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Business of Endurance
Previously called Tribeathlon, The Business of Endurance is a podcast aimed at connecting endurance sport with personal and business advancement.
Hosted by Charlie Reading and Claire Fudge, the show provides a comprehensive approach to success, drawing inspiration from athletes, coaches, and motivational figures in the endurance sport domain.
With a diverse range of subjects being covered – from fitness strategies to business advice and life lessons – the discussions are designed to inspire not only athletes or entrepreneurs, but anyone pursuing growth in their personal or professional life. 40-minutes every Wednesday is all that's required to gain insights into how the tenets of endurance sport can shepherd success in business and personal development.
Business of Endurance
Journey to Becoming a World Champion Triathlete: A Conversation on Explorative Mindset with Katie Zaferes
What does it take to go from a humble beginning to becoming a world's leading triathlete? Katie Zaferes, our guest for today, holds the answers. From her sunny family fun activity to her Olympic dream, Katie shares an inspiring journey filled with grit and determination.
Brace yourself for a roller coaster ride as we discuss her crash in Tokyo and her amazing comeback to become a World Champion - all within two weeks! Her mental strategies including journalling, guided visualisations, and mantras play a pivotal role in her success. Get a firsthand account of her experience at the Tokyo Olympics and the anxiety she had to overcome.
We also delve into how Katie balances motherhood with the challenges of a triathlon career. She shares her insights on goal setting, how she uses books like Mind Gym and Atomic Habits for mental preparation, and her tips for travel, including managing jet lag and making travel painless. Tune in to this enlightening conversation with Katie Zaferes and discover what it takes to be a leading triathlete!
www.triathlon.org/athletes/profile/katie_zaferes
Instagram: @kzaferes6
This episode was sponsored by The Trusted Team and 4th Discipline
I'm Charlie Venning and I'm Claire Butch and this is the Tribe Athlon podcast.
Speaker 3:Like other people might feel super stoked to go into racing, and when people are like, are you excited to race, I'm like, not really like. I like it once I'm doing it.
Speaker 1:That was Katie Zafires, and this episode is the Explorative Mindset Embarking on a journey from a humble beginning to becoming one of the world's leading triathletes. Katie Zafires' story is one of relentless pursuit, dedication and unmatched resilience. Katie initially began her athletic journey as a runner. However, her evolution into the world of triathlon showcased her versatility and her tenacity. Katie is an American professional triathlete whose impressive consistency saw her climb from being ranked fifth in the world in 2015 to finally taking the top spot and winning the 2019 world championships at the La Sainte Grand Final. Recovering from a major bike crash in Tokyo Test Event to take the take and the title In 2021, katie was part of the USA Mixed Railway Team that won Olympic silver at Tokyo 2020 just days after winning her own individual bronze medal. Claire and I really wanted to chat to her about how she uses a different take and her version of visualization and goal setting to improve her results, how an explorative mindset can drive success and why sport psychology has played such a massive role in her journey to the top.
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Speaker 1:So, katie, welcome to the Tribe Athlon podcast. Really looking forward to chatting to you. I've been listening to some of the interviews that you've done recently. No, we're going to have loads to talk about here, so really looking forward to this. So I always like to start these episodes to find out the story behind getting into triathlon. So for you, I think that the story I'd love to hear about is kind of that first triathlon experience. How did you find yourself doing that first triathlon? Tell us a little bit about how that was.
Speaker 3:So the first triathlon experience I ever had was with my dad. It was a Father's Day triathlon, just a really local race around in our community. I'm one of three girls that he had and so I was the chosen daughter, I suppose, for that race at the time and I thought it was just something that we were doing together. I swam in high school and I also ran in high school, so I kind of had the swimming and running bit, but never put that together in triathlon and triathlon wasn't a thing for like my family. So I did it right after graduating high school with him. It was like I said, it was just something we were doing for fun. I definitely didn't foresee what triathlon would bring to my life or that I'd ever be able to say that all the accomplishments I've had in triathlon now. But it was really fun.
Speaker 3:And when I said, yes, I want to do the triathlon with you, my dad had to learn how to swim. So we were going to the pool and I was teaching him how to swim. But that was kind of like my initial experience. I remember I had like the slowest T1 because I was, I swam in a bathing suit and then I was putting on my shorts, putting on my shirt, putting on my tennis shoes or my just my running shoes. So I had to tie them up because I had the cage pedals but I had the fastest T2 because I was like so much time in T1 to get ready.
Speaker 1:And how did that first triathlon go? What was your experience of it and why did it set you up to do what you've ended up doing for your career?
Speaker 3:My experience was really just having fun and I'm not sure I can say that like, besides being introduced to triathlon, I don't think I really would have picked that to be like the part that initiated everything else. I probably would have just kind of like kept doing that type of triathlon or like more local races, just like with my dad. But the thing that got me serious into triathlon was USA Triathlons Collegiate Recruitment Program and that when I was in university I was running Division I but I had this background in swimming and my times were like that's super fast in swimming but they were solid enough to kind of catch their eye. And so when I was, I did my fourth year of running but I still had one more year of eligibility because I had redshirted, so I had still. I had like my outdoor season for a fifth year and within that timeframe USA Triathlon recruited me saying like hey, like we see, we see what your skill set is now and we think we can teach you how to, how to ride a bike.
Speaker 3:And so it wasn't really until that that I would say like that really set my, set me up for like, oh, this is some well a triathlons, olympics sport. I didn't know that, like a few years earlier, I didn't really know that it could be something that I would do as a living, but probably what the like South Carol race with my dad did was just like. I really enjoyed having the three different disciplines. As a swimmer and runner, I would always just kind of get bored, especially with track and like running around in circles or swimming, just like staring at the line. So triathlon really really suited me in the sense that it just kept me on my toes and kept me, kept me entertained throughout.
Speaker 1:And how was that going to that first Olympic trials? Or sorry, not the, the, the, the program that you just described sorry, I've forgotten its name Collegiate recruitment program, that's. Thank you, how was that? I know you had a long trek to get there, but tell me about that experience of kind of like the build up to it and that first experience of being there.
Speaker 3:Well, I've kind of fell into like, as I was getting out of running division one, the collegiate recruitment program was evolving so like at the time that I was in college it was really like bare bones. They would kind of give you a coach to get you into triathlon, but there wasn't much set up for you beyond that. But because of Gwen Jorgensen and she had been in the collegiate recruitment program and she'd been coming up and doing really well, they were putting a lot more resources into funding this program and so while I was getting into it, it was starting to evolve into like a bigger thing. And by the time I like finished with college or university, I was debating like okay, now what do I want to do? I got my degree in physical education. Do I want to go teach? I was applying to grad schools to go into like health education as well and community health. And then I had this option now from the USA Triathlon to basically come out to the Olympic Training Center and like commit to there and really try to give triathlon a fair chance of me qualifying for the Olympics.
Speaker 3:And you have to understand like for me I didn't grow up wanting to be an Olympian because I always was like what, do you know how many people make the Olympics? Like I was pretty big, like not a cynic, but like I just knew it wasn't, like it was a risk to go into triathlon versus physical education, to be a teacher, or like I couldn't guarantee what my, what my outcome was or what my future would look like in that. But I also knew that's an opportunity that you don't get a lot of and that it would be silly not to say yes and take the chance. So I said yes, my dad agreed to drive with me out to Colorado Springs from Maryland, which is about a 24 hour drive and we are not the type to just like go all in for the trip. So we split it up into about four days, I think.
Speaker 3:Stopping along the way there's some bad weather, football games we were he was wanting to watch, so and then, right about an hour from getting into Colorado Springs, I said dad, I don't want to do this, let's go home.
Speaker 3:Because I was scared and it was. It was a lot of unknown to me and I mean just thinking about the Olympics like, and Olympians like that's that's pretty daunting, or just yeah, it was just nerve wracking to say that could be me or that that was something I wanted to do and my dad and I'm been very lucky with my parents are amazing and he had told me. He said well, katie, like, give it a shot, stay the first like week or so, and if you don't like it, then I'll fly back out. We'll drive back home together. Like it was a no risk type scenario because all I had to do was give it a shot and if I didn't like it, then we would just do something different and pivot. But I think by him saying that it just freed me to try and with no expectations from him, and like it just opened up the doors for me and I never ended up calling him to come pick me up.
Speaker 1:I kind of guessed that bit at the end. So what do you class as your first big success? What's your first big success in the sport?
Speaker 3:I would probably say my first World Cup win in Palamos.
Speaker 3:And it's funny because I had just gotten into the sport and I think it was probably like my third or fourth race, like I hadn't done more than five races as a professional by that point, so I didn't really understand what that actually meant like of winning a World Cup, being so fresh into the sport.
Speaker 3:But now when I think about it, like I can look at that achievement as probably like the first time where I was like, oh quite did, quite well. Also, my first two like professional races and continental cups. They were a little advanced because Joel Filial, who is actually now my coach, his squad was training in Florida at that time, so his whole squad was going to Claremont and Sarasota to race, which are typically like the lowest level of racing. But you had, like Sarah True there, alicia Kay, like Hella Friedrichson, paul, like all these, like people who wouldn't typically be racing that level of racing. So it was a. It was a. It was a good continental cup to start with, because I think it just set my expectations of what the level is of racing really high.
Speaker 1:And did you like, because you had success so quickly Did that sort of? Was that a help for you from a development point of view, or was it in some ways a hindrance as well, because maybe you thought you'd got somewhere that you hadn't quite.
Speaker 3:At that point it was really smooth for me that transition, and I think part of it was I was still learning the sport, so I didn't even though I was achieving things and doing well in my races, I still didn't have quite the comprehension of what that meant.
Speaker 3:So it wasn't like I felt like I was crushing it at that time because I knew there was still higher places to get and I had like I hadn't actually achieved like racing at the like World Triathlon Championship Series level or like going to the Olympics at that point. So for me I feel like I was just taking it step by step, as just like I'm still trying to figure out the sport. So I didn't have any pressure. I didn't or I didn't feel pressure at least at that point, not not in the same way that I would in a few years Because it was really just like kind of figuring out, like hey, like what am I doing, what is this? Like how do you draft on the bike, like how do you travel, how? Like? It was just a lot of new things for me. So I was really centered in that and I was really present, I think because I just couldn't be looking forward, because I didn't know what that looked like.
Speaker 1:Brilliant, and I'd love you to tell me. There's two stories that really stood out for me when I was listening to you speak. The first was the contrast between having a crash in I think it was Tokyo and then, two weeks later, becoming World Champion. So that to me stood out as an incredible turnaround from disappointment to success. Tell us about that story first.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I had one of my best years in 2019. I was winning multiple races. I've been on the podium consistently for years before that and kind of like climbing my way up in the World Traff on series ranking, but I hadn't won consistently. And so 2019, I was winning consistently, feeling really good, going into the Tokyo test event, which was in August of 2019. Prior to the Olympics being pushed back a year, and in the race I like pretty early on in the bike I believe I ended up crashing and it was a really silly crash, like I was going straight. I never like I thought I would crash going straight, but I did into a barrier and I ended up getting like 23 stitches in my mouth, having a pretty big impact to, like my arm and my leg, and not finishing the race, ending up in the hospital instead, and I was pretty like there was a lot of feelings at that point because I remember, like being in the ambulance trying to like hear how the Americans did, to know how many Americans qualified for the Olympics in that race, and then also like, regardless of the Olympics and who was going to be selected, there was also the World Championship that I'd set myself up really well before the Tokyo test event to claim at the end of the year. And so when I'm in it I was like, oh shoot, did I just like ruin my chance of going to the Olympics and ruin my chance of like being World Champion? And so I like was mostly fine. Besides, like my mouth and my and I broke my nose, but like I was mostly fine and I also have learned, unfortunately because I crashed other times with my face as well, but the face heals very quickly. But at the same time what it did was it hit my confidence that I'd kind of grown to have on the bike with my, my skills and being confident and going into Lausanne, which is was the grand final.
Speaker 3:It was only a couple of weeks later. It was a pretty technical course and I remember talking to my sports psychologist before it and just like trying to physically recover at the same time I'm trying to mentally recover from from the Tokyo test event crash. And I was talking to her and she's like, well, maybe your goal is just to get around the course safely. I'm like I've never had that as a goal, like leave. Like prior to the race, I mean like now you're like, well, that's a pretty good goal. But like that wasn't what I was thinking.
Speaker 3:And so my mantra became, instead of thinking about all the deficits and all like where my brain was that with not feeling confident. I decided to kind of switch that and said, ok, like well, if I need to be more conservative going into the corner, I'm strong enough to make it up on the flats, or I'm strong enough to do it on the hills. So it's taking places where I wasn't feeling super confident and maybe second guessing myself and turning it into like well, I'm still like powerful, I can, I can handle these challenges, I suppose. And so when I actually got on this start line for Lizanne, like I did like my normal, luckily my body healed itself like enough to like feel mostly good. Still had like a lot of nerves, but recognize that like that's OK, like hey, I'm always nervous before races, so a little extra nerves is fine.
Speaker 3:And then just like having the confidence that I put in the work, that I was ready and Joel also my coach, like I'm surrounded by an amazing group of people. So I think that should also help because Joel, who obviously knew I was I had been doing really well in the races prior to this. He like never put the pressure on me to be like you need to like. It was basically to like let's see what we can do, let's see what position we can put you in going into Lizanne.
Speaker 3:But it was never like outcome based, it was always just come back to your process, come back to your process and that's what I did. And in the race, like, yeah, I had a, had a really good race, I had to finish, I think, fourteenth to claim the world championship, but instead I ended up winning it, which is probably like. I mean, tokyo was amazing, because winning medals is really cool, but Lizanne is probably one of the best well like feelings I've had. Also, my dad and my mom and my husband were all there for that and I was just really neat to, like you said, be able to bounce back after something that I thought could affect my champions, of becoming a world champion.
Speaker 1:I think go on Claire.
Speaker 2:It was really interesting to hear about and we often talk about sort of psychology behind the athlete and going into races. Just from what you've described, do you think that you're working with a sports psychologist but also developing your own psychology, since that crash has that kind of developed over time? So do you have a kind of a way of thinking or a strategy going into races now that's maybe developed over time or from events like the crash for example?
Speaker 3:For sure. So, like before, basically Rio in 2016, well, in high school and college, I never worked on my mental side of things. I actually probably went the opposite direction and saw it as like a weakness if I needed to work on it, which probably told me that, like now, looking back, I'm like well, that probably means I should have worked on it then and then, like, going into Rio, like I saw the value in it, but I don't think I really knew what place it had in my training. So I would, I would use like sports psychology and talk to support psychologists more reactively. So it would be like if I was like freaking out or getting really nervous about the race, I'd be like oh, I want to talk to someone, like and that changed after Rio A lot of. I feel like I took Rio and I really reflected on it in a lot of ways and it was like a big catalyst for my like how my career developed after that. But one part of that was I realized I wanted to talk to a sports psychologist more regularly and I wanted to speak to a sports psychologist that I felt was a good fit for me not necessarily the one, the first one who was kind of like presented to me or like said like oh, this person can talk to you. I actually sent an email to the USO PC like mental health services, and I said like hi, like I'm Katie and these are what I consider my strengths and weaknesses, like who do you think would be a good fit for me? And that was that was a big part of.
Speaker 3:I talked to Karen Kogan and I've been talking to her since Rio and we basically talked to her, probably not so much during the off season but during the racing season, probably like twice, twice a month or so, and she's always there for me, like if I need anything more. So, for instance, after the crash, I think I talked to her a little bit more between the two races, and so I feel like the I just think now how much the mental side of things really separates the athletes in what they're capable of doing. And I feel like the other thing I've learned is like I had ideas about the different skills involved with different mental strategies, but I had this idea of how they were supposed to be done. Like visualization, I was like, oh, you visualize for swimming and you need to visualize like your whole race, like down, to like the second. You touch the wall, which probably is amazing and some people do.
Speaker 3:But for me, like I actually have my sports psychologists do guided visualizations, or I write out, because I really like to write and have like a journal and do handwritten things, and so I'll like actually write out my race before it happens, and it's pretty incredible to me to like now look back on those Like I think I wrote out LaZan and like my Tokyo race, and to have those to look back on now and it just helps me be really clear about what that process is. It's never like I want to be like first place, like that's not. That's not what I'm thinking about. It's more thinking about like everything, everything else.
Speaker 2:And do you find yourself sort of going back to that in races. So can you easily kind of transport yourself there in terms of thinking about that process when you're racing. So if things aren't going quite as you were imagining, are you able to kind of go back there and sort of think your way through it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I feel like I have enough strategies now that I can. So, like the main strategies I would say I use are, like visualization before the race, segmenting during the race, mantras during the race and probably a whole bunch of others. But I read a book I'd let your mind run by Dina Kasser and I'd recommend it to everybody, because something she says and that really resonated with me was you have like a toolbox. It's not necessarily like one strategy that works for you all the time, but it's a toolbox of mental strategies and you're just shifting through and one may help you for like half a second and but like another one might be able to help you for a couple of minutes. But it's being able to have a robust toolbox so that, as like things happen, you can rely on that to pull out what you need and kind of channel through each of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is absolutely, really important and I really wanted to chat to you about this whole visualization concept. So I love the idea of journaling visualization. I think that I've not heard anybody doing it that way before, you know if for a race. So I love that and I think I can see why that would work really really well. So I'm definitely going to take that away. But how do you also sit there and kind of mentally kind of visualize the race in advance of it? And if you do, kind of, what's that process look like?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so when I do it mentally, when I'm doing my visualization, it's as long as I can like do that and not be distracted and like have like clear visual thoughts. So I'll go to writing when I can't, when I'm having trouble focusing and when I need to like I'm like just closing my eyes isn't working, like I'll start writing it, just so I it's clear I'm doing it. I'm going through like those motions and then and then also the guided visualizations where I'll talk to my sports. Second, I'll tell her like these are my key things that I want to do, and then she'll give me like so I can put in my headphones and listen to her kind of talk me through a race and I'll fill in the gaps with it. So those are the three, I would say, styles of visualization I use and it starts from when I Well, it can start before I even get to the race, but it starts specifically like getting to the venue, like being able to like see what it looks like. I mean, a lot of our venues we go to multiple times, so, like the more I've been to the races, sometimes I can piece together that part of the visualization better than other races that I haven't been to Like how I feel seen. I'll visualize like how I feel seen competitors and how I like the nerves I have before the race or how my warm up goes, because actually that's like probably like setting the tone for the race, is like all those initial feelings before you even get to the start line and like if you can kind of like feel them or be aware of them, then that makes me feel better come race day because I'm like well, I already like knew this was going to feel this way, so it still feels uncomfortable, but it's not a surprise and it's not like saying anything negative about my preparation. It's just kind of like this is, this is how it is for me.
Speaker 3:Like other people might feel super stoked to go into racing and when people are like are you excited to race?
Speaker 3:And like Not really, like I like it once I'm doing it and then.
Speaker 3:So then visualizing like kind of my key things that I want to do, so a lot of that's like getting out fast in the in the first part of the swim and kind of like moving out forward, focus on the first buoy and being okay with like contact, like making contact with other people in the water and just like then visualizing coming out of the water and going into transition, like really going through, like goggles and cap in the box, like helmet on, like go like grab the bike and go, and I think between also that it's like being rehearsed so many different times in my head and also having like clear, like language of like specifically for transition, when you're like goggles and cap and box helmet on, grab the bike and go, like it makes it a lot more, a lot less distracting, or like feel like you have to be doing a lot more.
Speaker 3:And then, yeah, going through the bike and, depending on my visualizations, I would say they can take anywhere from like five minutes to like 15 or 20 minutes and and, yeah, just kind of keep going through the whole race in that way. And then, when I finish the race, usually like take the moment to like re, re, like reiterate, like oh, you just finished the race, you gave it your all, like I. And then go through again like I had a good swim where I like got out fast and like kind of break down those key components as I cross the finish line, saying what I did well and like kind of like an open, grateful heart of like being there with like Tommy and Kimball and like my family and teammates and coach and everything, and then yeah, and then it's done.
Speaker 1:Brilliant.
Speaker 2:It's great to hear the way that you kind of talk through it and I you know, I you know the fact that you kind of get get to the end and then you go through the positives about it as well and not actually visualizing necessarily getting to the end of the race and winning or being, you know, being on the podium, but it's, yeah, it's really good to hear how, how you do and actually how often you're doing it as well.
Speaker 1:It made me think, and I can't remember where I've heard this recently, but it was in a business context rather than a sporting context and it was around people particularly like the example I think was public speaking. So you know, you clearly know that you're going to get nervous before a race, because you kind of document that so that when you then feel nervous it's not a surprise. Do you also ever try and kind of basically try and tell yourself you know, I know, those nerves are actually part of the excitement of getting to race. Do you try and kind of reaffirm those feelings into other feelings that are good ones as opposed to perhaps negative ones?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the most common one I do is nerves mean I'm ready, nerves mean I care, and so that that's kind of what I put put with it. And actually now it's almost like if I'm not nervous, and I get nervous Because I'm so used to having that- Brilliant, okay, fantastic.
Speaker 1:And the second story which you've kind of just touched on skirtingly, is the contrast, I think, between your performance in Rio and your performance in Tokyo. So perhaps you can tell us a little bit about how you know. You've kind of you've told us about how Rio didn't go according to plan and how sport psychology helped you as a result of that. But how did then tell us about Tokyo? But maybe with with the contrast of Rio, yeah.
Speaker 3:So in Rio I would say like I was just coming off like a really great. I won my first World Trial on series event. Like the race, before going to Rio I was like had been on multiple podiums consistently so I would have considered myself like a podium contender for for the Rio Olympics. But going into the race and we'd done the Rio Test event, so I kind of knew it. But I still didn't feel like super comfortable because everyone was talking about this deep uphill on the bike which I didn't have a problem with, but the thing that got me was the downhill on the other side and it just made me super anxious. I didn't feel confident with it and really my mind was just revolving around that downhill which was probably like I mean, I think it was a 10 lap bike and it probably was less than five minutes total of the like two hour race. So but that's what kind of what. I was stuck on and just nervous and I was like at the Olympics, but I was really focused on the race and I didn't want to think about the excitement of the Olympics because I wanted it to be like race oriented and just like. So I was just really kind of all visioned, I think, towards my actual race. And then I did the race and I finished like I mean, I did okay on the bike, I stayed with the group, the main group but then when I got to the run I didn't like do anything. I had a pretty bad run and I think part of that is I just like I was so focused on my deficits on the hill and like not feeling confident on that that I didn't even think about the run and the run felt long and hard to. And then I finished and I was disappointed with myself, with with the race and then also because we were the second to last day of the Olympics and I was basically over and I just kind of missed it. And I was. We went to the closing ceremonies and that was really cool but I just felt like I didn't take in the Olympics as I would have wanted to and like when you think of people thinking of the Olympics and how I think of the Olympics, like it's an amazing experience and it's something that you really should like really lean into that, the fact that you get to have this experience. But I just kind of like missed it. And so afterwards I was kind of.
Speaker 3:There was like a lot of reflections, like I said, and a few of them were talking to a sports psychologist having like a nutritionist more more regularly, speaking like doing, doing strength, finding a strength person to also do more consistently, putting in like bike skills more intentionally. We would, we would do bike skills, but not in like the same way as a race and and those were like a few things. And then obviously, with the sports psychologist working on the mental side of things. But the other part of it was, if I ever get the opportunity to go to another Olympics which I definitely did not take for granted that that was going to be something that I would get to experience again then I want to experience it and I want to take in the whole atmosphere of the Olympics and what it means to be there, no matter what my result is, because the result isn't going to last that long like, but having the feelings of everything else really, and so for me, going into Tokyo a lot of people like there's a lot of negative pieces around it with COVID and how the isolation no fans, no family which definitely was impactful to the whole atmosphere, but at the same time that took before I did well at my race. Like I love that we got to be in the Olympic Village. I love that we got to because our other in Rio. We were about an hour and a half or so from from the village, so we stayed at our venue instead for up leading into the race. But I love that we have to be around that. I loved like being with the USA team and I felt like we had such good camaraderie in Tokyo and like supportive one another and just like really like being with the moment. And especially because my lead up into the Tokyo Olympics was really bad, like my dad passed away in April of 2021 and the Olympics was in July of 2021 and I got selected by discretion in June. So like there wasn't a lead in that you would, you would want or like you always want to make it as early as possible and so to come away from Tokyo like a I felt like I just pulled from all my experiences, from like the like how many years of doing I guess like eight years of doing triathlon professionally where, within the race, like I was like I've raced races in the rain.
Speaker 3:I felt like I was adaptable because I've done this race like be ready, like don't get too far ahead of yourself, because you come off the bike in a good position, like you really need to like keep that position for the run and so like I think that was the coolest thing. Finishing the video was I just felt like I did everything right. I felt like I was so grateful for being at another Olympics and having to get like really cool experiences and taking it all in. And then I thought on the race course I just like use everything I'd learned and I said I was probably like the happiest bronze medalist there ever was. And I still feel that way and I don't know if that would have been different another year, like if 2019, because I felt like I was in a better place, probably physically and like my performances. So I think Tokyo was special in that way was it was under pretty unsavory circumstances and still being able to race like myself?
Speaker 1:And how did the two medals compare to you? How did the two kind of, because obviously you got the team, the team relay as well how did they to both compare? How do you compare them in your mind?
Speaker 3:Oh, it's so hard because they're very special in very different ways. The bronze medal individual is, I think, just I was so proud of myself for like being able to put that together when, like, my lead in was really not great and I mean not, and that wasn't physically like training, training, bounce back, that like probably like a month and a half, like leading into the Olympics. I was having really solid sessions, but the year definitely wasn't, believe like 2021. Leading into the Olympics definitely wasn't very good.
Speaker 3:So I and I had two of my worst races right after the Olympics probably of my career, and swims especially so like going into Tokyo, I was like had to manage the nerves I had around the swim because I'd had such terrible swims and both Yokohama and leads, which were the two races that led into the Olympics. So basically it was my mantra going into the Olympics was I know how to do this. Like and just like remind myself that I know what I'm doing and I can do it well. And like, when we drove in for Tokyo for the start of the individual race, I had been practicing the stars with like like just layer month and Georgia Taylor Brown and summer rap before and when, when we got into the race, like it was such a smooth, clear start and surely there's like this other pack to the left of us, like there must be more people coming, and I like read to the left and it was clear and I was like, oh my gosh, like how am I like third, like third, like it was just maybe some I don't actually know who's in front of me and then I was the third person and so I think like, yeah it, I feel like the individual race it was just I was most proud of that.
Speaker 3:But then also for the mixed team relay, it was amazing to do that and be part of history in the sense that it never was an like hadn't been in the Olympics before then and with a team for USA Triathlon that I don't think anyone would have put together. If the Olympics would have happened as it should have in 2020, I don't think that anyone would have expected our team to be the team and I was so proud of each of us because we'd all gone through our own things and were able to. It was just a resilient team, I think as well, so they are both equally special and I'm not going to choose which one.
Speaker 1:What about Paris next?
Speaker 3:We're trying for it. I never thought I was going to come back after starting a family, but I also really like my job and I was like well, we're going to see how it goes. And I think one of the things I've realized is, if something's not working, you can always pivot. And I mean not working in the sense like if it's not the right balance for, like me and my family. But so far we've done like five races, I think, and Kimball's gone to all of them and my mom or a friend has traveled with us.
Speaker 3:Tommy's been there as well, but he works at the races, so we always have to bring an extra support person and it's been amazing and I reflect on it, thinking like wow, I can't imagine if we would have just not had like, not done this, how much we would be missing out on, because it's pretty special just having like specifically like Kimball, experience it where I know he's.
Speaker 3:He's only 11 months old, so I don't know how much of it he'll remember. But, like, some of my favorite things is basically at every race we've gone to, it's like the staff at the hotel or like breakfast or a cafe, and they are smitten with Kimball and take him like they'll just pick him up, take him away, talk to him in Spanish or Italian or whatever language and like it's, my favorite thing is just seeing him meet new people and really like experience other cultures and also be a part of my triathlon community and meet, like my friends, my coaches, my competitors all like all the staff there, all the officials, like basically everyone. Was World Triathlon and I just think that's so special because triathlon has shaped me and been there for me in the best times and the worst times, and I'd be sad if Kimball missed out on it.
Speaker 1:Brilliant, and we've heard a few people on this podcast talk about baby EPO. I think it gets termed as have you seen any, any performance difference coming back since having Kimball?
Speaker 3:I know. I mean, I don't think so I would. I would say it is much harder and I don't feel like a superwoman and my training wouldn't show that I'm a superwoman. It's a lot more challenging, like logistically, and I think there's something to be like. I think, like when people talk about like mom power, like I for sure think that there's something to that, but it's mainly because you're just, I feel like you just have to be a lot stronger to be able to balance, like having a kid traveling and racing and training and being able to do like all of that well.
Speaker 1:You think? Going back to the sports psychology, do you think it also impacts your why?
Speaker 3:Probably.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think I go into.
Speaker 3:Well, I think there's a couple reasons for that, one of them being I never really expected to come back, and I also, like I guess I'm back to kind of when I first started track on in mentality of like, well, excuse me, like this is a very big challenge and this is a really new lifestyle and a new process for me.
Speaker 3:And I don't quite know what I'm doing like on a day to day basis with Kimball, like we're learning as we go with figuring out that balance, and so I think it really makes you have to be present in it.
Speaker 3:And the other part of that is when you finish, like you're saying, like, no matter how I feel about my race, kimball's there, like smiling at me with my mom, who like, or, like I said, a friend or any like support person who comes with us, and it just I feel like I've kind of learned over the years to go into racing and training and all these experiences with a lot of gratitude, but like even more so now, like the fact that we get to do this with him but also the people that make it possible to do it with him, because if it was just me and Tommy, there's absolutely no way like we would be able to keep doing this and keep doing it at a high level, but luckily we have, like, a lot of amazing people in our life and I think that's what keeps it into perspective for me.
Speaker 2:How do you just think about? You were talking about like well, I was about to say work life balance, and it is a work life balance For lots of athletes, like particularly triathletes that are trying to kind of train, have a family life. They come home from work, they're cooking, trying to cook for their children and family. How does all that work? I appreciate he's only 11 months old, but how does that work at home on a day to day basis in terms of fitting in your training between the two of you looking after a child, getting food? So from my background, I'm always interested to know how do people fit in making meals, making sure they're kind of eating around, family and training life?
Speaker 3:Well, we have help on all of it. So, like one of the things with USA Triathlon is that they have given us a lot of support that we can use kind of as needed. But one of those things that I've kind of figured out with Kimball is trying to figure out where I need to manage my energy and what I would need support on and what I can do well myself and balance. So like I think the biggest hit like we take as like parents or like athletes, it's basically the recovery, like I don't recover because that part is there's no time when I'm like either like I'm either engaged in training or I'm engaged with Kimball and like there's not that much time to actually recover. So I feel like that's like the biggest hit. But for nutrition, I actually. So I was talking to a dietitian earlier this year when I realized like I need some help. I'm not making good choices, I'm tired and can you help me with meal planning. And so she did. She did a great job. She gave me like all the plan, the grocery list. All of the meals were super easy and not very time consuming to make, but I was still like just not doing them and just like going back. And so she's like, would it help if I like brought the meals over to you at the beginning of the week and like they were already, like all you had to do was put them in a pan, basically, and you'd have them in your freezer so they'd be ready? I'm like, oh yeah, like that would probably help, but like so that was something that that was a huge factor and, like you said, just because nutrition, I do think, is so big into performance and like I don't follow any strict diet but at the same time, I want to make sure that I'm eating good food like majority of the time, and so that's been super helpful and she's been doing that.
Speaker 3:We also have a babysitter come, like basically six out of seven days and it'll be for like four hours from on average, and that'll allow, like me to go train Tommy to be on his work call or Tommy to train with me, like on the weekends.
Speaker 3:We just started having someone come in so that he can run, tommy can run with me and bike with me, and so that took a lot of time to figure out, like what we need, and I think I felt some of that mom guilt of like bringing in a babysitter for like the week, especially like on a weekend, just because I feel like it's like unconventional to like have your like, have your kid be like watched by someone. But also because, like Tommy and I in theory could figure it out, we're like we wouldn't necessarily need childcare, based off like we could adapt our schedules to make it work that one of us was watching it. But we realized we like needed the needed the help. And we still get to do a lot with Kimball, like in the sense of well in general, but like I was thinking more of training, like Tommy will like run out to me with Kimball and the well I want to say stroller, but you guys don't call it in the buggy.
Speaker 1:We know what you mean.
Speaker 3:And so, like for my long run the other day I did, I ran from the house and started doing my workout and then Tommy drives out with Kimball to a parking spot and they because we can run from my house, from our house, all on greenways to another trail. They come the opposite direction on the trail and then to the greenway and so we do that probably like at least three times a week and it's really nice because it, like I just said, like a lot of different ways. But I love destination runs, I love having company and I love Kimball getting out and I love doing it with my family. So like it's just like we were definitely figuring things out.
Speaker 2:Like formulating new, new routines and new habits. Isn't it Just having to change? Having to change things?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and also like for racing. It was really different for me because I'm like someone who really shuts down race week, where I really just like doing my own thing. I don't, I don't really like to conform to anyone else's schedule and I just like quiet time and just to like chill. And that's obviously not happening with an 11. Like, at least not with our 11 month old. He's quite busy, he's walking around and, well, basically running, he likes chase.
Speaker 3:So now it's like all leading into the race, like it'll just be like a normal balance up until basically like the Thursday and Friday before, where, like I started to learn how to better communicate what my needs are, where I'm just like, okay, can you have Kimball from like nine to 12, and just like I'm going to go train and I'm going to just have some like time to myself and then like we'll come back to the pool or something. And then like the same thing, like the day, like normally the day before the race, my mom will, or whoever it is, will be like on like pretty much full Kimball duty on the day before the race and race morning.
Speaker 1:The wonderful thing and challenging thing about children is the minor quite a lot older than yours is that just when you think you've got that schedule and routine sussed, it then changes again. It's like it's an ever moving target. But when they're at this stage it's lovely that there's you've got that flexibility having you. One of the things that I've heard you reference a few times when I've been listening to other interviews is you mentioned goal setting quite a lot. So I'm a massive fan of setting goals and not just having systems to set goals, but obviously systems to achieve them as well. Tell me a little bit about why you see goal setting as important and also how you go about goal setting. Is there any structural system or you know? Tell me what it means to you.
Speaker 3:So goal setting to me means the process of the race or training. I tend to, I guess, do it a little bit more concretely with races where I'll have, and I guess it's definitely goal setting.
Speaker 3:Okay, I was questioning whether it was goal setting or not, but we're all like right out about 8 to 10 specific things within the race that I would like to achieve or I would like to do. Well, and my relationship with goal setting is, I think it just makes it really clear what my intent is in the race and also, so, like a lot of the times for me it will have to do with, like I said, like getting out fast to the first movie, like having urgent transitions, like working on my gearing in and out of cornering or positioning, like coming into T2 and like with our type of racing, especially when their goals on the bikes we have about 8 to 10 laps in an Olympic distance race, and so being aware that I may not crush it every single corner, but having those goals in my head each time and this kind of is a little out of what you asked me, but I think what I learned also with racing is it's kind of like I do much better with a see what I can do mindset than like I need to do this and using racing as like practice more so than a test. I feel like my relationship with racing prior to a few years ago was like a pass fail, like if I don't do well at the end of the race, then that was like a failed race or that that was that was bad, or like, and walk away really, really disappointed. And I can still be disappointed after a race that doesn't go like as well or that I don't do what I would like to do. But I think I have a lot more healthy of a relationship with racing now where I don't feel like it's a reflection of my worth. I don't feel like it's a reflection of my even my capabilities. I feel like it's just like a good example or a good way to see where I'm at and what I need to improve on.
Speaker 3:And the other great thing about triathlon that I love is there's always something you can reflect on within your races that went well and there's always things that you can reflect on that you need to work on. And so I feel like, with my goal setting, it's trying to hit those eight to 10 things within the race and then also be able to finish the race and reflect on like okay, like what, what? Well, what do we need to work on? What was this race specifically? And what is like? Do we need to change the whole system? Like, because I feel like sometimes you can be really reactive after a race and I don't always think that's healthy where it's just like one race where you didn't do something super well. So it's kind of like, should we change anything in training or do we just need to wait till, like, things just go better another day? Slash, you consume like all the, all the training and all the effort that you're putting in.
Speaker 1:Brilliant, and I think that kind of it reminds me of a quote and I might be a Tony Robbins quote, but it's essentially there's good experiences and learning experiences, which is essentially what you're saying, isn't it? It's not just about the outcome, it's about learning from the ones that didn't go quite according to plan. Is all of your goal setting short because that was all very race like? My goals for this specific race is quite short term goals. Do you do longer term goal setting as well, sort of like three year goals, one year goals, that sort of stuff, or is that less important to you?
Speaker 3:I would say it's probably less important to me only because I think I'm pretty like clear with it in without doing it. But at the same time, I have a passion planner. That's my like normal day to day planner and it actually has it for you so that you do it like leading into the year where it has your like well, I can't remember now, but it's like actually I think it's on my, I think it's almost halfway through the year. So it's actually what I should be doing, probably this week. But like three year, five year, 10 year goals, what would you like to like achieve in? I think one is three to six months or something.
Speaker 3:So and I that would be like I would do that, and also when we do with USA triathlon, they send out like an athlete I forget what they call it, but basically something we need to fill out with our goals for the year every single year. So we at that point, like I'll think about like more long term goals and again, I still try to stay away from it's usually just my shorter process goals expanded Like the things I want to do better, like a lot of the times. We'll also be still working on bike skills and being like more confident and comfortable and doing that well. And it still isn't about like, like, like qualifying for the Olympics or like that. I usually won't write on it.
Speaker 1:I was hoping you were going to tell me a story of, like 10 years ago. You wrote down that you were going to appear at three Olympics or something, and this was the materialization of but apparently not.
Speaker 3:No, I did write and we wanted to have a family and that's happened.
Speaker 1:So there you go, the magic of achieving goals.
Speaker 3:Actually I would have to look back. If I did write, maybe I'll get back to you on what one looked at three years ago, and because the thing I probably haven't done on the longer term ones is follow up quite as much to see where I'm like, where I'm at with it. So I'll get back to you.
Speaker 1:That is a good practice to do. It's really good. I've been writing down my goals every quarter for probably now 16 years and when you go back and look at the goals that I was setting 16 years ago, that seemed like massive, unachievable goals. They're all pretty, they're all, they're all done. So it's yeah, it's a really it's a therapeutic exercise to do Now. I know you're well read. You've mentioned one book already. Let your mind run, but we can't. We always ask for book recommendations on on this on this podcast. So any other books that you found to be really helpful in your journey or find yourself recommending.
Speaker 3:I really like mind gym.
Speaker 1:Mind gym.
Speaker 3:Mind gym. It's like oh.
Speaker 1:Don't worry, we can Google it afterwards.
Speaker 3:Yeah, which is a pretty simple book, but it's like one that as I read it really resonated with me, like the different, it gives a lot of different skills, type things. And then, oh, what's the Excuse me? The one when it's like the day, like the daily habits, atomic habits, yes, by James Clear.
Speaker 1:What did you, what did you take from atomic habits?
Speaker 3:Just that it doesn't have to be very big and that like or like vast goals or like your habits can start.
Speaker 3:Actually, that was one of the reasons I started doing like 10 minutes of core a day, because it's like I feel like a lot of people will skip things because they're like, well, that's too big of a commitment or I'm not able to like go to the gym for 30 minutes to an hour and so trying to do like making little things seem worthwhile and also stacking of those habits so that like I would do a checklist in my planner of like I mean it would probably say like 10 minutes a core, take a nap, take like your vitamins, do visualization, have like Quality time with Tommy, like those are kind of be like daily, like Checklist things I would do.
Speaker 3:And what I realized is that like I could do all of them from like 8pm, like and beyond, and like get like a sign that I mean besides, I'm not going to take an 8pm nap, but like you could, you could pretty much get all of those different things that I thought I felt were like in like Life or day enhancing. You could do them all in a really short amount of time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love atomic habits. I think it's a great book and I think the habit stacking concept is is fantastic. So that's brilliant. And one of the one of the traditions we've got on this podcast is to get the previous guests to ask the next guest a question without knowing who that guest will be. So the last guest was seven times world obstacle racing champion, a guy called Ian Adamson, and I think Claire's got his question lined up for you.
Speaker 2:So Ian asked what do you do in your athletic life that makes your home life better?
Speaker 3:I feel like it's a lot with the mental side of things and just like having awareness and trying to stay present and like everything.
Speaker 3:I would say everything I've learned on the mental side of things with sport has transferred to like home life, and that that would probably be the bigger takeaway. And how, from all the mental skills I've learned, is just how it impacts my day to day life of like being like less reactive and more like patient and more adaptable and being able to break things down into smaller, like more manageable pieces day to day and just being like taking life as a learning experience, I would say, where I used to think like life had to go a certain way to be considered successful. And now I realize like, specifically, if I decide that racing at the highest level and being a mom to Kimball isn't for me, like that doesn't mean I've failed. It just means it's not for me and I can do something different. And so I think that's been like my biggest takeaway and from so probably just the mental strategy and doing like sports psychology Brilliant, I love that I suppose to like make it a smaller answer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, I love that.
Speaker 2:Great answer.
Speaker 1:And one of the other things that we've just started for this season of the podcast is to get asked to ask listeners to pose a question again without knowing who they're posing the question for, and James has come in with an absolute brilliant question. So in the world of cycling I don't know if this translates to to the US or not In the world of cycling we have a saying that is N plus one, where the right number of bikes to own is N plus one, where the current number of bikes is N. So, in other words, you always need one more bike other than bikes and perhaps it's not bikes for you, as it might be for me, but is there another item in your life where you apply the N plus one principle where you can never really have quite enough of them? There's always room for one more.
Speaker 3:Well, I really have to think about this. Also, when I first heard this question, I had to Google it and what comes up is something about atoms and physics and I'm like I don't know any of this. Ok, so other advice, what I'm trying to think of, what I lose the most oh, it's a tough question for me.
Speaker 2:I guess it doesn't have to be in sport actually it could be in life. So is there something that you always need one more of?
Speaker 3:I would say pens, mm Pens or pencils.
Speaker 1:Nice pens or just lots of pens.
Speaker 3:Like fine tip pens, fine, but it doesn't have to be like I can buy them from like the dollar store, but they have to like write the right way. That makes sense.
Speaker 1:Excellent, very good.
Speaker 3:For your journaling books? Yeah, for my like. So I have my gratitude journal, I do, I have my planner, and then we started a book for Kimball where I write notes to Kimball that I hope he reads when he's older. So those are my main, and then just like my lists, lists on lists of things.
Speaker 1:And always, always written, not digital.
Speaker 3:Obviously, we did find that we had to. As for family life, we had to put a Google calendar together because unfortunately, my written planner doesn't transfer to Tommy always. So we were having some communication challenges because I'm like, oh, I wrote it down, but like he's not a family planner.
Speaker 1:And one question to finish off. You are a very seasoned traveler. You travel. Every time I've heard you seem to be in a different part of the world. Have you got any tips that you know for those of us that are kind of traveling to races but not that often? Have you got any tips that you found to really help you kind of dial in that kind of making sure that you don't forget anything, making sure it's painless, whether you know, maybe jet lag, all of that sort of stuff Any travel tips for people out there?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've got lots of them, I feel like, but a few that I feel like are probably the most important are with jet lag. As soon as you get somewhere, like never look back. You are now on whatever time you have just arrived in, and if you are like extremely tired, I would say don't take a nap. But, like, if you're extremely tired and need to take a nap, like be like 20 minutes and then don't don't push news. Like get up, go outside, like do something so that you can stay up. I also, if you can and if you're managing your travel yourself, and like if you have the ability to choose when you get in, I usually like to choose, if it's a long trip, to get in more on the late side, so that all I have to do is go to bed, because I find that a whole day of travel just exhausts me anyway. So I'm ready to like I'm normally ready to go to bed at that time. I would say, for, especially if you're traveling with like a bike and all your triathlon things, less tends to be more. Like you don't really need more. No matter how long you're there, you don't really need more than like three kits of like three bike kits, three run kits. I also find that, well, I'm probably like more to the extreme on this, but like I'll take normal clothes and never wear them, so I feel like you don't really need that many normal clothes if you're going on a now. Maybe if you're doing your holiday combined with your race, you might want some nicer objects, but I find that most of my training clothes can be normal clothes for me.
Speaker 3:I think you can do so much now on Google and like looking into the places you go before you get there, whether that's finding restaurants or grocery stores that are nearby. Knowing I just get confidence in preparation. So like knowing what way of transportation is going to be the best, whether it's Uber or a cab or train or whatnot and also like we do a lot of food delivery, so which food delivery app is available where you're going so that you can get, like the food that you specifically want. And all that stuff is getting so crazy that like now where you can do like your grocery shopping through the apps and never have to leave the hotel. I think it's important to experience the places you are for the race and like whether it's by swimming, biking and running or like going out to see something particular.
Speaker 3:I think it's really cool that we get to go some neat places so outside of the race, kind of use your training to look around at your new atmosphere. And this like you can also check out the race course on Google Maps by like putting the little person down, if that, if you're like nervous about not being somewhere before, like I'll go, I'll take the course maps and then I'll have it so I can see the course map and see like the Google map person and I'll put the blue line down and just kind of go through. So if you haven't done a race before, it can give you some insight. And if there's things that you like need, pat them with you.
Speaker 2:Some great ideas, some great exactly.
Speaker 1:I'm just so I've got more, sorry, go on one more please.
Speaker 3:Bring all your race stuff, like your helmet, your race suit, like the things you wouldn't be able to find in wherever you're going very easily, like your pedals and your like bike shoes and stuff. Bring them on, your carry on so, in case your luggage gets lost, you have like your pedals to put onto a new bike with your bike shoes, and that will make it a lot less stressful. And a lot of people have been putting the like air air tax in their bag, in their bike bags, because there's a lot of luggage getting lost. So if the airline says we don't know where your bike is, you can say but I do.
Speaker 1:Well, I have some experience of that. My bike just my bike just started staying Kona for a whole week, longer than I was, but the airline kept saying well, we don't know where your bike is yet. I'm like, well, I can tell you exactly where it is. I know it's still sat on the runway at Kona.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's crazy. It's like there was like I guess it was last year or something when we I wasn't racing at the time but I felt like most of the posts I was seeing from athletes were all like tracking their luggage and like showing where their luggage is, which wasn't with them. I think it was just a bad time for travel for a little bit.
Speaker 1:It was brilliant. There's some really good advice there. I particularly like the idea of booking, kind of assessing the food delivery apps and the restaurants and all that sort of stuff beforehand, and the Google map mapping the route. I never thought of that. So I've got Ironman Spain coming up shortly, so I will be doing that, maybe even this evening Brilliant. Thank you very much, katie. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. I hope you have an amazing season and I hope you do make Paris. I hope you complete the hat trick there and I'm sure it'll be a very different experience to Tokyo as well. So it'd be amazing to see you do do special things in Paris. And but yeah, thank you so much. There's been some brilliant advice there.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me. It was a pleasure.
Speaker 1:The best place to find Katie is on Instagram, where she is KZaphires6. So that's spelled Z-A-F-E-R-E-S and then the number six, kzaphires6. If you know what we do at the Tribe Atalon podcast, you've got to register for Tribe Talk. It's an email that comes out every two weeks packed full of everything to do with swim, bike and run, but also nutritional help, business coaching and a whole lot more, whether that's books, videos, ted Talks, apps or technologies. It's packed full of ideas that can help improve your sport, your life and your business. So register for it at tribeathaloncom and you'll be sure that every two weeks, your inbox is full of some amazing ideas and resources to improve your life.
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