A Little Help For Our Friends
A Little Help For Our Friends
Interview with Dr. Marcus Rodriguez: Expert strategies for strengthening parent-teen relationships
These days, the only thing harder than being a teen is parenting one. How do we even raise healthy adolescents and teens when they have the world literally at their fingertips and vapes look like harmless toys?? For this episode, we welcome back Dr. Marcus Rodriguez, a leading specialist in youth and family mental health. Dr. Rodriguez shares practical strategies from his vast clinical experience and personal journey as a parent, offering guidance on how to foster healthier family dynamics and strengthen parent-teen relationships. We cover a range of parenting strategies, from fostering communication with teenagers to understanding when to step back.
Resources:
- If you struggle with parenting a teen with emotional issues, check out KulaMind or fill out this interest form to learn how we can help.
- Dr. Marcus Rodriguez's Youth and Family Institute in California
- If you have a loved one with mental or emotional problems, we can help. Our online platform KulaMind offers individual support on demand, skills and resources to help you care for loved ones with mental illness. We only take a select few clients at a time, so apply here if you're interested. Listeners of the podcast get a special discount!
- For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
- Follow us on Instagram: @ALittleHelpForOurFriends
Welcome back, little helpers. We have a topic today that Kibbe and I have not encountered yet personally, but we definitely, definitely, definitely want to know how to do this when the time comes. So to help us, we have a returning favorite guest of ours and yours, dr marcus rodriguez. He is the director of the youth and family institute. He is an associate professor at pitzer college, he's the founder and director of Global Mental Health Lab and he is a trainer and consultant at the Behavioral Tech BiTech. Marcus, welcome, today you will be helping us figure out what to do with those pesky teenagers who are behaving poorly. Yes, hopefully, I know so little about this topic, but you have, I think, become like our resident parent expert. You were helping us learn how to validate our kids' emotions before, so can you tell us a little bit about the work you do on this topic with children, kind of what your background is?
Speaker 2:yeah, so I work with children and I I feel like I'm, as I'm hearing you introduce me, I'm thinking like I, I do, I have a pre-teen, I have pre-teens and I wonder, like in 20 years, if I listen back on this recording, we'll be like Marcus you thought you knew so much.
Speaker 2:So I think I guess, like, what I'll say is like, what I'm speaking from is clinical experience, like theoretical and practical, and then also, like I'm also, it's also possible that my own process of parenting will humble me. So I want to like, I want to like remember that. So, yes, I, I will speak to um, how to do this work. I guess I'll.
Speaker 2:Maybe I'll start with a little bit of just like I didn't work with adolescents early in our grad program, because we all went to the same program. I didn't do that because mainly, I would say, because of how intimidating it was to work with parents and helping kids who are struggling. And again, I don't have data to support this, but anecdotally, it seems like most people who don't work with kids and adolescents, a really big reason is it's challenging to figure out how to support the parents, how to work with that family system, and so it's something that I dedicated myself to in the last couple of years to figure out like, how can we do that so that parents don't get in the way of the treatment but they really support the work that we're trying to do with their, with their kiddos?
Speaker 1:Awesome, I just realized I do have a personal connection to this. I live with a teenager who is the teenage son of my boyfriend, but he's so well behaved that it didn't even like occur to me for a second when I was um introducing you. But on the other hand, I am looking for how to connect with him more and so and I bet that that's pretty related um, how to foster connection with your child or teenager. Um, so I don't know where do you want to start with this topic? Like, what do you think is the helpful kind of first thing to wrap our minds around?
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, I think I could go anywhere Um.
Speaker 3:I can ask an opening question of what do people come to you and seeking parenting, coaching or therapy for their kids? Often for I mean, we were talking about kids and teens who act out but what are the kinds of things that people come in saying Help us, dr Rodriguez, my kid is doing X, y, z. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to help them. What do you see in your work?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think everything across the spectrum. I'll go through in my mind some of the clients I'm working with now. One of them, the kid, has various forms of dysregulation and then they were driving, they got into a fight with their parents and they jumped out of the car, like the start of that one movie I forget. Like they just jumped out, or sometimes they'll engage in self-injurious behaviors or they'll. I think another common one is kids using drugs, like since the pandemic, kids being on their phone for like 15 hours a day is a problem. Or like school refusal. Parents will say, like my kid just won't go to school, which, like prior to the pandemic, that wasn't really a thing. Like when I was a kid I didn't wake up and be like am I gonna go to school today, you know, but like. But now that's a genuine question that kids like ask. Some kids are like but I go to school today, and then once they don't go for a while, it becomes so there's like school refusal, there's fighting, there's, and then there's also kids who have like really severe anxiety and they so there's lots of places they don't want to go.
Speaker 2:The parents will plan a trip. This just happened. They'll plan this really big trip where they're super excited to go to Central America. They have all these different excursions planned and then the morning of the kid says I'm not going, the parents are like wait, we don't have caregiving for you, we are also too young for us to just leave you for two weeks in our home. And yeah, they ended up like last minute they had to cancel the trip. It was really stressful. The kid felt guilty, the parents felt angry. So it could be like it's a number of things. I guess Usually by the time they're coming to us, it's because it's bad enough that it's really causing a lot of stress to the family system, either because the parents are feeling really scared. They're feeling really frustrated. They see that it's causing, like it's hurting, their relationship.
Speaker 2:Like they're not doing well in school. So those are the kinds of situations where a family would bring their kid and say, hey, we need help.
Speaker 3:That's a lot. It seems like a lot of non-participation, like kids checking out either mentally with their phones or physically from school or trips. It's like kind of. It sounds a little bit more like a withdrawing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, like I guess, when they feel emotionally overwhelmed, yeah, they will do whatever it takes to reduce the emotional intensity of their feeling in that moment. So, whatever the avoidance is like, making lots of rules about what they can and can't do, where they will and won't go, topics that will and won't be discussed at home or around them, yeah, so there's, there is definitely a lot of avoidance. Avoidance, I think, we typically associate with anxiety disorders, but avoidance also just, yeah, self-harm, right as a way to avoid feeling overwhelming shame. For example, like I just had a kid who an intake that I did not long ago. Where they were, they were discovered to be having sex in the shower with their with their partner, and the parents said that they were going to be having sex in the shower with their partner and the parents said that they were going to be gone for a long time. Their plans changed.
Speaker 2:They came back early and then the parents discovered them doing this. The parents yelled at the two kids. One of the kids left and then they kept lecturing their child. They went to bed and then the kid ingested a lot of medicine to try to kill themselves, quickly, got scared, came to the parents and said, hey, I just took all these meds so they had to go to the hospital. But even that, that moment of taking the medication, it is still a form of avoidance. It's that they were feeling so much shame about what had happened and it was so overwhelmingly painful. They couldn't really think of another way to bring down the intensity of that shame, and so they were just grasping for anything. They were on their phone, they were talking to friends, they were spiraling in their head and finally like, yeah, I think I should just like. The only thing I can think of that would work at this point would be to kill myself no-transcript that can get rid of that feeling, and that reminds me a lot of this, kibi.
Speaker 1:I think what you just pointed out, though, is really interesting, because I was waiting for you to say something more along the lines of the example you just gave, which is like, oh yeah, these kids are doing drugs, they're getting in trouble, they're doing petty crime. They're doing petty crime, you know, they're like doing things out in the world that are problematic, and instead it was. It was a lot of withdrawal, and I wonder if that's a shift we're seeing, because we certainly hear about it with with boys withdrawing from socializing, but the examples you initially gave were like refusing to go on trips, refusing to go on schools, getting stuck in phones, just a lot of isolation, and I yeah, I wonder if you've seen any trends with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even like. So I'm consulting with some school districts here in California and it's really interesting and talking to the principals some of them who have been principals for, you know, 20 years they said they see a big shift, even in like fights. They again this is anecdotal, I don't have data, but these are what these principals here in LA are saying. Before, when they first started working in the 90s, there would be lots of boys fighting, they said. Now it's way less common. They said actually the school fights that occur is mostly among the female students. They said you know and it'll sometimes.
Speaker 2:They said the most common trigger is someone will post something on social media and someone else will somehow mock that right, that post somehow will do something that leads to the other person feeling shame. And that is, yeah, the avoidance of that shame, the avoidance of the sadness, like we had talked about last time, is there's such an intense desire to avoid these really unpleasant emotions that they feel mostly totally out of control to manage that. They just decide all right, I'll do whatever it takes, I'll walk out of class. Another thing that principals at these middle schools they said kids just get up and walk out in middle class. They don't say anything, they don't ask anything.
Speaker 1:It's just anything to get rid of the feelings that they're having.
Speaker 3:It's wild. What are? What are the? What are? What kind of drugs are the kids doing these days? Like what?
Speaker 1:I mean all of the drugs.
Speaker 3:Cause I I thought, I thought there's some data that kids, um, as adolescents, are doing as Jacqueline's saying doing a lot less, like they're driving less, they're having less sex and doing fewer drugs. But you're seeing, is there like a shift in drug behavior recently.
Speaker 2:I think now with vapes it's way easier to smoke weed at school. Like it looks like someone's just like just pull out this like you don't have to roll anything. There's no fire involved. There's no like smoke. Someone's just like just pull out this tie like you don't have to roll anything. There's no fire involved. There's no like smoke. It's just like a quick boom and then, um, they're they. Can, you know, use weed in the middle of school? They just step into the bathroom.
Speaker 2:They don't even have to, they just like lean down underneath their desk and they can take a hit in a way that, like just like 15 years ago was it would be almost impossible to smoke weed during class, right? Like and now with with, with vapes, that's more possible. And then parents don't even know like they'll be like, oh, is this, is this marijuana? Is this a cigarette? They just see a little thing. And now some of these vapes don't even look like a vape they almost they can. They just look like a little toy almost and don't even look like a vape. They just look like a little toy almost.
Speaker 1:And so some parents who aren't super savvy are like oh, do you see more societal culprits or parenting-style culprits? So, for instance, boys having fewer friends seems like that's a societal culprit. Social media taking over how kids socialize and whether they socialize in person. Lockers being taken out of schools because of fears of school shootings that's something that's happened at my stepson's school. But I've also heard a lot about helicopter parenting being a big problem and parents feeling terrified to give their kids any kind of independence. So I don't know, what do you think of those kinds of various factors?
Speaker 2:I focused much more in my like my clinical work leads me to focus on parental factors, not because I actually think that that explains you know more of the pie of like why this kid is struggling, but because I feel like I have a little bit more control, or like or agency as a therapist working with a family to influence the family factors, as opposed to like I'm not in policy, like I'm not a politician, so I don't even know how to answer that question. I would say, certainly what I focus on is the ways that families are involved and the things that they're doing right now that aren't working and the things that they can do that work better. And sometimes even thinking about that question is a way that parents avoid doing the work that they can do right, like, like, even like if a parent at like I'm thinking like if a parent asked me that question during, like a session, my answer would be like I would probably give something to answer like this and I'd say and I wonder if it's easier for us to talk and think about big societal issues than to talk about, like, individual interactions that you're having with your kid and what might be getting in the way of you maximizing the potential of those interactions for their wellness. So, yeah, I'm not an expert in like, I don't know, like I don't know the big societal factors, but my, my gut tells me that, yes, the solution is, if we're seeing big emotion dysregulation, then yes, like, I think that a lot of these kids are living in an invalidating like like we need to fix the environment Right, and I don't just mean like the family, I mean like like there are many things that aren't working about how we're, about our society now for kids, and and yet I don't know how to intervene on that.
Speaker 2:And so so I, and then I ended up feeling helpless, similar to parents. So, yeah, I guess my answer would be like both and I have tools to help families and parents. I suppose, like, I don't have a tool to be like. Oh, like, here's a letter, copy paste this and send it to your congressperson. You're like, you know, like I don't know.
Speaker 3:Well, what are you seeing parents doing that is not working right? Like I'm just as you were saying about the vape things, I was like, oh my God, what would I do if I caught jackson in a couple years with a weird toy that actually is a you know drug apparatus? Or just finding him having sex in my shower, like I don't, you know, like I can imagine, just you know, just reacting out of like mama bear instincts. But what? What are people doing?
Speaker 2:that, um, you think, is like not helping the situation I'll tell you the number one thing and it's not the only thing, but it's the most common one is that parents try to change their kids' minds in order to change their behavior. That is the most common, right. I mean, that's even. That's even what we do as therapists, like when we first start doing therapy without any training. If they're like here, get into the room with this patient and, like, try to help them with their depression, anxiety. Our go-to is tell me what you're thinking and let me try to change how you think. And when I change how you think, it's going to change how you feel. And when I change how you feel, it's going to change your behavioral urges and what you do and your, and then you'll feel better, that is just our go-to.
Speaker 2:Like if you go to Starbucks and you start, like, meet a total random stranger and you, like start venting about, like, oh, like, what's going on? What are they going to do? They're going to try to change that to help you. They're going to try to change your mind in order to change your behavior, with super good intentions. That is really problematic when it comes to all the list of behaviors that we were just now describing, right, like so my number one thing that I tell parents not to do. By the time they've come to me, they have exhausted the strategy of let me change my kid's mind in order to change their behavior, because what that does is it hurts the relationship because, like so I don't know they'll try to convince their kids to not smoke weed. They'll tell them why it's bad. They'll prevent to present them with data, or they'll try to explain to them, like why it's so important that you go on vacations and get exposed to the world, or like why going to school, like they will provide them with lectures and and criticism and all sorts of of strategies that ultimately are intended to change what the kid thinks and therefore how they feel and what they do. But in that process. What ends up happening as the kid gets older and they become like a tween and a teenager, is that then it starts to lead to debates, like the efforts to change their kid's teenager is that then it starts to lead to debates, like the efforts to change their kid's mind leads to a debate and debates lead to fights. Right can at least, or arguments and arguments can lead to fights, and fights when, when it goes really poorly, either the fight starts to feel out of control for the parent, or, if the parent feels like they kind of lost the argument, they have more authority, they have more power in the, in the, in the relationship. So they can just say like okay, fine, well, I'm taking away your phone. Or like, fine, like you can't use the car or or or whatever limit. They ultimately like I'm not giving you any money, so it doesn't matter, you're not going to that concert. Right, like they ultimately do have more power, so like they'll first try to change their kid's mind and when it doesn't work, they still have the power to say, anyway, it's going to be the way I want it to be, regardless. And that's when, and that's when the kid feels like now I'm powerless. So then they'll act out in some way that feels really scary.
Speaker 2:That's when a, when a parent comes to therapy in our first session, like and I and I have the family for the intake, and it's like the parents and the or the caregiver and the and the kid for the intake, and it's like the parents and the or the caregiver and the kid. They'll usually start with a story like oh, my kid just like threw a chair through the window. They like they actually kicked the dog so hard that like it broke ribs and we had to take it to the right. So they'll start with that story. What they don't tell you is the context. Almost always it was some version of I was trying to change my kid's mind. It became a debate, it became an argument, it came to fight until eventually, because I have more power, they use the power they do have, which is I threaten to commit suicide, I threaten to self-harm, and once I do that or I actually engage in the behavior. And then the parents like whoa, whoa, fine, if you're gonna act so crazy, fine, like, we'll do what you want. And so it just reinforces this, this dynamic that I described of like, like causing rifts in the parent. But the other problem that that does is it reinforces. Each time you're having that type of debate, the kid is looking for more reasons to support their current view. It's like they're digging deeper and deeper trenches. They're looking for evidence to support why they feel the way they do, about, say, smoking weed or not going to class. And that's what debates do. They just cause you to look for more and more reasons to support your view and therefore you get more and more entrenched in that view. You get more and more polarized in that view. You get more and more polarized in that view. Each time this happens in therapy too, right Like our patients will come and say like life is meaningless.
Speaker 2:If we take the bait and we start trying to describe why life is meaningful, what we're doing is we're like we're helping them practice the process of explaining why life is meaningless. And so we're like life is so meaningful and we're pulling the rope on this side. Like life is meaningless. And so we're like life is so meaningful and we're pulling the rope on this side of like life is meaningless. And they're giving all the evidence. It's like even just that process of trying to convince our patient or parent, convincing, you know, their child or a loved one, convincing someone that they care about that life is meaningful. We're essentially like taking them to the gym to be like here, like practice. The thought of life is meaningless and so it's so hard. Because when I tell parents you have to stop trying to change your kid's mind, to change their behavior, they feel like, well then, what am I gonna do? Right, like you're basically saying, like, give up. I'm trying to help my kid, right, um, but that's like for like what not to do.
Speaker 3:That's where I start well, that's so interesting too. I just I'm just saying like I could see why that would feel like good parenting, because then it's like, oh, if I treat them like an equal right, like back, you know, like to say, I'm treating like an equal, I'm going to explain my side and teach them and hopefully let them make their own decisions, versus like the old traditional version of well, you're just not going to like nope, no means no Right. It's like I could see why that could feel like the right thing to do. But interesting, interesting about that. Sorry, jacqueline, cut you off. What would you want to?
Speaker 1:ask. No, I mean I that's been one of the hardest things to change in in doing therapy too is is trying to intervene immediately when I'm taking bait and starting to arguing, argue a point and then having to and I still don't know that I'm doing it particularly well. But what do you do instead?
Speaker 2:I have time to know the answer Well, that's okay, well, that's the problem, right? It's like what do I do in my life? I don't. I mean right now, my kid is like so, like, she's just like so perfect.
Speaker 2:I haven't felt the pull, but I think you can see how, like if a parent comes home and realizes that like oh my gosh, my kid is sending compulsive texts to their ex being like call me, why don't you pick up the phone? Are you there? Hello, hello, and the parent somehow sees these messages, they feel like if I don't tell my kid why this is bad, that like I'm not being a loving parent, like if I don't tell them that this is ineffective, that like that, like continuing to reach out to your ex in a way that feels really desperate is a bad idea, then who is and what you know? Like that. So I think I do want to like acknowledge, like parents have, like I don't know this urge to do this, because it feels like if they don't, what else can they do? It feels like a loving and caring thing to do.
Speaker 1:I think the other thing too is like I have much older siblings and when they would try to convince me of something I would be much more receptive to it, because I'm like, oh you're cool, role models versus parents, it's just a very different dynamic. You're cool role models versus parents, it's just a very different dynamic. So I see that sometimes with my boyfriend's son, where I want to take like the, the cool, older, you know, cousin or sister or whatever, and he just doesn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the reason that we do this also is because it works. Like when it works, it works so well, right, like I, cognitive therapy is popular because I tried to convince my mother-in-law to use the. Um, my mother-in-law lives with us like half of the year but she doesn't use a dishwasher. Like she just won't. She just thinks like that's crazy, that you would put a dirty dish into this box and it's just not going to clean your dishes. So I tried to explain, explain, it didn't. And then I did some cognitive therapy. I pulled up a video of someone who put a GoPro inside of a dishwasher with nasty dishes that had been sitting in the sink for like two days and I had to sit down with her. I was like, hey, let's watch this video, right. And guess what? After that it worked Again. Like the main problem was I couldn't convince her to just leave the dishes and I will do them when I come home, right? She feels like the moment a dish hits the sink, like boom. So, so like like she can't tolerate that, that to wait for me to come do it at home. So I'm like, all right, if you can't do that, then at least use the dishwasher. Cognitive therapy worked. Boom, she saw that video. From then on, she'll put like anything in the dishwasher.
Speaker 2:It works, like when we can change people's minds about something. It's powerful and it's quick. So I still think that that's still plan, a right Like, that's still option, a Try that. What I mean is when parents overdo it. They have already told, given their rationale for whatever behavior, like why it's important for their kid to have some sort of an extracurricular, and they have now given that lecture to their kid in 20 different ways. They've gotten their parents involved in giving them a lecture. They got their close friends to come over and they gave them a heads up like, hey, my kid doesn't want to do any extracurriculars. Can you find a time dinner? And we're just going to like highlight the importance and the value given their goals like it's that's what I'm saying. Doesn't work is the overdoing of it, of not pivoting soon enough when they realize that this strategy doesn't work I'm guessing you then go into some version of like validating their?
Speaker 2:feelings yeah tell us what to do just give us the goods
Speaker 3:what we do we do we jujitsu their minds?
Speaker 2:We show them.
Speaker 3:YouTube videos of GoPros.
Speaker 2:Yes, I mean okay. So what do we do instead? I think that there's two main options. One is and it sounds ridiculous when I share this with parents but one is acceptance. It really it sounds so radical like if a parent says, like my kid is smoking weed every day, and I suggest, like maybe one approach is acceptance, they'll just think, like this is crazy that you're saying this, like you don't care about my kid or take my situation seriously with matters that are not life-threatening. Then yes, like, acceptance is always on the table as an option.
Speaker 2:And I don't say that as like some sort of like mental jujitsu or I'm trying to trick them and like whoa, I actually genuinely mean what if we didn't try to change this? And acceptance means what? Acceptance means what if we allowed this to not be a thing that we lecture them on anymore? We don't ascribe punishments anymore, we just allow that behavior and trust that natural consequences or hope not even trust hope that natural consequences will one day shape the behavior in the way that we want. So one day they'll realize, oh shoot, I want to give up smoking weed because I have these goals of performing better in sports or of doing well or getting into a college and I'm realizing that when I really try to focus on studying for that test, that I'm struggling and I tried lots of different strategies oh, maybe smoking this much weed is interfering with my ability to retain this information and to concentrate and stay motivated Then they decide because they're seeing their grades slip or because they didn't get into college, they decide, oh shoot, like I do want to stop smoking because my partner just left me, because they feel like I'm using too many drugs. Then the natural consequences would lead them to say, oh shoot, I want to change.
Speaker 2:That's really, really scary, though, for parents to say I'm going to accept, and yet there's a lot of issues that need to be accepted that aren't, and that option isn't taken seriously enough by parents.
Speaker 2:And again, I say that and I'm like, I feel like I need to come back to this in 15 years and see how hard it's going to be for me to hear myself saying this when it's my own kids.
Speaker 2:And yet, like, rationally, we know that's true Like there's wisdom in we can't take up every single battle with our kids and be like oh, like, you have to read and you have to do, you know, exercise or yoga every day and you have to eat in this really balanced way and you have to sleep in a particular way and you can't use swear words and you right, like, and we have all these. You know, and, like you, you have to be involved in these, these social and political issues and the ways that I want you to, and we have all all of these issues and we don't let go of any of them. That is where things get problematic, right? So I think that's one strategy and then the other strategy is much more complicated, and I can go, I can, I can go into it, but I guess any questions about I don't know thoughts about.
Speaker 3:I want to jump into the the before you go into that. Yeah, hearing that strategy of acceptance, my initial reaction was no way.
Speaker 3:Or like hoping that it would be a reverse psychology of yeah sure, smoke all the weed you want.
Speaker 3:Use our experience of wisdom to curb our kids from situations that we know is dangerous and they might not understand how dangerous it is. For example, like if I caught my future 13 year old son smoking weed every day. I know that. Okay, if his grades slip and he affects his health this way, this might have like really long-term consequences on his ability to get into college. Like I don't know who knows neural pathways, like you know. Like there might be consequences that I can't trust that he will discover and stop on his own Right, especially if he's the kind of kid who is so dysregulated that bringing down intense emotion will take priority over all of those long-term like I need to get into college. Well, screw that. I'm really upset now and I need something to help me calm down right. So I think like the acceptance part is tough to swallow, because I don't really trust that the kids will do what you say and stop it on their own accord at the right time.
Speaker 2:It's true, and this is where parents and kids get caught up in that cycle with each other, where, like one case that I'm working with there's, you know, the kid has trichotillomania, so they pull their hair and have now pulled all of their hair out and used to have long hair past their shoulder, and now it's, you know, it's all like an inch long but slightly uneven, and the parent feels really, really anxious for this kid.
Speaker 2:It's affecting their friendships, it's affecting so many things right then the kid will get anxious about something or upset about something and will reach out to the parent in a way that feels compulsive. We'll be like we'll seek reassurance, we'll seek their help, we'll want their support right away. The parents are trying to like have like a very serious career and so, on the one hand, they know like I can't take this call right now I'm in the middle of a really important meeting. On the other hand, when they get that request for help from their kid, they feel like I have to take it, because if I don't, what if my kid then pulls their hair instead? And then they feel like, oh gosh, that feels so stressful for them. So they have their own anxious process.
Speaker 2:Now we're like I have to now respond to my kid. I have to like be there and do something that maybe goes outside of my limits of what I'm really able to do, but like if I don't, then what is going to happen to my kid and so, and then that reinforces the kid to keep using this particular strategy to regulate their emotions, which is essentially I'm really upset. All I do is I just tell my parent I'm really really anxious and now it's kind of your problem, like now, I watch my parents scramble to try to figure out ways to help me feel less anxious and so I lose that sense of agency like what we talked about last time. Right, like because now, like I just say, ah, I'm super, super anxious and upset, and then I sit back and watch my parents scramble to try to make me feel better. I'm like no that didn't work.
Speaker 2:No, that doesn't work. No, that doesn't work. It's almost like this buffet, this, this, like like a sushi, you know conveyor belt of options that the parents are trying to bring to me to help reduce my stress, and anxiety.
Speaker 2:And I get to just passively say no, no, no, which isn't good for the kid. But the parents feel like they have to keep bringing these efforts to reduce the kid's stress, because then their own fear is oh shoot, if I don't right, and that's just one example, but that cycle is what happens, which makes it really really hard to lean into the acceptance side of the solution.
Speaker 1:Can you beef up rewards or punishments of the natural consequences consequences? So, for instance, with the weed example um, you accept that they smoke weed every day, but you know the only reason they would stop smoking weeds is if they were motivated enough by possible rewards or consequences. I know external motivation isn't the best, but like my parents used to pay me to get good grades. So like if the kid okay, we accept that you smoke weed every day, you know, you do, you, um, but by the way, if you get an A in science, you get 200 bucks A hundred percent Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that's, that's the other option, right, like the, the complex alternatives. So we've got like try to change your kid's mind, to change the behavior. Don't do that. We've got like acceptance. And then we have this combination of strategies.
Speaker 2:Number one in this third bucket of ways to approach the problem is setting limits, very, very specific limits, and communicating them very, very clearly and making sure that there's few. When I work with parents, I say you can only set three limits max, parents. I say you can only set three limits max Because in general, my kid has a super messy room and my kid is smoking, they're vaping and my kid is swearing at us and their sibling and my kid is not doing any of their homework and my kid is self-harming. All of these behaviors are unacceptable and I'm going to set I've been using punishment for each of these. I would say we need to choose three and the only one that has to be on there, from my perspective, is the self-harm Right. And then you choose two, right. So we choose the life-threatening behavior where we say all right, let's prioritize that, because we can't shape that many behaviors using punishment. Punishment extinguishes a behavior while the punisher is present, but it also like takes a big toll on the relationship and so so one option is we say, all right, we need to set up contingencies, and they need to be clear and they need to be, but the key is consistency. Parents want to use intensity to shape their kids behavior. They want to be like I'm going to just come down with such a strong lecture, use such strong and aversive words. They'll never forget it. Or I'm going the door off their, off their room, I'm going to shut down their phone for a week. They'll come up with something really intense, hoping that, like, if it's intense enough, that's going to shape the behavior. What's needed isn't intensity, but consistency.
Speaker 2:Right, like the example that I give parents is when I moved to LA, I was living with my parents on the West side and driving to Claremont to teach a Pitzer. It's a super long drive, it's like 70 miles, and I would have to leave like at six, 15. And there's this, this portion on the 10 freeway where they have fast track, these two special lanes, or you can, if you have a little like transponder on your dashboard, you pay like $3 and you get to go really fast. And one of the days I was like, oh shoot. And one of the days I was like, oh shoot, I left too late and I was going to be late to class. And I was like, nope, screw it, I just pulled into the Fast Track lane and I went. I was like, and I was like, yeah, like I have to because I'm not going to, like, lose my job. But I knew 100% of the time I'm going to get a ticket when you go in Fast Track without the transponder, no-transcript. I was basically writing myself the ticket. If someone had taken a picture of me when I was going through Fast Track, they'd be like this guy must be a billionaire, like he doesn't even care, like it doesn't matter to him. It'd be like dropping, like a nickel. He's like, oh, it's too hard to even bend over for these $55. In reality that was a ton of money, right, but they were so consistent I didn't even have a big emotional reaction because I knew every single time to.
Speaker 2:By comparison, the other example of non-consistent is the Civitan parking lot. So you remember. So we, we all, we all worked. We all worked at Duke medical center, in psychiatry. There's this tiny little parking lot right outside of our building and then there's this big parking lot around the corner the big parking lot is, is monitored. You'll get a ticket if you park in this place. You're not supposed to. The civetan is this tiny little, probably like 20 parking spots, and the parking enforcement folks would just never go over there. So when I was there I would go and I would park in that little parking lot like all the time, like probably like three or four times a week, but they monitored it so seldom I would get like a ticket, maybe like once or twice a semester, and I'd come out and I'd be like, oh, I'd have this big emotional reaction of it. What? When I saw the ticket on my windshield, it was only a twenty five dollar ticket. What's going on? The universe hates me, right. And. But I kept doing it for years because it was inconsistent, I. But if I knew that every single time I parked in the Civitan that I would get a ticket, then either I wouldn't have a big reaction when I did or I would stop that behavior and I would leave my house earlier to make sure I could go to the parking lot that is for students, right? And so instead, over the course of years, I racked up way more parking tickets from Civitan than I did from Fast Track because it wasn't consistent, which led to both like a bigger emotional reaction and a longer behavior.
Speaker 2:So when I tell parents, I was like we've got to be super clear and we phrase our consequences in terms of if, then if you blank behavior, then you know X consequence. So that's step one is using consistency, not intensity, and even just that principle is so difficult for parents to accept because the issue feels so pressing. It's like wait, my kid just cussed me out in the middle of the grocery store. Like that's, that's not something that I can slowly shape towards. Like I can't have that happen three times. Like Marcus and fast track, I need that to be the first and the last time it ever happens. And yet, like consistency is, is really the path forward.
Speaker 2:The other approach is what you were saying, jacqueline, is positive reinforcement is taking all of the other behaviors on their list and then coming up with what is the, what is the? An alternate, incompatible behavior with that behavior. I don't want that. I can then reinforce, I can provide a reward for it. So it's like all right, I want you to do well in school. I'm going to reinforce grades. Right, I'm going to reinforce going to class. I'm going to reinforce grades, right, I'm going to reinforce going to class. I'm going to like get strategic about again. Also, if, then, if you blank, then this is the reward. And for parents they feel like wait, so I'm going to reward my kid for doing what they should do anyway.
Speaker 2:And number one, number two, like and this is maybe going to work over time by shaping, and we're only going to know once we start implementing these contingencies if it functions. They just feel like that feels like too long of a process, right, they want some quick solution to these behaviors and the reality is it's going to be a combination of reinforcement, setting limits, and then, once we have limits in place, then we can actually provide what our kid needs, which is so if you come in in the morning and you tell your kid like hey, it's time to get up, you got to go to school, and the kid's like, ah, I'm not going, but you've already set a contingency, maybe the contingency is like, when you don't go to school, you don't have access to any of your devices, for you know, during the time you're in school and you lose, you know, a privilege to use the car for one week, one day, that weekend, they can come up with something and so great, so they set up that contingency and it's already been cleared, clearly communicated. Then the parent can just sit down and be like, oh man, what's going on and they can be like, oh, I just feel so, I just feel so tired, oh, okay. And they can get curious and ask like, oh, why are you tired? What's been happening? Oh, it sounds like you have a really big test today. You don't feel ready for it. Man, that makes sense. Like it's so stressful to go when you're not ready.
Speaker 2:Or oh, it sounds like things have been tough with your classmates. Like, man, like that sounds so hard. How can I help? Is there any anything I can do? Or just to validate, like, yeah, that sounds really tricky and really tough and I'm sorry that that's what's happening with your friend group, that it feels like it's imploding. The parents can just validate and then, after they're done validating, the kid's like, oh, so you get it. Like you totally see why I'm not going to school. I'm like, yeah, I get it. Like, okay, so there's no consequence, I can have my communicated, consistently implemented consequences for your musts. Then in that moment you don't have to sit down and once again lecture them on why it's important to go to school Instead that morning. You can get curious, you can validate, you can be supportive, which is what the kid needs.
Speaker 2:And of course, like parents, also need to learn skills to regulate their own emotions so that when their kid says they're not going, they can like access their prefrontal cortex, they can get curious, they can provide that validation which is going to then help their kid to be more regulated to collaborate. The ultimate goal is can we collaboratively problem solve on this issue right, which you're much more likely to get to when you're using validation. And then there's just these consequences operating in the background.
Speaker 3:Can you give some examples of ways to reinforce the behavior that you want, because I have read that there's certain ways of rewarding that could actually backfire for kids right, like there's some people that say, you know, paying, giving money or grades or some other kind of like external, you know, reward would actually take the intrinsic like I wanna do this the intrinsic motivation and actually just gear up that kid to just want to get the goodies right. So is there like have you seen some reinforcement or ways to encourage good behavior that's effective or that works?
Speaker 2:I think it's helpful to think of rewards as like scaffolding, because, you're right, it does need to at some point become more intrinsic. And so if the goal is scaffolding, maybe you provide reinforcement initially until they see like, yeah, actually this does work for me, like I do like going to bed earlier. So, for example, like I want my DBT clients to call me for skills coaching they often don't, so I'll tell parents. I'll be like what if you offer your kid 10 bucks for the first four times they call me? And then it's my job to show them in those first four phone calls that I can be helpful. So right, so like you reinforce to get them connected to the intrinsic value of that behavior.
Speaker 2:Not that you consistently say like, like by the end of, you know, of school. The reinforcement of getting paid for your grades, jacqueline, I doubt was really the main driving force. It just became. It helped. It was just one more excuse. When you're like sitting there, like oh, I just want to lay here and watch, like more Netflix, it would be one more thing that your mind could be like but if you do this, you're also going to get a little bit of money. It's not that it's sufficient to sustain the behavior, but it helps support effective behavior that the kid and their wise mind does want to engage in.
Speaker 3:That's really interesting.
Speaker 2:I think that a bigger motivator, though, would be parental validation. I think getting validated by their parents is going to be the strongest source of motivation when they're like oh, my parent gets it. Like my parent supports me, sees my challenges from my perspective Um yeah, but it's hard to to have the margin to get curious and provide validation. If you're still trying to change your kid's mind, to change their behavior, those two things are directly opposed.
Speaker 3:like you can't do both do you have situations where, um, the kid just doesn't want to open up. Okay, I imagine like when, if the parents trying to practice, you know, listening and validating, like what, what parent doesn't want to like talk to their kid about what's going on with them? But I imagine that with like, what do you? How do you even validate a kid who might be like fine nothing and like does and shut, shuts the parent out?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think it's tricky to try to figure out why they're doing that. Right, sometimes they might be doing that because they've been burnt so bad so many times they just feel like I worry, if I open up to my parent, I'm going to share more information than I want to and then later that will somehow be used against me. Maybe I'm really vulnerable and I say, oh yeah, I was talking to Jacqueline, and then we had this argument. And then you as my parent, are like, oh, what happened? What did she say? What did you say? And then I'm being really vulnerable. You're validating me, but my worry is that, fast forward six months, you and I have a big fight and be like that's exactly why Jacqueline was so mad at you that day. Like it's because you do this not just to me, you do this to her, you do this to all your friends. And now I'm like I wish I had never given you that information because you wouldn't be using it against me.
Speaker 2:Now, again, that's getting really specific. But the broad concern that kids have is I share this information and I just get burnt. I feel like it's later used as ammunition in trying to change my behavior, in trying to perpetually trying to change me without a balance, because, you're right, it is our job. I'm constantly trying to change my daughter. I am and trying to balance that with like you know what that's her like like, as opposed to each time, I have the urge to engage in some change-based strategy, to also step back and be like, ah, maybe I'm gonna let that go, because if I watch her interact and we went to this trampoline park, this like this last at the end of school year and I just so I had an entire day to watch her with her friends I had things that I observed like feedback. I wanted to give her, like you know, a journey in that moment and it's like, marcus, let it go. Like she's not asking for your advice and she's doing just fine socially, like she doesn't need you to now coach her on how to get along with her friends. Just have a good time, marcus. Just get on the trampoline and jump and stop trying to analyze ways to make her better. The best thing she can have is a good time with her dad at the trampoline park, with her friends, right? Like that's what she needs Not her dad, who's like jumping, but also being like. That was an interesting way for you to respond to that friend's request journey Like she doesn't need that, right.
Speaker 2:And so I think also, sometimes parents have hurt their kids really, like emotionally, in ways that their kids just aren't ready to open up again, and so it takes time. And I think parents need to to to to give their kids the time that it takes to show them that that they're ready to approach things differently, they can really validate them and try to understand them. And that takes time, right, especially when you've had, if you have, like, a kid who has consistently gotten, you know, dysregulated with because of something that happens with the parents, and then they have a big emotion and in that big emotion they respond in some way that is inaccurate or ineffective. And that's when the parent is like, oh my gosh, that's where they're like, look, why did you just yell that? Why are you kicking your sibling's seat in the car Instead of recognizing like, yeah, like, let me validate the valid part. You're feeling upset that your sibling's sitting in the front seat again. You're worried that we're going to cut you out of the conversation. That you're not going to be. You know that you're going to take second class in in our conversation, that you're not going to get to control the radio and have the music that like vibes with the mood that you're in like, because if we could provide that validation, it would reduce some of the emotional dysregulation. It would reduce the likelihood, therefore, of inaccurate expression and out of control behavior, which would then make it easier for the kid to express themselves accurately, which would make it easier for the parent to validate, which again is a cycle.
Speaker 2:Now the kid feels less emotionally aroused, less out of control, expressing themselves more accurately. The parents then don't get as dysregulated, so they can validate. And then you know, because the opposite is, it goes in the opposite direction Dysregulation, inaccurate expression. The parents get upset, they invalidate, which leads to the kid feeling more upset, which leads to more dysregulation, which leads to more ineffective behavior, which makes the parents more upset, which leads to more invalidation. And then eventually, boom, the kid jumps out of the car and they're like, well, my gosh, like what's wrong with my kid. The opposite is that the cycle of like self-regulating, validating the kid, the kid using whatever skills they have to regulate themselves so they can express themselves more accurately, cause the reality is it goes both ways.
Speaker 2:It's not just that the parents are failing to validate. It's that the kids are expressing themselves really inaccurately. The kid comes in, throws their backpack on the couch, hits the dog, the dog, and then they go into their room, slam the door, a frame falls off the wall and the parent's like what's going on? They're like I hate this school, I'm never going back.
Speaker 2:It's really hard for a parent to validate like that moment. All they're, all they want to say is like we don't hit our dogs right. Like we don't slam doors in this house, we don't swear like, like and yes, you're going back to school. Like that kid just set themselves up for like four forms of invalidation. But like what if they had come in and express themselves accurately? Instead, like the parents, like hey, how was your day? Like like super, super hard.
Speaker 2:I feel really discouraged. I had a big argument with you know, my girlfriend, or my boyfriend, and I feel, or I just failed to test that was that I thought I was going to do really well on or I just feel like I'm not as smart as my friends and I'm not going to be able to accomplish as much as that. Like if they come in and express that it's so much easier for a parent to be like, oh, shoot, like, and they can validate like right. But if instead, they lean into their secondary emotion, it's really hard for parents because what's the valid like? They don't see anything valid. All they see is like dogs getting hit with backpacks, frames falling off walls, swear words being yelled, and so I think it's it's, it's the yes, the kid needs to be doing their work in therapy and the parents need to be learning. How do I, how do I regulate my emotions so that I can find the valid piece and what my kid is experiencing, so that I can reflect that to them?
Speaker 3:Can you give an example of, of a case that you've seen or a parent who's had to learn that? I'm curious, like when I'm I'm hearing that that process of like learning how to validate instead, um, like, how do you start? Like where, how does that what? What does that look like? Like what give us some hope of some parents who have figured it out?
Speaker 2:Yeah so. So here's one example. Again, this is not I'm not, this is not like the most perfect case, but this is one that I'm currently working on. The parents have been saying for a really long time I want my kid to stop smoking weed. And then when we come up with very clear behavioral consequences and reinforcements, the parents can't stick to them, because as soon as they implement the consequence, the kid has a big emotional reaction. The parents get scared and then they just fold like a cheap tent and they're like fine, fine, and they just let the kid do what they need to do. And they like so the kid gets to do so. So we go through that again and again and finally I tell the parents I'm like what if we just lean into acceptance with some? Maybe you just say you can't smoke in the house, there's a consequence for smoking in the home right, you can't buy or sell on our front driveway. There's a consequence for doing that.
Speaker 2:Then what it's allowed the parents to do is to focus on all right, instead of spending all their energy focusing on how do I get my kid to stop smoking weed. We instead shifted to what is my kid's strengths, because they're not the traditional strengths that these parents had to have. You know, their traditional, successful careers. So, instead, what are my kid's strengths and how do I help them maximize those and lean into them, rather than focusing on the ways that they are not meeting up to, just like just the normative standards of what is successful academically and professionally, and making that shift?
Speaker 2:And it's really hard because parents will be like no, no, no.
Speaker 2:And they'll have moments like I'm going to accept, I'm going to say like no weed at home, no buying and selling like on our street. And and then I'm just going to focus on figuring out like what are their strengths? How can I get them connected to sports, to hobbies, to activities that are going to work for them, where they're going to feel mastery? And they're going to feel, yeah, they're going to have like mastery and a sense of control and agency and competence and feel happy with what they can do. And then they'll be like no, no, no, wait, but they can't smoke weed. And we just have to keep coming back to remember what are the pieces we decided to accept, what are the hard limits for you, and then actually use your energy to understand your kid. What are their interests? What are their interests, what are their strengths and how can you leverage your resources as parents to maximize those strengths, rather than focusing on all the ways that they're not perfectly aligned with more standard, you know, like metrics for success.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's cool In the example of the kid who comes in screaming with the backpack and the dog and the frame, like what kind of step-by-step. How would you, if you were a parent, approach that situation? Cause all you see is a secondary emotion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, in reality, I'd probably get really upset. So maybe the first thing I need to do is I would probably go to my wife and be like Julia, like did you just see what she did? Right, I was first. I just I need validation, because I'm about to try to validate, so and then I'm hoping that she would be more level headed than me and be like, oh yeah, and then I'm hoping hard day, cause, like that's not typically, she comes in and says like daddy, and like hugs you, like I bet she's in there, and be like, okay, yeah, you're probably right. And then she was like you know what let's get. Maybe she says something like let's just give her some time, let her cool off, but like, remember that she's really struggling and she probably had a really tough day and she's doing her best to regulate, but what came out was secondary anger. Um, to regulate, but what came out was secondary anger.
Speaker 2:I'm going to go comfort the dog and let the dog know that Journey still loves him, right, and I'm going to probably, when I do come back to talk to her, I'm going to say, hey, journey, you broke that frame. I need you to pay for a replacement, right? I'm not going to yell it, I'm not going to try to convince her why that's important. I'm going to state it as a fact. It's not like up for debate. I think a lot of times parents debate too much. When I, when I explained to them the idea of like setting limits, what they think is oh, I'm going to come up with these with with the, with this MOU, essentially. And then you're going to, you know, you're going to review a draft of the MOU and decide like are you on board with this new arrangement? No, the kid's not going to be on board with the new arrangement. Right, like they like the system as it is now. So it's not that it's just saying like hey, here's what it is and as quickly as possible, coming to validation. Now that I've said you're going to pay for the frame, I'm going to trust that each time she breaks the frame like that or does something destructive that she knows is going to cost her, it does something destructive that she knows is going to cost her. It's just like the fast track taking a photo of your license. You know a hundred percent of the time there's going to be a consequence.
Speaker 2:I don't have to harp on that. Instead I can sit down and be like oh, journey is everything. Okay, do you want to get frozen yogurt? Like, do we want to figure out, like, what's going on? It seems like you're really struggling. I'm here If you want to talk about it.
Speaker 2:We could go for a walk with josh, since he did get hit by a backpack today. Right, like um, and and I think that, um, maybe that's how I would approach it is is to not, I guess, maybe that maybe that would be modeling, like in that example, in this hypothetical example, because again, like, let's fast forward 15 years, I have no idea what my life is going to be like, but assuming like I can stay in this wise mind and my daughter continues to be this easy, then I, yeah, then I would hope that, like, that's what I would do, that I would practice some acceptance and then decide what are my limits, use reinforcement for that, and then, otherwise, I'm giving her the opportunity to make a repair with the dog and take the dog for a walk, because the dog loves nothing more than walking, like the dog loves walking, next being pet and third, food. So, like, all right, like I know you love this dog. I know you would have never done that on purpose. I wonder if he deserves a third walk today. I'll go with you if you want.
Speaker 2:Right, so it's. It's. It's trying to foster connection. I think these kids need connection from their parents. Back to your question of like what is it societal or family? I think it's both. But the piece that we have more control of is like can we leverage even the tiny little slice of pizza you know that represents how much we are impacting our kids outcomes and just try to maximize that slice by maintaining a solid relationship where they feel understood and validated, um, where there's few consequences but they're clear and they're consistent. And then we help them like I don't know, like lean into their strengths while accepting things that, like we wish were different and better.
Speaker 1:So it sounds like, sounds like okay. So regulate self, then set contingency or remind of contingency, then go in and validate offers, offer yourself and then offer solutions for repair if they want, yeah, if they want like to do collaborative problem solving, then great, like probably something is really bothering them.
Speaker 2:No one loves them as much as their parent, right?
Speaker 1:like so.
Speaker 2:So there's. So it's like well, try to like get support from this person who wants you to be happy so much like just really wants you to find happiness. You can like two minds are better than one. So if you tell me the problem that got you so upset, so sad, so like embarrassed that you respond like that you came into the house that way, then maybe the two of us together could come up with a solution. Not me lecturing the solution at you, but us exploring collaboratively. That's the goal. And it's not that we have to do that every time, but if we can do that more than we don't do, that that's the goal.
Speaker 1:What about the opposite scenario? So with like in my situation, really really good kid but entered the teenage years and is really non-communicative. Now like says I don't know to everything. So there's not necessarily a behavior to modify, but there's a little bit of a concern that like will we know when something's bothering him, when he's struggling with something, um, and then just like, wanting um, wanting to foster communication, wanting to know him better. But I mean, I remember, as a teenager too, being like I'm gonna pretend that I'm asexual, so you don't even ask me about who I'm dating or who I like, like I'm going to really, you know, shut things down a lot. So yeah, so what might you do for that kind of kid? Or do you just accept I'll?
Speaker 2:get to know you in a few years, I think. I think that's a part of it is giving the kid agency to decide how close they want to be, right, like, back. It comes back to the agency is like at some point we can still express that I really, really want that and we can demand like I do want, like friendly, cordial, like that's the bottom line. If you walk in the front door and I say hey, journey, and you just look at me and walk away like OK, no, like I do have a, I do need you to say hey, dad, or like hello, or like like, so you decide what your bottom line is. So I'm not. When I say like acceptance, that doesn't mean that there's no limits, so so I, so, so you come up with that and then you just say like all right, you also do have agency, though, to decide. I remember what, like I wanted to tell bad stories about my parents, so I I won't tell that story, but like.
Speaker 2:I feel like in some ways, I was. I didn't have a lot of autonomy for how close I would be emotionally to my parents when I was a kid and that felt I felt super trapped sometimes. So I think that like it's both, it's foster the environment where they want to be close to you and they know that if they need to boom, you're there ready. And also, maybe not in every moment, do they want that and let them have some of that freedom while knowing, like when you do turn to me, I'm going to be ready, I'm going to provide. Like I've shown you enough that like I'm ready to provide validation. I've also shown you that, like I can be validating and still hold very clear limits right, like that. Like being validating doesn't mean that I don't hold limits. Um, so you don't have to talk to me, but you definitely can't.
Speaker 2:You know, whatever, break your siblings stuff right like um, so yeah, I guess, like the it's, it's, it's, even think about it, think about it, not with a kid, just like a friend. If a friend, if you really want to be close to a friend and they seem to be getting quiet and distant around you, then I guess what's the best you can do? It's kind of the same right. It's like be validating, like, let them know, like that, that offer of, of, of connection, like, like, keep making bids for connection. And then what I tell parents is, I say, be very sensitive to any bid for connection that your kid makes. And they're going to be subtle. I think we're waiting for like this very mature, like hello, dad, would you be willing to talk to me about my friends and my plans for the future? Like, the bids for connection are going to be way more subtle. It'll be something like oh, today I found out that there's this new TikTok trend. Like, that's a bid for connection. Take it. And I tell parents like, like, whenever there's a or, they're like hey, dad, can you come and look at this, can you come and help me with this? Any bid for connection, I tell parents accept it, make sure that you can accept it. 85 of the time.
Speaker 2:I remember zach uh, our mentor, what he said. He was like mentor when he had teenage boys. When I was in grad school. He was like I realize now I just have to show up whenever they're ready for me. He said maybe it'll be like 1230 in the morning. I just got back from a hockey game. I had a long day with back-to-back-to-back-to-back meetings and then suddenly I walk into my son's room to say goodnight and then he'll say something and he'll be like I got to take it. He's like I just got, I'm exhausted, I have a 6 am meeting, but he's like when it comes, you've just got to take it. Like you have to decide. Is that important to you? And with a teenage kid, when they make a bid for connection A, just have your antenna out looking for anything that could be interpreted as a bid for connection. And when it comes, you've got to take 85% of those.
Speaker 1:That's an arbitrary number, but like it's just, I just mean to say a lot.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. Um Kimmy, any further questions? No, this has been great, this is I love. I love like hearing what parents would naturally do, like I could could so see hearing what parents would naturally do, like I could could so see myself doing all the things that you talk about parents not shouldn't do, right, like trying to convince. I mean, I do it with my two year old and he hasn't even just started making a sentence, you know. So I love that. I love that balance too, because when you think of, oh, okay, I should be a validating parent that sometimes could feel like, well, then I have to accept that they're going to do drugs and be on their phone and be nice and then listen to their feelings and just be super permissive. But I like the distinction of being emotionally validating while setting pretty clear and firm and consistent contingencies around. Well, if you do this, then we're going to do this, setting those limits. So, yeah, I just loved it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is really important work. I hope that at some point, kibi, you'll get to talk to people about your idea, your plan, because there's such a need. I think there's such a need for parents getting support and, like I said at the very beginning, a lot of clinicians don't want to do that work. It's hard work and if you don't have good tools and you're not well-equipped to support families, then you end up doing to parents the exact same thing you're telling parents not to do to kids, and I'll catch myself. I'll be meeting with the parents and I'm trying to change their mind in order to change their behavior. I'm like, wait, wait. I said I cannot be doing the thing to you that I'm telling you not to do to your kid. I'm like we got to stop. I was like I've told you what I think is going to be helpful, and so now my contingency is until you implement one of these strategies, we're not going to meet again. So you call me once you've implemented one of these strategies consistently for at least one week, and then we'll meet again, right, rather than me trying to persuade you. And so, yeah, I just think like there are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for the kids who are really struggling. It's hard to find those resources. There's very few therapists who work with parents like that right, there's very few who do that work. It can feel sometimes scary. It's especially hard when you yourself are like in your 20s and you're talking to, like you know parents who are twice your age about their teenager, that you're only like seven years older than they're going to be. Like who are you Like, don't? So I think having something like what you're creating, kibbe, I think is going to like meet such a massive need that I see in schools, I see it in clinics, I see it in hospitals that, like, parents are underserved and the reality is parents have so much fear themselves. The reason they're overreacting is because it's almost like, for many of them it's trauma. Like the most traumatic thing that some of these parents have seen was like coming home to their kid, like passed out from medicine or coming in to see like, like, that is so scary, and so the parents have their own fear. The parents have a lot of shame, too, of people judging them. When you take your kid to a hospital, a lot of people do. They'll judge you, which is so unfortunate. Like like it's not, it is not parents fault.
Speaker 2:Back to your first question, jacqueline. Is it the environment? Is the parents? It's not. And yet a lot of times society like, oh, what did you do to end up with a kid who's's X, y, z behavior? It's like like I have four kids. I raised them all the same and they came out really different, right Like and.
Speaker 2:And there's also a lot of stigma where, like, if you live in a building and you and your kid are yelling or your kid will sometimes get really dysregulated, all of the neighbors can hear it and they'll just be like whoa, like let's not talk to that neighbor and like, don't let my kids go play at their place. There's that stigma. There's also like parents, it's also tough because they've typically, by the time that they recognize that they need help too, they've probably had a lot of treatment failure. They themselves lack the skills to manage these difficult situations. They're skills to manage these difficult situations. They're walking on eggshells because they're not totally sure what's setting their kids off, right Like. Once you explain to them that, like, trying to change their kid's mind, to change their behavior, is a problem, they're like, oh, but they didn't know before. They're just like in their mind they just feel like sometimes my kid just explodes and they can't quite explain why, or that my kid will just like run out of the house and leave and they won't come back for two days. I don't even know where they are. They turn off their phone. I can't access them. I call their friends. I don't know where they're couch surfing. Are they sleeping on the street, like so the parents.
Speaker 2:Then it is really hard because sometimes kids do things that doesn't make sense and they're not communicating. So parents have a lot of their own fear and then a lot of their grief. Right, like parents, when their kid are first born they're not thinking like, oh, one day I'm going to take my kid to a residential program because of X, y, z behavior, right Like it's. There's a lot of grief in what they expected and wanted for their relationship with their kid and their life of their kid and there's just not a lot of people there to provide that support for everything from, like the parents, trauma to their grief, to their the stigma in society, to the different expectations. It's so hard for parents because school has a certain set of expectations and their own parents, right the grandparents and society and religious community, and like there's just all this pressure that's put on parents, and so I think having resources like coming up with solutions like what you are doing K be, I think, is going to meet such an important need.
Speaker 3:Thank you, and with people are looking, you know, to talk more to you or to look into what you provide or any other resources you want to share.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think if people are in California and they're looking for, if they think like, yeah, I think I could benefit from a few sessions, cause, again, I don't require require it. When a parent, when a kid, comes to therapy with me, we don't require them to like do parent coaching the entire six months that I'm doing DBT with their kid, but rather DBT meaning dialectical behavior therapy, but rather to say why don't you commit to meeting with me for sessions? Commit to meeting with me for sessions and I'll explain to you these strategies like how to understand your kid, why they ended up where they are and what you can do about it. How to validate, teach you like practical tools for validating, teaching you how to come up with like contingencies and how to hold those consistently and communicate them clearly. How to come up with like behavioral reinforcement plans Like let's do, do this, let's meet for four times and then we'll figure out if you want to continue, and then at least you know that we have rapport. I understand you, I understand your kids.
Speaker 2:So, even if we stop and everything's cool and then, like two or three months later, something happens with your kid and now they're in crisis. When you reach out to me. You're not reaching out to a stranger. You're reaching out to someone who has context for your family, but what? What ends up happening instead is the parents don't talk to the therapist, don't talk to the therapist, then the kids in crisis, and then they reach out and this is a total stranger. They're like who, like, who are you? You don't know me, I don't know you, but we're also in crisis, so there's no time to figure that out so that you can like, like, feel compassion for me instead. Yeah, and so like that dynamic. So a lot of times it's like just do like four or six sessions. If you find it helpful, you can choose to continue, but at least you've got that in your pocket and one day, if you need to, you can come back to it.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Well, little helpers, I'm going to set a contingency you give us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and we'll put out another episode. I know sometimes it can be hard to get around to it and think about what to say, but you could always repair if you haven't done a five-star rating before and give us one now and stick with us for another episode. Thank you so much, marcus. I'm sure you will be back again. We love having you here and we'll see you all in a couple of weeks.
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