Doubles Only Tennis Podcast

Paul McNamee Interview: Hsieh Su-wei Stories, Team Roles, Strengths & Weaknesses, & Doubles Strategy

• Will Boucek • Episode 183

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Paul McNamee is one of the best doubles players AND doubles coaches of all time. He has four men's doubles major titles, plus a Wimbledon mixed title. Today, he's best known for being the mastermind coach behind one of the best and most entertaining doubles players in today's game, Hsieh Su-wei.

Paul joined me as the grass court season was just getting started. We chatted about his career, doubles strategy, and of course, Su-wei.

  • How does Paul create a game plan for Hsieh with new doubles partners?
  • Why he switched from a one to a two-handed backhand during his career (he's the only pro player to do this successfully)
  • How often Hsieh breaks her strings - funny story 🤣
  •  The different roles Hsieh has played during her most recent major titles - French Open (Wang), Wimbledon (Strycova), Australian Open (Mertens)

There are few people on the planet with as much doubles knowledge as Paul so this is an episode you might listen to more than once. You'll learn something new every time.

See the shownotes for this episode here: https://www.thetennistribe.com/paul-mcnamee-interview/

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Strategic Insights From Paul McNamee

Speaker 1

Today you're going to hear my conversation with one of the smartest doubles minds in our sport. Paul McNamee has four men's doubles Grand Slam titles. He is a former world number one in doubles. He also has one mixed doubles major title. He was the tournament director for the Australian Open for 12 years and today he is best known as the coach of Shea Su Wei, who has seven Grand Slam titles, one mixed major title and is one of the best doubles players of all time and certainly one of the most entertaining as well.

Speaker 1

In this conversation we kind of bounce around a bit. Paul shares several stories from his own playing career. We talk about how the game of doubles has changed over the years, and he shares several stories with Sue Way as well. You're going to get a lot out of this in terms of both insights into Paul's career, into what it's like being a coach on tour, as well as into doubles strategy. Like I said, he's one of the smartest doubles minds in our sport, so I asked a lot of strategic questions and I told him before we started recording that a lot of the listeners are club level doubles players looking to improve and I could really tell he took that to heart and tried to incorporate a lot of strategic and tactical advice for you that you can implement into your own game.

Speaker 1

So we start out with talking about game plans. How does he help Su Wei create a game plan with a brand new doubles partner? You'll be able to implement some of that yourself. We also talk about how he was able to switch from a one to a two-handed backhand during his playing career. We talk a little bit about technique. We discuss pre-match routines, how he game plans for a match. We talk about scouting. We talk about choosing return sides. He has a story with Sue Way and her current partner, elise Mertens, and how they switched return sides early on in their partnerships several years ago. We also talk about the mental side of the game and improvement there. How do you perform well under pressure? Is it more important to hide or try to avoid an opponent's weapon or attack their weakness? He has a very specific philosophy on that. And then at the end, we also discuss his plans for the Olympics with Su Wei and how to make doubles more popular.

Speaker 1

So, like I said, I feel like this is one of those episodes you can listen to multiple times and get something different out of it each time, because Paul is one of those guys that understands doubles on such a deep level and you can really rewind and replay a lot of this conversation and hear different lessons out of it each time. So, without further delay, enjoy this conversation and hopefully we'll have a round two with Paul McNamee. Hey, everyone, welcome to the show. Today. We have Paul McNamee on. Paul welcome, thanks, will. So I'm excited to have this conversation. There's a lot of notes and prep I did for this and there were some listener questions from Instagram and Twitter, which I, sue Wei adjusts to playing with different partners, so I wanted to kind of start with a little bit of a thought experiment. So let's say, the US Open starts tomorrow, or Australian Open, wimbledon, whatever it is.

Speaker 1

And let's say she decides to play with me. Let's say I'm a female and I'm actually good enough, which I'm not. But let's say she decides to play with me and you have to create a game plan for us. One of the things you said on Twitter is you would ask a lot of questions. Let's just kind of role play it and go through it. What would you ask me? How do we create this game plan?

Speaker 2

Well, this in fact happened a year ago at Roland Garros, the French Open, when Sue Wade didn't have a partner and was just coming back after a year and a half out of the game and had no ranking whatsoever, but had a protected ranking and she didn't have a doubles partner. And so she said you know, with five minutes to go. In the silence, she said look, there's a Chinese girl. I've never seen her play. Will I sign up with her? I said is she tall? Do you think she can serve? She said, yeah, she's tall. So I said well, that'll work, just sign up with her and I'll set up the game plan for you guys. It was Gina Wong and they're unseated, never played together before and they won the French Open. So that actually happened just over a year ago.

Speaker 1

Okay.

Speaker 2

And obviously I had to meet the girl, the lady, and then talk about what a you know, an honest conversation about his strengths, knowing that what Sueway would be looking for. Obviously, Sueway hasn't got the biggest serve in the world, so we prefer to play with someone who serves okay. After that, which side do you play? Which role they play? Because I'm very big on the two players in a team having a role and I'm very open-minded, especially coaching Sue Way, who can be dominant either at the back of the court or at the front of the court, so she's either the queen at the baseline or the queen at the net. So I'm trying to find out from Gina which queen's role she's going to play and then Sue Way will work around it and set it up. So I'm very big on not having dominance on the left or right sides, but dominance in the forecourt and the backcourt, like the offense and the defense in American football. I'm very big on that.

Speaker 1

Okay, so in this case, sue Wade is the dominant player in the front of the court, I assume.

Speaker 2

She was with Gina? Yeah, she was. And Gina hits the ball big. She's a pretty good singles player too. She's gone top 30 in singles and hits the ball big and that's fine. That's really all we're looking for.

Speaker 2

And then after that, once you've got the setup, you've got to play your role. It doesn't matter that you might be able to do other things well, you need to play your role on a doubles court and knowing what that is. So you've kind of got to act. It's like being in a Hollywood movie. That's your role in this particular set or scene. And Sue Way's role varies on a partner. Her role with Gina was completely different to her role when she won Wimbledon a few weeks later with Barbara Strickeva. I mean, it was completely the opposite, completely the opposite role with two-way players. She went from the queen at the net to the queen at the baseline. So you do your set-up based on the complementary strengths of the players. That's the primary ingredient to a good doubles, successful doubles team. Then, of course, you've got to look at the opponents, of course, but the first thing first is get your own act together, get your own roles right.

Speaker 1

How do you balance that, and has this changed for you? Um, having a baseliner and then a net player, whereas it used to be the case and you know when, when you played, for example everybody was all about serving volley get two to the net. How does that? How, when you played, for example, everybody was all about serving volley. Get two to the net.

Speaker 2

How does that?

Speaker 1

how has that changed for you over the years and how do you kind of balance that that?

Speaker 2

together. It is a change in mindset and and and I guess it was an embarrassing situation involved in the uh, in the first wimbledon final. Sue played in 2013 with with Punxsue when they played Ash Barty and Casey Delacroix, and Punxsue is one of the best baseline players in the world. I mean, she could just she could fire backhands like a machine gun from the back of the court. So you know, just put Punxsue there, she's just going to fire backhands like you can't believe. And then Sue could sort of clean up at the net.

Speaker 2

So the thing was we had an issue holding Su Wei, because Peng wasn't the greatest volleyer and Su Wei was one of the greatest serves, so that was always going to be the game that was a problem. So we kind of wanted Peng Shui to be back when Su Wei was serving. And then the thing was that Barty and Delac were back as well and look, our girls won that final in straight sets. And you know there'd be two Australians which wasn't popular in Australia coaching against the Aussies. But the thing is, and I got back and packed cash and even Frank Sedgman the legendary Frank Sedgman is still alive. You know the living legend we call him. He won Wimbledon back in the 50s they were saying before how embarrassing was that You're coaching two girls who are at the baseline and there were four women playing at the baseline on Wimbledon centre court in a final. You know, and you know it's a little embarrassing. I said, well, can you tell me what you do when your player can't really serve that big and a partner can't volley that?

Speaker 1

well, you just tell me how to set it up.

Maximising Strengths and Minimising Weaknesses

Speaker 2

I'm just going with what I think can win here. Okay, yeah, so you've got to adjust according to the strengths of your own team and then, as I said, that can vary because you know, sue has played in different roles and that's why she's one of the doubles greats, because she can actually play at both ends of the court really well and we can compliment her with whoever. It really doesn't matter who she plays with and at the end of the day, in doubles there's an optimal setup with whoever you're playing with. If I'm playing with you, we've got an optimal setup. If I'm playing with Sue Ann Mix, there's an optimal setup. There's always an optimal setup. So the key of a coach is to find that setup and then marry that into the strengths and witnesses of your opponent and hone in really hone in on the on the one thing in your opponent's games that's going to give you trouble. What's the one thing, what's the biggest threat to you winning this match and how do you remove that as a factor from the match. I'm very big on that.

Speaker 1

So it sounds like you're prioritizing as far as game planning against opponents, it sounds like you're prioritizing removing the opponent's biggest strength rather than attacking their biggest weakness. Is that right?

Speaker 2

Absolutely. Oh, don't worry, don't worry, look, you attack weaknesses but in the end you know you will lose because of someone's weapon. I mean, the biggest weapon on the court wins. I mean, that's the reality. So you want your weapons to be the key to the match and not your opponent's weapons. And because you can't overdo it, you know I like to pick on the number one thing of the opponent. It could be you know their cross-court return, so you've got to play. Either stop that happening, or it could be someone's crossing a lot serial crosser. You know someone like Townsend who does that very well. I mean, how do you take that out of the match? So I'm very big on having enormous respect and knowing that there are other things that their opponents can hurt you with. But if you take out the one thing that, the that they tend to use to dominate in a match, you're well on the way to winning the match how does somebody so for somebody listening who's not a professional player but a club level player?

Speaker 1

how do they go about finding the biggest strength? One problem I see with a lot of players at the club level is that they'll see their opponent hit some huge forehand that. I know is going to go in 50% of the time, but they see it as a big shot and they're like, oh, we don't want to hit them a forehand. How do you go about?

Speaker 2

finding that strength. Yeah, players bluff. I mean I can tell them the hitter, you can tell them the warm-up, normally what their strengths are. So the other thing is look, the biggest shot in the game is a king forehand, right, I mean Rafa's forehand is the greatest shot in the history of the sport, there's no question about it. And then Alcaraz, he's not hitting it quite as well right now, but for a while he had the biggest right-hand forehand. I mean, even though he won Roland Garros, he played actually better last year in my opinion.

Speaker 2

But you know, if you want to know if someone's got a big forehand in the first game, hit a ball down the middle. If they take that on the backhand and not on the forehand, you already know what's happening here. They've obviously got a better backhand, because no one with a big forehand will ever, will ever not take that mid-court ball on the backhand side if they can hit a forehand. So you find out that information very quickly, because sometimes you're not sure whether your opponent's got a better backhand or forehand. Just go down the middle and see what they do. No player in the history of the game will not take a forehand if they've got a big forehand. So you've already got the information. So now you know on big points you want to find their forehand.

Speaker 2

The other thing is that players bluff. They want you to think you've got their big forehand. So what they do is they rip a couple in a match to try and scare you. It's a bluff. I mean, you've got to be aware of the bluff and you know I learned that very early in my career that you know the bluff is a very powerful thing so you've got to be aware that players are trying to bluff you all the time.

Speaker 2

I find that players in the warm-up tend to practice their weakness because they're trying to get that right before the match. So if a player is sort of focusing on one thing in the warm-up, that's very important information. So I'm looking for that information before I go to a match. You know if you're a club player, but in club tennis it's more important in doubles to maximise your strengths and minimise your weaknesses as a team. In singles there's no place to hide. If you're going to weak backhand, they're going to find it In doubles. If you've got a weak backhand, you hit the backhand return and they never see it again. Okay, they never see it again that you hit the backhand return and they never see it again.

Speaker 2

Okay they never see it again. That's the only backhand they'll ever see. That's how I play. Yeah, well, and I hope you play on the outside I do yeah, okay okay, yeah great, I just run around my backhand every time exactly, exactly. And second serve, they're never going to see your backhand and and look, you know it's not a bad way to play. I mean, I've got me to number one in the world, so it kind of works okay, yeah exactly, so I wanted to ask a question.

Speaker 1

Uh, so on your wikipedia page it says that you're the only pro player to ever switch from a one to a two-hander on the pro tour. Is that still true and why did you do that and how did you do that?

Unique Talent and Strategy Preparation

Speaker 2

Yeah, look, it's only true, it is true. And there's a young Aussie, matt Delavadova, who's late 20s, who's trying to do it right now. But look, it's a very hard thing to do. I just love watching Bjorn Borg play and you know, I saw the final when Borg played Veles in the final of Nice and they're ripping balls higher than the net with topspin and not missing. I mean, that was not the way the game was played. The game was played like Connors or John Newcombe when I grew up, serving volley et cetera, et cetera. So I was fascinated by these Europeans and South Americans hitting so much topspin, which wasn't the case when I grew up in Australia, on grass in particular. So I switched to a Western forehand. The next day after I saw those guys, I changed my grip to the Western forehand grip, you know. Obviously it was horrible for a couple of weeks. Then it kicked in and then finally, I was in a conversation with Chris Lewis from New Zealand, who made the final of Wimbledon one year in singles.

Speaker 2

Pretty good result lost to McEnroe, and another friend, Dave Carter, Spades, from Australia, and we were just talking in our condo in Florida and another friend, dave carter, space, from australia, and we were just talking in our condo in florida and we're just talking about what we regretted in the sport and I said, look, I really regret I didn't have a two-handed backhand because you know my one-hand slice is so bad and you know, and I I play golf, left hand and I wish I maybe had it in space said, you know, dave carter, he said why don't you switch? And chris lewis was just horrified, my friend, I mean, because he he said why don't you switch? And Chris Lewis was horrified, my friend, because he said, you know, he knew I was a little bit crazy. He said don't even think about that, Don't even consider it. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. But you know, I did think about it and after Peter McNamara and I the late Peter McNamara, Greg Kier and I we won our first ATP doubles tournaments in Nice and Cairo I made the decision of flying back to Florida, to Mr Hopman's Tennis Academy at Baltimore, in Florida, to become Saddlebrook. I decided to switch. I said you know what, I'm going to go all in and I said from that moment I'll never hit another one-handed backhand again. If it doesn't work I'll quit the game and go back.

Speaker 2

I had a science degree. I finished law school. You know I've got to be better than the 90th best. You know lawyer, I mean, you know I was ranked top 100, which is decent. But I knew I was never going any higher. So I went. I decided to go all in and I knew if I didn't you know, didn't go all in, that I would, under pressure, I'd go back to one-handed backhand. So I decided to go all in. Copied Bjorns wasn't as good but it was pretty decent and ended up, you know, going top 25 singles and number one in the world of doubles and you know it kind of worked out right.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I'd say so. Yeah, I'd say so, yeah. So back to Sue. I'm curious how much you coach technique with her versus strategy and the mental side because her technique is so unusual.

Speaker 2

Yeah, Her late father gave her the technique, which is two hands on both sides, and her brothers and sisters play the same way. Younger sister's on the tour a little bit she's two hands both sides. Her man, her other brother, tommy, who's with us a lot, he's two hands both sides. And another younger brother who won some doubles Grand Slams in juniors. He was two hands both sides but he switched to a one-hander on the forehand side. So you know Sue White's father just I don't know he wasn't a player or anything, he just believed in that. So, and Sue White, I mean they took up tennis at a very young age where it was hard to lift the racket they didn't have the light rackets back then so she played two hands, both sides.

Speaker 2

It was one of the questions we got on on twitter was that you know she's got two two-handed backhands. In fact they're two two-handed forehands because she switches grips on every shot. Can you imagine your whole career having to change grips on two hands on every ball because most two-handers on both sides, like jean mayer and you know what was in my era got to four in the world? Um sent, you know, sandy mayer's a good player to his brother, but Sheen May. I mean they play cross-handed on one side. They don't change grips on every ball. She changes grips on every single ball, which is unbelievable. And so, no, we never talk about technique, because it's unique. But when I saw her the first time, I thought you know she could end up with I thought with the best volley in the world I mean in women's tennis. And I said that because she said I was crazy to imagine that. But she has absolutely got the best finishing volleys in the world. There's no doubt about it.

Speaker 1

What did you see that made you think that?

Speaker 2

Well, just this unique talent I mean she could redirect balls on both. So I mean I saw her play at Hotman Cup, which I started with Charlie Banker and Pat Cash, and she you know Dinara Safina was number three in the world and became number one in the world a few weeks later at the Australian Open she led a 7-5-1 on Dinara Safina, you know Marat's sister, who went to number one, and Marat and Dinara Safina, marat and Dinara Safina Marat Safin and Dinara Safina the only brothers, sisters in the history of tennis to both be ranked number one in the world. And I could just see the talents she had. But she actually qualified and got the fourth round of the Australian Open that year and I didn't see her again for another nearly two years and I ran into her and I just said, oh, how come you know you rank, you know 300 and you made the round 16, this straight up.

Speaker 2

And what happened? She goes. Oh, I didn't know how to enter tournaments and no one helped me and I didn't play any tournaments for over a year. I didn't know how to enter and it was a massive problem that Chinese players had, because at WTA everything was in English, nothing was in other languages and players like Su Wei, who were just from a modest family with no support, and from Taiwan, not from China, she had no way of navigating her way onto the tour. So she was a player with talent that was never going to make a dime. Basically I mean, she was a player with talent that was never going to make a dime. Basically I mean she was, you know, she was, she was struggling, and so just I recognized the talent, I thought, um, we'll give it a shot.

Speaker 1

So so she, she didn't even like she had the talent, she wasn't hurt and she just didn't know how to enter a wta tournament how to play where, how to enter tournaments where to go.

Speaker 2

How to do anything? She really for about a year. She just so. She completely wasted her round of 16 singles at the Australian Open.

Speaker 1

It got wasted completely.

Speaker 1

That is crazy, I know. So one of the things people love about her is her funny personality and off-court or post-match interviews and things like that. And last year she seems like very carefree at times and last year she wins Roland Garros, wins Wimbledon with a different partner partner and I'm sitting there in like August, september, october, thinking like, okay, at some point she's gonna choose a partner and like make the WTA finals. Is that something that even crossed her mind? It seemed like she only had to play maybe one more tournament with either Barbara or Gina. Is that something she even thinks about her?

Speaker 2

well the thing, yeah, it was. It was tricky because she won. Oh, look it was. It was tricky because, yeah, she, barbara. Barbara had decided, you know, that it was going to be her last year and she had a baby, I'm going to have another one.

Strategic Planning for Doubles Tennis

Speaker 2

And then barbara wanted to play wimbledon in the us because with see, with the protected ranking, you're only allowed to play two Grand Slams. So Barbara was saying to me Paul, we need to play Wimbledon in the US Open because I'm going to retire in the US Open, so I don't want Sue White to play the French because we can only play two. And I said but, barbara, by the time the US Open comes around, you guys, you'll be in the main draw. You won't be outside the ranking cutoff. You're only going to win if you match. No, no, we can't take the risk. So Barbara decided that she shouldn't take the risk of not having a ranking to be in the main draw, if you can believe it. And then Sue had the issue then with Roland Garros that she lives in Paris with her partner is French and they live in Paris. And I said, sue, so you've got to play your home grand slam, you can't not be at home, and inverted commas because she's not French, but she lives in Paris, sure. So that's where why, at the last minute, she didn't have a partner.

Speaker 2

Because Barbara decided not to play the French, because she wanted to keep her protected ranking for Wimbledon, the U S open, and of course, as it turned out, sueway wins a French and then she and Barbara play Wimbledon. It's a winner. So obviously there was no ranking issue for the US Open, but Barbara had already decided it was her last year, she was retiring the US Open, so that was it. And then she, you know, it kind of all got unglued. And then Australia Sueway didn't really have a partner, and then Elyse had split up with Storm Hunter, elyse Merton, so they ended up playing Australia and winning it, of course, but yeah, so it's just been, you know, a big change. But yeah, there's always, at the end of the day, you can make it work, as I said, if you've got a decent partner.

Speaker 1

Mm-hmm, yeah, so one of the questions on Twitter was about pre-match routines. Talk a little bit about how you prepare Sue Wei for a match. Are there any unique kind of things she does pre-match?

Speaker 2

Talk a little bit about that. Well, obviously I was with singles for a long while. I mean, I've, you know, been been helping her on and off for um 12 years now. So singles was important, but it's now it's doubles. Um, she's in the twilight of her career and and again, the scouting of the opponents is super important. So, and and the team aspect, because her partner's always got a coach as well. So you've got, you know, you've got the risk of too many chiefs in the kitchen, too many chefs in the kitchen, you know so I'm very big on on the team.

Speaker 2

The team makes a collective decision about what the setup is and the and the girl's opinion is very important. The other coach is very important, um, so still, partner fred, who's got a lot of knowledge, it's important. So I tend to do the scouting and then I'll bring that to the table and I'll always meet with the coach before the tournament of Sue's partner and say, look, one of us has to be the leader here, because the worst thing we're going to have is different opinions going to the team both before the match and during the match. So we need to have a central point of communication. That's absolutely vital because if they get two messages that are potentially different, that's a disaster. So we run through the dynamics of what being a successful team is and having buy-in from everybody on the team. So I'll do homework and scouting on the opponents. Perhaps two-way partners coach, coach will do the same thing. We will meet. We always meet one-on-one on the morning of a doubles match the other coach and myself In Elise's case it's Chris who's a great guy and we meet and I'll give my input on what I think we need to watch for in terms of the threat and what our tactics need to be. He'll give his input. We agree about that.

Speaker 2

Then we go to both Sui and Elise together before they warm up for the match, before their practice session, and say this is the strategy we believe is right. What do you guys think? What's your input as well, so that they may adjust something, because they know the girls may be better than we do. So we have a a joint, you know, team decision about the way we're going to set up and they practice that. You know it might be eye formations we have to try or returning a certain way against eye formation, or where they're going to serve, where they're going to stand on first and second serve. We we do those particular setup routines for that match, just for that match. Make sure we cover that in the warm-up and then they're ready to go.

Speaker 2

And then during the match I mean during the match it's changed dramatically, will, because you know, just over a year ago I mean before Sueway came back you couldn't coach like you do now. I mean you know people were doing some signals and things, but you couldn't go. Now you can have an open dialogue. I mean it's unbelievable the input that you can have In the final of Roland Gross, we were playing against Taylor Townsend and Leila Fernandez. I mean the amount of input you can give. I mean this is a match they were losing. It's well down down in the second.

Speaker 2

So being able, as a coach, to influence that is an enormous change from before. I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm just saying it's an enormous change that every doubles team is able to access now. And it's like you've got three people on the team, you've got the two players and a coach. So you know, if you can get three on two, that's great, because some teams don't take it quite as seriously perhaps, especially singles players playing doubles. So you've got to take every advantage you get and it's an enormous change. You know, one journalist said to me what's it like being a coach in doubles? I said, well, I felt like we were cheating. That's what it felt like, yeah.

Speaker 1

Wow, but how do you go about scouting an opponent? Do you use a lot of video and analytics, or do you like to go watch the matches live? I know a lot of the teams you've probably seen before so there's that as well.

Speaker 2

Analytics are limited because you know everyone can hit the ball. Well, but can you do it on break point? Where are they serving on a big point? What are they going to do on a big point, the big points. Even what Roger Federer said at the was it the Dartmouth University?

Speaker 1

Yeah, one of the graduation speech.

Speaker 2

He said I only won 54% of the points in my career. What use are analytics on that? I mean, what you've got to know is where was like Novak says he knows where Roger's serving on a big point? Let's say he tends to go to my forehand on big points, et cetera, et cetera. You've got to know what's going on in the big points.

Speaker 2

So I definitely scout using video, but if it's at all pot, I always watch a minimum one set of their opponent's previous match. I mean I'll just be up in the crowd back there, no one will even know I'm there, I'm just assiduously taking notes of the opponents. Just up In Indian Wells it was tough because the courts were full for doubles. I mean, my goodness, I had trouble finding a seat to scout the opponents, right. But I'm always there to match before I watch a set. I don't watch too much. A set will give me all the information that I need to know what's going on and what to look for and what's happening on the pressure points, and that's enough. And you can over-strategise and get over-technical. I'm just looking for the one thing that's going to hurt us, because I pretty much know how they play. Looking for the one thing that's going to. That's going to hurt us, because I pretty much know how they play, um, if their players that you know you had.

Speaker 2

The hardest match to coach in will is the first round match, because you can't scout the match before. After that it's easy, very easy. The first round is always tough, so you've got to go to the videos or, if necessary, to youtube, because everybody's on youtube and and you just do the fast-forwards. I mean in YouTube. I'm often there just having a look at the opponents and what they're doing. You know, are they on the right sides? I had that with Sam Soneva when she was playing with. She was playing. I found her really dangerous when she was playing on the forehand side in doubles and then we were going into a match at the Australian Open and then she'd been playing backhand with. Excuse me, I can't remember who she was playing with. Let me see if I can find it.

Speaker 1

What's that? I'm going to see if I can find it for you.

Speaker 2

Anyway, she played Adelaide and played Adside and I thought that's good because it's taken away something I was worried about. So I did the set-up. We did the set-up with the girls, with Sue Way and Elise, and I said, you know, it's just assuming Samsona was playing Adside right, because she played there in the warm-up tournament there, because I'm a bit more worried about her on juice side, right, for certain reasons. You know we'd played her before and had to navigate against that. So we go to the court in the match Guess what? She's back on the juice side. So the set-up we did and you know we're getting beaten up. You know the first set. So I had to quickly get in a coaching mode and change the setup because she was on a side opposite to what we set up for. So you've got to take that into consideration.

Speaker 2

Actually, one of your Twitter followers asked about Suway playing with Elise, the fact that you know we thought Elise should be playing for her because she won those two US Opens with Savalenka on the forehand. So on the juice side. So we put, you know, sue Wake and play both sides. We had Sue out and out and they weren't winning matches, and you know. So I finally, I was just talking to Elise before Wimbledon this is back in 2021 when I said to Elise I said you prefer forehand, you know you prefer juice, right, because you know, with Sabalecki you won the two such. Yeah, I know we won the two slams there, but actually I prefer playing on the outside.

Speaker 2

I said what? What I said, okay, let's change. I said here's the deal, this is the deal. First set at Wimbledon, in the first round, you play out. Sue will go back to juice, where she's really comfortable. Let's see what happens. If you lose the first set, we're switching back because that's the way you've been playing. You know, going into Wimbledon, we'll switch back, but if you win the first set, we're staying that way. They won the whole tournament Because you can do that in doubles. Remember, in club tennis too, you can switch after a set.

Speaker 2

You can switch sides, if you want.

Speaker 2

And obviously you want the strongest server serving first. And he said there are basic rules for doubles for club players. If we go, you know, have the strongest server serving first, you know if it's a tournament you want to win, you know, and pick the right side and also never put a left-handed server in the sun, never, ever, ever ever. And people go. Well, how do you control that? And it's amazing how few people know how you can control it so that the best server serves at the right end, serving first in the set. I mean, people, most people can't figure that out. You know, if you've got a good server and she wants to serve, let's say, not with the sun, how do you, how do you orchestrate that so she serves first, not necessarily in the first game, but serves first in the team at the right end. Which means when, let's say, she's serving for the set or he's serving for the set, you're at the right end. And people, most people, can't figure that out. And um, and so you what's the answer here?

Speaker 1

do you defer the if you win the toss?

Managing Team Strategies and Mental Game

Speaker 2

yes, yes, you defer. That's the only way you can do it. But most people don't know you can defer. Oh right, yeah, they don't know. They don't know you can defer. See, losing the toss is an advantage in this sense because whichever way they choose, you get to, you get to do what you want. But winning the toss is a problem. If you serve, you can get put down the wrong end. You receive, you get put down the wrong end. You pick, pick the end. They can pick the wrong thing for you, etc. Etc. So deferring is always the way. If you've got and you know, in someone like Sue Way's case, you know it's where she's generally obviously with someone who's got a bigger serve. Unless we want to go that way, they often defer.

Speaker 1

So do you think?

Speaker 2

I'm not giving any way any secret here, because deferring it doesn't help their opponents to know that that doesn't help them, so that's why I can say this openly I'm not giving away inside information, but for any club team.

Speaker 1

If you've got a big server and a weaker server, defer yeah, so do you think it is, I guess, better to make sure your stronger server serves first, even if it means you start out returning Well?

Speaker 2

hello, well hello, in a 6-4 set. Who serves three times? Who serves twice? Yes, right, in a six three or six four set, which is common. You want. You want the better service serving three times, not twice. So it's absolutely an advantage.

Speaker 1

It's that's a 50 advantage what if the two servers like? The gap in the two servers isn't that much. Would you rather serve first as a team, regardless of the server? Are there? Scenarios I'm just trying to think. If there's like scenarios where you choose to serve, if you win the toss.

Speaker 2

Yeah, scoreboard pressure is always good. Scoreboard pressure is good, you know, in men's doubles, believe it or not, I like to be down the right end in the tiebreak If it's windy. I'd rather be with the wind in the tiebreak because you've got six points with the wind before you change sides. I'd rather be up 4-2 than down 4-2 or 5-1 because of the scoreboard pressure. So I would pick a side in men's doubles based on the end if it's windy. I mean, these are the subtle look. I can't go through every permutation.

Speaker 1

Yeah, there's a lot of.

Speaker 2

But Will these things matter? These things really matter, and so if they're serving relatively the same, that's true, but generally, who can serve better? Looking at the sun, who serves better against the wind or with the wind? They're the things you want to have in your setup, be ready for, be ready for. So you want to always make sure you never make a fatal error of having a left hand to serve yeah, there's a lot I mean if the left hand has got the good, you definitely got to defer yeah, there's just so much to consider.

Speaker 1

Um, okay, so I know you gotta run no, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 2

I mean, you've got another 10 or 15 minutes, no problem, but you know, yeah, yeah uh, so one question I I have to ask is about the strings.

Speaker 1

Um, I've heard this story before. Sue is hitting her string break. She doesn't even know what happened. Tell us, what does she do now for strings? How often is she restringing her racket? Um, and and share that story as well, if you can.

Speaker 2

Well, yeah, she was playing Pavlyuchenko in Eastbourne and Sue missed the ball by a metre and a half. She never misses by that much, I mean it's on grass, but she normally misses by centimetres. I mean that's a miss for Sue.

Speaker 1

A metre.

Speaker 2

Something's wrong. Next rally misses by a metre and a half. Again, what's going on? Something's wrong. Third point I arrived, same thing. There's something wrong here. I looked at her racket. She was playing with broken strings. I didn't think of it, you know, and she didn't know herself. She's playing with broken strings and didn't know it. And the thing was she hadn't broken a string. I'd been working with her for three years. She'd never broken a string Three years. She's only broken two strings in the 12 years I've worked with her. So what year was this? Oh, I can't remember. I can't remember. It's back in probably 2015, 16, something like that. Okay, and she hasn't broken a string. She just never breaks strings. So she strings the rackets, you know, maybe every month She'll change strings, but it's not because of her broken string.

Speaker 1

Yeah, she just gets loose.

Speaker 2

Yeah, but yeah, she doesn't worry too much about that. And also, uh, the speed of the court doesn't make no difference. I mean, at the time, you know, in melbourne I had a synthetic grass court. You know, we're at our home and she was sometimes come and practice there and she's playing singles at this drone open. And she said I'll kind of come and warm up at your house. I said no, of course not, it's synthetic grass, it's not the same surface as Australian Open, which is hardcore, right? She said I don't notice the difference, it's all the same to me. I don't notice any difference in the course ever, so I'm just happy to warm up there. She doesn't. Between clay grass, hard court made no difference to her. The first ball comes out of the middle of the racket. Whatever court she's playing on, it doesn't matter, she can play indoors on wood right, yeah.

Speaker 2

You know, like at the Armoury in New York, I was on a train in New York City. I said to my wife I said look that guy standing over there. You know he won Wimbledon. That guy, he's just standing there with a. You know he had this coat and like a hood. And I said that guy won Wimbledon.

Speaker 1

I said hey.

Speaker 2

Dick, hey Dick, hey Dick. He didn't want to recognize me on the underground. It was Dick Sabat, right, you know. And I said hey, paul, you know. He said where are you going? I said we're going to the.

Dominating Big Points in Tennis

Speaker 2

Armoury in New York. There was an art exhibition and he goes. I won the US National Indoors at the Armoury in New York, actually on the wood, it was so fast. But Sue Weiss centres the ball. It doesn't matter what court it is, her timing is pure, it's just pure. So there's no one times the ball better than Siu-Hui. I mean, it's just pure.

Speaker 1

Yeah, so I wanted to ask you a question about more kind of the mental side of the game for a second. I saw earlier your tweet about the US Open in golf yesterday about Rory saying he conceivably hit both putts exactly where he wanted. Well, he didn't say that.

Speaker 2

He didn't say that, but he potentially did. Yeah, it's a possibility, we don't know.

Speaker 1

Only he knows. Um, and this is something I feel like announcers and tennis do all the time, where, because it's a close match, they'll just attribute the outcome to somebody got nervous or it was the pressure. Um, how do you think about nerves and pressure? And how do you train someone to perform better under pressure?

Speaker 2

well getting used to. It is number one. I mean, my late doubles partner, peter McNamara, was a top-ten player and he, you know Pat Cash's coach, ian Barclay Cashy won Wimbledon, you know, and people still remember him terrific player and his coach was Ian Barclay and he played against Pat Cash in a sorry. He played against Peter McNamara in a league's final, you know, and Maka served a game of double faults and Ian Barclay said, well, gee, that guy will never make it. And of course Maka ended up top ten and terrific player and because Maka early on had trouble with pressure, but he was in that situation so many times, he got used to it. I could say the same about Edberg and Lendl. I mean, they were great players but they kind of were a little bit vulnerable under pressure earlier in their careers until Lendl broke through when Johnny Mack led him off the hook in the final of Roland Garros, which was a tragedy in my opinion, because John should have won the French. But you know you get used to being in that situation enough. You and you know you get used to being in that situation enough. You develop techniques to deal with it. And so, you know, all of those players become very, very, very good under pressure, and so familiarity is one thing.

Speaker 2

The other thing is that the top players win because they dominate the big points. I mean that's why I say how important the big points are, that you know you're playing Nadal, you know if he goes to his forehand he'll get a forehand or a big point. That's the end of the point. I mean he'll just dominate with it. Matches are generally won by the better players because they can dominate with their weapons on the big points. So the fight in a match is always who's got the ability to use their weapons to dominate the big points? And the better players understand that. So the mental game is about have I got the wherewithal, the presence to make sure I get to use my weapon on a big point and dominate the point, and then I take my chances? You're not going to win every big point, but the top players do dominate on the big points.

Speaker 2

I mean, look at djokovic in tyra brax. He just doesn't cop up errors. It's just rare, you know, he's just so good under pressure. So they have techniques to to deal with that. Um, don't ask me to explain what sue way's mental outlook would be. She's a free spirit, so you're never really sure. Um she's just an amazing free spirit and uh special person and um I she wouldn't have any particular plan. I don't think yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it seems like everybody's different.

Speaker 2

People have to kind of find what works for them but the thing is, yeah, and also you don't, I mean choking is involved. I mean I had this. Martina never read a letter. I mean I wanted to. You know I got a phone call from martina's agent. You know martina had, of all the slams, she hadn't won the mix at wimbledon, you know. And I got a phone call from my manager, peter johnson, from img, and he said martina is interested in playing mix with you, but she just doesn't play with a guy who chokes. So can you promise you're not going to choke? I said Peter. I said how can I promise that it's involuntary? I said normally I don't, but I'm not going to promise it. I said what I can promise is I think we've got a really good shot at winning it. Do you want to see how that goes? And you know, know. So she said yeah, give it a shot. So we ended up getting through. You know I was lucky.

Speaker 2

My mum and dad were at Wimbledon that year because they were not there the years I'd won the doubles with Peter McNamara. So we ended up getting through and winning. We had the quarter semi-final back to back on the last day, if you can believe it, after she'd played the singles and doubles finals the day before. So we ended up winning. We played three super-tough three-set matches on the last day and ended up winning it, which was great. And then the next year I said I haven't heard from Martina yet about defending the mix and I called Peter Johnson, the manager, and he goes well, let me check with Martina. He comes back and he says look, martina wants to say that you didn't choke, but there were too many three-set matches, so she's going to play with Hans Gunther, yeah.

Speaker 1

Unfortunately.

Speaker 2

Hans choked that year they didn't win it and she asked me the next year.

Speaker 1

Wow, she made a mistake there.

Elevating Doubles

Speaker 2

Yeah, but she apologized. She said look, paul, yeah, I'm sorry, so that's good. Yeah, I rate Martina highly. Yeah, she calls me partner. She's a great lady, a great force for good in the world. She's got her opinions and stands by them. She's done many great things on on women's rights and um animal rights and you know she has a crack politically at the moment, as you've noticed. So, uh, she's. She's a special person, martina, and she's had her health difficulties, which seems like she's getting through.

Speaker 1

She's just a an amazing person, martina, never a lover yeah, absolutely okay, I know you got to run, so, um, just a couple more quick rapid fire questions and then we'll hop off here. Uh, will you coach at the olympics?

Speaker 2

somebody wanted to know that yeah, sui's playing at the olympics, uh, with a young, young taiwanese player, chinese taipei player, and we'll see how it goes. I'll, you know, I'll be doing the set-up. Never played with her before and we'll see. I'm looking forward to that challenge. You know we had a practice session with her at Paris to see how she plays and does, and so you know, I'm looking forward to helping set that up. And you know, the lady I think has got a future and she was super, super keen. All ears wants to learn and we'll see how it goes, yeah uh.

Speaker 1

So last question for you, and then I'll let you go how can we make doubles more popular?

Speaker 2

yeah, look, um, I know, at one point I was CEO and Tournament Director of the Australian Open for 12 years or worse. Yeah, before Craig Tolley, who's been there longer than I, was there and I did the sign-in after the first round singles. You know, because I spoke to the player meeting the mandatory player meeting of the Australian Open. I said look, all you guys are great players. You know 128 of you here in the main draw of the singles. But you know what? Half of you are going to lose first round. People don't realise there's 64 out of 128 really great players lose in the first round. Half the players lose in the first round of a tournament.

Speaker 2

I said you've come all this way to Australia, for goodness sake, don't get on the plane and go home. Some here, it's beautiful, you're in a beautiful city, go to the beach, go down the coast, the peninsula's great, stay and play doubles. Stay and play doubles. And so I didn't do the sign-up until after the first round of singles. We had a record participation of singles players in the doubles because it was made up of the guys nearly all the guys that lost first round singles. That's how you get a better doubles draw and if you've got a.

Speaker 2

There's so many stars lose the first round in any tournament, right, because half the players lose. So you want to. I just think you know you make doubles relevant by by giving it more step star power and that's by opening it up to more singles guys, not by using the singles ranking, but respecting the fact that if the singles guys win a round of singles, they're not interested in the doubles. So make sure that you've concluded the first round of singles before you do the doubles draw and open it up for the singles rankings. It's starting to look at that on the men's side. They haven't done it on the women's side yet. So I'm a big fan of those changes that delay the doubles draw and allows more singles guys to compete, because you know if you make the effort to go to a city, don't go there and play one match.

Speaker 2

I want you know Will I want to have the minimum two-match rule. If you go to a tournament you've got to play a minimum of two matches. So if you lose first-round singles, you have to play the doubles.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I like that.

Speaker 2

You have to play the doubles yeah.

Speaker 1

I like that.

Speaker 2

What's wrong with minimum two matches in a city? Now, if you win your first-round singles, you're off the hook. You lose first round, you're playing doubles. Yeah, I like that, uh-uh you're playing doubles.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I like that. Let's get a mixed doubles draw at more tournaments too. Maybe they can play that.

Speaker 2

Well, it's tough to play three events, you know, and even Sue Way is just out of playing mixed because she was playing singles and doubles at the slams it's tough to play all three events. But I think you know mixed is I mean I started the Hopman Cup with Charlie Fank and Pat Cash, so I love mixed doubles and what it brings and it's just a special and unique sport that men and women can play in the same field together. I mean the Hopman Cup, you know, which you know has not been played this year, but it was a big part of my history and the whole thing was dedicated to Mr Hopman. I talked about Hopman's Academy in Florida, a great Australian coach. You know mixed doubles wasn't in the Olympics for a long time, even after doubles and singles and doubles were there, but there was no mixed.

Speaker 2

And what happened was because the IOC said to the ITF they said how could you have men and women competing together? The ITF they said how could you have men and women competing together? It's not possible. I mean, how could they actually compete together on the same field of play? And they just didn't believe that it was competitive.

The Art of Doubles Tennis

Speaker 2

So they took a video, they took a point of a final at the Hotman Cup, which was the most unbelievable. Bonferrer and Kurtzer, you know, were playing against Gimmelstob and Chan and Rubin. This unbelievable point, it was just. You've never seen an incredible point like that. It was the same as when Federer and Bencic played against Vereb and Kerber. On that one point that decided to help them come. You've got this incredible situation where all four players are involved, everyone's playing on the edge, it's full on, and that was they. Showed them the video and the IOC goes oh my goodness, yeah, they really can, yeah. So that was the key to mixed doubles going into the Olympics was the fact that so many people were not aware that it actually works on a tennis court, unlike many other sports where the physicality difference makes it ridiculous. So mixed is special, yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it definitely is Awesome, Paul. Thank you so much for joining me. This was a ton of fun. Hopefully we can do a round two at some point, because I have a lot more questions and I'm sure the listeners do too.

Speaker 2

Well, it's been a pleasure. Well, congratulations for taking doubles seriously, which a lot of people do not, including some tournament directors, and it's a fundamental part of the game. It's what most club people play most of the time. As you get older, my age doubles is a lot easier and a lot of fun and so social. So, thank you for showcasing doubles and I've been lucky enough to be associated with the number one. You know the player has been number one in doubles for a long, long time at various times in her career and it is unique and it's completely different from singles, and women's doubles are completely different from men's doubles. I'll give you one last thing. I was helping Sue Wayne punctuate and they lost in the Australian Open. They lost in the semifinals early on in their career before they won the French and Wimbledon, and I was having a bit of a heart-to-heart with Pong about her role in the doubles and she wasn't quite buying into it.

Speaker 2

And I said something and she goes Paul, paul, paul, you only played men's doubles, so how would you know anything about women's doubles? You only played men's doubles, so how would you know anything about women's doubles? I go, okay, fine, okay, but we worked it out and they did okay, that's so good, awesome.

Speaker 1

Well, thank you so much, paul. These are some great stories, some good strategy advice.

Speaker 2

Thank you for the good work Will Thank you. Really. Think about the good work for your listeners who love doubles yeah, it's a fundamental part of the sport and doubles, um, yeah, it's a fundamental sport, part of the sport, and it must never disappear from the tour or anywhere else.

Speaker 1

Okay, thank you. Yeah, thank you. Have a good uh grass season, thank you.