no bigger fear in the entirety of the university application process. I was like, I need to get out of Toronto. I have been here my entire life. And it's just not branching out enough for me to be here for undergrad. So I applied everywhere else. I looked everywhere else. And then I was sitting there and I was like, Georgia, you want to do urban planning. You don't want to be outside of Toronto. Toronto is actually exactly where you want to be. And you need to look beyond just where it's located and actually what the schools are about. And when I started to look into the programme, I was like, oh, maybe U of T could be something I'm interested in. And then I realized another passion of mine, which is hockey, well U of T has the best girls intramural hockey programme in the country. And I was like, oh, well, that could be of interest. And then U of T also has one of the best debating programmes in the country. And I was like, oh, well, I guess that could be of interest too. So I found myself sitting here like, well, U of T is the best school for me. And I could have completely overlooked it because it was in my own city. So I think the fact that I was encouraged to look at so many schools and because I was so undecided on where I wanted to go to apply to so many schools, and sort of actually sit down and look at them for an afternoon because, obviously, it's hectic in Grade 12.

Natasha Estey: 23:08

Mm hmm.

Georgia Samuel: 23:08

So to be able to take that time and sort of sit down and be like, well, what am I actually looking for in my undergrad degree? And when I wrote down all those characteristics, U of T checked every single box. And so I think that was a big moment for me to realize, wow, it isn't about the place where I'm going. It's really about what I wanted to learn. And obviously, that's not the same for everyone. But for me, I thought that was a really big, crazy moment that I never would have had, if I hadn't had the extensive counselling I had. To go where I wanted to do what I wanted to do, as opposed to go where I wanted to be, because there's the rest of my life for that.

David Hanna: 23:48

That is right. And if you're obsessed with rankings, you can also brag that you're in one of the top 20 universities in the world. And, you know, just another point, I mean, these students are going into undergraduate programmes. And Georgia, it's such a great fit. I'm so pleased how you articulated that. But you have a lot of education left in you. And I really want you to go into a graduate school that's, you know, even in the top 10 of the world, because that's where you belong. And you're going to set yourself up for that through your experiences at U of T. Like you will be, I don't know, you'll probably be a teaching assistant at NYU or something, you know, doing Urban Studies. So hang in there, kid. Maybe even London. We should get you looking at some London schools. So you see what happens. I can't help it!

Natasha Estey: 24:42

I was gonna say, I know exactly, exactly.

Elias Volonakis: 24:45

The counselling doesn't stop.

Natasha Estey: 24:47

Elias, what about you? Do you feel that you've landed in your best fit university and programme?

Elias Volonakis: 24:52

Yeah, very much so. We're gonna give so many brownie points to U of T now. U of T is also a great fit for me. And my criterion was I didn't want to go too far. And I wanted to have a programme that had the option to do a co-op and to have some kind of work experience in the undergrad. So very quickly, I remember in Grade 12, the best options for that, that I was able to identify, was U of T and Waterloo. And just with a lot of digging deeper, doing campus visits, talking to professors - and all of this was facilitated by the counsellors at York - I was able to identify that U of T was the best fit. I think part of that for the co-op, I'm doing a co op currently, and it's 16 months, so I get to really sit in and see all of the coding that I'm doing, all the work that I'm putting in, see it grow. But even at such a big school as U of T, one of the thoughts that I had initially was, well, there's a good Greek Students Association. So right now, I'm one of the Associate Chair Members of the Greek Students Association. I've been helping out with launching this Greek language portal that the Greek Students Association has deployed, but will continue to deploy later this year. So it really is a great, great fit.

Natasha Estey: 26:41

And you're still involved with that choir, aren't you?

Elias Volonakis: 26:43

Yeah, so one of the big pieces, I think, for me actually, was the choir that I'm with, they're based in Toronto. Even now, during the pandemic, we're doing the rehearsals via Zoom. But it was really important to me, actually, to keep up the role and to still be connected as a chorister and as a teaching assistant there. So going to U of T and having the intense workload balanced with such a great extracurricular was really important for me.

Natasha Estey: 27:18

That's so - again, full circle. It's amazing. So David, when you think of university counselling at The York School, what is the ultimate goal of university counselling? What does success look like to you?

David Hanna: 27:35

Well, we have a vision, or a mission statement, within our department. And that is, I mean, it's going back to that term to find the best fit, not a prize. That drives us. And I guess our ultimate goal in the university counselling department, is to work with every student individually. We do not want this to be a cookie cutter, everyone gather, do this, you know, all 60 people sit around and do this at the same time, you know, step-by-step instruction on how to apply, the mechanics of it. We want the university counselling experience to be very personalized. We want it to be one on one. We love our students. I mean, we really enjoy working with them. They're all great kids, and we really enjoy sitting down with them, and their families are welcome as well, to really work out what it is that's going to work best for them. And that takes a lot of time and energy. But it also gives us a lot of energy, because we are helping these kids realize what it is that they want to do. So our goal is to treat every individual as an individual and work with them as an individual, and make sure that they're really satisfied at the end of the day.

Natasha Estey: 28:58

Yeah, and the genuine delight that the members of the university counselling team have in the process and staying in touch with the graduates and following their journeys is really, it's wonderful to see. It's really special.

David Hanna: 29:16

Yeah, we really care about our kids after York. I mean, we can't help ourselves but, you know, keep cheerleading for Georgia and Elias. They don't know it, but we're cheerleading for them back home at The York School. And we want to know what they're doing. And we want to hear their successes. We want to hear about their struggles, if they're having any. And, you know, we would be happy to help if they ever asked but, you know, generally they're big enough now to do this on their own and we're rooting for them back at the home base.

Natasha Estey: 29:53

There's another quote, David, that you've said, and you say that you don't ask kids what they want to do when they grow up. You ask them what problems that they want to solve when they grow up. So just a final question for Georgia and for Elias, what problems do you guys want to solve when you grow up? And do you feel like you're future-ready?

Georgia Samuel: 30:16

For sure, when I want to grow up - I sort of referenced this earlier - I just want to be able to create community. I want to redevelop social and physical infrastructure such that it's serving the people that are using it every day. Because I think there's nothing more rewarding than knowing that every day, somebody is experiencing their world in a better way because of the way that you've been able to plan their city, or the way that you've been able to create social infrastructure within their community. So that's really my goal at the end of the day.

Natasha Estey: 30:49

And do you feel future-ready?

Georgia Samuel: 30:51

And I feel future ready. Like honestly, I think the skills I've learned at York, and the experience I've gotten at York, has really just sort of set me up to know exactly where I want to be and exactly how I want to get there.

David Hanna: 31:04

I have a tear in my eye.

Natasha Estey: 31:08

Elias, for you?

Elias Volonakis: 31:11

In terms of what problems to solve, whatever problems there are that I can solve with math and computer science, and that I can see the results of my actions. That's what I want to do. Currently, in the co-op that I'm doing, I take great pride in the work that I'm doing because I can see the results in the next deployment of the app. Or I tutor math and I can see when the student gets the math and I can see how they walk away from the session a little bit more confident, a little bit more happy. So if there's some kind of change in that way, with respect to computer science and math, that's my goal. And absolutely, I'm future ready, I think. As well with the extracurriculars, as well with the intense IB programme at York, I'm most definitely future-ready.

David Hanna: 32:19

Closing notes. I would just say, once a Yorkie always a Yorkie. We're proud of what our kids are doing. You guys are awesome. Thank you very much for coming today. And yeah, I mean, go team!

Natasha Estey: 32:35

It's incredibly inspiring. It really is. You guys are definitely, you know, I hate to use the tagline, but you really are taking on the world in your own wonderful, pointy, unique ways. It's great.

Georgia Samuel: 32:48

Thank you. Yeah,

Elias Volonakis: 32:50

Thanks very much.

Natasha Estey: 33:00

It really is inspiring to learn how our graduates are finding their way beyond The York School and encouraging to hear that they feel future-ready. It's also a testament to the strength of the university counselling programme at York. Thank you for listening. And thanks again to Director of University Counselling, David Hanna, and York alumni, Georgia Samuel and Elias Volonakis, for joining me today. I encourage you to check out David Hanna's blog, Beyond The York School. And check out the Beyond York app in the Apple Store or at Google Play Store. You can follow David Hanna on Twitter @dhanna62. A link to the Our Kids review of The York School can be found in the show notes. And if you're looking for an excellent math tutor, you can find Elias at the Math Guru. Visit YORK Talks online at www.yorkschool.com/YORKTalks. Subscribe to YORK Talks where you get your podcasts and tell other families wanting to learn more about how The York School approaches education. I'm your host, Natasha Estey. I hope you enjoyed the conversation today. Please join us again for more YORK Talks.