When our levels of Netflix binges get so intense, we end up spending more time with our favorite characters or celebrities than anyone else in our lives. The connections we have to these stars is called parasocial relationships. In this episode, we delve into parasocial relationships, why we need them and what they do for us. We also discuss how in the digital age, we have a window into the personal lives of our favorite celebrities, blurring the lines between our parasocial relationships and "real" relationships. Jacqueline also discusses the other side of parasocial relationships as a celebrity herself.
Resources:
When our levels of Netflix binges get so intense, we end up spending more time with our favorite characters or celebrities than anyone else in our lives. The connections we have to these stars is called parasocial relationships. In this episode, we delve into parasocial relationships, why we need them and what they do for us. We also discuss how in the digital age, we have a window into the personal lives of our favorite celebrities, blurring the lines between our parasocial relationships and "real" relationships. Jacqueline also discusses the other side of parasocial relationships as a celebrity herself.
Resources:
Hey, little helpers, we've got a fun topic today that was requested by you all. We got this request a few times, so we figured we'd look into it, and that is parasocial relationships. This was actually a term I had not heard of until it was requested, and neither had you, kippy right, no, yeah, so, yeah. So this was us totally going like diving in blind in the, the research literature, and I actually we found a lot more than we thought that we would, um, and there were some some surprising outcomes. So, kibbe, can you define a parasocial relationship? I don't know, can I?
Speaker 2:I mean, this is just something that we're learning on the spot. Okay, so what we've learned is so parasocial relationships are these kind of like one sided relationships where you feel like you have a close relationship with a celebrity or other media figure. So you know your favorite celebrity. You feel like you know their lives, you know who they are, you have like this attachment to them. And it's particularly one-sided where you know a lot about them but they might not know about you.
Speaker 1:Is that what you understand it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I'm struggling a little bit with figuring out the difference between a parasocial relationship and a fan only because you can actually have a parasocial relationship with fictional characters and so I guess, technically, you would know absolutely everything about the fictional character, because they are fictional and everything that is presented is their entire identity and so it's like that. You know how does that work? Um, I do see the difference between just being like, oh, I really like robert de niro's work versus like I have a crush on and follow christian bale and everything about his personal life and I feel like I know him personally, even though he doesn't know me, like I do see the difference there between fan and parasocial relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I almost like reading more articles about it. It seems to be really how people are talking about these celebrities or characters and I think that, instead of being like, oh, I'm a fan of this person's work, oh, I, I love them, it's like yeah, christian Bale yesterday said this and this and this. And I don't agree. Right, it's almost like how people are talking about it, like they talk about these celebrities like they know them personally.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, so it turns out there is some prejudice against this, so there's a tendency for people to think it's weird or unhealthy, and yet it's very, very common. And what's funny is I found research suggesting that people who have parasocial relationships also view them negatively, like they have prejudice against them. Negatively, like they have prejudice against them. Um, and that has a little twist to the story, um, in that we found that we didn't find the literature has found that anxiously attached individuals are more likely to have parasocial relationships, and specifically when there's a measure of empathy called the interpersonal reactivity index and the personal distress subscale of it, which is basically like how distressed you are by an interpersonal interaction or by seeing another person in distress. You know the IRI well, right.
Speaker 2:Mm, hmm. Yeah seeing another person in distress. You know the IRI well, right, yeah, yeah. That that subscale is basically like um, how much personal, how much distress do you feel in relationships? Like, how much do you personally like freak out about relationships?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so people who were so high personal distress correlated with parent social relationship intensity intensity, I believe, um, but this isn't to say that this is an abnormal thing. It's actually incredibly common. It just sort of depends on the intensity of it and the kind of amount, like the amount of time and energy it takes up in your life yeah, there's.
Speaker 2:There's some studies that shows like around 51% of Americans have been in a parasocial relationship, even though only 16% will admit to it. I will. You know, it's funny. It's funny. I'm like 38. So I was. It's. It's funny to watch people's relationships with celebrity from when I was younger, before the internet. I lived at a time before the internet, not crazy and then and then with like you know, yeah, like social media and you know tiktok and instagram, like bringing you so much closer to celebrities. Like back then celebrities were demigods, right, they were like there are these people that you have fantasies about. You know they're, they are larger than life, they're out of your reach, literally. I definitely had parasocial relationships with a lot of embarrassing people and I'll out myself right now. Jonathan Taylor Thomas was one of my favorite ones when my first, my first relationship, parasocial relationship I think Hanson was there at some point.
Speaker 1:Oh, my God, oh, hell, yeah, I can get behind that one.
Speaker 2:This is an exercise in confronting my shame, but JTT and Hanson were up there for me Well, which Hanson brother the hot one Come on.
Speaker 1:The hot one right.
Speaker 2:Don't be ridiculous. Clearly the hot one, right? Don't be ridiculous, clearly, yeah. And I remember like, yeah, I would have like posters you know, that's in the back of the day where, like you had magazines like now I forget what they're called, like teen bead and like teen bop or whatever. I think probably making up. But you know, you have magazines with like the pictures of them and you're like oh, oh, my God, and you put them up on the wall and you're like, you feel like you have a relationship with them. This is so embarrassing. I can't believe. This is what happens when I know very little about a topic.
Speaker 1:It's just it's just manually embarrassing.
Speaker 1:We're just spilling it out. Well, I mean I, but I think that this, I think it's kind of confusing because it's like, well, how do we define a relationship I mean, we don't even necessarily know how to define that when it's consensual, like when there are two people in it, when it's bi-directional, and now we're trying to define a relationship with only one person truly involved. I think the best example of a parasocial relationship I have is with Dax Shepard, who is host of the Armchair Expert podcast, and the reason I guess I would go parasocial over fan is I listen to the podcast, not so much because of its quality but because I like Dax Shepard, like he, I relate to him a lot, he, I relate to him a lot. He makes me feel seen, in certain ways, like I, I recognize a lot of myself in him and, um, that has actually made me feel a bit better about myself in certain ways.
Speaker 1:And jason also listens to armchair expert, like every single episode, and so we will be saying things like oh my god, did you hear what daax said? I bet Dax would love it. You know what I mean. So it is like we're talking about a friend, that's super embarrassing, yeah, super embarrassing.
Speaker 1:But I don't. I mean I follow him on Instagram but I'm not like looking him up other than to see he has an NA beer company and like his ads are funny. You know what I mean. But I'm not like I'm not googling dac shepherd to find out more about his life, I'm just I listen to this podcast every time I work out and so I feel like I'm working out with friends, because monica is also the the co-host and so she's also like a little friend that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but it's just yeah yeah, it's just difficult with all of these, like it's like, what intensity are we looking for? Are we, are we looking for obsession, like preoccupation, or just the feeling that you know this person and you enjoy that?
Speaker 2:right, and I guess it's like yeah, how often do you talk about them, right, like how? As you're mentioning like the obsession part. How often do you say like oh yeah, you know, dax would love this, or how much your awareness that this is like a one-sided relationship, right like? How deluded are you in thinking that this person is like an actual like person who knows you too, right that's?
Speaker 1:an actual attachment figure but that's not, that's not required for a parasocial relationship. That would be like a top, like a unhealthy or delusional right parasocial relationship. That would be like an unhealthy or delusional parasocial relationship. Right, right, right.
Speaker 2:But it is weird that, as you know, I was a kid and before the internet, you know you have these like fantastical, godlike figures that are so out of your reach and now, with social media, you you basically do have a relationship with them, right Like, and you could have the same kind of relationship with a celebrity, versus just like someone you're following, right Like a person who's an influencer where you were watching their life updates, and they're not doing the same. They're not following you, um, but yeah, I mean you, that the celebrity. I was cultivating this like personal contact, right Like, I know you post stuff about your daily life all the time and there are many people who might feel like they know you or do know you and, um, you're, you don't know them to the same level totally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it doesn't. I mean, I guess what feels abstractly weird to me about that is that there are people who are invested in me in some way, and that only feels weird because I it we're just not used to thinking of ourselves in that way, like we're special enough to be invested in by strangers do you?
Speaker 2:what is that? Like, um, to be on the other side of that. Like what does it? What does it feel like to be a some, a figure that people might have, that parasocial relationship, attachment to?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean it's like, it's it really abstract, like the. The part that I see feels very normal, especially because I put out a lot of prompts right, so like I'll ask people things, or like I'll I'll ask for advice, um, or do AMAs, um, or have this podcast right and ask for feedback, and so all of that just feels like people are just answering my questions right, which is a perfectly normal behavior. There are some people that have crushes on me, but that's also been. I mean, I'm just like oh, they think I'm hot or like kind of smart or whatever, and that also feels normal because that is something that happens out in the real world all the time. Like people will think I'm hot or like kind of smart or whatever, and that also feels normal because that is something that happens out in the real world all the time. Like people will think I'm attractive and then they'll form a crush on me based off of not that much information. I mean, the interesting thing is that the people who follow me on Instagram actually do have quite a lot of information about me, more so than people out in the world would. Um, so that feels fairly normal as well, I think.
Speaker 1:Think you know when people have really negative parasocial relationships with me. It felt really weird because they were like any time you have a parasocial relationship, you make assumptions about people based off the information you gather. I mean, that's just how brains work. And they were making really negative assumptions about me and so I kept feeling misunderstood and and then like there, I mean I've talked about this so many times, but that was the flip side, um, and I will say that, some interesting things to know about people who form PSRs parasocial relationships.
Speaker 1:So, interestingly, individuals with secure attachment styles are more likely to have PSRs, the higher they are in distrust, and I already said this. But people with anxious, ambivalent attachment styles are most likely to have PSRs. Individuals with avoidant attachment styles are least likely to have PSRs, and individuals with avoidant attachment styles are least likely to have PSRs. This information is really interesting when we think of empathy and the reason I'm making this connection is like, um, the going through kind of that negative parasocial experience. I'm trying to figure out how empathy and trust kind of play into that. Um, so one of the reasons given for why people like having parasocial relationships is because they are trustworthy, and I think by that it's like if you are not like, you're not going to get dicked over by a celebrity because they're literally not interacting with you, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So in that case it's like a safe relationship you can have, it's steady, it doesn't really change. But at the same time it does strike me that a celebrity could disappoint you by, for instance, espousing evidence that they have a belief different from yours, and that is something that Bachelor contestants go through a lot. And so I guess if you are higher in that distrust then maybe that would play in a little bit Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always wonder, as you were talking, my mind went to therapy and how therapists you know. Anyway, this is making me think about the, the function of one-way relationships, like non reciprocal relationships, where you have like a figure who you can't dehumanize. Right, you dehumanize it by humanizing it, which is strange. Right, like they've, you know, you are on TV and you become like a character, like the smart one you know, and then knowing parts about you without the same way back, sorry, without without you knowing about them.
Speaker 2:you just become this figurehead. You become like this, this safe space where they can have all of their different attachment needs thrown on you. So, whether it's like admiration and crushes and like romantic interest, or if it's hatred, right Like anger right.
Speaker 2:So, like it makes sense, if you're higher in distrust, like you're not going to want to deal with the, the messiness of having the back and forth right you can have like this figurehead where you're like dumping, all you know, like it's a safe space, but then you can, you know, have all of your feelings and all your things be thrown on this person that's a good point and the person can't. That, like celebrity or figurehead, can't actually disprove anything, right? There's no reality about them that you have to confront.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, there's no repercussion. You can kind of bend the reality of that celebrity at your will. To a great extent they're not going to leave you. I mean, sometimes they'll fight back or they'll clap back, but that's about it, so yeah, so if you are anxious in relationships, this is a very easy place to go.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You have the closeness without the risk of rejection.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, because you're always available.
Speaker 1:Totally. I want to get into the empathy research real quick because it was actually kind of confusing. It was like different subscales of the IRI. Confusing. It was like different subscales of the iri. Basically it just means the iri is this measure that tests different facets of empathy or different interpersonal reactivity like how you relate to people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, um. So one thing they did say is that parasocial relationship, commitment and satisfaction. So that means like how committed are you to following this person and how satisfied are you in this relationship? They are both positively correlated with every sub component of this empathy scale. Investment was not significantly correlated with empathy as a whole, but was positively correlated with personal distress. Okay, so this is actually when I start thinking about myself, like I have commitment to armchair expert and to Dax Schaefer, like I'll continue listening to the show. I get a high degree of satisfaction, but I'm not particularly invested.
Speaker 2:Like.
Speaker 1:I, yeah, I'm not again like, I'm not really like looking him up and stuff, I'm not like meeting him in my day, so, um, and I don't think I have a particularly high degree of personal distress, so I don't know. I mean I'm a sample of one, but that kind of suggests that like if you have a lot of personal distress then and then you're like a lot more invested in these parasocial relationships, then that would make sense that people with anxious attachment types are also more intensely invested in parasocial relationships.
Speaker 2:I would think, in general, that parasocial relationships are functioning as a source of getting your attachment needs met that you don't have in your personal life. So the way I'm reading what you're saying is that if you have a lot of personal distress, if you feel distressed by relationships, if you have an anxious attachment style meaning that you want more relationships and you want attachment closeness style meaning that you want more relationships and you want attachment closeness, and often you feel really unsafe without them and you know that often clashes with reality, because people can't be sometimes as available as you want them to be, so that makes you anxious that these celebrities are there to fill that hole for you.
Speaker 2:Right, right, like you can feel attachment, you feel like you have a relationship that doesn't have all these downsides that you have in your normal life, right? So it's. You know, someone with high personal distress who finds relationships distressing, may really love having a parasocial relationship because it's like I could feel that closeness without it freaking me out. I could have this relationship without it as much as I want, without facing rejection.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so they invest more heavily Other people who are just getting a lot of satisfaction out of following these people. They are high in all of these empathy subscales as measured by this one particular measure, to be clear. Yeah, but suggest they're higher in empathy, which makes complete sense because, as in any relationship, you're going to get more satisfaction and commitment out of them if you have empathy. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, thinking about what is the function like, why do we have these parasocial relationships and how does this fit into your style or needs in relationships? There's this paper called Parasocial Interactions and Relationships in Early Adolescence by Tracy Gleason and a couple of other authors. They looked at how adolescents, like early adolescents around like the age of 14, 15, what actually these parasocial relationships do for them, and the paper is pretty cool because what they found is that adolescents will tend to attach to a certain celebrity. It's different for boys and girls Attached to a certain celebrity. It's different for boys and girls. Girls tend to do attach more to actresses and boys tend to attach to Like athletes and their favorite media figures, and it's it's kind of there they were. Just the authors are describing this as a way for Adolescents to have this kind of, to kind of accelerate this developmental process that they go through, which is when they're adolescent.
Speaker 2:When people are adolescents, this is the first time they're really attaching strongly to a friend and not their parent, right? They're starting to break away from their parent. There's they're starting to discover who they are and identify. You know, um, what kind of person they want to be and um, so they start to, you know, hang out with their friends and they start to identify like the cool kids and want to identify the cool kids right, like they're.
Speaker 2:They're forming their identity and this paper was actually talking about how parasocial relationships could actually be a part of that process. Um, so they tend to. You know, adolescents with parasocial relationships will tend to have these relationships with the celebrities they want to be like, they want to embody, and it's like these role models, right, there's like these kind of figures of what their role models and other papers are showing that adults do this too, right, like that people with low self-esteem attached to different kind of celebrities that they admire and they want those kind of qualities. And if they are primed or they're kind of shown or exposed to that celebrity, they actually act more like their ideal selves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what some of the research shows.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it's kind of like these, these parasocial relationships can can be kind of a source of inspiration about like. Okay, I'm attaching them to this celebrity because that's kind of I admire them, I admire what they're like, I want to be like them.
Speaker 1:I will say that is an interesting part of being on the other end of the parasocial relationship, like the celebrity end, and it's not like I have experienced this a lot, but a little bit and enough where I could see how a much larger celebrity would really be stressed out by this. It's not, it's not, it's okay. If you become famous, like through being on TV or something, how much of you has just signed up to be a role model for other people? Like, how much of you has signed away your right to fuck up all the time, right, like, is it part of the job? Is it a necessary part of the job to be, um, a role model so that other people can live up to their own ideal selves? And the reason I say that is like that is kind of a heavy burden.
Speaker 1:And being a role model can look like a lot of different things. It could mean having the same views on, you know, the Ukraine, war or abortion, or it could mean sharing or not sharing sexual like, beliefs or activity. It could mean wearing certain things and you could say like, okay, well, um, people will select for who their role model is, but I think it's it. It's difficult when you are such a pedestal role model? Because then what if you say one thing that all these people disagree with and have you cause ripples in their own self-esteem and their own identity? Right, so I don't. What's interesting is there are a majority of findings suggesting that parasocial relationships are good for people, but it's weird that, like a celebrity has to be good for other people.
Speaker 2:Right right, that they have to somehow sign up to be like a role model in a really particular way and their choices will affect like how these adolescents and teens like follow what you do. Right, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, I remember back when the in the jackass days, when those like shows or, you know, the movies came out, where then you had a bunch of teenage kids, mostly boys, doing really dangerous stuff because that's what the role models were doing. Dangerous stuff because that's what the role models were doing. So it's like how much, when you're a celebrity, how much are you signing up for for these parasocial relationships where it's like people, people are looking to you for guidance on what to be like?
Speaker 1:Exactly, and that you bring up a really good point, because the celebrity becomes a celebrity in response to supply and demand for certain things. So Johnny Knoxville, who's the star of Jackass, he was paid to do a particular show that people liked because it was very entertaining, and then he gets pilloried for not being a good role model. And then he gets pilloried for not being a good role model. It's like which do you want the entertainment or the mentorship? Because one person can't necessarily be expected to do both Right.
Speaker 2:Right. And also, do you think it's different when someone becomes a celebrity for a character versus, like, reality TV?
Speaker 1:Reality.
Speaker 2:TV might be so confusing because it's actually. It's actually showing parts of who you are not all of you, right. You're very kind of like a one or two dimensional person on TV, but like, yeah, you, when you were on the Bachelor, people got to know that you were interested in psychology and wanted to be a therapist and all of that is true, but then then a lot of people had like feelings and opinions about that, right yeah, yeah and then.
Speaker 1:But then meanwhile, I mean, the same people also want drama, and so certain people are taken away from any kind of possible role model status by being, you know, egged on to behave poorly. Some of them naturally behave poorly, so, you know, they put a target on their backs, um, but I, I think like all of that just really brings in the nuance of what it means to be a role model in the entertainment industry. You have actually a lot of different roles to play, entertainment being the one you get paid for.
Speaker 1:And that can mean a lot of different things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how do you feel when people reach out to you like fans or whatever reach out to you and then they seem to know more about you than you thought or would be normal for a stranger like you're saying that that felt okay when it's positive and negative is bad, but like, did it ever feel weird? Did it ever feel weird that, like they know so much about you, you know nothing about them?
Speaker 1:no, I I think that only happened on, like if I was snooping on Reddit or something, or like. I saw this video. I may have even talked about it. I know I talked about it on Instagram. I saw this video of this dude who is, like he clearly does this as his profession, like he reports on Bachelor Nation relationships or something or like news, and so I watched this whole video of him explaining my breakup and like how I have avoided an attachment style, which is I said that on this podcast, right, yeah, yeah, so like, yeah, he said that, um, and just sort of like hypothesizing about me and the breakup and he had both enough information but not enough information. You know what I mean. So I think the weirdest part is just watching people hypothesize and like come to conclusions that are incorrect.
Speaker 2:Like what? Oh my God, I want to see this. What did they? What did that person say?
Speaker 1:Um, I think I mean I okay, I I don't remember exactly, but given that he was talking about avoidant attachment, he was probably saying that like I freaked out or something like I just, you know, freaked out with a commitment. I I honestly don't know, but that would be an example of what I'm talking about. Right, like the conclusion drawn is because they were given some information, and part of that was because I was accusing myself of the things that I actually don't think were true. I do think I had elements of avoidant attachment, but so that would always be weird. It's like just seeing people doing a lot of hypothesizing about me and me knowing what the answers were. What did that feel like? And me knowing what the answers were, mm-hmm, what did that feel like?
Speaker 1:Well, they usually weren't flattering hypotheses, so usually it was really frustrating because I was like, just talk to me, just talk to me, like I can tell you what the answers are, but then being like no, I can't invest in every single person who misunderstands me. And also, how are people supposed to understand me correctly, given limited information? I don't even understand myself fully, you know. So that was just odd, because I kept just really wanting to be understood, wanting like wanting to correct the narrative or set the record straight, and every time I would try to do that, I would kind of get branded as like pathetic or desperate, and they're like you need to stop caring so much and I'm like I'm supposed to be a role model and like I'm new to this and I want to be understood and, like you know, you guys are forming impressions of me that aren't accurate, but then, like maybe some of them are. So it's just like you know, it's just confusing.
Speaker 2:How has that shaped the way you feel about yourself over time? To get all these people's you know, like this third party perspective, that you don't have any. You're almost like not permitted to talk to them about yourself, but they're like seeing things in you and maybe see things some things accurately some things not I don't think I have a complete answer to that.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think at this point it's more the positive effect than negative.
Speaker 1:Just, because, I think when you get battle scars, you know you're strengthened in some way, like I just have more. In a way, I have more tolerance for people talking shit and forming negative opinions about me. Sometimes, though, I almost have like a a little T trauma response to it. I like it really dysregulated and thrown back into that time and just want to like escape from the world. So I don't know, maybe there's like a short-term effect and a long-term effect of like when it happens, but I think that eventually, it had to result in me taking cues from other people a little bit less than deciding on my own identity and having to say I know who I am, because otherwise you're going to get very. You're going to just your identity is going to disintegrate a little bit, because it's like fuck, I don't know. They're picking up on something. Okay, do I believe them, or do I believe these other people?
Speaker 2:That must be hard to be a celebrity if you have a really poor sense of self.
Speaker 1:All these people kind of projecting all their stuff and all their perceptions on you and who you are well and young, or that's what I was gonna say child actors have a really poor sense of self because they didn't get to normally develop, yeah, and they've been told who they are by so many people, for some from such a young age that I mean it's no wonder that some of them don't survive it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is just making me think more and more about. It's funny that you're saying that people who make these like hypothesis analysis on your personality almost like like don't want your feedback right they don't actually want to know the answer.
Speaker 2:They want to be able to have their opinion put it out in the world and they don't want you, they don't want you to talk about it. Right, you get punished if you reach out and correct them. They're not like, oh wow, thank you, this is. I wanted to learn more about you, so now we have a conversation. No, they want to have their one-way opinion about you and it almost like, as you were saying that I had this really sad image of society, as we want more and more this like one-way relationship where you're not engaging with a lot of stuff. Right, like there's you's, you know the there's popular YouTube channels of people's reactions to things, so you're watching someone else react to something. Right, You're not engaging. Right, it's like we're not actually having a relationship with you.
Speaker 2:We're having a relationship with our own perception and we don't want to engage with you, so it's almost kind of like I'm going to be a spectator to the world right, it's really it's so bizarre.
Speaker 1:I mean it's yeah, it's so bizarre because I find those videos really boring and I never really understood the appeal and maybe it is just a younger generation thing. They had to go through COVID during critical social periods. But yeah, I mean watching people, people play video games, watching people react to things. Your social life being primarily either performative and I I mean that by literally like performing on tiktok or instagram or something or as a spectator. I mean maybe I haven't seen research done, but I also didn't really look for this, I don't know what I would exactly Google scholar. But if you have a negative parasocial relationship, then does that trust thing stick where you want to trust that they will always be a disappointing person or an embarrassing person. So there's something reassuring about them proving you're right over and over again something reassuring about them proving you're right over and over again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, there's also the reassurance of that. If I don't actually engage or interact with the world around me and my relationships, then I'm I'm safe behind the glass wall, right like I'm not. None of your bad behavior or good behavior is because of me. I'm not, not like I'm not. Co relationships I see so much as like a co-creation of a dynamic right Like it's. It's two people playing tennis with each other. It's about bouncing back and forth and it's really hard to then pinpoint when you see a behavior or pattern in someone. Is it you, is it them, is it your fault? Quote quote is it me problem or you problem? But you could just absolve yourself of all of that responsibility and be like Jacqueline's, a jerk, you know she's a void and blah, blah, blah, and you don't have any.
Speaker 2:there's, there's no accountability on your end.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that makes sense also with a generation that has fewer social skills. Like, if you primarily engage with each other through Instagram, comment or text, then you have fewer social skills than somebody who primarily engages in person or on a phone call. And so if you don't have very many social skills and we know that teens are spending less time with friends, they're not having sex, they have less independence If you don't have as many skills, then interactions are very threatening.
Speaker 1:And so it makes sense that you would want something as safe as possible where your limited skill set is enough. We should maybe mention some of the other positive things.
Speaker 2:Delving into the bleakness of our society.
Speaker 1:So okay. So one interesting thing. So I saw adoption of healthy attitudes and behaviors modeled or promoted by the media figure and reduction in stigma related to physical and mental health conditions. So that to me seems like a marker of our times, with mental health and disabilities being talked about more than ever. But it surprised me a little bit because I mean I even saw actually positive body image being part of this, where I feel like the people I follow give me negative body image because I'm like I look so much worse than you.
Speaker 1:But I do think you know. I mean, for instance, dax Shepard is an addict and he talks about that a lot and a lot of people who come on his podcast, um, where he, he has a, he has an episode where he like has has his listeners come on. A lot of them express how they've been able to get sober because of him or he's been a big part of their sobriety journey and they just feel a lot less alone. So I mean, for me, when I said I actually feel less alone, is that I always I remember coming on here and talking about like am.
Speaker 1:I a narcissist and really I see the exact same thing in him where he's actually very other focused and I would say that I'm other focused in a lot of ways. But we have these like needs to be validated by other people in certain ways and a bit of a self-focus in certain ways, where he's always like am I a narcissist? I'm always asking myself, am I a narcissist? Or he'll like he'll opt for the most mischievous or naughty interpretation of something some of the time, or the most selfish interpretation, like when people tell a story he's like oh, that person's motivation was probably self-focused, and I also think that too, and other people often they're just a little bit more generous in their interpretations. But dack shepherd is also always thinking about how to make other people happy and he's really vulnerable and honest and he's always complimenting people and trying to make them feel good, and so I just saw some of myself in that and I was like, oh, it's not, like, this is actually kind of normal Probably none of that made sense.
Speaker 1:What do you?
Speaker 2:mean normal, like the amount of self-focus I have, or like wanting to be entertaining or seen in certain ways that so what you're saying is like parasocial relationships can normalize a lot of things that you might be sitting around being like, oh no, is this just me? Am I a weirdo? Is this? But when you the more, the more access we have to the inner lives of these celebrities, it's like, wow, they're just. You know that part of whatever those tabloid magazines like they're just like me, it's a lot of people. They go to the grocery store. It's like, no, that even people that we admire and people that we see as larger than life can also struggle with similar things that I do, which which could serve its own purpose of feeling like validating or comforting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and part of this that is really powerful in a positive direction is um providing connection and a kind of socialization for minoritized groups and, in particularly, lgbt plus people. I mean, if you imagine being in like a small town in the South, then seeing queer people on Instagram or TikTok who are extremely confident, powerful, loved, who express themselves boldly, right, that would be incredibly helpful and affirming. And another thing that can happen is that, you know, seeing celebrities endorse or be friends with minoritized people or express like inclusive ideas also has a positive impact. That has been shown. Another thing that has been shown is that there are studies that basically showed like a tv show with minoritized people in it and they showed it to like white people and um outgroup exclusion I'm not sure if I'm getting these terms exactly right it declined. So basically like white people were relating to the black characters or the you know black and I can't remember whose reality or fiction they were relating more, and those this basically like exclusion diminished somewhat. So there being a diversity of role models is really helpful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it. It makes sense because you're the closer you are to people, the more like I mean this becomes your in-group. Right, like you actually could see their humanity a little bit like you can relate to them and feel like an attachment to them.
Speaker 2:The more you have that with, like, different kinds of people, um, can get a can actually like reduce your stigma, right to reduce your stereotypes of them and what you think about them. Um, so yeah, for for many people who are probably like they don't have exposure to different kinds of ethnic groups, right, if they watch them on TV, that's their exposure to them and a relationship is a relationship, right.
Speaker 2:Whether you have it Well, I mean it's not the same, but like if you relate to them and admire them on TV or you know, as a celebrity reduces also your bias against them.
Speaker 1:It's kind of an important point that I think we've there's been a lot of push for like inclusivity and representation in Hollywood, which I think has mostly been framed as, like, black people deserve to see themselves in the main character role, which is of course true. Black people deserve to see themselves in the main character role, which is of course true. But it also can have an effect on everybody watching, in the sense that the more diversity you have in a tv show, the more diversity of role models you have and connectors you have, and so people who have naturally pretty exclusive you know, rac, sexually, whatever groups might again experience more connection with people different from themselves.
Speaker 2:That's cool. I like that. I like that finding. I mean there is a dark side to all of this. Right, there is that I mean it seems to be pretty positive in many ways to have a parasocial relationship, especially.
Speaker 2:I mean to extract a tip from all this research if you have, if you feel close to a celebrity and have opinions or feelings about them, you can kind of reflect on what they, what functions they serve and think to yourself okay, if I admire this celebrity or if I feel close, if I'm listening to this person's podcast or what you know following them, what does that say about me? What is a, what is, is there a quality of theirs that I'm actually admiring and identifying with? Do they represent an ideal version of myself? Um, that I'd like to become, and often that does become like um, a way to compare yourself to something Like if you're following a lot of like really skinny, beautiful people with impossible bodies, it might actually make you feel worse. But you could turn that around and be like, okay, what are these qualities that I'm looking for and admire and how can I build that in myself, right, yeah, yeah, actually, now I'm thinking about that like I talk about that with my clients from a, from a just a social media standpoint, where people are saying, oh, you know, I was looking at these people who are successful in their career in these ways.
Speaker 2:I feel really bad about myself and I kind of try to turn that around and be like okay. Well then, first of all, you're just projecting your own stuff on these people, right?
Speaker 2:You don't, you're not actually dealing with their whole personhood. But let's use that as a mirror and try to understand. What are these qualities that you are feeling jealous or envious of, or like want to admire or admire or whatever?
Speaker 2:let's, let's see what this says about what you want in your life you might not be exactly like them, or you might really set yourself up for failure if you're trying to shoot for an ideal um that you'll never reach. But maybe let's build those values in your life like if, if you admire success, if you admire healthy bodies, what, what would that look like? Working towards that Right?
Speaker 2:Um so you could kind of think about, like, if you're having these or even the hatred right, if you're angry at Jacqueline Trumbull, for you know, like I don't know wanting to go to psychology, you know like what? What psychology? You know like what, what I don't know what?
Speaker 1:whatever people yell at you, for which is, you know, seems so bizarre, but like, don't anymore, that's nice yeah that's good, that's good.
Speaker 2:But like what does that mean? Like what? Where does that anger? Where is that anger coming from in your life are? You disappointed in role models for not giving you something? Are you disappointed in um, just like something that's missing in your life, or do you? Is this an outlet for anger that is actually coming from somewhere else?
Speaker 1:well, and I would also be wondering about community there, because another big benefit of parasocial relationships is not actually the relationship with the celebrity themselves, but the community you get with other fans. And you can have that by loving a celebrity or hating a celebrity. So we know that. What is it? Dopamine increases when people gossip I mean it's the same thing on like Reddit, right? So if you can all pile on somebody, then you might be feeling better about yourself, but you also may be feeling in community with others.
Speaker 2:That's interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it has interesting implications for older people as well. So I think you sent me an article that described a woman who lost her husband in her 50s or 60s and she's like I'm done with romantic relationships, but I'm going to allow myself to have crushes on celebrities, because that's kind of a safe way to experience romantic connection without actually having to be in one. Um and also, just, you know, people who feel lonely are connected by so to so many people who are also fans. It's a shared interest, right and um, and especially like, if that celebrity dies, then they can grieve together. Mm-hmm, so yeah, I was wondering.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking also about the downsides, the dark sides of this, because it's like if you are satisfying, if you're getting like a little snack from these parasocial relationships, it might take the edge off your hunger that would normally drive you to find that in your current life, right, like if you feel close to a bunch of people because you're, you know, like I'm scrolling through TikTok and feeling like I'm close to a bunch of people, that might be just enough to not to prevent me from being like, really feeling the loneliness and going out there and actually making a relationship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I have that concern with gamer patients who you know are really big into discord and all of their friends are on discord and not actually in the state that they even live in. I mean it's difficult because it's definitely better than nothing, but does it prevent the yeah having the incentive to risk awkwardness, embarrassment, rejection and go seek in-person relationships?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there's so much about identity. I mean, if we're talking about having parasocial relationships to inspire you to become, you know, ideal self, a lot of our identity is built by these interactions, right, like learning about yourself and this back and forth, like how did I react to when this person did this? And if you're just having this one way relationship, you're just learning that your identities are formed by, just like becoming a thing in a vacuum, almost right, it's not like a. I'm not like learning how to be a good friend or good person with you, I'm just like learning how to perform, yeah, in a certain way, right. So the other dark side, too, is there's actually a form of, there's actually a criterion for schizophrenia, like a question that we ask people to assess for schizophrenia, or like psychotic disorders where we actually have to ask people.
Speaker 2:Have you ever felt like you had a close and personal relationship with a celebrity? Right, that's actually like a question to ask to assess for this, and a lot of people say yes to that. Um, yeah, I have, like you know, john the tailor.
Speaker 2:Thomas, I feel like you know, like weird, but no, it's really about like. Do they have a delusional sense of like? I feel like I was actually in a not a parasocial relationship, but I actually had a relationship with this celebrity. It gets really complicated to assess that when we're talking about what we're talking about, whereas, like, celebrities are actually in the palm of our hands. And when does it cross over from I have a, you know, like a delusion that I'm in love or dated this celebrity versus. I kind of did and, yeah, we kind of texted back and forth, we had some DMs on Instagram. Where does that line strong?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I had one of those flirtations with a celebrity on Instagram and I was like I just sort of like, am I? He ghosted me after like a month and a half Like and I was like I just sort of like, am I? He ghosted me after like a month and a half Like. Am I allowed to be mad? Like what was this relationship? Like we exchanged picture selfies nothing, you know nothing, x rated. But like we exchanged a lot of selfies. It was definitely flirtatious and then he disappeared and I was like I don't really know how to categorize that exactly. And now he's just this person I see in so many movies and TV shows and I'm like I knew him.
Speaker 2:I don't know, yeah, I mean, then it's like where does a crossover? What is a defining feature of a parasocial relationship with a relationship? Is it how much you talk to each other, or is it like, how much did you find out about this person in personal interactions versus like a public display? Like, there's a lot of like, you and I are friends, obviously, but there's a lot of stuff I learn about you from what you post on Instagram, right, and like, where's the boundary? Is it because I talked to you or is it because that you share with me some things about yourself that you don't on Instagram to everyone else, right? Like, where does that intimacy, right, begin and end? I don't know, are we really friends or is this a pair of social issues?
Speaker 1:Well, you initially followed me as a fan, even though you did not even remember me being on TV.
Speaker 2:I did yeah.
Speaker 1:I thought I got the follow request from Kibbe after I had applied for Duke and knew what lab I was applying to and I thought she was stalking me as a potential grad student and so I freaked out and probably tried to see you did. Oh yeah, I didn't know that. I freaked out and really she had just sort of blindly followed me, because after she watches a season of the Bachelor she just follows everyone.
Speaker 2:Hey, selectively. Okay. I don't accept all the suggestions that the algorithm makes for me, even though the algorithm is probably tailored to me and suggested people to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean like there are like quote unquote, fans of mine or followers of mine who I I have like pretty long form tech like DM relationships with it at this point and it'll be interesting because I don't follow some of them back just because I I don't really like to follow that many people.
Speaker 1:I mean just because I'm more interested in like recipe content. But yeah, so they do know a lot about me, but we do talk, but never talked on the phone. Live in different states, I don't know, I don't really know what you would call that. So live in different states, I don't know, I don't really know what you would call that.
Speaker 2:So this is. This is this topic is so interesting.
Speaker 2:It's more interesting than I thought when we first started and I'm also, I'm just you know, I'm just really thinking about our value in relationships, what we see as relationships and how much do we want ourselves in the relationship. Right, there's something very comforting about watching friends reruns and watching reality tv and feeling like I know these people and they're my friends and they're in my life, but like they don't know anything about me. There's no risk involved, right, there's just. There's just all the the fun, the fun part of gossip without actually being a player. Um, and yeah, what does that even mean? I?
Speaker 1:guess yeah I think it's just kind of like we're how much we're shying away from being an active participant in our, in our world yeah, yeah, it's interesting too with celebrities because I can imagine, okay, like I'm a fan of Taylor Swift's work I don't actually care about her that much as a person, but like, let's say I did, and then let's say we became best friends. I bet the first thing I would experience is intense excitement that I'm friends with Taylor Swift and the second thing I would experience is intense envy that Taylor Swift is Taylor Swift. You know, like as soon as she became my friends, I'd be like you have a billion dollars and you have an amazing life, and like everybody loves you, and I mean like why would that?
Speaker 1:happen if you got to know her personally, versus, like, if you're just looking at her because when you're in a relationship with a person, I just think it's like it's closer, it's sorry, it's harder, the closer that person is to not feel envy. And I think that's shown in literature, like, for instance, I had more envy for fellow contestants on the Bachelor who got a lot more followers than me than I did for Taylor Swift, and that, yeah, that's typical. It's like when somebody's an abstraction, that's fine, but as soon as you step into their house, you know and have dinner and see all the things you don't have and you're like. I'm just like you. We have so many similar qualities. Why can't I be a gazillionaire superstar?
Speaker 2:Then you're like putting yourself on their level versus like their distance you could be like well, they're just these like demigods.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly.
Speaker 2:I would actually imagine I thought, when you were going with that, I thought you're going to say you're disappointed Because, along with getting to know someone, you might be going on their level. But you might actually see how the sausage is made, right Like you hanging out with other Bachelor contestants. Like you could see how painful it is to get all those texts, you could see how much they work to like post things that look effortless and candid and spontaneous, right, yeah, and I might use that as well, yeah, uh-huh, to like post things that look effortless and candid and spontaneous, right like yeah, and I might use that as well yeah, uh-huh, yeah, to actually like be envious and also disappointed in the humanity that you see and I mean you can also be disappointed in the part like with the celebrity.
Speaker 1:He's one of my very favorite actors. And then he goes to me and I was like fuck, like he's in my favorite movie that I watch, like you know, when I go through a breakup and it makes me feel better. And now it's like this dude, who had a huge crush on ghosted me and he's like the, the heartthrob. What movie is it? Dangerous beauty.
Speaker 2:Uh huh, uh huh, uh huh.
Speaker 1:You can beauty. Uh-huh, you could all look up who it is you can. No, I think we covered it. Yeah, I think when we first got into this, we were like, what is there going to be to say on this topic, and it turned out to be pretty rich area. So, thank you for those of us who requested this, um, if you have a parasocial, if you have a parasocial relationship with us because of this podcast and you want us to make us feel better about ourselves, and if you could give us a five star rating on apple podcasts and spotify, we really appreciate it and we really like the comments. They make us happy. So, seriously though we do, we really we really appreciate um ratings and reviews and we also like to hear your feedback. So, um, I do just want to say I talk about the negative sides of my, you know, of the followers that I've had. I do just want to say, like, my community on Instagram is so warm and respectful and great, and has been for a really long time now. I'm really just talking about, you know, three to five years ago and I'm really grateful for the people that listen to this podcast and follow me on Instagram and are so kind to me. So thank you to all of you and we'll see you in a couple of weeks.
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