S2, Ep 3: Should I or Shouldn't I Address Political/Social Issues in my Work?

Artists can do many things with their work to combat injustice: begin or contribute to larger conversations affecting people; bring light to an issue not being addressed by society; conceptualize a solution to a problem in a new way; etc. But some issues are so vast and large that even addressing it presents its own series of issues. One could enter a conversation with generations of artists having already laid the groundwork, requiring research and participation before engagement. A good question for artists to ask themselves is: am I the right person to bring this issue up? We will have two guests discuss the work it takes to address political and/or social issues in their practice and what considerations artists should do before entering new conversations with their work. 

Shayna Schlosberg is the Director of Operations + Strategy at Women of Color in the Arts. Before joining WOCA, Shayna was the managing director of The Catastrophic Theatre, a highly acclaimed experimental theatre companyvin Houston, TX. From 2017-2021, she led the organization’s administrative and producing operations. Prior to her work at The Catastrophic Theatre, Shayna was the Associate General Manager at the Alley Theatre, where she played an integral part in expanding the theatre’s international programming, with a focus on Latin American theatre. Ms. Schlosberg has a BFA in Drama from New York University’s Tisch School of the Arts and an MM in International Arts Management from Southern Methodist University and HEC Montreal. She has served on grant panels for organizations including the National Endowment for the Arts (2018) and Houston Arts Alliance (2017)(2019). She is a graduate of the National Association of Latino Arts and Culture’s Advocacy Leadership Institute, Women of Color in the Arts’ Leadership Through Mentorship program, and a 2020 New Leaders Council Fellow. She is a member of Arts Accountability Houston and sits on the Advisory Committee for the Houston BIPOC Arts Network Fund. Ms. Schlosberg served in the Peace Corps in Armenia from 2010-2012.

Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton is an internationally-known writer, educator, activist, performer, and the first Black Poet Laureate of Houston, Texas. Formerly ranked the #2 Best Female Performance Poet in the World (PSI), Her recent poetry collection, Newsworthy, garnered her a Pushcart nomination, was named a finalist for the 2019 Writer’s League of Texas Book Award, and received honorable mention for the Summerlee Book Prize. Its German translation, under the title "Berichtenswert," was released in Summer 2021 by Elif Verlag.  The opera, Marian’s Song, for which she wrote the libretto, debuted in 2020 to roaring reviews. 

Honored by Houston Business Journal as a part of their 2021 40 Under 40 class, D.E.E.P. has been a finalist for Texas State Poet Laureate, a Kennedy Center Citizen fellowship, and the prestigious Breadloaf Retreat. Her work has been highlighted and studied in Canada, England, New Zealand, and Germany. She performed as a part of the Kennedy Center's Arts Across America event. Named a Houston Artist Commissioning Project award winner by the Society for the Performing Arts Houston,. her second book, Black Chameleon, is set to release in 2023 by Henry Holt & Co. A storybook opera, entitled "Lula, the Mighty Griot", which reinterprets one of the stories from Black Chameleon is set to debut in Fall 2021 with the Houston Grand Opera. Currently, she is a Resident Artist at the American Lyric Theater and Rice University. She lives and creates in Houston, TX. For more information visit www.LiveLifedeep.com

Music: "Ike is Gone" by Nick Gaitan

Transcript

Transcripción en español disponible aquí: https://fresharts.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/S2-E3-Transcript-Spanish.pdf

Reyes: Hello, and welcome to "Should I or Shouldn't I," a Fresh Arts podcast hosted by me, Reyes Ramirez, where we explore the decisions artists make every day to succeed in their creative practice. Hello, welcome. Welcome to this episode of the podcast by Fresh Arts, "Should I or Shouldn't I." This time, the question is, should I or shouldn't I address this political/social issue in my work? And the reason why we kinda formulated this question is because, one, artists just play different roles in different communities, whether it be that of the role of the artist, where they are inspired by and communicate with the community and through community. But with that comes a lot of issues, whether it be the political social issues that arise from working with communities, from being inspired by communities, from being in conversation with communities, and ultimately, what's being put in the work and how people process that work. And so this one, this kinda issue kinda goes more into the ethical, right, responsibilities of an artist. But before that, we have two guests here today who will discuss kind of those intricacies, those different details of that question. We have Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton, former Houston Poet Laureate, and now artist-in-residence at Rice, and all the other accolades I can't remember right now; with Shayna Schlosberg, who works with WOCA, Women Of Color in the Arts. I forgot the exact title role that you play, but I'm gonna give you-

Shayna Schlosberg: Titles don't matter.

Reyes: Oh, it's like, what I'm gonna do is I'll give y'all a chance to kinda introduce yourselves to the listeners. So Shayna, if you could please start.

Shayna: Sure, it's so nice to be in conversation with both of you and to be here. Yes, Reyes, as you were mentioning, I am working with Women of Color in the Arts, and my title, if we must, is Director of Operations and Strategy. I've been working at WOCA in that capacity for about a year now already. Prior to that, I was really just volunteering, organizing on behalf of WOCA, growing the membership in Houston, after having a really great experience in their Mentorship Program, which is kind of their big flagship program. And then prior to joining WOCA, I worked as an Arts Administrator in the theater world here. So I was working in General Management at the Alley Theatre, and then was Managing Director for the Catastrophic Theater, that was really in our theater world here in Houston. And I'm also from Houston, so I went to the AIUH. So I have deep, deep roots in this city, a lot of love for this city. So that's a little bit about me.

Reyes: Awesome, thank you. Deborah, please.

Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton: Yeah, Deborah D.E.E.P. Mouton, as you said already. I'm actually the owner of DEEP, Inc., which is the business that I run around my artistry. I am an artist-in-residence currently at the American Lyric Theater, as well as Rice University, and served as the first Black Poet Laureate in Houston. And I'm just a writer. I love to do anything that includes words, and I'm just really excited to kinda be able to talk about this because, as a spoken word artist, so much of my work has centered in thinking about social commentary and thinking about how we use words to engage in what's happening right now and move what's going on right now ahead, right? So I'm just excited to be here today, yeah.

Reyes: Absolutely, thank you, you two, for being here. And so we're gonna start off with pretty basic stuff, hopefully kinda go into the deeper intricacies of this very complex question, but first question. We can start with you Shayna, if you'd like. First question is, what are some issues, topics and/or themes that come up in your work or practice, and why?

Shayna: Sure, so I think the first, well, perhaps the most obvious issue for me in my life are those that affect women and women of color specifically, which is kind of how, over time, I've finally had the wonderful fortune to dedicate myself full-time for this work, but it's work that I was coming up against in every space that I entered, just having to advocate for myself, having to speak to the intersectionality that I experienced, the things that I observed because of my lived experience as a woman of color. So and then of the communities that I came from as a result of that. And so racial equity is something that is critical and key, and ever present in my work, and especially as an administrator, performing arts administrator, which is a field that just has a dearth of representation and executive leadership of women of color. So that's really, I mean, there's so many issues to take on, especially at this time where we are in the world, but that has probably been the issue that has been the most consistent, the most salient, the most important to me, is dismantling systems, cultures that have kept women of color out of leadership roles, out of the field entirely. So that's really what I've just dedicated myself to, I would say, and that continues to come up.

Reyes: Thank you; same thing, Deborah. What are some top issues, topics, and/or themes that come up in your work or practice, and why?

Deborah: Yeah, I mean, I'm a black woman, so those things, I think, always show up. I think for me, you know, I started off really thinking about how I inhabit the cross-hatch of both of those spaces, that there's certain things that being black in America, right, need to be exposed or talked about or highlighted, and they're oftentimes more complicated by me being a woman. Sometimes they kind of sit in contrast to me being a woman, which I think is really interesting. And so for a lot of my work, it's really been about telling stories that people haven't heard but should have heard before. It's about being able to talk about issues that I think are being overlooked, because there can only be kind of one minority that's at risk at a time in American society, right? And that lens kind of shifts, no matter how important kind of seeing the full spectrum of everyone's issues are. And so just being able to kind of really reposition it to say that there can be multiple issues on the table at the same time that all need to be handled. We can address them all simultaneously, and being able to just really kind of highlight what those areas of focus are. I'm also really big on creating spaces for writers of color, especially for artists of color. So for a long time, I was running a summit that was working for writers of color to kind of gain resources and access, but really thinking about literary racism and how certain narratives get washed out of literary spaces is something that oftentimes comes up over and over again in my work.

Reyes: Yeah, and thank you for answering that question, you two, because, hopefully, it illuminates why, in the curation of this episode, I particularly liked having y'all on here because I know y'all kind of deal with different issues in the arts community and the Houston arts community, and you both do it in so many different ways. And so it's awesome to kind of give that background to our listeners. And also just the idea to give a backdrop of like, part of answering the question, at least to me, of should I or shouldn't I address this political or social issue in my work is kind of the idea of like, where one is coming from, or what is the foundation of one's art, what is the foundation of how one approaches something. And I'll just say that, yeah, I, myself am a writer and poet of, if you didn't know, Mexican and Salvadorian descent. And even those intersections kind of clash with each other when we think like, oh, you just put a box of Latinos in one thing, and somehow it's all gonna work out. And so my next question kind of builds upon that one. And that is, Shayna, if you wanna answer first, what are some issues, topics, and/or themes that you want to explore in your work or practice but haven't? And it can be for whatever reason, and why not?

Shayna: Sure, I think, I wish I had the capacity to devote a little more time, perhaps, to climate justice. I personally have been following the work that's being, the really amazing grassroots work that's happening around the I-45 Expansion Project, and which, you know, touches on so many, it ties in so many different political and social justice issues that are so specific to Houston. And, in my professional work, I haven't really yet had the time to bring that in, I think, as much as I would like. But I just think being in Houston, we're so disaster prone, especially when it comes to climate change and what's happening as a result of that. I think that's urgent. Those conversations need to be had in every space. And I would love to see the creative community take that on a little more aggressively for so many reasons. But I think just being in Houston really makes it particularly urgent, so.

Reyes: Thank you, and Deborah, the same question, which is, kind of building off the last question is, what are some issues, topics, and/or themes that you want to explore in your work or practice, but haven't gotten to, and why not?

Deborah: That's funny that you mentioned climate change. I think that that's huge for me. I think that that's something that I haven't quite figured out kind of how to wrangle around what I wanna say specifically. I think it's really because I want whatever I say to change things immediately, and I know that that's not a thing, right? So I'm like, what little drop can I make in this massive thing that we need to move and shift? I think, also, I'm really big on talking about prison reform and thinking about how we go about the prison industrial system that it is. I think it's wildly problematic. I've had a lot of history in kind of working with incarcerated youth and those that are kind of reentering into our very weird society, and thinking about what that transition is like. And those are things that I think will always kind of prick my heart, and I haven't exactly figured out how to best integrate them into my work to make the statements that I wanna make.

Reyes: Yeah, and so with those two kind of introductory questions, kind of now we have your answers, the reason why I personally asked those two questions is 'cause I think you two are incredibly capable and you do so much amazing work. But even within all that are willing to kind of admit that there are just some things we don't have the know-how or the capability or the basis of knowledge to have. And I think that's kind of like, maybe if y'all wanna talk about that, this idea of like, how does one enter a conversation, right, and how does one approach a topic that maybe you want to and you just haven't had experience with. And again, I know I have that with issue in particular 'cause I particularly am the son of immigrants, but I would not kind of like presuppose myself to speak on behalf or for undocumented people. That's an entirely different experience than what I've had, even though I may have some experience with that through my parents or through like different contexts. And so, like, it's almost kind of like a sense of humbling oneself to the work that other people are doing, and really works your position in it. And so like, Shayna, the next question then is, for you, when you approach a work with certain issues, topics, and/or themes, what factors or groundwork do you consider before engaging or beginning that work?

Shayna: That's such a great question, a really thoughtful question, and I just really appreciate that you're asking it, because it's something that has been a part of my personal journey as I've sort of developed as an advocate and have seen a lot of damage caused by organizations claiming to do good, but really not wanting to take the steps that would actually result in real change. There's a lot of saviorism that's happening in the nonprofit world. And so it's a question, and it's a question that we all really need to be asking ourselves at this time, as I hope that there is sort of a cultural shift happening, we'll see what kind of world we really enter coming out of this pandemic. But I think the questions have to be who are the folks who are most affected by the work that you're setting out to do at the forefront of the movement? Are they in leadership positions? Are you, and I'm speaking about me, I'm speaking, and you, Reyes, are you sitting in a position that really would be better held by someone else, someone who can speak to that experience, speak to whatever the issues are that you're attempting to support and advocate for. Those are the questions I ask myself before I enter a space because it's really about de-centering ourselves and focusing on really ensuring that those most affected are at the front of whatever we're doing. And I'll be very frank and very honest. I mean, as I started to realize that I wanted to make a shift and devote myself full-time to building greater racial equity in the arts and culture field, I also had to acknowledge, yes, I'm a woman of color, yes, I'm Latina, but the organizers, and especially in women of color in the arts, this is work that has to be led by black women. And that is who I am following and that is key to me that that work needs to be led by that particular group of people in the spaces that I'm attempting to support. So you know, it's kind of having a very honest conversation with oneself when you enter a space. And, yeah, just really making sure that you are following the lead of those who really have the knowledge and the experience, and the history, so yeah.

Reyes: All right, yeah, thank you, Shayna, for that kind of context and setting that up. Yeah, 'cause I think it's really important to think about who is creating, who is being talked about, who is doing the sharing, and really thinking about all the elements of a work that is being done. And so, Deborah, for you, same question. When you approach a work with certain issues, topics, and/or themes, what factors of groundwork do you consider before engaging in or beginning that work?

Deborah:  Yeah, you know, I'm a huge researcher, so I think that that's a big part of it for me, is figuring out what I don't know, and figuring out whose voices am I representing, and am I the right person to be representing them, you know? A lotta times we think just because we have a great idea or an opinion about something that we're kind of the person that should be leading the charge, when we may be ignoring that there's a whole swell of people who are already doing that work. So I'm just really big about kind of spending the time to, you know, Google search or reach out to people and ask kind of what's happening that I don't know before starting to speak. Because I think education is kind of the first step to every bit of activism, whether it's educating the people with your work or being educated by the work. I think those things have to work hand-in-hand in order for you to have something successful that you're able to really do something with.

Reyes: Yeah, and I think it's even just kind of a basic entry into any kind of discussion or art. Like, I've never worked with metal, so me to just become a metalsmith without doing the research of like, okay, what metal should I work with or what temperatures, blah, blah, blah. You would say that person's not prepared or they are ill-equipped to have a say in what metalsmithing is, and kind of the same thing with a lot of political and social issues where it's like, I'm not saying that people can have a valid opinion kind of entering something. It's more like the more research and the more back work that you do, the more you're able and capable to help and really shed light on the issue. So it's rather than thinking of it that way, yeah, think of it as more like, if you're really in it, do you really want to improve this community or this issue? Do you really want to see it to get better? And if that's what you care about then, yeah, you'll care about the people who it's affecting most and people who have done that groundwork to make sure you're in the best position to be helpful. And so I guess what this kind of brings up then is like, for me, there's just kind of like, in my experience, working with different organizations and different collectives, and even just being in a community hearing the work that's being done, we started to get into these very weird positions of what the role of the artist is, right? And so the artist, for me, the creative has always been about someone who is coming at an issue with their own kind of way to address it, right? And so like food insecurity, for example, it's a very serious issue. And like, as an artist, how do I enter that? Or even not as an artist, as just a human being, how do I enter that conversation? And so for y'all, I guess, what is something that you've maybe seen or what efforts that you've seen where you've seen that really great mix of art and activism. Shayna?

Shayna: Sure. I mean, I think we have one of the best examples in the world in Houston personally, I think, with Project Row Houses just changing art forever, pushing the form in a new direction with being a social practice project and creation before there was even a term for that. So, yeah, I just think the way that Project Row Houses, but and then also being very honest, too, about what that sort of activity has and the attention that it's brought to Third Ward. It's a really interesting thing that we have in Houston, a piece that we have in Houston, I would say. I think it's successful in opening up conversations about who we value and what we value in the art world. It's also opening up dialogue about displacement and housing, and gentrification. And so I think, and really what has been probably especially successful at Project Row Houses is just the convenings that it's made possible and the people that are colliding in that space, artists, community members, really elite people in Houston. And it's just, it's kind of a, just a fascinating project, I think, that is artistic and creative, but then also intensely political, so.

Reyes: Yeah, Debra, same question. Yeah, like what are some efforts or artists or practices that you've seen where it has, in your opinion, that really good mix of the artist, in the role of the artist and activism?

Deborah: Absolutely, no, I definitely think there are a lot in Houston. I think back to kind of the Poets for Democratic Action that was kind of spurred by Robin Davidson and a few other people here in the city of Houston. I'm thinking about doing stage readings around specific political things that were happening in response. And, you know, allowing 100, 150 poets to get on stage one night and talk about immigration, and talk about border policies and things of that nature, I think that those were wildly successful. I actually teach a class on art, or used to teach a class on art and activism at the High School For the Visual Performing Arts, or Performing and Visual Arts; I always mix those up. But we talked about things like everything from allyship and looking at how Meeropol worked with Billie Holiday to create "Strange Fruit," right, and how they held different spaces, one being from the community and the other one kind of having the ability to speak and to know that they needed to partner to get the message out. So I think over the course of history, we've seen these really great moments, you know, the "I Am A Man" protest where we see these beautiful signs start to erupt, and it's more of this visual element, and these really stark photographs that start to permeate the media. Those things are artwork. And so I think as we really start to take in the world around us, there's a constant blend of art and activism. It's just a matter of what eye we have or what ear we have to listen to it.

Reyes: Yeah, and then hopefully, and then this kind of gets into maybe like an aesthetic kind of conversation of like for you, and I mean "you" by you two. And Shayna, I guess if you have a thought on this, is kind of like at what point for you does, one, the very basic, I guess, question is, is all art political to you? And to kind of further that, is there kind of like a line or a boundary of when a work becomes activism or where art becomes activism?

Deborah: Can I answer? I wanna say, I'm gonna jump in here.

Shayna: Please, please, please.

Reyes: Yeah, please, Deborah.

Deborah: So it's funny, I was on a panel for Texas Book Fest, and we were talking about this line, and I was the only one on the panel who believed that art was activism. Everyone else was like, it's not; activism is really hard work and artists don't do any hard things. And I was like, wow, wow, wow, that's not true. I think that there's multiple levels of activism and activating your community. But I would say that art as activism depends a lot on the body that it comes through. And I often say this is that like, as a black woman, I cannot make art that is not activated. It's just impossible. I can write the most beautiful poem about a blue bonnet blooming in the ground, and someone will be like, that's a metaphor for the black woman. I don't get the grace to have a non-activism, right? And so I think because I hold a certain space in my body, the work that I put out is gonna be perceived one way or another. I think there are other people who have the privilege, and I'm gonna call it privilege, right, to be able to write something beautiful about a donut or a tomato, and it's just gonna be about a donut or a tomato without all these extra layers. And so then it becomes less about, is the art activism and what do I do with the art that will be perceived as activism, right? If my work is gonna always have that lens on it, then what do I intentionally do to use that lens to the best of my ability to highlight the things that I think are important to talk about. Because at the end of the day, it's still gonna be there, right? And that doesn't say that there aren't some people who intentionally write or create with activism in mind, but I think it's just really important to take into account who we are, what vantage point or perspective we're speaking from and what is gonna be perceived of us via our audience.

Reyes: Nice.

Shayna: Right. And I mean, I think even art that doesn't explicitly maybe set out to be political is political in who is omitted and who is not included. I think a lot of artists now, or a lot of artists are creating work in response to the canon in theater a lot, too. Like, okay, they had no interest in my perspective and my experience, and my very existence. And because of that, it's now political. We're now making it political. So I don't know. I think every, going back to the personal is political, and any creative expression through the vessel of a human being is going to, I think, touch on something political, whether the intention is there or not. And then as D.E.E.P. said, the way it's received, too, can turn into a very political thing. So yeah, I believe that it is.

Reyes: Yeah, yeah, I agree in terms of, yeah. I think all kind of art is political in one way or another. I mean, even the selection of a medium in a way is almost like a choice. It's a decision, it's a political decision, whether it be because of just resources, I mean, like, again, I'm sure in theater, there is kind of like a political kind of like navigation of like, well, we don't have a whole space, we don't even have a stage, but we want to do a theater piece. And so like, because it does not fulfill this idea of what that is, is it that? Same thing with writing. As someone who writes poetry and fiction and essays, it's kind of like, I wrote this thing to be a poem. And then if a poet goes up to you, well, that's not a poem, then it's kind of, well, that is a political idea of what poetry ought to be, right, and what is that? Because then it has that ideation of that work has to be based on something.

Shayna: Right.

Reyes: And whether we like it or not, in America, it is based, like you said, like in a canon, whether we like it or not, right. And even the language that I'm speaking in is a political one, right?

Shayna: There you go.

Reyes: It's a language instituted through very horrifying ways onto a people. And so it's kind of like the goose of the egg or, rather, the chicken or the egg, right.

Deborah: And I think also, like, as we think about like, non-examples, right, like coming from the education world like the non-example, the thing that doesn't do the thing, when we see work that is absolutely removed from politics, that is its own political statement, right, that that person could be that removed from a world that is doing all of these things around them, you know? And so I completely agree with you. Like, I think even when people are not trying to be, or trying to be anti-political, it is still political statement.

Reyes: Yeah, 'cause even then I think, yeah, even like the things surrounding the art itself, right? Like where do you perform that piece at, right? Even where that locale or that venue is located is, within itself, like a result of political action or historical events. And so I guess this then goes into my next question of, what advice would you give to someone who is looking to venture into a certain issue, topic and/or theme? What advice would you give them so that, in terms of, if they've had no prior experience with that thing, what advice would you give them to kind of like follow or to think about before they venture into something that maybe they aren't a part of, or maybe they don't have as much experience with? And Shayna, if you wanna do that first.

Shayna: I would echo what D.E.E.P. said earlier, do your research and really, yeah, spend some time reflecting on how you really can intervene in a way that is unique to who you are and the experiences that you bring. But certainly doing your research, understanding who has tackled these issues before, what is the work that has come before you, so you can understand where you fit in. And I would also encourage someone to think about collaboration and partnership. Political work is not about one person solving the world's problems. It's about organizing and community working in community. And so I just highly would encourage someone to be collaborative as they approach an issue that potentially affects people.

Deborah: Yeah, I would say to remember yourself in the work. And by that, I mean political work is exhausting, right? And that a lotta times, especially when we're passionate about something, we're like, we're gonna go 110, you know. We're gonna make this thing bigger than us because it is bigger than us. And then we burn ourselves out. And I've watched quite a few people who completely stopped writing, because right, it became so exhausting to do the work, or stopped putting shows up, right? Because the act of workshopping and refining a show that lives in trauma is so taxing. And so I just wanna remind people like, yes, you're doing this amazing thing that's necessary and the world needs it all, and also the world needs you to be here for it. And prioritizing your self-care, prioritizing time for joy and celebration, those things are necessary just as much as this really big momentous work that you're doing.

Reyes: Yeah, and I think it's even like, yeah, worth kind of maybe even talking about like I guess one's literal kind of position and in the issue and political issue themselves, right. Where, like I said before, like, you know, I'm the son of immigrants, but again, maybe my work can point to and kind of using the, in the formulation of the question, using the word address is very vague, and it's a very interpretable word, is I guess the best way I can put it. And so I was like the son of immigrants, it's kind of like dealing with immigration issues or dealing with a lot of the ways that people acclimate or assimilate, or kind of do not flourish even in this country because of certain political and social issues. But I wouldn't, again, consider myself an expert on, let's say, the undocumented experience. That is just certainly not one I've had to live with. And so I guess maybe even talking about like, if you are, right, like in terms of what does address mean? And so for me, the way I would address that is that maybe in my stories, I have characters who maybe have that experience but I'm not going to try to maybe write exclusively from their viewpoint. Or maybe like, it's even a negotiation of how one's craft can be used to maybe explore something or address, quote/unquote, something. And I think even that's a very difficult question to answer. Or it's not. Some people might even say, if it's not you, don't do it. You know, if it's-

Deborah: Yeah, I disagree with that. And, you know, I'm gonna get in trouble here for saying this, but I really do. I think that if we're just gonna limit ourselves to the things that we know, then we're not gonna get to a space where we know more, right. I do think that every space is not made for you to speak about. I do think that finding a voice that's more authentic than yours and kind of leading to this collaboration that we mentioned sometimes helps that, right? Like instead of feeling like you have to be the master, find someone who is the master and figure out a way to collaborate and allow their voice to shine as well. But especially as a writer and as a creator of things that go on stage, you know, I think having characters that are authentically something that I don't know about helps me broaden my understanding. It just goes back to that education piece, right, of like not going to the border, spending two days, writing a book and getting a six-figure deal. You know, I'm not naming anybody. But be able to really like dive in and live, and understand and question, interview. And then take the work that you've created back to that community and say, did I represent you correctly? What can I do to better represent it? Is there something that I'm missing that you would want me to highlight in this work, right? I think that there's a collaboration there, too, that works really well. Like I'm not a trans woman, but trans woman issues are huge and need to be addressed, and need to be acknowledged. And so for me to sit quietly and to just not address them because I'm not a trans woman, that doesn't do any help either, right? Like there has to be someone who is willing to find a way to include even the statement that this is an issue, right, that needs to be handled, even if they're not the one who has to say what the solution is to handle it.

Shayna: It can also have, and I think so much focus and pressure is placed on to make a big statement or to, again, really insert oneself into the conversation. And I just, really trying to put a lot of focus on intentional decision-making on a most granular level. I know a lot of us are familiar with adrienne maree brown's work and "Emergent Strategy." And what really resonated with me from her work has been like, just even in the smallest decisions that we make in our lives can address an issue, can speak to something. So in your artwork, it's like who you're buying your products from, who is, I don't know. I just feel like, as a producer, there are a lot of people that I'm hiring. And in that process, I just am being very mindful of where the money is going as I'm producing something. And so it might not be that I am producing a theater piece about a specific issue, but in the actions that we are taking to get there, we're being intentional. And I think that's another way to kind of think of, you know, participate.

Reyes: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, it's, 'cause I agree that even having the power to appoint something or to kind of address something in art, that is a power. And how do we use that without kind of usurping, right, or taking something from someone else? I think I once heard this quote where it's like, I forgot where it's from, but it's this idea of there really is no such thing as the voiceless. It's only like who you give the mic to, or who you give that platform to.

Shayna: Right.

Reyes: And so kind of thinking about that, are you taking someone's role who can do that? Or are you doing the work to make sure that they can have that platform when they need it? And so kind of the last questions I'll ask is maybe the biggest one. Ultimately, what do you think art can do to address heavy topics and issues, Shayna?

Shayna: Ooh, I kinda wanna let the artist go first here.

Reyes: All right, Deborah.

Deborah: I mean, my simple answer's gonna be everything, right? It could do everything. It can magnify issues, it can quiet issues, right? It can silence, it can amplify. I mean, I really do believe that at our heart and our core, if we've learned nothing from the last year, it's how important art is. Because when we were all huddled in our houses, the thing we were consuming the most was art, whether it was television, whether it was movies, right, whether it was books, we resorted to our art to survive.

Shayna: Yes.

Deborah: If that doesn't say right there the impact of what artists can do, right, in their very still moments and their very loud moments. I was able to kind of sit in on a theater performance this week for the first time in two years. And it was wild, right, to be back in the theater. I found myself just staring at the eaves and the floor, and looking at the murally, right, and just being like, yes, home, right? But I think creating spaces, and creating homes and creating moments for us to hold onto, and to grow and to shape ourselves around, that is the work of the artist, right? That is, the most important work is sometimes the very still and introspective moments that we provide for our readers, our audiences, to plug into and to see themselves become better people afterwards.

Shayana: I agree, I think all of that, all of that. And ooh, yeah, I just, art humanizes. And I think so much of what is political and what we are fighting against is, on some level, fighting dehumanization, and all the many awful ways that that is weaponized, and art cuts through that, I think. And so the artist has tremendous power in that way.

Reyes: Yeah, and I think kind of something to consider is like, and, Deborah, you said this, right, just kind of the amazing influence and reach that art has is kind of like thinking about, well, who doesn't want a certain conversation to happen, or who doesn't want certain arts to be happening, right? And so even thinking about it on a Texas level, like what things can be taught, right, what arts can be taught in the schools, right. Or whether or not art is worth teaching at all. Yeah, particularly in Texas, kind of the divestment from the arts has been ridiculous, and kind of like that is a political decision. And that is a political statement to say that art is not worth that.

Deborah: I mean, even what is labeled art, right? Creative writing is not considered a fine art in Texas. Right, like that, we can not apply artistic money to creative writing from a budget at a school in Texas. It has to come from some other funding source. So just even saying at its core, we don't value your narrative as artwork.

Shayna: Um-hum.

Deborah: Right? That's crazy.

Reyes: That is, that is, and yeah. And even then like, just even who can make art. And like you said, who has access to the arts and all that stuff, all that stuff. And so always so many big issues and topics we can talk about; we only have so much time. And so if there's anything to leave with, I guess, from this conversation is, yeah, do your research. And if you ever find yourself in a position where you don't know something, well, pay someone who can, or talk to someone who can and pay them well, you know.

Deborah: I mean, it's okay to abandon a thought, right. Like it's okay to say, man, I got waist-deep in this idea and someone else did it so much better. Maybe I don't have anything to say.

Shayna: And now I know about this other creator.

Deborah:  Right.

Shayna: And yeah.

Deborah: And maybe I can just highlight their work that they've already done, and lived and experienced instead of feeling like I have to stay committed to something that I'm not the best person to speak about.

Shayna: Um-hum.

Reyes: I think that's a really good point. Really good thing to bring up. Yeah, so kinda just some final questions, kinda lightning round, just kind of like, just some for fun. And I'm sure, Deborah, I think you've gotten these questions before, but I'm sure they've changed in the year that they have been asked. But like first question, I guess, a favorite place to eat or take out from in Houston lately? Shayna.

Shayna: Ooh, ooh, man. Okay, the first place I went to get food when I got back into town after being three months on the West Coast was Whataburger and it was amazing. But there is a Street Food Thai Market, which on Cavalcade, has been my go-to place for takeout during the pandemic. Yeah, I really like that food.

Reyes: Deborah.

Deborah: Yeah. I would go between the Toasted Yolk, which is just phenomenally fattening to my hips, but it's so good, and this place called Hiccups & Churroholics, which serves churros. Ooh, gourmet churros, y'all. I don't need these things. They make me happy, though. So that would be my answer.

Reyes: Yeah, nice. Second question. Who is an artist in Houston or creative in Houston that you've seen that you've really liked lately or that you've really gotten into lately? Shayna.

Shayna: Oh, man, um, hmm. So I recently started doing some work with Art League Houston on their Installations Project. And one of the installations is by an artist named Mike S, who I've sort of been learning about. And his piece in this Art League Installations Project is really interesting to me. So I've enjoyed learning more about him.

Reyes: Deborah?

Deborah: Yeah, I'm not gonna pick one; I'll pick three, though, which is Outspoken Bean, the current Poet Laureate of Houston. His work is phenomenal. I would say Lanecia Rouse Tinsley, sculptor and visual artist. Her work is really great. And Harrison Guy, who's a dancer and choreographer. His work is really stunning. Those right now have my attention.

Reyes: Nice, all right. That's about all the time we have. So thank you, you two, for your experience, your expertise, your words. And so, listener, I hope you've learned a bit, and stay tuned for next episode.

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