Transforming Careers and Lives: Lessons from Harold MacDowell, Former CEO of TD Industries

Discover the secrets to achieving a harmonious work-life balance while enjoying your profession with insights from Harold MacDowell, former CEO of TD Industries. Harold shares his compelling journey from a small-town upbringing in Oklahoma to leading a major organization, emphasizing the power of consistency and positive influence both at work and home. Hear firsthand how a supportive work environment can positively impact family dynamics and personal fulfillment, as Harold reveals his transition to a more balanced life post-retirement.

Journey with us through the highs and lows of navigating a career in mechanical contracting, starting from Harold's challenging experiences at Southern Methodist University to his rise in the ranks at TD Industries. Learn about the importance of efficient and budget-conscious building, and listen to the pivotal moments and valuable lessons learned from mentors and colleagues along the way. We also explore the technological evolution in construction, from the early days of computers and mobile phones to the contemporary use of AI, and how these advancements have reshaped professional experiences in the industry.

Gain profound insights into leadership, mentorship, and goal-setting essential for professional growth. Harold shares stories about the impact of positive management, the significance of consistent feedback, and the benefits of nurturing a healthy workplace culture. Discover the art of setting written goals and the importance of growing others to advance one's career. This episode is brimming with practical advice and personal anecdotes, ensuring a rich learning experience for anyone aiming for long-term success and personal fulfillment in their professional journey.

Connect with Harold at:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/harold-macdowell-0ab834/

Let Primo know youre listening:
https://depthbuilder.bio.link/

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https://www.depthbuilder.com/books

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

You like the people you're working with, you enjoy what you do. I mean, that has a huge ripple effect when you get home at night, because you don't go home and kick the dog, you go home and pet your dog. You go home and you're a better coach or you're a better father or a better mother, and that has a ripple effect down to the next generation and the next generation. So, no matter where you are, how high you want to go in your responsibilities or the size of your business, I think that realizing that consistency at home and at work is a really important thing if you're going to spend the majority of your life there because you will.

Speaker 2: 0:34

We do right. We spend most of our waking hours 50 to 60 hours a week right what is going on?

Speaker 2: 0:44

l L&M family. I have a super awesome special guest, a person that's had tremendous impact in my life, personally and professionally, and if this is your first time, you're about to pick up on some cheat codes and real life experience on the less than straight way to success. So I'll tell you a little bit about who we're talking to. We are going to be talking to Mr Harold McDowell. As I mentioned, he played a huge role in my professional development and me as a human being, and something a lot of people don't know or couldn't know because they weren't there is. He played a huge role in me understanding, wrestling with and coming to terms with the concept of servant leadership, and he's also guilty like the number one accomplice in terms of me producing content, having the podcast out there, because he helped me buy my very first computer, which is really important moment in my life that I want to make sure we don't forget about that, and so, anyways, we're going to get to talk to Harold here in a minute, but I want to give a shout out to the L&M family member first, and this shout out goes to Ms Claudia Garcia. Ms Claudia, love you supporting and being a part of this experience.

Speaker 2: 2:00

Claudia says, jesse, looking for perfection and feeling defeated when I'm pushed to sacrifice quality over quantity makes me feel like there is simply not enough of me to go around. And she goes on to say my post and the no BS tribe have helped her incredibly. And so, claudia, I appreciate you sharing that Incredibly. And so, claudia, I appreciate you sharing that. More importantly, I'm super happy that you're getting some kind of personal value out of the post and out of the no BS tribe and folks, y'all can find out. No BS with Jen and Jess will be live streaming. So enough of that, let's get to meet one of my heroes. This is almost surreal for me, because it's a little weird to be speaking to you one-on-one, harold, even though we've had one-on-one conversation. How are you doing today? Doing?

Speaker 1: 2:47

good man. It's good to be with you, Looking forward to it.

Speaker 2: 2:51

Yeah, so, so excited. So what are the secret juicy things that people need to know about you, Harold?

Speaker 1: 2:59

You didn't save the softballs at all, did you? You throw the fastball in right away. So my story, just to give you a little background. I grew up small town Oklahoma. I'm an Hokie from Muskogee, went to high school in Arkansas, found my way down to Dallas. That's how I found the industry. It was a long journey, had a lot of twists and turns in it. I mean even to this day, as I'm moving in my fourth quarter of life, having retired from TD this year, and I'm still trying to stay focused and true to my mission, which is helping other people grow and having a positive impact on those around me. So I'm having fun with that. But it's been an interesting transition to walk away from over 40 years of 50 to 60 hour a week work and think about doing what you want to do?

Speaker 2: 3:51

Yeah, a hundred percent. So, Harold, you were the CEO of TD Industries and you've retired fourth quarter of life. I like that. I have a friend, Holly, who says she's in the third half of her life. I know that's not mathematically accurate, but I know exactly what you're talking about. But you started in Oklahoma. So high school, Oklahoma, I think. You went to SMU. Did you have a cheat sheet or the answer sheet that said do these things, Harold, and you'll be the CEO and retire and do amazing things.

Speaker 1: 4:15

No way. No, I mean, I don't know that anybody has that much of a long view. I just, I mean, I did well in school and I worked hard, but you know, I thought I was pretty smart coming out of Arkansas high school and I got down to Dallas and everybody was smarter, so that was kind of one of the early wake up calls that I had. I mean, the only reason I got to come to SMU was because I got a scholarship that enabled me to come down here, but it was a, it was an eye opener. I thought I was top of my class and when I got here everybody was top of their class and so the game got, the bar got raised, and I think that happens to all of us in life at different points and you grow right, your peers and your competition changes. The bar keeps moving. So and that that's good, I that's a good thing.

Speaker 2: 5:03

So when you like that first clash of being I imagine it was, or rather I'm envisioning like big fish, big guy on campus and showing up with that and then saying, oh my goodness, like this is, how did you cope with that? Because I imagine it's one of those experiences that replayed over and over that Cause I imagine it's one of those experiences that replayed over and over. So, like, first time, what was? How did you come to terms with that and reconcile? I got to elevate my game after being at the top of the game.

Speaker 1: 5:39

Yeah, I think initially, you know, small town Oklahoma and Arkansas gets to the big city where the girls are all pretty and I had a lot of fun to flash all the way back, I mean I almost flunked out. I mean I had a very difficult freshman year. I had a whole lot of fun, but I lost my scholarship. And I remember going home and my dad telling me you know, you blew it. You know, maybe you can go up to university of Arkansas with all your high school buds, but you're not going back to Dallas.

Speaker 1: 6:02

And then one morning we hadn't been talking for about 10 days and one morning at the breakfast table he was reading the paper and the paper came down and he said do you want to go back to Dallas? And I said sir, yes, sir. And he said well, then you need to meet me down at the first national bank this morning at nine o'clock. And the paper went back up. He folded it up and he just walked out and I remember running in there to talk to my mother and I said she said well, what was your answer? I said sir, yes, sir. She said, well, you better get your ass in the shower and get moving because you don't have much time, and so when I thought I mean I was at the bottom right, I mean I thought I'd lost everything. Life didn't look good from where I sat as a young person. But I walked in the bank and he made me sign student loans for about two times what I lost and my grades shot straight up, because now you were carrying the bag, huh yeah.

Speaker 1: 6:57

Yeah, so I hope it's a. I mean, everybody has challenges and transitions in life, but it was one of my first big ones, where you kind of turn lemons into lemonade, right, and get after it. And how do we recoil from this setback? My grades shot straight up. That's how I started working part-time while I was going to school and holding my grades up and that's how I found the industry and I started working for one of TD's competitors while I was at SMU and that's how I found the mechanical contracting business.

Speaker 2: 7:25

And so what was it about this business that?

Speaker 1: 7:28

drew you in. I think it's the same thing that draws a lot of people in. Right, we're builders at heart. We like constructing things and I always liked playing Legos and building tree houses and building things right Box cars, anything that had a build component to it. So I fell in love with that and got to work on some neat projects, just like you have right. I mean, it's fun to be able to drive around town and point and say we helped build that and they're everywhere in all the cities that we've worked in. Being a part of that and being a part of the built environment and creating schools, hospitals, laboratories, data center, stadiums Having an opportunity to work on that type of stuff is exciting and I fell in love with the business and that's why I stayed and I was lucky enough to find a company where I could keep growing and 39 years at TD, 19 years as a CEO it was a wild ride.

Speaker 2: 8:22

A wild ride. So 20 years of your tenure with TD were pre-CEO years and like official job, when you were like started getting the paycheck because they did paychecks back then, right Was it? Project manager.

Speaker 1: 8:37

No, is that how? I was an almost project manager. I was an assistant project manager.

Speaker 1: 8:42

Okay, or as they call an ass PM, right, yeah, and I just latched on to the guys and gals that understood the business and started asking tons of questions. I was lucky enough to be at a job site with some really experienced foremen and superintendents and I spent a lot of time in the field asking them to show me how do you do this, because they were the masters and I knew nothing. I could keep track of the money, right, I could keep track of the budgets, but that's not where the sauce is made. The sauce is made and making real work, building things and doing it on time and on budget.

Speaker 2: 9:16

Yeah, that's the thing, like you can build it, but if it's over budgeted and over schedule, that's not a whole lot to celebrate. When people ask me if I've been a project manager, I'm like, how dare you? I don't have. I'll say the role that title of project managers is not high on my list in terms of roles that I appreciate, and it's because the majority of the people that I've interacted with in those roles demonstrated very little appreciation for what it took to get the work done.

Speaker 1: 9:49

Those are bad project managers, right? I mean those are project managers that don't understand and appreciate their field partners that's how I grew. Right Is creating successful projects. You've got a team with your partner. You've got to lock arms and make it happen in order to make these things come together. So I'm sorry you had some difficult ones. We've all been there, right?

Speaker 2: 10:12

Well, but you gained that understanding and appreciation. I know that some of the L&M family members almost PM or APMs or PMs and may be struggling and feeling or dealing with somebody like me that would take any opportunity I could to jab them in the ribs. But in terms of gaining, developing that appreciation for the relationships and the people doing the installation with their hands, what kind of guidance would you offer them to like get off center and build those relationships?

Speaker 1: 10:44

Ask questions, ask tons of questions right, show some appreciation for working in a hundred degree environment right and trying to make this stuff happen, collaborate and, I think, just work hard. I was never the first person to leave the job. I was always one of the last persons to leave the site and I think when they see you working hard, they see you asking questions. That's when the magic begins and that's how you learn. You got to put in the time and you've got to be a sponge.

Speaker 2: 11:13

So you got into the industry. I'm imagining. Well, I don't, I'm not, I don't have to imagine. I know iPads weren't a thing, iphones weren't a thing, right, email was email a thing? Well, it wasn't a thing.

Speaker 1: 11:27

Yet no, we had paper drawings and we had mylar vellum and then we had just paper out the wazoo yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:35

There was no digital model.

Speaker 2: 11:37

Oh my God. Yeah, I remember we used to build a box with the light in it and do overlay with plans on top of that to say, oh okay, there might be a conflict here. Yeah, we're short of rain For sure Now, but through the arch of your career, there's been some tremendous, like gigantic shifts in terms of thinking and also technology, and so I'm wondering would you say that you were like on the leading edge of those things, or you were kind of the frozen middle, or maybe I don't know, let me see if it works how would you rate yourself in terms of championing and adopting change and technology?

Speaker 1: 12:20

One of the first people to have a computer, a laptop, a TD. We had them in Dallas at Special Project and I think we're also one of the first teams to have a bag phone right To carry these phones around on like a backpack, almost right, and it looked like a briefcase, a soft-sided briefcase, and that was the phone in it and we used it to send somebody. If it was a hard bid, like a public job, right, they would go down to the site and they would wait there while we calculated the numbers and then you would phone the number in and they would write it on the piece of paper and turn it in an envelope. So it was before fax machines and before email.

Speaker 1: 12:57

But I think I think TD has done a good job of trying to stay on the technology curve. It has risks, yeah, oh yeah, it has a lot of risks and it doesn't all work out and some of it can be very painful when you're first putting it in place. But we'd have to keep embracing that 100%. I'm playing around, probably just like you are right. I'm playing around with AI and I'm trying to see you know what is this artificial intelligence stuff and how could it maybe make my life a little simpler. It's very interesting, it's yes, it's a huge.

Speaker 2: 13:29

I'm sure I'm under utilizing the capacity that AI has, but the little bit that I'm using huge time saver. I just think of all the application that I could have used the thing over my career and save myself hours, or not just save myself hours but deliver a better value service. So, example I don't like doing meeting minutes. I'm not going to send out paragraphs and sentences, but there's AI that'll record the conversation, summarize it and produce meeting notes. Exactly Like. Come on, like. Who wants to be tracking meeting minutes and sending them out? If I can press a button and hit send and my clients think I'm smarter, I'm winning, exactly.

Speaker 1: 14:19

I can create documents for you too, right? I mean, you know, create me a Word doc that does this, and then you can get a this, and then you get a draft that then you can play with and edit oh, my goodness.

Speaker 2: 15:15

And so, through your carissa, assistant pm project manager, what were the signals that you could see when it was like, okay, it's time for me to make another jump in my you?

Speaker 1: 15:25

know, I think some of them are kind of slap you in the face and I think in the late 80s I had been, I'd been working at TD for a couple of years and we'd built a big project in Dallas called the Crescent and it was one of the biggest jobs TD had ever worked on. I was like third fiddle on the project management team, learning and growing. But anyway, when the savings and loan crisis came and the banking crisis came, the cranes came down and new construction was stopping. I mean, there was not new construction work and not enough for everybody, but we had started doing existing buildings. We had started doing more tenant finish and more renovations and more things like that. And so everybody that was doing new construction nobody wanted to do special projects as we call it now. Back then we call it tenant finish.

Speaker 1: 16:09

I went out at whole hog and we started getting better margins and we started making money. And then we renamed it right, we renamed it special projects and next thing you knew we were making more money than the new construction guys in Dallas. And then we had everybody's attention. So what everybody thought was a crap market or crap business into something that looked really good, especially in difficult times. So be careful where you know that you lock yourself in too hard in this industry to just big work. Right. There's a whole virus industry that is about existing buildings and renovations and replacements. That, I think, is really exciting work and breathing new life into old structures. Work and breathing new life into old structures I find really energizing, especially when you look at some of these things people are working on today, like the Alamo and some of the old buildings around San Antonio.

Speaker 1: 16:57

Texas is not that old, but we're starting to get there.

Speaker 2: 17:00

Yeah, well, you mentioned San Antonio. So I got to meet you in person in San Antonio at job reviews. So I was still working for TD at the time and would do these job reviews, which for me and it changed over the cause I was there for 17 years with TD. Sometimes the job reviews were like I looked forward to them and I got a lot out of them. Sometimes it felt like it was time for me to go and take my beating right, like that's just what it felt like and it just it kind of depended on the job and the people in the room. But early on I think I was still a foreman. Yeah, oh, I was absolutely a foreman.

Speaker 2: 17:39

Ut Health Science Center Hot place to work. You were in in the job review and it was like, oh, my goodness, what is going on? I think you weren't in the CEO role yet and so it was. My point is I didn't know what to expect because we had Harold from Dallas coming right. It was a big deal, and so I'm just expecting to get yelled at and berated about how poorly I'm performing. And that was it why you thought I was there. What's that? That's why you thought I was there. What's that that's why you thought I was there. Yes, right, but that's kind of the point here is the way you led.

Speaker 2: 18:16

The way I experienced your leadership shifted something in me like, oh, it can be done differently because you did it differently. The project was a pain, but we were looking at problems. What I remember is okay, there's some things, the decisions that we need to make. There's some problems we need to have plans to address. Where are we today and how are we going to get there?

Speaker 2: 18:39

Which was dramatically different than not just what I experienced, but what a lot of people experience in the industry. Where the check-ins are, you failed, do better, scream and shout yeah. And that wasn't your approach and all of it. I was like this is this dude's awesome? Like what is, what is this thing? It was the servant leadership I think that I saw you demonstrating, but it was a totally different thing for me. Anyways, and consistently over years, you operated that way, and so I know you've had to deal at every level like underperformance, financial failures and these sorts of things. What I'm curious to know is like how did you build the skillset to stay focused, be hard on the process and support and nurture the people? Right, because I'm guessing that you may have had like a nuclear meltdown or two in your career, at least once.

Speaker 1: 19:34

Oh yeah, I mean, we've had some horrible projects along the way, we've had some horrible business results at different times, but I've never found that screaming and shouting makes it any better. All I does is energize everybody's emotions where nobody stops. Everybody stops listening, and then you can't get clarity around, kind of where are we? What can we do in order to begin to improve the situation? What are the next actions we can take? So we all have to get on the same page, for where are we? How do we get here? But screaming and shouting is not going to give us any clarity about where we go next. And that's all the most important question. Right, okay, here we are. We may be up to our ass and you know what, but how are we going to get out of it.

Speaker 1: 20:18

How are we going to make this customer happy or how are we going to get this building delivered on time or this floor finished on time? And it happens every day, every week, on thousands of sites across the US, hundreds of sites across TV, and there are no perfect companies and there are no perfect people. I mean, I'm sure somebody is going to listen to this podcast and say, well, harold screamed and shouted at me once. I hope those are not the ones that people remember the most.

Speaker 2: 20:45

Yeah, definitely. Well, you know I mentioned it at the top of this conversation that you helped me buy my first computer. It's a huge thing that I think any human being needs to be aware of, and the thing I'm talking about is the impact you can have on somebody's life with a small decision. You have no, we really don't have any idea, because, harold, I'm pretty sure you didn't say I'm going to get this little troublemaker, help him get a computer so that he can start his own business and have a podcast and produce all kinds of content, right?

Speaker 1: 21:21

Like no, but I'm sure it turned out that way.

Speaker 2: 21:24

Yeah, I'm glad it did. Thank you, I mean, it was really a situation. I think it was Derek, oh, I keep forgetting his name.

Speaker 1: 21:32

Anyways, Derek was an electrician.

Speaker 2: 21:35

He had the laptop on site, he started showing me Excel. I think I was taking night classes at the time and I learned that you could do formulas on this thing that was called Excel. I was like, oh my God, this is magic. And so I asked Derek, can I use your computer in the morning and in the evening, like when the guys were gone? And he's like, yeah, sure, and somehow that made it.

Speaker 2: 21:55

We were talking about it and you heard you're like, why are you doing that late or early? I'm like because I don't have a computer. And she said well, if you go get a computer, I'll give you X amount of dollars back. I was like done and that, like that. That there alone shifted my trajectory of what I thought my career was going to be, cause at that point in time I just wanted to be the awesomest foreman in San Antonio and be and that's it Like I was happy to accomplish that. You entered, your action, introduced me to access a tool, to access new learning and serve in a different manner, which again totally opened a new landscape.

Speaker 1: 22:37

Go back for just a second. The reason I think you got that break is because you were focused on learning. You were putting in the time in the evenings and in the mornings on your time to learn, and that was what caught my attention.

Speaker 1: 22:50

Here's a foreman in the field that is eager to learn how to use a computer, learn how to use new software tools right At the time it was rare. Your own actions is what made me want to help you get a leg up and keep going Right. So I think it's back to this concept of lifelong learning and showing people that you want to keep learning, asking lots of questions, not being afraid to ask dumb questions. You mean you can't ask the same question three times, right, that probably won't work. But lifelong learners find people that want to help and I think you're a great example of that.

Speaker 2: 23:24

Thank you, Harold. So I mean, I think that's a key point, right? A key takeaway for folks is continue learning, put yourself out there. What are some of the other? Well, here's a fun one Like what are some of the surprising lessons you picked up on along the way, and maybe particularly the ones that came out of dark times? It's easy to feel like when I'm in a dark period, a dark season, that it's a total waste, but for me anyways, the lessons I'd learned in those dark seasons were like the deepest, most impactful lessons I agree.

Speaker 1: 23:59

I think that none of us like to be in difficult places, with whatever life circumstances or work circumstances we find ourselves in. But I've found, like you just described, that's where the biggest growth comes, and when you look at organizations or you look at teams, people grow the most in difficult circumstances. We don't really grow when things are all smooth and up and to the right as nearly as much as we do when times are tough. And so I think back over 40 years of TD and different down cycles we had in the business right, it wasn't always up and to the right. There were always some down cycles that we had to reset and regroup and learn and go again. So it's an oft-repeated adage right, what does not kill you will make you stronger. But it's all about how you react to it. And what are we really learning here? And I think some of the darkest times of my life, I mean look back later and yeah, there were gifts, there were a lot of gifts. Didn't see it at the time, maybe, but you feel like gifts, no, no, you feel like gifts, no, no. But I think you made a little point a little earlier about never underestimate the impact we all have on those that we're working with every day, and the importance of just being an encourager, an illuminator. There's a guy that I'm reading right now talking about being an illuminator, not a diminisher, and that's about encouraging people right, and that's about realizing that how you behave and how you react, and whether you're even smiling or frowning, has an impact on those around you. So our attitudes are contagious.

Speaker 1: 25:34

I was still I don't know, it's probably my first 10 years with TD and I remember walking in the building. One day we had a wonderful receptionist in Dallas. Her name was Gail, and I remember walking in the building. One day we had a wonderful receptionist in Dallas, her name was Gail and I remember walking in the building. One day he says hey, gail, and she said hey, harold, and she said what's wrong with you? I said what?

Speaker 1: 25:52

And I said why did you ask me that? And she says well, when, when you don't smile or when you're frowning, worries the rest of us. And she just kind of poked me right in the eye and just said you're not realizing. You know that people are always watching, especially once you get into supervision or you get into leadership. People are always watching and how and, as you said, how we react, how we encourage, how we illuminate others is so, so important because it sets the tone all around us and it doesn't matter whether you're in a little bitty team or a bigger team or a great big organization. People are always watching. It doesn't matter. I mean, at home, my kids are always, we're always watching, and they still are.

Speaker 2: 26:32

Yeah, always taking the temperature, huh, you know, I think it's amazing because it's an area of my life that I've designed out. What I think is amazing is contributing in meaningful ways in business and also supporting a family, and you've done that in big ways right. Being the CEO of TD and having your family and growing kids and the whole thing. What are some takeaways that you would advise an aspiring CEO or C-suite professional Like, if you want to go there, here's some things that are important to make sure you're keeping everything healthy.

Speaker 1: 27:09

I think one of the most rewarding things I was lucky to find TD Industries To work for.

Speaker 1: 27:14

Any organization that understands that it's not just about the work or about the project, that if you want to have great organizations, you got to be able to hold talent together, you've got to be able to have people that want to come to work every day and do great things.

Speaker 1: 27:28

And I think when organizations realize that what we teach in the workplace and how we behave in the workplace has a ripple effect far beyond the workplace and it can be generational, because a lot of people have worked at shit companies through the years and then they find an organization where they can actually be treated with dignity and respect and we're on most mornings I look forward to coming to work.

Speaker 1: 27:52

Right, it's not all roses, but most mornings you can look forward to coming to work. You like the people you're working with, you enjoy what you do. I mean that has a huge ripple effect when you get home at night because you don't go home and kick the dog, right, you go home and peck your dog. You go home and you're a better coach or you're a better father or better mother, and that has a ripple effect down to the next generation and the next generation. So no matter where you want to, how high you want to go in your responsibilities or the size of your business, I think that realizing that consistency at home and at work is a really important thing If you're going to spend the majority of your life there.

Speaker 2: 28:32

Cause you will, we do right. We spend most of our waking hours 50 to 60 hours a week.

Speaker 1: 28:38

Right, I mean it's just, it's a lot.

Speaker 2: 28:40

Yeah, yes, oh, man, I think it's a huge one. I agree in that. Be selective about who you're going to work with. That's pretty simple. If you give us a whiff of like the jerkiness, like the demeaning, dismissive type, find another boss, find another job, because that's not going to be fun, it's going to suck the joy out of your life Well before you go right, you that's not going to be fun.

Speaker 1: 29:03

It's going to suck the joy out of your life. Well, before you go, right, you might give it a shot, you might try to influence them a little bit. I think we've all managed up sometimes and it's not out of the question that you can help an a-hole boss, you know, have a little awakening. I think it's important, before you're going to walk away, at least don't be afraid to give them some feedback, right, oh, afraid to give them some feedback, right, and oh yeah, okay, why not give some feedback? You're going to quit anyway, right, I mean, why not tell them, why do you lead us like such a jerk? Right, I mean, you don't make us while we're car, it does.

Speaker 1: 29:32

And in today's environment, in the industry, right, people can walk out and have three job offers, I mean, just like that. So to your point, right, don't stick around with an organization that's being led incorrectly or being misled from the top, because that probably would be really hard to change. But I think so many times, even in bad organizations, you can have good teams, right, you can have good projects. And so I always I like Arthur Ashe, right, you know, start where you are and do what you can and may not change the whole enterprise, but if we can change our crew or we can influence our project right, and then maybe we can influence this general contractor to stop being such a head. But it just has amazing ripple effects.

Speaker 2: 30:16

Yeah, Agreed. So managing, uh, I think that's a huge one because it's a high-risk activity. Or I'll say more clearly it feels like a high-risk activity. It's not. Let's talk about that. Why not? Why is it not a high-risk activity? If you're?

Speaker 1: 30:34

going to leave anyway. What the hell? I'm always blown away by people that would quit because we're not perfect by any means. And then after they leave, they'd say, oh, it's because of this and this and this. I said, well, you never told anybody. How are we supposed to fix it? Right, you didn't give us a chance. And then a couple of years later they'd boomerang back in right when that guy's gone or something Right? But I would just encourage people. If you're going to leave anyway, take a chance. Just encourage people. If you're going to leave anyway, take a chance. You might help somebody and if you don't, you're going to find a different opportunity anyway. So, but I think a lot of people I don't know whether it's fear or whether it's, I just don't want to rock the boat. What do you think it is? Why do people not?

Speaker 2: 31:14

I think there's two sides of the coin. I think on one hand, like the personal, it's self-preservation If I share, like excluding when I'm leaving, cause that's easy, right, I'm leaving you suck and I'm just going to let you have it. Right, you could do that. But it's just in the situation where I'm not leaving me. Pointing out the warts on the boss's face could get me in trouble. Right, it could, I will, I could lose favor and then deal with whatever repercussions may come from that, and I've experienced that right Now. On the other side of that coin, if we think about when, I think about leaders and organizations, it's how they respond to feedback. So a simple little example I hear a lot of people say they have an open door policy. I see a lot of people that have changed no offices. Now they've got cubicle open floor situation. That does not make an open door conditions.

Speaker 1: 32:19

What makes that is people talking to people Right, Safety right.

Speaker 2: 32:25

People have to feel safe and so if I share, if I go out of my, put myself at risk in giving feedback to my superiors, and their first response is to minimize it, dismiss it or, worse, bite my head off, chomp, or maybe not bite my head off, but take a bite. I'm never going to do it again. And so, yes, as an individual, I have a response and I know this because I learned how valuable, how helpful it is for me to tell people, leaders especially, that they have a stinky bag of poo that they think is awesome. I've learned because I've done it a bunch of times and they're like they had no idea, because nobody ever told them like, oh, but why don't we? Oh, because we've had other leaders take a chomp at our neck. It's like, oh, that's dangerous. I don't want to do that. I think, as leaders, we have a responsibility to develop the skill to gracefully receive feedback, and I think that's largely lacking.

Speaker 1: 33:27

Make people feel safe to be able to tell you. It goes all the way back to the fairy tale the emperor has no clothes, right? Oh, it's even that cute, it ain't pretty, oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:37

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Speaker 1: 33:39

I think another, maybe another idea is if you're going to offer upward feedback or upward coaching, you've got to time it right. You've got to have a time when people are going to be open to it. Are you open to some feedback? Is this a good time? Nah, you're too busy today. Maybe another day? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:00

Well, and I think the other thing, rather, I'm making a conclusion here in that you've always been ultra approachable, even back when I first met you in the job reviews, all the way to when you were CEO, flying around doing the huddles, the partner huddles Do they still call them huddles All partner meeting, all partner meeting, column huddles. All partner meeting, all partner meeting. Always ultra approachable and receptive to feedback, which I think is a graduated form of continuous learning, like lifelong learning, because there's a difference between receiving new concepts, new ideas and receiving feedback about me as a human being. Would you agree?

Speaker 1: 34:42

Yeah, me as a human being or our company, what's going right or what's not going right? I think a lot of people are afraid to say this ain't working. You may think this is working, but this isn't working. Yeah, totally. I learned that skill from Jack Lowe Jr, and I think his dad was a natural at it. I was fortunate enough to work with some good role models, and when you can find good role models that you can learn from, latch on to them, be a spawn. Ask so many questions.

Speaker 2: 35:12

So how did you go along making the decision in selecting those roles, role models, because I imagine you still do that today.

Speaker 1: 35:20

Yeah, that's a great question. When I'm looking for role models or people that I can learn from in the fourth quarter, I'm not calling it retirement, I'm calling it rewirement. I'm rewiring and setting new goals, but I'm looking for people that know things that I don't know. I'm looking for people that have maybe been there, done that and that can teach me. And I think, whether you're brand new in the industry or whether you're in retirement and trying to figure out what you're going to do next, I think identifying people that know things you don't know, that you could learn from and I mean I'm doing some certifications. I'm doing some online certifications. It's kind of like a master plumber certification, but it's for independent directors, so independent directors of public and private corporations. So I'm trying to man up on my skills right For the types of things that I want to do. So it's always looking for ways to keep learning. People can keep learning from.

Speaker 2: 36:14

I think you're really good at that too Gotten good, like there was a period where I was reluctant to do it because I knew everything. If everybody would just listen to me, things would be perfect. Going to TD was the biggest, best damn accident I ever made. Because I was going to TD, because I was going to make more money. They're paying me more and they got better benefits. The benefits sound cute, but they're paying me more. I'm going over there. And then it was like, oh my goodness, the servant leadership, the program I don't want to say program the system that TD had that helped me learn, evaluate, understand, practice servant leadership and other stuff that would never have been in my selection criteria for growing my career, meaning what are they paying me?

Speaker 1: 37:03

I agree. Well, I mean, when I first went to TD I didn't know what we were signing up for. I had student debt, right, I needed a job. The company I was working for was bankrupt. I called TD back. I interviewed with TD and I told him no, and I went to work for the other guys. A year later they were bankrupt. And so I'm calling TD back saying, hey, remember me, any chance you got an opening that's too cool actually the guy I called.

Speaker 1: 37:31

I just took you and his wife to dinner the other night. Steve clay was his name and v clay and ben houston, who saw both those guys recently oh wow, ben houston, that's awesome, I remember ben ben houston that, 80 years old, is still mending fences and running cattle in east texas oh, I believe it.

Speaker 2: 37:52

I believe it. You know, he told he shared a story at one of the trainings that I've practiced multiple times, and so he told a story about going. There was a problem with the client I can't remember getting paid or an issue. He's trying to have a meeting. Somebody couldn't secure it, so he just went and sat in the lobby and waited till the person he needed to talk to showed up and he made it happen.

Speaker 1: 38:17

Trammell Crowe.

Speaker 2: 38:18

What's that? It was Trammell Crowe.

Speaker 1: 38:20

Oh really, you're nuts. Yeah, no, that was a real story Early on in Trammell's career and Jack Law and Trammell got to be friends and that's when TV started doing bigger work, oh, wow.

Speaker 2: 38:32

Wow. So I took that lesson the very first time I used it was probably five, maybe six years ago. I was trying to get some information, some files, from the person that had all the files, the holder of the files and man, we just it was slippery to get ahold of that guy and so finally we were in, where were we? We were in, oh geez, where were we. We were in, oh geez, nebraska, omaha.

Speaker 2: 38:57

We were in Omaha and he was leaving out a day or two before I was and I'm like, hey, man, I need those files. He's like, oh yeah, I got to go immediately. I said, wait a minute, do what Ben did. My brain reminded me of that and I said, fine, I'll uber wiki to the airport, give me the jump drive, I'll download it on my laptop while we're going to the airport and we'll be done.

Speaker 2: 39:21

And I did it like he was like dude, like you were serious, like yeah, and so that's happened several times where it's like, just go be there and if you need it that bad, go be there and get the damn thing. So again, there was a lot of that type of experience that was shared and I want to say there was a system to make the sharing happen. I think there's a lot of people that understand the value of mentorship, but I think the system's out there to make mentoring happen. So I'm wondering what are your thoughts around that? What could people do, or individuals and organizations do, to create a dang mentorship system that actually produces the outcome that everybody wants?

Speaker 1: 40:04

I think we've restarted some different mentor programs at TD over the last several decades more than once, right, and I think we run for a while, we have some success and then kind of drops off or takes discipline and commitment to put that type of training and development in place and keep it going. And so I don't have any silver bullets on how to do it. It's hard, it's hard, but I think the organizations that do commit and do put the time and the energy behind it. I think the return on investment is high, I think it's very high. And I think all the training and development that we did through the years, we wouldn't have been able to grow the business like we did if we hadn't done that.

Speaker 1: 40:42

We don't have anything to sell but the gifts and talents of our people. And so if you don't grow the assets, if you don't grow the people, you can't grow your business, and if you don't grow the people, you can't build great projects. And the only thing worse than training your people and having them leave right, because that's always the fear, right, if I train everybody, they're going to leave. Well, some, yes, but if you don't train your people and they stay, just think how sorry your company is going to be right or how sorry your project is going to be right or how sorry your project's going to be. So I think you would just have to lean in and realize, yeah, some, we're going to train, they're going to go. But the only thing worse again is, well, let's not train anybody and and just see what happens.

Speaker 2: 41:25

I mean that's horrible, yeah well and if they do lead, you played a part in making the industry better. Like you elevate the expectation. You pointed to it earlier. When I was at TD there were a lot of people, especially apprentices. It felt like the people that were born in TD right, that started their career in TD were the one and I'm talking specifically the craft workers, right, apprentices, sheet metal that we get them into apprenticeship program in. About halfway or three quarters away through their first year of apprenticeship or their second year, they went to work somewhere else because they just weren't getting enough and then they'd come back and they're like man, it was not what I expected. They couldn't really understand, because they had no frame of reference, that what the experience they were having may not be ideal, but it's pretty damn good.

Speaker 1: 42:18

Yeah, when you get in a learning organization that does invest in people, everybody knows that and so they're going to. They aren't going to try to steal your people, right, because a mechanic at a learning organization like TD is going to be a foreman someplace else, or a foreman at TD is going to be a superintendent someplace else. You just have to be willing to take those chances, because when they boomerang back in, it's so amazing.

Speaker 2: 42:41

Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. I haven't boomerang yet, but I'm still a partner and I'm grateful for all the work that they're doing out there and what you've done and what you will be doing.

Speaker 1: 42:51

You were just recently at TD, so yes that was, like it's so amazing.

Speaker 2: 43:00

I was teaching in the DFW area and the flashbacks, right, I'm like man. I remember when I learned this thing in DFW and what was going through my head, right, they taught me this thing and they said, hey, you're going to be co-facilitating the next one. Rod Johanson said we'll co-facilitate the next one in San Antonio, came down. I got a call the night before and said hey, we're not co-facilitating, you are doing it Like. And then fast forward. You know, here we it is 20 years later where I'm teaching it like it it was an amazing experience.

Speaker 2: 43:37

Yeah, super cool. Thank you for that. All right, so we talked a lot like. First of all, it's like you and I are having like a conversation. I feel like human being to human being and in my head I I'm talking to my CEO because what I remember is being the foreman superintendent, whatever it was at TD and you were the CEO. Like this conversation never happens in real life, but it's happening. So it's kind of weird and, along that line, what are the important things that I forgot to ask about?

Speaker 1: 44:11

I might've had been blessed to be a CEO at TD for a while, right, but we all put our pants on the same way. We're all got the same issues that we're dealing with on a daily basis, whether it's family or friends or health or whatever is going on in your world, right? So I don't think large organizational leaders are any different than project managers or superintendents or foremen. We're all just people, right, trying to be successful. But back to your question did I have any other thoughts or anything I wish you'd asked? I wanted to maybe just put a plug in to your audience, because my perception is that they are learners and they wouldn't be watching if they didn't want to learn.

Speaker 1: 44:52

And I just want to put a plug in for the importance of goal setting and written down goals, right, and there's lots of systems out there to help you do it. I'm not going to try to prescribe that, but I think having written goals and all the important buckets of your life right Whether it's spiritual or family, career, community, you know figure out what those buckets are that drive you, and having two or three or four goals in each of those categories I mean, I remember doing that as a young project manager and updating it every year, and it drove me and it drove my career. So I think having a good set of written goals is so, so important if you want to keep learning and growing. And then how you do that on a daily basis. I was going to put a plug in for a little book and see if I can get it on there.

Speaker 1: 45:44

Yeah, yeah, the five man journal is an amazing little daily tool, right when you you set your intention for the day. It only takes five minutes in the morning, five minutes at night. You know three things I'm grateful for, three things that would make today great and two things that I'm working on, and that's it. Start from a grateful heart. What are the big three? Right that, if I got these three things done today and then when I look back at the end of the day, I would say that was a good day. You're always got a couple of things that you're working on and at the end of the day, I do it in the morning, I can't do it, seem to do it at night, but at the end of the day you write down three amazing things that happened today. Right, yeah, wow, I did a podcast with jesse, went over and helped my mother-in-law, right, right, get some shit done, whatever it is. And then two things how could I have made today better? So two reflections, right, just two things off of today that would have made today better. But I think I would really recommend the book or the practice. If you buy one book, you don't have to keep buying the books, but I do Got a whole scroll full of them up there. So the five minute journal is a tool that I just want to put a plug in.

Speaker 1: 46:59

The other thing I want to say was I've tried to teach many that I've worked with, and I've tried to teach my kids, the importance of playing up. What I mean by playing up? I learned it in tennis in high school. You always want to play people that were better than you were. You're trying to play up, right, you're trying to play people that were better in order to improve your skills.

Speaker 1: 47:19

And I think in life and then work especially you want to think, act, dress like the role you want, not the role you have. So always play up right. You got to think like your boss. You got to act like well, hopefully he. So always play up right. You got to think like your boss. You got to act like well, hopefully he's a good boss, right? Yeah, that's important and don't be afraid, just dress the part. You can't maybe you can't wear overalls, right? You want to be the superintendent? All right, I'm just making that up, but you need to dress the part and I think that when you do, then, when the opportunity comes right, you look like the answer and you're more likely to be chosen, especially if you've gotten the results. You're eager to learn and you look like the answer, you're going to get promoted. So playoff, set goals, long-term goals, do it daily. And then playoff was just a couple of things that have served me really well over the years that I hope might help a few people.

Speaker 2: 48:16

Simple and powerful, and when I say simple, I mean not complex.

Speaker 1: 48:22

There's things that I could do every day with 30 minutes of time, and it is a daily discipline that yields weekly achievement and monthly achievement and lifelong success. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 48:35

You know, I bet and maybe we'll get some comments back from the L&M family out there I bet those copies that you have are the filled out five minute journals you have. I bet there's mountains and mountains of wisdom that people would love to get access to.

Speaker 1: 48:53

I'm afraid to open a few. The truth is in there.

Speaker 2: 48:56

Yeah, amazing. Thank you for those, harold. Okay, yeah, which brings us now we're out in third, gliding into home, and the closing question is what is the promise you are intended to be?

Speaker 1: 49:11

That's a deep question. I guess that's why I use it as the closer right. Yes, sir, right now, what I'm working on, I think it's similar to what has been a theme and part of my personal mission statement. I'm big on mission statements, corporate mission statements, but I'm also big on personal mission statements. So having a purpose right, and my purpose has always been about trying to create success for my family and my coworkers and my community on a long-term scale. So I think it's about being outwardly focused, not inwardly focused. It's about serving others. It's not about me, and so much of what we've talked about today is just about being humble and being focused.

Speaker 1: 49:55

When you grow others, you get to grow. When you grow those around you, then you're eligible for promotion, right. So I mean my whole career I've been focused on trying to grow those around me. And then, next thing, you know, I get promoted. I'll grow a team get promoted. Grow a business get promoted. I never my wildest dreams would have thought that I'd be CEO of a very large organization for the length of time that I have the opportunity to do that. So be careful what you wish for. There's a lot of hard work in there, but stay focused on others and you'll do fine. Amazing, did you have fun, harold? I loved every minute of it. I mean, I miss the people talking about that. My career time, yeah, oh yeah. Well, I miss the people, but it's awesome being able to reconnect with people like you and and other retirees that I lost touch with, and then, you know, staying in touch with young leaders at td. They don't need me anymore, they're doing just fine.