Business of Endurance

From Unknown to World Champion: The Rise of Rico Bogen

• Charlie Reading • Season 7 • Episode 7

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Welcome to another exciting episode of the Business of Endurance Podcast, where we delve into the stories, insights, and advice of the world's top endurance athletes. Today, we have a truly inspiring guest, someone who has taken the triathlon world by storm with his remarkable achievements at such a young age. Rico Bogen, the youngest Ironman 70.3 World Champion, joins us to share his journey to the top, his training secrets, and his approach to balancing life, fitness, and the business aspects of being a professional athlete. At just 22 years old, Rico has already made history and is poised for even greater success. We'll discuss his partnership with Ku bikes, explore his strategies for maintaining peak health and nutrition, and learn how he handles the pressures that come with being a world champion. We'll also dive into his thoughts on the strength of German triathletes, his race selection process, and his long-term goals in the sport. This episode promises to be packed with valuable insights and actionable advice, whether you're an aspiring triathlete, a seasoned pro, or someone looking to improve your overall fitness and performance. Stay tuned as we uncover the story behind Rico Bogen's incredible success and what drives him to push the limits of human endurance. So, without further ado, let's welcome Rico Bogen to the Business of Endurance Podcast!

Highlights:

  • Rico's journey to becoming the youngest ever 70.3 World Champion.
  • The challenges of training at altitude and how he overcame them before the big race.
  • How his preparation and strategy for 70.3 races differ from shorter distances.
  • The importance of nutrition in middle-distance triathlons and how he manages it.
  • The impact of sponsorships and how his approach to them has changed post-World Championship win.
  • Balancing training, social media, sponsorship obligations, and maintaining a social life.
  • The importance of recovery strategies, including physiotherapy and nutrition.


Links:
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Connect with Rico Bogen on Instagram & YouTube

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Speaker 1:

I'm Charlie Redding and I'm Claire Fudge. Welcome to the business of endurance.

Speaker 3:

I think we have many good runners, and so it never gets easier, but I want to be there in good shape. But I want to be there in good shape.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to another exciting episode of the Business of Endurance podcast, where we delve into the stories, insights and advice of the world's top endurance athletes. Today, we have a truly inspiring guest, someone who has taken the triathlon world by storm with his remarkable achievements at such a young age. Rico Bogan, the youngest Ironman, 70.3 world champion, joins us to share his journey to the top, his training secrets and his approach to balancing life, fitness and the business aspects of being a professional athlete At just 22 years old. Aspects of being a professional athlete. At just 22 years old, rico has already made history and is poised for even greater success. We'll discuss his partnership with Hugh Cycles. We'll explore his strategies for maintaining peak health and nutrition, and we'll learn how he handles the pressure that comes with being a world champion. We'll also dive into his thoughts on the strength of German triathletes, his race selection process and his long-term goals in the sport. This episode promises to be packed with valuable insights and actionable advice. Whether you're an aspiring triathlete, a seasoned pro or someone looking to improve your overall fitness and performance, stay tuned as we uncover the story behind Rico Bogan's incredible success and what drives him to push the limits of human endurance. So, without further ado, let's welcome Rico Bogan to the Business of Endurance podcast.

Speaker 1:

So, rico, welcome to the business of endurance podcast, really looking forward to chatting to you. Wow, you have crashed into the world of triathlon quickly, and that's where I really want to start. I have to be honest a year ago I hadn't heard of Rico Bogan. So you then become the world champion the youngest ever world champion, 70.3. And what an incredible day that must have been. So I'd love to start with that story. What was it like in the buildup to you know? Where have you come from? How did you build up to that race? Tell us the story of that race.

Speaker 3:

Hi together. I'm really happy to be here in the podcast. The world champion was 22 years, so yeah, I'm the youngest, 70.3. I'm really happy to be here in the podcast. The World Champion was 22 years. So yeah, I'm the youngest, 70.3. I am a World Champion so I started as a young kid in a sports family. So my parents are working, but they didn't do sport as a hobby and so they. They took us on every running competition or triathlon competitions in the area around Leipzig. It's great because as a child you have these competitions and can focus on this competition, and that's not so easy to do in other competitions. That's very great To get points for the Olympic ranking. We took the decision to go more in the middle stance and winning the world champions title thing. Nobody expected it for me.

Speaker 1:

I didn't expect it too, and it was a really stacked field as well. There was a, really it was. It was a. You beat a lot of the, the very top names. Tell us a bit more about that win. Tell us what happened. How did you feel before the race? How did you feel during the race? How did you feel during the race? And at what point did you think I've got this in the bag. How did that feel?

Speaker 3:

It was a little bit, yeah, 50-50 chance if I'm responding good on the altitude or not, because it was the first time. But yeah, and also in the altitude camp I didn't feel that good at the end Last week, although I were there for three weeks and the last week I was really tired and thought, oh, that's not good, I'm not at my highest level. I came down 11 days before the race and it got better day by day and, yeah, then I was there. I think on Wednesday I was in Finland and that last brick session before the race I felt very good. So there I felt, oh, I was really excited before the race and then I was out of the water in third or fourth place, but on the bike I was all time with the front.

Speaker 3:

We had at the beginning a gap with just three men Jusos Nieschlag and Mathis Magier and I was there and we had a gap already and I thought, yeah, here's where I want to be, I want to be at the front.

Speaker 3:

And after 50 or 60 kilometers I thought, yeah, my legs are not that fresh anymore and a little bit tired, but at the end it was a little bit easier and so I got from the bike and third position and then, yeah, my legs were new again. I started to run and it said I had good cadence and written, and there was already my parents was there, the sidelines, the cheer, yeah, it looks so good and and yeah, after three kilometer I could close the 30 seconds gap and I I went in the in front of the race and now in first place and, yeah, this was really amazing and and yeah, the finish line it's just goosebumps and, yeah, tears of joy and and yeah, and this was amazing because, yeah, it was a long way, my board career started very early and yeah, everything came down there and yeah, it was unbelievable.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it was absolutely fantastic. I followed you under two cycles, actually all day. Yeah, it was fantastic to see you finishing and hear the excitement. So yeah, so absolutely fantastic win. You've got this background coming from swimming at a young age and then into 70.3 distance. Is there anything in particular that you've changed strategy-wise in 70.3 racing that you feel is monumental or really made a difference?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, preparation for 70.3 is different to shorter descents. You have to carbo-oload more. I would say this was something different. And also, the nutrition is much more important than the middle stance, sprinter stance, because there's just one hour and you have a bottle on the bike and yeah, there you have maybe 30 grams of carbs in the bottle. But if you don't get it in, then it's also not so important. But yeah, for middle stance, yeah, you have to train the nutrition. Then with the stomach, nothing gets out again and so, yeah, this was something new and with my coach, we tried to talk about this and trying to train this and training. So I think that's the most different to the short distance and yeah, so I got it very fast with the nutrition, though already in the first race it was okay. And yeah, on the running I have sometimes problems to get carbs in me and my coach doing the speed stuff and all the longer stuff, so we mix it very good.

Speaker 1:

You've mentioned your coach a couple of times already and I think actually you share your coach with claire and claire also coached by joe. Given that you're very early in your career, how did you go about picking your coach? What did you look for in a coach? What was it about joe that you felt was a good fit?

Speaker 3:

yeah, for me it's important to have a good relationship to the coach and it was not just what is on the training plan, so I'm asking very many questions, or I I want to know why we are doing this. So this is very important for me that I can give my feedback and that I can ask something. I got a contact to him and I asked him yeah, is it okay if I ask questions? And so that's what I think is very important in our relationship that he is adjustable.

Speaker 2:

You know you mentioned about a partnership with a coach is really important to help support you with that success and, I guess, trust as well. You mentioned partnerships In the world of triathlon. It's becoming more and more difficult to be able to gain partnerships and sponsorships for athletes and we've certainly seen that sort of past. Covid, obviously you've been working alongside Coup Cycles. What made you choose a Ku bike or work with Ku Cycles, and how do you find that bike and that design?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it looks a little bit different from the other bike brands. Yeah, I want to work with them because it looks different and the philosophy behind this is different. As you have, the hire, a frame or a fork is wider and higher so that the airstream could go through the frame and through the legs so that it's not broken. At the beginning it makes sense. And the context is also about with Joe, and his girlfriend is a friend of my mom. There's a program, if I want to join, you got measured your body and then the frame is built to your body in a bigger bike company. I would just be one of many at least, and there in this company I'm maybe I'm dead a world model, but I can talk to the ceo, I can talk to everybody and I can make also a difference and it's definitely a bike that splits opinion, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

But ultimately it's giving you the results that you want. What amazing advocate you must be for them. They must be delighted with their next generation program. I'm really intrigued about this whole sponsorship thing. When you won the World Championship, did you suddenly have this flood of new sponsors trying to throw product and money at you? I'm very conscious that nowadays it seems to be almost more about the followers than it is the results that you get as an athlete. So how has the sponsorship dynamic changed? How was it before you won the World Championship and how has it evolved since, Before the World Championship there were not too many sponsors because they believed since the beginning in me.

Speaker 3:

On the first day they said, yeah, he's a really good guy, he will become a world champion. So they believed from day one. But otherwise there was a sponsor here in Leipzig, my hometown. So it was more like a friend who wants to give me some money and, yeah, that I can do the sport and my parents paid the most of travels and so it was very important that I have the parents behind me. Yeah, after the World Champs it got, for sure, easier and with the world title you feel that social media it's getting more important, that you have to present them on social media. I have both and the followers and the performance. Nutrition is also so important in the middle sense and there are so many brands, so, yeah, it took quite a long time to find the right partner there it sounds like a full-time job on top of a full-time job being an athlete, managing sponsorship and social media.

Speaker 2:

as somebody who's still young, how do you manage training full-time as a professional athlete and having to manage all the social media side of things and sponsorship side of things? What do you do in terms of helping yourself recover properly and potentially have some social part to your life as well?

Speaker 3:

I have a good team around me. So as a manager I have Alex Bruck, so he's also the CEO of Blue Cycle, but he managed the team BVT for many years, so he knows how to manage a team or how to manage an athlete. And, social media-wise, I have a videographer with me and a photographer, so Rico Hoffmann. It's a friend, or at the beginning it was a friend. He's still a friend, but now he's doing more the YouTube channel. He's cutting the videos. I really try to balance the social life and the training life, that I'm not just focused all the time on training and so that I have the social life.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Obviously, staying healthy and injury freefree is really important. Have you got any strategies or key things that you do that help you stay healthy or help you avoid injury?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, with injury, I have also in Leipzig here a partner in physiotherapy. There I could go two times a week to physiotherapy. So really cool that also in Leipzig it's possible here. And then, yeah, I prefer for recovery sauna.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, then you relax your muscles and eating is very important you mentioned the good eating there at the end and I was going to come on to some of your other recovery strategies and actually, when you were talking about racing, moving from shorter distance into 70.3 and how nutrition is really, really important part of that race day, is there anything specifically that you do from a nutrition perspective to help with either day-to-day fueling or perhaps your recovery?

Speaker 3:

I have not a diet or a drill. I'm omnivore. I'm eating everything For me. I'm not eating that much meat. So in normal life or normal training week I don't need the meat, not that heavy stuff, especially for running. It's more, yeah, bread or oats. Immediately after the session I recover shake, so that's working very good.

Speaker 1:

I agree, and I think it's not just about getting back and eating whatever's wrong. I tend to rip people's heads off. I get really hungry if I don't have, so that recovery shake saves me, but it's very good.

Speaker 3:

The recovery shake and in my younger ages I didn't do that and and then I came home very hungry and, yeah, sometimes cry to my parents why there's nothing to eat.

Speaker 1:

Why is dinner not ready? That kind of makes me think. Are there any mistakes that you see young triathletes making that you've learned now? Or having a recovery shake straight after sounds like a good piece of advice. Are there any mistakes people making with regards to nutrition?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think the old school was that you don't have carbs in the training sessions, that you just have water or sometimes no water.

Speaker 2:

So also in swimming, some at least has no water bottle or something to drink on the side of the pool sound like you got some very good strategies there in terms of recovery and being really sensible around, listening to your body as well. Going back to you know this amazing place that you're in being the youngest ever 70.3 world champion. That's obviously brought you amazing success, but has that, to a certain degree, put a pressure on you now to perform? What does that feel like to be in in this situation right now?

Speaker 3:

yeah, for sure, a little bit more pressure than before, but because now I'm not the underdog anymore so everybody knows my name, or I don't want to put too much pressure on me because tried on so many good athletes there, we could see all the last years that nobody could win every race. So we have so many different winners. And also in the team 100 series, no, nobody won twice.

Speaker 1:

I think that's why it's not boring and it's a really good, cool sport I think maybe there's an underlying added pressure because germany have got such a great history you mentioned it already yourself it's got this history of producing exceptional triathletes, and we were talking before the podcast. I've just come back from Germany and I was going out and doing sort of 70, 80 mile rides and 75% of the ride was on tarmac but purpose-built bike trails and I was like this is incredible, I mean, and I couldn't help but think I wonder if this kind of infrastructure helps breed people into cycling and running. So why is it that you say, why do you think that germany produces such strong triathletes? And I know when I race I'm always up against some strong german athletes, so why is that?

Speaker 3:

I would say it's we have a good structure, we have the many swimming pools, and that's one opportunity and if you love the sport or if you love the training, and then it's just a matter of time that you get to the top and we have a good infrastructure. And then the competitions, and then we had good role models to focus on them.

Speaker 1:

I think the swimming pool is a really interesting point, actually, because in the uk we've got something like 300 swimming pools closed in the last four years and we have a real struggle to find good swimming pools. And yet it strikes me that so many times we speak to triathletes professional triathletes that come from a swimming background, and I think you're right, it's important that we learn to swim at a young age. But I think the discipline of training that swimming embeds in you then add also the building of the engine also seems to just strikes me as the UK is missing out horribly by closing swimming pools, when Germany is clearly proving the opposite seems to be the case. Who was your role model when you were younger in the sport?

Speaker 3:

For me it was mostly Jan Frodeno, because he's so tall than me. He was a world model that is possible with a very tall athlete. He won the Olympics. He won 17.3 and he won the long distance world championships. He won everything. He was a world model for me. He did also very good business besides the sport. He built his own brand. He was quite untouchable and a world model for me and he did all the very good business besides the sport. So he built his own brand.

Speaker 2:

He was quite untouchable and a role model for me it's interesting to hear you talk about building your brand as an athlete as well. I think that's really interesting. You touched on there about, in germany, racing from a really early age and you mentioned it a couple of times now in the world of professional triathlon, like, how do you go about choosing races, like strategically racing? When do you choose, like t100 over the ironman series as an example? So, yeah, how do you start to even choose which races you're going to participate in?

Speaker 3:

I'm one of 20 athletes who has a contract with t100, so so I have to race six races in the series. So these six races are yeah, that's in my competition plans. There are eight races I missed in Singapore, so maybe I do all of them or maybe I will miss another one, but for this one it's clear I have to do this. But it's also great to be there because you're always racing against the best triathletes in the world, so I'm really appreciating that I'm there and always looking forward to race there. The running competitions if it's here in Leipzig or around Leipzig, I'm doing the running competitions as a training race, and there I'm talking with Joe the coach, what we implemented in the training plan and then his structures around it. Yeah, if he has a running competition or a triathlon, then I'm doing this just as a training or a good, faster training.

Speaker 1:

You mentioned that the T100 series and that finish at the Escape from Alcatraz in San Francisco was just incredible, wasn't it? And obviously it was a three-way mad dash for the line. Obviously, he finished really strong that time, but it wasn't quite enough. What lessons did you learn from that race?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, for me it was a great result. I went to the third place. I was really happy with it. Yeah, to have won for such a long time With the lead and with Martin van Riel who was before the race. Everybody said, yeah, it's an easy win for him because he won every race or every middle distance race he ever did. I was quite happy to battle with him and could stay with him for such a long time. And, yeah, for this race I would have to train the sprint, because if I would have a better sprint then and I could win it, yeah, we trained a little bit more on the sprint that leads me on to what is next for you.

Speaker 2:

You know you've achieved some amazing success already and, being at such a young age, you mentioned London T100 up. Charlie's a big goal setter here, so he will be very keen to know what are your short-term goals right now and what are your long-term goals. Would you think about transitioning to longer distance, like Ironman distance, at some point in the future? Is that on the cards?

Speaker 3:

For this year, the goal is, with the T100 series. The next race is in Londonondon, so at the end of this week, on sunday, that's the race, and my goal is always to be at least in top five and, and, yeah, to be in on the podium. It's, yeah, it's. This is something I can't say before, because, yeah, it's important how you feel on this day and so many circumstances, but I'll be there in the top five and also in the overall ranking, because you get points for every race and then there's overall ranking. I'll be there in the end of the year in the top five. That's the goal for this year.

Speaker 3:

And then in December there's still the 70.3 World Champs in Taupo in New Zealand. I hope that I can perform there, but it's not easy there because many short distance guys come after to the middle stance. So I think there we have many good runners and it will never get easier, but I want to be there in good shape. I can be in the T100 series next year too, so that I'm one of the T100 series next year too, so I'm one of the athletes. So I would love to race there next year and, yeah, with long distance. I know that I will do it someday, but I don't want to say If you could just pick one long-term goal.

Speaker 1:

So whether it's a win in particular, whether it's a win in Kona, so whether it's a win in particular, whether it's a win in kona, whether it's a win in roth, whether it's a win of the t100 series, if you could pick one more career win, what would that long-term goal be?

Speaker 3:

difficult question. I don't think I would pick the long distance world champion, so I don't know if it's on Kona or if it's somewhere else.

Speaker 1:

Rico's just been talking about his short-term and long-term goals, and goal setting is incredibly important. You know, the top 1% of achievers the world over, whether it's sport or business, write goals. If you want to be in the 1%, you have to write goals but also have a or business write goals. So if you want to be in the 1%, you have to write goals but also have a system to achieve those goals. I have a workshop called the Limitless Life Workshop where I'll show you how to create amazing goals and how to create a system to achieve those goals. So if you go to wwwthetrustedteam, you can register for one of our events called the Limitless Life Workshop. I will show you how to set goals and how to achieve them. We always ask the previous guest of the podcast to ask the next guest a question, without knowing who that is, and the previous guest was a former professional rugby player turned ultra runner called Lewis Roebling.

Speaker 2:

I think Claire has got his question lewis asks do you have any mantras and what do they mean to you? So there's any mantras that you say to yourself by running.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so running. I say sometimes, keep to the cadence. Or it's also a german. I say, and as a locker on life here, get the size. So let's keep easy and stay easy. Yes, it's just flat. So I'm always saying this is going uphill and then I'm saying, yeah, keep easy, it's just flat.

Speaker 1:

Excellent, I like that. I like that. That's brilliant, rico. It's been absolutely brilliant chatting to you. What an incredible start to your career.

Speaker 1:

But equally, what I love about chatting to you is and where we started this conversation was that when somebody bursts onto the scene and having great success, like you did, it's very easy to think, oh, they've just suddenly, they're a natural. And yet what was brilliant about hearing your story was the fact that you have transitioned from so much from a youngster and, of course, we only see the peak of the mountain, don't we? But all of that work below has clearly taken a huge amount of effort and it's massively paid off. So huge congratulations so far. I'm sure in years to come we'll be getting you back on the podcast, having won all of those different things that we talked about and as we got the rising star of the world of triathlon here. But huge congratulations, and we'll be watching with eager eyes cheering you on in london and in new zealand obviously not in person, but yeah, no, I hope you have an amazing year and many years to come.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, thank you. Thank you for the invitation to being part of the podcast. Yeah, he loved it.

Speaker 1:

He laughed at it so what did you make of that interview with Rico?

Speaker 2:

it was fantastic to speak to like the youngest ever 70.3 world champion that was. That was amazing and what an amazingly sensible head on a 23 year old male what he was coming out why did you have to have male there?

Speaker 1:

well, all female, I don't know.

Speaker 2:

I know exactly why you had to have male there, but just you know, some of the wisdom that he was coming out with is, you know, you kind of learn by mistake, but it's almost like he's already ahead in terms of his thinking he is definitely wise beyond his years.

Speaker 1:

I thought he was very grounded and I thought, you know, just like referencing or you know, when it's when it's all becoming a bit too much, a bit of time hanging out with my friends, my school friends or my grandparents uh, it's just, you know, really, really sensible stuff. What I liked was when we talked about being coached by Joe, his, his confidence to be able to say, well, I want to do this. Therefore, can we make that work? And knowing that he needed to sort of kind of stand up for what he believed in and what he wanted to do, I thought was really interesting. What else did you take from that interview?

Speaker 2:

We touched on it quite a bit throughout In Germany. It seems that they, as we do with a lot of people we interview they quite young, but that you know racing really young seems to be potentially, you know, a key to him being able to also thrive in this. You know professional competitive environment as well.

Speaker 1:

You know if you've been racing since you're really, really young and it's very easy to sort of because he sort of skirted over it, but the fact that he started his career as a short, short course athlete and realized that he wasn't winning anything, so he, very young, you know, like you said, you know a lot of the people that will come out of the Olympics will will be the athletes that kind of get to the end of their short course career and then essentially retire from that and move to middle course, whereas he has gone and done that at a very young age, which I think is fascinating because you know he, he could see that that was his strength and he, he had the courage to switch, much younger than most, due to middle, middle distance and and you can see him therefore migrating to long course quicker than perhaps he alluded to I think actually and and you know I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this but just thinking about it, you know the way that he's building his professional career he was talking about.

Speaker 2:

You know you've got this kind of background of him coming from this young age in in you know sport and competing, and then he's really it's almost like he's building a business. You know he's taking all this advice from people who have made it. So his coach that's this, you know has been a professional athlete and now he's coaching at this level. He's got Alex Spock from Coup Cycle that is helping to manage him and having all these people that are supporting around him and taking all of that advice. You know he's really building very good foundations. You know he was talking about partnerships. You know, at the age of 23, being able to negotiate really good partnerships and not just saying yes to everything that was probably, you know, thrown at him after, you know, winning that title and actually saying actually does it work for me? Let me try it out, do I need it and actually do I benefit from it?

Speaker 1:

and I just there's something that kind of comes to me in terms of it's like building a really good, you know business and you'll be definitely the businessman to talk about that well, I just think that, you know, jan Frodeno was an inspiration, not just from a from an athlete point of view, but also from a kind of building a business brand point of view, and you could see that he's learning lessons from Jan and he's kind of, yeah, he's, he's building some building force to be reckoned with. I think he's, uh, he's definitely one of those athletes to just keep an eye on. He's going to go significant places and and obviously has already but continue to see amazing things from him. And, um, obviously, by the time that this episode goes live, we'll know how he got on in the T100 in London. Well, another brilliant episode of the Business of Endurance. Just yeah, so much wisdom in there in many young years. So, yeah, for all the listeners out there, keep on training.

Speaker 2:

So, as promised, Rico talked about his very sensible nutrition strategy, particularly around his recovery, but also his needs for training, and if you would like to also have some insight into protein for recovery, then if you click the link in the show notes below, we'll send you a protein download, so giving you picture ideas, and newly updated picture ideas of both plant-based proteins and also animal-based proteins, so you can make sure that you know how much you need before and after training. So click the link below and you can download those copies for yourself.

Speaker 1:

If you want us to keep getting amazing guests onto the Business of Endurance podcast. We don't ask for you to pay for us. We don't ask for patronage. All we ask for is that you subscribe to the podcast, ideally on Apple. Give us a five-star rating because it shows us you care and, if you've got time, leave us a comment. One word is fine, something like inspiring or amazing or something like that, but we really do appreciate it and it will help us to continue to deliver amazing guests on what we hope you find to be an amazing podcast. Thanks very much. Jeff and chloe from big moose charity, we featured in episode one of season seven, made such a great impact on the both of us, we decided to make them our charity sponsor for Season 7. You know, they really touched me in the sense that I lost my brother-in-law to suicide in Wales and these guys are working their socks off to help prevent situations like that. Claire, why did Geoff and Chloe really make an impact on you?

Speaker 2:

Coming from a background in clinical nutrition and working in mental health, to me also it hit a spot in terms of the charity and how they are building therapy to help support people with mental health difficulties, and they've saved over 50 lives now and already met their first target of a million and their new target, 15 million, that they're trying to get to.

Speaker 1:

It's absolutely incredible and 15 million is that they're trying to get to. It's absolutely incredible and 15 million is a huge target they've set themselves, but they're speeding up help that people in desperately in need get, and this help is needed more than ever. I know how problematic mental health issues are in today's world. So if you think you can help Big Moose Charity and they're particularly looking for corporate partners to help them raise that 15 million, if you think you can help them or link them into a company that can help them, the best place to go to is bigmoosecharityco, or you can find them on instagram as bigmoosecharity, or you can even email jeff at jeff at bigmooseco.