Business of Endurance

Jo's Journey: From Farm to Professional Triathlete and Coach

• Charlie Reading • Season 8 • Episode 6

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Welcome to The Business of Endurance, where we explore the mindset, strategies, and stories of the world’s most extraordinary athletes and coaches. Today, we have a truly remarkable guest: Jo Spindler, one of the most respected figures in triathlon, both as a former professional athlete and now as a world-class coach. Jo's journey is filled with lessons that will inspire and equip you, whether you're an athlete pushing your physical limits or a professional seeking endurance in your personal and business life. In this episode, Jo opens up about the pivotal moments that shaped his career, the highs and lows of turning pro, and the priceless lessons learned from his time under legendary coach Brett Sutton. We dive deep into his unique coaching philosophy, the secrets behind guiding athletes like Rico Bogen to world championship & T100 victories, and game-changing innovations in the world of sport and coaching. There really are some phenomenal insights within this conversation with, Jo Spindler.

Highlights:
 - Transition to Triathlon
 - Diverse Athletic Background
 - Professional Highlights and Challenges
 - Coaching Philosophy and Experience
 - Insights on AI and Technology in Sports
 - Success with Athlete Rico
 - Impact of T100 on Triathlon
 - Professionalism and Broadcast Quality
 - Future of Triathlon
 - Off-Season Strategies for Athletes
 - Innovations in Cycling Biomechanics
 - Philosophical Influences on Coaching
 - Dealing with Fear of Failure

Links:
Connect with Jo Spindler on Instagram & Web.

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Jo Spindler:

That was a very big lesson to respect your body and do smart decisions when you prepare for a race.

Charlie Reading:

Welcome back to the Business of Endurance podcast, where we explore the mindset, strategies and stories of the world's most extraordinary athletes and coaches.

Charlie Reading:

Today, we have a real treat for you. We have a truly remarkable guest, joseph Spindler, one of the most respected figures in the world of triathlon, both as a former professional athlete and now as a world-class coach. Joe's journey is filled with lessons that will inspire you and equip you, whether you're an athlete pushing your physical limits or a professional seeking endurance in your personal and business life. In this episode, joe opens up about the pivotal moments that shaped his career, the highs and the lows of being a pro and the priceless lessons learned from his time under legendary coach Brett Sutton. We also dive into his unique coaching philosophy, the secrets behind guiding athletes like Rico Bogan to world championship and T100 victories, and game-changing innovations in the world of sport and coaching. There really are some phenomenal insights within this conversation with Joe Spindler.

Charlie Reading:

Joe, welcome to the Business of Endurance podcast. I know we're going to be gleaning a lot of wisdom from you over the course of this episode, and I know you've had a really exciting 48 hours, so I'm really looking forward to talk about that. But I always like to start these interviews going back to the roots, and because I wasn't able to listen to any other episodes of you doing a podcast in English. I don't know much about your roots, so tell me what your early sporting life was like and where did your sporting career begin.

Jo Spindler:

Yes, thank you for the invitation. Really happy to be on the show. I started especially my triathlon life. I started really late. I think I did my first triathlon with 21 or 22.

Jo Spindler:

And before I grew up on a farm, my parents had a farm. We were six kids I was the oldest one so I was used to just work physically hard on the farm and I really liked that. The harder the better. I really liked that. And then obviously I was into soccer and it was quite good. I could run very fast. So my strategy always was in the soccer to just kick the ball to the front and then run after it and then put it in the goal of the other team. And that worked very well to a certain age because I was such a fast runner, yeah.

Jo Spindler:

And then I did some mountain biking at that time because when I grew older and I was quite injured a lot from the soccer because I was fast and some of the opponents were quite slow and they instead of hitting the ball, they hit my feet and then you have all those injuries and I was really tired at some point of that. And then I found into mountain biking, which if I crashed it was my fault and I did also do well there. I raced Bundesliga a little bit and then turned into the longer distances. At that time marathons in the Alps came up and I liked that. By that time I started in Berlin and I saw the marathon there and I thought this is really great, I want to join there too. And then I did my first marathon.

Jo Spindler:

Obviously, I tried it one year, then obviously got injured because I did too much too early. And then in the second attempt I got not injured and around 250 something. And then I thought, okay, that's great, I like long distances on the bike, I'm obviously good in running, so I need to combine those two and let's find a sport where I can do those two sports. And then, yeah, I thought, okay, triathlon is perfect, I have to learn swimming, because up that point I never swam, I couldn't swim. So then I decided to learn swimming and then, at the age of 22, I did my first triathlon. So I did an Olympic. Then a couple of weeks later I did a half. So that was my way into triathlon. Wow.

Charlie Reading:

There's a lot to explore there, but I suppose the question that immediately comes up and I know we've talked about this with a few other athletes, heather Jackson being one that springs to mind David Epsine has a book called range and he talks about how, instead of niching down too early, the breadth of experience from different things whether that's sport or business or whatever can actually really help create a different type of athlete. Do you think that diversity through football and mountain biking and and marathon running and all of this sort of different stuff helped you when you came to triathlon later on?

Jo Spindler:

To a certain extent, yes. So when I train young athletes kids or young athletes I always tell them to not specialize too much too early. Speaking about that, I really regret or I'm really sorry that I didn't learn, or I didn't have the opportunity to learn, swimming in an earlier age, because this is really a very tough burden to learn swimming late and then want to perform on a really good level in triathlon. So that is something. When I talk to parents or young kids I say please learn to swim, do things which are rhetorically where you really learn something, because it's so much easier to do that in a young age than it is in a late age I think that's, I think that's really good advice, and we hear that actually is the one part of triathlon that, like, like with running, you were doing that from your football and the cycling thing kind of.

Charlie Reading:

Most people can pick that up more easily, but starting with a swimming background gives you a big leg up, doesn't it? I don't know a huge amount about your professional career in triathlon. What was your highlight, what was the pinnacle of your own triathlon career?

Jo Spindler:

I don't know if there was really a very big pinnacle. So I won some long distance races in germany, in cologne, and another was one in the eastern Sea called Ostermann, which I could do in three times. So this were really it was not really big races, it was not Ironman races but winning a race, and it was good competition and some prize money. That was really exciting. And then I also qualified as a pro for Kona and went as a pro to Kona. It was the year when Chris McCormick won and Chrissy Bellington won, so I remember that one. I was really swim challenged so my race was over when I exited the ocean, but it still was a great experience. And then I liked also to travel the world. Later I joined Team TBB as a professional athlete and I think that was really when you asked. When I looked back on the professional career then Team TBB, the whole thing, training with so many good athletes was really the best thing about it.

Claire Fudge:

I think we're going to come on to Team TBB actually in a minute, so I'm excited to hear all about that. So with your racing, often athletes really learn from when things don't go so well and that you don't have so much success. So what was maybe a low point in your racing and what did you really learn from that in terms of when things don't quite go as well?

Jo Spindler:

That's a really interesting question. When I think about it, I really did not have a real low point in racing. I quite performed well with every race. Sometimes you get second, sometimes you win. But the only maybe two things I can think of is that I got sick at some point. So it was like I was running a half marathon and I run a personal best of one, 12 or something and then it was like a preparation race for the challenge I brought, and it was just two or three weeks before. And then after that half marathon I get really sick with an otitis interna and very high fever, couldn't sleep and could not train at all for maybe seven days or so. And then I recovered and I had no fever anymore. And then I recovered and I had no feather anymore and then I thought, okay, fine, let's go back into training. I have two weeks left.

Jo Spindler:

So, from zero, I ramped up my training to 100% back again and then went into tapering phase and then raced a Roth and my body really shut down after one and a half, two hours on the bike and then I was really smashed. I could not recover from that. You're at 100%, you go down to zero percent and then you try, go to back to 100% and then you do a race and then everything goes over and I could not physically work out anymore. So every time after 30 minutes, whatever I did, my my body completely shut down and then I, if I did a bike, it was okay for 30 minutes and then I could not push any power anymore. So I had to go my 120 watts or so because I really could not and I could not find a way to recover.

Jo Spindler:

So I stopped. I had to completely stop for for about half a year and then I thought, okay, my career is over, I can't do the sport anymore. I did many tests and all the hormones were down. So it was really terrible. I had the testosterone status of an 80 years old man and at some point I felt that the energy came back. And then I did a little 20 minutes run and then it started again and I recovered and I felt the energy. So that was a very interesting experience and then, from that point on, I was really thankful that I could do everything again. That was a very big lesson to respect your body and do smart decisions when you prepare for a race.

Claire Fudge:

I think that is such a good kind of thing for every athlete to take on board in terms of respecting your body, and it sounds like you learned the hard way as well. But how did you get through that time? Because it's really difficult for athletes when they do go through a time where they are injured. So how did you get through that period of time where you couldn't race? You thought your professional career may be over at that point. What got you through? Was it your, your?

Jo Spindler:

mindset, was it your kind of sheer determination, like how did you get through that time? Yeah, it was really difficult, because your dreams suddenly are over you. You think, okay, it's not possible. And then you try, of course, you try to find out what's going on with the body, what can you do? Is there a day to recover? But I just could not train anymore. It was not possible. And then I really it was the termination. I thought, okay, that's it, so you have to deal with it, let's get over it. And then I completely stopped and I did other things. I focused on my studies, I focused on my books, yeah, but I did not sport related stuff, because I really thought, okay, it's not possible anymore. And, yeah, I read a lot and focused on my studies. So I thought I that it was a termination and, based on that, what?

Charlie Reading:

so we're going to come on to your coaching in a minute, but what do you do for your athletes now to help them avoid going down that same path?

Jo Spindler:

I try to avoid stupid decisions like I did past. Then you get over the years in their own careers, but even more working with so many different athletes and also working together with other coaches and observing them and to see in what kind of injuries or problems athletes run into. You have a lot of experience to save athletes from just stupid decisions and wrong ways and then you can save them their health and you can save them a lot of time not getting injured or not going down a wrong path. And that is really what is super important in coaching and no program you can read in a book or find in the internet give you that experience. Training schedule is fine when everything is going to plan, but the coach has to step in when something is not going to play and then you need to know what to do and you can't read that really in the books. It's a lot of experience because some injuries you can keep to train on or you have to even keep to train on, and some you have to stop immediately.

Charlie Reading:

So that's a nice segue onto Team TBB. And so you're working with the legendary Brett Sutton, who is renowned for an amazing figure in the world of triathlon, but also some unconventional methods. What did you learn from being coached by and working with Brett Sutton, and what lessons have you taken from that and applied that to your coaching business now?

Jo Spindler:

Yeah. So when I think back, the driver in my even my own professional career as an athlete was always the interest in training. I wanted to know what it is and what it feels like to train at the very top level in triathlon. This is what I wanted to find out. I did not want to just know it, I also wanted to experience it. And then it was for me very great to have that offer to join Team TBB, because then I was training with Olympic champions and Ironman champions and world and European champions on a daily basis and it was just a great environment and so many things to observe and learn and absorb.

Jo Spindler:

Speaking about Brett, he had a very big impact on how I coach and also how I interact with leads. I was basically self-coached but came from a both scientific background is not correct because I did not study sports but I was self-coached and self-studied basically. But I had a quite scientific understanding of the physiology and what things to address and how to approach that. And then I came to Brett, who had a very hands-on mentality and for me it was fascinating to see that at some point those different directions really matched together. So when I see what Brett did with his athlete on a daily basis. It was exactly what you would do from a scientific perspective and that was just mind-blowing for me that you thought okay, so if you really use the principles, you come to that schedule or setup. And now you have a hands-on coach who has a huge experience of 20 years or even 30 years of coaching and he came to the same training principles but from a completely different direction, and that gave a great confirmation for me that I could understand why he trained athletes in the way he did.

Jo Spindler:

I remember one day where we watched athletes training and he showed me around in the Swiss Alps, in Leather, where we had our summer camp, and he drove me to all those places where we watched athletes training.

Jo Spindler:

And he showed me around in the Swiss Alps, in Lezze, where we had our summer camp, and he drove me to all those places where we did training loops and where we did hill reps and where the swimming pool was. And then we stood on that hill and we looked down in the little valley and he said, okay, down there in the forest we have a 1500 meter loop and we do it hard as a brick session and you have to run it counterclockwise, because then it makes you fast. If you run it clockwise it makes athletes injured and this loop produces world champions. And he said I don't know why, don't ask me, but I know that it is true. And it was true and it was the loop which Nicola Spirit prepared their Olympics and which Chrissie Bellington ran on. And it was just fascinating to see that he did not care about the scientific reason behind why this loop is so good and he just said I know it works. That's all I'm interested in.

Claire Fudge:

It's amazing to hear about some of his techniques as well. With your coaching, how do you think your experience of racing as a professional athlete but also having worked with Brett, how's that really sort of created or shaped your coaching? You know what's shaped your philosophy behind your coaching?

Jo Spindler:

so there is a development in the coaching looking back at first you're really worried about specific sessions, specific intervals, what is the appropriate volume, all that kind of stuff. And then that becomes less of a topic because you understand, okay, this is appropriate, this works. And then it's more about the interaction how Brett or other athletes interact with their athlete when they tell them something or then they decide to not tell them something and what they decide to not tell them. And then I think there's another step where then you are in charge and you take responsibility and you understand and observe the athletes directly and interact with them. And I think only at that stage the real coaching starts.

Jo Spindler:

Before it's just learning, observing, and many coaches never go beyond the first stage, worrying about program, sessions and intervals. The better you get and the better you become as a coach, the less this is an issue. But then the real coaching starts to know what to say to an athlete, to know how to motivate an athlete, to know when to back off and all that stuff. That is the real coaching and you can't learn that in any education course, you can't read that in books. You have to experience it. You have to observe it. Books, you have to experience it, you have to observe it. Being with Brett, coached by Brett, and also observing as a junior coach, on deck with him, observing all this is really what had the biggest impact on me as a coach.

Claire Fudge:

I think what I hear from that is like a very human approach, as in treating athletes like human beings, and that they aren't textbook. They know no matter how much you read or if there's a plan in front of you. Actually you've got to listen to the athlete and help them where they are right now. Which brings me on to the next question. Charlie is a huge fan of anything AI technology. We often have differing thoughts on the use of technology and what you use it for, so what are your thoughts? Just having talked about being quite human, what are your thoughts on AI technology technology in sports? So that can be anything from how we're using AI in coaching programs or platforms through to garments or rings loops. What are your thoughts?

Jo Spindler:

When you have lots of data input from different devices, or even more input from many devices from many different athletes, and then to look for patterns and strategies adaptions and then to look for patterns and strategies adaptions, then it can be very helpful because it can be very time consuming for a coach to do all that on your own. I think maybe also you could even build some generic programs based on that. But I think the real, let's say, art of coaching can't see that being handled by AI. The art of coaching can't see that being handled by AI.

Charlie Reading:

So I think, when the real coaching starts, the human has to take over, to step in. I think this is fascinating because when we first, before we started this interview, claire and I were talking about how she sees you as less worried about the technology, as many coaches are and I think Brett was famous for that as many coaches are, and I think Brett was famous for that but I actually then was listening to you talking about the stages of going, becoming a good coach and thinking this is exactly what technology is there for, isn't it? And actually I completely agree with you AI is better at crunching through all of that data and building a generic training plan and, like you say, actually the generic training plan is less important than people think. The coach's role is then all of that emotional intelligence piece and that empathy stuff and dialing it down when they've had a rough week or they're feeling a bit sick. And actually the coaching bit is the kind of complicated human bit, not the training plan bit, isn't it?

Jo Spindler:

Yeah, that is as you said. That sums it up very well. Yeah, that is as you said. That sums it up very well.

Jo Spindler:

And Brett is that famous and that successful because he has a really unique ability to tune in into an athlete. When he talks to you as an athlete and I heard that from many athletes and he really has a talk with you and he goes into your emotions, desires, while you do something, you feel as if he was reading your mind. He says things which you think, okay, that's deep inside me. Where the hell does he know that? And this is what makes him so unique and he has an intuitive knowledge when to say what and what not to say, and that makes him successful.

Jo Spindler:

It's not the gruel sessions or whatever. This is an image he built by himself to also sort out. If he had that image and an athlete approached him, he knew that athlete really wanted to be coached by him and that athlete really would do whatever he asked for. Because there was this pre-selection there is the gruel coach and the gruel sessions and he throws them against the ball like the eggs and whatever. Who survives then survives. But it was not at all like this. So that was really Brett's psychological intuition or knowledge was really what separated him from any other coach I experienced. So far.

Charlie Reading:

So to go back to your sporting roots and switch to football as a subject. When you dive into why Sir Alex Ferguson was so successful with Manchester United, it always comes down to this it's this individual man management for Beckham. He would be shouting in his face for Gary Neville. He always put his hand on his shoulder and referenced his grandfather because that's what he knew worked for Gary Neville. He always put his hand on his shoulder and referenced his grandfather because that's what he knew worked for Gary Neville. Eric Cantona he couldn't shout in his face because he knew he'd clear off. He was all about calm. That is the coaches that really get the best out of their athletes. It's that understanding the human being, isn't it?

Jo Spindler:

And it was exactly the same. We did that whatever track session almost every two weeks. So that whatever track session almost every two weeks. So we in switzerland in summer camp we rode down the mountain to the track and then we ran 30 times, 800, 200, easy, and then we had a little something to eat and then we had to bike back two hours or something, 1100 height meters back to our village and we had athletes running and doing the sessions and some athletes, especially the male Brett, shouted at them and he really kicked the ass and they really needed it. But if he would have done the same to Nicolas Spirik, for example, or Caroline Steffen, they would have stopped immediately because they thought there's something wrong. It would have been nothing which would have motivated them to push harder in the session. They would just have gone crazy and say, oh, what's wrong? And he knows that exactly what to do at the session during a session and what the athlete was responding then to.

Claire Fudge:

I think that's. It's just a great way in terms of this human approach and the psychology behind it. Moving on to thinking about your coaching as well, You've had some absolutely amazing success this weekend with one of your athletes, rico, who we interviewed a couple of months ago now on this podcast. So tell us a little bit about Rico and, number one, tell us about his successes, not only winning a 70.3 world championship race, but also this weekend.

Jo Spindler:

But what have you really focused on with Rico in terms of his success at such a young age? Yes, thank you, that was a fantastic Sunday I had. Yesterday Rico became second in Dubai. He put on a fantastic show, really good race, and then he also placed third overall in the T100 overall ranking. So that was really a huge achievement and also a big surprise. We actually went into the race to just secure his top 10 spot so that he gets an automatic contract next year. Then the race turned out so well that he was suddenly going for the podium and that was just fantastic to watch With Rico.

Jo Spindler:

I'm working with him now since about two years. He had obviously started swimming early, so he was like in a sports school focusing on swimming. That is a super big advantage for him because Ken comes first out at the front out of the water in the first group and then he has all tactical options how to race the race and that's a huge advantage. He does not have to make up time on the bike. Then he just can decide whatever he wants to attack or just sit in the group, depending on the course and the competition.

Jo Spindler:

In terms of training, we mainly really we did not crazy things. We mainly looked for consistency and keeping him injury-free. Basically, that's it. I did not want him. He's so young, he's 24 years old. Only I do not want to push him and train him into the ground in only two or three years. Chasing titles and records. No, he has a long professional, promising career ahead, records no, he has a long professional, promising career ahead and it just would be stupid to push all the limits right now. So after he won the world title 70.3 last year, we were just basically continuing what we were doing anyway and we had a focus already on making it possible for him to perform well in the heat, to race better in the heat, because we knew already from the races before Lahti that there was an issue there and that he was not good in hot conditions. And yeah, it was just great to see that finally yesterday he could show that he's also able to do well in really hot conditions.

Charlie Reading:

I seize on that. Having just come back from Kona and been smashed by the heat, what did you do for him to give him good heat adaption?

Jo Spindler:

Yeah, we did basically a lot of heat training, very specific heat training. We used the core body sensor to measure body temperature and also skin temperature. In the course of the past 12 months they also updated the app so it has a much better usability now it really works. Before it was not very reliable and they also had to find out what really to measure. Maybe also thanks to the Norwegian guys and their input they really understood better how to use it. So we had heat training blocks where Rico really focused on adapting to the heat and we did maybe three weeks where we had a lot of heat sessions in addition to the other sessions and he sat on the trainer for one and a half hours at very warm room temperature, several layers of clothing on to get the body temperature up and yeah, and then it was just a matter of grinding through that and let the body adapt.

Charlie Reading:

Brilliant. That sounds like something. If I ever go back to Kona, I need to be paying more attention. You definitely have to. Yeah, yeah, I did some, but clearly not enough. But equally, some of the pros were having the same issue. So I take some sort of confidence in that. And, in terms of the T100 has tried to change the sport of triathlon. I've gone through phases over the course of the season thinking, on the one hand, I can't ever see anyone getting a T100 tattoo on their calf, but equally, it's bringing a professionalism to the sport and a different following. So what are your thoughts on what the t100 series has brought to the world of triathlon?

Jo Spindler:

for the professionals. It has really made a really big impact because they brought really money into the sport. So suddenly professionals are able to do financially really well and before that. So when I was racing before the t100 it was really a struggle to just finance your life as a professional athlete. Now you can really make decent money if you do well in in the t100 and that changed the dynamic. I think that also makes everything more professional. You have a series where really the best athletes race so often against each other. That is exciting. You don't have that chance anymore as a professional athlete to avoid the competition like it was before. The big guys they only try to race once or two times a year against each other. They try to qualify for Kona and then they raced Kona and they tried to not race themselves before Kona and now you see them racing every second month or so and it's really high quality racing. That is another level of professional life. It's more like a professional series which we have in tennis or Formula One or cycling as well.

Jo Spindler:

Professionalism in the broadcast. So yesterday the broadcast of dubai was really good. All the important scenes, moments. They brought that back in the broadcast and you could, you had an understanding of what was going on. They had good commentators. It's good quality. The course with the skyline of Dubai was really good and this is a kind of professionalism in the broadcast and in making it a more popular sport attractive for a wider population. That is really another level and a big step ahead.

Charlie Reading:

I'm pleased you mentioned the Formula One and the cycling, because watching Unchained on Netflix has, I think, almost doubled the viewing of Tour de France this year from previous years. Do we know if we've got the T100 equivalent of Unchained coming down the pipeline?

Jo Spindler:

Maybe not yet, but they are definitely going the same path because they do a lot of interviews, social media before the races, with the athletes. So you really get to know the athletes better and you learn to know them as a character. And since all the time the same athletes are racing, or kind of a core, the same athletes are racing you over a course of a year, you really get to know them. And after the race also, there are some really good interviews. I I've never watched interviews of athletes after a race, but I found it really interesting and it is also authentical. You know, if Sam Long breaks down in tears, this is really a great moment in the broadcast because it's so authentic, it's so real, it's so emotional. So I think this is a really good quality and also interesting for normal people who are just not doing triathlon but just want to watch this and understand this better.

Claire Fudge:

I think it's really exciting to see the world of triathlon moving in that direction as well. Where do you think triathlon is going and going to move towards? Because I think we saw over a lot of people moving into different sports, whether it were mountain biking or ultra running. There was a focus change in terms of Ironman racing and world championships, and now we've got the T100. So where do you see triathlon being in five, ten years time?

Jo Spindler:

I think you need to differentiate between pro racing and age group racing.

Jo Spindler:

Triathlon and this is why I'm also very happy to be a coach in triathlon because I think it's really the most healthy sport you can do because it's so balanced, it works the upper body with the swimming, you have some motorical skills you use which you do not do when you only do running or only do cycling.

Jo Spindler:

So you have really everything and plus a technical aspect, it's such a fantastic sports to just stay fit and healthy that I think everybody needs to do triathlon. That's one thing I think I'm happy the athletes, like the t100 age group events, are sold out so quickly because there is a hype, the athletes. It's cheaper than ironman racing, it's very high quality organized events. So there is some competition as well, the and the more athletes race to triathlon, the better it is for the sport and also for the well-being of many people on the other side in professional racing. I think also that brings a lot of competition to the sport Because now you suddenly have 70.3 World Championships, ironman World Championships, then you have T100 World Championships, so there is a competition of the organizers for athletes. That brings more money, that brings more professionalism, that brings more time also for TV, because suddenly it's something big, something very high every time, not just in october or not on hawaii.

Claire Fudge:

so I think that is a very exciting time for the professional athletes and very good development for the sport I think seeing that competition develop I think is going to be a really important part of it in terms of keeping it alive and it and moving in different directions as well. But obviously, at this end of the season for most certainly age group athletes, towards the end of the season and off season, a lot of athletes really struggle with kind of this concept of finishing racing and then having this void like not knowing what they should be doing. What do you see as the biggest kind of mistakes or pitfalls that age group athletes make during this transition phase? I don't know what you call it. Do you call it off-season?

Jo Spindler:

We can call it off-season because it's what everybody understands. I have not. I like individual approach. So I remember when I was my first year in Team TBB and I was after my last race, I came back into camp and I had to do a track session and I thought, okay, I did my last race, so why should I now run whatever 12.1 thousandths in three-minute pace or something? And then after the sessions I asked when do we do the off-season? And then he said, kid, your off-season was yesterday, get back to training. So I had no off-season and I went straight back into training because he thought I did not well enough and that was also a lesson.

Jo Spindler:

But then at the same time we had other athletes on the team who got their off-season, who had to do the off-season, who were not allowed to train. So it was an individual approach, if you do. Rico did a season that lasts from March until December. Of course he will get an off season and we even did a break in between halfway because we understand it's such a long season and he needs to have a time to recharge mentally and also physically. And I do the same for the athletes as well, depending how much they traced, how much they traveled, how much stress they had.

Charlie Reading:

I give them an off-season or not what does an off-season look like, and does it incorporate any of the sort of other stuff that perhaps you would like to do but don't get time to do or you should do, maybe like pilates or yoga? Or what does an off-season look like for you?

Jo Spindler:

that also depends a little bit on the athletes. Some athletes just like to do some outdoor travels and then they I send them hiking or backpacking or whatever. So there is some kind of physical activity involved. Others want to go out celebrate, party, and they allowed that for a week or so. Others want to just step back a little bit because they want to look after their business and spend a little bit more time with the family.

Jo Spindler:

I would always I'm not a friend of doing nothing at all I always would recommend to keep some activities, at least the running, so that it's not that difficult to step back again. I think if you do not train at all, you lose a lot of time. So Brett always said if you rest one week, you lose two weeks, because it's one week for what you could have gained and one week for what you didn't train. So then it takes you a long time to get back again. Yeah, that's the main important. But for other athletes they enjoy their training so much, it gives them so much structure to their daily life that it would be a pain for them to not train at all or to be forced to stop it completely. So we keep the routine but we change the focus, we change the approach. We don't do interval sessions, we focus on other things.

Charlie Reading:

And just specifically on Pilates, because this is something that I think I should do over the course of the season, but I never have time to, so now I get to the end of the season, I think I really should definitely start pilates because I know it would be good for me. Do you use pilates with your athletes at all?

Jo Spindler:

no, please don't do it, because you might get injured and then it's nothing you would have wanted. So actually you have more athletes injured in off-season when I leave them off the lead because they do stupid things. They start pilots or yoga and then they have the stress adductor or whatever. Yeah, and then we have to recover from off-season for two weeks because they come out of the off-season injured. So I can assure you that you miss not out in not doing some of that stuff during your season. What we try to do and this is something what I learned from Brett we try to incorporate the specific strengths work into the sport so that we do not have to do additional sessions because we already do it while swimming, while running, while cycling. That is a phenomenal approach saves you a lot of time, saves you a lot of injuries and you still do a lot of core and strength work that's like music to my ears.

Claire Fudge:

Thank you, I like you immediately does that get you out of doing pilates now?

Claire Fudge:

yes, I'm happy we did the talk so right at the beginning, you were talking about your very science-based approach to your coaching and, being one of your athletes, I know that very well. In terms of you know you often talking about physiology and biomechanics, which is extremely useful when it comes to understanding your coaching approach as well. Over the last couple of years, you've been involved with coup cycles in terms of bike fitting and we interviewed Alex Bock actually recently from coup cycles as well but you've also had other involvement in companies and to do with biomechanics, such as cycling foot plates as well. So tell us a little bit about your interest in other companies and through the sort of looking at the biomechanics of cycling.

Jo Spindler:

As an athlete you are always looking for some little potential improvements you can gain. That be aerodynamics or that be biomechanical stuff. And I ran into that guy. He said he was an ex-professional cyclist and naturopath and just very maybe genius person thinking out of the box. And he said I have something for you which really can improve your cycling. And then he showed me that midfoot thing. He did not show it. He said come to Munich, I have something for you.

Jo Spindler:

So I went to Munich. I met Götz that's his name and he gave me some mountain bike shoe which had the cleat in the middle of the foot, exactly in the middle, and he said mount that to your bike. He gave me some mountain bike pedals for my triathlon bike and then he said now we go riding a little bit. And I drove behind his car time trailing. That was a lot of fun One hour or something. And then he bought the car, he changed my pedals and said go back to your old shoes and he went off.

Jo Spindler:

He went into the house and I stood there and I thought let's go, let's try my old setup. And already after five minutes I turned back and because I thought it's impossible, it felt so inefficient. It's impossible to ride in this setup in this position. Just because it felt like you had such a long, ineffective lever on the foot. And, yeah, I rang him at the door and I said, okay, I'm convinced, please give me the pedals, give me the shoe or whatever you have. And since then I'm actually riding that and there's a lot of discussion. It is better in cycling if you can improve your threshold, yes or not. As a triathlete, I'm not even interested in that, because you effectively save your calves for the run because your calves are not working on the bike and you have fresh calves when you start your run when you come off the bike, and that is an advantage for triathlon.

Claire Fudge:

Do you think this might be one of the kind of next things to come through into triathlon?

Jo Spindler:

It's around there for 30 years already and it got never really popular because one of the problems that you have placing the cleat under the mitt of your foot really, or even further back we also did experiments with that change the whole geometry of your bike and then it's really out of sync. You can't have a very good because the front end is always too high then, unless you are very tall athlete, but normally you would then need different bike geometry for that kind of cleat placement. You have problems with toe overlap, also with sometimes scratching the road because it's too low than the bottom bracket and all that stuff. So this is one of the cause maybe, while it never became really popular, you need to have a really big effort in adjusting the bike so that you have a decent aero position.

Charlie Reading:

I'd never really heard anything about this discussion. This feels like this is the barefoot running revolution happening and talking about barefoot running and books like Born to Run, which inspire that sort of regeneration of interest every once in a while. You mentioned early on that you read a lot and you love getting into the science of the sport. What books have really helped you on your journey and what books do you find yourself recommending to the people you coach?

Jo Spindler:

That's a difficult question, because the books that really influenced me already in a very early age is Schopenhauer, nietzsche and Thomas Mann. I studied philosophy and literature and I started reading Thomas Mann when I was in intense class or so at the age of 14 or 16. And then he talks a lot about Schopenhauer, nietzsche and also Dostoevsky, and then I went into this and that is really had a big influence in my thinking and also how I approach things.

Charlie Reading:

So let's dive deep on this. How have those books shaped you as an athlete and as a coach, and as an individual?

Jo Spindler:

it's a certain approach of questioning things. You never take something for granted unless you understand it very well or you can prove it and you get an understanding for seeing things in different perspectives. And then obviously you have all those how to approach life in general and what is the right thing to do. But ultimately it's really to question things and to think on your own, not belief on whatever is presented to you can you give me an example of how you use that?

Jo Spindler:

if you have it in sport, then you just look at the different concept of anaerobic threshold and then everybody say, okay, it's whatever, ftp or. But then you have to really understand, okay, what is ftp, what is a really valid definition of anaerobic threshold? And then the next question is the method you are using to identify that threshold. Is that really able to do what you think it's able to do? So maybe the setup influences the outcome of the test and this is all like. Then can get quite scientific questions, but it all starts with really questioning the concept or the results.

Charlie Reading:

And based on that principle, if I want to dive deeper on that, is there one specific book from one of those people that you would start with? You go. This is the kind of beginner's guide to this sort of approach to thinking.

Jo Spindler:

You have to read the Budenbrocks from Thomas Mann. It's a novel, it's nothing scientific, but it brings you into Schopenhauer and also Nietzsche and it's just a great book to read. But it's almost 1000 pages and can't tell you if it's good to read it in English, because what all those three thinkers really have is a very good way of writing in German and there are so many subtleties, so many things in between the lines that I'm really not sure how good that transfers to non-native speakers or even into another language. And then you're okay. If you want to really dive deep into the philosophical aspect, then you need to go into Schopenhauer and read the World as Will and Representation.

Jo Spindler:

But that is an even longer book. But it's a run through of also philosophic history book. But it's a run through of also philosophic history, starting with platon and then kant, and then develops our own theory of how everything is working and what's behind things and what is the best way to live a life, and it's fun to read. But that needs definitely more endurance and perseverance than the book in brooks needs excellent.

Charlie Reading:

I can guarantee you're the only person so far we've asked that question of, of over 120 of the world's best athletes, coaches and adventurers. Nobody's given me those before, so they will go on the reading list because I just I love how you talk about that and how that makes you think about everything differently. So it will be going on to my reading list. I'm not quite sure I can see. I'm not sure, claire. Is it going to go onto your reading list?

Claire Fudge:

If it's on Audible. I was very against Audible, but now Charlie's convinced me.

Charlie Reading:

Oh yes, if it's not on Audible, and it's 1,000 pages. That's almost a decade's worth of reading for me.

Jo Spindler:

I think it's not really easy to read. So you make maybe you can read 30 pages per hour, so that is already quite a good pace and you can't scan through the text. You really need to read it sentence by sentence, because it's really so good and it's all about also the language and the characters.

Claire Fudge:

It's fantastic, it's their own world maybe it's one you have to read actually from what you're saying I'm dyslexic, so I'm a horribly slow reader, but I have guzzled through a while.

Charlie Reading:

I was two and four on cone, or I have guzzled through a physical book for the first time in a long time. Maybe I need one more before I take that challenge on. If it's on audible, I'll give it a go there first for sure. And then we always get the previous guest of the podcast to ask the next guest a question without them knowing who that person is going to be, and the previous guest was Joey Evans Now Joey Evans. You probably don't know the name, joey Evans, but Joey Evans was paralyzed in a motorbiking accident and not only did he end up coming back to being able to walk, but he went on to do the Dakar Rally, a whole load of other challenges, and he literally just in the last 24 hours, finished the Baja 1000. So he's incredible guy. But, claire, I think you've got Joey's question yep.

Claire Fudge:

So Joey asks what is your best strategy for dealing with the fear of failure?

Jo Spindler:

I think managing the expectations, that that is probably the biggest aspect. Manage your expectations. I would not say you have to have low expectations, of course not, but you have to have realistic expectations. And if you manage those well, then there is a big chunk of that fear already gone. And the second thing is to just do it, because it's like in racing once the gun goes, everything, all the nervosity, everything is gone. You're just in the moment and with the fear you just need to start doing, just to try to do it, and by that moment that fear is gone. Maybe it comes back, but it's very unlikely it comes back when you're actually trying to do it. You have to be in the moment and once you're focused, once you're in the flow, then there is no fear, it's true it is true, the fear is far greater before something than during it, isn't it?

Charlie Reading:

yes, you just got to get over the start line and then, yeah, it happened. Excellent advice, excellent, joe, it's been absolutely brilliant chatting to you. I've got loads of notes here already, including several books that were never no, I never thought would enter my reading list, so it's really interesting. Huge congratulations with what you've you and Rico have achieved this season. I think that's amazing and it's interesting. Actually, when we interviewed Rico, we asked him that question was winning the 70.3 world championships as early as he did almost like too much success too early? And there's that risk and worry of not going on to to continue to have an amazing career. And obviously he's proved that he's absolutely going to continue to have an amazing career. And obviously he's proved that he's absolutely going to continue to have an amazing career. So huge congratulations there. We're looking forward to watching how both of you get on over the course of the next season. But yeah, thank you for the brilliant advice and enjoy the off-season, if you give yourself an off-season.

Jo Spindler:

Well, brito will race the 70.3 Worlds in Taupo, which is just one week before Christmas. So, yeah, it will be another four busy weeks until that race and then, I think already, the preparation with the other athletes start for next.

Charlie Reading:

Do you get to go to?

Jo Spindler:

Taupo? No, I'm in. Right now I'm moving houses. I have to finish that and therefore I'm not going to Taupo. My job is done when the athlete is joining the start line, so I can't do really a lot being at the race. Often I'm of better use watching everything from the computer and giving my instructions to the people on the course who then shout the instructions to the athlete.

Charlie Reading:

I can tell you, taupo is an interesting place. I've only ever jumped out of a plane over Lake Taupo. I've never done a race there, but it's a great place. But yeah, no, I'm sure he'll have a phenomenal performance there and, yeah, look forward to seeing that. But yeah, thank you for your time and wish you every success in the season ahead.

Jo Spindler:

Thank you. It was really great to be part of the show.

Charlie Reading:

So what did you make of that interview with Joe?

Claire Fudge:

It was great. Obviously I know him pretty well from the world of coaching but it was really actually. It was really good for me to hear some of his earlier experience, how he got into the world of triathlon and also just from his experience of coming from like a farm background and working really hard and I wonder if that's had quite an influence on his mindset behind endurance sport as well, that kind of hard-working side to his sport.

Charlie Reading:

I thought that, because I was listening to it I grew up on a farm as when I was thinking, yes, I'm empathizing with this. And then he said I really liked hard work.

Charlie Reading:

I was like, no, I can't empathize with that when I was a youngster, on the farm, I really didn't want to do any hard work at all, I was as lazy as anyone, uh, but I did want to play football. So, yes, but I thought that was interesting and, yes, the range of different sports and not coming to triathlon till till later on, but also reiterating that advice of the fact that the swimming is the bit that really encourages everyone to try and do now as a youngster, because if you get that, you've got options, haven't you?

Claire Fudge:

I think if we were to look back at all of the different interviews that we've had and the different people that we've had on the guests on the podcast, like it does come back to this not specializing too early as a child in sport and encouraging lots of different sports and, I guess, getting lots of experience in different sports.

Claire Fudge:

But coming back to the swimming aspect in triathlon, that's really interesting, isn't it? Because we've come back to that time and time again in terms of that being the number one area and also, for me, this concept of and again, I guess, from being coached by him I get that experience. But for him to talk about actually where a coach I don't think this was his words but where a coach becomes a real coach is actually when they've got experience and they, yes, you've got the training plan. But the real coaching starts with the psychology behind the athlete and really getting to know an athlete, and I think that's such an important part in terms of you're a business coach, whether it's coaching other business people, whether it's coaching athletes. I think it's so important that you can really get into the psychology behind a person.

Charlie Reading:

I agree I thought that was a really interesting conversation around how the coaching is about the human element and why, for example, brett Sutton and obviously I linked that to Alex Ferguson why the coaching becomes much more about the human but equally partnering with technology, whether that's AI or whatever, so that you can focus more on the bit that the human can add the most value to and get rid of the stuff that the AI and technology is better to do for you. That to me seems like a really great approach and, yes, that's obviously how I run the business coaching practice. That's what I'm coaching the guys who run the other businesses to do, and I actually I thought back to the coaches that I've had previously and this is definitely not the case with Will Usher, my current coach, but certainly I could see for some of those other coaches I could see I'm not sure whether they got to the level two that he said it was very much still level one building the training program, not so much the level two bit.

Claire Fudge:

And I think actually for me as well, it's really interesting from a coaching perspective in terms of the world of nutrition. I always come back to this theory versus practice and actually you've got a human being in front of you and only with my experience and the experience that you get can you truly then put into practice the practical aspect of that theory. And that's not it's not going to be textbook, and I think that's a really important part how people can really get the most out of an athlete, a client is actually really getting to know them, and your experience that comes behind that in terms of how you put that data, that science that you know, into that practical application. So, yeah, I really like that, that human side. And that leads on to you I didn't know the philosophy sides to Joe either. You've got a big book to read now. Oh, my goodness, I'm not sure book to read now.

Charlie Reading:

Oh my goodness, I'm not sure when I say it's on my reading list, I'm not sure it's very high on my reading list. I actually think those sorts of books I think would be absolutely fascinating. But it is the sort of book perhaps doesn't work so well as an audio book and it's the sort of book that you need, like somebody that's a slow reader always needs. I need to put aside a month and just that's a project for a month, because I also think it's the sort of book where I keep hearing from different people that Meditations by Marcus Aurelius is an amazing book for this sort of philosophy, but it does not work as an audio book. I can't make it work as an audio book, so at some point I am going to have to just bite the bullet and read the thing, but it just takes a long time.

Claire Fudge:

And I wonder actually, by immersing yourself in it and reading more slowly, you can probably process things better. You probably think quite a lot. So, talking about meditation, maybe it is a form of meditation to a certain degree. Reading it actually like going through that process, but it is off season so potentially it could help you with your sleep. If you start reading, maybe you're going to fall asleep. At the second page and he talked about the fantastic results that he's had with Rico as well, so that you know it's really exciting to hear about Rico and where the T100 is and where it's going- yeah, I thought the conversation about the T100 was interesting as well, wasn't it?

Charlie Reading:

because I desperately I asked the question in the hope that he knew that something was going to come out like the unchained or the drive to survive equivalent, because it seems like it's teed up for it like that following of the journey of the athletes through that series. I desperately hope they do that, because that, to me, is that has. Clearly the tour de france has been happening for what I don't know about 80 years or something, or maybe even longer, but creating unchained has massively increased the, the viewers, because people understand the journey of the team and the athletes and everything else, and triathlon needs that. It's not like a game of football where it all happens in a 90 minute period, that so much more of it happens before the race, doesn't it? So I think it'd be brilliant for the sport if we could get that.

Charlie Reading:

Still not sure that we'll ever see a t100 tattoo on somebody's calf, but for me there's a certain type of athlete that wants to complete an iron man to say I've done an iron man and obviously they tend to be the ones that have the tattoo. But what was magical about Kona for me was the ability to hang out with bump into speak, to even be served by at a drink station. World champions, current pros, former pros, all of that stuff. You're just immersed in it, and I suppose that is what the t100 is doing well is that you are all part of an experience where you get to see the pros as well as race, and maybe not even on the same day, but I I think that is a quite a special thing within our sport and perhaps T100 will attract the age groupers because of that.

Claire Fudge:

I think it's gonna be. It's gonna be interesting to to see where it goes and actually you know, joe was pretty positive about the world of triathlon still having a great following and people still wanting to to be in that world, and I think T100 certainly is.

Charlie Reading:

I think more age groupers are going to go in that direction, so it would be interesting to see yeah, I was looking at Ironman races for next year and I was shocked at how few there are to pick, like I literally I think in June, july and August there was one in the US across the whole three months. I was like, really, is that I can't be, I can't, I couldn't quite get. There was about four in September but it just didn't make any sense to me. And there's not that many in Europe to pick from either. I think probably the 70.3 is the area of greatest growth, which is fascinating. Yeah, and the other piece I took from Joe's advice was the, the core body temperature sensor. And try, I wish I'd had that advice a few months ago. I could have probably.

Claire Fudge:

Charlie, I could have given you that advice I should have because of the whole, yeah, the whole digital kind of some device or gadget nobody told me there was a gadget I could throw out the problem. I totally forgot to tell you, but I obviously don't have it next time?

Charlie Reading:

no, I can't. I'm not sure that. I don't know whether that'll be next time or not. Next time there's a hot race, doesn't?

Charlie Reading:

have to be toner, but no, really good episode. Great guy, really nice but also really insightful on a few things and I'm sure that schopenhauer and man and nietzsche have helped him become that person. It's fantastic and for everyone at home. Keep on training if you want us to keep getting amazing guests onto the business of endurance podcast. We don't ask you to pay for, we don't ask for patronage. All we ask for is that you subscribe to the podcast, ideally on Apple. Give us a five-star rating because it shows us you care and if you've got time, leave us a comment. One word is fine, something like inspiring or amazing or something like that, but we really do appreciate it and it will help us to continue to deliver amazing guests on what we hope you find to be an amazing podcast. Thanks very much.