A Little Help For Our Friends

Entitlement: Its Impact on Narcissism, Careers, and Relationships

• Jacqueline Trumbull and Kibby McMahon • Season 4 • Episode 114

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You deserve to have your dreams come true, to get what you want out of life, to always be treated like a queen!...or do you? In this episode, we talk about entitlement, the tendency to think you will get special treatment or resources no matter what. We discuss the pros and cons of entitlement, why it's more common these days, and tips for navigating its downsides. 

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Speaker 1:

Hey, little helpers, today we are doing a topic that we've been talking about forever just privately between Kibbe and me, so you wouldn't hear about it, but it kind of is a it's a symptom slash, I don't know process that relates to everyone. Everybody has this to some varying degree, and it also relates to our favorite topics like narcissism. So today we're going to be talking about entitlement. We've all felt we're entitled to things, and we may be entitled to things Kibbe and I will discuss that, because I think we might have a bit of a harsh opinion here. But when does this become a problem? What are the pitfalls of it? How can we make our way through it, and is it really true that this new generation is narcissistic and entitled? So those are the kinds of thoughts and questions we'll be hitting today. Kimmy, what's entitlement?

Speaker 2:

I'll read it right out from this paper called trade entitlement Okay, okay, so at least the way they're defining it is um a personality trait characterized by pervasive and enduring feelings of deservingness for more good services or special treatment than others, with or without any dutifully earned right to those benefits. So, it's basically saying that you feel like you are deserving of things, even though it's unclear if you earned them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's an interesting definition because, I mean, I agree the definition for the most part, but I'm wondering can we feel entitlement in situations where it's not clear that we don't deserve it? Like am I entitled to you treating me well?

Speaker 2:

I would say so, but I think that we just have a less negative connotation about it. Right, like I feel entitled to my human rights, but we don't say, ooh, that's entitlement, like the word we're talking about is is it's actually one trait within narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder, just feeling like you're deserving of special treatment or you're?

Speaker 2:

it's it's like this, this kind of like feeling that you are special and you deserve things that are reserved for special people, and this is regardless of whether you met any of the standards or criteria for earning that thing. So I think it has a little bit of a negative connotation, like you actually don't deserve it.

Speaker 1:

Wink, wink, you know yeah, I was reading, though, that there there's this idea of, like positive entitlement, where it's kind of crucial for a sense of self-esteem, um, of self-worth, and I I mean that wouldn't mesh with the idea that you think you deserve things that you haven't necessarily earned. It would measure the things that you think you deserve things that you haven't necessarily earned. It would mesh with the things that you think you deserve things that you haven't not. Again, do you deserve to be treated well? Do you deserve health care, or something like that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah Well, this is all weird because, as you could tell, it's all probably subjective, whether it's like the bad version of entitlement versus good. I think what we're talking about here is like in the past episodes we've talked about dysfunctional beliefs or attitudes about yourself or the world that are negative. Right Like I'm an imposter, I'm not deserving, I'm not worthy of love, and the problem with that is it doesn't match up with the reality, or at least like the reality around you. And it's just as problematic to have positive, distorted beliefs. Right Like I deserve awesome things, even though the world is telling you no, you don't.

Speaker 2:

Or you have to do extra things in order to earn it or you don't. You aren't any more deserving of this than everyone else who also believes it or earns it. You know.

Speaker 1:

There's like a little bit of a social contract in it, like what? How could I say that necessarily that I deserve for you to treat me Well? I feel like that only comes about because if you don't treat me well, then I would react. How do I say that necessarily that I deserve for you to treat me well? I feel like that only comes about because if you don't treat me well, then I would react. How do I deserve people who believe that we deserve health care? Well, that's only because a large group of people have made that decision that we should deserve something. And then they organize society around it. That's me going.

Speaker 2:

It's like expectations yeah, it's like your expectations of what you receive from the world right. And it's. It becomes a problem when that's not what the world gives you, because I had a friend who was displaying it.

Speaker 1:

She gave me permission to talk about this and this friend was very unhappy. And it's interesting that when somebody believes that they deserve a lot, then they wind up unhappy. And I started thinking about how entitlement carries with it a big problem. If you think that you deserve certain things from the world, um, or from somebody else, then you run into big problems immediately. If you don't get it, either there's something wrong with the world or there's something wrong with the person you wanted it from, or there's something wrong with you.

Speaker 1:

But in an existential crisis, sort of way, like wait, but I believed I deserved this, and if I didn't get it, then what does that mean? Like is my sense of self threatened. And then what does that mean? Like is my sense of self threatened? And we do see in the research that ego threat is a pitfall, that basically, when entitled people don't get what they want, they experience disappointment, obviously, but they experience a real threat to their ego, which is just an interesting concept. You know it's so, instead of not getting something that you want and being able to say, oh well, sometimes the world works that way, you know it's like no, something has to be wrong for that to have happened. Something has to be wrong with me, or with the world, or with a person.

Speaker 2:

And that's a really rough way to live. Yeah, what was your friend describing in terms of what he or she felt entitled to or what how they respond to it?

Speaker 1:

Career, success and behavior from their partner.

Speaker 2:

Like what.

Speaker 1:

So imagine that you are in a very competitive industry and you technically have the skills to succeed in that industry.

Speaker 1:

So let's pick I don't know that school or something like medicine, um, and let's say like, actually, you're trying to get into like a fellowship that is really specific and your resume looks just as good as everybody else's, your IQ is just as good as everybody else's, your talent is just as good, but you don't get it and you repeatedly receive rejections and it's like, well, I feel I feel I deserve this, I do deserve, like I'm just as good, so why am I not getting it? And now that I mean disappointment makes complete sense. But there and we know this from the research there's a rise of real hostility when this happens, because it's like this is unfair, is unfair and that's it. So it's disappointment, ego, threat and a sense of injustice that we see. It really mirrors the just world hypothesis where good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people. This is felt like a little trauma, like if a bad thing happened to me then now I'm suddenly having like a little bit of a trauma response.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I was thinking of just world hypothesis when you were talking about it like a world that is just would give me the things that I thought I deserve, right, like um, yeah, and I like I am definitely like I try to be humble, but there's so many times that I've been entitled to like I think the last time I really felt like a strong sense of entitlement was when I finished, you know, all the training this wasn't even that long ago finished all my training, worked really hard, and then were was applying to different companies right, the digital mental health companies and with some varying success, like I did actually get some jobs and stuff, but it wasn't as easy as I thought it would be and it threw me into like an existential crisis, right, because I was just like, oh, I deserve, like I deserve to at least get an interview at these places.

Speaker 2:

My God, like I work so hard, especially for, you know, someone in my stage, and blah, blah, blah, and I felt entitled to at least get attention, you know, from recruiters or whatever for that. But I wasn't taking into account how stiff, how much, the competition was in the market at the time. The economy was bad and also there's a lot of really good people out there, right, and I remember that that threw me into such a questioning of my whole self worth, right, like, is anything I did worth it? Am I even this whole time I thought I was smart or hardworking or accomplished? Was I just lying to myself, right, this kind of like the sad, you know, the sad disappointment that you were describing?

Speaker 1:

It really challenged, like the way I saw myself in the world between, um, being entitled to something and feeling like you deserve it but you're not entitled to it. Like feeling like you could get it and you've done everything you can to get it, and so, therefore, it would make sense to get it, but not, but not actually feeling like if you don't get it, something is wrong with the world. You know what I mean. Like if you're able to just say, well, you know, I really want this and I'm doing everything I can to get it, but I can't control things that way. Like I can't control things just with my wishes, or just I can't make things be how I want them to be. So then, you know, if I get rejected, it's like okay, well, this is a multivariate problem, not a I don't know bivariate problem. The world and me. You see all the context.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think what you're saying is like the healthy way to deal with a lot of stuff is the resilience of learning and taking in the reality of well, I thought I was going to get a job easily, but then I really didn't, and so let me learn why and like adapt. But when we talk about entitlement, we're talking about like the pathological right. The bad type with narcissism is like um, it's self, it's self-fulfilling, it's like this you, you almost can't deal with the disappointment of having your expectations of yourself or the world be met. Right like I didn't get what I wanted. Yeah, and it gets to. Instead of like you, it, instead of being confined to that situation, that disappointment grows to a bigger sense of like that. That could lead to you know different ways that people cope with that, which is self enhancement. Right Like I do deserve these things. I am worthy, right. Or the opposite I'm worthless, right. So it's like it's interesting to think that how it looks on a pathological level is like this self-fulfilling prophecy or is it?

Speaker 2:

no, just at least a cycle of like I think I'm awesome, I deserve everything. Oh my gosh, I didn't. That's so painful. I'm questioning everything. That is so painful that I need to reassure myself in the way I know how, which is yeah, say how awesome I am yeah and think it's.

Speaker 1:

I think it could be well illustrated in an interpersonal situation, a healthy way. So if you are with somebody who doesn't treat you in like, let's say there's like an isolated incident doesn't treat you how you would like to be treated, in that instance a healthy approach might be huh, I need to figure out what went on in that situation so that I can make sure it doesn't happen again. So like, for instance, were they unaware of what I wanted? Um, is there a skills deficit here? Did I not ask for what I wanted? Um, was I a people pleaser? Was that you know, like, what are the different components? And then those are what I tackle.

Speaker 1:

So I might say hey, could you treat me differently next time, um, or I might set a boundary, or, um, you know I might. Or or like, maybe I wasn't treated well in an instant because I didn't treat them well, right, and so I didn't get a good response. And so then I might say say, okay, I actually need to up my kindness or get, or thoughtfulness, whatever the case may be. An entitled way of responding would be like wait, I deserve them to treat me in a specific way. I didn't get that. That means there's something wrong with them or there's something wrong with me, but it's not very specific, right? And so then it's like, okay, well, then I need to make myself feel better through self-enhancement, so I'm going to kind of like like say a bunch of stuff to make me feel more powerful, or I need to punish them. So then you punish them, and then they're probably not going to treat you better after that, right? So then now you're in a downward cycle.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Maybe they'll treat you better momentarily, like in the short term, out of fear, but over time it pushes them away.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's almost kind of like the classic narcissist pattern of then devaluing that other person. Like, once they get the hit of like reality, they devalue the other person or they um, and they're I don't need them, they're garbage. I'm amazing, right, I deserve. I think it's. It's tricky because, even as we're talking about this, from like going into like the dating and interpersonal aspect, there is just so much, there's so much language around it that, yeah, I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I really I'm starting to get sick of hearing things on. You know, the social media, that's like. You know, make sure they treat you like a queen. You deserve it, you deserve the world, you're amazing and I and I'm maybe just because I'm biased and I'm watching.

Speaker 2:

I watch so much reality tv now, thanks to you. I'm gonna blame you for that.

Speaker 2:

You were watching it way before I came along yeah, your fault, um, but you know it's like these people are like no, I, I deserve better. And it's really tough to say that's right or wrong, if that's entitlement or just like healthy form of confidence, because there are many cases where I'm like I mean, sure, we all deserve love and we all deserve to be treated well, deserve love and we all deserve to be treated well. But like sometimes it's said or thought of when you know the guy doesn't call you back or like you know, they are angry with you or something and it's like, first of all, are we, were you entitled for you know?

Speaker 2:

to them responding the way that you want them to like just because they didn't like you, does that mean you know? But to like just because they didn't like you, does that mean you know. But also like. Sometimes those people do say like I deserve to be a queen, or actually not that nice to the other person too.

Speaker 1:

So you know what I mean. Like.

Speaker 2:

So it's just like it's just like I'm sad and disappointed that that person didn't like call me or they broke up with me or whatever Does that have to lead to? Like I'm amazing and special and deserve everything and this guy is garbage. Like, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1:

Like yeah, part of it is that I think deserve is an unhelpful concept. It's super vague and what does it even mean? Like I deserve to be treated like a queen, okay. Does everybody need to treat you like a queen? Because then you actually would be a queen and that you're. We know that you're not right. So like okay. So then you can't just you can't just say I deserve to be treated like a queen and then everybody magically treats you like a queen.

Speaker 1:

You have to do things to make that happen. You have to. You have to go through the world and scan its participants and say, okay, that's a nice person, that's the person who's likely to treat me well. And then you have to find that person and then you have to treat them well so they treat you well. And you have to set a bunch of boundaries when they don't treat you well and you have to step up your game again so that they feel they want to treat you well.

Speaker 1:

Like it it deserve doesn't really have anything to do with anything. That's a magical thinking kind of thing that just by virtue of me existing, I deserve certain things. Now you can say I don't deserve to be treated poorly, I guess, but that also doesn't really mean it. It's like, okay, well, if you're treating me poorly, then I have to leave, I have to do something about it yet again. I can't just say I don't deserve it, because it just doesn't. You know what I mean. It doesn't mean anything Like if you want to be treated well, then figure out the circumstances in which you'll be treated well and do that Well.

Speaker 2:

then what about people? What about when we say, yeah, you deserve love, or you deserve to be loved, which now I'm saying that aloud and I fully believe that, even though all the things that we just said are the opposite?

Speaker 1:

right Like if you work hard, you deserve opportunities. Yeah, Right.

Speaker 1:

Well, yeah, I don't know that. I do believe in that. That's why I said that I had kind of a harsh. I said we had a harsh view on this, but I don't know what your view is. I mean, I think when I say that I mean something akin to like you have a personality configuration that is compatible with being loved, I don't know. Like you are as deserving of love as anybody else is. There's no reason you wouldn't deserve. Do you know what I mean? Like it, but it's not like. It's not like you are, um, like an anointed with the god-given right. Oh, okay, you know what I think.

Speaker 2:

I think what's the problem with entitlement that we're talking about is that if we're phrasing it like, this is a social contract, I work hard, I should get a job, I am a decent person, I deserve to be loved right, these are all like transactions, right, this is a contract. And if it's, if you expect to get those goodies without having to do your part of that contract, that's the dysfunctional part, right? It's like, yeah, if you work really hard, you, you probably deserved, you know, some kind of reward for that work. Right, like, at least if you were told that. Right, if, like, if you show up to work, you deserve your paycheck.

Speaker 1:

But that also rests on the premise that the work you are doing is wanted by other people. I could work really, really hard at making stained glass pictures of I don't know something stupid. I could make the best stained glass pictures of like feces. But that doesn't mean that I deserve anybody to buy that, because it's not very.

Speaker 2:

Right, I guess what's missing there is you don't know the other side of that contract, right? Like you're like, oh, if someone came to you and said I love stained glass windows and I think that if you really work hard and make my house look beautiful with this art, then I will pay you X amount of dollars and I'd praise you on social media, Then if you do it and do your part. You would be entitled to that expectation.

Speaker 1:

Well, great that other person set up an expectation. Sure.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, to like. Well, right, that other person set up an expectation, yeah, so I guess it's like it's about expectations and knowing what those expectations are like. Are your expectations accurate and did you do your part to meet those expectations? Right, and with narcissism? It's not true, it's you know, with people who have narcissism it's like, um, just I, yeah, I am anointed, I'm born special right and I deserve these things regardless of what I do, right, so I don't have to do any part to it.

Speaker 2:

I'm just I should get, I should receive, regardless what I do right.

Speaker 1:

Well, I think that's what's annoying about the social media memes, because they're not saying and this is why, like, sometimes I feel pressure to turn my Instagram into like a therapy Instagram but I'm like, what? What useful thing could I possibly say in like six words? That would fit into a square. If you enter into a social contract with a guy that you find out of all of the subjects in the earth because you realize that that would be somebody who would likely treat you well, and then you treat them well in response, and then you talk to each other about your expectations and then you meet those expectations, then you should be treated like a queen.

Speaker 2:

That will go viral. Thank you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think these are not things that people want to hear right, like I think that people just want to hear that they deserve to be treated like a queen, no matter what, and I think, yeah, it's. This entitlement question is interesting because the research shows especially this there's one researcher, jean Twenge I think I'm saying her name right, I'm not sure, but I think so T-W-E-N-G-E, who does all this research showing that the earlier, the younger generations now are much higher in measures of narcissism and especially entitlement. Yeah, in prepping for this episode, I was reading the book by Gene Twenge, the Narcissism Epidemic Living in the Age of Entitlement. What a good title. And it's based on a lot of good research showing that younger kids are more entitled, right, and I'm like an old millennial I don't even know where I fall, I think I'm an old millennial and us 38-year-olds talk about how, when you, you know a lot of the younger folk getting into the you know the job market, right or interviews, they come across really entitled.

Speaker 2:

I have a friend who was trying to hire an intern or a junior associate or whatever in her company and kids these days. They went into the interview asking immediately for how much vacation can they get? They want to start their job at a certain time because they're going to Paris next week and they don't want to interfere with their, their vacation. Um, they were demanding like they could work from. They could work from home whenever they want. Um, oh my god, there was even one candidate she was talking about that said that she just doesn't believe in cover letters, so she didn't make a cover letter, even though that was part of the application. She wrote, like I don't believe in cover letters, so she didn't make a cover letter, even though that was part of the application. She wrote, like I don't believe in cover letters, so I'm not going to submit this. And so clearly that person didn't get interviewed.

Speaker 1:

What does it mean to not believe in a requirement set by the place?

Speaker 2:

that you're trying to get a job from.

Speaker 2:

I'll give another other example. I was a TA for a class, for a psychology class, and someone in the class I had to proctor an exam and someone in the class asked if they could take the exam not on Friday when it was scheduled, but on Monday. And I was like, no, the exam is Friday. And she said, yeah, but there's a storm coming through and I really would like to drive home early. And I was blown away. I, like back in college, I would never ask the professor or the TA to take the exam when I want to.

Speaker 2:

And then you know what she complained? She got so mad. She complained to the professor who made me proctor as an exam for her on the day that she wanted.

Speaker 1:

That's unbelievable. Yeah, entitled grad school. We had to do a personality assessment on like a freshman at Duke and she was she's super sweet, but she was like she. She was like college is so much harder because, like you know, back in high school if I came in late because I was like talking to my mom on the phone, I'd be like, yeah, sorry, I was talking to my mom on the phone, but here they're like to my mom on the phone, I'd be like, yeah, sorry, I was talking to my mom on the phone, but here they're like get off your phone.

Speaker 2:

That's hard.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and she was like and like back in high school, like if I missed a day because I was protesting, like in a protest, or like it was like in high school. Apparently, activism counts as legitimate excuse to not be in school.

Speaker 2:

Uh huh.

Speaker 1:

And in college they were like no, sorry, you stopped taking the class.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, which I mean I?

Speaker 1:

kind of surprised. I feel like in about two or three weeks Duke's going to change its policy on that. Oh my gosh, go protest.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Um, yeah, that's I mean, that's just, it's all. It is always a growing phase. When you go from, let's say, high school to college or another life change and the things that you thought were part of the contract. Like, you do your part, they do their part. I'm on the phone with my mom, I could come in late, everyone's okay with it and then to have to shift to a new set of expectations, that sucks and that's hard and it's frustrating and whatever, but the entitlement kicks in. When you just refuse to acknowledge that the contract has changed. Right, it's like yeah, no, I deserve to be that the contract has changed right.

Speaker 2:

It's like yeah, no, I deserve to be on the phone yeah, I mean, I like, I don't.

Speaker 1:

I'm like, is it even their fault if the high school teachers are allowing this, or did it happen because somehow there was a culture created where you could call and complain about every fucking thing?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. And actually my sister Rachel. She was sending some questions about entitlement before we started and one of her questions was like how does this come about? Right, is it? Is this actually a problem in the younger generations? Is someone born with this? And the research, at least in this book, narcissism Epidemic reviews that the parenting styles have changed a lot, right.

Speaker 2:

And that's a huge issue and also the culture. So the parenting styles that lead to entitlement, as you can imagine, are parents who are helicopter parents and who are overindulging, overpraising, so very involved, very enmeshed, want to protect the kid from any kind of disappointment or pain or failure and also praise and tell their kid that they are special, no matter what.

Speaker 2:

Right, like focusing on competition and winning and doing that through specialness. Right you are, you are amazing, you're the best you deserve. You. You're so talented, you're so smart, you're going to, you're going to be famous one day. Right, and that will lead to a sense of like oh, just because I'm me, the world is going to give me this stuff.

Speaker 1:

Right, it sets up that expectation yeah, I would imagine also like, okay, the boomer, well, okay, I'm trying to think like 100 years ago people were probably a lot less entitled because they went through a lot more hardship. Yeah, I would. I would think it would be difficult to be entitled after you had lived through World War II, where it's like, wow, things could get worse.

Speaker 2:

There's no sense of expectation of good things from the world because it went through such a hard time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and nothing that bad has happened to white people in a pretty long time. I mean 9-11, but that only happened to a small segment and then there was no draft. So really since Vietnam, I mean I don't know there hasn't been a Great Depression. There was a recession, I don't know. I think when the world becomes easy, you expect it to continue to be easy. I don't know.

Speaker 2:

I think, when the world becomes easy, you expect it to continue to be easy. Yeah, and for everyone else to treat you like your parents did, which these parents treat them like. It's my job to remind you that you're amazing and also to protect you from things that you don't like, and the book was talking about this difference.

Speaker 2:

I mean, even becoming a parent. I could see this difference because when you know people at a parent's age talk about the way they were parented or parented, it was way more like the parent's world. The adult's world was the king, right? And then the kids had to obey and be polite and sit still and be quiet and they had to, like, conform to the, the authority figures. But now parents are a lot more hesitant to be authority figures. They want to be like friends and supporters and whatever. They don't want to be like. No, you're actually not that special. Work harder, right?

Speaker 2:

Oh, that sounds so awful and I could even see it in my, in myself, where my little two year old who sometimes he's just a little asshole like, sometimes, like I'm sitting in a chair and he will come over and push me and say in Chinese, I sit here, right, and then it's, you know. And then I, since I want to seem like a nice, you know, caring parent okay, thank you for asserting your needs and thank God Alex reminds me. Like, no, I'm sitting here. What do you kick me out of my chair? So you'd see that, like we're so, we're just so into building a healthy sense of self-esteem that we might be overcorrecting and just telling these kids that they could actually like the world is their oyster and they could boss us around and they deserve compliant behavior from the other side.

Speaker 1:

Well, the problem is that this doesn't create a healthy sense of self-esteem.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

Because nothing bad can happen to you or you crumble. It's like people who love control are the people who are the least in control. That I know because you put all of your resources up front. You're like if I can make the situation be exactly how I want and need it to be, then everything will be okay. And it's like okay, well, the world doesn't work that way, so what happens when, inevitably, it doesn't go your way? Then you have no resources in coping. And it's the same way, right, like if you put all of your resources into thinking you're awesome and to somehow building a narrative about yourself that's awesome and then inevitably it gets disbanded, then you have no actual self-esteem to say, because self-esteem comes from. I know I can pick myself up again.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I hate slash, love to bring up my ex again. It's been a while, but here I go. See, he was pretty entitled. I mean, this is my perception, of course he was pretty entitled I mean, this is my perception, of course.

Speaker 2:

Um, I remember. I mean there were some real parts with being disappointed that the career that you worked so hard for didn't turn out to be as great and fulfilling as you thought it would be. Um, then, when he quit it and then like wasn't working for a while it was, it was like he, he couldn't shake. It's almost like the entitlement was crippling because he kept saying I work so hard, I'm a doctor, why am I not getting other jobs?

Speaker 2:

Why aren't people offering me a higher pay? Why, you know? Someone said I'm naturally like. I've been told that I'm naturally talented and smart all my life. Like why do I have to now work for the benefits that I thought right? Like you know, for example, he was like looking for other jobs and being like furious Not just disappointed, but just like crippled that they weren't offering him what he thought he should get at this stage, even though he was applying in a different field, should get at this stage, even though he was applying in a different field.

Speaker 2:

And so in my head I kept being like because you're not doing your part of the social contract, you're not working in that field, you haven't worked in that field to get there, or you know, you didn't. You know, just because you're like naturally talented doesn't mean people are just going to shower you with opportunities, Like you know it just sucks. I get it, it sucks. But also he just crumpled and like would be paralyzed by that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think that I'm actually like thinking about careers now, where entitlement is probably a problem because of okay, so I'm thinking of the arts and medicine and maybe something like banking um, for two different reasons. So, with medicine and I see this in my patients it's not that I see super entitled patients, but what I do see a lot of time are doctors who wind up disappointed in their careers, and I see them because that's who comes in for therapy. But I think what happens is that being a doctor is so grueling that the way they attract people is through false promises, like you will be respected by everyone, and that's sort of true, but you're not going to be respected by the people in the hospital, like by the other doctors. Necessarily, you will make a ton of money, and that's true, but you have to pay a shitload in debt first. You will be, you will love this profession so much because it will give you this never ending sense that you have reached the apex of society, that you are worthy of respect, that you are a certain kind of person. And then they start the work and they're like oh my God, I work all the time and this sucks and I'm really tired, and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So that is, they're kind of set up by, they're kind of like lured into a false social contract.

Speaker 1:

And then with the arts, I think this thing happens, where people often go into the arts because they believe in following their passion and fulfillment, which is beautiful. But the problem is we live in capitalism, not in a world that runs on passion, fulfillment. So again, like I always wanted to write a novel, and that's great, I can totally write a novel and I can write an incredible novel I mean not me necessarily, but that doesn't mean that people are going to buy it. And then if I'm then saying like, well, the world is wrong because they like all this commercial trash and they don't like me, then it's like, well, sorry, that's how it is, you know, like you weren't entitled to having your book bought by other people, even if it's really good, mm-hmm. So I don't know, like, realizing the system that you're in, accepting reality, which we'll talk about as the antidote, really that's super important. And I just think people are set up in various ways to like, think that reality is different than what it is.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, even as you're talking about the, as we both were talking about the medical field, it's like, yeah, sometimes these fields get a lot of labor from young eager, you know professionals. It's also in law, it's also in banking, it's in a lot of different fields Academia, big one, right, where they give you this promise of you know, you could have this great position if you work your ass off and pay your dues.

Speaker 1:

And basically it results in you outsourcing your self-esteem.

Speaker 2:

You get hospital, you give me my self-esteem and I'll be a workhorse for you. And then you're like wait, this isn your sense of worth in society overall. Not just am I going to get a good job, but am I going to be seen as a worthy person in society. My sense of purpose will be fulfilled right. And then there's the other part of like. Not only are they probably setting up these false expectations, these false hopes, but then the world has changed where in medicine, if you were a doctor whatever it is like 30 years ago, it's probably awesome in many ways, like there was more, you got more pay and stuff like that. Now the health care system makes that harder to like earn a good living or to work in reasonable hours and stuff like that. So the the expectations did not match up with the current reality, and that, of course, that's. I feel like that's like understandable entitlement.

Speaker 2:

Like you, thought you were entitled to a certain kind of reward for all of your hard work. And then you didn't get it. But then the dysfunctional part is when you then defend from the pain of that with more entitlement.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I wonder if there's any more identification with the career in the newer generations or if that's going down. I just know like a lot. So a study I was looking at said that there is pretty high entitlement in like academically successful people. And I know I definitely grew up in a family where, like you're where you went to college determined your self-esteem. That meant you were successful, you know that meant you were above criticism. And then what you you know, like how much money you made and what in my family is mostly like the more intellectual field you can go in, the better and that's how we'll give you respect. And so you have this expectation that your self-esteem will come when you attain a certain thing. And that's just not, that's just not a good setup and that's just not, that's just not a good setup.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's probably all the tricky part of entitlement and narcissism is like the sense of self-worth tied into what you get right Like if you know it's. It's one. It's one level to be like, yeah, when you go to college matters and that's going to be huge. But one thing is like how good are you as a person based on where you're going to get in?

Speaker 2:

I feel like also, I've had a couple of patients with narcissistic personality disorders and I feel like it's so tricky to tell what the right thing for them would have been, because a lot of them were as quote-unquote special as they were told right they're like exceptionally smart or exceptionally beautiful or really talented, right right, like I've seen some that were like that were really amazing artists, right, and so is it wrong for them to believe that, because of their special gifts, that they thought they would get the rewards from the world. A lot of them, the ones that I worked with, didn't, and they were like living off of their parents or they were somewhere else because, and they almost like fell below what they thought they were entitled to because they couldn't deal with the reality of going out in the world and their natural gifts were not enough.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, as they were told, they actually had to work hard. Or there were many, many other people who are just as gifted. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, there was one that was like living in, like that, but they were unemployed, living in their partner's home, um, on their couch, and even though they were like spectacularly smart and really accomplished up to up till that point.

Speaker 2:

They just couldn't deal with the blowback from the world that that wasn't them being born and them being themselves was not enough yeah, I mean, well, I, you know, a lot of times, growing up, you're it.

Speaker 1:

The world is presented to you that way, like you see movies, you know, and the people in the movies are beautiful and then therefore they get a beautiful partner. But you don't see like the sacrifices entailed the fact that you have to understand the other things that are involved in getting a beautiful partner, but you don't see like the sacrifices entailed the fact that you have to understand the other things that are involved in getting a wonderful partner. Um and like, being smart, you know, just means that you are ordained with just success. All you need for success is to be smart, and it's like, no, you have to figure out what the world wants. All you need for success is to be smart. It's like, no, you have to figure out what the world wants.

Speaker 1:

You know, how will your like, first of all, smart in in what? Um, nobody's smart in absolutely everything. So it's like, okay, how do you match your smart to what the world needs? That's the other part. So that's again, that's a social contract. So, yeah, I mean, it sucks sometimes when you're like I have all these natural gifts.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, why? Yeah, and it just it. It leads to a lot of like uncertainty and I, you know as much as we were like bashing people who might be to feel you know, who have this entitlement. But it's also kind of like a way to be to have the world be predictable. Right, like I'm entitled to, like good treatment and good opportunities if I work hard, like that's. At least that sets up a prediction for the future. Right, like it sets up like what am I doing now based on what I think I'll get out of it in like 10 to 20 years? And you know, without that, the way that we're talking about, like don't have any expectations, it's also pretty terrifying. Yeah, like nothing matters.

Speaker 2:

Right, like I don't you know is does hard work, does being gifted, does what? What actually will get you? Quote, quote entitled to the things that you want yeah, and there's probably some of entitlement.

Speaker 1:

That's healthy or not healthy, but like useful, like um, you know my much earlier ex. You know he went out in the world. He was extremely smart and he was extremely good looking and he wanted to be a rich entrepreneur and that's like very difficult to just be, you know. I mean you have to like, and he he did work really hard, but there was probably part of him and I'm convinced he's a narcissist that just, I don't know, just thought he could thought that that was what the world would give him. But I don't know, but it's like, okay, but then he also, he also made it happen.

Speaker 1:

So I don't know if is it entitlement or is it or is it just. It's just that you would think, like, looking out at the landscape of the world, that you would accept reality, that the odds are extremely slim, and then you would make the decision like, yeah, I'm, because I probably can't control this, like I can be as smart as I want to be and I can work as hard as I want to be, but that doesn't mean this is going to come to me. So there was something in him that said, yeah, I'm going to do it anyway, and I don't know, maybe that's just grandiosity, I mean, maybe that's not entitlement, I mean that's just like really believing in yourself, and he should have.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think. I don't think we're strangers to the idea that some of this stuff that we say is like pathological or bad can be useful in some context. Right, everything can. And you see that yeah, you're talking about entrepreneurship. I see that all the time in the startup world, where you know the reality is that you're beaten down a lot, you get a lot of objections.

Speaker 2:

You got to get a lot of no's, got treated like you don't deserve or you're not going to get anything, and there's got to be some level of entitlement to keep going. In spite of that, you have to be like I'm just going to believe that I have the capabilities and I deserve to. You know, like get my company going or get like people to believe in me or whatever, and then that almost kind of like delusional narcissism actually helps in those environments.

Speaker 1:

I'm trying to figure out if that's entitlement or if it's just. Yeah, I don't know what it is, I don't know.

Speaker 2:

I don't know. Yeah, I didn't like. There's a lot of people who are just, you know that I've met in this world who are like, yeah, I'm going to be a, you know, obviously, when I become super rich, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, how can you think that that is something you just deserve, like, if you, you know, but that belief might be. It all depends on what happens when that person doesn't get what they want, although I'm split because sometimes, when they get rejected, they stick to that self-enhancement.

Speaker 2:

It's because I'm amazing and they're a jerk and they don't get me, and I'm going to keep going and I am so envious of that because that looks so protective than the way I react to it. I'm like what's wrong with me? They saw how I react to it. I'm like what's wrong with me, they saw how I'm not worthy and it feels a lot worse than what I see other people do. It's like, yeah, that's because they don't, they, they're idiots. Amazing, that looks nicer.

Speaker 1:

Entitlement looks nicer. Yeah, I guess, when you can just blame it on other people until you rise to the top, then maybe that would be nice, but it's very fragile, very, very, very fragile. So we should probably talk about how to make our way out of this trap. Oh yeah, the end, no, the antidotes are there, and I'm actually really proud of my friend because she's been very active about seeking these out. Um, you know, she suffered a big loss of a breakup and that sort of supercharged her. I mean, she sort of started the journey before that. But um, I think, you know, sometimes when you can see the consequences of a mindset or behavior, then it becomes too pricey to keep going with it. And so I talked to her about what has been helpful for her, and it's a lot of the stuff that we could probably guess.

Speaker 1:

Um, she said so the first thing she kind of mentioned was something like opposite action. So, um, she would be very envious of other people, which is also kind of a side effect of entitlement. You know, when you don't get what you want, it's like well then, what's what's wrong with me? This isn't right, and it happened for another person. How dare that be? What happened happened. Like. That doesn't make any sense. Now I have to shit on them, right? Actually, it's just envy. And so she started acting opposite by like. When a friend would get something that she wanted and she'd feel that twinge of like no, I want that, which listen, like, like that's super common she'll say out loud um, compliments about that person. So, um, basically being like, they're so talented, I'm so happy for them. They deserve this. Like, it's a great thing that happened.

Speaker 1:

Now that might not sink in immediately, um, I don't know how that's going for her, necessarily, but it is being behaviorally opposite to what she was doing before nice. Yeah, um, she also says it out loud so that she kind of gets out of her head and into the world a little bit more. So she discovered that being in her head all the time it was a trap and actually just getting out of her head and living her life was helpful. She quit doing, she quit smoking weed because I mean basically like drugs are an escape behavior and avoidance behavior, right. So they help you avoid the painful emotions that come from feeling entitled and not getting what you want or other negative emotions, right. And so her basically having to rip away that comfort was a way of her confronting what was actually going on in reality in her own mind and having to sit with that discomfort, um.

Speaker 1:

And then she said exploration of the dharma is helping me be more accepting, and I find that acceptance is helping me be less entitled, like removing some narrative drive from my life and dealing with a tetris piece that happens to be falling. Instead of raging about the tetris piece I would rather have she's Buddhist now, baby. So you know, I mean, we talk about meditation in therapy all the time, but we're also DBT people and that is heavily influenced by Zen, buddhism, and a lot of it is about accepting reality and saying, like I'm going to, um, like she said, like whatever piece is falling right now, I'm not going to just be thinking about the piece I'd rather have. I'm going to take the piece I have and work with it, and I know she's been practicing a ton of gratitude.

Speaker 1:

So really like specifically looking out in the world and saying, oh, like this is something that brings me peace right now, this is something that brings me bliss, this is something that gives me beauty, like, and that is just broadening the frame, because when you're stuck in entitlement, your frame is very small. It's like this certain set, this very narrow set of circumstances has to happen in order for me to be happy and at peace. And broadening and actually saying, actually wait, there are all sorts of things in the environment that bring me peace, that bring me happiness, that I can be grateful for. That switches from kind of a negative schema to a uh, just a broader one. Mm-hmm, yeah, I love those. That's great.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I would add um like a healthy acceptance of disappointment, right, like if you expect and you felt entitled to special treatment and you didn't get it, for whatever reason, if you're wrong, the circumstances, whatever the reason, it sucks and just to sit with the pain of that, which is difficult. I don't mean make it so big like I did, um that you question and feel ashamed about your whole self, or like the whole prospect of the world right, like if I didn't get this and nothing matters or nothing is fair.

Speaker 2:

um, but just keep it circumscribed and be like I didn't get what I thought I was going to at this moment and that really that hurts a lot. And then let that emotion live like, sit with it. Let it live, Don't let it color everything you're seeing.

Speaker 2:

And then after that you sit with that emotion and it kind of you know subsides. After that you sit with that emotion and it kind of you know subsides, you could be like, okay, what did I learn from that then? Is this field that I'm in like just way more competitive than I thought? Right, that happens, you know, like a lot of people in the arts feel like that now, where people who are kind of were entitled to be working in the industry, in the, you know, entertainment industry, like it's just it's a hard time now.

Speaker 2:

So yeah just kind of like opening your eyes and be like what can I learn from that? Is this? You know now that this is a social contract. Now let me figure out what I'm actually, like, entitled to. If I work hard, will I get a job. If I date this person, will they call me back? And if not, then deal with that reality in a way that leans to acceptance, like learn from it, learn like then, what are you going to do differently?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think there's a really important piece here that when you are leaning on entitlement, you are telling yourself a story that life can only go one way or you're lost. If you don't get into medical school, then you're worthless, like then life will never be okay again. If you don't wind up with a specific person, then what's the point? Then, like, something's horribly wrong with the world. There's no like, it's no safety. And I think because when you like, when you say, like I'm entitled to get into med school, and then it doesn't happen, and then your world crumbles, there's's some, there's a lie in there telling you like you'll never, this won't, nothing's okay then, and actually being able to say you know, life has a way of unfolding, with all sorts of mysteries and gifts and pitfalls and hardships, and being curious about that, instead of blocking it, saying like, okay, this didn't happen.

Speaker 1:

So now I'm turning with warmth and curiosity to what might, what do you have in store for me next if this wasn't it? Because I imagine the people who are entitled are very fearful and it's and this is a way to cover that fear no, no, I have nothing to be afraid of. I'm so awesome, I'm going to get it just because I'm so awesome, I deserve it, um and so and so yeah, kind of opening with like, no, I'm going to be curious about this world. I'm going to, I'm going to, instead of be somebody who's just born into this world and has to work a certain way for me, be like what I'm a tourist on this, on this strange planet called planet Earth. What am I going to discover while I'm here? It's just a very different outlook.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, shifting your mindset to more, more curiosity. Curiosity than like prescribed this has got to happen exactly, being very rule driven.

Speaker 2:

And then also this is the thing that's hard for narcissists in general and hard for everyone is to like, really look at your contributions right. Like if this is a contract that we're talking about, I do this, then I'm entitled to the thing that you're going to give me for that right, I'm going to give you a dollar, you give me an apple. Then really think about whether you did your part, even if it's different than what you thought it was right. Like if I, you know, if I just had an amazing singing talent, like I'm just such a good singer, does that mean I'm going to have a great singing career? You know, I feel maybe entitled to that. That's not true. I have an okay singing voice, but I you know, but I'm also.

Speaker 2:

You also have to say like, well, actually, but then it takes a lot of hard work and networking. Yeah, so the talent is one piece of it, and I have all this other work and I think that the entitlement that I hate when I see it, is when someone's confronted with that reality, like yeah, you're special and gifted and also it takes this level of work and these degrees and these many years and low pay, or like here's what you need to do to get there.

Speaker 2:

And then someone goes, oh, I don't want that, and then just like, like it just drowns in the. You know the unfairness of it all.

Speaker 2:

And it's just like OK, fine, if that's not what you want to do, that's OK, but then you choose to not have that expectation that you should get the goodies anyway. This is also in the Narcissistic Epidemic book, but there is research showing that if someone who has high entitlement in narcissism there's these cool studies where participants are made to think that they're hurting someone else, which is crazy, research can be crazy. They're basically making like noises that they think are going to hurt someone else Great study.

Speaker 2:

And narcissists tend to do that more. They tend to be like okay with hurting other people. But if they learn, if they the study showed that if they think that that person that they're hurting is more similar to them than dissimilar, they're less likely to be aggressive. So the tip there is lean more into thinking about how other people are like you, right.

Speaker 2:

Like think about your common humanity, not like I'm special so I deserve things over other people. Right, like that? I think that is isolate entitlement. Yeah, that I entitled specialness is like I should be above other people. I should get things that no one else gets.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

But if you focus on like no, we are all humans together, we all deserve love and you know safety and things like that, and we all experience pain of this, and to kind of look at the common humanity instead of, why are you poking out of the crowd? That also helps.

Speaker 1:

I like that, I like that. Acceptance and commitment therapy I would think would be pretty helpful for entitlement in general. Yeah, so if, like, you feel like you're suffering this or somebody else is, then and also there are plenty of other use cases for for act and so don't feel like this is like, oh my God, I'm an actor, I need to act. This much to mean I have an entitlement complex.

Speaker 1:

Um, I think that a like, I think entitlement is a lot sneakier than we think. Like, I think we all have been actually living with and working through various levels of entitlement without realizing that we are and that's a problem, and recognizing that that's what's going on takes a lot of courage. But, um, acceptance and commitment therapy is really about accepting reality as it is, learning to sit with difficult emotions, learning that you don't have to control everything, that you can actually release, control and then react on the other end, like did what I wanted to happen? No, okay, well, now I can react to what did happen, I don't just have to reject it immediately. So I don't know. One of the reasons I liked this topic was I just feel like there are a lot of good interventions for it. What?

Speaker 2:

should loved ones do if you have a loved one who's super entitled?

Speaker 1:

So it's funny, my friend and I'm guessing other people who have suffered with this would not say this my friend was like I wish somebody would basically punch me in the face and be like dude, this is not how the world works. You are being entitled, snap out of it. But she also was somebody who had the courage enough to see this in herself. So you know, I don't know what would work for other people. I don't.

Speaker 2:

The tough love message maybe delivering it without a punch in the face. But yeah, like this, hey, this you know. Maybe clarifying that the social contract like hey, you are great, you're, you are really talented, you are special and you know the market's really hard right now, so you it's hard to get a job right, like I guess, like being not just leaning on the praising and the self-enhancement oh you're amazing, you deserve you know to put like that and yeah the other side is not going to probably give you what you were hoping for, and that sucks.

Speaker 1:

I mean it like kind of depends on what the role is like. If you're a parent, I would stay away from just telling your kid that they're smart and talented and amazing and instead, yeah, talk about things that are more social contracty, like, yeah, you worked so hard. Or yeah, you really understood what they were looking for here. Like you really understood the audience, you really treated your friend well and look what happened in return. You know, kind of pointing out processes instead of qualities, yeah, and skills, yeah, yeah, and I mean you could probably do some of that with a friend. But, man, I mean it's hard. It's tough, like, if it's pathological to the extent where, like you know, you're dealing with a narcissist. Then what did you learn when you were at Weill Cornell, kimmy?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, oh my gosh. My supervisor, like the famous Otto Kernberg, said okay, you're going to say to your patient in the next session you cannot live like a baby. Just because you don't want to work and want to hang out doesn't mean someone is just going to take care of you and do all the things that you don't want to do.

Speaker 1:

I was like okay, that's basically what my friend advocated for.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so maybe the punch in the face, figuratively speaking, is the way to go.

Speaker 1:

Oh man, I just feel like there'd be so many of them that would react so poorly to that but probably, probably.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I guess the thing is to tolerate that that person who's entitled is gonna be upset, right, like if they're gonna be either upset with the world or upset with you, but if there's any kind of clarification that what they were expecting or hoping for or thought they deserve isn't coming yeah you know. So maybe the tip for the loved ones is just to accept that they're not going to like hearing it yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1:

I think you can also maybe do things like point out times when life didn't go as expected, but it turned out well in the end out times when life didn't go as expected, but it turned out well in the end.

Speaker 1:

Um like strengths or resilience, or what you did to overcome challenges, or yeah, and just like really point out that that life is a mystery and that doesn't mean it's a bad mystery, like you know. Oh, like you had that horrible breakup back then. Look at the amazing relationship you're in now. Or like, yeah, you didn't get that one job. Like, oh, my God, this one time I did not get a job at Mount Sinai I really wanted. And then a better job at Mount Sinai opened up and I got that and I was like holy shit, all those tears I shed, I was actually like that bad thing that happened was like the best thing that could have happened to me. And sometimes life works that way, you know. So like, sometimes disappointments are actually gifts in disguise. And so maybe, just like pointing that out, doing things together might be helpful, like my friend had wished that her boyfriend had done like gratitude journaling with her. You know, I don't know, like that might be helpful if the person's kind of looking to change.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, I mean I'll plug myself to that. You know, with my company I'm supporting loved ones of people with mental illness or struggle. So like, if you feel like you have a loved one who is entitled or is narcissistic, it could be really hard because then you feel like in order to keep the relationship or keep things, um, you know, peaceful that you have to. You have to either praise them or protect them from that pain, which sometimes means like constantly giving or giving what they want, right, and that can feel really exhausting. So you could reach out to me at kibby, k-i-b-b-y, at Kulamindcom, k-u-l-a-m-i-n-dcom, or I'll put a link in the show notes. But if you need help with like setting boundaries or different skills that we're talking about here, just like, reach out and we could talk about how it can help different skills that we're talking about here, just like reach out, and we could talk about how it can help Perfect.

Speaker 1:

Well, even though none of you asked for an episode on entitlement, I think we did a pretty good job, so we deserve five stars on both Apple podcasts and Spotify, and we'll see you in a couple weeks. By accessing this podcast, I acknowledge that the hosts of this podcast make no warranty, guarantee or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information. Thank you, and all content or services available on or through this podcast are provided for general, non-commercial informational purposes only and do not constitute the practice of medical or any other professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be considered or used as a substitute for the independent professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a duly licensed and qualified healthcare provider. In case of a medical emergency, you should immediately call 911. The hosts do not endorse, approve, recommend or certify any information, product, process, service or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. Thank you.