Doubles Only Tennis Podcast

Matt Ebden Interview: The State of Professional Doubles

• Will Boucek • Episode 166

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0:00 | 23:04

This conversation with Australian Open Champion, Matt Ebden, focuses on the state of professional doubles and where it might go over the next several years.

Helping to make pro doubles more popular is one of my passions and missions for Tennis Tribe and this podcast, so I was excited to chat with Matt about this topic.

Matt is the 3rd ranked doubles player on the ATP tour, a 3-time grand slam champion, and reached a career-high of #39 in singles. He is also on the ATP Player's Council and involved in many of the meetings that will impact the future of doubles. I asked him to update us on where doubles stands and what needs to happen going forward.

Here's a bit of what you'll learn.

  • Will we see more mixed doubles tournaments at 1000-level events like Indian Wells did this year?
  • What three changes would Matt make if given full reigns of the tour?
  • How to perform better mentally during pressure situations on the doubles court.

After having this conversation, I'm optimistic and excited about the future of professional doubles.

See the shownotes for this episode here: https://www.thetennistribe.com/matt-ebden-interview/


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Doubles Tennis

Speaker 1

You're about to hear an update on professional doubles, both where it stands today and where it might go over the next several years. So if you've been listening to the podcast for a while then you know I really have two passions and kind of two goals with the Tennis Tribe as well as the doubles only tennis podcast. Number one is double strategy. So I'm obsessed with double strategy, with shot selection, with positioning, with movement, and I try to teach the best tactics and strategy to both club level players as well as college players and even some players on the pro tour. And then the second passion that I really have is making professional doubles more popular. It just does not make sense to me that if I go to a local club here in Fort Worth, texas, where I live, or in California or Florida or really almost anywhere in the world, that most adult players are playing doubles, but then when they go home at night they're watching singles on TV. I feel like there's a big disconnect here. I feel like professional doubles should be more popular and that's why I started the Watch More Doubles campaign, the T-shirts, back at Indian Wells several years ago and in this conversation with world number three Matt Abdon, we talk all about that. So if you're not familiar with Matt, he is a three time Grand Slam champion. He won the Australian Open earlier this year. Alongside Rohan Bopana, he's currently ranked number three in the world in doubles. He also had a career high singles ranking of number 39 in the world and he's on the ATP players council. So he's very involved in a lot of the meetings that are going on to help decide kind of what to do with the doubles tour.

Speaker 1

So, like I said, we caught up at Indian Wells and we started out talking about this mixed doubles invitation that Indian Wells decided to do. It seemed like it was kind of a last minute thing and I was really excited to see them experiment and try something different and provide more doubles for fans on the grounds to watch. So they had eight teams during week two of the tournament compete for a little bit of prize money in an invitational tournament and Matt was a part of that. He ended up actually winning the title there and I asked him if we can expect to see more of this going forward at some of these bigger events. So he answers that question. I also asked him what three changes he would make if he were given full reigns to the tour to try to help make doubles more popular, and the Indian Wells Twitter account.

Speaker 1

I think it's at BNP Perry Bot Open they actually tweeted out watch more doubles to help announce the launch or the start of this mixed doubles tournament, which was really exciting for me to see the campaign kind of get onto a bigger stage. So I think it's just a start, but it was really exciting to see and Matt talks a lot about it and what we can expect to see in the future. And then at the end he talks about some of the mental side of the game, which is something we're focused on this month, as most of you know. So I asked him for some mental tips to help with pressure points, with 10 point tiebreakers, different things like that. So this is a pretty focused conversation on professional doubles and then a few mental tips for those of you who are more interested in improving your own game at the end as well. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Matt Epton. All right, we're here at Indian Wells with three time Grand Slam champion, matt Epton. Matt, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2

Thank you, great to be on.

Speaker 1

So we're going to talk doubles. You just finished your mixed doubles match at Indian Wells, which today is literally the first day We've been able to say something like that. Talk a little bit about the event going on here.

Speaker 2

I think it's excellent. I think it's great, not just obviously for doubles but for tennis as a whole. You know there's hundreds of thousands of fans come through the gates here. I mean, our first round doubles match here was, you know, packed stadium. You couldn't get a seat. It was loud, it was crazy, it was rowdy. It was a great model and concept that we're looking for for doubles.

Speaker 2

Now, you know, with the marketing, we're looking to make it really fan friendly and engage the fans, pull people in, you know, market the players, the skills and even the rivalries, obviously with doubles teams, but then doubles teams versus singles guys and you know those sort of grudge matches as well. And you know, obviously most people who play tennis in the population play doubles because you know, as they get older, doubles is easier physically, let's say so you know a lot of people can relate to it. And now for them to add this mixed doubles event I think it's some more recognition of that. You know that these two week Masters events, they obviously know they've got a lot of the world's best players around. Some have lost and some are, you know, sort of, let's say, available to do something. So to run, let's say, an exhibition tournament or an invitational tournament in the mixed doubles is excellent and I I personally saw the excitement and growth of mixed doubles in Australia this year in the United Cup.

Speaker 2

I played with Storm Hunter and For Australia and we won quite a few clutch matches for Australia in that United Cup to get us through all the way to the semi finals. And we lost 11-9 in the semis against Varev and Siegman. They saved match points. And same thing. You know the mixed doubles was the deciding factor Throughout that whole event until the very final as well, which was decided by mixed doubles. So we're seeing that now, the importance of it, and then we're seeing now also in Davis Cup these last few years, same thing it's two doubles, one sorry, two singles, one doubles. So the doubles point is worth just as much as your number one singles point, right, so it's, it's made the enormity and the importance of, you know, a great, great doubles players or great doubles team, as Important as your top 10 singles player in those events. So you know there is opportunity for it to grow for sure?

Speaker 1

So we were just talking before the recording about Kind of what potentially is to come for doubles. Will we see more of these mixed doubles tournaments and then talk a little bit about kind of what's going on overall? Since you're on the players council, you were saying you're having meetings here at Indian Wells about doubles Just update everybody on kind of the state of doubles and what they can expect going forward.

Revitalizing the Doubles Tour

Speaker 2

Yeah, firstly, I think, yes, I think you will see more of these sorts of events, especially, you know, mixed doubles too. I think, though, as the world gets more and more Well valuing diversity, let's say, and male and female equality, let's say, sure, people love seeing the dynamic a man and a woman playing tennis together against another man and woman, like it's a fascinating thing that happens, and another sports exactly.

Speaker 2

It's very unique selling point for tennis. I can't really think of almost any sport in the world that does it. So you know we're potentially at the forefront of something here as well and that's attractive for sponsors, for events, for, you know, even governments or councils around the world as well. So that's one thing. Yeah, I'm on the ATB council and yeah, we've had a doubles review committee the last Six or seven months and you know we're still it's a working Doubles review, let's say, just trying to iron out exactly the purpose of doubles where it fits amongst the tour, you know it's where its value is and where it isn't, what its purpose is and what it isn't. And you know we're hearing from people tournament directors, grand slams, the players themselves, x players, the ATP fans, let's say, data analytics people. We have one of our marketing guys also on that review. So just working out how to maximize the asset of doubles for the, for the ATP.

Speaker 1

And there was some recent, a recent interview with Jamie Murray and I felt like a lot of people's reaction to that was pretty I don't want to say negative, but like kind of worried about doubles. Is that something that you feel like doubles is at risk a little bit or do you feel like a positive sentiment coming from the tour and in these meetings?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I saw that article recently and read it. It did have probably a negative undertone. Let's say. I think Jamie comes from that place of like, come on, guys, if you don't do something we're going to lose, that type thing. But for me that's not the case at all. I would argue doubles is, I mean, close to at its best point, if not at its best, just because of what the last 20 years has held. You know, you obviously had all the greats before, and then you had the Woodies and then you had the Bryant's, and the Bryant's were instrumental and very grateful for what they did for the sport as a whole and they're still in a big icons here in America, even being retired. They're still very important and anything we do in doubles, they will still remain as ambassadors, a part of that.

Speaker 2

I actually talked to Jamie after that. Jamie, very knowledgeable, been in the doubles game a long time. He's now tournament director at Queens and he was on the ATB council a long time too. So I wanted to get his thoughts and also fill him in on what we had discovered, let's say, in the last six months of this doubles review. And you know half the things he was saying, or half, or more three quarters even. I fully agree with him in a lot of his points there, but a few of them weren't quite right.

Speaker 2

We've found, just because of you know, we've been on this exploration trail this last six or eight months trying to work out exactly what's what. Because there's a lot of hearsay. You know, people say this, they think this, they feel this, but without any stats or backing up it doesn't really mean anything. So we've tried to go to what actually is happening. Where's the actual value, the actual purpose? Where do tournaments see the value? Where do players see the value and how does it all fit together?

Speaker 2

So no, I'm not so worried and for me even the more entities, let's say, talking or considering doubles, the more chatter about it, actually the better. I mean, you probably know in America you guys are world leaders in this, but there's almost no such thing as bad press. So I'd rather much rather all these people be caring and thinking and worrying about doubles than no one caring about it. And so yeah, we're. I think we're on a reasonably exciting path to do a couple little things. Short term we can start to action, to start it on that upward trajectory of just maximizing its value, and then there's potentially some other things we can try and experiment with in future in, you know, in another year or two.

Speaker 1

So I know there's a lot of moving parts to this and you have meetings with, you know, probably a dozen people or more sometimes. But I want to, for a second, say let's say we had like a billion dollars and we just bought the doubles tour. Right now, what three changes would you make starting tomorrow?

Speaker 2

I would probably make two under a head lineup because I think the product as it is the doubles product it's not the product. It's not the game, because we see out there at slams or in these tournaments, we can get full crowds for doubles. Yes, having singles guys with big names massively helps. They draw crowds. But so those people are coming to watch the entertainment and it's clearly not the product because if it was the doubles that they didn't like or hated, they wouldn't come and watch. But there's often big crowds. They even play here tie break tens where the mix doubles right and the level of, let's say, doubles or mixed doubles from a professional sense is pretty sort of low. People don't care and it's not the product because they're playing mixed doubles and all these people are watching. So they're watching people. They know people from their country, people they've seen before Sure single stars. That helps, of course.

Speaker 2

But why are those people single stars? I mean, some of them have never won slams, some of them have never been top ten, but if they're, you know recently top players in their own country, they get marketed a lot and this was something that singles went through 15, 20 years ago and I was part of it. When I broke into top sort of 70 and singles myself, I was 23. And at that time they were marketing heavily probably the top three guys, you know Rafa Roger and sort of Andy Murray. And then Novak was coming in there and those sort of three or four guys and we were like, well guys, I mean, if you want all the tournaments to succeed, not just the majors, at the end of the pointy end of the tournament you need to be marketing 50, 100 guys, never mind five. So I saw that increase to marketing 10 guys, 20, then added the next gen. There was a whole another 10 guys. Then they started marketing all 50, all top 100 guys, almost because all these guys from their own country. If they're playing in their own country, the guy from their own country ranked 65, we'll get more people coming to watch and support than a guy ranked 15 in the world from somewhere else that they don't really care about. So doubles has the opportunity at ground zero.

Speaker 2

So point one I would say is marketing, and this is something we've seen on our review. It's virtually at ground zero from a marketing stance. There's been like byproduct marketing or you know, as he has gone by the Woodies, the Bruins, and they've done all their own things here and there, but it's just been byproduct of their success, their winning tournaments. There's never been a focused marketing strategy, plan or push for marketing the doubles game or the doubles stars. Let's say so.

Speaker 2

That's one that's by far and away the biggest one, and a lot of people even been joking with me in meetings here the last couple of weeks. I said come on, man, if we can market pickleball as a sport, we can market the doubles tour. I mean we've got 100 years of history and heritage and lineage on our side. Like if you can market people on a concrete bashing a bat and a ball around their backyard and you can market that into a sport. You know doubles I mean leap years ahead of all that. We have incredible tradition, history, all the majors, all the great teams. You know our sports there, all the fans, whatever.

Speaker 2

So marketing number one. Number two and these are the two things we can action I'm hoping to action quickly on the tour with the ATP and the tournaments. Number two is make the doubles court and the doubles game and atmosphere a lot more relaxed. Etiquette for fans, engagement and for tournaments to be able to, let's say, have a doubles court out there or around the doubles have low level of music even playing consistently. People that are come and go, people that have drinks, make it be more like a party atmosphere. You know, we've come in even in tennis as a whole. We looked at the NBA model and the show that they put on at an NBA game. People go there just to watch all the show, not even basketball.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's great so that singles is so cutthroat physically and mentally that you can't really do some of those things, whereas doubles is much shorter points and it's much more just execution based and so there is a lot of, let's say, dead time in between points. Games which can be used for fans to engage can be fun, it can be relaxed. Like I want doubles to be the party, I want singles to thrive and be the main. It's gonna be the main event. It is. I want everyone to be there watching the singles. It's cutthroat there on the edge of their seats. Go watch your singles for two hours and then when you wanna go have some food, have a drink, let's go. And there's music out there, let's go watch the doubles. There's a DJ playing. Have a drink, talk to the doubles guys while they're playing. I mean in between points, in between games sets, let's make that engaging. So we're relaxing the etiquette and even quickening it up. So no, sit down after the first game, let's just go straight, play three games before we sit down. Changeovers don't have to be a minute and a half, they could be 45 seconds. We play always quick, ready to go. If it's not going that much on TV yet, we don't have to sit down for TV changeovers yet. It's about the product and once we grow that in the value, the better.

Speaker 2

The other thing, the third change I will make okay, I do have a third is on the scheduling. So we've found this by looking and asking the tournaments, let's say Cincinnati Masters, for example where do they see the value of doubles and where does it fit? Where do they want it? Why do they want it? And they said even having top singles players play. Because for a while now the hearsay has been oh, we have to have the singles players playing doubles to get crowds and make it important. Yes, you do, but you need them playing and playing properly and all the way to the end of the tournament, or else it's better they don't play it. It's no good for anyone, or the product or the sport or the tournament or that player, to play one match and pull out or to just use it as a practice for their singles.

Speaker 2

So they also want to push doubles a little bit back later in the tournaments. And it's a second week event in the slams, in the Masters or even on the eight day Masters events. It's later in the week, it's the last four days of the event type thing and because it's a content filler in certain ways. It's before the singles, it's after the singles, the quarterfinals or if there's a pullout, they're struggling for matches. They've at least got two doubles to go on, and also then you get on bigger courts, better courts. Then it also might even cross over on some TV broadcasts.

Speaker 2

So they needed them. They said they don't need Rubelev playing doubles on the first day of the tournament. Yeah, because they've got 55 singles matches which everyone's coming anyway. All the crowds are there anyway to watch all the singles, everything anyway. They said they need like by the middle of the week or later in the event when there's down to the last eight singles matches.

Strategic Tactics for Club Tennis

Speaker 2

You know that's like already 80% of the singles players are all left and gone and the matches are all done. There's a lot of schedule gaps and holes. So by pushing that back and playing more towards the end of the event, it can also allow the singles players who lose in the first round or second round to then decide if they wanna play doubles and stick around for the rest of the second week and go oh, do I wanna practice now that I've lost and wait around for the next event. You know what? Maybe I'll play doubles. Let's try win the doubles. Boom, get the. You know they can practice play the doubles matches. Try and win the event. That's what you want. So that's where it's at.

Speaker 1

That all makes tons of sense. There's a lot of stuff I've pushed for as well. Where, at 15 minutes, do you need it on?

Speaker 2

I'll do a couple of sharpshooter questions, if you have them. Okay, a couple of two line answers.

Speaker 1

Let's just end with mental tips for the club players. So anything that you like to do that might help them for, either like pressure points, deciding points or tie breakers.

Speaker 2

I mean the biggest thing I would say. I mean I play casually with some club players, social players, I play pro-amps, I play friends and family who play casually and you know whatever. So I see what happens and I think the best tips I could give them is, obviously one don't overplay. I think there's no good at club level trying to hit an amazing winner on a big point or go for a second service if your level is clearly not gonna, let's say, statistically, give you the percentage that you're probably gonna make that and win that point, there's probably not much chance you're gonna hit a second service on break point. If you're playing a club level, let's say it's a hard trust truth. It's not to say you can't do it. But let's say if I give you 10 break points and you have a second serve, you know probably twice out of 10. So those are not odds you want to take. So you know it's about giving yourself the chance. So you need a ball's got to go in, you've got to play the percentages make the other guys hit the crazy winners if they want to try and win. You know it's much lower percentage. So percentage tennis I would say for club players on big points and I think that's going to raise the level overall Mentally.

Speaker 2

I mean it's about staying present. So you know people worry. It's a break point, it's a this point, it's a game point, it's a match point. They're worried what it means, what this or that. Try and stay present, bring yourself to what can you do to try and win that point. That's all that's going to help you. There's no good thinking. I hope I win this point. What if I don't win this point? What if I lose? There's no good all those thoughts, but they're natural, human thoughts. Everyone will have best way. Just bring yourself back to as simple as possible and just try to be present and say, okay, what's my best chance? What do I have to do to win this point? And go for it. Give it a symbol.

Speaker 1

Awesome. Thanks a ton Of course.

Speaker 2

Yeah, thanks.