KIM: Hi everyone! Welcome to Lost Ladies of Lit, the podcast dedicated to preserving the legacies of forgotten women writers. I’m Kim Askew, here with my co-host, Amy Helmes.
AMY: While preparing to discuss this week’s lost lady, the British novelist Barbara Comyns, I found myself feeling fascinated and mildly unsettled at the same time. Does that register at all with you, Kim?
KIM: Well, yes. I’m thinking about two of her novels which we’re focusing on for this episode: Our Spoons Came From Woolworth and The Vet’s Daughter. I think “fascinating-slash-unnerving” can apply to them both. Almost all of Barbara Comyns’ books feature vulnerable young women enduring traumatic ordeals, be it crushing poverty, abandonment or abuse. Yet wit and woe sit side-by-side in her books (which were published between 1947 and 1989). They are dark, yes, but at the same time there’s also something almost effervescent about them.
AMY: Yes, there's a remarkable quality about them where imaginative power and humor seem to effortlessly emerge, almost as if they're capable of levitating from within, even catching you by surprise.
KIM: “Levitate.” Now that’s a term we’ll be returning to later on in this episode. But let’s start things off with our feet firmly on the ground, because there’s a lot to discuss in the life of Barbara Comyns, who counted surrealists, spies and a one-time romantic rival among her close friends.
AMY: Her life was not without its complications, messiness (and yes, stress) but with a sort of naive pluck, she powered through. As she once wrote in her novel Mr. Fox: “In the back of my mind I was always sure that wonderful things were waiting for me, but I’d got to get through a lot of horrors first.”
KIM: That line is actually an epigraph from a terrific new biography on Barbara Comyns by Avril Horner, who’s joining us today for this discussion. So let’s raid the stacks and get started!
[intro music plays]
KIM: Our guest today, Avril Horner, is an emeritus professor of English at Kingston University in South West London. With a particular interest in women writers and gothic fiction, Avril has co-authored and/or edited numerous books including Women and the Gothic, Living on Paper: Letters From Iris Murdoch and Edith Wharton: Sex, Satire and the Older Woman.
AMY: Avril’s most recent book is Barbara Comyns: A Savage Innocence, published in March by Manchester University Press. British news outlet The Independent included this book in its list of the best nonfiction books to read in 2024 and also declared that Avril’s book is, quote, “an important intervention, ensuring Barbara Comyns’ name is not forgotten. But it’s also a reminder that writers’ legacies need careful stewarding and are never guaranteed.”
KIM: Hear, hear! Avril, welcome to the show and congratulations on this book!
AVRIL: [responds]
AMY: So Barbara Comyns wrote 11 novels which were published across five decades. The reception toward most of her books was initially mixed at best (sales were often underwhelming) a fact that left Comyns discouraged until much later in her life when her work was given new consideration and began earning high praise. Avril, when did you first discover Comyns’ books and what made you want to write her biography?
AVRIL: [responds]
KIM: A Savage Innocence is such a great subtitle for your book. Can you talk about that description with regard to Comyns and her work?
AVRIL: [responds]
AMY: Barbara Comyns was born Barbara Bayley in 1907 in Bidford-on-Avon. She was one of 6 children in an upper-middle-class family whose home was Bell Court, a large country house on the River Avon. This all sounds, on the surface, pretty idyllic. Avril, tell us a bit more about the realities of her youth and how that would shape her?
AVRIL: [responds]
KIM: Barbara’s formal education ended at 15. With her father’s finances more precarious at this point in time, she was expected to go off and support herself and she knew she wanted to be an artist, so after a failed stint working as a kennel maid in Amsterdam, she moved to London and enrolled in art school. This was in the late 1920s and she found herself living sort of the classic Bohemian lifestyle, right Avril?
AVRIL: [responds…Can talk a little about this time period, modeling for artists, marrying John Pemberton, being poor but in the mix of a cool scene.]
AMY: All this coincides with Barbara’s highly autobiographical second novel Our Spoons Came From Woolworths, which she wrote when she was in her forties looking back at this earlier time. (It was published in 1950) The novel begins with 21-year-old Sophia Fairclough [Fairclow?] marrying an artist... As in the novel, Barbara really did have her pet newt in the pocket of her tweed suit at her wedding (such an unforgettable detail!) And also as in the novel, Barbara and her husband began their married life poor, but happy. I thought based on the book’s title that this was going to be a cheery, maybe quirky story about domestic life. It’s not really that. Avril, can you sketch out the various ways that Barbara’s (and ergo the fictional Sophia’s) life falls into chaos?
AVRIL: [pregnancy, poverty, husband who pulls no weight, extramarital affair and getting pregnant again.]
KIM: Both Barbara and Sophia have two children, a son and a daughter, so let’s talk a little more about the maternity ward scenes in the novel, because they are so intense. Avril, would you be willing to read a short passage from the book?
AVRIL: [After reading a short scene, can talk about what makes the frankness of Comyns’s writing on childbirth here so remarkable/important?]
AMY: I remember laughing out loud when Sophia gets pregnant for the third time and Comyns writes that she thinks, “Why should all these babies pick on me?” So there is humor in this book, but it derives from Sophia’s misery. The writer Maggie O’Farrell describes it as “the disparity between tone and content.” What makes this formula so successful for Comyns, Avril? How does she pull this off?
AVRIL: [responds… use of faux naive narrator etc]
KIM: In the book, Sophia takes a lover, a man named Peregrine. [pr: Para-grin] His real life equivalent in Barbara’s life was an artist and critic named Rupert Lee. But the more fascinating relationship, which we learn about in your biography, is between Barbara and Rupert’s other mistress, Diana Brinton. She and Barbara were “frienemies” you might say?
AVRIL: [Explain more about this unusual dynamic.]
AMY: Interestingly, Diana isn’t depicted anywhere in Spoons. But it was really eye-opening to read this novel alongside your biography, Avril, and track the many, many details that line up. (Your book is a great reference guide while reading any of Comyns’ novels since so many of her titles are autofiction.) But one book that veers a bit from her own experiences is The Vet’s Daughter. It seems like this one is Comyns’ most critically acclaimed novel, and Avril, I’m so glad you urged us to read this one in addition to Our Spoons Came From Woolworths. I loved this book!
AVRIL: [can respond on why you thought it was a good idea to include it in our discussion.
KIM: The Vet’s Daughter was first published in 1959. Can you summarize the plot briefly, Avril, and is there anything at all in this novel that does line up with Comyns’ life?
AVRIL: [responds… father’s violent outbursts and can maybe include here how important animals were in Barbara’s life]
AMY: So let’s talk about Alice’s ability to levitate. I don’t know when the field of psychology began to discuss dissociation and “out of body” experiences, but this felt very ahead of its time for her to make this connection.
AVRIL: [responds and can you talk about her own history in thinking about levitation even in childhood and the fact that it also appears in Spoons… can also talk about what makes this novel Surrealist. Feel free to read an appropriate passage from The Vet’s Daughter)
KIM: There’s so much cruelty in this novel. Cruelty to animals. Cruelty to Alice and her mother.
AMY: Yeah, it’s awful, and yet the experience of reading the novel isn’t awful. I’m not exactly sure how Comyns accomplishes this. I wonder if her writing style also offers that same ability to sort of hover apart from what is happening? Because for me, there was no dread associated with reading this. I couldn’t put it down!
[anyone can chime in here or offer further commentary on the novel.]
KIM: Avril, what kind of response did this book get when it was published, and how did it sell in comparison to her other novels?
AVRIL: [responds… and can also talk about people who either seemed to love or hate her work and sales weren’t too hot.]
AMY: Graham Greene was an important champion of Comyns’ work, describing her talent as “strange and offbeat.” Can you talk about his role in helping her establish herself as a writer?
AVRIL: [responds…. Can also segue here into mentioning Barbara’s marriage to Robert Comyns and the MI6, spy stuff.]
KIM: Prior to marrying Richard, Comyns was romantically involved with another interesting man who inspired her novel Mr. Fox. We don’t have time here to dive into every aspect of her life, but she had so many, many different experiences, be it her romantic relationships, her various gambits for earning money, her frequent moves to different lodgings…
AMY: Yes, my takeaway from your biography is that she was never really settled. It’s that old refrain of “wherever you go, there you are.”
AVRIL: [Can mention moving to Spain and ultimately ending back in England.]
KIM: By the time she finally settled back in England, she started to (for once in her life) establish some financial security. Can we talk about how important Virago Press was to her ultimate success and her legacy?
AVRIL: [responds…. Is her popularity continuing to grow as more time passes or do you think she’s in danger of being “lost” again? Drawing conversation to a close ]
AMY: I’m very intrigued by some of her other titles (your descriptions of The Skin Chairs and House of Dolls both piqued my interest).
AVRIL: [Can respond briefly if you want to give a shout out to any of your favorite Comyns books]
KIM: Avril, thank you so much for joining us today and congratulations on the release of this book.
[Goodbyes, etc]
AMY: So that’s all for today’s episode. We’ll be back next week with another bonus episode exclusively for our Patreon listeners. (I think Barbara Comyns has inspired me to investigate some women writers who kept unusual pets, so feel free to join me for that discussion.) And we can all meet back in two weeks to explore another lost lady!
KIM: Our theme song was written and performed by Jennie Malone and our logo was designed by Harriet Grant. Lost Ladies of Lit is produced by Amy Helmes and Kim Askew.