Love can feel "dysregulated" even in the best relationships with intense infatuation, disappointments, intimacy, and heartbreak. However, dating someone with borderline personality disorder (BPD) means these ups and downs can get extreme. In this episode, we talk about what it's like to be in a romantic relationship with BPD. We also give tips for people coping with a partner with BPD and other signs of emotion regulation problems.
Resources:
Love can feel "dysregulated" even in the best relationships with intense infatuation, disappointments, intimacy, and heartbreak. However, dating someone with borderline personality disorder (BPD) means these ups and downs can get extreme. In this episode, we talk about what it's like to be in a romantic relationship with BPD. We also give tips for people coping with a partner with BPD and other signs of emotion regulation problems.
Resources:
Hey, little helpers, kibbe and I are back in our wheelhouse with this week's episode. So we're going to talk about what it's like to date somebody with borderline personality disorder. So we're going to talk about what it's like to date somebody with borderline personality disorder. This is, you know, it combines our two favorite topics, bpd and dating, so pretty excited to do this episode. First of all, just wanted to start with some life updates, though I feel like we have left you guys hanging on some pretty major news, like Kippy, what's up with cancer?
Speaker 2:Good morning to you too. It's going well. Um, just got through chemo, uh, and had my first set of three surgeries and boy, I mean, this is, it's just so weird to be like 38, no family history of breast cancer and, you know, with a toddler and yeah, so it just is. It's taken me some time to kind of process this and see like the existential crisis of it all. But yeah, I'm through the worst of it, I think, and everything's looking good. I've responded well to the treatment. I'm feeling better every day. I know I have a long road ahead of me with other kinds of you know, surgeries and meds, but I think we caught it early enough where I'm going to be okay. So, like crossing fingers, feeling good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, chemo seemed like it was awful, which was no surprise really. Um any like anything you would say to people about that experience?
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't have it, you can't. Don't have cancer and don't go through chemo. Um, no, I think it's. I think it was a big exercise and, um, doing the things that was really hard for me, which is asking for help, uh, fully admitting that I am quote quote, useless and like at a lower capacity for a long time, you know. So it's like half a year. You feel like less of yourself. You feel like my friend described it very well like being filled with cement and yet empty. So I had to kind of cope with feeling like not as productive and engaged or energetic as I, as I used to be. So I just appreciate, you know, I started to have renewed appreciation for the people in my life, like you and my family and, um, yeah, so it kind of like cleared away some of the crap that I was, like all my neuroses, and it was just like, okay, survive and, um, accept my limitations. So it was hard, yeah.
Speaker 1:I do just want to point out, though, that when KB calls herself useless, what she means is that she wasn't working at optimal capacity while forming a startup and now transitioning into a CEO role. So do you want to tell us about?
Speaker 2:that I did that. Um, yeah, it's a crazy kind of like startup world. I, you know, just for people who have no idea what I'm talking about, I'm a co-founder and now CEO of a digital mental health company that supports loved ones of people with mental illness. Which is all you guys. And yeah, I think I just like all up until this point I've had imposter syndrome, not wanting to be like the leader of anything and kind of like hiding behind people who are quote like more experienced or better. But there's some circumstances led to me having to take over as CEO and we changed the name to Kula Mind, which I'm actually really excited about K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D, because cool is a Sanskrit word for a clan or community that comes together to practice.
Speaker 1:So I like the name.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so it's fun, it's, it's. Yeah, I'm having to confront a lot of imposter syndrome for myself on many levels, but I'm really excited to do other things besides this podcast to support people with who love someone with a mental illness. So it's, you know, it's fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think this episode in particular, if any of this resonates with you, this might be kind of the perfect situation for seeking Kibbe services out, because dating somebody with borderline personality disorder is difficult and there are a lot of unique complexities, um and so, um, you don't have to do it alone. How about you? What's new in your life? My life is good. My birthday was two days ago, but I'm acting as though it's still my birthday today and tomorrow, and I would like to extend into sunday, but that's father's day, so I don't know. I've got a lot of competition there. I have two weeks left at duke, just two weeks, which is absolutely bananas, because we started this when I was a first year, I think maybe a second year or something, yeah.
Speaker 1:And now I'm headed out. So Jason and I moved in together like three and a half months ago. It's a little rocky at first Transitions are tough sometimes but we're doing really well now. And yeah, I'm just working on my dissertation. And yeah, I'm just working on my dissertation, doing art reading, having senioritis and about to move to New York.
Speaker 2:How was the transition for you? Because I know a lot of people listening tend to go like, okay, when is it time to move in with someone? You know what is it like. You know all the questions that we talk about in our podcast, like, yeah, when are things a deal breaker and when can you use skills, kind of get through a hard time, what?
Speaker 1:what do you think for your transition? Yeah, I mean, honestly, we could actually probably do an episode on moving in, because it is, it was. It was more difficult than I thought. I mean, when Paul and I moved in, it was more organic because COVID hit and also his house was like a 15 minute walk from my apartment, so I was just spending a lot of time there anyway, um, and he didn't have a kid, so, um, it was just, you know, we were our entire focus, and so I just sort of started spending more and more time there and eventually moved in with Jason. It was more like we had a relationship where we only really saw each other on the weekends and that meant that that time was fairly focused on me. I mean, it was sort of made to be special, um, and then moving in, it was just a little bit more difficult adjusting to his actual life of, like working a lot during the week and having to split his attention between me and his son and his job um and the house jason.
Speaker 1:I have like very different styles where I'm very flexible, and yeah, it's just those memes where it's like one person loads a dishwasher like a Swedish architect and the other one, you know, like a crazed raccoon, like that's definitely us, and so that actually hasn't been as bad as I thought it would be. But things like who gets to design the house, that was like a major conflict, but anyway, all that's basically just been smoothed out. It was a tough transition, but we're kind of back on top, so I'm not too worried anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great. I mean, this is the downside of getting together with someone later in their life or in a different life stage, like the downside and the plus side. The plus side is people know themselves better, right, they have responsibilities, they know what a serious relationship is like. But also, at this age we're a lot less likely to want to flex right. It's like, oh God, I've had to, you know, change my lifestyle or change the way I, you know, have to compromise on my house or the way I like to have my house. At 20-something, I would have been fine. 38 is a different story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's going to be one of our biggest difficulties when I'm back from New York, because we have very different ideas of what a house should look like. And they're both good ideas I mean, he's a beautiful decorator. It's just not my style.
Speaker 2:You need two houses. You need a main house and then you need, like a garage that's like yours. You know, or his yeah or his or. I hit the garage Because I was imagining you like doing arts and crafts and stuff like that you know, Like somewhere where you can you know. But yeah, you're right, you should get the main house, he gets the garage Problem solved. You're welcome, Jason. All right Relationships and BPD.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know. I mean this is interesting because, like, conflicted interpersonal relationships is literally a symptom criteria for BPD, so that gives you a hint right Of of how these relationships typically go. I do want to, though, make a note that, like I mean, with many, many disorders, these people can look pretty different. I mean, there's no we've said this before but there's nine symptoms. You have to get five to meet criteria. That means that you could have two different people with only one overlapping symptom, so it's not like you can just say, okay, well, I just met somebody with BPD, so I know exactly how it's going to go, because I listened to this podcast and all people with BPD are the same in relationships. You know, like I mean, I have a friend with BPD who seems like she's in a very highly functional relationship and, on average, there are a lot of difficulties associated. Kimmy, do you want to kind of start out giving just a refresher picture of what BPD is?
Speaker 2:Yeah, for people who haven't listened to other episodes that we've had or just like have no idea what it is. The way we think about BPD borderline personality disorder now is dysregulation of emotion, so people who have really a hard time managing the experience and intensity of their emotions or responding to it in healthy ways, and also relationship disturbance and identity disturbance. I mean relationships are up and down, hot and cold, um and um. The person has a hard time knowing who they are, so their interests may change, their identity might change over time. They might look to. It's a lot of like looking at outside and external things to kind of determine how they feel inside.
Speaker 2:So, you could see that's a lot of like up and down and changing colors in that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I also want to give just a quick overview of the biosocial model, which is sort of the theory of how BPD develops. And I might add my own little shame flourish, because I think shame is very highly related with BPD. Actually, I know what it is, but basically the idea is that I know it is, but basically the idea is that you know, when we have a baby, they come out with just a set of tools like okay, I cry and scream when I'm hungry and when I'm scared, and eventually I'll learn how to smile, you know, to get a social reward or something like that. Right, but basically the tools they have for getting their needs met are all expressions of emotion, pretty basic emotions, and the theory states that basically this kid comes out with a sensitive temperament. So all babies are born with sort of like an overall temperament.
Speaker 1:It doesn't tell you a ton of information, but like maybe some babies are just really sensitive and so they cry a little bit louder, more easily. Well, these babies tend to be a little bit more difficult because it can frassle your nerves, right If you're, if you're getting cried out all the time. And this is met with parents who are sort of uniquely not so prepared or capable of responding to this temperament, and so they might be neglectful. They might freak out when the baby cries and, you know, yell at it or basically they are not.
Speaker 1:The baby comes out having these expectations of like when I cry, I get food or I get a hug and comfort, and instead they get very confusing signals like, oh, when I cry, I get yelled at. Oh, when I cry, nothing happens. I don't get like, my tools aren't working Right, and that's very dysregulating and confusing. And then that baby grows up and sort of the same thing keeps happening. So they grow into a toddler, a child, their ability to understand what's going on in somebody else's head develops and again they are just not getting fall and hit their knee, they're not getting comforted, uh, even though they're asking for comfort, and I don't know when they, when they laugh and giggle at their parents, they get a stony face. Perhaps this is like a very kind of basic picture, but when that happens you get really confused because you're like nothing I'm doing is working, like I don't know how to relate. And so then you start hyper attending to the other person in the external world. Like, okay, if I, if my internal world isn't really getting me what I need, it's not working correctly, then maybe if I just super, super attend to the outside world, then I can start understanding a little bit better and the sense of shame develops like, oh, because shame happens when the other person is sort of mirroring back to you a version of yourself that you don't really like very much.
Speaker 1:And when you're getting, when you're, when you're asking for certain things with your emotions and the person isn't responding the way you expect, then that is likely to happen. Right, if you start crying because you scrape your knee and your dad says get the fuck over it, get up, like don't be, you know, be a man. That's like, oh God, okay, I guess I, I guess I was being a baby, I guess it's not okay to cry, it's not okay to feel this way, it's not okay to feel this way. And so, over time, there's this sort of confusing identity created and it becomes very scary. It becomes like, okay, if I can't trust myself to do the things that will elicit the right emotional reaction to another, then maybe I can't trust myself to help them stick around, maybe they'll leave me and then I'll be alone in this scary world. Um, you know, maybe they hate me. Oh my gosh. And so there's a lot of desperation involved in this.
Speaker 2:Anything you would add initially Gibby, um, no, you're giving a really good um picture of how this comes about. I could kind of give a little picture of what this looks like in relationships when that that baby becomes an adult, so, but I think you captured it really well where it's basically. It's a, it's a person who's really sensitive, really emotionally sensitive. Emotions are big. They don't know how to handle it and then, as you you're saying that that's, those signals of emotion are shut down or invalidated. Then they're starting to look to the outside world to figure out what should I do? What's okay, what's right, what am I feeling?
Speaker 1:yeah, and this, you know, this can happen in like hobbies, like okay, um, right now I'm a ballerina because I take ballet. That's an external cue that I have. Okay, so I guess I can have that be my identity. Oh, but wait, now I'm not getting good social feedback for that or I'm losing interest. Oh no, my entire identity is crashing, and so what?
Speaker 1:can happen kind of in adolescence. And so what can happen kind of in adolescence is there can be this tendency to pull identity cues from other people. So you know, if they want to keep a friend around, they know they can't trust their own emotional reactions. But maybe if they make themselves a perfect fit for the friend and if they kind of take on identity of the friend, then they won't be left, and so that can be like a costume identity that they put on.
Speaker 1:The problem is, when you do that, you're not sincerely expressing yourself and your soul kind of gets starved, a little bit Like wait a minute, this is a costume identity, this isn't your actual identity. You know, these things that you're doing for your friend, it's not actually genuine to you. And now, by the way, you know your friend is kind of getting like everything they could possibly want because you're not expressing your needs and you're just doing whatever they think is good. And now there's a bit of a, an internal mutiny. That can happen, where then the person with BPD gets very dysregulated and starts lashing out and then the friend is incredibly confused and this can happen. I mean this happens in in relationships up until adulthood. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it as you're describing. It's almost kind of like the um, a machine that's avoiding shame at all costs, meaning avoiding rejection at all costs. I become the thing that I think you want, and you can imagine how many problems that comes with, Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah so it's.
Speaker 2:It's interesting to think of what it's like to date someone with BPD thing to think of what it's like to date someone with bpd. And I mean there's all this research that we're just looking at before where it just basically says, like people with bpd have difficult romantic relationships, no surprise a lot of rejection, sensitivity, intense emotions to things that they think are rejecting, even though the other person might not. You know mean to.
Speaker 2:but if you're like, oh, am I dating someone with bpd? If it, if it feels like, if it feels, if it feels extreme all the time in different ways, if it feels like everything is worse and crumbling and a disaster and a crisis or everything is totally fine, and then it kind of balances back and forth between those things. Or like this person loves me and I'm the perfect person and this is amazing. Oh wait, I'm actually garbage. I'm just like everyone else in their life who didn't understand them. I'm nothing, right. That's kind of like zero to 60, zero to 60 all the time. That could be a sign of you know you're dating someone with BPD. So some pictures of what that looks like.
Speaker 2:This book that we're going to reference is called Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder really great book. But the many phases of borderline personality disorder can look like the person says I can't stand feeling like this, or it was all my fault and you have to fix this for me. Like moments when they feel really vulnerable and overwhelmed. Right, it could be like everything is crashing down. You have to help me, you're the only person who could help me.
Speaker 2:Or it could actually flip the other way, where the person who has BPD does what's called apparent competence right, where they're like everything is awful, but it's okay, I got it, everything is perfect, I'll do anything you want, and it's almost like this person's like hyper capable. I've seen some of this in my friends, like these kind of BPD relationships, and I takes for you to love them and accept them. They're going to be like a chameleon to what you want, right. They're going to seem like the perfect person. They're going to seem like they get you in ways that you've never been understood before. They're able to, like, meet your needs as a partner in ways that you didn't like, just feel so intimate and deep and seen, and then suddenly it all explodes in some ways. So it could be super disorienting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean these relationships tend to when. When they tend to last long, it's because there's a huge hook in the beginning, like these relationships can be described as just the most passionate, intense, glittery. You know relationships in the world in a different way than love bombing. This isn't just like you get tons of gifts and you get charmed your ass off. It's more like what you're saying. It's this person is molding them to be, molding themselves to be everything that you could ever want and they they are perhaps seeing really deep parts of you. They're very attuned to pain. They're not afraid of it in the sense. Um, because they spend a lot of time there, I'm there.
Speaker 1:But eventually, you know, you can get kind of lulled into a false sense of safety where it's like oh my gosh, okay, I'm in this incredible relationship. We see each other. This is unbelievable.
Speaker 1:I'm blinded by love and you might slip up or not slip up, but behave in such a way like maybe you emerge from the cocoon and go out with your friends for a night and then suddenly the seed of doubt is planted in the, in the person with BPD, and it's like are they pulling away? Are they rejecting me? And then also the person with BPD tends to have pretty black and white thinking, and then also the person with BPD tends to have pretty black and white thinking. So you know, if they perceive any kind of hint of like, something like irritation, frustration, maybe not even those, maybe just like you, kind of differentiating yourself for a minute and you know, returning to the outside world or saying something in the wrong way, it's not, oh, my partner's kind of annoyed with me. I should maybe adjust my behavior. It's they hate me and they're going to leave me, and that is very confusing to the person without BPD.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean just thinking about it. I'll call myself out and in my first relationship in high school I would. I probably had BPD back then.
Speaker 1:I would say you know I either had BPD traits.
Speaker 2:I mean, I grew out of it, you know, in some ways, hopefully. But I definitely, looking back at my first relationship, I, you know I meet all the things that we're talking about At the time. I mean, I, you, you know, I feel emotions intensely and at the time my mom was really sick and so I had like a really chaotic life at that point and so at that age, at 15, my boyfriend and relationship was like all I had and I was having intense emotions. I couldn't manage, so I was dysregulated and I was having intense emotions. I couldn't manage, so I was dysregulated.
Speaker 2:And I remember, yeah, just kind of, you know, because you're a teenager too, it's kind of like teenage love and BPD love kind of feel similar when, oh my God, this love is the most intense. We're soulmates, we're one, we're fused into one, we like the same things. Oh, you know, I want to learn everything about him and become that right. But then, even if he went out or talked to another girl, it was like suddenly he was leaving me. I was losing my whole world, I was losing myself.
Speaker 2:So I would just, we would have awful fights on the street and I think, we broke up at like at least 40 times, right, it was like this passionate makeup. We're super in love and then you're the worst.
Speaker 1:You're ruining my life, we're breaking up, and that would happen like on a weekly basis, so yeah, I do want to point out that I mean your example brings up another thing I wanted to talk about, which is okay. I think when we talk about people with BPD in relationships broadly, it's going to sound like the person with BPD is the perpetrator, like they make the relationship worse. But I also think that people with no I know, I know that people with BPD are very susceptible to abuse, and your first boyfriend was very emotionally abusive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's like was he actually rejecting me and setting me off or what I was? I reading into it? I think it was both, was both right, and I can imagine that if you tend to love dating people with BPD, there's something intoxicating to you and and something that draws you in the chaos of it, like the intensity. You might like intensity. You might like this deep, deep, deep, deep, all or nothing consuming love and then pulling out of it, right it's. It's like you're not, you might not be comfortable with this like normal, integrative, where two individuals and love is a little bit more chill. Yeah, so the intensity could be intoxicating. It could feel like you have so much power over the other person, right, because everything you do makes that person fly off the handle, so that could feel a little powerful, I guess. Yeah, so I just imagine there might be it on the other side.
Speaker 2:Oh, and also, I've read somewhere that narcissists and BPD kind of sometimes come together and I imagine it's because, if you, if, when PPD, someone with BPD goes, you're amazing, you're, you're everything to me, you're the only person, you're the most special person in my life. Wait, no, you're garbage, right? This kind of like idealization, devaluation, flip. Well, someone with narcissism probably buys into that. Right that that is the definition of like what a narcissist feels I'm amazing, I'm perfect, everyone loves me. Oh wait, I'm garbage. So I imagine, like their self-image and the way that someone with bpd treats them could be actually like synced up, yeah, yeah exactly um and then and then.
Speaker 1:People with bpd are fairly easily controllable in certain ways. Because if you, if you have a low sense of self-worth, if you have a very, if you have schemas about you, know that you are kind of a shameful person, that people will reject you, then a lot of times they'll do anything to avoid that, and so the abusive partner has a lot of power and control there, because the their partner will do anything to prevent them from leaving them. And that can feel good. I mean, to other people who don't have that configuration, that might be extremely stressful. You might feel like you can't leave your partner because they're threatening suicide if you leave, because they're saying basically that you're their entire reason for living.
Speaker 1:And that can be intoxicating at first when it's like, oh, this is like a novel, you know. But then over time, when you want to differentiate yourself a little bit and you feel like you can't, or you start seeing red flags, that can feel like, oh no, now I'm a caretaker, now I'm trapped, I can't get out of this, because what are they going to do to themselves? And it is somewhat of a real risk, you know. I mean it's not just total manipulation, it's the person with BPD probably actually feels that way, and that's terrifying. It's absolutely terrifying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the other risk about how that would affect the dynamic between you two is and it says this a lot in the Loving Someone with a BPD book that I like a lot but it's tempting to then treat the person with BPD like a child. And sometimes the person with BPD feels like a child. The couple of patients I've had recently who have BPD traits say that you know, they feel childlike. They're embarrassed because when they get upset they feel like they're like being a baby and it kind of does feel like that where, because it's like an immature way of dealing with emotions, like exploding and crying and then being like shut down, it's tempting for both parties to treat the person with BPD like an infant right To like be like. Oh gosh, I can't say anything bad, otherwise they're just going to kill themselves or I can't leave, I have to take care of them, right it's. It becomes like this you know it shifts the balance of power and authority where the romantic partner without BBD might feel like they're more of a parent than they are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that has interesting implications for sex. At first that might feel amazing, and then it's usually like being feeling like a caretaker. Is it's the? It's anti sexy, you know, and so you may have had this experience where, like at first sex was unbelievably intense and then after a while it becomes like oh no, I feel like you're my child.
Speaker 2:I am so mad that I haven't looked up how BPD influences sex.
Speaker 1:I wonder if there's any research on that, because that's like that.
Speaker 2:As you say that, I'm like, oh my God must be such cool research, but I doubt there's anything on that. But yeah, I can imagine that too, especially if people with BPD have the tendency to really be able to intuit and meet your needs. Yeah, Sexually, that must be really intense, and then over time, yeah, you know, that's so interesting thinking about that.
Speaker 1:Well, and they're wildly emotional, you know, and so that suddenly this person is having this incredibly emotionally connected sex. I mean, a lot of the times we're all stuck in our heads, right, and so it can be a little, it can feel a little choreographed, but with this person, I mean, you might be feeling all of the emotional passion that we hear about in movies, but then you know so, either that that caretaker anti-sexy thing happens, or that emotional intimacy that you have in the beginning becomes emotional betrayal over time.
Speaker 1:And you start feeling incredibly unsafe with this person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if I'm looking back at my own history, I think that, being that chameleon for the other person right, that chameleon for the other person right Like to be to meet their sexual needs, to figure out what they want and to become that in my sex life you know like you do anything you can to I'm speaking as a person with BPD if you do everything you can to try to keep that person right, to have them love you and to get that unconditional love and regard that you know you feel like was missing, and so you become the chameleon.
Speaker 2:You do everything you want in bed, everything they want in bed, but then you don't take time to figure out what you want, right, like I really didn't. It took me until my late thirties to really settle into thinking about, like, what do I want sexually? How can I actually ask for that Does? Is it okay for me to want different things than the other person? Right, it just like it completely became sex, became a way to feel that connection and to get that quote, quote, approval, and I did that through, like completely denying my own desires yeah, oh, I think that's also a condition felt by just many women, because we're yeah, that's true sent so many messages.
Speaker 1:Well, and we know that, like BPD is higher in the female population, that's contested, um, because it might be that men are underdiagnosed, they might be showing some different symptoms, but I mean, traditionally it's thought that it's higher in the female population and women are socialized. To feel like sex is one way that you give to men and your own yeah, your own desire is going to be sublimated. But I think you know, giving so much to the other person, what would this incredibly earnest sense of like I want to please them, I want to make them happy this is this now makes me feel connected. What an intoxicating mix. But, yeah, but then over time it's like I mean, I don't know what it would be like for the person with BPD, how they would be able to stay connected with sex if none of their needs are being met Because the other person might not know how to meet them or that they aren't meeting them.
Speaker 2:Right, right, I think the main need that might be met I'm speaking for myself, I'm not saying research or anyone else, but the main need to to get that deep connection with that person right and to feel indispensable to them, if I'm like the perfect sex partner to them. There it's first of all like a moment where they are one with me, right, like they're there with me and also I can't be replaced. So it's it's pretty intoxicating on both ends. But then it took me a really long time to be like wait a minute, I don't actually like. I don't actually like this, like how do I have an orgasm during sex? Like it just yeah, all that stuff came into play much later in my life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's funny. I've never felt that way. I've never felt indispensable through sex, or like I've made oneness with a person Really.
Speaker 2:Even when you were younger.
Speaker 1:No, I felt like most of the time I felt like I was being used for sex, so I felt the opposite of oneness, and that was my cross to bear. Getting over that, you know like, oh, this person actually is trying to connect with me. Anyway, I guess one more thing I'll say about that developmental model is, first of all, when you're talking about that kind of infantile behavior, it's like, yeah, there is arrested development never got the normal developmental experience of seeing how their emotions work and then calibrating them and understanding correctly how other people understand them and react to them and then being able to soften their emotions. Instead, what happens is, you know, when you are not getting the response that you want from your caregivers but it's kind of the only tool you have you tend to raise the volume, so it's like, okay, well, so I'm asking for a hug right now. Okay, they're not giving it to me, maybe I need to ask a little bit harder. Okay, maybe not.
Speaker 1:And then you know you have this big emotional outburst and that's very difficult for parents to ignore, and so basically, there's this thing that happens where the person with BPD or the little kid you know, isn't getting their needs met when they ask in normal ways, and so the only thing they learn works is when they ask in really, really huge, disruptive ways, and so that's another pattern they can carry forward. So you might. This zero to sixty thing is like wait a minute, I thought everything was fine and now all of a sudden you're screaming at me. What am I supposed to make of that Like why couldn't you have asked in a normal way? And it's like well, because that historically hasn't worked. Do you have an example of what this might look like? She asks as if she doesn't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had besides for myself, clearly, but I had two friends who were dating and it really I was really close to both of them and just watching what that looks like, what the BPD relationship looks like, it was kind of. It was kind of like exhilarating and terrifying at the same time to be kind of like around it. Um, of course, all obscure names and identifying information, but the funny thing is that the person with bpd, the, the girl with bpd traits you know I can't diagnose her, but she had traits was so, so smart and capable and, you know, so empathetic, right, just, can read people, just, uh, just one of the most brilliant psychological brains ever seen. Um, at the same time, there are other parts of her that were a mess. Like she was very messy in her life, right, like her stuff was everywhere. Things were kind of dirty and chaotic, um, she would kind of hop from job to job kind of situation. But she got together with my other friend and it was so confusing because we were probably in our like 20s and my non BPD friend was trying to, you know, just like discover himself. So it's like two people like with identity disturbance friend was trying to, you know, just like discover himself. So it's like two people like with identity disturbance, two people trying to discover themselves, and it like when they were good, they were so good they were. It was like mind meld and the sex was apparently amazing and they were like. They were almost like finishing each other's sentences. Their jokes were just like, you know, it just like was almost like intoxicating to watch them be a couple. Right, they were just like this beautiful, smart, funny, engaged couple.
Speaker 2:But then my non-BBD friend I'll call him Tom, tom and Mary, I don't know, tom did not have BPD, mary had BPD. So Tom would want to like explore other things and he was trying to hang out with other people in his new job, in his new community and even, you know, going out for drinks with girls who are also, you know, just like trying to be a 20 something year old, right, discovering himself. But every time he would venture out and do something like that, it would lead to like so much jealousy and rage on Mary's part and he had a hard time trying to figure out what was normal, right, it's like, of course jealousy is normal, he's like going out with girls and like young, handsome guy, but so it's like part of it is normal. But then it started to get to levels where it felt strange to him Like it felt like, okay, is this normal that I just went out to a coffee with a coworker and she's like enraged for the next couple of days. It made him feel like doubt himself and wonder if he's like a horrible person.
Speaker 2:Right, and getting that reality check was really hard, because they get just more and more isolated in that relationship. It was like they were each other's whole world, right, right. But it started to look like he was doing everything he could to try to it was like walking on eggshells, right To like make sure she doesn't explode. So anytime he would go out and hang out with a girl, even platonically, he would have to come home and describe exactly what they did or talked about to her. So she would get to feel like, okay, I still have him, or like I still have control over him.
Speaker 2:That's my interpretation, I don't know. But yeah, there was like one time where we all were going to go out to a party and I think he made some comment about how we need to hurry up or she need to get dressed, or something like that, and she locked herself in the bathroom screaming and he spent the whole night sitting outside trying to console her. You know, I had to go to the party by myself and yeah, that was. That was like one of many circumstances where suddenly everything was a disaster right and then like the whole world had to focus on trying to get her to calm down. Yeah, kind of like how I do with my two-year-old right.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I mean, it sounds all consuming. And there can be, I think, a time in life, often in adolescence or our twenties, where we want to be in these all consuming relationships. At first, like we, we think that sounds amazing to just you know, you gosh, you meet this person and you just can't stop thinking about them and you go to bed thinking about them, and then you and then you start dating and it's like, oh my gosh, it's my whole. I'm like addicted to this person. But at a certain point and then it's like, okay, maybe you break up and then relationships feel boring. But I don't know, now in my life I'm like I'm so glad I have a relationship where I don't have to think about him all the time. You know, I can think about other stuff. I can have hobbies, I can have friends.
Speaker 1:And that becomes really exciting. So it's just yeah, to me I hear that and it just sounds absolutely exhausting. But I can see, in a sense, the appeal at first and it's tough, especially when you haven't been in a lot of relationships, because yeah, don't, you don't have a comparison group, so you don't know if it's normal this behavior. And then you're like yeah.
Speaker 2:And then you're like, yeah, maybe it is my fault, maybe I'm horrible partner yeah, and I think therapists of people with bpd and partners of people with bpd feel this similar thing. Where from the outside it looks like, oh clear, this person is a disaster, break up with them, right. But when you're in an intimate relationship with someone with BPD, it feels like there is something intoxicating about it. It feels like you have touched each other in this really vulnerable place. Like that sense of intimacy is stronger than a lot of other relationships. So, yeah, you like recognize and are scared of the explosions, but you also keep in mind the fragility and vulnerability of that person. So you're like I can't break up with them. Not only do am I afraid to not find this kind of connection with anyone else, but also like I remember and know the moments when they're they've like crumbled into this, like vulnerable person that just loves me.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It's like that's really hard to say goodbye to, and it happens also they we've talked about this with people with nars. You know narcissism. We're dating someone like that where there's something that's hard to let go of. When you see that person be so vulnerable to you and so loving of you, it's like I've seen their soft side. You're not seeing it with all these explosions, but I've seen how tender and loving they could be and it breaks my heart to to like hurt them.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:I mean it's a yeah, that's a feeling I'm well acquainted with and it, you know, with BPD.
Speaker 1:I think it's especially sad because these people really do have a soft underbelly and I mean I really like working with them because there's a ton of vulnerability and a ton of sweetness that I see in an attachment and a lot of trying and um and yeah, it's just, it's very, it's very vulnerable, but it's it's tough, because I really want these people to find love, I want them to be loved, but it's just really tough and you know, for their sake, also like I don't want them to get themselves in a romantic situation where they're ultimately feeling like shit about themselves all the time, or potentially controlled.
Speaker 1:Or you know like, yeah, like I had a previous patient who got together with a woman who was a drug addict and my patient with BPD was like so desperate for this relationship that they became a drug addict. You know, because it's like I'll do anything to connect with you. I, you know like if this is how you want to spend your time, this is how I'll spend my time, and then it was a terrible, terrible situation. So I really advocate for treatment. I mean we always do, but it's not like there's no hope. It's just that without treatment, without that opportunity to develop your interpersonal skills and your emotional regulation skills, these relationships are going to be really difficult.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that when you're dating someone with BPD, you'd have that like the lie in your mind that you can handle this on your own. But in truth, this is what we know from DBT, the treatment for borderline personality disorder. In DBT, all individual therapists have a consultation group. That's a really important part of the treatment, where all the therapists get together and they support each other and give each other reality checks and and that's super important when you're, when you're close to someone with this level of like intensity, right Like of course, therapists themselves sometimes get a little overwhelmed or disoriented and it's really important to have those other people to support you.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's one of the one of the major motivations why I started my company. It's and this coaching is because people who are dating or married to someone with BPD they might be alone and they're constantly like confused and questioning themselves and if they're lucky, they could have someone else in their camp, like another family member or friend, to provide that support. And it's important for that support to be both to be like objective and compassionate to that other person. Right Like it's not helpful when it's like just dump her, she's crazy. Right Like cause it's not reflecting how the other good parts of the relationship, but if it's someone who could say to you yeah, I mean they are suffering, they have intense emotions, they love you, you love them and maybe these kind of patterns are actually not not healthy for you and they got to change right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's important to note here that somebody with BPD is not a bad person. It's not that easy, you know. I think when you see somebody in a relationship like this, it can be really easy to just say, like they're crazy, you need to get out. Like they're manipulating you, they're treating you horribly and you know there might be some truth to these things.
Speaker 1:But there there is sincere love here and that can be really hard to reject to get to disentangle from you know, it's not that we need to villainize somebody with BPD, but at the same time, it is okay to leave, like it is okay to prioritize yourself and your emotional safety and the life that you want to live, even if this other person is suffering and genuinely loves you. That's, that's really hard and genuinely loves you, and that's that's really hard, yeah.
Speaker 2:And also to make it clear that, especially if your loved one, if your partner, threatens suicide, that is a level where it's okay to feel overwhelmed and to need treatment, to need extra help, right To get that person into you know, like, if, if it's like a real threat, like they have real intent and means to hurt themselves, to like call 911, um, get them into a good you know, dbt or other kinds of therapy program, it's okay for you to say to yourself if they're threatening suicide, this is, this is out of suicide, this is out of my capacity, because if you think about it, they're holding a smoking gun to the head of someone you love. Literally, you are then afraid of death and harm, right. So if you're not trained for that, even if you are trained for that, you need extra, you need some extra help for that. That situation.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I don't think anyone's equipped to deal with that alone. Yeah, well, okay. Any tips, though if people are in these relationships, maybe it's not a romantic relationship, maybe this is a more permanent relationship, like how.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll, I'll take it right from this book Some loving someone with borderline personality disorder by Sherry Manning. I really love that. She put a five step response to someone with BPD. Who's you know, maybe you know you're an argument or they're feeling emotional. There's five different steps. One I'll list them out and then we could go into them. One is regulate your own emotion. Two is validate. Three is gently ask or assess. Four brainstorm, troubleshoot. And five get information on your role and what you can plan on hearing about the outcome.
Speaker 2:So the first step is like regulate your own emotion. Right, it's like it might. When they are in intense emotion, it's going to bring up something in you, whether it's anger, whether it's resentment, guilt, panic in your own self. Right, if you're in that place, it's going to be really hard for you to respond to their intense emotions. So do what you can to take a breath, calm down, get a reality check in your mind. Even if it's like whoa, I'm noticing that I am getting intense and overwhelmed. Let me just like get back to myself and get on this plan right Anything you want to say about regulating your own emotion.
Speaker 1:I mean it can be hard to realize that you are the one who has to step up and do that. You know. I mean when somebody comes at you out of nowhere, it's like why should I be the one has to regulate? But it's about doing what's effective, not what's fair. So if you want a good result, you got to regulate.
Speaker 2:Yeah and to yeah maybe have the painful admission that that your partner can't be the one to soothe you at that moment. If they're overwhelmed.
Speaker 2:They're dealing with their own survival mode. You can get you know, support, coaching, therapy or any other way to like help you deal with your emotions. But in that moment you have to be like okay, I have to take care of how I feel, I have to calm down or get to a place where I can think clearly. And the second is to validate I mean, we've talked about this all the time but validate their emotions. That's the best way we know to soothe someone else's intense emotion is to communicate empathy and acknowledgement of how that other person feels.
Speaker 1:It's incredibly powerful. I mean not with every single person on earth, but I don't know. Just clinically validating can. It can take them from a hostile space to a vulnerable soft space very, very quickly, because they're always on the defense for invalidation, because they've had to be, that's what they got throughout their whole childhood and maybe into adulthood, you know, because then once they developed these unskillful habits, they got invalidated a lot, um and so feeling heard suddenly can melt them. It's, it's pretty amazing, and again, this can feel unfairly. The last thing you want to do is validate what you see as an invalid reaction. But if you can regulate and then realize like, okay, their feelings are coming from some place, the even if it's a interpretation, that of the situation that you think is completely off mark, that interpretation they're making is causing their emotions potentially, and so that's something that can be validated yeah, you can make a distinction between the way they feel and how they're expressing it, right, you?
Speaker 2:can be like, really not cool the way they're expressing it, but you can validate the way they feel, yeah. So if that person is screaming at you, you're a jerk, you're awful, I hate you, you don't have to say you're right, I'm a jerk.
Speaker 1:I'm validating that you think I'm a jerk and I'm a jerk. You could be like I understand that you're really, really upset right now. Yeah Right, that's valid. If you you know in this example with you know when your friend would go out with his female friends and she would get really, really upset and jealous, well, you don't have to apologize and say you're right, I shouldn't have gone out with my friends. But you could say it sounds like you think that me doing that is a sign that I might leave you or betray you.
Speaker 2:And if that's, if that's what you think that means, then you must be really scared right now yeah, you're using like advanced level validation of knowing and making a probably a pretty good um a guess about what, what that person is feeling, what Mary was feeling, right like you, you're, you're, you're feeling really jealous and and seeing this as a threat to our relationship and that could be really scary and overwhelming.
Speaker 2:I get that right. That's the validation, not like, yeah, you're totally right, I should never speak to another person again, right, right, um. The third step is ask, assess, um. This is just like a kind of like put on your therapist hat, if you can like ask what's going on, ask what the concerns are, ask for clarification. Um, yeah, just kind of like explore with that person so that that is actually like a therapy technique, to like being in the emotion with them, like Like, what is this like for you? What's going on inside? Let me in. What are the concerns? What are things that are the issues that are upsetting you? Right, it's?
Speaker 2:just like exploring the emotion, and then the next steps are brainstorm and and um get information about your role. This is this is a really important alternative to treating them like a kid, right, they're like overwhelmed and they don't know what to do. It's really tempting to like come in and tell them what to do, or right to take on that, like, don't worry, I can do, I could help you, let me tell you what to do and be like that parent. That could be soothing in the moment for both parties. Right, that could kind of make things easier, but it does.
Speaker 2:It is kind of weird, then, to be in that position as a lover, right to tell them what to do all the time, um, which makes the problem worse. So respecting that they have agency and gently letting them guide what happens. Right, and you are there to support that. So brainstorming is like if you don't know what to do, to help, like let's think of different ways, let's think of different solutions, let's's, let's. Let's kind of like brainstorm together what could, what could we do about this and what feels right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's skill development for the person with BPD to realizing oh, actually, when I'm highly emotional, it's not just that I'm useless and can't do anything and need somebody to rescue me. Maybe I need some hand, like, maybe I need somebody to sit with me and help me with this. But ultimately, oh, I can. Okay, I have my own ideas.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, I could go, I could, I could regulate through this method or yeah, yeah, it's like what the questions you get asked is like okay, what would you like? What would help you feel better? What would, what would be one step to solving this? What would? Let's talk about different ways that we can tackle this together, right, just like, really, gentle, let's brainstorm problem solve, of course, like you could hear that these steps really need you to be calm, right, because, like, flexibility about thinking about alternatives is really hard to do when you're upset.
Speaker 2:So just like you know, let's discuss different ways that we could handle this. Do you want to vent right now? Do you want me to go away? Do you want me to give you space, like you know, and then get information on your role and what you can plan, what you can plan on hearing about the outcome? So this is interesting. This, this is an interesting tip. I and I really like it because it introduces the idea that I am here to support your problem solving, but I'm I can't be the full solution, right? I can't be the rescuer here, I can't be the idealized. I'm to do everything for you and I'm, like this, the source of the solution. It's like do you what? The question I like to ask in this step is how can I help? What can I do? Do you want me to give you space? Do you want to tell me how things are going? Do you want to get in touch later about this, when right? So getting it's also helpful for you to get an idea of how you can help right.
Speaker 2:But it makes it very clear to both parties that, like I, have a very circumscribed role in this and you get to decide how how close I am to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, totally. Another thing I think could be helpful is if your partner is in treatment like DBT. I'm just thinking as a DBT group leader how nice it would be if some of their partners got a little bit involved, like went over the skills with them, learned the skills themselves. Um, you maybe tried them together. So it's like because it can be helpful. You know if your partner's spinning out to be like, okay, you know what might help, like what skills might help? What are you learning? What to kind of bolster that learning? I don't know, what do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, if you're, if you're lucky enough to have your BPD partner in in um treatment, then definitely, like, even it's okay to talk to the therapist, right, it's okay you could ask, you could ask this of your partner. You could be like, hey, I really want to help and support what you're doing. Can I talk to your therapist? And the therapist often is very happy to do so. They can't give you information about their treatment. Right, there's HIPAA laws. They have to protect your partner's confidentiality.
Speaker 2:But if there's like a united front on how do I help this person, that makes things a lot easier, right just some tips or even when to know when things get so intense or risky that you need to call the therapist or call, you know, emergency services.
Speaker 1:If we're all on the same page with the plan, yeah, that makes things like way easier yeah, yeah, and if your partner is willing to sign a release of information, and then you can set limits and boundaries around what you can discuss with the therapist and the therapist can do that with the patient.
Speaker 1:You know that could be another way to basically say, like I can call your therapist when I'm really afraid for your safety and we can talk about what to do. So I think that's. I think we we did a good overview there. I mean honestly for tips. You know there's only so many tips we can give because this is a such a complex disorder and if you are in a partnership like this, chances are you probably need professional guidance here. I mean because it's going to change day by day and it's going to hijack your own emotions and it can be difficult to know what to do every time. So I would highly recommend seeking treatment yourself. But, kimmy, in the meantime, what resources would you recommend?
Speaker 2:I mean to that point. This is why I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm coaching people who have loved ones with BPD. So if you want like individual help with this, with skills and ways to manage that relationship in your own sanity mental health, I'll put a link in the show notes where you can contact me. You can reach out to me at kibby, k-i-b-b-y, at kulamindcom, k-u-l-a-m-i-n-dcom, and I'll also link to some of the research and to this book, loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder by Dr Sherry Manning.
Speaker 1:Awesome. I know in the past we've also recommended the high conflict couple. Oh yes, really good one. Yeah, yeah, I'll put that there, okay, well, if you would like to support us in regulating our own emotions and soothing our fears of abandonment, give us that five star rating on Apple podcasts and Spotify and we will be very grateful. So we'll see you all in a couple weeks. By accessing this podcast, I acknowledge that the hosts of this podcast make no warranty, guarantee or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information featured in this podcast. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this Thank you service or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement.