Juan Santoyo - Exploring the Embodied Mind through Cognitive Science and Meditation

In this video, Juan Santoyo explores the concept of the embodied mind in cognitive science and its profound connection to meditation practices. Drawing on the influential work of pioneers like Ben Thompson, Eleanor Roshan, and Francisco Varela, Juan discusses how the brain and mind are not isolated entities but are deeply intertwined with the body and environment.

This conversation highlights the importance of first-person methodologies in studying the mind and the emerging paradigm of contemplative science. Discover how the integration of meditation practices with scientific research is paving the way for new insights and understanding.

Learn more about Juan Santoyo

Science & Wisdom LIVE brings meditation practitioners in conversation with scientists to address the problems of contemporary society and come to new possible solutions.

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Transcript

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Welcome to Science and wisdom live, where scientists and meditators meet. One of the quick first impacts of Ben Thompson, Eleanor Roshan, Francisco Varela put out a book on the embodied mind. I think it's a big book in cognitive science, probably folks here familiar with it. But it was really calling into the brain sciences, the idea that we could not look at the brain as just as something individual independent separate from the body, but rather, our view of brain needed to be that the brain is embodied. It is located in our physical system and not separate from it. The brain is also that the mind is also inactive. Cognition is by nature, about the actions in the world, we are beings trying to navigate a world. And so cognition engages from this interplay between agent and environment. And also, the mind is extended and embedded in the world. Not only are we a part of the world, there are there are no seams between body and the world around us and the other bodies around us. But other bodies around us actually form a part of our brain. Together, we hold memories, our laptop, hold, our notes are videos, all things that are part of our extended mind. And so this this kind of a very naturally as you encounter the meditation tradition, and here we are, the mind is embodied, practices embodied. And so it seems like a very, it was one of one very quick fruit that came out of this work. Second, out of this work came a methodological discussion. There was It was quick, there was a quick and important recognition that the Buddhist body of knowledge about the mind, Buddhist philosophy, Buddha's mind training, drew on a method of investigating the mind through direct observation of experience. This was kind of a, as opposed to the scientific third person method where we're scientists like to believe you can be detached from your object of study and measure it from the outside. This was directly saying, we study the mind here inside the mind. And we look at experience from the mind first from experience first. So this, this was an interesting contrast, and it began to right away challenge the brain sciences, not only to suggest a potential additional method for studying the mind, but it argued that this first person perspective was necessary to form a complete understanding of mind that there are elements of mind of lived experience that are only experiential, they can therefore only be accessed through experience and then shared reported on and perhaps through that first person access, we could start to build a first person science that could dance and collaborate with our third person measurements and knowledge. At the same time, not not only that, this possibility of a first person method, not only was it recognised and then seen as a potential adjunct designers, but but it also involved in point of reflection that science is not a third person method. It is always mediated by the scientists experience, and you can't measure what you don't observe. And so there's been an additional form reflection that took from this field that science is shaped science is transformed by the experimenter and science itself will change the experimenter and their experience. And so this was this was an exciting kind of one of these second pivots that I think show how this dialogue began to change the brain sciences. This kind of this has culminated now in that, you know, ongoing work to see if we can build what can be considered a contemplative science, that the contemplative traditions can be as thoroughly Grantham and in many ways, they are thoroughly grounded in empirical and critical ways of knowing. And so this is kind of an ongoing work. And I think there are, we're still kind of seeing how this the examples that come forward of this. And finally, I think just one of the one of the final ways in which I, one of the other important ways in which science began to be changed by this is the idea of hybrid contemplative scientific training, and that this could actually be a pivotal foundation for contemplative research for the possibility of this type of a contemplative science. This is the idea that we actually need to start building a community of research and researchers that are themselves trained in contemplative methods And the the traditional third person methods of the Academy of the sciences. And so nowadays, it actually is pretty normal that, that most researchers studying meditation are also practitioners. And so and and it's it's kind of a unique change in science where normally you try to pretend you can be separate from your object of study. Here instead you're we're emphasising that you actually need to be present with them with meditation with practice to really understand it. And that the more present we are in our own practice, the better we will understand the types of questions we can ask, and that we should ask. And so importantly, I think that it's kind of just this, this is a core development for the for the way we teach science, is I just wanted to I think there's just even just a little personal note, I think I had the luck to be in be an heir to this idea. I think my started my, when I started my undergraduate programme, these ideas were far along enough that I was actually as an undergraduate able to engage at Brown University and contemplative studies programme as my undergraduate study. And so I studied contemplative studies in parallel with cognitive neuroscience. And this meant that, yeah, from from the start of, since I was 18, and starting to study, we had classes that involved meditation labs, where you, you study, you know, you, we had our normal seminar, where we talk about the research that we're, you know, we're let's say, We're studying, loving kindness and how loving kindness impacts, you know, clinical health that week, then, you know, we meet three times a week as well in meditation. And we we go through this practice, and we we experienced firsthand, what is the practice actually about? And again, trying to promote the critical perspective of, of academic thinking, yes, let's engage with the practice, practice, and then reflect critically on out of the claims, we're observing what really seems to be true. And so it was, it was, it's kind of just been, it's cool to recognise that this was something new. And so I'm excited to see this continue to unfold and be replicated as the field moves forward. And again, I think I wanted to begin with these points, because almost studying how the brain changes with meditation is exciting. It's cool scientific question, but it's kind of it's within the purview of, of normal science. It's, let's look at a thing and how it does this other thing. I think these are cool points, because they actually point to how this dialogue has actually been part of a paradigm shift. And this is this science is stubborn and slow moving. And so paradigm shifts are a little bit more rare. And always a little bit, you know, it happens in one field and then in another field, I don't talk about these things as much. But it's it's a it's an exciting part of what we talk about here. And I think in with with the the science of wisdom community, I think it's it's cool to share that these are unique fruits of having these conversations.