Doubles Only Tennis Podcast

James Cerretani Interview: Gratitude, Growth Mindset, & Love for Doubles

• Will Boucek • Episode 186

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:05:28

James Cerretani is a former ATP doubles player with a career-high ranking of #45 in the world. He won four ATP doubles titles, made the Wimbledon quarterfinals twice, and played college tennis at Brown where he is in their Hall of Fame.

James joined the team of Marcelo Arevalo and Mate Pavic earlier this year to help improve their performance. I spoke with Marcelo a few weeks ago in a previous episode and was excited to hear about the two-week run to the Roland Garros title from a different perspective on their team.

James and I discuss.

  • His role on Marcelo & Mate's team and how he spent his time during and between matches.
  • Why gratitude can help you in tennis and life.
  • What "growth mindset" means and why it's important for peak performance.
  • How to "rep your mindset" & why you should, similar to how you rep your serve.

This is a deep dive into the mental side of the game, an area I've not covered on the podcast a ton, so it was great to get James's expertise. At the end, Jamie shares his favorite tournament, books, and how we can make doubles more popular.

-----

**Join the #1 Doubles Strategy Newsletter for Club Tennis Players** 


**Doubles Strategy Courses** These video courses will help you play smarter doubles and make winning easier.


**Doubles Ebooks** These guides offer proven advice to improve your doubles strategy.

-----

**Join the #1 Doubles Strategy Newsletter for Club Tennis Players** 


**Become a Tennis Tribe Member**
Tennis Tribe Members get access to premium video lessons, a monthly member-only webinar, doubles strategy Ebooks & Courses, exclusive discounts on tennis gear, and more.


**Other Free Doubles Content**

Gratitude and Strategy in Tennis

Speaker 1

James Serratani is a former ATP doubles player. He reached a career high of number 45 in the world, he has four career titles, he reached the quarterfinals of Wimbledon twice and he is his cell phone over Zoom. So there's a few audio issues in the middle and then a little bit towards the end. We did our best to edit that, but just keep that in mind. There's nothing wrong with your headphones or anything like that and I wanted to include everything there, regardless of the audio issues, because there's a lot of really good content in this conversation.

Speaker 1

We focus a lot on the mental side of the game as well as improvement and growth mindset. That's a term that James uses kind of throughout our discussion here, and I wanted to ask James about his two weeks during the French Open run of Marcelo Arevalo and Matej Povic. So he joined their team earlier this year and he actually played with Marcelo on tour back in 2018. So we talk a little bit about their relationship and then specifically about James's experience and his kind of role on the team during those couple of weeks. After that, we get into some questions about his tennis story and then club level doubles how you can prepare mentally to play your best, how you can focus on that growth mindset. We talk a lot about gratitude and how that is a really good life skill and how it translates to the tennis court as well. I also asked him about scouting opponents, making in-match adjustments and a lot more. So this is a pretty in-depth conversation in terms of mindset, in terms of improvement. There's not a ton of kind of X's and O's tactics here. James is really more focused on the mental side of the game and it's something I'm diving into more myself as I grow as a doubles player and strategy analyst. So I learned a lot in this conversation and think you will too. So, without further delay, enjoy this discussion with James Serratani.

Speaker 1

Hey everybody, welcome to the show. Today we have Jamie Serratani on. Jamie, welcome.

Speaker 2

Thanks for having me, man.

Speaker 1

Yeah, excited to talk to you. So, like I was just telling you, we chatted with Marcelo a couple of weeks ago. You're a part of his team this year, coming off of his second Roland Garros title, and I want to get to all of that. But the first thing I wanted to actually ask you about is in our text messages, when I'm texting you back and forth, you're always saying about how grateful you are. You always say end a text with like always grateful or thank you so much. Why do you do that and have you always had that kind of gratitude as far as your attitude goes?

Speaker 2

Well, first of all, I was going to start by saying how grateful I am to be on your show, so I think that's an appropriate first question. Perfect.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean, look, I really believe that you know having a you know an appreciation for the little things in life just good health, you know clean water, nutrition, you know clean air, basic, basic, super simple things, having a good night's rest and having, hopefully, a supportive family and a friend group around you and really appreciating and having gratitude for those things that seem very simple and basic, and they are to a certain degree In my experience. When I think we express and feel and even just think about that gratitude every day and have that appreciation of little things, then what happens is that in my experience, we end up creating more things to be grateful for, and so it's a very powerful ideology. And when I intentionally do that on a daily basis, the things that happen day to day and ultimately at the end of the day, I mean we're looking for results. Right, the results are profound. So that's really it in a nutshell.

Speaker 2

And also to answer have I always been that way? I would say absolutely not. I think most human beings are not naturally that way. It's not the way that we're kind of programmed to be in an extremely competitive world and a very selfish world, not just tennis, but the world in general. I think other industries are extremely competitive world and a very selfish world, not just tennis, but the world in general. I think other industries are extremely competitive and most are a zero-sum game not always, but I believe that that's traditional thinking and that I I had a really good conversation with someone on jp smith's team as well who I'm also managing, um and um.

Speaker 2

We talked about that exact thing and and how we believe both of us he's going through a similar uh mindset shift.

Speaker 2

Um, because that's what we do at inspired, we focus on mindset.

Speaker 2

That's our number one priority that there's a shift in mindset uh, all across the globe, globally, from this self-thinking, self-based thinking to, um, you know, helping others and you know, having a, a gratitude mindset for little things and and by doing that, I think that we're all hopefully going to be able to create a better life for ourselves and in the, in the lives that we, we interact with every day. So, um, and who ends up benefiting the most? I think ourselves, which is kind of cool in the end. You know, we all benefit from kind of thinking and acting that way and having actions that kind of align with that way of thinking. So, and it's little stuff, man, it could be holding a door, it could be grabbing an extra water for someone on the team or someone that's you know like, you're, you know kind of you're going to see someone soon and you just grab some little form and they appreciate that, and then it kind of goes back and forth and it's a, it's a, it's a positive snowball effect.

Speaker 1

So yeah, yeah, yeah, I love it. Yeah, I love texting with you because it reminds me to do that myself. Every time you send a text like that and I've actually, we'll get to tennis in a second for the listeners. But I think this is a really important topic and it's obviously related to tennis as well. But I recently downloaded this app on my phone that sends you like random reminders throughout the day and you can I think it's called like the random reminder app or something and you can plug in what you want it to remind you of.

Speaker 1

So one of the things that I have plugged into my phone is share with somebody something you're grateful for right now, and it's just randomly throughout the day, it'll send me that. So then I have to like look around, find something I'm grateful for and and it's just randomly throughout the day, it'll send me that. So then I have to like, look around, find something I'm grateful for and then go and share it with somebody. I love that practice and, to bring it back to tennis, one of the tips that I've given people in the past I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. A lot of people ask me how do I perform better under pressure right? How do I stop double faulting when I'm nervous, or how do I play well in tiebreakers? And one of the tips I've given people is to be grateful that you're out there, because it's very difficult, I think, to be both grateful and nervous, or scared at the same time.

Speaker 2

Look, I think I need to start hanging out with you more, because it sounds like you have a lot of good solutions that, yeah, they work. Science, man, and I believe that to be true I do a lot of reading. I definitely have not arrived. That's something that's a big part of my framework of my day. I'm always seeking and trying to learn and acquire new knowledge and learn from the people around me that are more experienced, more intelligent, have more wisdom or maybe that's from a book, right?

Speaker 2

I think that's definitely a great precursor to anything that's going to be positive and productive, and I think, yeah, gratitude is a solution that leads to maybe better solutions for a tennis match. A nervous moment within a tennis match, like you mentioned, um, a nervous moment within a tennis match, like you mentioned, um, and it's in from what I have read from scientists that are are much more well-versed in this topic um, that they do this every day. Is that they um, that we cannot feel stressed or anxiety, uh, when we're thinking about gratitude and thankfulness. So I, uh I think that's a profound message that we can apply to a tennis match, absolutely.

Player and Coach Dynamics in Tennis

Speaker 1

So when I chatted with Marcelo a few weeks ago this was, I think it was, before we started recording I was asking him about your kind of role on the team and he said that this isn't an exact quote, but this is kind of summarizing it. He said something like Jamie is one of the smartest tacticians or one of the smartest strategy minds that I've ever played with. Why did he say that?

Speaker 2

Wow, well, first of all, I appreciate those, those kind words. Um, it's true, we actually had a great partnership for an extended period of time, which is rare on the tour. To go for longer than a couple weeks or a couple months right um years is is obviously a very exceptional thing. So we played for almost a year, but we also played off and on for several years while he was still playing singles. We built a relationship during his singles days and then that eventually transitioned into about a six, almost nine-month partnership in 2018, 2019, where we had some great performances During that time.

Speaker 2

You get to know each other, you know, you share your experiences. You share, you know your, your, your thoughts about the game and your approach. Everyone has a different approach, philosophically, about how to approach, how to have a, how to run a practice. You know what to work on in practice. You know how to approach game planning for opponents.

Speaker 2

Um, and that's something that I think younger athletes or, let's say, less experienced athletes I think I don't think age really has anything to do with it, but less, less experienced athletes do not apply those uh concepts. They're just kind of out there playing and just kind of figuring out and competing. Maybe they're really, really talented, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they'll be successful because they don't have a successful game plan. That's something that I think can add a lot of value to any athlete that's just kind of going through the motions. I think quite a few athletes do that uh, and they not necessarily young or old. Again, like, there's a lot of very successful uh, world-class, pop-100, top 50, you know, even even higher, I would say athletes that are doing extremely well financially and having a lot of success, but they don't even necessarily know how they're winning matches other than nuking a huge serve, nuking a huge forehand right? That's common right, we know, we all know about that. But then, but then, what, right? What's the plan, you know? Are we just trying to rip and go huge, big, big, big? And that is a strategy. But there's a lot, there's a lot more to it with uh, x's and o's, and in both singles and doubles. By the way, you know, I've worked with singles athletes, um, and applying actually the same approach. The approach is exactly the same. The only difference is that there's two uh, you know athletes competing versus four in doubles, right. So actually it's, in my view, it's different, but it takes a little bit more time to game plan for two on two than it does one on one. Right, there are different dynamics, but there's four moving parts, so you have to take those things into consideration. So that's a big part of it.

Speaker 2

But no, I appreciate what you said and you know, cello and I definitely it was interesting because when we were partners, it's it's tough to be um, I don't think a coach is the right word but it's tough to to to demand that your partner does a certain game plan when, when they feel like they're also very intelligent, they're also very experienced. They also have a game plan. When, when they feel like they're also very intelligent, they're also very experienced, they also have a game plan. They also have their opinions, you know. So that's a tricky thing to communicate in a way that they'll that your partner will buy in and he did to a certain degree.

Speaker 2

But it also that type of relationship can also cause some, let's say, disagreement, depending on the matchup right and depending on what that is, especially younger and if we don't have a coach leading us. We've had some support, but the interesting thing that I've learned is that he didn't always agree and he did. He was very open and it's actually incredible how open he is as a human being and a learner. He loves learning. But I've noticed that he's matured so much in the last what has it been almost five years now and evolved as a human being so much in the last five years in terms of his openness to, uh, receiving knowledge, um, and it's, it's impressive.

Speaker 2

It really is because, like, look, everyone's so successful on the tour. Uh, they're the best in their town, they're the best in their state, their country, um, they're the best of the best and and so they all believe that they, they know a lot about the game, so it's difficult to break down those walls and those barriers, and so he definitely has a growth mindset, which is actually what we teach at Inspired. It's the foundation of everything we do is focusing on and conveying the teachings of a growth mindset and what that is. And I think Cello is absolutely I mean, he's a poster child for that exact concept and it's an honor to work with him every day.

Mindset and Team Unity in Tennis

Speaker 2

It's a pleasure, and I can't think of anybody in my recent memory I mean every one of the teams, great but he really is extremely open and just wants to just learn every day and it's it's pretty rare, it's pretty cool.

Speaker 1

Talk a little bit about the two weeks during the recent French Open title From your perspective. We heard from Cello a couple weeks ago. He talked about how kind of stressful it can be from a player's perspective having to always keep your body ready, having to always keep your mind ready, always stay focused, for two consecutive weeks, day after day, and he even said that he was a little bit sick on the Monday after they won or I guess, Sunday after they won, because his body just like needed a break and was like tired of it. But what about from a coaching perspective? For a lot of people listening, We've had a lot of players on the podcast before and we've had some coaches, but not so many coaches who have recently been part of a team that won a Grand Slam. So talk about what those two weeks were like for you.

Speaker 2

Yeah, loaded question. And again, thanks for asking that. You know, I agree with Cello in many respects. I mean just in terms of the level of exhaustion. After you don't think about it because you're just so dialed during the actual process of creating everything that we as a team created and there's a lot that goes into that Everyone has their role. The clarity of each member of the team's role is, in my view, extremely well manicured, and everyone had a clear understanding of what it is that needed to be done each day, which made it actually quite easy to just do it. So there was no confusion, which is, I think, extremely powerful and that created a great sense of unity, which was pretty cool.

Speaker 2

But afterwards, I mean, you know, there's adrenaline going and there's, you know, there's the thrill of victory and there's the emotion that's also exhausting. And there's the thrill of victory and there's the emotion that's also exhausting, there's the lack of sleep that somehow inspires you to give more, which is also an interesting concept, you know. I mean we finished our match against the Sisyphos brothers, who played extremely high level doubles I think, perhaps the best doubles they've ever played. So big credit to them. Obviously, we're amazing athletes and really pretty nice guys too. And so we finished that match and we knew we had to play arguably the best team in the world in the next round. Amazing opponents, really good guys, but they were dominant for much of the clay court season going into that match and you know it was. It was like we instantly knew that this was crunch time, that we had to really kind of buckle down individually, but absolutely collectively as a team to, you know, prepare as best as we possibly could, and I know that I had that feeling.

Speaker 2

Immediately it was like okay, great job, great work, but this is go time right now, going into the semifinal. So there was definitely not much sleep that night from my perspective, if any at all.

Speaker 1

So what were you doing? Were you just watching film on the opponents all night or going through?

Mental Reps and Performance Growth

Speaker 2

I guess start with your role on the team if you can share any insights, uh, on that yeah, I mean like so, at inspired, we we have about we have about five athletes now signed with, uh, the team, so we have a kind of a unique approach and, um, you know, there's a lot of things that we do, um, and and the number one thing it it starts before we even step on a tennis court is we focus on a mindset, you know, acquiring the correct mindset to optimize performance, right, and, um, I tell that to all the guys, I'm helping one, uh, female athlete as well, um, kind of it's not official, but we've been kind of helping a few other athletes and juniors as well, um, and that's just the foundation, right.

Speaker 2

So we set a foundation by, you know, kind of getting into the psychology of sport really and acquiring you know where are you mindset wise, we have a discussion about you know how you feel about your game, how you feel about your approach. You know, I definitely watch matches on, you know, seeing how they perform, seeing how is their body language, how do they respond in this scenario, that scenario, you know, in various important moments throughout a match, and um, yeah, we work on that stuff, we discuss these things.

Speaker 2

We, we're open about these topics that are oftentimes kind of you know, discarded or swept under the rug or ignored and not, you know tough topics that that people don't want to talk about because they are. It's a challenge, right? So so I often ask the question how many times do you do you rep your serve at practice each day? How many times do you rep your, your return, your second serve return? You know follies, whatever, and you know it might be 10, 20, 50 reps a day. A hundred, wow, that's a lot. And then we say how? How many times do you rep your mindset? Yeah, every day. Do you. Do you think about that? Do you rep that? Do you focus on it? And oftentimes the answer is, uh, you know. Uh, they're not even sure how to respond to that question. Yeah, yeah uh.

Speaker 2

So you know, which leads to a really healthy discussion about, you know, whatever's going on in the athlete's mind and um, it's um, every athlete's different. There's no, there's no set formula. Um, I do have a formula that I use. Um can't tell you all the secrets, but, uh, you know, I will say that it's, it's something that starts with a question and then, and then it it kind of deviates based on what type of response I get from the athlete. You know, based on what type of response I get from the athlete, you know, and then we create a solution that's going to best fit.

Speaker 2

You know Cello, for example. You know things that he's going through and you know some things that were happening in Madrid that were just not good, that were extremely clear to me. I was there, so I watched the match live, but I also watched the match another three, four, eight, 15 times to make sure what I saw was accurate, because, of course, if I'm not giving the guys accurate information, then I'm not adding value. So I definitely take a lot of time to make sure it's accurate. And then in doing that that we build trust, all right, and so once that translates into a match win, then the trust grows and that's the formula. So, um, you know it's, it's look, it's a lot of fun. It's not easy, but it's. It's fun doing it and that's a big, another big component to what we do. Inspired. Inspired. I mean, I want the guys smiling, I want them having fun. This is a game that we should love, like you mentioned, have gratitude just for being able to step on the tennis court. That's a big thing for me personally, just to be able to be around the game, which I love, and being able to inspire these guys to be their best selves. It's emotional stuff, man, and they definitely feel that and if they don't, then they're not the right fit for the Inspire team, and I tell these guys that every day, and I share that message. I really appreciate how dialed in you are on the things that we've talked about. Right, because it's one thing to say things. It's another thing to actually take the action and do it, and I've noticed that you know some guys more than others, but everyone is doing what they say they're going to do and that follow through is extremely powerful and the guys that do it more, the girls athletes that do it more, they perform better. So you know, it's a simple, really simple thing and that cause and effect. But it's an investment, you know, like they're investing in me, I'm investing in them.

Speaker 2

So in a lot of these relationships have been like pretty organic and that they were preexisting. Maybe I played doubles with them, so they knew me a bit, have been like pretty organic and that they were pre-existing. Maybe I played doubles with them, so they knew me a bit. I knew kind of my attitude, my work ethic, you know. So I'm grateful to have had that pre-existing relationship, um, which made, which made creating this, uh, let's say a bit easier, um.

Speaker 2

But then there's also some, some newer relationships too, that are kind of maybe they're saying hey, I like what, what's happening here, and I'm interested in seeing how things are done, and and those are, those are, like I'd say, more difficult relationships to to cultivate and they take time, they take effort, um, they take reps, right reps and mistakes, because it's not perfect. I don't believe in perfection. Look, they want to slam. Look, I never thought it was going to happen as quickly as it did and I'm extremely grateful, but it wasn't perfect, right, there were a lot of mistakes made throughout those two weeks, but I will say that their mindset was what, in my view, empowered them to move forward, regardless of the mistakes, and that was the thing that I was most proud of to see both of these guys, both cello and mate, and everyone on the team, because the coaches make mistakes we're all human, sure but how do we respond to those is, I think, what.

Speaker 2

What really is is an indicator of your character and really just commitment to the process, because it's of your character, and really just commitment to the process, because it's for me, it's a year. You know everyone that's signed with our team is. It's a year and um, could it happen in a month? Maybe, but there's no magic bill. It's just you just show up every day and then, if, if, things click and you really assume that leadership role and and cello's really evolved into a very impressive leader. And that's really my ultimate goal for anyone that works with Inspired is to, when they leave this experience, to feel like they are becoming a really good leader of themselves, of their team, if they have a team, their doubles partner, if they have a doubles partner, and, of course, their family and their friends and so on.

Speaker 1

So it's been. How can, sorry, go ahead? No, that's all. Um, so you mentioned how often do you rep your mindset. That's it, which is a great question. How can so let's say, a lot of people listening club level doubles. They play in their local USTA league maybe two, three times a week, so it's not as high level as you're working with right now, but they feel like they don't always perform at their best level, right, and maybe they come out flat during a match, or maybe they struggle during a tiebreaker, or maybe they lose a lot after winning the first set. How can they improve their mindset? How can they rep their mindset? Where would they get started?

Speaker 1

If you have any like resources or books or anything that you'd recommend how can somebody start to improve their mindset?

Speaker 2

I mean first thing they can do is just give me a call. No, I'm just kidding. No, I mean, look, there's a lot of things we can do. I mean the basic thing that everyone has heard before. This is nothing new, so it's nothing profound or original. But focus on your breathing.

Speaker 2

We've all heard that, and we try it once or twice and you know it works the first time. So we keep doing it in the moment it doesn't work, but we say, oh well, that didn't work that time, so now we're going to give up on it, right, and that's, that's a. That's an easy excuse. You know it didn't work, so it must not, it must not really be true, right? So those really be true, right? So those are perfectionists, right, perfectionists are very common and perfectionism is a very, I think, dangerous and slippery slope to imperfectionism. And I know a lot of people like that, a lot of human beings, a lot of athletes. Right, they're striving for perfection when we should actually, in fact, be striving for progress. Perfection when we should actually, in fact, be striving for progress. Yeah, right, there's a big difference. I don't believe in perfection.

Speaker 2

I believe that when we had acquired what mindset which is really just improving daily, then, you know, and we've heard this before you know, like one percent better each day leads to massive growth over the course of a long period of time, which would be a year. That's why I don't do. I don't do anything on a week to week basis. I was working with an athlete a while back and they wanted to do this week to week thing and I said I appreciate you and it's been a really wonderful experience. However, that's not how I believe we can really truly create something optimal and really create the performance level and the results that ultimately we want, because we want to take care of business and get great results.

Speaker 2

But a lot of people want that. They want that like I need it now. I need it right now. I need that pill, that magic pill that doesn't exist, right? So you know, in answering your original question, that same concept applies to well, why don't we just focus on our breathing, but do it every time and see how that works over the course of a year, or even a month, or even a week? You know, if you make they make one mistake and then you know it's the end of the world like it's, like woe is me and then I they.

Speaker 2

You know they can't get past that one mistake. But even if they made nine previous falls that were really really good points and then they the tenth ball is a disaster. You just made 90 percent. Yeah, it's pretty good or even 51. I'll take 51 any day because a good chance you're gonna win that day right right.

Speaker 2

So it's like I don't know if you actually, uh, if you, if you watch. I don't really watch too much netflix and series, but I do occasionally and teddy lasso is something very inspiring to me and I don't know if you walked Ted Lasso, but I did yeah.

Speaker 2

That's good. Think like a goldfish, right, it works. Yeah, yeah. So sometimes less is more, and uh, and every one thing that I get is I learned the most, absolutely the most, when I actually have a conversation with an athlete. Yeah, I can read 8 000 books, but I'll learn way more from one conversation from, or just listening to, the athlete. Listening to what the athlete has to say will teach me way more. Yeah, right, when I really truly listen to what they're saying and then we can have an understanding of what the athlete needs, what the correct solution is for that individual athlete.

Champion Mindset in Tennis

Speaker 1

Sure, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, everything has to be kind of customized, and that's kind of something I've talked about previously on the podcast. When people do ask me a question like you know, how do I play better when I get nervous, or whatever it is, it's like well it. It's different for everybody like some people love the breathing thing. Some people love, uh to like bounce up on their toes. Some people love to like think about the sunshine.

Speaker 1

Some people love to talk with their doubles partner and that releases that tension it's just different for everybody and I feel like the the ability to just test and experiment and figure out what works best for you is super important. Um, so I wanted to ask uh, jump into your story, so tell us how did you get started in tennis. You had a pretty successful career, reaching number 45 in the world for career titles Wimbledon, quarterfinal and then now, of course, coaching as well. So tell us from the beginning, like where were you born, how did you get started in tennis, and kind of go through your story for us how'd you get started in tennis and kind of go through uh, your story for us?

Speaker 2

um, thanks for asking. So, to be clear, I don't really consider myself a coach per se, but more of like a mindset, mindset manager and a career tennis career advisor. It's kind of more my role, you know, of course there's coaching that goes in there, but there's kind of a more I I would say different title there, but thank you for asking. I mean, I was, you know, I was very fortunate to have two parents that were crazy supportive and loving and I have two older sisters that also played the game of tennis and a lot of other sports. We played a lot of sports growing up and my dad was very instrumental in coaching. He was definitely a coach and very dialed and very intense, like many of the tennis parents of the universe, you know, of the world. So, yeah, it was just basic kind of upbringing like that, very simple but hardworking. And you know, I was just just. I looked up to my older sisters, I looked up to them and they inspired me to want to beat them. Really I was very competitive, my dad's very competitive and, um, so, yeah, that was just kind of hard to start junior tournaments, local tournaments, usda tournaments, um, and then, of course, to the national level, did okay, was never the top player, but played college tennis uh at Brown and had a an amazing experience there and four years that I will just cherish forever um, with a great group of guys, great coaching, obviously a work-class academic uh institution as well. So it was um a wonderful experience that you know.

Speaker 2

When I finished there I was actually considering it a few times early on to go pro uh. Even in high school I was approached because I was a pretty good singles player. Actually, growing up I was very good uh. You know, locally I wasn't number one in the country, but I was. I was around like 30 but played a lot of other sports. So I wasn't really. I wasn't never a full-time uh tennis player. I was like a baseball I like I played basketball um. So I kind of did it all and never really specialized till college um. So, yeah, I still had a lot left in the system and kind of gave it a try, started playing futures and did okay in singles, got to about 6, 6, 20 I think was my best but excelled more in doubles and made an early transition in my you know mid-20s into doubles and I was a serve volley single player, so that brand was not uh, you know I was kind of dying with the court surface blowing down and I mean I didn't have. I didn't have a massive cannon serve, so definitely depended a lot on my feel, my volley, my net play and transition game, which translated really well into the doubles, of course, and so that's kind of how it all started, and so I made that transition and moved up relatively quickly in doubles. So it was something that you know I was definitely all in dialed.

Speaker 2

I think I played something like 44 weeks my first year on tour, which is just incredible to think about. I can't believe I did that, but clearly there's a passion there and I do love the game. I have utmost respect for the game and, look, it's a game that you can just learn so much from every day and it's constantly evolving. It's constantly new players, talent, new technology, new challenges, rule changes sometimes, but everyone's so good, there's so much depth. Um, you know even the players that are, you know, like popana, 44, you know, number one in the world this year, like winning his first slam, like that. Stuff's inspiring and you know everyone in the game is trying to find a new edge. And how do you get better? How do you, you know, refine this detail? Do some yoga, nutrition, um, longevity, sleep, wellness, all that stuff. You know strength training, you know hydration, and so I mean, look, I think the next step is you're gonna play till 50, right?

Speaker 2

I believe that humanity is evolving, not just in sport, but, you know, people, I think, will start living till one one, 120, 150, even. I heard that the longest potential lifespan right now is 180 years. Um, from a scientist. That's like a super well-known, uh, you know, nutritionist and for health, wellness and longevity. So, you know, we're in a generation where we have so much knowledge. Life is good, um, we're extremely fortunate to have resources to not have to worry about. You know, hopefully, war, you know borderline, for lack of a better word ridiculous things like that, but that's still. We're playing society, but we're in a very, um, I think, optimistic. I like to think that we're in an optimistic time in life where, you know, hopefully, people are evolving. I know there's definitely some conflicts around the world, but um will enable us to evolve further and continue seeking knowledge and and um, and it's fun to be a part of that you know, know. So that's kind of my journey. That's why I played as long as I did, you know, I mean I just loved the game and I was learning so much.

Speaker 2

And doubles is a game also. That's it's. You know, it's a thinking man's game. You can't just like bomb a serve and the point's over. That's a misconception. Like there's a lot of ways to win doubles points with the lob, with block returning. Obviously you can be aggressive returner as well. You can be a big server, you can be a spot server and then work together with your partner to create opportunities. It's fun to learn these skill sets. There's a ton of really cool dynamics that are at play um that are vastly different than than the game singles right, and so, um, I think it's um, yeah, that's what.

Speaker 2

That's what made it so much fun for me to keep playing as long as possible, and and uh I love being around guys now watching them. You know pave their journeys as well, and to be a small part of of that journey is all right, we're back.

Speaker 1

Uh, had a little internet issue there, um. So I wanted to jump to strategy a bit, uh, and actually ask specifically about, um, that semi-ifinal match. So they are playing Grenoers and Zabaios the best team in the world at the time, maybe still the best team in the world, who knows. They had just won Rome. They beat Mate and Cello in the finals in Rome. I think it was 2-2. They win the first set against Cello and Mate, um, mate and cello in the finals in Rome. I think it was two and two. They win the first set against cello and mate, I think six, three. So how do they turn that?

Speaker 2

match around. That is the question, isn't it?

Speaker 1

So I will tell you one thing that cello said last week. Um, so I will tell you one thing that Cello said last week is that they started going a little bigger because they thought, if we keep, we're playing well, but these guys are playing the best in the world, so if we keep playing this way, we're going to lose a set, six, two or six, three or six, four again, because they're playing better than us. So we have to take a risk and go bigger. And he said they took that risk, they went bigger and the balls landed in. To kind of put it simply. I know it's a little more complicated than that, but that was his answer. So feel free to answer any way you like, if you agree, disagree or have your own answer.

Speaker 2

Well, look, at the end of the day, what's very important to know is that the players are the ones that win these matches. All right, teams win matches together and they don't do it alone. It's definitely a team, absolutely but they're the ones that strike the ball. So they know, you know what they did, that's for sure. I know. I know that, being a player, we remember every point. You know every little kind of nuance, right, um, but I will, so you know. In responding to cello's comment, I mean look, you got to go big to have a chance against players that are extremely efficient, they're extremely effective and they have a very you know, talking about Marcel and Zabaios now, I mean, they have a very clear understanding of the game.

Speaker 2

And they really have great clarity on what their purpose is, what their intention is for every point. You know for every scenario wherever they're standing on the tennis court, they know exactly where to be and what shot to use to optimally maximize their chances of winning that point. And so, knowing that it's extremely important that we are able to match that, we have to match that sense of clarity. But having that awareness we use that word a lot Awareness is key. So I would say it's a combination of what Cello said. I absolutely agree with that.

Speaker 2

Using power and being aggressive and trusting the prep preparation. Being aggressive and going for more, like you said, at the same time utilizing the awareness of what is the purpose for the shot. Being extremely mindful with bad aggressiveness is, in my view, the reason in how they were able to kind of turn things around and tactically making the adjustments that needed to be made, but doing it aggressively, and that was huge. That was huge and that takes a lot of trust. Trust in, in in the game plan, trust in the. You know the, the, the team and the strategy that we had for this, this matchup, especially, like you said, having known that they were uh, you know it was a match that we just played them 25 days before that, right, it was a matchup that we we knew that we needed to be dialed in order to just give ourselves a optimize our chances of being successful, you know, giving ourselves our best chance to win. They have that awareness. They definitely knew what the stakes were in the semi of Islam.

Speaker 2

Those guys are, like you said, arguably the best, still the best. I think three, four, five teams are really really, really good. The rest of the teams in the world are right there. So there's, the margins are tiny, um, and so they they. They have great awareness of what, what those margins are and how to maximize the skill sets within those margins to to really uh, enable themselves to win those tiny little battles, the little detailed battles. That's really what made the difference for them in that matchup. I saw those boys here Huge respect Everything they've done in the game. They're getting better every day, being number one in the world. All the accomplishments and, uh, we definitely have the appreciation for their level, because it really inspired us to raise our level and, um, that's kind of what it's all about. So it was an honor, part of that huge honor to be a part of that.

Speaker 1

How does somebody listening raise their awareness or train their awareness? Why is it so important to be aware on the court?

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's the great, that's the best question you've asked so far, man. You know it's a really really, really important and um, that's the that's the game changer question. You know it's um. I think it starts with really having an awareness of um, what your, what your goals are. First of all, right, what's your goal? Why are you doing this? You know you trying to be let's talk about a club player, like these listeners that you have now. Are you trying to, you know, be the best player here? Are you trying to be the number one doubles team on the team?

Speaker 1

Say I want to win my league. Yeah, you want to win the league, right?

Speaker 3

So, how do you do that? I mean you want to be the best individual player we can be.

Speaker 2

Know you want to win the league? Well, look who's the best you know. Get to know what is the, what is that level? All right, like, watch it, study it, get to know it, get to know that that player and that that team and um you know, understand what it's going to take to beat someone like that. So that's step one, that's awareness. Step two is put the work in. Do the reps. Are you willing to actually invest that time and energy to get the necessary reps in, to be extremely confident that you're ready to to have success against the best player in the league? Right, because if you are not, then you will not be successful.

In-Match Adjustments and Journaling in Tennis

Speaker 2

Yeah, if you are willing to do those reps, then, look, we're going to optimize our chances to be successful. It it's not a guarantee, there's no guarantees, but we will give ourselves our best chance. So that's kind of what we that's how we operate at Inspire. We optimize our chances, our opportunity to be successful. That's all we can ask for. That's a very powerful way of thinking, right, because there's no don't, we don't, we're not going to beat ourselves up. We're not going to feel like, oh, I didn't give my best, I gave my absolute best. That's a good feeling, but it's, it's, it's.

Speaker 2

It can be scary at the same time, because a lot of people don't, are not willing to put that all that effort in and not we have a guarantee, are not willing to put that all that effort in and not we have a guarantee. Right, right, but the guarantee is you know, at the end of the day, you gave everything you had, so we know what our best self is. That's the goal. The goal is to be our best self. If that's 80 in the world, if it's 100 in the world, if it's number one, if it's, if it's best in the league, locally or, you know, silver medal or honorable mention, but it's nice to know what our, what our true level is. And, by the way, I don't think that that's something that's ever finite. I think we can always be playing the infinite game of improvement sure which is pretty cool.

Speaker 1

How do we uh, I guess a two-part question here. I I know a couple more here, and then I'll let you go. So how do we scout opponents? And then also, how do you think about making in-match adjustments? You? Can answer those together or separately.

Speaker 2

You might have to upgrade for the paid service if you want me to give the full answer to that.

Speaker 1

Okay, give us the preview, so people reach out.

Speaker 2

I'm kidding, it's a great question, man. That's really what we talk about every day, right Literally. So I mean, you're getting into the nuts and the bolts of it now. You know we're talking tennis now and you know you have to. You know, look, talking about a local match. You know in a, you know a league match you know how many?

Speaker 4

how many times have we played these opponents? That's a question you can ask. Do we remember what happened in the last?

Speaker 4

matchup that's the first thing we can think about if we're one of your listeners what was good? What did we do really well? What did we do really poorly? If we did something really well, keep doing it. If it was having success, if there's something that we were not doing well, let's work on that. Let's improve it to a certain degree. Summarizing comprehensively make that adjustment, or maybe don't do that as much will get a couple points on right. Focus on those things like focus on your strength. It's important, right when we focus on it, like good.

Speaker 4

You know, we create more good, pretty basic, right, but extremely powerful. A lot of people. What they do is when they lose a match. We're very emotional beings as humans and we automatically think so much emotionally about the terrible things that happen, the bad shots, the mistakes, the unfair. When we focus on the bad, you know what happens we create more bad. It's pretty simple thinking so. When we can create that clarity so we're getting into mindset again, when we have a great sense of clarity about those two concepts that I just discussed, then okay, now what are we going to choose? We're going to choose what's going to be good or bad, and that's the decision that I can't make for you, but I can help lead you in the right direction and make it an easier decision.

Speaker 4

So focusing on the good is very powerful, creating more good. And then in match adjustments, look if I'm there, or if your coach is there, or your advisor is there or whoever is working with you at the match. That's a huge value add because if they're dialed in, you're truly paying very close attention to what's happening and there's trust and we develop a dialogue on how to communicate efficiently, because you've got to be super efficient to get on the financing point. Then we can make some adjustments.

Speaker 1

Yeah, sorry, it sounds like like your fingers over the mic. That's better sorry no I could hear most of it. So if you have a coach, let's assume you don't have a coach or anybody there to help you with the in-match adjustments how do you do this kind of as a player on the court?

Enhancing Tennis Tournaments and Reading

Speaker 2

Journaling is is so powerful and everyone, everyone that I work with got to have a journal. I mean this is huge. You could be your own coach. I mean, at the end of the day, if you really are truly dialed on acquiring knowledge, you know, repeating it over and over and learning and making it like these small little adjustments here and there, then you'll have the power to, you know, coach and advise yourself, lead yourself. Like I said, we're trying to create good leaders here, right, and so having a journal is a really simple and efficient and effective way to do that and you'll see a lot of great athletes. They have their journal right with them on the bench and they'll open it up on the changeovers.

Speaker 2

It's pretty cool, yeah, yeah, and I'm not just talking like 12, 14, 16 year old juniors, we're talking pro athletes, you know, college, college, high level, college level and professional athletes, right, I mean I remember watching jim courier used to do it back in the day. He was a total beast, super smart guy and loved to read and he had his journal with him and you know, I remember that's just kind of my childhood. It was inspiring to see that. But you see it now all the time. All the time the guys are out there and they're looking through it.

Speaker 1

Not everyone, but you know, yeah, a lot of players I've had yeah, a lot of players I've had on the podcast have told me they have a journal where they keep notes like that, and it's super helpful definitely definitely um, okay, so a couple rapid fire questions, then we'll hop off here. What is your favorite tournament?

Speaker 2

Wow, so many good ones, ben. I kind of just love them all, you know. Yeah, they're all so unique. They're all Everyone is trying so hard to give their best effort to provide a quality event, and I can't help but just have so much respect for everyone that's trying to do their best effort to provide a quality event, and I can't help but just have so much respect for everyone that's trying to do their best to create a quality event for athletes, especially traveling around the world. I mean again, gratitude, so blessed to do what we do. So I think the short answer was I just really appreciate all the people that are working tirelessly to create a great event for everyone that's blessed enough to play in them. Not one stands out. They're all so good.

Speaker 2

I think they're all unique and good in different ways. I think it's unfair to compare. If I had to say one right now, just because it went really well recently, I'm very grateful for everyone that created such an amazing experience in Roland Garros. They went above and beyond at the end of the tournament to have a post-title cocktail party for everyone with champagne and stuff. That was pretty special. I'm not really a drinker, but I had some champagne that night. I definitely appreciate the effort that they made, and that goes, I think, for every tournament director around the world. So sure.

Speaker 1

Do you have a favorite tennis book or book that you recommend to tennis players?

Speaker 2

I think anyone that really wants to know how to be a great athlete and thinker on a tennis court has to read the inner game of tennis. Yeah, I agree it's so basic, it's so old school, but it's so real and it applies today and it will always apply. If you want to be an optimal athlete, yeah, it's some deep thinking in there and you don't have to really go that deep. But there's some surfer stuff that is just so powerful, so applicable yeah, yeah, it's definitely that it's gonna be for sure.

Speaker 1

It's like a timeless book. It'll be always applicable. Yeah, uh, do you have a favorite non-tennis book or non-tennis uh book that you recommend to people?

Speaker 2

um, I have a collection of books that I travel with, actually almost like a mini library. Okay. So I'm constantly reading different topics to try, to you know, add value, improve, to say one book.

Speaker 1

It can be more than one or a recent one that you've enjoyed.

Promoting Tennis Through Human Stories

Speaker 2

I mean there's so many. I'm really into leadership right now and reading about different leadership skills. Mindful listening is something that I'm working on at the moment. That's it's really added a lot of value in my life and I think it's adding value for the people around me to really kind of listen and learn and help improve, whether it's myself or others or people on our team and teams. You know there are a lot of teams that I'm working with and it's important to really understand what people are thinking and really appreciate their perspective before we make a decision. So I find that to be really empowering and really anything that has to do with, like you know, mindful listening, leadership, awareness, self-awareness and, of course, gratitude. I like the. I love those topics.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So last question for you how can we make doubles more popular?

Speaker 2

I think there's a long list of things that we could do to add a lot of value. Um, I've thought about this for many years, even in recent, you know weeks and months. You know I take a lot of time to sit down and create right. It's all about creating value. I had a great conversation earlier with mark knolls, who's on the board of ATP and he's a great tennis player top 100 singles, number one in the world doubles and is now working to try to create some solutions to add value. And, look, I think the simplest thing to do is to create a team of people that care, that truly want to invest and give their time, energy and effort into creating that value. And what's an actual example of that would be, I mean, something so simple like, for example, on tennis TV. I think that we can have all the doubles matches with commentary. I think that's a very basic and simple thing that we could do to create a narrative. Have some great storytelling about all the incredible things that are happening on the tour. Talk about the teamwork and the team dynamics, the leadership skills that are being developed amongst these human beings that are just they're really impressive. They're really impressive. Um, and just tell the stories of people like cello who came from el salvador and then went, you know, used the opportunity of tennis to go to college in the united states, uh, which has an incredible college tennis system, uh, one, obviously an amazing country with credible educators, um to um, you know, just bring out the best in his talents and then from he went to tulsa university and then from there to go on the pro tour and take it to another level, um, and then move to the united states, still maintain his, his crazy loyalty to, uh, a very inspiring loyalty to el salvador, it's like. It's such a cool story, you know, yeah, and that's a story that I think could be told, you know, simultaneously, while while watching him play incredible doubles, you know, and incredible tennis and very tactical and very mindful tennis. So I think commentary during those matches would be a very basic and simple thing to do to, you know, create those storylines, those human interest stories, which is a is a great advertisement, right, Great advertisement for the game, and I, I again, I just feel like I tell, I tell him all the time. It was just like, you know, he's like a salt of the earth guy who just wants to help and wants to know, like, what's happening, like he. He talks to fans all the time and you go around tournaments and everyone comes up to him that he knows from year to year to year, they're so pumped to see him and he's just so willing to give his time and energy and has so much empathy. It's inspiring man. I feel like I've become a better person just observing that. Outside the tennis I think there's a lot of stories like that and so many other guys too, not just jello, so many guys that are that way and went to college and have that story and experience and and um, singles guys too. You know so many great tennis players like yanni confident went to usc and just had a great match against yannick yannick center, you know, and center court. Like it's pretty cool.

Speaker 2

It's not just singles or doubles. I think that they're two credible games within the overall framework of the game of tennis. Some people play singles. I think most people play doubles locally and at the club level, so they can relate to that.

Speaker 2

I think creating great relationships between fans and players. It's all about being able to relate to each other. Right, the word relationship is about relating, and so fans can really relate to doubles players, which is very powerful. So when we can create that narrative, create opportunities to have more fan player interaction as well, I think that's another great way to promote the game. And you know, I think basic stuff like putting the names on the back of shirts is so simple. Obviously, promoting it on websites and promoting it on ATP websites and getting some matches on TV is obviously a basic thing too. It's, it's um, but you got to tell the story of who these people are and create the image and name, image and likeness of these people, these athletes to um, to create the following that that would accompany that. So, yeah, those are just a couple ideas.

Speaker 2

Another cool idea that I have, now that you mentioned you talk about a lot.

Speaker 2

I think that at the end of a doubles match, if the winning team, um, stayed on and played like two points against two lucky fans, like two young kids or something, I think that would be a pretty cool thing. You know, like, yeah, basic, maybe the you know, the ticket holders of the at that day go into a lottery and they draw it out of a hat and then suddenly two young kids who are just like can't believe that they get to play against two pros or like fans for life. So you get two times what I don't know 16, but you get 32 fans who tell all their friends at school on Monday that they just met these 10 players. So then it becomes exponential. And then there's like 64,000 fans now that love doubles and want to go to the next tournament to maybe be able to play. You know, get the chance to play with some stars. I think that's a cool idea. That would cost nothing, and actually you could probably even charge a small fee for that, so you can generate some revenue as well in that way.

Speaker 1

So simple ideas like tons of yeah, I agree, yeah tons of little things like that'll have like snowball and have a big impact in the long run. For sure, I think so I think so awesome, jamie. Uh well, thank you a ton for joining me um, I appreciate it and to listening. I'll include links to everything we talked about in the show notes. Any last requests of the audience or final comments Before we hop off here?

Speaker 2

Jamie, oh, you're asking me. Oh, no, it's a pleasure. Thank you for having me and I think that, yeah, all these things are really great questions. I think that, yeah, all these things are really great questions. And, again, grateful to be on it and just wishing all your loyal listeners to stay inspired and have fun out there.

Speaker 1

Awesome Thanks again.