Legal Insights, Metaphysical Perspectives, and Parental Support with Construction Risk Strategist Megan Shapiro

Unlock the secrets to effective risk management in construction litigation with Megan Shapiro, an attorney with nearly 15 years of experience in the field. Megan shares invaluable insights on how to leverage past litigation to refine future practices, emphasizing the crucial role of documentation in dispute avoidance and litigation preparedness. For anyone navigating the labyrinthine world of construction law, her practical advice and expert knowledge are indispensable.

But Megan is not just about legalities – she brings a fascinating blend of passions to the table, integrating her interest in astrology and crystals with her professional life. Listen as she humorously recounts her "holiday blindness" and discusses how strategic thinking in law complements her metaphysical pursuits. This episode offers a unique perspective on how seemingly unrelated interests can enrich one's professional and personal life.

We also take a stroll down memory lane, reflecting on the importance of parental support in shaping a successful legal career. Megan fondly remembers her parents' involvement in her mock trials and debate tournaments, underscoring the sacrifices they made. From discussing the emotional toll of legal battles to the critical importance of establishing an LLC for sole proprietors, this episode is packed with heartfelt stories and actionable strategies that resonate deeply with anyone involved in or considering a career in construction law.

Get in touch with Megan:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/constructionriskstrategist/
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Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:00

Listen I love suing insurance carriers because of how much they screw over their own clients. It's ridiculous.

Speaker 1: 0:07

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 0:07

So I get real mad when people are like, oh, risk is insurance, you must be in insurance. I'm like I am absolutely not so, because my whole approach you nailed it on the head. I've been litigating for almost 15 years now and I'm sitting here going like, especially with my long-term clients. I've been with you long enough. Now, if we start learning some of these lessons and applying them on the front end, we can avoid litigation altogether. Or because you can't always avoid litigation in construction, we all know that.

Speaker 2: 0:36

When we end up in litigation, we'll be in a better position. We'll have all the documentation we need. So 100%, my entire system, my framework, aim for higher profits it all comes from. It is informed by the lessons I have learned from litigating this shit on the back end for 15 years.

Speaker 1: 0:55

What is going on? L&m family members. I have a super, super awesome guest today. A super, super awesome guest today, miss Megan Shapiro Esquire, which I like to say that because it sounds extra, extra fancy. If you're like out there in the world and could benefit from a better understanding about managing your risk, specifically in the construction space, megan is your human being. She is the risk expert so much and she's so generous Like she lets me use risk in my post without. What do they call those things? Without? I don't get any call to court for stealing her word there. I don't know if that's really her word, but Megan's awesome. You're going to get to know her. She got a whole lot going on. She's got an online course. She's a practicing attorney in California.

Speaker 1: 1:44

I've heard some of your live streams, megan talking about trades, and I was like, oh damn, like you really have a deep, deep understanding or maybe interaction with trade professionals and their side, their experience with litigation as it relates to law, and so we're going to get to learn about her path to success, because she has the silver bullet, the one answer to have enormous success in your life, and we're about to hear that. But before we get to hear, ms Megan, we want to do the L&M shout out. So I'm going to shout out my old buddy, good friend, super awesome leader out there in the construction industry, mr Buddy Brumley. Buddy took the time to leave this review. Buddy says follow Jesse as he brings the truth of mistakes made several times and the cost of being a slow learner at some things. Yes, that's me. The good, the bad and the ugly, as he puts it, the learnings and missteps. This book will have you wanting to fuss at him, cry with him and cheer for him. It's going to help a lot of people, and so that was the review my buddy Buddy left on becoming the promise you are intended to be.

Speaker 1: 3:00

Buddy, thank you for taking the time to do that and for everybody else out there, when you get a chance, you leave a comment, a thumbs up, a star or whatever. Like all those things, I love reading the comments. They mean a lot to me and it gives me an excuse to celebrate you on one of the podcasts in the future. And so that's enough about that. Let's talk to miss megan. Miss megan, how in the world are you today?

Speaker 2: 3:24

I am wonderful, wonderful. It's Friday, right before a three-day weekend. It doesn't get much better than that.

Speaker 1: 3:31

Girl, you know. So I'm holiday blind. I forget about holidays, I don't account for holidays at all, and over and over I need to get better, I need to find a system. But over and over again I get in trouble with like clients because I'll schedule a call or a session on a holiday. And I did it again. I said, okay, well, why don't we meet Monday? Like like Jesse, it's, it's a holiday, and I swear I'm like it's me. There's no holidays in May.

Speaker 2: 4:00

There's like Memorial Day, dumbed down Like oh yeah, okay, my bad, yeah, I kept doing the same thing for, for whatever reason, this Memorial Day was like I had a complete blind spot and I also kept trying to schedule things. And so you you can't see it on my cat I have a big wall size calendar behind me. You can't see May. But I finally had to put like a big X over the day because I kept trying to schedule stuff and people were like no, no.

Speaker 1: 4:26

No, Megan, we don't want to do that.

Speaker 2: 4:28

We don't want. You might want to work, we don't.

Speaker 1: 4:33

That's so awesome. All right, so you are an attorney. That's no small thing, and I don't want to get hyper anchored on that yet. What I really think the L&M family wants to know is, like what are the juicy, awesome, magical things that they need to know about you?

Speaker 2: 4:53

Ooh, well, I would say first of all, I am genuinely super passionate about risk management. It is genuine, it's not like a marketing ploy or some business strategy. I had a call earlier today with somebody who was like everybody's in this space, you have a lot of competitors. And I was like do I, though? Do I really have a lot of competitors? Are they really actually passionate about proactive risk management for construction companies? I'm not sure I buy that. So that's one thing. It is truly, genuinely a passion project for me. So that's a big thing.

Speaker 2: 5:31

I like to say that I fell into construction law and then I fell in love with construction law. And then I literally fell in love because I met my husband, who is a currently he is a mechanical superintendent, but he used to work for one of my clients, which is how we met. So we have a construction love story, which is kind of fun. And let's see one other fun fact, unrelated I am super into I don't share this with many people, but Jesse does already know this I'm super into very woo things. I'm like, big into astrology. I'm big. I'm wearing a lot of crystals today. I'm like, big into astrology, I'm big. I'm wearing a lot of crystals today. I'm very big into crystals. I love human design. I'm super into sort of like the woo side of things and I don't talk about it much because it doesn't really mesh with construction. But you asked me for fun facts. I am who I am.

Speaker 1: 6:19

Thank you for that Cause you know I'm going to get nosy about it. So here's I'll tell you in my head, like I know you have an open mind, but now you're talking crystals. I'm like, oh, that's really interesting. In my head there's a clash between the thinking style I'll say style to practice law and crystals. Now we're not just talking crystals here, right? We're talking a whole bunch of other stuff. How do you reconcile that?

Speaker 2: 6:54

Yeah. So I think in two ways. One, I think I somewhat disagree with your premise that law is very opposite of the sort of metaphysical space. Okay, law is very much an art. It really is. I mean, like they call it practicing law for a reason. Right, we are practicing every day. There are certain fundamental black letter, laws, rules, all of the things that we have to play by.

Speaker 2: 7:25

But to me, the thing I love the most about being a construction attorney is in the strategy. It really is in, like working with my clients to strategize, and strategy is all art, right, like there's no playbook for strategy, and so I don't see a disconnect there. But also, my second reason is why not hedge my bets? I mean I don't know, right, I mean I don't know what's I haven't you know. I don't know what's after this life, I don't know what's beyond, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 7:57

So it would be very arrogant of me to pretend that I've got those answers and to just be like I'm going to take this one path. I have to just go with what feels aligned for me. And I have been like I've been a woo girl since I was a little kid, like, really, yeah, when I like, when my parents would take me to like Barnes and Noble when I was like a kid, I would immediately like make a beeline for, like, the tarot card section, the witch. Like I was. Like I've been like this since I was a little kid, way before I was a lawyer, even though I always knew I wanted to be a lawyer. So they always were like I've always had both of those things in me since I was little, and so to me it doesn't feel anachronistic. I guess is really what it comes down to, because, like, I've always wanted to be a lawyer, I've always been interested in the woo side of things, and so there's no contradiction for me.

Speaker 1: 8:50

I feel it. I feel it a hundred percent because it's similarly. I'm I mean, my work is process improvement technically right, that's the job, that's what I get paid to do. But everything I talk about is about people and relationships and vulnerability, and people like, well, that that doesn't. I was like, well, absolutely it does. And similar, like kind of very, very similar. I love that you said like I want to hedge my bets, because I was talking to somebody the other day and when I said it I could see like, oh, that didn't land well with them. Well, we're talking about social media and what are like primarily, I post on LinkedIn and I also post on TikTok and Facebook and Instagram and they're like TikTok, like why TikTok? And I'm like, well, it's kind of like praying, like it's not going to hurt anything, and then why not? And in the moment, to me it was a perfectly logical association.

Speaker 2: 9:40

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:41

Except that it undermines people's faith and religion.

Speaker 2: 9:46

Oh, I guess it does technically. I didn't take it that way either. I think we're we're more on the same wavelength on that. I didn't take it that way why did I mean it that way? When I made that comparison.

Speaker 1: 9:57

Right, right, no, totally. But again, you know, people, people have certain attachments and I try to, when I rewind, play the replay. Rather, I don't necessarily realize what I've said until I see the reaction on somebody's face and I'm like, oh, I said something dumb, let me, let me, let me edit that now. So, okay, you mentioned since you're a young lady woo, woo and law. You knew, where did that? Where do you think that came?

Speaker 2: 10:30

from the law part or the woo woo part.

Speaker 1: 10:32

Let's start with the law and then the woo woo.

Speaker 2: 10:35

You know, I'm not sure I really, because it's like I remember when I was in kindergarten I wanted to be a geologist. Randomly, I had like a rock tumbler. Remember rock tumblers?

Speaker 1: 10:45

They were very popular in the 80s.

Speaker 2: 10:47

And maybe that's why I like crystals so much now, right, I don't know. And then I had a brief stint, in like first grade, of wanting to be a teacher, which is consistent with now how I also teach we didn't talk about that, but I do teach as well. And then it was law and I don't even remember, like when or how people ask me that all the time and I'm like I wanted to be a lawyer for so long. I don't even remember my own origin story.

Speaker 2: 11:10

Wow I don't, I don't know. And then by the time I got to high school, when it was like really sort of like you can really be active in doing actually let me back up. Even in middle school we had a speech team. We didn't have debate in middle school, but we did have a speech team, a class, and I joined that. And then, but then when I got to high school I was like, oh, I'm going to do debate. And then we had mock. We finally got mock trial at my very tiny little school, I think my junior or senior year. So I did that then. And then I was like, okay, I mean like it was just always the path. I mean I went straight from high school to college. I went straight from college to law school. When I graduated law school I decided to get yet another degree in trial advocacy. So it was just always I don't know, because it was just always the thing. I never had that struggle of like what do I want to do with my life? I was very blessed in some ways.

Speaker 1: 11:59

That's, that's a bit I mean. Well, I always knew what I wanted to do with my life, and it was three options it was bullfighter, clown or teacher.

Speaker 2: 12:09

Yeah, I can see that those three choices, they make complete sense together. Yeah, I'm with you.

Speaker 1: 12:14

I just haven't got there yet. I'm still working on it. Okay, so WooWoo came from the magic Tumblr. When you were coming up, say, middle school, high school time. How did you build your knowledge base in the woo woo area? Was books like friends, I imagine? Like social network was probably a small part of it.

Speaker 2: 12:40

No, I'm probably older than you think I am. Like Facebook came out when I was a junior or senior in height and college sorry, in college.

Speaker 1: 12:48

Ah, okay so.

Speaker 2: 12:50

I was one of the lucky people I think lucky that I didn't have social media when I was like a teenager, in those like formative years where you don't want documented history forever of what you did Right. I'm lucky I didn't have that Right, which which means I also didn't have the weird pressure that goes along with it and all of the downsides of social media. I didn't have that, thank God. So that hadn't that had zero influence. Like we had AOL, like right, so we had AOL instant messenger and like chat rooms.

Speaker 2: 13:16

So that was like, I guess, like the very beginning tiptoeing into social media, but it was still within your control. You had to be sitting at your computer. We didn't have smartphones, none of that stuff, so none of that was an influence. I went to Barnes and Noble a lot Like. I've always loved books, I've always loved reading. My parents always fostered that in me, so I'd go to the, we would go to our town library. I was like.

Speaker 2: 13:37

I grew up in a very small town in Southwest Missouri so I could ride my bike to the library in the summers. I was a free range kid, like most of us were. I'm like free range kid. I was, yeah, like it was. We were just like summertime. Kester stayed home alone this week this summer. Guys, I don't know what to tell. We didn't do summer camps, we didn't do all that. I was a free range kid so I would ride my bike up to the library. I had my own library card and then, you know, when I was lucky and on the weekends, my parents would take me to Barnes and Noble a lot and I would just beeline it for that section. And so, yeah, a lot of it came from books, mostly actual literal books. If you can believe it, we still I still have literal books.

Speaker 1: 14:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's so cool. So you mentioned your parents and I, you know, I know we're of the age and I think the L and M family out there is largely of the age of they have kids or they're on the verge of having kids. What role like, what was the support like from your parents on these two avenues? Law and woo, woo.

Speaker 2: 14:33

Okay, so I was raised Irish Catholic, so I would say not much support on the woo woo side, but not any condemnation either. It was just sort of like I don't even really know if my parents really I mean like I have like a Ouija board and I bought tarot decks and stuff like that, but I think they were just like whatever Cause I was always a good student, I was a good kid and I was a good student, I wasn't getting into trouble, I was getting good grades. So I think my parents kind of had a little bit of like a laissez-faire attitude of like, as long as she's doing what she's supposed to be doing, then like, let her interests be what they are. So in that way I guess it kind of was supportive, right. It was like. And then on the law side, they were incredibly supportive, like.

Speaker 2: 15:13

I remember when I would so when we would do mock trial and speech and debate tournaments in high school. Those were oftentimes that well, they were always on the weekends, right, because in high school you can't interfere with your class time, so they'd be on the weekends and so we'd we would take a bus with our whole team and our coach and we'd, you know, drive three or four hours away to whatever school was hosting the tournament and my dad would come a lot of the times. He would like drive wherever we were going, yeah. And then when I got to college I started doing intercollegiate competitive mock trial and my team was very good. We went to nationals several times and we competed all across the country and my dad would take off work. He would literally take days off of work so he could travel and come and be and sit in my little mock trials. I say little because now I do real trials right. So I'm like, oh, that's so cute, but back then it was my whole world right.

Speaker 2: 16:04

And I have one memory I bet they still have this video I had gone to a really exciting speech and debate tournament over the weekend and it was one of the rare out of town ones. This was high school and it was out of town. So we had like stayed in a hotel as high schoolers with, like our coach and stuff and it was like a big deal, right. So I remember I came home that Sunday and I used to have this like debate box because, again, this was like the late 90s, very early 2000s. I graduated high school in 2002. So everything was still paper. We didn't do anything, I didn't. No laptops, no iPads, we didn't do anything electronically, right. So I had this like file, like this file plastic file box. I'm sure you've seen what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1: 16:42

Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about.

Speaker 2: 16:44

Yeah, it had like its little handle I had decorated it with. Like I was a huge Hanson fan, If you remember the Hanson band.

Speaker 2: 16:51

So I decorated it with all my stuff and it had all of our. I had a partner on, I did, I did team debate. So I had a partner. We were best friends and we were partners for all four years of high school. So we had all of our stuff for the, for the topic for the year in this debate box and I was an avid note taker color coded notes, no wonder. I went to law school and so I got home from that tournament and we had done really well and I was amped up and I was so excited and I like got my box and I sat down in the living room floor and my parents had like a camcorder Remember those with like the bit, oh yeah like a camcorder, with like a tape and they recorded me, like they recorded the conversation where I was like excitedly telling them about every scene.

Speaker 2: 17:34

I mean I, my poor parents, I literally had my notebook out and I went through every note from four rounds of a debate tournament and they recorded the whole thing and they were actively involved and super engaged and asking questions and so I was very, very lucky. My parents were incredibly and continue to be. I should not be using the past tense at all. My parents are incredibly supportive. My mom actually flew out to California from the Midwest to be here when I got sworn in as an attorney. So after I passed the bar, you have to get sworn in, you take the oath in front of a judge, and my mom flew out to California to be here for that. So my parents have always been incredibly supportive, incredibly supportive.

Speaker 1: 18:16

That is. That's amazing. I bet there's a lot of memories there, a lot of good times. You know, it makes me think. A buddy of mine we were having a conversation he was talking about one of his kids is playing some sport I can't remember which one it was, but it wasn't like a traditional sport and he's like you know I want to support him but it's the stupidest sport in the world. Like I don't understand it. I go to the thing but man, it's like it's painful for me and I never, ever considered that.

Speaker 1: 18:46

You know my mom, she was super supportive, baseball specifically. She worked a lot. She had two single mom, right, but she was pretty present. It never occurred to me that she would be showing up for something purely for my sake. And then if you zoom out, you think about all the parents in the world, like how many of them are going, you know, driving, hustling people around town and all the things to be at something that they really don't care about except the fact that their kid is there. Like that's, that's a huge sacrifice. I was never aware of it until just recently. Now you mentioned that, like high school, you're a good student in high school, so I get the feeling that middle school and high school, the pace of that rigor and workload was too slow for you. Am I off?

Speaker 2: 19:35

No, you're not off, you're spot on. In fact, this would probably come as no surprise to you. My senior year of high school, our school decided to try to like level up again small town, southwest Missouri. So they decided that they were going to make some changes to the academic programming to try to level up, and so they decided that they were going to basically do the equivalent of like almost like a master's thesis. So if you wanted to be able to graduate with honors your senior year, outside of being a part of the National Honor Society, then you had to take this advanced English course, which I was taking anyway, and you had to write a 20-page research paper. Then you had to do a presentation to a panel of three of the teachers.

Speaker 2: 20:17

So they were trying to really mimic this. So I took the class. I wrote the paper. It was about Henry VIII and his wives. By the way, it was a very interesting paper. I learned a lot. I love that paper. But I was like I was so offended at the idea that they were creating what felt to me at the time to be like just busy, like you're just like. There's no value to us, the students, for this. You're just trying to make this seem like a bigger deal than it is.

Speaker 1: 20:43

Yes.

Speaker 2: 20:44

So I refused to do that part of it, even though I was doing all the other. I did all the other stuff but I was like, on principle alone, I am not going to graduate with honors Like my GPA. I was still part of the National Honor Society, so I still had the sash, but like I did not have that one little distinction because I was like I'm not doing, I'm not jumping through hoops that don't make any sense just for the sake of jumping through hoops, I'm not doing it. So yes, you're spot on.

Speaker 1: 21:12

I can totally appreciate that, because there have been many points in my, we'll say, academic career that ended in high school where I really I was like no, like homework. I didn't do homework because to me homework is practice and if I understand this thing that they talked about, why would I practice? And it wasn't going fast. Anyways, my grades were not great. Clearly I didn't go to law school, no doubt there. I think that's pretty obvious for folks. So for any younglings out there, or even parents of younglings, what pointers do you have for those people that have people in their lives that want to go down this study of law? What should they be thinking about considering for middle schoolers and high schoolers?

Speaker 2: 22:03

Oh, so let me just clarify. Are you asking what the middle schoolers and high schoolers should be considering or what the parents should be considering?

Speaker 1: 22:11

Both.

Speaker 2: 22:12

Okay, the middle schoolers and high schoolers should be not considering it. And by that what I mean is I'm not saying don't go to. I'm not saying don't go to law school, don't be a lawyer. I'm not saying that because I got that advice a lot and I always hate I roll. I would always roll my eyes and I'm like I know what I want to do with my life. You're just not listening to me. As a kid, it feels dismissive to be told don't do that, don't think that. Right, it's like I'm the adult I know better than you. Fuck you, no. So.

Speaker 2: 22:40

So my advice to middle schoolers and high schoolers is like do you continue to do the things that you find interesting. Explore the different things. I was in the high school. Play my senior year. For example, I was like the laughing lady in Death of a Salesman. Do you be happy? Explore the things you want to explore. If that's the career path you're interested in, great. But like, there's not really much you need to be doing in middle school and high school for that. Just know that you need to. You're going to be in school for a long time. I was in school for 27 years, yeah, yeah, but I, but I, but I just want them to do them and find the things that make them happy and what they're passionate about.

Speaker 2: 23:17

Parents, I would say do your homework about what it's going to entail and maybe have the conversations. Start the conversations with your kids, because I think more and more I mean everybody. We talk all the time about the student loan crisis and all of that stuff, and it's at this point. Unless you're independently wealthy, you're going to have to take out student loans to go to law school, because you're now talking about four years of an undergraduate degree, first followed by three years of law school, and so, again, unless you're independently wealthy, that means student loans, and so, from a parent standpoint, you need to start looking at what that looks like. I mean, I graduated law school in 2009.

Speaker 2: 23:59

I've been making student loan payments that whole time. I owe $100,000 more than I borrowed. At this point, after having been paying my loans, it's a broken system, and if I looked at it from a pure financial standpoint, then I would be saying do not go to law school. I owe $335,000 in loans right now. Yeah, I'll never pay it off. I will never be able to pay it all off. I make my payments every month, I'll never be able to pay it off. I'll just have to reach that point where I've paid 25 years of payments and then the government forgives it and I have to pay taxes on the forgiven amount. So it just is what it is. So if I was looking at it from a pure number standpoint, I would be like don't do it, unless you're going to go into big law and you know you're going to make a salary that is so high that you'll be able to quickly pay off your loans. Don't do it. But that's not helpful advice to kids. But it could be helpful advice for parents.

Speaker 2: 24:53

Parents can understand those processes and those issues and can start figuring out on their end what role they want to play, what guidance they want to offer If they have a kid like me. That's like I'm doing it, no matter what, I don't give a shit. My prefrontal cortex isn't developed enough to understand the long-term consequences of this choice that I'm making, so I'm going to do what I want to do, right? So, like starting to figure out, figure out how you can best guide your, guide your kids if they're on that path, and just support them the best way that you can.

Speaker 1: 26:21

Oh, I think that's the freaking amazing advice. Because, yes, like it's, I think for some I'll say it this way to whatever that is is when the student is allowed to explore their curiosities, the outcomes in terms of, like, low trauma, low baggage, low resentment, like sense of fulfillment and contribution or quality of life, is way higher than the opposite. And so, phenomenal advice, megan, awesome, and that's free. Y'all, that's free. She just gave that to us. So listen to Megan, because Megan knows All right. So, middle school, high school, went to university kick butt national competitions, kick butt national competitions. So you were in law and, like, law is not a small thing, it's a big, giant thing. And you decided what was, what's the? What are the connection points between I want to be a lawyer to focusing on construction and litigation and the things that you're into now?

Speaker 2: 27:27

Yeah. So I always knew that I want to do litigation, because litigation is the courtroom. That's the courtroom side, like, litigation is basically the word that you use to describe lawsuits that go to trial that aren't criminal. Right, everybody knows criminal because that's what's on TV and movies and that's you know what we. It's more interesting, so that's what they show us entertainment wise. But litigation is just the non-criminal side of that. So I did originally start out in criminal law. I don't think you actually know this about me, jesse. I did start out in criminal law. I first started doing we had a clinic at my law school that allowed law students, under the supervision of our instructors, who were also licensed attorneys, to actually practice, and so I did a clinic where I represented people who had been released on parole, were accused of violating their parole, and so now they were facing revocation to be sent back to jail. And I do say jail on purpose, because it was the maximum return to custody time was one year. So that's a jail time, not as a prison time.

Speaker 1: 28:22

Not prison, yep yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:23

And so at the time this was like 2008-ish at the time in California the state appointed attorneys to those people to represent them. They were in it was like a public defender, but we were a separate body. Okay, it was a separate entity that was that provided those attorneys, but they were provided as a matter of right by the state, and so I was able to do that and I got to do like four real hearings with real clients and represent them at the parole revocation hearings, and so I loved it. It was great. So then when I graduated law school, I started doing that as one of the paid panel attorneys representing those parolees. But meanwhile I took a little bit of a deviation and this is where I paused to think what came first.

Speaker 2: 29:02

In my third year of law school, I did that clinic. My second year, in my third year of law school, I actually worked for the Sacramento County District Attorney's Office in the traffic court division, because the really cool thing I don't know if they still do this, but at the time they would let so we could be we could become what's called certified law students, which meant that we could actually do trials by ourselves, be the attorney in the trial and in traffic court at the time they were just like here are your cases go. So I got to try all by myself, like a hundred trials and I had like an 85% conviction rate. I was like it was crazy because it was traffic court, but it was awesome because I got used to like being in front of a judge, talking to a judge, negotiating with opposing attorneys. It was really great. It was an awesome experience.

Speaker 2: 29:48

But that was 2008, 2009. We all remember what the economy did. All of the county offices went on hiring freezes. So I didn't have a choice to leave criminal. It wasn't an active decision. It was like none of the PPs are hiring and none of the DAs are hiring.

Speaker 2: 30:03

So I got very lucky that I found a solo practitioner who was doing civil litigation, who was looking to hire somebody, and I started working for him while I got that extra degree I mentioned earlier. So, even though I graduated law school, I decided to get an advanced degree, a master of laws and trial advocacy at Temple University, which is in Philadelphia, even though I lived in California. So I was flying cross country once a month doing mock trials every weekend and working back here for him. But because of the law at the time I was still able to represent parolees, so I was working for him, I was representing parolees as a paid attorney and then I was getting that extra degree flying back and forth to Philly so that, all wrapped up, the law in California literally changed. The voters decided that parolees did not deserve to have an attorney appointed to them at those types of hearings, not really common on that.

Speaker 2: 30:57

It is what it is. They drafted the language on the ballot in a very, in my opinion, deceiving and misleading way. They called it a victim's rights bill, which had literally no impact on victims at all. That's a whole other conversation I won't get on that path. You and I might have that conversation later, but we don't need to talk about that now.

Speaker 2: 31:15

So the law changed so they were no longer providing attorneys to represent parolees at parole hearings. So then I was doing the civil litigation full time. That particular attorney, he saw his practice starting to kind of slow down and he was wonderful in that he said to me you should start looking for another job. Like so, like I'll keep employing you for as long as I can, but like go start looking, because I don't want to end up in a situation where I literally can't pay you anymore and you don't have any other options, which I very much appreciated.

Speaker 1: 31:43

Yes.

Speaker 2: 31:44

Very rare, and so I started interviewing at civil law firms because we still had hiring freezes in the criminal side. I started interviewing at civil law firms because we still had hiring freezes in the criminal side and I took my interview at my firm that I'm at now back in 2012 now, and I remember I looked at their website at the time and their website had a ton of typos on it and I am like a very big grammar person and so I was like I was so full of myself. I was like I'm going to take the interview because I want the rep, but I am not going to work for this firm if they can't even have a typo free website. Okay, so like I came in all cocky like whatever, and my partner now, frank, he's the one who started the firm back in 1995. He had just come off of a huge trial, like literally. When I say just come off of, I mean days.

Speaker 2: 32:30

So yeah, so like the application process had been going on behind the scenes. He wasn't involved at all because he was doing this trial and they set my interview. It was like his first or second day back in the office after the trial and he was like, oh, we got an interview today. I'm going to do it, I'm going to take this interview.

Speaker 1: 32:44

Give me your info.

Speaker 2: 32:45

I'm going to do it. So he comes in and Frank has a very unique and brash personality and, like me, people love him or hate him. Right, he's very polarizing. I tend to have that effect on people too. So he and I hit it off immediately in the interview, like immediately, and so I was like, oh man, I'm going to definitely end up having to take this job. So the rest is history. I came to the firm to get to your question about construction. Sorry for being so long-winded. No, it's perfect.

Speaker 1: 33:13

Yeah, it's good.

Speaker 2: 33:24

So when I started at the firm, they had a small construction practice much smaller than it is now representing a handful of subcontractors that they had represented for years and years and years. They had a defect litigation portfolio and the attorneys in the firm all hated it. They thought it was like a monkey could do it. They didn't respect it. They were like it's so easy. So they had a habit of like just pushing it to the newest attorney in the firm. They were like this will be good training for you because it's like so easy, anybody can do it.

Speaker 1: 33:45

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:46

I'd been. I'd been an attorney for about two years at this point. So, as a new girl in, they were like here you go, this is your thing. I got super lucky because the main client at the time, a concrete client hired a new GM like literally within a month of me starting.

Speaker 2: 34:01

So he starts and he's looking at their P&L and he's like you know, we're spending a lot on legal. I want to personally dig into this and figure out what's going on here. So he came in at the same time. I came in, we hit it off and we both were like let's take ownership of this shit, let's decrease your bill. I should be quiet as I say this. I was like let's figure out a way for you not to have to pay my firm this much money.

Speaker 1: 34:26

Right right right Right.

Speaker 2: 34:44

And so I discovered through that relationship that, like I actually love concrete, right right right Love Concrete, love that client, love the process. So he and I together sort of created our own approach, our own system, how we wanted to tackle this huge construction defect litigation portfolio, and I went to the partners at the time as a little baby lawyer. I went to the partners at the time and I said you know what I love this, I want to take ownership of this. This no longer has to be the sort of like red headed stepchild that gets passed down to new attorneys Like I want to own it.

Speaker 2: 35:16

I'm taking ownership. It's mine because it's actually really complicated and nuanced. If you take the time to dig in there's so much room for strategy in the world of construction law.

Speaker 2: 35:26

So much room for strategy If you just take the time to, to learn that right, to realize, if you pay enough attention to it to really realize it's awesome right. So they were like, okay, go for it. So then fast forward. I built up the practice and now 95% of my day-to-day is construction litigation mostly subcontractors, some owners, some GCs, but I always say subs, have my heart because that's where I started and the rest is history. I mean, I still represent that same concrete sub. That GM is still there. My practice has grown. I'm very, very proud to be able to say that the bulk of my client portfolio are long-term client relationships that I've had for a decade or more. At this point, because that's the approach that I take to my relationships with my clients I want to build a relationship I don't want to have. I don't like to have cases, I like to have clients.

Speaker 1: 36:24

Yes, yes, I love it. And to reinforce what you said at the beginning of the conversation, like your passion absolutely is coming through and and I feel you, sister, and people, y'all need to know like this level of energy doesn't come for stuff that people don't give a shit about, you care. So it's like this reinforcing thing you get something out of it, you put more into it, the energy keeps coming. I've got two questions. One is ultra, ultra important. Did you fix the typos on the website?

Speaker 2: 37:01

Yes, in fact, just this last year actually, I think it was last year within the last two years, I actually have graduated. Now. I'm now a name partner. My name is on the wall. I own part of the firm. The remaining partners are gone. We have new partners. Frank and I have new partners now, but it's primarily me and him. We're the two equity partners and I told him a couple of years ago I'm owning the website. So I actually designed our current version of our website. I'm working with a marketing team. I've got a call with them later today. Actually we're in the process of redoing it. But yes, I designed the current version of our website and wrote all the copy myself. So, yes, the typos are gone.

Speaker 1: 37:39

Awesome, so I'm going to. I'll make sure to post the link in the show notes and, folks, if there's any typos, you know who to contact.

Speaker 2: 37:46

Yeah, give it to me. Give it to me, I'll take it. I'll eat crow.

Speaker 1: 37:51

So the second question I have I'm trying to in my head, I'm trying to figure out like sequencing, because I think when, when I've been involved or enthralled myself into things, new things surface right Like another layer, another new ones, like oh, oh, and I kind of chased that. And when people look at it from current state, it appears as if I've always been focused on this one thing, kind of like I mentioned earlier. Right, people focus, that's all I talk about. That's not where I started, right, I started process and eventually discovered that well, there's like people are really important, because without the people, processes don't work. And so, as that relates to what I've heard from you so far, you started off in litigation and now what I, a lot of the messaging I hear from you is around risk management. And am I wrong in thinking the techniques, the strategy, the tactics on how you serve people in terms of mitigating risk came from litigating stuff and saying, oh, there's a trip hazard, oh, there's another trip hazard.

Speaker 2: 39:01

Yeah, A hundred percent, and I mean. This is why, when people start asking me like what do you mean when you talk about risk management in construction, the very first thing I say is like okay, most people when they hear risk in construction, they're usually hearing about it from somebody in the insurance space.

Speaker 2: 39:18

It's usually brokers, it's usually captives. It's usually carriers that are doing these like quote unquote risk management trainings because they're trying to reduce claims. It's all motivated by, like the multi-billion dollar insurance conglomerate trying to save a few bucks on your claim. Sorry, fuck that, like I don't. It's not. Insurance is an important part of a proactive risk management strategy. It's an important piece of the puzzle. It's one small piece and it's reactive by nature. Right, because you're only dealing with insurance once you have a problem. It's react. So insurance pisses me off. I've sued a lot of insurance carriers. I'm sorry, you want to talk about passion.

Speaker 2: 39:56

Get me going on insurance okay, that's the one I love suing insurance carriers because of how much they screw over their own clients. It's ridiculous. So I get real mad when people are like, oh, risk is insurance, you must be in insurance. I'm like I am absolutely not Right. So because my whole approach you nailed it on the front end we can avoid litigation altogether. Or because you can't always avoid litigation in construction, we all know that when we end up in litigation we'll be in a better position. We'll have all the documentation we need. So, 100%, my entire system, my framework, aim for Higher Profits. It all comes from, it is informed by the lessons I have learned from litigating this shit on the back end for 15 years. Let's be strategic guys. Let's talk about this stuff in the beginning.

Speaker 2: 41:00

And not from an insurance standpoint. I have zero interest in saving AIG 50 grand. Zero interest in that. Give the policy benefits to the people who are paying their premiums. It's not that difficult, oh my God.

Speaker 1: 41:18

I love it. I'm with you. I'm with you. So here's a thought I wonder is there a level of resistance? What are the similarities or differences? Whichever makes the most sense for you in terms of when you're talking to a current client about risk mitigation and a prospect about risk mitigation, what do you see any similarities or differences into? How they receive that and how open they are to it?

Speaker 2: 41:46

A hundred percent. I think for two reasons. Of course, my, my current clients are going to be way more receptive to it, and I think for two reasons. Right One, we have a trusting relation. They trust me, they trust me with their business at this point. I mean, I just had you were there, Jesse I just had my own live stream a couple of days ago where I actually had one of my law firm clients on and she told a really powerful story. They had a lawsuit that was literally potentially catastrophic for the company and it was all on my shoulders and I got them through it. And I'm not saying that to like pat myself on the back. I'm saying that because when I then go to them and I say, hey guys, I think we should try this thing on the front end there they don't even have to question, they don't even have to pause.

Speaker 2: 42:24

They're like okay let's do it Right, cause I've already like I already have that trust with them. I've already proven myself with them, so I think that's one reason. The other reason is because my clients all came to me as a result of being involved in litigation, so they already had that worst case scenario happen, and then we bring the relationship up.

Speaker 2: 42:43

That allows us to be proactive, right, but they've already experienced a worst case, whereas if I'm talking to a prospective new client, first of all they don't know me and trust me, and I don't blame them for that. There are a lot of people out there that are pushing magic bullets to increase profits and there's nothing behind it. There really isn't, and so I don't blame them for looking at me like, okay, sure you, you've got the solution. I don't blame them for that, but that's a but. That's one challenge, right. And then the other one is, if they're lucky, a lot of times they either haven't been in business long enough Usually that's why they haven't been in a situation where they have faced a catastrophic loss and so they don't understand how high the stakes can be. They have a huge blind spot to risk. They don't know what they don't know and they don't know what risk they're actually holding, especially new.

Speaker 2: 43:32

Like I've talked on LinkedIn lately about this fictional character I created called Jake the Mason. Right, and it's like such a because it resonated with so many people, because it's such a common story, right, like Jake the Mason was a great Mason. He started taking work on the side on the weekends because he was so good at what he did. He brought his buddies in to help because he kept getting more and more side work. He finally is like I'm just going to start my own masonry business because I'm a great mason. That's wonderful, but Jake doesn't know how to run a business. And Jake is now out there operating as a sole proprietor. I will have a heart attack. Jake doesn't know that his house is on the line, that his car is on the line that his wife's car is on the line.

Speaker 2: 44:08

They don't know what they don't know, and so, because they don't realize how risky they are actually being, they don't see the value in investing on the front end and being proactive about it.

Speaker 1: 44:18

And so, by on the line for clarity, I think the way that translates to me is, if a client were to go after them for damages, they could get access to all of their personal assets.

Speaker 2: 44:33

Exactly so. When you're operating as a sole proprietor, that means that you don't have any legal protection. There's no difference between you and your business. Even if you have a business license, even if you have insurance, there's no legal protection there. That's why an LLC, a limited liability corporation, is like the bare minimum you need to do. That is your barrier. That is your protection of your personal assets versus the assets of the business.

Speaker 2: 44:59

And if you I don't care if you've got separate bank accounts, I don't care if you're operating like you are an LLC. If you do not have that corporate formation in place, if you face a catastrophic loss that either exceeds your policy limits or God forbid is an uncovered claim, meaning you don't have any insurance for the claim, they can go beyond just your business bank account into your personal bank account where you buy groceries. If you don't have enough money in your bank account to satisfy a judgment, they can put a lien on your home. Like I get real passionate about this one because I'm so scared for these construction guys who are operating as sole proprietors and think it's not worth their time, energy, effort or money to take that extra step. And it's so easy and it's not expensive at all.

Speaker 2: 45:47

California is probably one of I'm sure it's one of the more expensive places to do it, because we're more expensive at everything and even here it's really like California is probably one of I'm sure it's one of the more expensive places to do it, because we're more expensive at everything and even here it's only $800 a year to be to have an LLC. Like, why would you not do that? And they won't. They don't do it because they don't know what they don't know.

Speaker 1: 46:00

Right, right, a lot. Well, hopefully, folks L&M family out there, what you just heard, and I promise I'm probably, I promise I'm probably I'm going to clip that to help people understand because it's real. You probably can guess this, megan, but I'm a pretty risk tolerant person. No, probably riskier than I should be, but it doesn't until you know the pain. It's really not a thing. Right, it's a myth, it's the boogeyman.

Speaker 1: 46:30

But we are talking about your home, we are talking about your children's future here. That that's what's at risk For real. For real, that's what's at risk. It's not a matter of, well, that doesn't happen to me because I'm an excellent operator. It's really a matter of it hasn't happen to me because I'm, you know, an excellent operator. It's really a matter of it hasn't happened to you yet. Like it, the longer period I heard a story, I think I heard on a podcast. They're talking about this group of entrepreneurs and they're talking about, like, the requirements to be a part of this group and so there was a certain amount of revenue and, and you know whatever certain number of businesses they had to have started, which I'm like, oh yeah, this is all like elitism, bullshit. And then they said the other requirement was you had to have at least filed for bankruptcy once.

Speaker 2: 47:27

Wow.

Speaker 1: 47:29

And then I'm like once Wow. And then I'm like holy, okay, like that's real. Talk there, like that's real. It's not saying the goal is to be filing for bankruptcy, but the lessons you learned that drive you to bankruptcy are tremendous. And then, because of the pain, now it's for real. Yeah, Sets you up to mitigate your risk in a more responsible manner going forward. What do you think about that?

Speaker 2: 47:55

Yeah, I mean first of all. I mean like I love and hate it because it's like, okay, I I get a little bit upset about these sort of elitist organizations for entrepreneurs because I'm like, okay, but like the little guys are the ones who need it more, right, and it's like just being so exclusionary. I don't like gatekeeping, whatever, but I do love the idea of like you have to have failed, and failed catastrophically Right, because that's that's where growth happens. Right, Like we grow, we learn more. I'm a huge advocate of like Carol Dweck's you know growth mindset. Love that book, it's great, I'm all about it. So it's like that's where the learning comes in, that's where the growth comes from is like those catastrophic failures. Now, with that said, to go back a second, learn the catastrophic failure when it's your company that files for bankruptcy, not when it's you as an individual that now has to file for bankruptcy. Right, it's different, they're very, very different. Yeah, have a company that fails. Learn those lessons. Don't lose your house over it.

Speaker 1: 49:03

Girl. I got my LLC and I was like you know how many times people you're going to feel like oh God, like that's all, like this is the stupidest thing in the world. I think for the first time I feel better about it because I'm like I don't feel like, come on, I don't, I don't need to do it like I don't need to, and I think here's like for high risk tolerant people like me, I don't have to do it to start a business, so in my brain it's not necessary.

Speaker 2: 49:36

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 49:37

But if something goes wrong, it becomes really necessary or really valuable. I should say yeah.

Speaker 2: 49:46

And I want to. I want to just pause, because now you've said it twice and I want to talk about this for a second, because you've talked about your risk tolerance right and that is so key. So when I work with clients whether it's through my online course or my individual or whatever my in-person trainings, whatever it is outside of the law firm when I'm not talking about law clients, I'm talking about proactive risk management clients the first step is a risk tolerance assessment. So I have a customized risk tolerance assessment that I have created because proactive risk management strategies are not one size fits all. I don't want somebody to be deterred because they're like you and they're like I've got a high risk tolerance. I'm willing to roll the dice, I'm willing to gamble. Therefore, I don't need to even think about this stuff because I've got such a high risk tolerance.

Speaker 2: 50:30

There are still things like an LLC, like the minimum stuff that would still benefit you even with a high risk tolerance, and so that's why I love to start there, because I'm like OK, great, I can still help you in key ways, even if you have a super high risk tolerance. Or, on the other side, the flip side of that coin, I actually have a very low risk tolerance. I am a very risk averse person. The flip side of that coin I actually have a very low risk tolerance. I am a very risk averse person. My course is created for somebody like me because it's easier to scale back.

Speaker 2: 50:56

So I'm going to give you the level 100. You don't want any risk at all. Here it is, and then, as you have a higher and higher risk tolerance, you can pick and choose from the buffet of strategies about what makes the most sense for you and your specific risk tolerance.

Speaker 1: 51:11

I like that. Oh OK, so we're going to have to come back to that, because in that there's multiple ways that you serve. So you serve in your practice, you're a partner at your practice. Congratulations, because I know that ain't no small thing. Thank you. It's actually a pretty freaking monumental thing, congratulations, thank you. I know that you have an online course, I know that you teach at university and I just heard that you have like a different coaching thing that sounds like in-person risk mitigation thing. Is it only four or are there more? Am I missing other things?

Speaker 2: 51:46

One, two, three, four, five. There's five. Okay, I'm like, whew, let me think, okay, so lawyer done. We talked a lot about that. The online course is yeah, that's one.

Speaker 2: 51:57

I don't like the word coaching for myself, and here's why. Two reasons One I think it's a diluted market and I think it's really easy to dismiss somebody who says I'm a coach. Actually, three reasons, that's one. Two there are actual coach certifications out there and I don't have them. You don't have to have them, but as somebody who, like, takes obviously certifications pretty fucking seriously since I got a bar license, right, like I don't have that certification. So I feel like it's disingenuous and a little bit disrespectful to the people who took that effort and time to go get that certification. I don't have it.

Speaker 2: 52:30

But also three I feel like a lot of times in my experience, coaches really tend to focus more on mindset, and that's valuable in its own little silo, like I've had coaches before, I need help with mindset. That's great for what it is, but I don't really give a shit about mindset. I talk strategy and I don't really think that's coaching. So what I say is I do one-on-one strategies, strategy sessions. So other people might characterize that as coaching, but I call it one-on-one strategy sessions because I'm not talking to you about your mindset around risk. I'm talking to you about these are the eight areas that you are facing risk. These are the things you need to know and these are the strategies you need to implement. Let's talk about your company and your business and let's create in this session an actionable plan that you're ready to go back and implement.

Speaker 1: 53:21

Okay, so I don't like coaching to describe that it's different, I think. I love it, okay, and thank you for the clarity because, yes, yes, and I'm on the other end again on the certification thing, yeah, yeah, but I completely appreciate your perspective and I can appreciate and value certifications, but also path of least resistance If I don't need it, I ain't going to get it.

Speaker 2: 53:44

Yeah, and again, I'm not trash talking coaches, I just think that what they do is very different than what I do. I don't want paralegals saying they're lawyers because they're not. They're super important, super valuable, but they're not lawyers, they're paralegals. And then the other one is in yeah, in-person trainings. So oh, and I'm in teaching, so sorry. The four is in-person trainings.

Speaker 2: 54:05

So I come out to your job. I prefer to do it in person. I think that's where the magic happens. I mean, I'll do Zoom if that's the client's preference, but I prefer to come and be there in person at the business, dig in to the actual business. So I I take that same framework that's in my online course. It's an eight module framework. I take that same thing. I come into the business. The first day is I meet with the key stakeholders I'll call them, usually that's owners and maybe C-suite and we go through the whole system as it pertains to your company specifically, and by the end of that day we have now mapped out at the key stakeholder level what the company's new proactive risk management policies and procedures are going to be. Now we have that plan.

Speaker 2: 54:48

Day two, training two, doesn't happen the next day. This is where I think I'm maybe a little bit different. Yeah, this happens a month or so later, depending on schedule availability. I come back. But now I'm with supers, pms, foremen and maybe some key field guys, based on what the company thinks is important, and now it's the train the trainer session. So it's now me saying all right, these are the new risk management policies and procedures that your company is implementing. I'm going to train you on them. And then I'm going to train you this afternoon on how to train your field guys, because, from a proactive risk management standpoint, I'm here to tell you, the most important part of that equation is the field guys.

Speaker 1: 55:30

The field guys are hands down the most important part of a proactive risk management strategy Preach.

Speaker 2: 55:37

Yes, so there's that. And then, yes, I'm also. I teach construction law and contracts as part of the construction management program at UC Davis's Continuing Professional Education school, so I do that as well. So that's all five.

Speaker 1: 55:43

Oh, baby, so you busy and and you're active on the LinkedIn, active on social media and the juicy part. We almost completely skipped this construction love story part.

Speaker 2: 55:59

Oh yeah, we did.

Speaker 1: 56:01

You're happily married to a fellow construction worker, but he actually still works, not like me, I'm just. I'm a house cat. Now how did like what happened?

Speaker 2: 56:10

there. Yeah, so the same year that I made partner at the firm actually 2017, I was going through a divorce and I had one of my subcontractor clients who I'd had for years at that point by the way, they're one of the most proactive risk management clients I've ever had. They have invested in proactive risk management like fully invested from the beginning, and as part of that, my husband, jeremy, was working for them at the time as like a hybrid superintendent, slash PM, slash risk management guy, like he was the. He was like the fixer, so when projects would go bad, he was the one that they would send to the job, cause he's very like, charismatic and personable, so he can have those difficult conversations in a way that's not alienating Right? So they had brought me in to do a training with the key stakeholders, including all the supers, all the PMs.

Speaker 2: 56:58

But I was doing a training with them and he sort of like spotted me from the back of the room. So, fast forward, I made partner and so the owner of the company wanted to take me out to celebrate. I was like it was like a month of just like drunken debauchery because making partner right and so so they they wanted to take me out to dinner and they like roped Jeremy in because he had just. He was also divorced and had just recently gotten out of his first long-term relationship post divorce. They were together for about a year.

Speaker 1: 57:28

Okay.

Speaker 2: 57:30

And he was in what I'm going to affectionately refer to as his Tinder era at the time, and I was like I wasn't. I was just like I had just basically told my husband I'm like, I'm out, I want a divorce. This has been over for years, whatever. So I wasn't dating or anything yet. And so the client was like, hey, you know what, like Megan will be a good influence on Jeremy because she's a hell of a lot better than like what he's been doing, and Jeremy will be a good distraction for Megan, since she's like like at the beginning part of this process. So they thought we would just be like a fun distraction for each other. So they were like, hey, Jeremy, we're going to take our lawyer out to dinner to celebrate making partner. You know what? I just told this story in the wrong order. I hadn't done the training yet. I forgot this part because he didn't know who I was.

Speaker 2: 58:13

So when his boss was like we're going to go out with our lawyer, you should come, he of course, was envisioning what a lot of people who've never dealt with an attorney think of, like the old fat, white haired dude. Right, like not to be crude, but that's. I'm repeating his version of this story. So he's like okay, like felt like he couldn't say no but had zero interest in actually going to this dinner. So I get there, they were already there. I got there a few minutes late because I was coming from somebody else having taken me out for drinks to celebrate making partners. So I get there, they were already there. I got there a few minutes late because I was coming from somebody else having taken me out for drinks to celebrate making partners. So I came late and I walked in and he was like wait, what that's our lawyer, because, I mean, I was 34 back then I looked a lot better.

Speaker 2: 58:52

So he was like that's our lawyer. So we hit it off because he's a very personable guy and stayed friends. Then I came in and did the training. I found it after the fact that, like he and some of the other supers and PMs were like you got to get with Megan Right, so he was like about it before I was so fast forward a couple of months.

Speaker 2: 59:11

We were down in San Diego at a PCBC Pacific coast builders convention I think is what it stands for and I had a different client who had rented a yacht. And so they were like Megan, come out on the yacht and if you have other clients that are at the convention, bring them out on the yacht. So the client was down there and I was like hey, do you guys want to come out on the yacht? Jeremy, meanwhile, was back up in Northern California at a job site. So my client, his boss, bought him a ticket, called him and he was like hey, I know you're at this job site in San Jose. There's a ticket waiting for you at SFO. You're flying down to San Diego right now.

Speaker 2: 59:46

And Jeremy was like and he's like he's in the field. So he's like looking down, he's like my jeans are dirty, I don't have a toothbrush, Like what Just call? We'll figure it out Literally, Literally. Oh, we'll figure it out Literally, literally. So he flies down, goes out on this yacht with me and asks me out and I'm like, yeah, and I'm like such a lawyer answer. I go like I have to do some legal research first Because I didn't know he's a client.

Speaker 2: 1:00:18

He's a client and I didn't know that his boss was like orchestrating this. Nobody had like looped me in. So I'm like I didn't know he's a client and I didn't know that his boss was like orchestrating this. Nobody had like looped me in. So I'm like I don't know how my client is going to feel about that. You're in management, so there's a chance you could have your deposition taken and I would be the attorney defending you at your deposition. I don't, I don't know. I literally don't know if I can go out with you, regardless of if I want to or not. I don't know if I can.

Speaker 2: 1:00:41

So he was great and he was like okay, well, like just just know, it's an open invitation. Good for him, hell, yeah, yeah. So I literally did the legal research and he was like persistent. I was sort of just like, well, I don't know whatever. But he didn't stop. He was like kept asking, kept asking. Finally he was like you know what? What, I just want to be your friend. If you're not interested, that's fine, no pressure, I we I just want to be your friend outside of like work. And so that was where I was like, okay, I'll go on a date with you. So we went on our first date and I was like, okay, let's not tell your boss about the first date, because let's see if there's anything to even tell.

Speaker 2: 1:01:15

Right, like I know I like you, but like maybe we just don't have that chemistry. It it was like the most amazing first date ever. It was like out of a movie. It was like love at first sight or love at first date. We have not been apart since. He immediately like deleted his like all of his dating apps, ended every like conversation that he was having with every other girl from like literally that night. We got married on the anniversary of our first date because it was literally like we were never. We were never apart. We now have a child, we have a son together, and it was.

Speaker 2: 1:01:46

It was really interesting because we both said when we started dating, like hey, I don't want to get married again. Like both of us were like we don't want to get married again. He already. He has a son from his prior marriage, who's wonderful. But so he was like I don't want more kids and I was like I don't want't want kids. So that works Right. I know so fast forward. And so I remember we were laying in bed one day and he goes like he rolled over and he was like hey, you know what? Like I've been thinking a lot about this and I don't want to be the reason that you don't get to experience motherhood. If that's something that you want, I'm open to being the one that, like, makes that happen for you. And I was like, oh, I got to think about this, cause I don't, I didn't. Okay, let me think about it. So yeah. So now we've been, that was 2017. We've been together ever since our son is five and happily married.

Speaker 1: 1:02:35

So that is an amazing story.

Speaker 2: 1:02:38

Oh my God he does not work for that client anymore. He's now a superintendent for a mechanical company in here in Sacramento. But but yeah, so I still represent the client. He doesn't work there anymore, but it's a love story.

Speaker 1: 1:02:49

So awesome that's. That's a. There's a movie there. I think there's a Netflix series in there for sure, Especially like with the yacht and all that. That's that's freaking awesome. All right, two questions as we round. Third, and head home One. Like you said, you have five things jobs, things that you do, but you're also like planning retreats or a mini conference or something. You do. That too. You're like an event organizer also. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:03:17

Well, there is a conference, but I have to give, it's so interesting that we're rounding out with this, because we started out talking about my parents and you're going to be surprised to hear this, but this involves my dad, so, yeah, so what happened was I made an offhanded comment to like it's just somebody in the construction space on LinkedIn. One time we were doing a coffee chat and I was like, wouldn't it be cool if, like a bunch of us got together in one place, like we used to do Remember pre-COVID, when we actually still networked in person? Wouldn't it be fun if we like all got together? And he was like, yeah, that would be awesome, you should organize that. And I was like, okay. Then I had like another coffee chat, like a week later, and I said it again and that person was like, yeah, you should organize that. And then I thing, you know, josh Harvey has a podcast with John Goose Dunham on it.

Speaker 2: 1:04:09

I'm listening to the replay and they're like, oh, yeah, megan Shapiro, she's hosting a retreat, a construction retreat, in Savannah in September. And I was like I'm doing what now? What's happening?

Speaker 1: 1:04:17

It's a retreat now.

Speaker 2: 1:04:18

Oh, I thought that we were going to like, pick a city and all just be like, okay, what weekend should we all just go to this random city and hang out with each other? No, so now it's a full three-day retreat. It's called Construction LinkedIn in Real Life hashtag Savannah in September. We're going to Savannah, georgia, the last weekend of September, which is sorry. I have to look at my calendar on the wall September 27th through the 29th. We are going to be three days. There's going to be a mix, a combination of organized formal events and organized informal events. So right now, the current itinerary looks like Friday night is going to be a little bit on your own, except for we're going to do a ghost tour because I love. Well right, it all ties together. We're going to do a ghost tour because I love well right, it all ties together. We're going to do a ghost tour of Old Savannah and that's kind of like, if you want to join us, join us.

Speaker 2: 1:05:07

Saturday is going to be a day full of organized programming. We are in the process of finalizing the details on a conference room. We're going to have breakfast and lunch served at the conference room, with coffee breaks and snack breaks in between. We're going to have networking opportunities, breakout sessions, some presentations from a few people, I think still talking about that, what that's going to look like. But that's going to be more formal. Saturday night we're going to again this is whoever wants to join we're going to do dinner on the river, the riverboat cruise tour dinner on Saturday night and then Sunday is still up in the air. I don't know if that's going to be an organized breakfast or if that's going to just sort of be like whoever wants to get together to follow up on their networking conversations from Saturday.

Speaker 2: 1:05:47

But the reason why I said my dad is because I am not organizing any of it. I roped in my dad. My dad is semi-retired. He has been a lifelong salesperson and he had many years where he was in sales and construction. So when this looked like a thing that everybody was expecting, like a big production for, I called my dad and I was like dad, I need you, like I got to ask for help. So my dad.

Speaker 2: 1:06:09

I got to give all credit to my dad. He has taken the laboring ore on organizing all of it. He's been interfacing with the hotel, been working out the contract details, doing all of that. So my dad gets credit, so he's going to be coming too. So everybody will get to meet my dad, since he's actually the real mastermind behind the planning. But we are going to be capped at 25 people because it's the first time out and I didn't want to get in over my head. So we should be finalizing all of the contracts with the hotel in the next week or so and then I'm going to. Then tickets will go on sale and it will just be first come, first serve, and when 25 are sold, then that's it, and if it's popular, I'm open to making it an annual thing.

Speaker 2: 1:06:49

Oh girl, yeah, so, and I don't know, I, since you can edit this, I guess I'll just say this. I don't know if you want to talk about your involvement in it yet or not, but that'm going to be there.

Speaker 1: 1:06:55

Okay, yeah, and I hope people have learned this and I hope you know this. Like I'm all about supporting people bringing new ideas into the world, like awesome people, and you are one of those people. There's a lot of people that have ideas and talk smack. I'm just going to say it and make some people wrong. There's a lot of people that are happy to say, yeah, you should do that, and you still don't know if them fools are going to show up, even though they were the ones that were instigating it. So I know what that feels like and when I heard about it, I'm like this woman don't play, I need to contribute, and you were gracious enough to allow me to contribute or invite me to contribute and invite me to come and hang out. So I'm excited for whatever the hell it's going to be. I get the sense that it's going to be freaking amazing and it's not going to be the last one. So that's what I got to say about that Love it. Closing question Miss Megan, what is the promise you are intended to be?

Speaker 2: 1:08:06

Ooh, that is a good closing question. You know what? And I'm just going to be really honest with you. I've heard you talk a lot about this. I've heard it as your sort of tagline catchphrase. I don't necessarily know if I really understand what it means, so I'm going to put it back in your court. What's yours? Give me an example, and then that'll help me understand what mine is.

Speaker 1: 1:08:26

I love it. So a little bit of context. It's the title of my book, right, becoming the Promise You're Intended to Be. It comes from one of my counselors when I was in rehab inpatient rehab. He pointed out to me. He says, jess, you're pretty good at admitting that you have a problem, that you're an alcoholic, that you're an addict, et cetera. He says but you haven't accepted. And I say what freaking lawyer games are we playing here, splitting hairs on words? And he said no, what you haven't accepted is that if you continue to live life the way you're living it, you will never become the promise you are intended to be, will never become the promise you are intended to be. And so in that moment I still can't like articulate it worth a damn.

Speaker 1: 1:09:07

But in that moment I knew all of those times that I felt like I could be more, I could contribute more, that I suppressed because that's impractical. That was the promise that I could see. All of those times that I felt conviction for making selfish, short-sighted decisions. That was me missing the mark. And so fast forward to now. For me, becoming the promise I'm intended to be is a matter of me sharing my gifts and talents and service to others? How can I contribute to others' path? How can I help them, guide them, support them, cheer them on in their path to self-discovery? That's the promise I am intended to be. How does that help?

Speaker 2: 1:09:56

That does help. Yeah, so I guess I would say similar to you, but I'm a little bit more specific about it in the sense that I really genuinely believe in the power of proactive risk management, and so I really just want to get the message out to construction leaders of all shapes and sizes there is so like I. Literally they don't understand how much they're losing in money because, like you, can truly, truly increase your profits, you can increase your bottom line by being strategic about your risk management. There are ways that you can track your ROI on this. Like they're, like they're you, I can level. I can help them level up. I want to help them level up in this very targeted and specific way. That's, I guess, the promise that I'm intended to be.

Speaker 1: 1:10:46

I understand, like the money thing is a good thing to anchor on because it's measurable, it's easily measured, yeah. But you and I both know that by investing in your services or maybe not even your services, but in a proactive risk mitigation strategy your quality of life is going to be profoundly better.

Speaker 2: 1:11:11

Am I wrong?

Speaker 2: 1:11:12

No, not at all, and again, I talked about this earlier, but with the live stream that I just did with one of my clients, one of the biggest hurdles and the hardest impacts that they felt from that catastrophic lawsuit that they were facing was the emotional toll that it took on them.

Speaker 2: 1:11:27

And I think that a lot of times, leaders who haven't yet experienced it and I do mean yet, because it is inevitable, I mean, if you're in construction for any length of time, beyond a blink of an eye, you're going to get there, it's going to happen and I think people don't really fully appreciate the emotional toll that it takes Literally sleepless nights, emails to me that were sent at 2.30 in the morning because they can't fall asleep, because they're replaying it over and over and over in their head, losing sleep, worrying about the people that they're employing and their families, and the domino effect of like, if they can't figure a way out of this, they have now lost their entire workforce and their workforce is out of work. Their family doesn't now, now doesn't have that paycheck, and that weighs heavy on a leader, heavy on a leader, and I think that's exactly it. People don't. They don't really appreciate the toll that it takes, and so if you can prevent that, why wouldn't you?

Speaker 1: 1:12:24

Amen sister, Did you have fun?

Speaker 2: 1:12:27

I had a blast. I always have a blast talking to you, Jesse.

Speaker 1: 1:12:31

Same Tons of energy. I think we're going to melt the internet when this thing goes live.