The Bookshop Podcast
The Bookshop Podcast
From Cult to Community: Dr. Kate Gale's Journey in Nonprofit Publishing and Advocacy
In this episode, I chat with the accomplished author, editor, educator, speaker, and prominent figure in contemporary American literature, Dr. Kate Gale,
Dr. Gale is the Publisher, Co-founder, and Managing Editor of Red Hen Press, one of the largest independent literary publishers in the United States. Under her stewardship, Red Hen Press has earned a reputation for championing diverse voices and publishing high-quality literature that challenges and inspires readers worldwide.
As an author, Kate has penned numerous acclaimed works, including poetry collections such as The Loneliest Girl and The Goldilocks Zone, which showcase her distinctive voice and keen observation of life's intricacies. Her debut novel, Under a Neon Sun, interrogates the epidemic of unhoused community college students in California, with her insights on this subject gaining momentum through additional writing in the Los Angeles Times. Her work delves into complex themes with a narrative style that captivates and engages readers across genres.
Additionally, Dr. Gale is a passionate advocate for arts education and has been involved in numerous initiatives aimed at promoting literacy and creative expression among aspiring writers and students.
With a deep-rooted commitment to fostering a vibrant literary culture, Dr. Kate Gale continues to make a lasting impact through her work with Red Hen Press, as well as her writing, editing, and advocacy efforts. Her career embodies a blend of intellectual rigor, emotional depth, and a profound belief in the power of literature to illuminate and transform lives.
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly and I'm a bibliophile. Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast. Each week, I present interviews with authors, independent bookshop owners and booksellers from around the globe and publishing professionals. To help the show reach more people, please share episodes with friends and family and on social media, and remember to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this podcast. You're listening to episode 265. N65.
Speaker 1:Dr Kate Gale is co-founder and managing editor of Red Hen Press and editor of the Los Angeles Review. She teaches in the low residency MFA program at the University of Nebraska in poetry, fiction and creative nonfiction. She is the author of the Forthcoming the Loneliest Girl from the University of New Mexico Press and of seven books of poetry, including the Goldilocks Zone from the University of New Mexico Press in 2014 and Echo Light from Red Mountain in 2014, and six librettos, including Rio de Sangre, a libretto for the opera with composer Don Davis, which had its world premiere October 2010 at the Florentine Opera in Milwaukee. Dr Gayle speaks on independent publishing around the US at schools like USC and Columbia and she speaks at Oxford University. Her opera in process is the Web Opera and an opera on Che Guevara is in process with Cuban composer Armando Beolo. Hi, kate, and welcome to the show. It's wonderful to have you here, great to be here with you.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:It's my pleasure. Now let's begin with learning about you your early life in poverty, relocating to California studying literature and gaining your PhD in English language and literature.
Speaker 2:Well, yes, I grew up in a cult in southern New Hampshire and when I left there I had $2, a sleeping bag, a harmonica, and I had a Bible in English and one in French. I could read both. I had a dog also. The dog actually, I'm sorry to say, did not last long. It's very hard to keep a dog with you when you're traveling. So I was sleeping outside in the sleeping bag. I thought it was quite an adventure and I started off cleaning houses and taking care of people's children and very quickly got a hold of a car. I had to roll start the car and so it was a little stick shift and so I was sleeping in the car very soon, and the character in my novel also sleeps in a car. I think that I thought it was quite a step up when I could sleep in the car, had a little bookshelf in the car where I kept my books, and after I got the car after that I always made sure I had a car, because a car feels like a little mobile traveling space, and so it felt like a little safer to have a car, although after that I continued to do quite a bit of tent camping and I made my way to Virginia. And it's funny because once I was in Virginia and I was doing a little bit of childcare, I was dating this guy who had also left the cult and he was like telling me that God had told him that we should, you know, maybe get married, but that also God had told him that I should never go to college. And I had never thought about going to college. I was just very low down on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which I didn't even know about. But immediately when he said that, I decided that's it, I'm going to college. So I was stopped by the college the next day and I told this woman who I was referred to that I was going to college and she said well, what is your major going to be? And I said why do I need a major? And she said, well, that's going to be like what you're going to do when you finish. And I said how long will it take? And she said four years. And then I said what if the rapture happens first? And she said, well, then the rapture will have happened and you'll be partway through college. And I said okay. And then she said do you know, this is a black college. And I said, no, but is it still okay for me to go here? She said, yes, you can come here, but it is a black college. And I said, okay, well, that sounds great. And uh, she said what are you going to do when you finish? And I said I'm going to pick fruit, and in that case I would like to learn spanish, because so many of the people that I picked fruit with speak spanish. She was like great, the spanish department here is very small because, like I said, it's just, it's a small black college and we don't have a big Spanish department. So I said, well, that's going to be great.
Speaker 2:And after a year I decided that I was going to drive to Arizona because I wanted to move to California and Arizona seemed to be on the way, and I just drove to Arizona, sleeping at rest areas along the way. I did not stop at any restaurants to eat or grocery stores. I just ate a chocolate bar on the way over, because I wanted to just kind of not spend too much money in case the car broke down, which it did in Texas. And I got to Arizona and while I was in college there, I met Rita Duff, who was later going to be the poet laureate of the United States. And she asked me what's your major? And I was just going to say I'm a Spanish major because I'm going to be a traveling fruit picker. But by that time I'd been out of the cult for a couple of years and I must have realized that sounded foolish. So I said I'm thinking of being an English major. And then she said that sounds great.
Speaker 2:And the reason I decided to go to graduate school in the first place is the reason most people do, I've now found out because I had no clue what to do after college, because I had no set of.
Speaker 2:I had no set of life skills and I had no financial literacy and no real sense of what to do with my life. So graduate school seemed like a good idea. But by the time I finished graduate school I was in California and decided to start a publishing company. That turned out to be a very unwise decision because I did not have any money, I did not really have a team around me to guide me or whatever. But I think that if you make all of the decisions in your life based on you know great decisions, then I think maybe you just stay at home. So it turned out to be a great life adventure. I started a publishing company, and even if I really weighed everything, maybe I would never have left the farm in the first place, and so it turned out to be very exciting, and I made many mistakes along the way. I learned from a lot of those mistakes.
Speaker 1:I was taking notes while listening to you speak, kate, and, like a good book, your first sentence really struck me. I grew up in a cult in southern New Hampshire. We'll explore that part of your life a little later. And something else that struck me about your story is I think it underlines the fact that we can't be afraid to try something new. Yes, we're going to make mistakes Everyone does and we learn from those mistakes, hopefully. But the other part of that equation is that we then get to give back and help others who might have been in a similar position to us so they don't make quite as many mistakes as we have. And giving back is definitely something that you do at Red Hen Press Now. In 1994, you and Mark E Cull co-founded Red Hen Press as an independent, non-profit press. The mission of Red Hen Press is to publish works of literary excellence, to foster diversity and to promote literacy in our local schools. What is the Writing in Schools program?
Speaker 2:My two kids were in public schools by that time program. My two kids were in public schools by that time and I could see that the public schools didn't have the time and energy for much arts, and I could also see that one of the arts that really moves kids forward is the ability to be able to write. I mean, I really wish that I could be giving kids all of the arts. I mean I think that theater and dance are also extremely important and I wish I could be giving them those as well. But I felt like I do feel like the thing with writing is that writing is our ability to communicate with other people and that we use that in so many different ways. And so I wanted to have a writing in the schools program that we would work with the kids with, and what I found was that the schools were very excited about having a program like this, and so as soon as we got started, we found many schools eager to work with us, especially schools where most of the kids did not speak English, because the kids would start to learn poetry and that became part of their way of learning English. Obviously, we most well maybe not obviously, but you know, in Los Angeles. Most of the kids that we're working with Spanish is their first language, and so we're working with them and they're learning to write poetry in English and that becomes part of their learning tools, and so it just became very exciting to all of us.
Speaker 2:We've had a lot of great poets work in this program from Chris Abani to Douglas Kearney, doug Manuel and so it's been really exciting for the poets and writers who have gone out into the school and for the kids themselves. Just, you know, thousands of kids have gone through this program. Each of the kids get a book when they start the program, which is a collection of poetry, and then they get a collection at the end which has their poetry published in it, and the kids will often tell us that these are the only books that are at their house. So you know you've got a, you've got a collection of books behind you. You know I have a collection of books here in my office and a much larger collection at my house as well, and for many of these kids they don't have any books except the ones we send them home with.
Speaker 1:Well, I love what you're doing. I am actually the partner podcast for Books in Homes USA, whose primary mission is to child has more than 20 books in their home library, they will have higher literacy and numeracy proficiency in adulthood. Thank you for what you're doing to help get books in homes for children. Before we go any further, how does a non-profit press differ from a for-profit press and what does this mean for your authors and poets?
Speaker 2:That's a great question, and we are often asked that, and I think part of it is that, in the film industry, people are used to the idea that smaller films will raise the money for a film and take it to Sundance, and then maybe, maybe, it gets distributed quote by, like Miramax. But in the book industry, the way books are made is sort of dominated by the big five in New York, and so when we think about books, we're thinking HarperCollins, we're thinking Random House, but in fact, many of the publishing companies are outside of that quote big five. It's just, you know, they get a lot of the press. And the fact is, though, that once you get outside of that, the whole economics of book publishing changes. So when books are published by the big five, uh, they're published on these big wheels, where they're printing them thousands and thousands of them at a time.
Speaker 2:And as long as you're doing that kind of printing method, it costs under a dollar each to print the books, because they're being printed very cheaply. They're being printed thousands at a time, and they just throw away whatever they don't print. So it's not a very green method, but it is a cheap method. So it's not a very green method, but it is a cheap method. The way we print them in the indie world is we print them either offset, which is sort of a big camera taking a picture of the books, or we print them digitally, which is even greener, where you're actually just printing the number you need, a few hundred at a time, or when you're printing galleys, literally 20 or 40 or 100 at a time.
Speaker 1:You're talking about POD print on demand.
Speaker 2:Yes, print on demand. That's how you print galleys and you can print on demand several hundred, right. But when you're printing offset you're printing several thousand, but you're printing them very carefully in smaller lots. Those are going to cost you three to four dollars a copy for the most part. And if you look at the economics of that compared to the printing them for less than a dollar a copy and you just kind of knock it down, and you also look at the economics of printing them, of having the distribution cost you as much as it does for us when we have distribution with PGW slash Ingram, what you realize is there's literally no way you can actually make money on your books unless you are subsidized in some way. And so the three big presses in Minneapolis Graywolf, milkweed and Coffeehouse are all nonprofits. All these university presses are nonprofits. Hay Day Press in San Francisco is a nonprofit. So there's a lot. Most of the presses outside New York are nonprofits and that means that they can get grants, they can have contributions. That helps them to pay for some of those printing costs.
Speaker 2:Now, not all of them do the kinds of things Red Hen does. So, for example, having a writing in schools program or that kind of thing. I don't know what the Minneapolis school system is like, but the reason we started that is because we're in Los Angeles and also, I think, because our mission in the beginning had to do with the literature and literacy, and so we saw that need. The staff wanted to be involved with that. We had writers that wanted to be involved with that. We had writers that wanted to be involved with that and we got it started. So I think that you work with the community you're in and that's how we see that.
Speaker 1:And in regards to your poets and authors, does this mean they get an advance when you sign them? So, first of all separately.
Speaker 2:I mean, our writers are paid when they're going into writing the school but, then our writers, when they are with us, are paid advances, our poets with um, the ben saltman award, with our different awards are given, are paid. The ben saltman award is a three thousand dollar award. We have other awards that are between three and five thousand dollars, a $1,000 awards. We have one $5,000 award that is named after the late Kai Emmons. She was an amazing writer that we published who passed away of Lou Gehrig's disease just in the last couple years, and so we named an award after her. So we have a number of awards but we also pay advances on just mostly prose books and do they still receive a percentage of the sales?
Speaker 2:Right yeah, so we're a traditional publisher, so they receive royalties as well.
Speaker 1:And Red Hand Press publishes 10 imprints highlighting authors from diverse locations and backgrounds. Can you expand on this and explain why publishing houses branch off into imprints? Can you expand on this and explain why publishing houses?
Speaker 2:branch off into imprints. You know, with the big houses, a lot of times the imprints are because they acquired a publishing house. They took over Echo or they took over Black Sparrow and they kind of pulled it in. In our case it's often because there's an editor that wants to work with us and they want to focus on one particular thing. So, for example, boreal focuses on Alaskan authors. So we had always talked about how we wanted to be very diverse and I think when we thought about that in the beginning we were thinking LGBT authors, african-american authors, asian authors and like that. And so we were approached by peggy shoemaker, who's an alaskan author, and she explained to us that alaskan authors don't get published as much by the lower 48, partly because just geographically, so far away, and those stories don't get as much play, you know, particularly in new york and uh, so we were very excited to have an Alaskan imprint.
Speaker 2:We do, we sell a lot of books in the Pacific Northwest. So I think we were kind of a natural to work with Peggy and our Alaskan books have done really well. We really work to sell them at the PNBA. I don't know if you're familiar with this, but that's that Northwest Fall Conference I don't know if you're familiar with this, but that's that Northwest Fall Conference. We also really work to sell them in Seattle and Portland, so it's not just Alaska, it kind of comes into the lower 48.
Speaker 2:And some of those authors have done some touring so I feel like we ended up being kind of a natural partner for that Boreal imprint. We also have a Quill imprint that is for LGBT authors. That's been funded by Amazon. So we always are looking for funding for these different imprints. Some of them, you know I think the African American one is now a prize. So some of them, I think we sort of moved in a different direction at some point. But I like thinking about either an imprint or a prize that focuses in a certain direction, because that kind of creates some excitement around that idea.
Speaker 1:Well, that's great information, thank you. I saw an event space on the guided tour of the Red Hen Press offices on Instagram. It looked fantastic, so I'd love to hear about your events program and where your offices are located.
Speaker 2:So people from Pasadena would refer to us as being on the JPL side of Pasadena, because there's one side of Pasadena, there's another side of Pasadena, but the JPL side of Pasadena would be sort of the west side of Pasadena. Yeah, so we're on Lincoln and our event space is about to get quite a bit better because we are buying all this equipment which is lighting and sound, and so it's going to make it a theatrical space. We've just written a grant for a reading series which we hope will be launching in the next year, and so it will make that reading series really cool. But we also rent the space out to theaters. We're also a polling place, so this side of town kind of needed a polling place and so the city came in and it wasn't a takeover, but they did ask to use our place.
Speaker 2:Um, so it's kind of great for us actually, because a lot of people get to kind of come through and see the place. Um, we also have an art gallery. I don't know if you saw could see that, but there's usually an art show up and we have art lighting and everything. Um, so, yeah, there's a you you can see, there's a stage, there's a piano and it's. It's a very cool space for events. I think we see like 150.
Speaker 1:Kate, I love what you're doing and I'm envious of your building. What I love about everything you're doing is that it's about community, because you're not only bringing authors and poets to your community, but you're doing something for your community. You know, you're offering your building as a polling place, and, my goodness, we need polling places right now. So, from my heart to yours, kudos for everything you're doing to build community. Okay now, how important is it for writers to have an author platform, and is this?
Speaker 2:So, yes, I'm actually teaching a publishing class at UCLA and what I was thinking I would do for tonight's class is give the students a list of the I think, 30 authors that I'm looking at right now and have them do a quick Google of them and just say, ok, I've read the manuscripts you haven't. But if you had to just choose from what you can find online, which of these people would you publish? Because what actually happens is that, um, we, we all meet as a team and it isn't all 12 people that work at red hen. Um, obviously, the, you know, a lot of times, the uh, you know, the accounting people aren't there. The accounting people aren't there, the development people aren't there, so it ends up being the editorial staff and the marketing and media staff. And this comes back to your question.
Speaker 2:So usually for any particular manuscript, of course I would have read it and then one or two other people would have read any manuscript. So we're having a bit of a discussion about it and then the marketing media people would say so, you know, I'm going to give you an assessment of this author, mandy Jackson Beverly, if I can direct your attention to her website. This is what her website looks like. I mean, frankly, I think it needs to be hauled over because you know it hasn't been updated since, you know whatever. So the first thing they would assess is the person's website, you know. Does it look outdated? Does it need to be hauled over? Now? If I'm madly in love with the manuscript and I'm the editor sitting there, I might say, guys, we could get this person to haul over the website. But now we're going to go to the next thing, which is have you been regularly publishing pieces somewhere, medium sub stack, you know anywhere? I mean, have you been getting stuff up on the rumpus or salon or slate or anywhere? Okay, so that's the next question.
Speaker 2:And then we're going to look at your socials and of those four pieces, there's got to be something going on. You have to have a good website or good socials or be getting things published. And you know there will always be someone you know in my publishing class that will say well, we know that one of your authors doesn't have any of that stuff and you're taking them anyway. And I'm like, don't bring up Percival Everett, because we are publishing Percival Everett, but you know he just sold, you know his, his, his book just got got bought by by Steven Spielberg. So unless your book just got bought by Steven Spielberg, you're not in that category, you know so, like there are Thomas Pynchons and Elena Ferrante's, but the reason we can just mention that is that's just two people on the whole planet. The rest of us have to have an author platform and there's different ways of having one. You can get a lot of different pieces published, or you can have great socials. You know what I mean. You can do this different ways, but you can't do nothing.
Speaker 1:I completely agree with you, kate. In fact, I teach classes on building your author platform and the different forms of publishing two separate classes and I've asked every single agent or publisher, small and medium presses or anyone involved in the publishing industry who have been on the show if they feel it's important, when an author submits to their publishing company or their agency, if that author has a platform. I remember one panel that I was moderating. I asked this question of five people on the panel. Most of them were agents or publishers and only one of them said no.
Speaker 1:I never look at the author's platform. I think, as writers, you have to look at the big picture, and the big picture is that book publishing is a business and, unless you're a high profile bestselling author, publishing companies will expect you to help them market your book. The other thing I think is important is you choose the social media or the platform that works best for you and your story, and it is always different for nonfiction. Like you, you specialize in literature and publishing. You have knowledge you can share and that is part of your platform as not only the co-owner of Red Hen Press, but also as an author. Speaking engagements for nonfiction authors are a part of their platform.
Speaker 1:I have two websites, one for mandyjacksonbeverlycom and the other for the Bookshop Podcast. The Bookshop Podcast has recently been redone, so I'm happy with that one, mandyjacksonbeverlycom. That needs redesigning and I'll get to it. So, yes, I agree. I feel that it is vital for new writers to try to build up their author platform. As much as I wish I could say it doesn't matter, I truly think it does. Okay, let's move on to your writing, and especially your novel Under a Neon Sun. It was released in April of this year and coincided with an op-ed you wrote for the Los Angeles Times titled quote I was homeless in college. California can do more for students who sleep in their cars. End quote. In this article you wrote quote an estimated one in five of the state's two million community college students are unhoused. End quote. Community college students are unhoused end quote. What steps can colleges and universities take to support homeless students and ensure their safety.
Speaker 2:So when I was first writing this, I was working with someone at the LA Times and they were doing some research on what you know, whether anyone was doing anything, whether any colleges were doing anything. There are 123 community colleges, but I guess 119 of them are fully accredited, so they talked about 119 of them. But of those colleges, long Beach is the only one that's really doing anything, and by that I mean they have parking lots that are fully lit and that have security guards, and then the students that are in those parking lots are given water, snacks and medical supplies and by that, like, in other words, if they hurt themselves or whatever, they can get first aid. And they consider that just a start. They are keeping track of who's parking in those lots and they're working toward getting at least temporary housing for those students. That's what Long Beach is doing, but they seem to be the only community college that's working on that, and there are other community colleges that are actually trying to, you know, get rid of the students that are parking, um, you know, in the, in the uh parking lots that are that are uh on campus, and you know, getting them to to leave and clearly those would be safer parking lots than just out in the city, especially if you were someplace like Trade Tech.
Speaker 2:I used to teach at Trade Tech and at some point they let us know that there had been quote rapists on campus and they were going to have us get out at 6.30 instead of 7.
Speaker 2:I remember calling my boyfriend at the time and thinking you know how is a half an hour going to really change it? What they really should be doing is having escorts to our cars and having the campus well lit. It didn't seem like that half an hour was going to really make a difference, but like a campus like that, which is right down in the city of Los Angeles and downtown, it seems to me that, you know, having a well-lit parking lot would be extremely important, rather than just making you park someplace else downtown. So it seems to me that what Long Beach is doing is a really excellent first step and that the next step might be working with students to find temporary housing. And the reason I made such a big deal of this is that in the op-ed is that there's a lot of conversation about California's homeless, which has been a problem for a long time, but this particular group of homeless kids, this 500,000, are on their way up.
Speaker 2:They are working to better themselves Because I, you know, I think we often will see someone who you know has been homeless for decades and will think you know they've been in and out of some sort of drug or alcohol abuse. They seem like they're intractable. They don't want to move out of their tent or their RV, and some of them are. Some of them don't want to move out of their tent or their RV, but these and some of them are, some of them don't want to move, Some of them don't want to move into housing. So there's some sort of mental illness or some sort of alcohol or drug abuse and it is going to be difficult because there's something going on there that it would take a social worker or someone way smarter than you or me to shift that. You're talking about a community college student. I feel like that was formerly me. I know this person.
Speaker 2:All I wanted was to get back into an apartment, because a lot of times I had just been in an apartment but then my roommates know my roommates skedaddled and I couldn't pay the apartment by myself, and, and some of the kids today it's like they had to move out of living with their parents because that situation wasn't working, Um, or they had to move out of a roommate situation. So, yes, they would like to get back into an apartment, but they're $3,000 away from that situation and so they're planning to be citizens paying taxes, and they are right now California citizens going to college, planning to be California citizens paying taxes. So this seems to me like a group of people we could work with that Governor Newsom could be helping that group, Because some of them, if they don't get help, will fall through the cracks. They will. They're trying. They're trying.
Speaker 1:Yes, they are, and I know locally at UCLA they have programs like they have programs. One is called the Community Programs Office, or CPO, and that runs a food closet and it provides food free food for any UCLA student who may be experiencing hunger and or struggling to attain food due to financial hardships. I'm sure UCLA isn't alone in that. I'm hoping it's across the nation. But, as you said, it is truly heartbreaking to think that these students who are in community colleges or universities, they are trying to better themselves. They're working super hard to make a difference in their lives and their families' lives and we need to be supporting them. Okay, kate, now I want to go right back to your first sentence. I was raised in a cult in southern New Hampshire. I'm curious. Can you tell us more please?
Speaker 2:that a lot of California cults sort of leaned in that direction. The cult that I grew up in in New Hampshire was a right-wing religious cult. We were definitely going to be raptured, and in fact I hate to tell you this, mandy, but we were the only ones that were going to be raptured, nobody else. And so I think that, you know, it was that kind of puritanical kind of a streak there. I felt that since I was setting my novel in California, that I would lean toward making it a very California cult, but ours was definitely a wrath of God.
Speaker 1:And was it easy to veer away from that way of thinking, or is it something that still pulls at you?
Speaker 2:to veer away from that way of thinking, or is it something that still pulls at you? You know, obviously when I first left I was still waiting for the rapture around every corner, and it took a while before I kind of let go of it, but I did, I let go. There was some time when I remember saying to myself God will forgive me in the morning if I have sex tonight. And that was the beginning letting go of it all.
Speaker 1:Well, I for one am grateful that you are now here in our community in California. Okay, let's talk books. What are you currently reading? I'm reading the book All Fours.
Speaker 2:It is speaking of naughty books. It is right up there. I finished James by Percival Everett but I very much recommend that to everybody. But I think Miranda July's All Fours is a really fun book and it is making the rounds.
Speaker 1:And I'm sure you're reading manuscripts constantly.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I am.
Speaker 1:And for our listeners. I'll make sure to put the links to all of the books you've mentioned, and especially the article you wrote for the Los Angeles Times, in the show notes. I am interested in something Now. You didn't publish your book Under the Neon Sign. It's published by an East Coast company publisher. Is that right?
Speaker 2:Yes, the publisher is called Three Rooms Press after the play, and it's a really fun couple that lives in the village that publishes Three Rooms Press. So I mean I could have, I suppose, but I would certainly prefer to have another editor.
Speaker 1:Yes, editors are gold. Kate, it's been fabulous chatting with you and I want to say from my heart, thank you for all of the work you do to support your community, helping children in schools and making sure books written by diverse authors are published. It's so important.
Speaker 2:Thank you Well thank you so much for having me on, and actually I do love your website so much I was just giving examples. Oh, that's funny. Well, as you so much for having me on, and actually I do love your website so much I was just giving examples.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's funny. Well, as I said, my mandyjacksonbeverlycom needs a little update, but I'll get to it, I promise.
Speaker 2:Okay well, I'll keep an eye and see what you do to it, because I'm always interested in people changing their websites. I do think it's good to change them every few years because technology changes.
Speaker 1:Yes, and we change and grow.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, exactly. It's so great to chat with you and thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to my conversation with Dr Kate Gale, co-founder and managing editor of Red Hen Press, and remember to check out her new book Under the Neon Sun. To help the show reach more people, please share episodes with friends and family and on social media, and remember to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to this podcast. To find out more about the Bookshop Podcast, go to thebookshoppodcastcom and make sure to subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to the show. You can also follow me at MandyJacksonBeverly on X, Instagram and Facebook and on YouTube at the Bookshop Podcast. If you have a favorite indie bookshop that you'd like to suggest we have on the podcast, I'd love to hear from you via the contact form at TheBookshopPodcastcom. The Bookshop Podcast is written and produced by me, Mandy Jackson-Beverly, Theme music provided by Brian Beverly, executive assistant to Mandy, Adrienne Otterhahn, and graphic design by Frances Perala. Thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.