A Little Help For Our Friends
A Little Help For Our Friends
Season 4 Wrap up: From feeling lost to...a little less lost
Well, this year has been trying, to say the least. From losing a beloved pet, coping with cancer, and career transitions, we open up about the challenges we've had to overcome throughout season 4. In this episode, we recap the season and reflect on the strategies we used to rebuild our resilience amidst turbulence. We also dive into how our struggles impacted our friendship, forcing us to face deeper questions about unconditional love. We also remember how much family, friends, and other loved ones play such a huge role in our wellbeing, the inspiration for Kibby's new venture KulaMind. We'll return for Season 5 in a few weeks after Jacqueline gets settled in her New York life!
Resources:
- Dr. Kibby McMahon is opening a few spots for supporting loved ones of people with mental illness. Little Helper fans of this podcast will get a 20% discount. Apply here
- If you have a loved one with mental or emotional problems, co-host Dr. Kibby McMahon can help. Kibby's coaching program KulaMind offers individual support on demand, skills and resources to help people care for loved ones with mental illness. She only takes a select few clients at a time, so apply here if you're interested. Listeners of the podcast get a special discount! Contact her at kibby@kulamind.com to learn more.
- For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
- Follow us on Instagram: @ALittleHelpForOurFriends
Hey, little helpers, welcome back. This is going to be our season four finale, so typically what we do on finale episodes is kind of a retrospective of the year, and Kibbe and I were just sitting here talking about what a year it's been. I mean, for me it started off really hard and then got really great. Kibbe, how would you say yours has been?
Speaker 2:Also very, very hard. And then parts of it are great and parts of it are still hard. And then parts of it are great and parts of it are still hard, but yeah, solid.
Speaker 1:B plus. Yeah, and you know it's interesting doing. We do these retrospectives in part to, you know, update you, but also because we look back at the episodes we did and a lot of the times they reflect what was going on with our own lives and a lot of times that means that there's been some healing since then and so it can be kind of cool to see where we were and then, where we are now and how we kind of dealt with those times. I mean, I know for me, for instance, the Loving and Losing Pets episode was, you know, coincided with a tragedy in my life that still, honestly, really sucks and is upsetting.
Speaker 1:And you know, kibbe, you've talked about cancer. I don't even know if I said that my dad was diagnosed with cancer this year as well. So, um, that's been hard. And you know just family members going through stuff and how that affects us and how that. You know just family members going through stuff and how that affects us and how that, you know, relates to the theme of the show. It's all been on display this year. I mean, kibbe, what have you, what do you kind of notice as you look back?
Speaker 2:What a year. You pretty much summarized it. I mean, we always talk about how one of our major values is being adventurous and saying yes to things and doing things that scare you, and I think that this year really tested a lot of that for me. I'm usually very like cavalier about health things. I'm usually very healthy and if anything feels amiss or go wrong, I'm one of the first ones to be like eh, it's fine, I'm going to be fine.
Speaker 2:And this was the case where it's like a nightmare, where I'm a healthy 38 year old woman with no family history of this particular cancer and something that I thought might just be normal turned out to be breast cancer. So I think that was like one of the major, like one of the major you know, challenges of you know, when I say oh, like, let's not think of the worst case scenario and catastrophic thinking, I feel like this was definitely, definitely threw me for the loop. And also to do like in terms of my career just changing from academia that I've been so familiar with to jumping to industry and starting my own company it was a lot of like scary unknowns all at once.
Speaker 1:So yeah, you've had a bonanza of a bad year. I mean, that doesn't mean that there weren't high points too, but in terms of just challenging you on everything you thought was safe, this year has come at you and come for you, and I just can't imagine how difficult that's been.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the one of the hardest parts emotionally, I mean, besides for the the obvious scary part that I've talked about of getting a diagnosis of cancer, which you know it's one of those unimaginable things. Everyone makes jokes about it, about like, oh, it's not cancer. But when you get that cancer diagnosis you really are confronted with your mortality, right, You're like I'm dying. I'm actually like I have a terminal illness and you get very little information at first, so you just sit with that, with that news. But for me, emotionally, I think the hardest part was the challenge to my identity as someone who is always productive and helpful or, you know, capable. You know, just like the doer identity. You know just like the doer um identity. That was really hard, from not only the professional standpoint but also in relationships when I couldn't like, when I basically had to ask for help and be in the position of I don't have any capacity to give out or think of other people's needs. Um, that was a really rough, rougher than I thought.
Speaker 1:And that coincided with difficulties with our relationship too, of sort of me not knowing what was going on and you having these like core sort of schemas in your life really, really challenged and throwing you into a dark place. Yeah, I don't know how would you kind of describe what happened from your perspective.
Speaker 2:I think I think the core thing was the core beliefs part is hitting home right now. I actually think I didn't realize what was happening until like much later, after our conversations, I think. You know the details in general were like I was just like in kind of like a survival mode. I had just gotten my diagnosis and didn't know what to do or say to people. And we got in an argument because I was just like overwhelmed with yeah, I guess I was just like overwhelmed. I didn't know how to ask for anything from anyone.
Speaker 2:So I was just kind of like in a freeze mode and I think the core belief that I realize I had now was that you didn't actually care about me except for what I can do for you, um, which is a core belief I had. I realized that I had in many relationships, um, that like if you really got down to it, I thought that no one actually loves me, that they only love me for what I can do for them or the support I can give or the role I play in their life, which is like about this in relationships where it's a give and take, right, so it's it's not like that's crazy to think about that someone loves you for what the good things you bring. But I was seeing this as like really conditional, where I was just like they fundamentally don't like care about me. Um yeah, just what I can do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I mean obviously, like what we give to relationships is an important component, um, but I guess you know, feeling like that as the totality of somebody's interest in you would be really tough. I mean, do you want to talk about where that comes from in you?
Speaker 2:I, uh, both my parents express a lot of love towards me, so that's why sometimes I didn't really recognize it. But my mom's love sometimes felt very like as if it's more to get attention or, um, something from me and that's what's feeding her, right, it's, it's growing up. I felt like she was less concerned about my needs and more about, like, what she needed from me and the world at the time. So I automatically, you know, felt suspicious towards that. But then, like, talking more to my therapist and thinking back, my dad was much more absent than I remember. I remember him as being very loving, but my therapist was actually reminding me this is why it's good to have therapy was actually reminding me of how, you know, kind of like hands off he actually was and only kind of paid attention to me when I was like achieving something.
Speaker 2:Um, she gave. She gave this story that I completely forgot about and didn't really register. But when I was about 15, I was seeing her and, uh, we like none of my parents had paid for the therapy bill in a while, um, and so, uh, she raised that issue and I, I guess I brought it up with my parents and the next session I came in to the session with a blank check from my dad and didn't know how to fill it out, like I didn't know what to do with it. So I brought it to the therapist to like help me figure out how to like write a check. And I mean even just saying that I'm like that's not a big deal. But for her she was so struck she's never I mean, she it was like more unusual for this kid to just like not like the parents, just being like yeah, yeah, fine, just, yeah, just figure it out.
Speaker 1:It's a sort of a symbol of disinterest that they'd just be like. I don't even know how much we owe, yeah, I'm just taking it.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I'm not going to show you how to, you know, write a check or, you know, look at the bill, just like go, go deal with it. Um, so yeah, I think that definitely formed a lot of my core beliefs and I remember even just like you know, it's kind of like processing that in our relationship when you showed me a picture of the painting that you made, I remember actually feeling like surprised because I was. I think it was like still like this kind of fresh new processing of like oh my God, I think she actually cares about me, which you know like is kind of embarrassing to say, but I think I really I really didn't realize how much I underestimated your and other people's care for me yeah, I mean, it's an interesting kind of collision, I think, of Corpley.
Speaker 1:I've been working through um, you know, I was the youngest child by a lot and my family was together like my parents. Parents were, were married and I was very like, doted on and, um, being cute. It was all I really needed to do to get my needs met. Um, or, I mean even not being cute, I just had parents who met my needs. You know, um, but I did have a very difficult relationship with my older sister, and I still do, and I I sometimes notice these patterns with like, I don't want to say you're an older woman, but like slightly older women are like women in mentor roles, um, where I think I younger sister myself a little bit and then I don't't know, maybe don't present myself as seriously as I should, or um, yeah, I don't know, I'm kind of working with it.
Speaker 1:But I mean, I was also going through a period where when we had this you know, these talks, I was like so evaluated by um applying for internship and the internet, and um, my sister and I don't even know who else, I just remember feeling like I'm so sick of being evaluated, and so I, you know, I feel like there's this like negative evaluation and that, and it's an interesting thing, going through grad schools where I don't know if you felt this way, but there's a kind of like a chronic I don't know if insecurity is the right word or like lack of something doesn't I don't feel fully formed because I'm still in this position where I'm evaluated, trained, um, it's not my full responsibility, I don't have to take the wheel supervised. It's this kind of amateurish, adolescent, extended role like into your thirties. So I often don't feel as confident or have the self-respect maybe that somebody else would. And it's very easy to sort of see myself as a trainee, because I am, but like a life trainee in many ways, um, and so I I don't know like there's something not very adult feeling, so I don't know.
Speaker 1:I mean, cause Zach, our advisor and DBT team, would be like wanting me to have more confidence, and I'm kind of like I don't know how to have more confidence, like I'm literally in the role of child here still, um, and I don't know I'm. I'm literally in the role of child here still, and I don't know. I'm interested in seeing how that shifts as well. I mean, do you feel like with your beliefs about people not really loving you like. Have you noticed a shift into believing that more, or is it still like something?
Speaker 2:you have to just sort of verbally tell yourself Hmm, and do you remember to tell yourself, yeah, I definitely feel like I can, can, I'm still working on it. I definitely feel like this is still a work in progress. Um, I definitely I'm letting that in more like what that, what that feels like to actually just be loved, but I'm still confused about well, I still don't believe that there should, there is, necessarily unconditional love with with adults, right, like we talk about that too. Where, like, where is that balance between knowing that people care about you because you are good to them, the way you treat them, the things that you do for them, um, and also just being loved, just for who you are, right? So I, I, I don't know where I fall in that and constantly trying to figure that out, or at least, like you know, going back and forth in my own heart.
Speaker 1:I just I, you know it's interesting. Like that concept I noticed with multiple of my friends who have had family relationships that were difficult. Like I'm very comfortable with the idea that love is conditional because I know that I receive unconditional love from my family and that was never really in question growing up. But with multiple other people I can think of there's been a maybe either like a lack of trust in unconditional love or a real clinging to and desire for unconditional love in relationships where that's not quite possible.
Speaker 1:So I'm not really even talking about you right now, it's just that you just brought that up but, and I wonder if this I mean I'm sure this happens in relationships with a lot of chronic invalidation right Going on and like people with BPD, where it's like I can't name the person who unconditionally loves me. Maybe they do, but it's not in a way that I necessarily recognize as like it's not in the way that I need.
Speaker 2:And so I don't know, like how possible is it for people to never quite have that, and will they always then be parents or caregivers? And then we internalize them, right, like what our parents say about us becomes our view of ourselves, our internal monologue. And then if our parents like, ideally love us no matter what, then we love ourselves no matter what and we could go out in the world and accept that, yeah, if you don't show up to work or don't do your job, they're not going to love you unconditionally. You have to do some stuff, right, like um, that's really like the funny disconnect with entitlement, where, where people are expecting to be treated as, as like the gods that our parents thought that we were, um by everybody. But there is that there is that like, okay, I feel unconditional love for myself and then, knowing that that's not the way the rest of the world works, right, is that? Isn't that what?
Speaker 1:we're supposed to do? Yeah, no, now I'm thinking about narcissists and the ones that actually were pedestaled by their parents. I wonder if a belief is formed that the only reason they are loved is because they're, if they're being so amazing and awesome, right, and they're told that by their parents but yeah, but I guess we've already talked about this right, like, but their themness isn't what's loved. Yeah, and then yeah, yeah, mm-hmm, yeah and then yeah, yeah, I don't know. I've just like, I've been talking to a friend of mine who I can tell you know, she really, really wants unconditional love from a partner and thought she had it and was broken up with, and it's like very, very sort of devastated and there's a sense of betrayal, where it's kind of like and from my perspective, like I don't necessarily want to be unconditionally loved by a partner, because I think that's what keeps any level of passion in a relationship is when you, you have to behave well you have to work for it.
Speaker 2:To some degree, that person can leave you. Yeah, I mean, in earlier episodes, earlier years, we've talked about how you struggle with commitment and intimacy and feeling like you are capable of loving someone and you're compensating for that pushed you deeper into a relationship that you didn't feel was healthy in the end. Yeah, it's bizarre, but now, like I would, I mean making the judgment call that like you're doing well in this relationship. So how did you get through that?
Speaker 1:I think that what I called commitment issues was probably more of a developmental stage. I feel like a lot of the things that bothered me in other guys and that I would kind of pick at in an ROCD kind of way, that Jason doesn't exhibit those things and I think that's sort of helpful to me, like I'm sure I could still kind of turn against a lot of guys. But I think really it was just that the stage I was in for a long time was incompatible with a relationship and my body knew it and my brain knew it, even if I consciously, you know, thought I could have it all, even if I consciously, you know, thought I could have it all. And I think I just sort of sabotaged relationships because I that wasn't actually the value that was most important to me at the time. I mean, in my twenties my core values were curiosity, exploration and adventure. Values were curiosity, exploration and adventure and kind of getting to know my own power in a way, my own possibilities, like how I could exert myself on the world. And I think I was best able to meet those values single dating around, meeting people, meeting all sorts of people, discovering what I liked and didn't like in men and I don't know that it would have been.
Speaker 1:I mean because if I look at my type back then, it was like rich, powerful, larger than life personalities, and that's because I saw those shiny stars and was like, okay, great If I have, if I'm conjoined with them, then I'll probably have even greater exploration and adventure and more power. And you know, great If I have, if I'm conjoined with them, then I'll probably have even greater exploration and adventure and more power. And you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I am not. My values have shifted into just a different domain and I think what's most important for me now is building I'm not. My brain isn't like finding every single detail that is irritating about the other person and then pushing them away from me. I mean, that's my best guess yeah, so do you to?
Speaker 2:what are? What are your answers now to the questions you've had before, which is like what if getting into something stable and comfortable and nice doesn't have the spark or doesn't have the excitement or passion that you love so much.
Speaker 1:So meaning like if somebody else were to get into a relationship that feels safe and comfortable but maybe doesn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember a long time ago you were like, you know, oh, sometimes that like commitment or that like more content, secure relationship, I'm afraid of like that the passion would. It wouldn't have that same spark or passion, right, like when people ask those questions of oh gosh, like do I like the infatuation or excitement, or is it a problem with this person? Or what would you say now in terms of like what it feels like to be in a stable relationship?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it feels good. I don't feel like I'm lacking passion, which I think is a what a lot where a lot of people get confused. I mean I don't think this relationship would have interested me back then. So if I had met Jason back then I probably would have. I mean I don't think I would feel the kind of quote passion that I feel now.
Speaker 1:But I think a lot of people look at passion. It's like they want to be distracted from their lives, like their relationship is supposed to be a drug that helps them avoid other feelings, and that's not what I'm necessarily looking for anymore. So I mean I'm still worried that in 10 years, jason, I aren't going to want to touch each other anymore, like I'm definitely looking for anymore. So I mean I'm still worried that in 10 years, jason and I aren't going to want to touch each other anymore. Like I'm definitely worried about that, but that's just I don't know that would be the case with any relationship. I just wonder if people who are, you know, in relationships where they don't feel that passion, I wonder if there's something in them that they still need to explore. It's a bit of a hypothesis, because that's what it was for me and being with Paul, I mean I think like I don't. I don't regret that, I kind of regret the effect it had on him. You know me being actually really ambivalent about what I valued the most. I. That took a huge toll on him and I, you know, I'm sorry about that I didn't have anywhere else to go, I didn't have any other. I couldn't, I didn't have the answers in myself, you know, and he wanted to stick around for it. So that's what happened.
Speaker 1:But you know, I think being with Paul was a I was in a values transitional mode that made him wildly insecure and also made me wildly insecure, insecure and also made me wildly insecure, and I just sort of buckled down and stayed and you know, I loved a lot about him and but I think on the other side of that relationship I had learned that I did want to build, like I had learned. Actually, one of the reasons I'm staying in this is because I do want marriage, maybe not with this person, but I just I think I've, I think I've explored, I think I've played around enough and then I didn't really have trouble, like with commitment after that. But yeah, I think some people like they buckle down with the wrong person because they just they're like they're worried that there's nobody else out there and that makes me sad. But I hope that if they're doing that, it's with somebody who treats them well and who makes them feel valued and respected and wanted, because I see it go the other way way too often.
Speaker 1:Um, that I think maybe some other people it's like you, maybe you have a little bit more exploration to do in yourself and what you really want, and I don't know if there's some commitment issue, then I don't know if you need to go Like I worry about men sometimes who are 38 and still have commitment issues, cause I'm like do they really need to go have more adventures or do they need to like go sit on a mountain and figure those things out and work out their values? I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say that you know, we did a couple episodes recently on um dating BPD and um recovering from narcissistic abuse, which tended to be about um recovering from the effects of dating someone with narcissistic PD and I mean, I think the things that I got from that was, you know, we were just talking about passion and I love that you did say like I still feel passion with with Jason and I would say that when we, when we did those episodes on narcissistic abuse or BPD, it reminded me of the kind of passion that I would feel with dating someone with like a personality disorder. It's the passion of.
Speaker 2:It felt like more of a chase in this way of chasing something that you feel like will make you whole or validate you, like in the way that they say on validate on TikTok, yeah, exactly when it's like you're getting some kind of approval for your worth and who you are if you chase this person and I remember that was what I thought passion was, Cause I was like obsessing over certain guys or you know getting into all these fights and you know being devalued and you know pedestal, you know like the kind of like roller coaster, kind of like fiery relationship.
Speaker 2:But I realized that I was chasing them for reasons that were like if I get them then it would really mean that I'm like attractive and worthwhile and it's and it would prove that they like me because I have the, because I have special qualities over other potential women who like this person right. So it was like almost like a, like a badge of honor, whereas, like the passion I feel in my current relationship is like it's, it's way more of like a, like a burning ember, kind of like that cozy passion feeling that comes from like this is like my home kind of feeling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I still regularly forego social opportunities because I want to hang out with Jason. I mean I want to be around Jason all the time. I want to be on him all the time, touching him all the time, like I light up when I see his. You know, texts come through Like I, you know, I just I'm used to when people talk about passion, thinking of it as something painful. You know, I, I just I'm not fighting anymore.
Speaker 1:And nine times out of 10, whenever I hear a love song or a friend talk about their relationship or, uh, I watch a movie, I'm just like break up, just break up, it doesn't have to be this hard. I mean you would always tell me when I was with my last boyfriend, like it doesn't have to be this hard. And now that's me. I'm just like breakup doesn't have to be this hard. You feel like you can't communicate with him, breakup Cause. I'm just like there is something great out there for you, there, you know there is. I mean it doesn't have to be this hard. You can believe in it If you stop looking for nonsense.
Speaker 1:I mean I was looking for nonsense for a while and I don't blame myself. They were very exciting men and I love money, so you know that made complete sense. But I don't love it as much as peace and I just don't think I was interested in peace back then. I just wanted to be excited all the time. I wanted to feel bigger things. And peace is nice, it's calm, it's not neon colored and, yeah, you can, you can have that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I was listening to like a like someone sing a song that was like how can I love you if you won't let me, then don't. Why are you writing a song about this? Just break up and move on to somebody better.
Speaker 2:Like yeah, yeah, yeah, like prioritizing peace.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I don't talk about this, as you know that often publicly, but you know, since it's buried deep into this um episode, I will.
Speaker 2:I feel like I've prioritized that piece um with my company because um I, one of my co-founders and I like had really good dynamic um in many ways and he had a lot of like the drive and intensity and confidence and um, a lot of like the qualities I tend to be like drawn to Um.
Speaker 2:But then there were some of the downsides of those qualities and then I think I just realized that I spend so much of my time and energy trying to be useful and contribute to someone else's dreams and ambitions and to be that narcissistic supply that we've talked about. And when that all came to a head like there was problems in that, I other times in my life and even in this relationship I, you know, just talk myself through it or just kept going or got angry about it and didn't really do much about it. But in this case we decided to like go our separate ways. I took over as CEO. So I think I'm really proud of myself that I did what you're talking about, like prioritizing peace instead of the more dramatic like up and down rollercoaster part which was new to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean there's no cause, it doesn't lead anywhere. Good, I'm all about peace. These days I'm like I'm pretty boundaried, you know. I mean what I let into my life like it just has to be like respectful, kind, treat me well, you know, contribute to a sense of of peace, cause I had so many years of not peace, so many years of and I don't mean like terrible things happening in my life, but I mean I just you know I, when I was on the Bachelor, like one of the things I said to producers I was like I collect people, I collect interesting people, and it wasn't that I didn't like them.
Speaker 1:I think people saw that as sociopathic, like oh, you're just you know you hang out with people just because of you know they have some interesting qualities, like I liked them, they I loved being interested. But you know a lot of like really interesting people are also complicated and I'm I'm still willing to be friends with interesting people. But I'm just like leave the complications that you know at the door and then pick them up when you leave and you know and that you know that's just how it works and and, and I think a lot of that is because of jason and and seeing that like, oh, my life can just be nice my life can be nice.
Speaker 1:It can be peaceful. I don't have to feel like an idiot all the time, I don't have to feel insecure all the time. I can just like, I can just sort of, you know, to a certain be and there's a lot of confidence in that, and I think the next step is to get that with career. You know, it's like if I can really pull off having a private practice and managing that and like making my own money. I mean, speaking of extended adolescence, me being poor for this fucking long, I still don't feel like an adult. You know I can't take care of myself Like I can't. I mean I can but I can't like. So I think I'm just looking to be the grownup that I want to be. I think that's, you know, part of the next chapter.
Speaker 1:And you know it came after, like, yeah, a really tough year where I tried to go off Lexapro. And for any of you out there who are trying to go off your meds, I salute you. I mean, kibbe, I think you were in a similar situation. I mean it sucks, like I mean I'm so pro medication but for some of us it's really hard to go off them and it was for me, and I think some medications are harder than others. Lexapro is notorious, but, and so is Effexor, yeah, yeah, um, but yeah, you know, I was like pretty, pretty depressed, pretty feeling very evaluated, feeling very raw.
Speaker 1:My dad got diagnosed with cancer, my mom has health issues, my sister has mental health issues, my cat died, Um, jason had a huge career hit right when I moved in. We had a rocky start moving in, um, you know, I got placed for internship in in New York, which, on the one hand, is great, on the other hand, meant that we were going to be long distance and I'm in my mid thirties, so it's just like a lot of shit that piled up at once. And you know, I think, like I'm I kind of don't necessarily feel the full impact of things right away, which I don't think is necessarily bad, like I don't think when my dad got diagnosed with cancer, I needed to like spiral into doom, um, because he his diagnosis was, you know, it's prostate cancer, but very, very aggressive and metastasized, and so it's kind of one of these things where he could be fine for a really long time or he could not be fine and I was sort of holding off on freaking out. Um, but it's starting to.
Speaker 1:You know, my parents were 40 when they had me and I'm experiencing that reality of like they're not going to be around forever and my family's going to break up. And I'm experiencing that reality of like they're not going to be around forever and my family's going to break up and I'm going to have to watch my parents weaken. And you know, especially my dad is like not weak, I mean, he's very, very fit and there's just a. It's a painful thing to start to, I don't know to start to see, and you know, the last time I saw them they both looked great, they both were in great shape.
Speaker 1:So it's easy to kind of put off those concerns now, but there were times when we thought it had metastasized to his bone, which would have been catastrophic, and so this year has been, you know, checkered for sure, um, but now it's in a really good place, you know, because, like my dad's, in a more stable condition. So, as my mom, um, I'm not like working, so I'm like on paid summer vacation, which is fucking awesome. All I want to do is like art and hobbies and reading, and it's just really nice, because I remember when I was younger, getting time off and being like why can't I be productive, like why can't I do anything of value with my time, and I'm just like watching bullshit TV and you know like I'm going on reality Steve tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Nice, nice.
Speaker 1:So that'll be good. And I have to like binge watch a whole season because I just haven't wanted to watch TV and that feels really really good. So I don't know, I mean that's yeah. I don't know, I mean that's been the course of of my year and now I'm I'm jumping into a big unknown of internship and, yeah, long distance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there were so many changes for you in this past year. What do you think has been like the one or two most helpful strategies that you've done to pull yourself through that depression? I mean, you're saying that there's some things that are situational, right, like things were hard, and then you know, like naturally have resolved or gotten a little bit better. But have there been things that you've done from like taking care of your own mental health perspective, that you found really effective?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean one was going back on Lexapro. I mean they just like immediately turned a lot of things around, which is somewhat situational. But yeah, I at some point it was actually kind of a painful decision Like do I keep fighting this withdrawal or do I kind of give up in a sense and go back to it and I'm worried that it's causing weight gain and I don't know. But that helped a lot. I think I'm not naturally that big of a catastrophizer. I think I used to be pretty bad about that, but I've developed trust in myself that I can get through things and I've always been pretty good at change. So change itself doesn't terrify me and doesn't like I mean some change obviously upsets me. But I think with my parents' health there's a true horror at the thought of loss. But I kind of was like I don't know that I need to confront that yet. I don't know that I need to go there. I know it's a place I'll go at some point, but I don't know that now needs to be the time and I I think I'm a little bit more adept at doing that than some other people are. I think some people get kind of plunged into the horror by, you know, because they immediately start catastrophizing.
Speaker 1:I, you know, I also think that I I kind of let myself I don't know how to say this I almost like let myself off the hook for how I feel, like I try not to beat myself up too badly for how I feel. I mean how I feel Like I try not to beat myself up too badly for how I feel. I mean, you know, ironically, I think the hardest example of this was Scipio dying, because that was very hard to not beat myself up for how I felt, because I would feel very guilty if I wasn't completely sad, but I would also feel kind of embarrassed for being completely sad, and that one I kind of had to practice. Like you're just going to feel how you feel and you know that you loved him and that's all, that's all, that's the end of the story. But yeah, in general I mean I try, I try not to shame myself for being, you know, upset or not upset or stressed, and just kind of tell myself I'll work it out.
Speaker 1:Like I mean I, you know I really should have gotten more done with my dissertation by now, but I'm going to work it out. You know what I mean. Like I, I have the time and it would have. I would have made it easier on myself if I had gotten the entire thing done by now, but I didn't, and so what's the point of beating myself up for that? I don't know. That's probably the number one strategy that I use. And then I took a lot of time to be by myself this year and that was really healing and nice. I mean, I went to Chile by myself, like I think I just needed to cocoon a little bit and focus on well-being.
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 1:And simplify my life. Nice, I don't know, what coping strategies have you used Working?
Speaker 2:more Kitty, just working, being useful again. Yeah, that's not Just returning back to a place where I'm useful to other people, sure, yeah, no, I mean like I kid, but there's some truth to that. I mean the times when I've been laid up, you know, through chemo, or I mean there's, I think, definitely having the support of my family, has been huge. Um, learning to lean on the people around me and accept help and fight the thought that I'm being useless. If I'm like just lying in bed and resting, um, and really taking like savoring the moments with my kid, with Jackson and Alex, like when I have like just a nice cuddle time, just like drinking that in and appreciating it, which I do. But it's, you know, like I get caught up with the work stuff and I think that I really do feel better and less depressed when I'm working. And I don't mean just like you know, maybe, hardcore, you know burning myself out, but I like being productive, I like giving to the world outside of me, I like working on a project and figuring something out, and I can get caught up in the, the chase of the career, like what am I going to do with this? How am I going to be successful. But it was nice to kind of heart, like touch back into what I actually really care about, which is, um, you know, supporting relationships and supporting, you know, family caregivers of people with mental illness. Right, like you know, we do this podcast. Sometimes I forget, like the, the, the, the motivation behind it. But watching Alex, my husband, take care of me and be my caregiver during this process, um, it's, it's been really interesting, because I'm so used to identifying in the other role of being the one caring for someone, role of being the one caring for someone, but watching him have to juggle being a parent and his job and then taking care of me while, like, staying strong for me during hard times, and um, has really reminded me like, oh, wow, this is, this is such a a place where people need more support and awareness of how difficult it can be. Because, I mean, I just give him full credit. He just has been done a stellar job and I wouldn't I would be so much more depressed and down on myself and probably sick if it weren't for him. But he just is like really like generously been there for me, taking me to my chemousions, taking care of the baby when I'm completely out right and just like not complaining or he has so much to complain about. He has so much.
Speaker 2:But he's just been such a rock for me and at the same time the other day we were talking he was like I'm feeling anxious for some reason and I don't know why, and of course we could like be like oh yeah, you have a lot of work stuff. But then we realized that I have another surgery coming up and I've been worried about it in different ways, but I don't. We realized that he wasn't aware that, how worried he was and anxious he was in anticipation of that. And we're saying, like how it's so the attention goes to me, the identified patient about like oh, this is going to be hard for me, but it's hard for the people around me. It's just as easier to forget that it's hard for the people around me. So it's just like just remembering that illness and health and happiness is such a community thing and helping people see that and helping people through that is something that really like motivates me.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Yeah, have you okay. So my mind is going in two different directions. One is like I think having a sense of mastery, value and purpose is incredibly healing, and it sounds like you're connecting with that a lot right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah like not useful, you know, like having to kind of exist far away from the things that you're proud of in yourself or that you're you normally think are what give you love. Do you feel like you've been able to contend with that part of you and kind of like have compassion for the self that you are, that like doesn't need to be giving to other people all the time and doesn't need to be useful all the time and can just kind of be?
Speaker 2:Sure, sure so that's yeah definitely, definitely, I love myself unconditionally. Um, no, I mean again work in progress. I think, like I think now I am aware, more aware of this core belief and aware of how many situations I'm in that I feel like I have to, I have to earn and fight for people's care for me and attention to my needs. I'm aware of how pervasive it is now and I think, logically, I'm like oh, jacqueline actually cares about me. Think, logically, I'm like, oh, jacqueline actually cares about me. But then there's still a part of me that's like oh, I gotta earn that. Oh, my god, that. Oh, you know, like I could just do something helpful. Is she like, did she find me not helpful if I don't help her? Will she like, stop being my friend? You know, all that stuff just is still floating around there.
Speaker 1:So yeah, well, you don't, just is still floating around there.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, well, you don't have to do anything helpful. So how can I help?
Speaker 1:you in this next move to New York and next stage in your life. What can I do for you? Yeah, I mean not. Yeah, no, I'm good. Um, yeah, I mean that's. I do recognize that I've leaned on people in the past a lot and needed help, and I'd still do that with certain people. Um, just try to spread the wealth, but I really just want people to be nice to me and then, and like me, people who are nice to me and like me I like pretty automatically, like I mean it's like my standards are pretty low, you know. And when I say like, leave complications at the door, I don't mean like mental health complications or anything like that. I just mean like, if you're, you know, like relational complications. Um, just be nice to me, like me, that's all I need. Um, so how does it feel to be a CEO and to start a company? Because I would feel very bad, because business is business, is a tech is my absolute worst nightmare, cause I came from there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's hard. It's hard being the CEO. I mean, I I've always wanted to start a company and I always wanted to start a company that worked on people's relationship, like improve people's relationships, make them feel less lonely, had some technology component to kind of, uh, do something more than what we can do in traditional therapy. Like I, you know, I just love the creativity of it, um, and I'm excited. I'm excited to to really like get in there more and, you know, work with more clients, to help more people with these skills that we know Basically, to help them manage their relationship with their loved ones and their own mental health and to be, like, good caregivers and good support systems, like that's really I'm really excited and I'm just, like you know, doing a shout out here because we'll be opening up some more um slots for that. So, so, more um available, uh, more availabilities for people who are interested in being clients and being, you know, getting our support in that way. But so I'll put a link in our show notes where people can um reach out if they're interested.
Speaker 2:But the CEO role is hard. It's really like really rubs up against my imposter syndrome, you know, constantly thinking I have to produce, otherwise, you know, disaster befalls and also there's like so much to do and, um, it's a man's world out there in like the startup tech world and uh, yeah, you could go in all sorts of like. The freedom is amazing, but also that's like, oh my God, we could do like a million different things. So it's hard on a day to day basis, but I feel like this was always something that I was going to do. Eventually. It's just sooner than I thought and I didn't think it was going to happen while I was getting treatment for breast cancer. So that's it. And with a two-year-old yeah, with a two year old too so it's really like I'm hoping like Phoenix rising from the ashes, like taking, taking what I got and running with it. So you know, like it is what it is.
Speaker 2:I had to just keep reminding myself about what I'm doing this for, because it's easy to get caught up on. How do you make money with this? How do grow like? How do we be successful? Right, it's sometimes just like okay, can we remember that? Remember that feeling of teaching someone a skill and seeing that change someone's life right, and seeing them say, oh my god, I actually learned how to communicate my boundaries to someone or actually like validated their feelings and the conversation went so different than other times that that, that feeling of like satisfaction, I just just want that more and more and more so just remembering that is is helpful. Going back to the basics that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, hats off. I would be like massively insecure if I tried to do this. Oh, I am, I'm massively insecure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just lean into it, you know. Yeah, sometimes.
Speaker 1:Kimmy will be like oh, I am, I'm massively insecure. Yeah, just lean into it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Sometimes Kimmy will be like I'm feeling anxious too. I'm like get those shit, I'd be-. Yeah, she's like that sounds hard. Yeah, you should be anxious about that. I don't know what to tell you here.
Speaker 1:Alrighty. Well, little helpers, we'll see you soon. Thank you for listening along and spread the word if you can. You know our episodes are. They don't have to be listened to in any kind of order. So we just hope we can be helpful for some of you out there. And again, if you can give us that five-star rating, that helps us grow. So we will see you later.
Speaker 1:By accessing this podcast, I acknowledge that the hosts of this podcast make no warranty, guarantee or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information featured in this podcast. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. This podcast and any and all content or services available on or through this podcast are provided for general, non-commercial informational purposes only and do not constitute the practice of medical or any other professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be considered or used as a substitute for the independent professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a duly licensed and qualified healthcare provider. In case of a medical emergency, you should immediately call Thank you such approval or endorsement.