On this week’s Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, a conversation with Mohammed Alghurabi, a long-time MDOT senior project manager being honored this week by the Engineering Society of Detroit.
Alghurabi is best known in recent years for his work in southwest Detroit communities to prepare for building the Gordie Howe International Bridge linking Michigan and Canada.
However, he’s also managed other big projects, including the building of the last freeway added to the state trunkline system, M-6 (Paul B. Henry Freeway) in Kent and Ottawa counties.
Now his portfolio includes a project to modernize and improve connectivity on urban corridors in Detroit and Grand Rapids, working closely with officials from both cities:
Alghurabi shares his experience building trust with residents, business owners and others affected by the work on the various projects.
On this week’s Talking Michigan Transportation podcast, a conversation with Mohammed Alghurabi, a long-time MDOT senior project manager being honored this week by the Engineering Society of Detroit.
Alghurabi is best known in recent years for his work in southwest Detroit communities to prepare for building the Gordie Howe International Bridge linking Michigan and Canada.
However, he’s also managed other big projects, including the building of the last freeway added to the state trunkline system, M-6 (Paul B. Henry Freeway) in Kent and Ottawa counties.
Now his portfolio includes a project to modernize and improve connectivity on urban corridors in Detroit and Grand Rapids, working closely with officials from both cities:
Alghurabi shares his experience building trust with residents, business owners and others affected by the work on the various projects.
Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast. I'm Jeff Cranston, Mohamed El-Gharabi. You've heard him before on the podcast. He's a repeat visitor. This week he's being honored by the Engineering Society of Detroit. I thought I would use that as an opportunity to speak with him again about all that he's done for the department as a senior project manager and why he's been so successful with so many, you know, really difficult things Most recently, the Gordie Howe International Bridge come into fruition. But he's actually been involved in a lot more than that and his portfolio now includes a lot more than that. And really what I wanted to talk to him about is how important it is to build relationships and build trust.
Speaker 1:I once created a presentation on public involvement just based on Muhammad and what he does. I called it Trusted Voices and Deploying Muhammad. So I hope you enjoy the conversation. So, Muhammad, welcome back to the podcast. I appreciate you taking time, as always, to talk with us. Thank you, Jeff. It's always a pleasure to be with you. So I mentioned in the intro that one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you this week was because you're being honored by the Engineering Society of Detroit and its board of directors as the 2024 Distinguished Service Award winner. That's awesome, Congratulations. Tell me you know how that came to be.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, jeff. It is definitely an honor. I am very proud of that organization, that society. They do amazing things. They do things that are close to my heart reaching out to the underserved communities, people, folks try to spread the knowledge. They do a lot of classes to prepare folks for their professional engineering license.
Speaker 2:I've known about ESZ from the time I was in school at Wayne State in the early 80s and that's one of the society that I really wanted to join and I did join them. So there are several things that I try my best. I mean, there's so much you can do but help the society to reach across the different areas and to leverage more folks to join. And, for example, I've realized that from doing a tour to the Gordie Howe that there are a lot of members or folks are folks that are Canadians but are working in Detroit and vice versa. So one of the things that I think the society is looking into the possibility of reaching out to Windsor and Ontario and try to have more diversity and inclusion and having more members from across the river, which are probably the best neighbor, best partner that we could ever have. We learned all that, as you know, Jeff, from going through the project the Gordie Howe in the last 20 years from going through the project, the Gordie Howe, in the last 20 years.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, so, speaking of the Gordie Howe and obviously that's been your baby for the past really almost 20 years in terms of laying the groundwork early on and trying to make it happen and going through a lot of political machinations, all while you were doing a lot in community involvement. So that's important. That's a big part of your portfolio now, but your portfolio is expanding and what I really want to talk about and get people to understand is the things they don't teach you in engineering school the so-called soft skills and how to build relationships and how to build trust. And I've watched you up close and very personally when MDOT was, on behalf of Canada, acquiring land for the Gordie Howe International Bridge on the Detroit side, and some of the neighbors even while they conceded that they'd be better off financially and be better off in terms of where they were going to live, they struggled with moving.
Speaker 1:It's still hard, especially if you've been there your whole life and if you're of a certain age, you know it's still your home and one woman in particular, mrs Finn, was having a really hard time with it and when you came along and she remembered you from previous meetings. She just melted. She said oh Mohammed, thank you, do you really think you know this is the best thing? And and you assured her that it was, and it it always reminds me of an episode in in the TV show Cheers, where Norm was assigned to be the hatchet man for a company and he was supposed to fire people and he was so distraught and so so forlorn when he would meet with these people that they ended up comforting him, and so forlorn when he would meet with these people that they ended up comforting him. And that's what I've watched with you. How does that come to be that empathy and that genuine concern for the people, and talk about just how important it is to build that kind of respect?
Speaker 2:Very well put and this is probably one of the closest topics to my heart. I am very emotional when it comes to learning about people conversing with people, so I'll give you an example. It wasn't easy. It was something that I had to learn the hard way. So this is picture this.
Speaker 2:I'm in Delray, southwest Detroit. I'm in Delray, southwest Detroit, a community that has been underserved and had been going through a lot of trials and tribulations. You know, for example, you know being so close to Marathon Refinery, very close to Detroit Water and Sewage, one of the largest facilities in the country. Third, you have Zagail, where they make steel, I mean. And then, of course, I come in from Lansing and I say I'm from the government and I'm here to help you. I want to build a new international bridge. And the look on the people, the concern that people expressed.
Speaker 2:I was Jeff to humble myself and tell you the truth typical engineer. I knew everything about it. I have done a lot of research. I have the technical skillset. I am going to tell the people what I know and I think they should be very happy with it, and they taught me the hard way that that's not the case. They are the one who should be teaching us, because it's their area, it's their neighborhood, this is where they work, they play, they live, they make memories and to them that area is everything because it's multigenerational, so you know.
Speaker 2:So the idea is someone like me that, yes, a professional engineer has the technical skills but doesn't have the like you called it, jeff, perfectly set, I mean suited is the soft skills, which is the most important thing.
Speaker 2:If you're going to be a project manager, you really need to have that soft skill and learn it, whether it's the hard way or you learn it from someone who is mentoring you. So, long story short, I give it all to the community of Delray. I give it all to the community of Delray. Over the last 20 years I've learned so much and I am so grateful that I could stay on that project and be the face of the project, because it's hard when you do that kind of work and then you move on and then the community have to face a new person. So I think it helped it a lot that I was, I was, I was fortunate enough that I could say in my role with the department and representing the department on the on the Gordie Howe. So again, thank you for asking me the question. This is very close to my heart.
Speaker 1:Well, that heavy lifting and relationship building and, you know, salving the wounds from the way people had been treated previously, is what helped us get to where we are now, and we'll be celebrating with Canada very soon the actual physical connection of the bridge over the river. We're looking forward to that and we're just a little more than a year away from the opening. We're looking forward to that and we're just a little more than a year away from the opening, and it's nothing, nothing but good to say about that, and and you have a lot to do with that. But let's talk about other things, you know, talk about some other highlights of your time at MDOT.
Speaker 1:You were the project manager on the last freeway to be built in the state and I think people might forget that it's been more than 20 years since M6 south of Grand Rapids was built and since then, you know, all we've been doing is trying to maintain what we have. A lot of people would be surprised by that, but the road building they see going on is the rebuilding of old roads. I guess one exception to that would be M231, which is a two lane, not a freeway the Grand Haven bypass, but M6 still stands as the last freeway built in Michigan. Talk about your experience there.
Speaker 2:My experience with the South Belt line was so, so positive in so many ways. Again, I'll be honest with you, jeff. What I remember, not the one of the state-of-the-art interchange I-96 with M6, the type of structure, not all the different things that we had to do in terms of innovation and getting the best engineering possible. That's all good and impossible. That's all good. But I remember my relationship with the townships, my relationship with the city of Grand Rapids, the different communities. As you know, jeff, there are so many communities that were impacted by the 20 miles stretch and, again, it was going to be many years. Those that can remember I remember vividly it was a scheduled. It was in the 90s that the design for the project and it was scheduled to open to traffic in 2008. Basically, the governor himself decided or wanted that let's have the two. You know, once you complete the environmental impact statement or the environmental process, once you go into design, it's all done. That's not true. There is so much involvement during the design. I remember going and visiting folks at their workplace or their home, explaining to them what the wall is going to do, the noise wall is going to do to them. You remember probably also where we were impacting several of their properties and that was adjacent to the new, at the time, m6. And again, they were very concerned even during the construction. Even during the construction, what is that going to do to the rest of the people who are staying? And construction impacts, which we all know? It is there, but you have to, you know, work with them and assure them that it will be minimized and avoided as much as possible.
Speaker 2:So yeah, during that era, you know again former John Engler, who really wanted the schedule to be tightened and get things open faster, which still created I mean, obviously, impact on the community. But we learned again so much from that because the cooperation was so good, because the cooperation was so good. Once you explain things to people, once you are, you know, truthful transparency, you show them transparency, I think, to most people's expectations, people kind of become a little bit on the defensive. But what I found out, jeff, it's if you're open, if you're sincere, if you're really truly don't have a hidden agenda and you shouldn't I think you will get all the cooperation you need and relationship will stay for years to come. And, as you know, I am, I'm excited about our future endeavors that I will be taking on. Because the journey continues, we go to the next one, right.
Speaker 1:Well, so that's that goes to the challenge these days, though I think even back then, when you were working on an M6, we didn't live in nearly the fractured media environment that we do now, and there were. There were better ways, central ways to reach people with information, and now it's just so difficult because people get their information from so many different places and you just can't have a big public meeting and have a lot of people even know about it to show up and get that information up and get that information. You can't just run a legal ad in a newspaper and probably a lot of people don't even know what I'm talking about when I talk about legal ads and tell them that this project is going to happen and we want your input. So you have to find new and creative ways to get to people. And no matter what you do, there are still going to be people that show up and say, hey, nobody told me this was going on, what are you doing? And they're naturally skeptical and distrustful and they think that something's been baked and that you're hiding information.
Speaker 1:And I know you're dealing with that now. We're dealing with it as a department, with what's going on with I-375. All the transparency in the world still doesn't convince everybody that you're being completely open with them. Same thing you're dealing with now helping out with the Michigan Avenue project through Corktown in Detroit and on US 131 in Grand Rapids. So it puts more of a burden on you that that public involvement aspect and building trust and helping them understand that look aspect. And building trust and helping them understand that look, we're telling you everything and we're going to. You know, listen to the last question, the last comment, the last concern, If it. You know, if it takes all night. We want to hear what you have to say. So talk about how you do that and the patience that it takes.
Speaker 2:Jeff, I was so touched and so moved by a comment that you'll remember. Former Representative Steve Tabakuman put a message on LinkedIn remembering the days of the DREC Detroit River International Crossing, the former name of the newly Gordie Howard International Bridge.
Speaker 1:That's two names ago, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was exactly saying that this is so long time ago, my goodness, and now I see you know it's incredible. So he was taking the time to celebrate that something that was so much time was spent on it. And again I want to write back because it's but I will. But I want to write back and say Representative, if it wasn't for your, your involvement, your passion, your care, and I'm not, I'm. There are so many others but, for example, every time I turn around and look what Steve is doing he's helping communities, he's working with the Southwest Detroit and he's working with different, embracing those that need the help. He could have chose corporate, you know America type of job, but he chose to spend time with the people Now.
Speaker 2:So, to answer your question very precisely, in all those different projects you mentioned, the key is to try to find the people who are the closest to that community. In other words, we found, as you know, simone Zakovic for the Gordie Howe. She is someone tireless, thoughtful. She gave her heart and soul to the community of Southwest Detroit, delray. So when we partnered with her and earned her trust and she earned our trust, that gave us a tool that it cannot be replaced by anything else, all the things that you mentioned.
Speaker 2:Whether it's the internet, you know ads. They are nothing compared to the word of mouth because, as we all know, the best advertising is word of mouth, and it's still today, even with all the technology that is out there. So, again, whether it's a US 12, former councilwoman, sheila Cockrell, she's playing an incredible role, helping guiding the department to move and the city of Detroit to move in the right direction. Whether it's on the Gordy, simone Sagovic, whether it's in Windsor, sandwich Town, that's Marianne Kutterman, and there are others. Don't get me wrong. I'm probably leaving off some other names, but I'm giving an example of someone that is from the community, speaks the community language, able to partner with us and move mountains.
Speaker 1:We'll be right back. Stay tuned. If you need to get out and stretch your legs, don't forget about the annual Mackinac Bridge Walk. Make your plans to attend the walk on Labor Day and take in some of the best views in the state of Michigan on the Mighty Mac. For more information, go to mackinacbridgeorg slash walk to set up those projects and what we call planning and environmental linkages studies for both Michigan Avenue, us 12 in Detroit and US 131 in Grand Rapids is that we're doing all this in the same challenged funding environment.
Speaker 1:Michigan has underfunded transportation infrastructure for decades. Everything has to be done with that in mind. With the austerity is always paramount in everything, including the planning of these, and people will say that they know that. They'll say I know, I know that money is a challenge, but please just do this and everybody's got just this that they want. You know everybody's got a wish list and so that's another challenge you have to deal with. When you're talking at public meetings about these projects and you hear all the things that that people would like to include in those, whether it's completely rerouting the freeway, you know like let's, let's look at. Why can't we do what's being eyed for 375 everywhere? You know they have no concept of the billions of dollars that you'd be talking about and decisions that were made 50 and 60 years ago that we have to live with. We can try to make improvements and that's what you're trying to do. So talk a little bit about that, about what goes into Appell and how that process works.
Speaker 2:I think, jeff, the struggle is the chicken and the egg. Which one comes first? So, in other words, you know, when you're trying to get into a situation like the, for example, like you were saying, the US-12 or I-375 or US-131 in Grand Rapids, the question is, how do I engage the public? How do I get to know what is out there, really what is out there? So the PEL, as you describe it, the planning and environment kind of linkage, it's really like a feasibility study, it's like a study that precedes the environmental process, the environmental process. Most people will understand it when I say that's when you get into what we call the C analysis. S stands for social, e stands for economic and the second E is for environment. And environment could be, you know, physical and natural. So what I'm talking about it's pre the C analysis. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to get it complicated, but before you get to that, you want to engage the community, you want to hear from them, you want to know it's like, as best as you can, what is out there and what is the common desire. And also, in the case of someone saying, I respect it very much.
Speaker 2:So Someone had the idea, heard about this idea in another part of the country where we can take out a freeway and replace it with a boulevard. I had this conversation just recently on 131. And I told the gentleman, I said, why don't we walk through that and kind of give you a chance? And I assured him that we're going to take seriousness in every what we call feasible and prudent alternatives. So we studied them from the feasibility Is it something that we can ultimately construct? But then the second item is it really financially? Is that something that can be actually built from financial standpoint? And he really I can't speak for him, but the gentleman kind of appreciated that we are taking this matter very seriously.
Speaker 2:So when the citizen has an idea, we can't just dismiss it just from without giving them the due respect and the explanation as to why we are saying what we're saying. And show me you know, it's like the show me state, you know what is it that you're telling them. That will explain, you know, support your claim. So in summary, I believe that we showing sincerity, showing seriousness, taking the whatever comments we received very serious, and I think that's what we've done in the project that have been successful. I have to give our Canadian partners, who play a huge role in the public engagement. They do a phenomenal job in listening and showing that they build a trust, showing that they build a trust the community trusts them, in light of all the you know stereotypes that, oh, this is a Canadian project. To the contrary, it's US-Canada project, it's. We're working together and we showed that by earning the trust of the people.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, it's. Yeah, you can't say that enough. It's definitely a US Canada project. It's been incredible in doing what Mohamed does and making relationships and building trust. But just to be a little more specific, high level for a second talk, first about Michigan Avenue and what the hope for is when that project is completed, and then a little bit about US 131 in Grand Rapids.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for even getting a little deeper into this one, because this is close to my heart. It became close to my heart very quickly and people will tell me you love every project. I said that's true, you know, because I love it's not the project, I love the people. I said that's true, you know, because I love it's not the project, I love the people. And in this case, bob Roberts, who owns restaurants and he's a businessman and responsible for the for you know, the business association and just very active business owner and cares deeply about what we are about to do on Michigan Avenue between 96 and Campus Martius. So basically, in essence, the way it was explained to us by Bob and by the former councilwoman is we have issues and we want to know more about it and obviously we're talking about two center lanes for transit dedicated. They wanted to know more, tell me more, when is that going to show me the terminal, show me the, what's the ridership? Who's going to be there, and so on and so forth. They have a lot of questions and we're working very hard to get those questions answered for them.
Speaker 2:And of course, we have to be in alignment with the city of Detroit because the city is taking on half of that project and leading that project.
Speaker 2:So half is being done, apart from 96 to I think it's I'm trying to remember exactly where it is. Jeff to I think it's I'm trying to remember exactly where it is Jeff, but just about a mile and a half, a total of three miles. The first mile and a half is MDOT and then the second half is being done by the city. And so we sat down and we start working through the issues and, without taking all the time in the right now, all I can say is every issue has a potential solution that is suitable and agreeable by the community. Yeah, it's not going to be perfect, but it's going to be something that everybody can live with. And I can I cannot tell you enough the cooperation and just the professionalism that those two individuals have shown us in the past couple months, and we're going to continue to build those relationships. God willing, it will lead us to the conclusion at the end when everybody will be able to see what we're trying to do when everybody will be able to see what we're trying to do.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and the reason you do a very thorough Pell study is to try to take in input from all the various users. There's a demand for this growing corridor to be more multimodal, as more people homestead in that area and want to walk or ride their bikes, and you've got businesses that rely on that walking traffic, but it's still a through way for a lot of people. For a lot of people it's still a commuter route and then, as you say, part of being multimodal, in addition to bicycling and pedestrian use, is also transit, and Detroit and Wayne County and surrounding areas are trying to do more with that, working with the RTA. So it's factoring all that in, balancing it all. And, like you said, there's always going to be constituencies that want different things. But you keep listening and listening and trying to build as much consensus as you can. So that's that.
Speaker 1:As for 131 through downtown, grand Rapids, again built a long time ago when business leaders wanted the freeway to come through the city. Some people who, you know, build roads, built roads at the time in the Federal Highway Administration had better ideas about where a freeway should go, and maybe not through downtown, but that's what the leaders at the time wanted. And so now it's there and you're trying to kind of reimagine it, how you can still move lots of commercial and lots of commuter traffic but accommodate the people who live there and different needs of a younger, more vibrant community. So how are you doing all that?
Speaker 2:We've been talking about it a lot, of course, internally with this and with the City of Grand Rapids. City of Grand Rapids is playing a big role on this. As you know, jeff, they are the one who received the grant through the MEDC and they are just gems to work with. So they have a lot of ideas in terms of what we need to do to get there. So, yes, what we discovered, as you said perfectly during the study the PEL, the planning and environment linkage we discovered that there is a lot of need to do something with those interchanges. Obviously, they are so close together. So you're talking about Wealthy, you're talking about Cherry and you're talking about MLK. They're close together and they are, you know, obviously from the 60s and 50s. Those designs, you will never see them today in a new design. So they need to be modernized, brought up to standards and make mobility as a theme across that area. There's so much that goes in there. So many people attracted love to come and spend and play and have fun in Grand Rapids and live in Grand Rapids. So we need to hear from the people. But what's important, jeff, we cannot take just the interchange and of course, they have ideas Like, for example, the wealthy currently is not that great. I mean, it's over 131. So 131 is depressed and wealthy is on top and their idea is to make that area more walkable, is to flip that and make the wealthy to be at grade and have the freeway to be on top. And again, we need to show them, show the community, the pros and cons with each option. So put them all on the table and that's what we're planning.
Speaker 2:To take it to the next step. We did a lot during the PEL, but I think during the early study. But now we're going to take it further, to assess it. But you cannot do it, like I was trying to say is, without understanding 131 itself, because 131 is very dated and requires, you know, modernization. So you need to include your analysis with 131, and people will see the full picture when you do it together.
Speaker 2:So we're planning to engage a lot of people. We are planning and we're not. I think some people think that we're done with this study. We're not done. We've got a lot more work to do and I want to tell everyone that we're going to be sitting with you at your own meetings, we're going to come to your community, we're going to spend time, not unlike what we just did a couple of weeks ago, where we met in a popular place, place that you can find in the area and community leaders came and we had a great discussion with the city of Grand Rapids, with the city of Grand Rapids, and I plan, we plan, to do this again and again, and again until we have reached that trust. And that trust will only come when you build it and work at it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's a good point that you made. You gotta knock down the myth that once the Pell is complete that things are done. That's really, in some ways, just the beginning of the process. So, yeah, and in terms of the wealthy street overpass and doing wealthy at grade, that's something that Suzanne Schultz, the former city planner in Grand Rapids, was talking about years ago. She's on the State Transportation Commission now.
Speaker 1:I know that she really likes that at least as one tangible thing that you could do with the freeway through downtown. The downtown market is right there near that wealthy street interchange and that would make that more accessible for people coming from further north. So there's a lot of good things that could come out of just that component, but it's still got a huge price tag and finding the money for these things is going to be the next challenge. But, Mohamed, I think that we've covered a lot for today. I want to say congratulations again on the award and I hope that the people who gave it to you realize that it isn't all about you know designing and planning projects and what you do as an engineer, but really what you do as a relationship builder and as a facilitator and how important that is to the work.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, Jeff. I appreciate your time and I appreciate giving me that opportunity talking about a subject that I care about deeply.
Speaker 1:I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation. You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Buzzsprout. I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Debler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, Courtney Bates, who posts the podcast to various platforms, and Jackie Salinas, who transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.